Thursday, May 10, 2007

THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN - SEASON 3, EPISODE 20 (POST 2)









Here is your friendly neighborhood lag alleviation post so you don't have to wait so long for the comments to load. Don't forget to read up on the comments from the last post to catch up on the latest discussions.

423 comments:

1 – 200 of 423   Newer›   Newest»
TheBookPolice said...

from old thread:

acewebguy: He was forced to when Locke said it in front of all of the Others.

Yep. I knew it as soon as I heard Locke say it. It's a familiar concept in my line of work. In the prison world, we call that "putting you out on Front Street." It is usually discouraged as felons have a lot of pride and anger, and fronting them out in front of their peers (or people who look up to them) can often result in a less-than-pleasant outcome for the front-er. Locke knows what I'm talkin' about.

scoutpost said...

Absolutely- That was a brilliant play by Locke, which is why Locke was so enjoyable last night...er up to the point where he got shot.

ib4uc said...

black_rock said... i still think if Locke was smart he would have got Jack to put his Kidney back in

Too funny!!!

scoutpost said...

Ugh all these theories rattling around in my brain- trying to hash them out and make them work- it's exhausting!

bigdog said...

rousseau would have been on the island after Ben got there. so did he take alex. if so rousseau is telling the truth.

Jacob has to have been seen by someone other than ben. if not locke is correct that his people are stupid. juliet looked geniuenly in awe when ben said jacob took care of her sister.

scoutpost said...

Hey TBP-
It's a familiar concept in my line of work. In the prison world, we call that "putting you out on Front Street."

What is your line of work?

ib4uc said...

scoutpost... It was good to see the old Locke back, and yet, he seemed more determined (I think that's the word I'm looking for). He was going to call Ben out on everything to show the 'others' what a big, fat liar he is. Unfortunately, it might have been his undoing (I hope not).

TheBookPolice said...

scoutpost - Corrections. I'm a librarian.

ib4uc said...

Yeah TBP, what is your line of work? or are you speaking from experience? j/k

memphish said...

I guess Ben didn't decide to "kill" Locke until after he learned that Locke heard Jacob? That scene certainly seemed to be a passing of the torch (flashlight) from Ben who could hear Jacob when the light was low to Locke who could hear him in brighter light.

ib4uc said...

TBP... a librarian in a jail? So, that's where The Book Police comes in. Cool.

scoutpost said...

ib4uc said...TBP... a librarian in a jail? So, that's where The Book Police comes in. Cool.

Ditto. I bet that's an interesting job to say the least.

scoutpost said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TheBookPolice said...

ib4uc - Yep! My first thought when I submitted my resume for the job way back when was, "I'll be the book police!" It stuck.

And actually, it's a state prison. Minimum security, but still technically a prison.

scoutpost said...

thebookpolice said...And actually, it's a state prison. Minimum security, but still technically a prison.


Paris Hilton's sentiments exactly.

TheBookPolice said...

Heh.

Speaking of work, it's where I've got to go, and the dang filters are still in place and blocking Blogger sites. So I'm out for the next 10! I'll try to catch up later.

Good luck breaking this mother down.

scoutpost said...

Ok so my theory is that there are parallel universes going on- like explained in the Elegant Universe, and the island is a Brigadoon type place that acts at times as a portal between the universes- giving the appearance of the presence of a Hieronymous machine/box. Ok someone smart figure that out for me. My brain is still partially asleep- must get more caffeine.

scoutpost said...

Bye TBP! Catch you later- use your work time to come up with another relevatory theory for us.

capcom said...

Hi All! I am having a $#@&*%$# of a time getting online after installing new McAfee security package, so sorry if all this has been said an hour ago.

Right Scoutpost, instead of Tom drawing a line IN the sand, he drew a line OF sand. Heh-heh, OK, not too funny. :o)

Ange, no, I said last night that I will not accept voodoo in the story!! :o) But that is interesting what you said about it perhaps being crushed magnetic rock from the island. Remember the magnetic ore that could blow up the supersoldiers in the X-Files? Could be like that! Good thinking. And true Cattygirl, maybe it does keep him in!

Oo, Melissa, I like your time phase theory for Jacob. He could be floating in and out of our time, and sometimes he's invisible and sometimes not.

Yeah Maven, I had very weird dreams all night long. BTW< this avi is for your dad. XO And I bet that the jars are just filled with Jacob's homemade hootch! :o) Or they could be like Howard Hughes' jars, if you kow what I mean.

Bigdog said: "if his daughter gives you a gun and...when he takes you to a mass grave site you might not want to turn your back on him." Too true, haha!!! Locke is such a dope, he gets so involved with his big plans that he can't concentrate on what is going on around him! Not good at situational awareness at all!

OK, here's my theory on how Jcaob summons peeps, he appears to you as someone in your memory. that's why Richard was so excited when Li'l Ben told him that he saw his mother. That meant that Jacob was summoning Ben, and it was a sign. So, that does not explain why he may have summoned Jack by appearing to him as his dad, and then Jack was not on his list. So, I'm sure I'm wrong.

Also, good thinking Ace, for the reasont hat Richard helped Locke kill Cooper.

Great minds and thought today LoCos!!!

engineer27 said...

Wow. A new post already. I think that's a new record.

There was a bunch of discussion in the previous thread about Roger claiming to have just gotten back from "the plane" when the explosions and shooting started.

I believe he said "The Flame," as in the Flame Station.

Might make more sense with that correction.

TheBookPolice said...

Oh hey, skimming Doc's column quickly reminded me of a question someone asked on the old thread about DHARMA having a plane. I'm pretty sure Roger was saying that they were just "coming back from the Flame."

For what it's worth.

Now I'm really out.

TheBookPolice said...

Crap! engineer27, with the fingers of lightning.

scoutpost said...

capcom said...OK, here's my theory on how Jcaob summons peeps, he appears to you as someone in your memory. that's why Richard was so excited when Li'l Ben told him that he saw his mother. That meant that Jacob was summoning Ben, and it was a sign. So, that does not explain why he may have summoned Jack by appearing to him as his dad, and then Jack was not on his list. So, I'm sure I'm wrong.


Well even if you're wrong- I still like it. :) Maybe that is the way Jacob communicates or summons people, but old Smokey knows this and runs interference by deceiving people. So Smokey could be a security system to keep people away from Jacob(?) This makes no sense- seriously, I need more caffeine.

engineer27 said...

GOTCHA!

Ange said...

Okay scenario:

Based on what acewebguy said in the last thread...the natives age, but slower, but maybe some of their body organs degenerate. IE the uterus. So Alpert, knowing this, stumbles on a child (Ben) who he realizes he can assimiate into the native camp.

Why? Well maybe they have no children and can't have any, so it is a way to adopt an heir so to speak. It might explain how Ben is allowed to carry on his childbirth project (Which Alpert alludes to being a side project when talking to Locke), and also why Ben thinks he is on control. He is in control of his birth project, but really not much else.

I wouldn't be surprised if next week we learn that "The Purge" didn't include children, and that the natives have them elsewhere.

capcom said...

Here's another theory that just burped in my head: Jacob is in a "something" state, and Ben likes him there, it keeps him limited in some way, even though he does have some control. If Jacob asked Locke to help him, maybe that means there's a way for Jacob to get out of this "state" and raise some heck with Ben. So, Ben has to kill Locke, to keep him from helping Jacob in getting "released" from whatever is keeping him at bay.

scoutpost said...

ange said...I wouldn't be surprised if next week we learn that "The Purge" didn't include children, and that the natives have them elsewhere.

That is a good possibility considering what we know about how they treat children, etc. Guess maybe that's how we explain Karl- born on island maybe before the Purge so his mom wasn't affected like the women are now.

capcom said...

Re: previous post....and this would also support the voodoo substance laid down as all a part keeping him confined for Ben. Maybe. :-)

scoutpost said...

capcom- I just viewed your avatar- sooo funny!

capcom said...

Thanks Scoutpost. I had Maven's dad in mind when making it, cuz she said that he wrote for the Smos Bros.

engineer27 said...

Back in The Lost Exerience... Rachel Blake aka Persephone asked, "What happened to all those scientists?"

I guess we difinitively know what happened to them now, or at least most of them.

I hope she had time to watch Lost this season, what with all her new duties working for Daddy.

Ange said...

ROFL capcom... getiing cozy with voodoo theories? Zombies, and circles, and voodoo oh my!

I like your theory though about Jacob being in a "something" state, and Ben liking it that way.

scoutpost said...

Doc Jensen article is up.

capcom said...

Too true Engineer! Good memory.

capcom said...

Yeah, Ange, I guess I'm warming up to your voodoo theory! :-D

Ange said...

HA capcom! Not my voodoo theory;). I think that would be more of a Fenris entity. I just thought that the ash/sand/magnet powder/whatever circle reminded me of voodoo or wiccian circles of protection...hehehe (like in the movie Skeleton Key). Although if it is voodoo, then yeah I will own that one;).

shellma said...

WHEWWWW!!! 1 1/2 hours to catch up on the last thread and this one!! Hi everybody.

Man, I don't know what to think. I LOVED it though!!!!
Things I'm pretty sure of:
1. Locke won't die.
2. The stuff around Jacob's hut is to keep him in.
Oh! And I KNEW there were 2 groups of non-815ers!

capcom said...

Right, maybe Fenris is the one who started the Voodoo Theory. With his zombies and all. :-)

shellma said...

Hey, can someone tell me how to find those screencaps of darkufo's? I can't remember.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I'm bring this post over from the last one since it was the last post. Oh and TBP I agree it's spelled Horace I'm just not as good at spelling as I was when I was a kid. Use it or lose it. ;)Okay I'm back and pretty much caught up.
ange
Those are great questions about the plane it could be any of those.
I seen the red jars in the window and went straight for the morbid again and thought it was blood. I missed the dog painting I'll have to go check it out at Dark UFO thanks.
cattygirl
I like the idea that the black powder ring is to keep Jacob in.
bigdog
Never thought of valcano ash. I went straight for the morbid on that one too (crushed bones). Locke figured what Ben was up to about a split second to late you can see him going for his weapon just before Ben shoots him.
TBP
I see you caught Ben saying he was one of the people smart enough to make sure he didn't end up in that ditch. So how many of the "others" are left over Dharma and how many are native/hostiles?
The natives don't seem to be to primative to me even though Jacob doesn't like technology. They had weapons and gas and seem to have them when Ben was a boy.
Dennis
Thanks for removing the spoiler but I already read it last night, but you never know about those kind of things they can go either way and aren't always correct. Time will tell.

Sayid'sgirl said...

TBP Oh I spelled Horice.

capcom said...

Hi Shelma! Go to DarkUFO site (www.darkufo.blogspot.com) and click on the screencaps tab up at the top.

scoutpost said...

hellma- here's those screencaps.
DarkUfo screencaps

scoutpost said...

Oops- I'm using Dennis' TLC helper and I guess I didn't get the "S" in the copy- that should've been Shellma- not "hellma" LOL. So sorry.

capcom said...

Eww, Horace was that stretchmeister-liver-eating-Toomey on the X-Files!!! I can't look at that guy ever since. :-p

ib4uc said...

engineer27 said... Back in The Lost Exerience... Rachel Blake aka Persephone asked, "What happened to all those scientists?"

Not that it matters but if Dharma is nonexistant after the purge (except for Ben) and the others were pretending to be Dharma to continue receiving food/supplies, how would Rachel Blake know that something happened to the Dharma scientists? Unless she meant that they went to the island and no one heard from them again because they were on some top secret mission.

capcom said...

That sounds reasonable IB4UC!

Ange said...

Capcom your avatar rocks BTW!

Lisa said...

Favorite Doc Jensen quote...
"pappy-killing man of faith to die"

Anyway.... anyone think that Roger Linus may have had a medical trade or more skilled trade prior to coming to the island? Is that why he was so disgruntled about being a "workman"? Was he led to believe that he'd be making medical (or other significant) contributions?

Maybe it doesn't matter... just wondering if the hippies "found" the young couple purposefully or accidentally?

Sayid'sgirl said...

ange
I agree. I mentioned the circle made me think of voodoo last night too.
Although knowing Fenris I'm sure he mentioned it long before anyone else did. ;)

scoutpost said...

Interesting DarkUfo has a screen cap of the painting of the Lady holding the hampster that was in Ben's house. Apparently it was hanging in his house when he was a boy- DarkUfo site uses this to confirm that it is a painting of Ben's mom- I guess that makes sense, but I wouldn't call it proof. Still, I guess we know now it's not a picture of Ben's dead wife/girlfriend.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Another thought. I was thinking the volcano is what happened to the four toed statue. The teacher said to the girl's question. That was a long time ago. Also maybe that's what caused the special properties of the island.

scoutpost said...

ib4uc said...engineer27 said... Back in The Lost Exerience... Rachel Blake aka Persephone asked, "What happened to all those scientists?"

Not that it matters but if Dharma is nonexistant after the purge (except for Ben) and the others were pretending to be Dharma to continue receiving food/supplies, how would Rachel Blake know that something happened to the Dharma scientists? Unless she meant that they went to the island and no one heard from them again because they were on some top secret mission.


I don't remember exactly what the video we saw was, but it did say that the Dharma scientists disappeared. Wonder why there was never a search? Wonder when they figured out that the Dharma scientists weren't operating anymore- because obviously as recently as 2004 we see the Losties and Others getting Dharma food drops. Since TLE was taking place in 2006, does that mean that whatever happens in the rest of the series, that no one still figures out that Ben killed the Scientists? What does that mean to the LOST storyline- do the Losties never get off the island? If rescue does come: Does the secret stay with Ben, the Hostiles, and/or Dead Locke?

capcom said...

Thaks Ange. :-)

capcom said...

Lisa said: "just wondering if the hippies "found" the young couple purposefully or accidentally?"

Good question! And the way Roger treated Li'l Ben, in my opinion, he was just a jerk, who probably expected more than he was promised and wasn't willing to work his way up from the bottom. But, that's just my jaded opinion about those mangy hippies. :-)

memphish said...

About the hippies, whether or not they stumbled on the post-birth Workmans by accident or not, the reality is they kept in touch/tabs on Ben and Roger so that approx. 10 years later they could bring them to the Island.

memphish said...

My favorite idea about Jacob right now is that he's so old that he has a hard time materializing like Mrs. Which in A Wrinkle in Time.

Ange, what ages are your school-kids? My almost 8-year-old is loving WIT so far. It's also got a clear case of Light vs. Dark going on like Locke talked about way back in The Pilot Part II.

memphish said...

Alpert and Ben both acted surprised that the tape recorder was missing and Ben was going to ask Tom about it next. Did Tom give the tape recorder to Locke?

Ange said...

Oh my gosh Memphish...that is a great observation about Mrs. Which and Jacob.

I teach 6th grade (still elementary school here) so the ages range from 10-12ish. They are at that weird self-centered phase where unless a book talks about bodily functions or people doing naughty things they, "Don't get it," heh. I try though. WIT is the next read-aloud, starting next week.

capcom said...

Wow, good Q Memphish about Tom giving the recorder to Locke. He looked pretty aloof when Ben asked him for help with Locke. It seems as if he doesn't like Ben much about right now. He might be helping Locke and Jack in more ways than we know.

Sayid'sgirl said...

memphish
I was thinking maybe Ben was going to send Tom after Locke to get the recorder back. Tom seems to be his errand boy.
But I like the idea that Tom may have given the recorder Locke. They showed us he is probably against Ben when he warned Jack that the room was monitored when he went in to talk to Kate.
Also someone mentioned that they thought Danielle brought Jack the dynamite I tend to believe that.

capcom said...

I would SO love that if Jack and Danielle are planning some kabooms against the Others together! Yeah!

Sayid'sgirl said...

TBP said
That Roger said they were driving back from the Flame not the plane. Listening to it again he may be right. But the circumstances seemed very familiar to TOTC when flight 815 crashed. The ground shaking from the low fly over of the plane then the explotion if not from the hostiles attacking then maybe from a crash.
I wonder how long the hostiles and Dharma had been fighting and what started it?

Sayid'sgirl said...

capcom
Oh me too. I'm sure she wants her daughter back even if she doesn't know how to go about it.

memphish said...

Sayid's Girl, I agree that the shaking reminded me of the Flight 815 crash as well. Maybe Smokey hitting the sonic fence created the shaking, but we didn't see that when Juliet and Kate watched.

Where did Ben, Alpert, Tom and the current Others get their J. Crew clothes? Dharma seemed to wear nothing but jumpsuits though I did catch some Tie Dye under one of Horace's.

Dennis said...

luckyguylikeme said... How old is present day Ben supposed to be, if Alpert is that much older than him?

Tim said... I don't think the Alpert thing is an actor/makeup thing, there's just no way they could be that grossly negligent! I guess it's remotely feasible that Alpert is actually older than Ben (in a normal fashion), but it just doesn't seem right.

In real life, Richard is 39, Ben is 51, Locke is 54, and Tom is about 60.



Tim said... So... did Ben "purge" his girlfriend?

memphish said... Is Ben so bad that he killed his own little girlfriend?

BEN: I was one of the people smart enought to make sure that I didn't end up in that ditch.
Which makes me considerably smarter than you John.


I think either she had died before the purge (pregnancy?), or she was one of the smart people. Ben a bad guy, but he can't be that bad? I understand him killing his father...

memphish said...

I had an idea about why Kate's not on Jacob's list and I can't remember if I shared it yet or not. Kate used the alias Annie in Australia. Maybe that was her unforgivable error, invoking the name of Ben's doll carving "friend" rather than blowing up her dad. I wonder if the Others know it's her dad and not just her step-dad. That might have something to do with it too.

Dennis said...

memphish said... I'm just stunned about the ending. We've never seen anyone heal from a gunshot. I thought Ben would hit him again to make sure though.

In addition to Sayid getting shot by Mikhail, Sawyer was also shot on the raft.

BTW, Ben looked very shocked by what Jacob said.



chucklez3 said... please no. no invisible people. dear god. yet purgatory would be "hard to believe"???? come on people. invisible men, telekinesis, time-travel.... but purgatory.....NOOOOOOO......that's just "retarded"?? hahaha.... eh. it's MY dream!! hahaha.

Purgatory would be very easy to believe, except for the small little fact that TPTB have consistantly said IT IS NOT PUGATORY. With most things, they leave a lot of wiggle room - but not this.



memphish said... And Jack is still dumb in my book. Why does he trust Juliet instead of his "friends" to come up with a plan? Why dumba@@ Jack? Why?

I think it all goes back to Jack thinking he needs to rescue everyone. Juliet does know how the other operate. Sayid couldn't even guard a sailboat. :)

Dennis said...

memphish said... As for the thick gray sandy stuff, I thought maybe it was a Smokey conduit. I'm not good with mechanical stuff though, so don't go by me.

Smokey poop?


maven said... Ben had an explanation for his hand shaking (Jacob will be angry).

He had an explanation, but I'm not buying it. He admitted to lying later - John just figured out Ben's "tell". Haven't we seen Ben's hands shaking before? Was he lying then too?


maven said... Ben was always the master manipulator, planning with Alpert and the Hostiles against the DI.

I think Ben was manipulated here. He didn't organize the purge, he was just thier inside man.


InEnglandAndLost said... I don't get this not ageing thing. Surely one would have to age to reach the point of non-aging. Does that make sense?

I don't get it either. Obviously we know for sure that Ben and Alex have aged on the island.

Unless only certain people don't age. Maybe Richard is still the same as as he was when he arrived on the island, and anyone else that has found the "fountan of youth" are frozen in age, but Ben grew up with Dharma, and maybe hasn't aged since?

Dennis said...

Tim said... I wish they'd add a quote function to the blogger comments.

You should try the TLC Helper program that I wrote. It makes adding Bold, Italics, Links, and Quotes much easier.

For quotes, just copy someones entire comment, then hit the quote button, and it will auto-format it.


scoutpost said... BTW- Dennis- using your handy TLC helper. I like it!

Yea! I should send you a prize :)

memphish said...

Scoutpost -- hold out for that new TV Dennis just won.

Thanks for the Sayid gunshot memory Dennis. I noticed his little bandaid on it last week. I forgot to look this week.

But as for the original statement, I'll rephrase -- we've never seen anyone get hit by a gunshot in the gut and live. Now we have seen a punctured lung heal and someone earlier made a point about the bullet going through being the difference, but frankly that is so Heroes.

Lisa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
memphish said...

And as for the whole Jack trusting Juliet, I guess the LOSTies need to brand one another to regain Jack's trust? Seriously, what has Juliet done to prove to Jack that her loyalties have shifted? She told Jack what she was doing only after she had done what Ben wanted her to do.

Lisa said...

capcom said...
I would SO love that if Jack and Danielle are planning some kabooms against the Others together! Yeah!


Yep, yep!! I'm with you!!!

memphish said...

They have a "clear" picture of Jacob up at The Tail Section.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Dennis
I'm sorry but I have to defend Sayid. Of course he's not perfect no one is but...
It's hard to plan for all contengencies when you don't know all the vaiables. Such as the others having a sub.
Even a good plan can go wrong in this case.

and LOL Smokey poop

memphish said...

Maybe the gray stuff was where Ben took all the rabbit poop over the years, and it faded over time and made that nice little trail--a bunny trail for Peter Cottontail. :)

bigdog said...

Sayids girl never should you apologize for defending sayid...

Wow that pic of jacob does look a lot like locke. and i am one of the people who do not believe that jacob is locke.

maven said...

Getting caught up (again!).

Thanks, Capcom, for the Smothers Brothers avatar. It's so sweet that you remembered my Dad wrote for them!

BBL

Dennis said...

memphish said... We've never seen anyone get hit by a gunshot in the gut and live. Now we have seen a punctured lung heal and someone earlier made a point about the bullet going through being the difference, but frankly that is so Heroes.

ITPP, Maven said that maybe Locke was shot in the spot where his kidney was taken for Daddy, so there would be no vital organs hit.

(ITPP = In The Previous Post)



The LOST ratings are in for last night:

LOST was #4 (7.2/12) for the night, behind AI, CSI:NY, and Criminal Minds - and #2 among adults 18-49 (4.9).

Dennis said...

Sayid'sgirl said... Dennis I'm sorry but I have to defend Sayid. Of course he's not perfect no one is but... It's hard to plan for all contengencies when you don't know all the vaiables. Such as the others having a sub. Even a good plan can go wrong in this case.

That's my point -- she knows the others better than Sayid or any of the Losties. Jack still thinks he is the leader, so he could get everyones ideas on how to fight the others, but that would take too long. But Jack is arrogant to think that he should be making decisions like this all by himself.



bigdog said... Wow that pic of jacob does look a lot like locke. and i am one of the people who do not believe that jacob is locke.

I'm thinking it looks more like Dennis Hopper...

scoutpost said...

Catching back up on comments...
maven said...Scoutpost -- hold out for that new TV Dennis just won.


hehe Yeah Dennis, how about that?
Nah I couldn't be that mean.

But seriously people- the TLC Helper is really easy.

bigdog said...

dennis - loved him as victor drazen from 24.

scoutpost said...

I totally agree Dennis- it is Dennis Hopper! or maybe Pickett... LOL it's so hard to tell. I personally like being in the Locke camp.

scoutpost said...

Looks like Ben should've consulted Old Smokey- This headline from Yahoo news:
Scientists use nanotechnology to directly target cancer cells

maven said...

Reposting from May 9th, 9:17AM (from list of Memphish's for predictions:
Maven said: 2. I'm torn with this Jacob thing. If you follow the Wizard of Oz analogy, then Jacob is something Ben made up. But, Jacob can be a real person...maybe Locke!

I think it sounds like and looks like Locke. Now, if I can only explain it! LOL

bigdog said...

when mikhail said that naomi showed up, ben seemed surprised. or was he surprised that he was alive?

scoutpost said...

Wait a minute maven- I thought you were still holding onto Jacob= Christian Shepherd! j/k

Erich said...

It's later than I wanted it to be, but our post is up. Hopefully I can wade through the comments I've missed since last night...

Atomic Blowtorch: Lost – "The Man Behind the Curtain"

Erich said...

It's later than I wanted it to be, but our post is up. Hopefully I can wade through the comments I've missed since last night...

Atomic Blowtorch: Lost – "The Man Behind the Curtain"

Ange said...

Maven: Are you looping glimpses of the future?

scoutpost said...

I think Ben was super surprised to hear that someone new parachuted to the island. The question is, why was he so surprised? Because he was uninformed? Because he knows who it might be and is worried about what they might do? Or because he knows who it might be and he had been waiting for them? or Because since the purpling maybe he thought no one else could get there? I don't know.

scoutpost said...

J. Wood isn't up yet- but considering the lack of books to analyze in last night's epi, I wonder what he'll have to say? It'll probably be loaded with lots of philosophy. Still...can't wait to see what he has to say.

bigdog said...

i dont know much about flares, but why didnt anyone else but mikail see the flare?

Sayid'sgirl said...

ahhh! bad typing again.
That should say variables.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Wow I left to pick up my daughter at school and there's a dozen new posts.
Dennis
I apologize. I misunderstood you. Someone else back when that episode aired said they were disappointed in his skills. I thought this was what you were refering to.

capcom said...

Smokeypoop....OK, that's the winning post for the day! :o) Or, Smokey leaves trails like snails, heehee.

Maybe since Locke got shot in his right shoulder, where there isn't too much vital innards (unless it hit a part of his lung) to hit, he will survive. I bet we don't find out until Season 4!!!!!

Maybe waaaaaay back when, Jacob sent Smokey to retrieve Locke, when Smokey was pulling him down into the hole??? Locke sensed it was a good thing, ergo his pleas to Jack to let him go?

Maybe Ben was just reacting to the fact that it would be a very bad thing for a non-Mittlos personnel to be arriving at the island? That is, assuming that he knows (assuming it's true) that anyone can get on the island after the Purpling. I said assuming! :o)

capcom said...

To be honest Sayidsgirl, a lot of us said that, me too. It was just such a shock to see him fail for the first time! But I think that those of us who felt that way have cut him some slack since, cuz he is SO back to his old self. And you're right, his plan could have worked if there was no sub.

Erich said...

Anyone else think the discussion of the volcano, in the classroom scene, was a clue? Maybe Smokey's somehow related? or the volcano was the "deity" worshiped by the ancient society?

capcom said...

Wow, the Dennis Hopper thing....I can really see it. And he's got a dent in his nose in the same place as Jacob's, it seems. Way to go Dennis, if it is.

memphish said...

Erich, I was thinking last summer maybe the Others took Kate to sacrifice her to Smokey like in King Kong or something. At this point I'm not sure what I think anymore, I'm just ready for the next 2 weeks.

capcom said...

And they can conjure up the lava Smoke(y) any time they want Erich, like in the class? Even if not, that's a good thought. It seems TPTB would be showing that for a reason, there's no sense in showing a class on volcanos (rather than fertilization :-) if there was no reason to.

2costa said...

I am thinking that the island heals who it wants to heal and ages who it wants to age. To me its like Ben has no commune with the island, thats why he got cancer. He was faking the wheelchair stuff to look like he was in good with the island again to his people to make the whole why did ben have cancer question to be forrgotten. The made a point to show that there is a community wide pressure on Ben to let Locke meet jacob since the island healed him. I think its obvious richard could lead the others but doesnt cause he would rather be the shadow leader like cheney and bush. He gave ben enough of the island mythology to wow them, richard knows ben wasnt born on the island and .And thats why richard is like sixty at least and looks younger than Ben. I think that people like walt or locke or Rose for that matter are not aging. There is also the possibility of coning not to get all jango fett on you guys but maybe richard is just a clone that TPTB use to do their bidding. He seems like he is not aging but he is just a copy. I almost think that the powder is there to keep "jacob" contained in the cirlce much like the soonic fence does to the barracks. We are gonna see so
some more purge flashbacks and the finale reveal is supposed to shed some light on all of this

capcom said...

But Kate wasn't a virgin Memphish. :o) Don't they always throw a virgin into the mouth of the volcano?

Erich said...

It's crazy that Jacob is yet another white guy. So far none of the "hostiles" look like natives of a tropical island...where did they all come from and how do they relate to the ancient people?

2costa said...

but she does fit the kill your daddy test the island seems to like

2costa said...

they are native in the sense that they are descendants of the black rock survivors, much as the non indiginous people of austalia

Erich said...

So the Black Rock folks could have learned the secrets of the real natives...secrets of immortality where eventually your body disappears and all that's left is your disembodied voice?

capcom said...

You're right Erich, and they are in the South Pacific (assuming), they don't even look Polynesian. Do the theories about the island/continent of Mu (Lemuria) say anything about the people who polulated it? I read a book on it 100 years ago, so I can't remember. But, if they were thought to have populated the surrounding islands, you'd think that they looked "islandy" as well, because those people do.

2costa said...

the fact that bens mother dies at seven months and died just like all the woman on the island almost makes me think his mom concieved him on the island, maybe stepping out on the dad. maybe all that needs happen for tyher pregnancy to be messed up is to concieve on the island

memphish said...

2Costa I like your idea about who the Island heals. It's like what Isaac of Uluru said about there being certain places for certain people.

capcom said...

Descendants of the Black Rock? Could be. Would there be caucasian women on a slave ship? Depends, I guess. Unless the mix of the caucasian men and native women eventually become dominantly white-like. Richard's pretty dark, since he is latino. Maybe that's why they picked him (the actor).

Erich said...

Capcom: It can't be an oversight. They film in Hawaii, so they'd have access to Polynesian actors. It must go back to the Black Rock, but the 4 toed statue has to be older than the slave ship. Unless we're getting into weird time travel stuff.

capcom said...

No, I didn't think that it was an oversight at all. I'm just trying to figure out how they got that way, with all the possibilities. Sure, they could have picked a Hawaiian actor to play one of the indigenous ones, and I wonder why they didn't. I wonder if they will in the future? If there are any indigenous four-toed peeps left on the island that is. And, if there are, will they have to wear rubber hobbit-feet with four toes??? :o)

Sayid'sgirl said...

erich
yeah I think it was some kind of clue or they wouldn't have made of point of metioning it. I mentioned that maybe the volcano was what happened to the people who built the four toed statue and maybe it caused the special properties of the island. Also in hte screen cap at Dark UFO the heading on the blackboard is Be Nice to Mother Earth. What does that have to do with discussing volcanos?

Erich said...

Capcom: Sorry. I wasn't suggesting you thought it was an oversight. I'm trying to figure it out, too. It's obviously important. Lost has made such a big deal about having a multicultural cast.

Hmmm. Well, gotta run.

Darkaardvark said...

Thoughts while rewatching the episode:

There's a great line that I think most of us probably missed, it was just background:
Hurley: "Dude, be honest. It can't worse than haggis"
Desmond: "I could go for some haggis right now."

Patch says Naomi said they were 130 klicks west of them. But Naomi said 18 kilometers. The island can't be that big, can it?

So the "can't leave the island after coming" theory is busted, right? Richard was on-island during the purge, off-island during the crash of flight 815, on-island now.

What's with the teacher? Water + bicarbonate isn't the reaction, it's vinegar + bicarbonate. Why is she lying? Also, Annie: "Is that what happened to the volcano on this island?" The teacher says "Exactly, Annie." But volcanic explosions aren't baking soda and vinegar. It just looks like it. So she's feeding them untruths.

Why didn't Ben move when the alarms for a hostile incursion went off?

I think Roger said "driving back from the Flame" but closed captioning says Plane. Of course, it's not a script so it can be just as inaccurate as anything we come up with.

The scene where Ben removes Roger's shoes reminds me a lot of Kate and Wayne... and their stories end up the same, too.

Sun's really annoying: "But it's Jack. He would never do anything to hurt us!" *rolls eyes*

"It's crazy that Jacob is yet another white guy. So far none of the "hostiles" look like natives of a tropical island...where did they all come from and how do they relate to the ancient people?" IMHO there either were no *real* natives to the island, or they were all killed off. But the others do have some cultural diversity among them, so it's not fair to say they are all white.

Ben is mean! Testing his bunny to see if it dies. Rabbits definitely have some significance to this show.

So much to take in! I'll post the rest of my thoughts when I watch the rest of the episode.

maven said...

Ange said: Maven: Are you looping glimpses of the future?
As much as I hate the time loop theory, yes!

Scoutpost said: Wait a minute maven- I thought you were still holding onto Jacob= Christian Shepherd! j/k
I gave that one up a while ago! LOL I guess I'm a fair weather theorist.

Scoutpost also said: I think Ben was super surprised to hear that someone new parachuted to the island.
I think Ben is freaking out that his overall plan is unraveling. The Penny/Desmond stuff was an unexpected wrinkle and unplanned for (remember Juliet's strange glance at Desmond on the beach).

Ange said...

2costa said...the fact that bens mother dies at seven months and died just like all the woman on the island almost makes me think his mom concieved him on the island

That is entirely possible, and also would maybe explain why the hippy couple were so keen on getting Ben and Roger to the island. Also, you beg a good point about Roger maybe not even being his father. That's gotta tick a guy off, and maybe cause you to blame the child for killing the mother.

It would also explain why Ben saw his mother (or her likeness) on the island. Going on the assumption that his vision of her was Smokey and that Smokey can manifest as people who have been/are still on the island.

Carissa said...

Did a search to see if anyone had mentioned this and I didn't find anythihg, so I'm sorry if I'm bringing up something already said...

Could Ben have had a child with Annie and she died because of the infertility thing? That would explain two things to me: 1)Why he's so adamant about curing the infertility and 2)Why he might go over to the hostile side so easily. Maybe Annie dying set him off of Dharma. The only reason I hypothesize all this is that it would seem extremely odd for Ben just to off his little girlfriend with everyone else. And since they did not show us her body (which would be great to do in good storytelling) I think she's not there, i.e. dead somehow.

Carissa said...

Darkaardvark, I got the idea that the rabbits were Dharma test subjects. I think they're still using the rabbits as test subjects (as evidenced from the numbered one in the episode where Sawyer was "implanted"). Therefore, I felt that Ben wasn't using his own rabbit (we never saw it before that scene) but had taken a Dharma one to test the fence. Makes you think what kind of worldview Ben was getting with Dharma; he had no qualms about using a rabbit to test the fence because they used rabbits to test other things anyway.

memphish said...

Maven said: The Penny/Desmond stuff was an unexpected wrinkle and unplanned for (remember Juliet's strange glance at Desmond on the beach). Good point Maven. And remember how freaked Ben was that the LOSTies had a sailboat and he didn't know where it came from. I'm finally starting to believe that Ben is not as omniscient as he's seemed. I'm still not sure that Ben knows Desmond is at the LOSTies camp at all. At least Juliet didn't blab that on the tape. Score 1 for Juliet. (Never thought y'all would see me say that I bet.)

Carissa asked: Could Ben have had a child with Annie and she died because of the infertility thing? It could be Carissa, but it was clear that the desire to get away from his dad and by extension this community his dad had stuck him in clearly predated any such pregnancy instance.

And here's a question, if Ben could be patient for 10 or so years in waiting to join the Hostiles, why all the urgency with the LOSTies? Has he lost his patience as well as his faith?

memphish said...

DarkAardvark your post cracked me up. Why is the teacher lying about the volcano demonstration indeed!

As for the distance of Naomi's ship, Kate said 80 miles to Jack and Juliet. I think give Patchy's 130 km that Naomi must have said 80 instead of 18 too, but it sounded like 18 to my Alabama-born ears. Someone on another board said that Patchy wasn't there when Naomi told the LOSTies about the ship. I haven't confirmed this, but if it's true, how does Patchy know where Naomi's ship is?

maven said...

Hey, Memphish: Have we settled on Watership Down for the first book? I just got it from the library and I'm reading it now.

memphish said...

Boy Alpert is really the big mystery now isn't he. I even saw some recap, TV Squad I think that said people were saying Jacob is Alpert.

Why the non-aging? Can he move back and forth from Island to real world? Is he really a doctor (as they said in Not in Portland) or did he fake it like TWM? And how do you get your eyes to look like that? Not to mention the toe question.

I think Alpert is twin son of Cleopatra and Mark Antony which would explain both the heiroglyphics in the Swan Hatch and the eyeliner.

memphish said...

Maven, We'll need an official ruling from Melissa_lossa, TLC book club chairwoman. But it's fine with me. I'd suggest that as we read we all take notes on things that strike us so that we can chat effectively later. I think the next 2 episodes are going to keep us going into June probably.

maven said...

Memphish said: I think Alpert is twin son of Cleopatra and Mark Antony which would explain both the heiroglyphics in the Swan Hatch and the eyeliner.
ROFLMAO! I guess black eyeliner is a secret anti-aging potion!

Seriously...Alpert is getting to be a pretty intriguing character. Was he grooming Ben all along. Did he and the original islanders (most likely descendants of Black Rock crew) see Ben as sort of a messiah because of his ability to see his mother? The whole Purge thing seems very cultish ala Jim Jones/Guyana kool-aid thing. Can't really explain the aging dilemma with Alpert unless he's a time traveler.

Carissa said...

memphish said And here's a question, if Ben could be patient for 10 or so years in waiting to join the Hostiles, why all the urgency with the LOSTies? Has he lost his patience as well as his faith?

Excellent point! Maybe he's getting fed up with the island he's been stuck on. Or maybe it's also because he's losing control. I think he might see his power slipping away (which would explain shooting Locke. He comes back and says, "Jacob killed Locke so Locke ain't your Messiah.) Which just reminds me why Ben intrigues me but I DON'T like him!

maven said...

Memphish said: And here's a question, if Ben could be patient for 10 or so years in waiting to join the Hostiles, why all the urgency with the LOSTies? Has he lost his patience as well as his faith?

Agreeing with Carissa, too, that Ben is seeing things unraveling and he is losing control of "his people". You have Locke, who his people maybe see as either the true messiah or another one. He's got to get rid of him. The Penny/Desmond thread came out of the blue for him...an unforeseen problem. The outside world is closing in on him. He might have been patient before (listening to Mom), but things are spiraling out of control too fast.

2costa said...

i think part of the rabbit thing is the iront of the saying,"the rabbit done died". If i remember this right before they had the technology for pregnancy test they would inject a rabbit with a womans urine or blood i dont recall and if the pregnancy hormones were there the rabbit would die. Fitting for all the problems ben had and the island...

2costa said...

irony

2costa said...

i remember a m.a.s.h where they were trying to get a rabbit to see if hotlips was pregnant

memphish said...

2costa, as soon as read the rabbit pregnancy test I thought MASH too.

Ange said...

Wasn't it Radar's pet too, and they had to remove it's glands or something so it wouldn't really die?

Carissa said...

LOL! MASH came to my mind, too! Funny we get our medical knowledge from an old TV show! LOL!

Carissa said...

Yep. Radar's rabbit lived, but was now sterile, so then the female rabbit and his pet male rabbit could live together. LOL! Can you tell I'm a MASH fan, too?

maven said...

Hey, Memphish: We can get all the MASH rabbit scoop from Ken!

When I first saw the rabbit, I thought of Alice In Wonderland and following the White Rabbit down the hole.

maven said...

BTW: Is anyone else having a problem getting on Sledgeweb's site today?

ib4uc said...

Just checking in. Really good discussions going on (especially M*A*S*H -- I love that show!)

maven... I've tried Sledgeweb several times today with no luck. I guess it's overloaded because everyone is trying also.

ib4uc said...

I think Ben has gotten in way over his head. His lies are catching up to him and the other 'others' are starting to doubt him.

OK, so we saw and heard Jacob. One mystery solved but more arose from this. What the heck is it?!?!?! I know, stupid question, but I wish I knew...

scoutpost said...

memphish said...I think Alpert is twin son of Cleopatra and Mark Antony which would explain both the heiroglyphics in the Swan Hatch and the eyeliner.


LOL that's a good one memphish!

re: why the natives don't look Polynesian-
You're assuming the island is in the South Pacific. We've never actually had confirmation of that have we? Of course we know Naomi's ship is somewhere near there, and that she went off of Penny's directions, but TPTB have never confirmed that.

maven said...Seriously...Alpert is getting to be a pretty intriguing character. Was he grooming Ben all along. Did he and the original islanders (most likely descendants of Black Rock crew) see Ben as sort of a messiah because of his ability to see his mother?

See that is what I was wondering earlier. And now that Ben has cancer, are they wondering if they were mistaken and now looking to Locke? Then like Carissa says, Ben kills Locke, blames it on Jacob, and maintains the whole illusion of the magnificent but vengeful Jacob. It is rather cultlike. I wonder if they have some kind of ancient documents or something that prophecies a chosen one type.

ange said...2costa said...the fact that bens mother dies at seven months and died just like all the woman on the island almost makes me think his mom concieved him on the island

That is entirely possible, and also would maybe explain why the hippy couple were so keen on getting Ben and Roger to the island. Also, you beg a good point about Roger maybe not even being his father. That's gotta tick a guy off, and maybe cause you to blame the child for killing the mother.


Well and this also feeds into the whole other question of Lostie father issues- Kate's real dad was not who she thought it was, Jin's may not be, Locke's delusional mom says he was immaculately conceived, etc.- anyway- it would continue in that vein. Do I dare bring up parthenogenesis again? Where's barbarajay- she's always up for a good parthenogenesis convo.

And re: M*A*S*H- we own the first 4 seasons on DVD!

ib4uc said...

What about Kelvin? Is he original Dharma (at the island prior to the purge) or is he an other? I think we got more of a time line last night about when the purge happened. Just kinda curious -- does he play a bigger part in this? I just thinking out loud and probably doesn't mean too much anyway.

Ange said...

ib4uc: Kelvin came to the island after the Gulf war in the 90's. How would that work out in the time frame of the purge?

maven said...

Re timelining the Purge: Well, Ben came to island when he was about 10. If DI was in the 70's, that would make Ben about 40ish(?) in 2004. But it was hard to determine how old he was when he killed Daddy and gassed Othertown (must have been Dharmatown then). He had more hair, didn't he? How long did he wait until it was the right time? I just have a gut feeling it wasn't so long about...maybe when he was 30, which would make it around 1990. If the Hostiles were pretending they were still the DI, and food drops, etc. continued as well as recruitment for new people, then Kelvin could have come to the Swan (which the Hostiles seemed to know very little about) after the Gulf War. That would make it either right after the purge or about the same time.

maven said...

Now, according to the TLE Timeline, the last time the DI scientists were seen was in 1976 (according to a Rachel Blake video). Ben would have been young Ben then. Things just don't seem to jive here.

Ange said...

From the episode screen caps of Trisha Tinaka is Dead (Dark UFO) Here lies the body of Roger Work Man

Is that how Hurley et al found him in the VW? And also, that is not how Ben left his father's body is it?

Sayid'sgirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sayid'sgirl said...

Hey I found a quotes page for Abrose Bierce (An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge) and this was on it. Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum (I think that I think, therefore I think that I am.) That was on the Blast Door Map right.

capcom said...

From way back up there in the posts: That's OK Erich, I knew what you meant. Your thoughts about the natives actually sent my thoughts off into a particular track about it too. Thanks. :o) And yep Scoutpost, we were definitely assuming. :-)

I was thinking that too Ange and Sayidsgirl, about the van and Roger. Didn’t Hurley and Co. push the van up to the edge? Maybe the van sort of rolled back after Ben got out.

capcom said...

Maybe the teacher is putting water into Alka Seltzer tabs in the volcano? I don't get it either. It also sounds like she says, "So! Let's get ourselves an erection", every time I watch it!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Yeah I deleted my post cause I was double guessing myself and thought I was wrong. But I checked lost media and that pic was after they took him out of the VW and sat up against it. When the took him out his head fell off.

Ange said...

When you make a model volcano you use baking soda and vinegar. The baking soda is sometimes wrapped in tissue and suspended over a container of vinegar. You can pour water in there to weaken the tissue and make the soda fall into the vinegar. That is one way to do it at least.

capcom said...

The island might get natural tremors too, so it could have rolled back and tipped over. Until TPTB tell us the story of how it got back down the road there. :o)

capcom said...

That might be what she did Ange, thanks. I'll file that info away for summertime with the nephews!

Sayid'sgirl said...

capcom
LOL I didn't actually think she said erection but it did make me think of it. Just the perky way she said it I guess.

Ange said...

Okay...in the answers section on Dark UFO This makes more sense

Darkaardvark said...

"Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum (I think that I think, therefore I think that I am.) That was on the Blast Door Map right."

I believe it said "Cogito ergo doleo" , I think therefore I am depressed, rather than your version, though I've heard that one before too and I like it.

capcom said...

WOW! That image was a shocker! LOL! I wonder why there is no blood on his shirt from the facial hemmoraging. Guess they forgot to put it on.

Now, to throw more wood into the fire, do Adam and Eve have anything to do with this episode, or the events therein?! Probably not.

Speaking of wood, is J.Wood ready yet? I'll go check.

capcom said...

I like "I think that I think"! I'm going to make that one of my mottos. :o) But there is definitely Cogito Ergo Doleo. My brother and I cracked up about that one. I can't remember if there is another Cogito on there.

Amused2bHere said...

Here's a thought: Jacob is Smokey.

I don't know how to support that theory, but something tells me the holy heck that went on in the love shack was a manifestation of Smokey. Has anyone tried to shine a light into Smokey? I don't think so...

Going to send this happy thought to Passafist and Goog.

One More Thing: Volcanic ash! I thought so immediately, especially given the class on volcanoes we'd just seen (really, water and bicarbonate? They ran out of Dharma vinegar? LOL)

Sayid'sgirl said...

darkaardvark
Thanks. I thought I'd found another link through the books. Maybe Radzinsky was reading his book while writing on the door.
Ah well.

TheBookPolice said...

Nowhere near caught up, but...

sayid'sgirl: The ground shaking from the low fly over of the plane then the explotion if not from the hostiles attacking then maybe from a crash.

True, it sounded a little like a plane (it wasn't my first thought, but I thought it). My first thought was mortar fire. Of course, how and why would the Hostiles have artillery?

maven said...

Wasn't everything shaking in Juliet's cottage during the Book Club Meeting and then they all ran out? That shaking was very similar to the classroom shaking. Having skirmishes with the Hostiles couldn't cause that, could it?

Sayid'sgirl said...

TBP
That's what I'm wondering, for a supposedly primitive people where are they getting their weapons? I'm starting to think they're not primitive at all. Just how many people are running around on this island anyway? :)
Going back to Horace's and Roger's conversation "we hear this huge explosion next thing I know there's a siren wailing. If it was some type of explosion was the siren signaling a blast door lockdown?

LostIt said...

SOmeone speculated that the rabbit used to test the fence waasn't Ben's pet, but didn't we see Ben stroking a rabbit in his room one time when his father was in the ohter room raging? I think it was his pet.

LostIt said...

The grey powder reminded me of valocanic ash as well espeically considering the volcano class. Also, I got the impression that it was there to kee Jacob contained.

It occurred to me that Jacob could be Smokey or at least controls Smokey.

Alpert actually looks younger "now" than he did when Ben was a boy.

TheBookPolice said...

sayid'sgirl - I'm not sure we're supposed to think they're primitive, necessarily. They've been portrayed as "the natives" and "the original inhabitants of the Island." They put forward an image of rural-ness or poverty, but I don't know that primitivity is a characteristic we've been led to accept.

That being said, if the Island is as inaccessible as we've also been led to believe, it doesn't seem likely that they'd have....

I'm stopping this thought right now, because it just struck me that there's one very likely source for artillery on the Island.

The Black Rock.

payneofmind said...

I think that Jacob and Smokey could be one in the same.

As for Richard's lack of aging, in one of the Hanso Foundation film strips, it lists that Station 6: Initiative Classifications includes as one of its goals as "Cryogenics and Cellular Stasis". There are a number of references to human evolution, and this is one of it's facets.

Perhaps Jacob has evolved to another stage of human existence and only certain people can perceive him? I also like the idea that he is on a parallel time line and can only shift back and forth under certain circumstances. Ben is using this against Jacob, hence Jacob needs Locke's help.

Ben took Locke to see Jacob assuming that Locke would see nothing. They would return to the Others' camp, Locke would say that Jacob did not exist, and the Others would lose faith in Locke because they "know" that Jacob is real.

This plan went to shit when Locke heard Jacob's plea for help.

LostIt said...

I heard an interesting quote on ER attributed to Einstein:

"Reality is nothing more than a persistent illusion"

I thought it fit with the LOST mythology - even more so if Einstein really said it.

scoutpost said...

It's late and I really need to be in bed, but instead I've been looking up pictures of TOQ in profile so I can compare to the Jacob pics. Here's what I've found:

Jacob

John Locke

John Locke again

Dunno, the noses look too different to me. Unless they put makeup/prosthetic on Locke to throw it off. Dennis Hopper looks like a closer match than Terry O'Quinn. So I wonder who that is, and do we already know him as another character?

DeDJeZTeR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeDJeZTeR said...

Another thing just occurred to me. In the very beginning of the episode when Ben is sitting in his tent just after Richard enters, he mentions his Birthday and slyly says to Richard “You still remember birthdays don’t you?”

Is this Ben eluding to the fact that Mr. Alpert indeed does not age and is far more old than we think he is.... hmmmm???

Also I am almost certain now that the Incident happened while the Hostile’s were attacking the day that Young Ben was in class. It is a rumble and then an explosion. Not like the plane crash, but more like what you might feel on the other side of the island as the Hatch went pa-pa-pa-pow. Like an after shock which is what really alerted the Hostile’s to start their attack on Dharmaville.

DeDJeZTeR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeDJeZTeR said...

Continued from above:
If the incedent happened in or around the 1979-1980 time span then that would have made Ben about 9-11 years old (assuming Ben is in his late thirties, which would be alomost perfect timing. The Incedent coincides with one of the first attempts to Purge the Island and the Hostile's didn't succeed until they had an inside man.

Wow what a difference a third watching makes... When Ben is talking to Alpert after the gassing and it becomes apparent that There may not be any Dharma members left, this struck me.

When Jack is in the cage and Isabell comes over and reads his tatto, she gives a sarcastic little giggle and we later find out that Jacks tattoo reads "He walks amongst us, but is not one of us."
What if her sarcastic little giggle is in reference to Ben and not Jack. Ben is not one of them. He is Dharma related and therfore is the one who walks amongst the Natives.

Also when we are shown the pit of Dharma corpses, just after te camera begins to pull out. It focuses on one head at the beginning and circles away. It shows a body with a yellow skull that is wearing a Pearl Station Dharma badge on it's uniform, so I guess there was a mention of the pearl in a sideways kind way.

I think this stuff and the above is going into the podcast so, forgive me now if I repeat any of this then... lol

memphish said...

Morning LoCos!

Welcome Payneofmind! Good call on one of the freaky Hanso experiments being Cellular Stasis. I've often wondered if part of the original Dharma project involved putting different groups of "Dharma" on the Island unknown to one another to test some sort of social theory that way. Maybe the anti-agers were unknown to the Dharmavillagers.

Lostit said: didn't we see Ben stroking a rabbit in his room one time when his father was in the ohter room raging? I think it was his pet. I agree Lostit. Does this make Ben more like Lenny than George in Of Mice and Men?

Dedjezter said: Wow what a difference a third watching makes This cracked me up!

TheBookPolice said...

dedjezter - There are two DHARMA stations mentioned in this episode. Roger talks about coming back from the Flame when the explosion and alarm happened, and Roger and Ben were taking supplies (beer!) to the Pearl when Ben cracked open a can of whoop-ass gas on Daddy.

No one mentioned the Swan, though... Hmmm...

memphish said...

Some comments on Dedjezter's comments. First, Ded, don't worry about reusing stuff from here on the podcast. You are forgiven in advance. :)

The comment about birthdays to Richard - I agree that an Alpert year age is not equal to a Ben year of age. Maybe Alpert was born on Feb. 29th and only has a birthday every 4 years and thus ages slower? JK.

I could buy the attack we heard being the Incident. The timing is about right given the 1980 copyright date on the Swan Orientation film. I'd guess the Pearl and Swan really were designed as a mere psychological experiment on the Swan inhabitants pre-Incident, and converted to real world saving stuff post-Incident.

I still think that there were Swan inhabitants at the time of the Purge, probably Radzinsky and Kelvin and that they survived the Purge unknown to Ben, Richard and the other Hostiles. I think once the Swan mission changed very few Dharma people and definitely not mere work men knew about it.

When Isabell read Jack's tattoo in SIASL my first reaction was she meant Ben, not Jack because the shot as I remember it is one of Ben, then she speaks, then it shows Jack. I've always thought that statement could refer to Ben.

The Pearl was mentioned expressly wasn't it? Wasn't Roger's last supply run to The Pearl? Doesn't he say that? I've only watched once, so you make the call Ded.

Erich said...

Now that you've all got me thinking about "the incident," I'm wondering if it could have happened before Ben got to the island. Perhaps, it was in the first wave of strikes the hostiles made against DHARMA, or (better yet) it was what made the hostiles see DHARMA as a threat to the island in the first place. They were willing to let DHARMA build and exist in a relative truce (like the whole "don't cross this line" deal with the Losties), but through DHARMA's scientific meddling, the incident so threatened the island (think Chernobyl) they decided they couldn't allow DHARMA to stay...

I'm glad to hear some people are coming around to the Jacob = Smokey theory. It occurred to me back in "Stranger in a Strange Land." (Though I'm sure I couldn't have been the first to come up with it.)

memphish said...

Vozzek69 has another great recap of the episode. His breakdown of the Ben/Locke/Jacob scene is very insightful.

No J. Wood yet.

Sayid'sgirl said...

TBP
I actually thought of the Black Rock. But other than dynamite you'd think they'd only have a few rifles that the slavers used for guarding the slaves.

Twinkle said...

Ok. I've done a really really quick word find and didn't see this mentioned so I thought I'd ask.

Remember the Lost Experience? There were pictures of a mysterious man that we had to combine together to get some answer. I don't remember and don't have time to look it up now. Anybody? The man had "Help Me" written into his picture. Now as the story this summer played out, I don't remember ever finding out who that was a picture of or exactly who was saying "Help Me" unless we assume it was Hanso. I kind of doubt that. Is it possible that the picture and the "Help Me" was Jacob?

Next, could the gray powder Locke examined be related to Rousseau's dynamite?

Tim said...

Dennis - Thanks for the quote/bold/etc. help. I'll try it out.

Darkaardvark - I like your thought on the teacher and the volcano. You're right, it's not water – maybe another mysterious property of the island?

Here's a question: Did anyone hear what the orientation film continued to say while Roger was arguing about his job as a "janitor?" Ben was watching the orientation film the whole time, but I didn't make out what it was saying.

One thing that's bugging me as well, is what happened to that lady that came to judge Juliet earlier this season? We really haven't heard anything else about her, and I'm just really wondering where she fits in.

Sayid'sgirl said...

tim
Here's what the orientation film was saying during Roger's argument up until Annie comes up with the appolo bar.
Every morning you will be given a new code which will allow you to cross outside the fences if you so desire. There are properties on this island that exist nowhere else on this earth. Our mission is to study these properties for the betterment of man kind and the advacement of world peace. Most of you will be working on the main land should you be assigned geological study...

Sayid'sgirl said...

That should be advancement. Typing to fast again.

Tim said...

thanks!

Administrator said...

Thought you old TLEC guys might enjoy this email I just got. A year later, I still get emails from people finding things related to the Lost Experience!

Here is the email:

http://www.letyourcompassguideyou.com/usr/trash/139191991471518711419.jpg

Has anyone mentioned the words "The Mouth Piece" text next to the statue in the picture ad for Jeep? Not sure if it has been mentioned.

Twinkle said...

Too funny! So seriously, about the "Help Me," what do you think?

Darkaardvark said...

"Most of you will be working on the main land should you be assigned geological study..."

Nice catch, sayid'sgirl.

I would assume the rest of that sentence is "and on an island just offshore if you are assigned to zoology" or something to that effect. I was wondering what he said as well.

engineer27 said...

twinkle:

The "Help Me" was in the "original" hole2 image, reportedly found by randomly rearranging the color map in the image (the color map is the coding between binary values for each pixel and the color that the computer displays).

That image was quickly replaced by another, nearly identical image, that had "D2O" hidden in it, in much the same way. The "D2O" clue led to the password for a Persephone hack (I can't remember which one off hand) which was "heavy water".

Since the original clue was pulled so quickly, many theorized that those who were running the experience accidentally uploaded the wrong version and had to replace it, which would mean we weren't supposed to see the "Help Me" at all. If that's the case, it is unlikely to be connected to "TMBTC".

I believe all the posts and comments from TLE are still available as a "time capsule" at thelostexperienceclues.com.

namaste

engineer27 said...

Okay, I just checked back. The clue was actually the "hole3" clue, and it said "Save Me", not "Help Me". Sorry, twinkle, looks like no connection.

If you want to reminisce, Click Here.

engineer27 said...

And, to add one more comment, I need to send out great thanks to David ("administrator") for doing all the work of tracking TLE, and for keeping that time capsule for our reference.

Kudos!

Sayid'sgirl said...

tim
You're welcome.
darkaardvark
I'm wondering if you're assigned to something if you get to do the experiments or are you the experiment?

bigdog said...

since we are having a TLE flashback . maybe alpert is getting regular blood transfusions to keep him young like his father.....wait for ir......

the evil Dr. thomas mittelwork.. dah dah don.

have a good weekend all.

bigdog said...

and a happy mothers day to all the wonderful mothers out there.

memphish said...

From Andy Borowitz of the Borowitz Report and his tongue in cheek predictions for next week's news shockers:

Friday, May 18: Responding to ABC’s decision to set 2010 as the ending point for the hit series “Lost,” Vice President Dick Cheney will say that setting such a deadline “sends a dangerous message to the enemy.”

Is he referring to the Others? :)

Lisa said...

Going up a few posts to discussion of the "incidet" maybe we haven't seen it yet.....???
We are still unsure about what happened to Annie- maybe somewhere between Ben in the classroom and Vengeful Ben- there is yet the "deciding" event (incident) for him directly involving Annie. The last thing we see Ben put into his bag before going to gas dad is the Annie doll. We see no Ben doll do we? Maybe it got buried (or sent away) with Annie so that they would always be together (that was the point of the dolls, right?) My vote is that the Annie story has something to do with the fertility/childbirth issues... but anyway, just thought I'd put it out there that maybe there is a third, specific thing that has not been revealed that is the "incident"

Lisa said...

Going up a few posts to discussion of the "incidet" maybe we haven't seen it yet.....???
We are still unsure about what happened to Annie- maybe somewhere between Ben in the classroom and Vengeful Ben- there is yet the "deciding" event (incident) for him directly involving Annie. The last thing we see Ben put into his bag before going to gas dad is the Annie doll. We see no Ben doll do we? Maybe it got buried (or sent away) with Annie so that they would always be together (that was the point of the dolls, right?) My vote is that the Annie story has something to do with the fertility/childbirth issues... but anyway, just thought I'd put it out there that maybe there is a third, specific thing that has not been revealed that is the "incident"

Lisa said...

PS. book club sounds awesome!!!! reading 3rd policeman now... will have much catching up to do....but I'm in!

engineer27 said...

The Blast Door Map refers to more than one "incident," so when people try to talk about the incident, they are bound to grow confused.

One incident, likely the earliest, is the one Marvin Candle refers to in the Swan orientation film, and is probably some sort of physical event of an electromagnetic nature.

Another incident, given on the BDM as occurring in 1985, was known as the AH/MDG incident. Assuming that the initials refer to people (Alvar Hanso? M. De Groot?), this incident has to do with personalities. This is in a time frame that young Ben could have witnessed it, but its nature is still largely unknown.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Hey all - sorry I've been absent for awhile - work sprung up unexpectedly. :)

memphish and other book clubbers - I know we talked about changing the first book to A Wrinkle in Time, but I think I'd like to keep it Watership Down, since I know a lot of people have already gone to pick it up, and/or have started reading it. Let's make Wrinkle our second book. Our list then would be:

June - Watership Down
July - A Wrinkle in Time
August - The Wizard of Oz/Incidence at Owl Creek Bridge
September - The Third Policeman
October - Turn of the Screw/Of Mice and Men
November - Catch-22
December - Carrie
January - Lord of the Flies

If no one has any objections, can we make this official? Dennis or David, is there somewhere we can post this? Thanks!

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