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Thursday, May 10, 2007
THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN - SEASON 3, EPISODE 20 (POST 2)
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424 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 424 Newer› Newest»Engineer- good point- LOST is just a string of incidences, coincidences.... ;-)
It would be intersting to see which of them exactly Ben is referring to----who knows, if his definition of "incident" is anything like his definition of "good" we could be in for a world of possibilities!
I think that we have not seen THE incident yet. The attack that happened while Ben was in school seemed to be something that had happened before. The Purge is obviously separate from The Incident, due to the timeline.
Does anyone remember the copyright date on the Swan film that dicussed the incident, so that we can get a timeframe on it?
On a random note, people didn't actually live at the Pearl did they? Didn't the video say that they worked in 12 hours shifts then took the ferry home? If that's the case, were they just hanging out in there, drinking beer while they worked? :)
Thanks bigdog for the Mother's Day wishes.
Hi all. Just want to start by posting my direct theories before I read everyone elses, then I'll dive back in and see how it changes.
1) I've said before about the island causing everyone to have some kind of precognative ability, although subconciously for most people. I also suspected Ben had an ability closer to Demonds. But now I am starting to think that the centre of the precognative anomoly is that shack. Locke may have heard/seen his own future. Not sure what ben heard and saw as I think he's pretty much nuts. But it makes sense he get's his insights into the future from that location. Which would also explain how he can have such skills without apparently being as in tune with the island on the healing side.
2) I read Bens first conversation with Alpert as follows. Alperts interest peaked when he heard that Bens mom was dead and he had seen her. But then he said she didn't die on the island and that made him a little confused but still curious, then when Ben told him what she said, he just dismissed it as a kid having a dream about his dead mother and figured he could use the kid to take over the island. Having said that though it leaves a question mark over how he rose to power within the Others.
3) If killing your dad is so important to the Others why do they seem to hold it against Kate that she did that? I still think there is something more to that story. Also I was speculating last night that it's possible everyone was somehow involved with their fathers death (that is speculating people like Jins dad got topped by Paik in an unseen part of their story). The only problem was Hurleys Dad, but he could have died since due to Hurleys bad luck.
4) The volcano thing totally adds weight to my theory that they were digging something up. It's almost a 100% certain that if you have an ancient civisation on an island that has an active volcano there will be some very interesting things buried and well preserved (and didn't Locke say things don't stay buried on the island?). I suspect that the others may feel they are decended from that civisation and therefore still have elements to their culture that are a distant relation to an ancient volcano worshipping cult (because ancient civisations near an active volcano tend to get all worshippy). That would explain the use of what seems to be volcanic ash to surround the hut. But it's interesting that there seems to be a christian/jewish tint to their current belief system (refering to "God's love" and stuff). But doesn't mean they don't have traditions based on older practices. I mean modern Christian's still practice a lot of things in their culture that date back to pre-christian religious behaviour (Easter eggs, X-mas tree's, even the supposed look of the devil).
5) I have to admit I am currently thinking that Dannielle is Annie. She left the island and perhaps had a new life and a new name. Ben got all angry psycho stalkery and used his influence to bring her forcibly back to the island. Killer her crew mates and stole her daughter which Ben brought up as his own so he could still have something of her's with him and he left her alive but without knowing what was happening for similar reasons. Then when she saw Ben she put 2 and 2 together realised what he'd done including the DI purge and decided it was time to really take sides. Hence getting the explosives, no doubt to aid the Losties.
6) I thought Ben showed a lot of emotion (strangely for him) when he saw the dead hippie guy. Seems he was probably more like a father to him then his real dad. Although there is a chance that he actually was his real dad and that he had had an affair with Bens mother and somehow got her pregnant on the island. Then got a premonition about her demise and went in to rescue Ben and bring him to the island.
That's pure wild theory though at the moment. I also think it's a good possibility that she died just due to complications not related to the island (and that it's just to give a reason why Ben is so obsessed with the pregnancy problem, while other others aren't).
7) I'm totally back on the Alpert is Mittlewerk theory again. Life extension stuff definetly going on there and there is no reason he couldn't survive the events of the Lost series and escape the island, assume a new identity (hence his non-existant degree and stuff) and go back to some crazy scheme.
That is all I have for now. I will be back later today after checking what everyone else is saying.
Melissa_Lossa said The Purge is obviously separate from The Incident, due to the timeline.
I agree, but I think its also clear due to the semantics... Ben (and others) refer to them as two distinct terms.
I'm with you though, I do think that while there is a string of incidences that have happened- I'm not sure we've seen THE incident. I think the Annie doll in the bag, for me, cinches that Annie is involved (harmed, sent away by, killed, or even betrays Ben) in the incident.
No longer being updated, but chock full of stuff....
http://www.hanttula.com/projects/lost/
Fenris said...
5) I have to admit I am currently thinking that
Dannielle is Annie. She left the island and perhaps had a new life and a new name.
WOW......... wow....double wow. I could go with that!
6) I thought Ben showed a lot of emotion (strangely for him) when he saw the dead hippie guy. Seems he was probably more like a father to him then his real dad. Although there is a chance that he actually was his real dad
Either way, I agree- there was something special to Ben about this guy. May also negate some of our thoughts that Dharma as a whole wasn't as benevolent as they seemed- even if the guys was just one good guy among the bad.
Thanks for the Mother's Day wishes, bigdog. I'm looking forward to a relaxing day surrounded by family.
Melissa: I vote that we accept your list of books and their order. Thanks for doing such a great job! Are we discussing the books the last Wed each month?
On The Incident: this is the one referred to by Marvin Candle in the Swan Orientation film, right? This is what caused the 108 minute protocol to be established, wasn't it? So it must predate Roger & Ben's arrival, already having been established by that time. Or do I have my dates mixed up?
Don't forget to vote for the HUGO CUP this week!
that's at www.jayandjack.com/hugocup
Morning all! A BIG Happy Mother's Day weekend to all of you!
Melissa_lossa: I second the motion that we accept your reading list! (I'm one of those who already got Watership Down!)
Agreed that the Incident and Purge are two different things. The Incident was mentioned by Candle in the Swan film dated 1980. The Incident is what changed protocols on the island. The Purge is most likely the gassing of the DI people by the Hostiles. Young Ben was experiencing a skirmish with the Hostiles in the classroom. I'm thinking the Purge happened around 1992.
Fenris: I don't know about Danielle being Annie. I know Danielle is a little crazy, but you'd think she'd remember something about being a child on the island. Would Ben have sent her off the island before the gassing? Would she have already been pregnant with Alex? I don't know. She claims to be on the island for 16 years (1988)...would Ben have gotten her pregnant and off the island around that time?
All this talk of TLE brings a tear to my eye! LOL Especially Hole2...we all went crazy on that one!
melissa_lossa said
On a random note, people didn't actually live at the Pearl did they? Didn't the video say that they worked in 12 hours shifts then took the ferry home? If that's the case, were they just hanging out in there, drinking beer while they worked? :)
Yes you're right. With all the beer they were drinking I'm wondering how acurate their notes on the Swan were. ;)
Melissa_lossa and Sayid's Girl, here's the stuff about the Pearl from Mark Wickman.
Your tour of duty in The Pearl will last 3 weeks and during this time you and your partner will observe a psychological experiment in progress. Your duty is to observe team members in an other station on the island. These team members are not aware that they are under surveillance or that they are the subjects of an experiment. Working in 8 hour shifts, you and your partner will record everything you observe in the notebooks we provided. What is the nature of the experiment?' you might ask. What do these subjects believe they are accomplishing as they struggle to fulfill their tasks?' You as the observer don't need to know. All you need to know is the subjects believe they're job is of the utmost importance. Remember, everything that occurs, no matter how minute or seemingly unimportant, must be recorded. Each time a notebook is filled with the fruits of your diligent observation, you will [static] in one of the containers provided. Then, simply place the container in the pneumatic tube and... presto! It will be transported directly to us. At the end of your 8 hour shift, proceed to the Pala Ferry which will take you back to the barracks.
I put in the bold on the relevant time stuff.
ML, Watership Down is fine. I'm excited to get to some of the time travel stuff though. It keeps seeming to get more and more relevant.
I just thought I would share this thought from Vozzek, because it made me laugh really hard.
"I laughed my a** off watching Tom casually sip coffee while Locke beat the snot out of poor Mikhail. I actually felt bad for him. He's filthy dirty, was 99% dead, just got his a** kicked by Jin, and ran halfway across the island just so Locke could deliver more punishment?"
Have y'all seen this?. Pretty amazing work by billkellyeditor.
Over at DarkUFO Forum, Steve posted a photoshop image of Locke overlaying Jacob. Looks very close to me!
What if the line of ash or whatever it is in the jungle is just another line that is not to be crossed? It could be just a warning sign for the rest of the Others not to proceed beyond that point and ash was the easiest, most resilient, most different colored marker they had.
It kind of reminds me of the Israelites in Exodus when they reach mount Sinai.
10 And the LORD said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, 'Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death. 13 They are to be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on them. Whether people or animals, they shall not be permitted to live.' Only when the ram's horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain." Exodus 19:10-13 Bold added.
I think the real reason that Alpert doesn't remember birthdays anymore is because:
1. there are no restaurants on Island to taken to
2. there are no Hallmark stores to get your Shoebox card from
3. how many times can you get a bouquet of red flowers
4. like at my old office, they make the birthday boy cut the cake, which stinks
5. it just reminds him that Social Security probably won't be around when he needs it and that he forgot to enroll in the Mittelos 401k
6. the Others spanking machine they make the birthday boy go through not to mention those pinches for an inch
7. the giant Sombrero you are forced to wear and the cheesy song Tom insists they all sing
8. Jacob always raises the drinking age just before Alpert can reach it
memphish
Thanks for the Pearl Orientation.
So we have 2 maybe 3 people working at the Pearl for 3 weeks on eight hour shifts. They leave after 8 hours and go back to the barracks while the other(s) work their 8 hour shift.
At least that's the way it sounds to me. Or maybe it's 2 people for each 8 hour shift.
That still seems like an awful lot of beer for three weeks. ;) Although it was the 70's.
New J. Wood.
Thanks for the link for J. Wood, Memphish. Do you feel any better about the Book Club reading "Watership Down" first since it's mentioned by J. Wood this week? LOL
memphish - thanks for the info on the Pearl. I guess it was good that all those notebooks went no where. They were probably 100 pages of "Dr. Smith made a sandwich. Damn! She looks HOT! *burp*"
Engineer: Thanks for looking up the reference. I've been on the old site recently but didn't have time to look this morning.
When Jacob said "Help me" I felt like somewhere we'd heard or seen that before in the Lostverse. Guess I was wrong.
memphish your reasons Richard doesn't remember birthdays is hilarious!
I began watching the epi again (although I didn't finish) and noticed when Ben and Roger came to the island and Horace greeted them- it looked like Horace had the Arrow station symbol on his Dharma patch. Most of the Others had a plain Dharma symbol, even the nurse who gave Roger his work clothes had a plain patch (not the staff logo) and in the film Candle had the Swan patch- but other than that all the patches looked generic. Do we know any more about the Arrow hatch and what it was for? I know the Tailies found that stuff in there, but have we learned any more about that?
twinkle:
We heard "Help Me" in the Lost Rhapsody 2. The music bed was Weird Al's "Alternative Polka," which includes a version of "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails, which features the lyric "Help Me."
So, you were sort of right!
after reading Fenris-
I like where you're going with #1.
My wild theory about the mysterious ash substance- could it be Smokey in a dormant state? A while back I emailed a theory to Passafist and Goog (which they didn't read- but most of it is just bunk now anyway)...but anyway I wondered if Smokey was some sort of substance that was controlled telekinetically by Jacob, who seeing the future could pass judgement on people as he saw fit. After this epi maybe that has some truth. Of course- it doesn't answer why Smokey couldn't go over the sonic fence.
Going to read J. Wood BBL
Thanks, engineer! My first impression from the Jacob scene was that Jacob wanted help from Ben. Any theories?
Also in the scene at the end of the purge, before Richard took of his mask, the guy next to him reminded me of Mikhail. I was totally expecting him to take of his mask too and when he didn't I was surprised and wondered if my first impression was wrong. Anybody else notice that?
Wait, that didn't come out right - I thought Jacob wanted help from Locke because of something Ben was doing to him.
Twinkle, did you read Vozzek69s recap on the front page of DarkUFO?
Here is the link again. I think you'd enjoy reading his/her take on Ben and Locke and Jacob. You can scroll down to that section if you're pressed for time.
Great episode. A theory on the island:
1. Continuing with a purgatory-like idea. Post death time would stand still. I believe once dead, everyone would already be in a post-death existence (ie in heaven or hell or whatever you believe) so in effect there is no time. This could explain how people on the island have visions of loved ones or people that have impacted their life. They could be appearing in this limbo or purgatory world trying to help them along because to people in this state, they are still alive and therefore still believe in time.
2. Continuing above, the only people who could fit the "dead" category are the losties, Naomi (from a crash), Desmond (also from a crash), Juliette (she could have died when drinking that liquid from Alpert), and TMFT (car carsh). The only unsure groups are the Dharma people and the Others. We don't have the back stories to know that they died before getting to the island. Also, we know that Ben had a vision or visitation from his mother. Does that mean Ben is dead?
3. I don't know if Ben is dead or not – we need more back story on him. But my guess is that he isn't. The island is special. The hostiles were there, then dharma arrived. We know that people have arrived on the island though not via a traditional travel approach – losties crashing, TMFT appearing, Naomi crashing, Desmond crashing – that supports a purgatory like existence. A theory could be is that this is a post-death place, but also a place that one could also travel to via not dying. Like the Dharma folks and the hostiles (Others). This place could be like a way station in-between worlds that one could travel back and forth too. This could explain why it is difficult to get to, why some people appear dead, why some people age and other's don't, the supernatural properties to the island, etc.
The Other's also treat death insignificantly. Ben's remark to Patchy about him being dead showed little surprise or emotion from Ben. Likewise, their lack of emotion towards Locke needing to kill TMFT in the previous episode. The Other's lack of emotion at killing the Dharma people.
Notice how Ben looks completely suprised that Locke cannot see Jacob? Though it could be a ruse by Ben, he is shocked. So why would Ben be shocked that Locke heard Jacob? Could it be that people can only SEE Jacob but cannot hear him and that only Ben can hear and see Jacob? Hence his need to remove Locke.
Or, could it be that only Ben goes to Jacob and though he is probably real, Locke doesn't believe that and would tell the Other's this. The Other's would then question Ben's leadership and then the need to remove Locke.
A thought from today (came up with this from a friend's e-mail and some discussion at work today):
Maybe Jacob is a manifestation of whoever is looking at/talking to him. For example, Ben goes to Jacob and sees some sort of manifestation of himself (projected from the future or a loop) and that is why only he can see and/or speak to his Jacob.
Locke sees Jacob (himself saying "Help Me" from the future, maybe from on top of a pile of bodies) and he hears it because it is meant for him and not Ben.
They don't recognize themselves because when the essence is projected it gets skewed in a way...like looking at something through really thick glass or water.
Only people who are looping or are open to the idea of it can project and/or see themselves as Jacob (maybe why Jacob doesn't talk to everyone).
PS: I just located the cruddiest copy of A Wrinkle in Time on my shelf at school today, and Watership Down and Widard of Oz are on the way from Amazon!
Two in a row, sorry.
jason said...3. I don't know if Ben is dead or not – we need more back story on him.
He could be, he could have died when he gassed his father. They all could have for that matter, but I am not really sure if that would make sense what with Alpert being able to leave the island and recruit.
fenris said...It's almost a 100% certain that if you have an ancient civisation on an island that has an active volcano there will be some very interesting things buried and well preserved
Yuh huh...For one, DNA could have been preserved. There have been many bodies found from Pompeii. Maybe the natives or Dharma were looking for a specific gene that was in the DNA of an ancient civilization on the island.
For two, maybe there is an artifact that they are specifically looking for. Think Rosetta Stone (minus all the tourists standing around it), something that is the key or the answer to utopia/nirvana/unlocking the power of the mind, etc...
Ben looks completely suprised that Locke cannot see Jacob? Though it could be a ruse by Ben, he is shocked. So why would Ben be shocked that Locke heard Jacob?
Jason, my question too! I wondered if Ben was upset because Jacob speaking directly to Locke meant he bypassed Ben and was siding with Locke. I'm not sure about the theory with the time loop and that the "Help me" was an echo from Locke's future "Help me." Do you supposed the person in the pit with a bullet hole in his head was another person Ben did this to?
Memphish: Thanks! Checking out DarkUFO...
Duh! Reading Dark UFO's thing I just connected that Ben was making Locke kill his father because Ben had to kill his father to join the Others! If Locke had failed (maybe as Ben expected him to) then he didn't show the commitment that Ben himself showed and could be the leader. Locke is definitely contending for Ben's throne now so the shooting was about more than getting rid of a nuisance.
Sorry that should be "could *not* be the leader"
Gonna brave a fourth post.
Memphish: The DarkUFO analysis is awesome! Thanks! I'm still not sure I buy the "Jacob is a different character from another time" thing, but the jury's still out.
Scoutpost, in response to your logo recap above, I noticed upon rewatch that Roger had the swan logo on his jumpsuit. You can see it during the flashback scene when Ben comes home to find his dad drunk on his birthday. So Ben had to know something about it.
Also, after we see Jacob in the chair, it cuts to Locke... and the look on his face makes me think he saw the person in the chair too.
And did anyone else notice how, when Jacob started freaking out, the lantern fell and started that fire, but then when Ben walked out, he had an intact lantern with him?
maybe the volcano reaction with the baking soda is how mikhail faked the foaming from his mouth when he stepped through the sonic fence, maybe those jars at jacobs were the fake blood coming out of his ears. Ben was way to non-chalant about mikhail still being alive...
LGLM, There's also all that food with the Swan logo, so I agree that the Dharmavillagers knew something about it, but I think that they thought it was a joke because of the Pearl video.
It had to be the case that the button protocol in the Swan was set up by Dharma right, because of Marvin's film? It would also be the case that the button was still pushed post-Purge or else the whole Island would be quaking not later than 108 minutes from Purge time right?
My guess is that somehow a person in the Flame was able to Enter 77 with a bleeding nose or maybe even by seeing video feed from Dharmaville. Perhaps that triggered a lockdown in The Swan complete with the tunnel destruction that seems to be indicated on the Blast Door Map. I would also guess that at some point after that DI inserted Kelvin and Radzinsky to take over at the Swan, painted quarantine on the inside of it, and set up the food drop protocol by The Swan to supply that 2 man team.
I don't understand why there is still so many Dharma products for these Mittelos people though. Did Ben, Richard, etc. reach some agreement with Hanso for them to carry on DI's work and keep the supplies coming? And why not change the labels? Or is just the case that there is a Dharma giant warehouse Locke hasn't blown up yet?
Do you think Ben, Richard and his group got to the Pearl watcher and gassed him leaving his corpse for the bears or did the Pearl survivor escape the gas only to be taken by the polar bears?
wow big post for me its my very first
TO ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO BELIVE THE THE ISLAND IS PURGATORY!!!!!EXCLAMATION POINT!!!!!!!
During the whole wonderful lost experience thing between seasons 2-3 i came upon a wiki site dedicated to lost. It had a theroies section but one of the theories (Island=Purgatory) was PROVEN false.
One of the writers openly said that the island is in no way related to purgatory.
Welcome James Ethridge!
Most of the comments around here about Purgatory are tongue in cheek. We've heard the denials from TPTB, but hey, we all like a good joke every now and then.
There's Extra Doc Jensen to fill your weekend with thoughts of competing philosophical constructs. Just a little light reading.
Yes, James Ethridge, Memphish is right. We are pretty much just hedging our bets (just in case TPTB decide to say "Fooled ya! It IS Purgatory!") when we talk about Purgatory.
All except for Chucklez3. He's very serious about Purgatory, so don't joke around with him. LOL
Yes- chucklez3 is very serious about Purgatory! Won't he have the last laugh if he's right!
Someone said earlier that there was a link on DarkUFO where the image of Jacob is superimposed with a pic of Locke. Where is that? I poked all over that site and couldn't find it.
Gotta tell ya- don't know if it's just me or what, but after TLE and this season...my brain is starting to get really tired with all these mysteries and analysis! I just don't know what to make of what's going on on that blame island any more! (maybe I should just get some more sleep)
Scoutpost, here is yourLocke Mash-up.
the food drops are supposed to be in perpatuity since the beginning as was in tle orientation film, until LOcke pushed 77 they didnt know the hostiles had taken over. After the purge they set up the swan protocol to vent the maganatism. Remember in the wizard of Oz wtowards the end when the wizard did one last push to scare them all into thinking he was powerful. Am I the only one that thinks that this weeks jacob experience was the step right before we actually see the man behind the curtain. Locke seemed to think this too that it was ben last parler trick. As much as the wizard was sort of a lame let us not forget that he did grant all their wishes
Just thought you guys would like to see what I bought for my yet-to-born grandbaby: A "Numbers" Onesie! It just came today and it's soooo cute!
The thing about the food drops though 2Costa is that the one we saw in Lockdown and Dave had only enough food for 2 people for 3 months and all had Swan labels. There had to be other food drops/deliveries for Othersville. I wonder if they are still occuring and why they would continue to occur at Othersville (despite the in perpetuity language) given the utter destruction of all those people. It's not like Alvar's film was a binding legal document and it's not hard to break that language in a legal document anyway when circumstances change so drastically.
if ben is so tight with jacob, why did he desperatly want to know what jacob said. It could either go two ways, Ben genuinly acting like he didnt hear what jacob said to locke makes the con that much more believable. But bens version doesn't seem plausible, if he is so tight with jacob seeing him and talking to him he would have heard what he said to locke. So the only other thing i can think of if jacob wasnt a smoke induced parler trick is richard gave ben enough info to know where jacob hangs out and where, but he was faking the whole being tight whith jacob thing? Another thing that bothered me with patchys weird appearances the last two weeks is most of the others were pumped for locke to check out jacob, but mikhail seemed to think that was abad idea. It has been speculated that the liquid in jacobs windows in the jars was sun made tea, which is exactly what mikhail offered sayid to drink. Another simularity is mikhails shack was the first one besides the barracks that was an above ground shack until jacobs pad. Maybe the super computer is under jacobs hut and it is rigged so that if anyone tries to use a light or whatever it goes crazy so its hard to find the trap door to the hatch underneath it???
I think the Hostiles have been posing all along as the Dharma people...using their hatches and living in Dharmatown. That keeps the food drops happening. Now things have changed since the sky turned purple and Ben's plans are unraveling with the outside world encroaching in the form of Naomi.
wELL MEMPHIS THE SWAN PEOPLE ARE ALL LOCKED IN A HATCH, while the rest of them have renewable food sources like eggs and cattle. So the sawnys need the drop
But Maven, wouldn't someone back in the world say, uh, could I talk to Horace or Cassy or anyone higher up than the level of Ben Work Man?
I forgot to add, especially since the broadcast of the numbers changed? Who was supposed to be monitoring that? Was the whole thing a joke from the very beginning?
Mamphish said: But Maven, wouldn't someone back in the world say, uh, could I talk to Horace or Cassy or anyone higher up than the level of Ben Work Man?
Well, the technology is pretty dated there...don't think they had web cameras! LOL Was there phone service?
Hi again,
I just had to look up what that bit on the blast door about the incident said. AH/MDG incident. AH initially we were saying Alvar Hanso, but if Annies surname begins with an H she could be the person on the first half the that. Of course AH could also stand for Atomic Hamster. *shrug*
Lisa - I totally agree. My impression of the DI is that they were a mixture of hippies, scientists and bueroctrats. Like any project I'm sure some people really believed in it and others were involved for their own purposes (most likely of which to be to get money). No doubt some of them were jerks but on the whole they are good people. Having said that, it doesn't mean the DI wasn't doing something dodgy out there, it's just that the majority weren't involved with it.
Maven - It's not one of my strongest ideas. Just a possibility. Mostly because I find the idea that Ben would steal someones daughter and pretend it is his very strange, I also would find it strange that he would have another love interest in Danniell and that leaves either her being nuts (perhaps due to being some kind of experimental subject for the Others) or she is Annie.
But if she is nuts here is another idea. What if the AH/MDG incidental is something like Annie Hanso/Maternal Death Generation. Okay not the specific words, but the idea being that incident was her dying on giving birth. That being the first death and an extra reason behind Bens obsession with that problem and also the reason he seems to be confused in his feelings for his daughter, like he both resents her and feels bad for doing so because it is exactly how his dad felt about him.
However, I don't like to just Dismiss Danielles maternal feelings as just her being a nut case.
Scoutpost - I like the ash theory. Although your right the fence seems to rule it out a little. I did wonder for a bit if a mixture of healing powers and telekensis could be the reason for the appearances of dead people. Which would fit in too. Now I can see how a sonic fence could maybe disrupt telekenisis, but I don't see why it would effect the ash physically like it effected smokeys form.
General thought - I said before how I read Alperts meeting with Ben. Now thinking of it, what if he was using Ben all along. He felt (and it was) that Ben just had a dream or is a bit crazy and was seeing things. But he figured if he could convince Ben and some of the rest of his own group (who are a bit cult like) that he was seeing and hearing this legendary "Jacob" then he could then rally them to do this purge and have him become the undisputed leader of the cult with him at his right hand (pulling the strings - or at least he thought he could do that at the time). Ben never could hear jacob, but he pretnended, to keep his power. However he was very scared doing that. Meanwhile Alpert has been looking for a way to get rid of Ben without loosing credibility himself and replace him with someone easier to control (this time he's thinking of Locke). Because Ben's never heard Jacob he got very worried and angry when Locke did hear something he said.
Okay heres another Jacob theory and was the first one I had, when watching. A long time theory about some of the Lost mysteries has involved the Philadephia experiment. Now one of the stories about that involve the sailors fading in and out (teleporting or going invisible or something, kinda fading in and out of reality) during a bar brawl. So what if Jacob was part of an expirement based on that technology and the side effect is he's stuck fading in and out of reality. Maybe part of that gives him glimpses of the future and past? Maybe even allows him to interact with it. That's probably getting a bit too far fetched however.
Swan Logo food theory - Just thinking, if Dharma continued manning the Swan after withdrawing elsewhere. Perhaps that food and booze just came from drops for the Swan that was stolen by the Others. Because the DI would pressumably not be dropping food to them after they killed so many DI people. Could also explain why the Others left the Swan alone. Partially because they were unsure about this whole button thing and partially because they liked being able to steal supplies now and then. Maybe it was a trade off.
A thought: What if Richard Alpert wants to replace Ben with Locke? Knowing that Locke is special, he would be the perfect messiah to lead all the people out of whatever comes next (gaining control over the Losties and dealing with encroachment from the outside world - Naomi being on the island). Richard needs a replacement for Ben -- who seems to be falling apart and is overly obsessed with the fertility issue...not being able to deal with the bigger picture. It seems Ben is vulnerable (getting cancer) while Locke heals himself and shuns technology and wants to be "one with the island". Maybe the Hostiles made a mistake elevating Ben to leader -- Locke would make a better choice.
Maven! That onesie is a hoot!
Scoutpost,
Your post about the Logo patches is almost the same thought that I just finished recording for the podcast. I have a little bit more that attaches to what you said though. You probably wrote it while I was speeking it which is just palin creepy... lol
Scoutpost,
Your post about the Logo patches is almost the same thought that I just finished recording for the podcast. I have a little bit more that attaches to what you said though. You probably wrote it while I was speeking it which is just palin creepy... lol
That was weird. I posted that once and it came up twice. While using my name once. Creepy again.
Twinkle: I know! I saw it and had to get it! They also have one with a "Dharma" Hatch Logo: The Changing Hatch.
Great comments and thoughts today everyone!! Such a big help in understanding all this. While I took a day-trip to Memphis and back, I thought about these things.
Locke heard Jacob and not Ben, because Jacob "whispered" it to Locke telepathically so that Ben couldn't hear. And that's also what ticked Ben off about it, not just because Jacob asked Locke for help instead of him, but also that Jacob was talking to Locke behind Ben's back. Or, in front of Ben's back, since Locke was in front of him. :-)
Maybe the Pearl station was set up to monitor the Swan peeps, to make sure that the plan to man the station to keep pushing the button was working. The Pearl people thought that it was a psych exercise, and were not told the seriousness of the Swan team's task. But, then, why all the unread notebooks in the field? I dunno.
I don't know the Hostiles family lineage originally, but perhaps when Dharma got there, the Hostiles were friendly and then Dharma started taking over their people and sacred places to do their experiments and were exploiting the island, and the Hostiles asked them to cease, and the DI didn't. So, the former Friendlies turned into Hostiles.
On anyone being correct if it does or doesn’t turn out to be Prugatory.....it's a 50/50 chance, winning would not be such a big deal. :o)
I was feeling bad about the proposed end of Lost, and how much I'll miss it, when I got a thought watching next week's preview again...maybe by the time they blow everything and everyone up, there won't be much left to happen anyway, so we might not miss it so much after all. That's probably the only way we can't scream for more, is if there isn't anything left to write more about. Seriously, TPTB will have to kill everyone off to make me not be sad for The End. ::sniff::
Also, I love the Philly Exper Fading Jacob theory Fenris. I've been secretly clinging to that as a partial epxlanation of The Incident for some time. I think you have to. :o)
Sorry for the long post, had to get it outta my system.
P.S. I'm sticking with someone's idea that Jacob is Dennis Hopper, until he makes his debut!
I love that onesie, Maven! How adorable.
Haha! Amused, I was refreshing the page and just when Hurley was morphing into Kate in your avi (or was it Locke morphing into Hurley), it froze, and it made Hurley look like the Mona Lisa! It was great! :o)
Another thought on your Philly-X theory Fenris, if that's true, maybe that's why Jacob hates technology so much now. He got burned reeeeeeeal bad by it.
I haven't caught up yet, so I apologize if this has been touched on already.
In "Enter 77", didn't Mikhail say "Help Me" to Locke? I thought I remembered someone saying it after the Flame blew up.
The rumbling and explosions that happened when Ben was in the classroom could have been related to the incident. It also could have had something to do with Danielle, Montand, the dynamite and the missing arm. I think Danielle was Dharma and that Montand is Marvin Candle/Mark Wickman. She did say something to the effect that "they're all dead" on her broadcast. She also said she was part of a scientific research team.
Hey memphish- thanks for the DarkUFO link.
Ded- can't wait to hear the podcast. Creepy indeed- maybe we have a Jacob-like quality.
Ok just heard on the news that it got up to 106 here in Phoenix today. I knew it was hot, but MAN-it's only May 11!!
Has anyone ever brought up the fact that Danielle's drawing of the island is from Alcatraz. Sh claims to know nothing of the Others but has been at the Hydra Island.
Just struck me as odd.
Capcom - Yes that would make sense. Also perhaps he is charged with some kind of energy and the nearby technology, or maybe just light interferes with him. There seems to be some importance of the reaction to the flashlight anyway.
Dedjezter - If she drew the island from Alcatraz, perhaps she was subjected to the brainwashing device. Which could actually mean she is Annie and everything she recalls as Danielle is false memories.
If that's the case then it opens the door to some of or all of the lostaways having been brainwashed also.
Great episode
Has anyone ever brought up the fact that Danielle's drawing of the island is from Alcatraz. Sh claims to know nothing of the Others but has been at the Hydra Island.
Can you elaborate, DeD? I remember her drawing. How is it "from Alcatraz"?
Maven: The *Changing Hatch!* Too funny!
Twinkle, I think THIS is the picture Ded was talking about(?). If it is and she can draw Lostie island from that perspective it means that she has been on the smaller Other island (Alcatraz) at some point.
The way she gets around that joint I wouldn't be surprised if she had a boat stashed away. I am still going to go with the idea that she is way more in cahoots with the other than she admits to.
Fenris's idea of false memories is an interesting one. Room 23 perhaps implanted in her the idea of the "sickness" which we have yet to see evidence of, and are inclined to think was made up (per Kelvin). Maybe none of her story is true. Maybe her crew are not dead, but acting as Others now (new mothers?) Maybe she gave Alex to Ben.
Happy Weekend LoCos and Happy Early Mother's Day to all the LoCo Moms! All moms are probably loco, but great moms are LoCos too.
There's a new OLP. There aren't any spoilers for the rest of the season unless you count info about what we won't see as a spoiler.
There are clarifications about Ben's motives with Locke and Jacob and shooting Locke. And they answer a question about the line of ash with 2 possible answers.
Be sure not to miss the discussion of Ezra James Sharkington and his potential flashback near the end of the podcast.
Hey, all! Would you weigh in on something for me please? I'm thinking of a post for SOTL that would wrap up the season. If you can give me some fodder, I'll use it to make the SOTL post.
What do you think the overarching philosophy or point of this season has been?
ange: Thanks for the picture! I think I see what you mean, but I'm not so sure she would have to be off island to draw the topography from the side. I'm really partial to her original story for some reason. If it turns out not to be true, I'll be sad.
Twinkle, Did you check out Doc Jensen's Philosophy Column? Maybe that can help. There's also this article from USA Today about philosophers and Locke.
Sorry, Locke = LOST. Thinking + Typing + listening to your ipod + and drinking coffee + before 9 am = typos.
LOL! Thanks, Memphish.
haha quote from best week ever on VH1:
"while you were slowing down LOST to see jacob, someone was having the best week ever !"
hahaha
wow .. you guys have had some really good theories ! with the volcano and a wrinkle in time and stuff .. good connections .
Twinkle: I think one of the major themes of this season has been fear of outsiders, and looking at things from different perspectives.
Up to this season, we knew very little about the Others, now we've seen their society. We also got to see the Losties from the Others' perspective: as a group of con artists, murderers, junkies and theives; and it's hard to argue with them on that.
All this fear of outsiders has led (as it always does) to conflict. DHARMA vs. Hostiles; Losties vs. Others. Heck, even us fans spend most of our theorizing on how all the characters must be working some con on some other character.
Don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I hope it helps.
FYSB, Maven's friend Ken as a special Pre-Mother's Day Post that you should check out.
Memphis: Very funny! Thanks for the link again! I've got to go there more often.
Hi, LoCos! I've just spent an hour and a half researching volcanoes. And I got nothing. I'm pretty sure the substance we saw was volcanic ash, which isn't ash at all but pulverized rock caused by magma hitting the outside atmosphere. I really couldn't relate the chemical properties to anything LOST. It can conduct electricity but all you have to do is jump over it if it's electrified.
And because of my theory that there is something fishy about the water, I looked into the effects of volcanic ash on groundwater. There are only temporary effects lasting a few days.
Ah, well.
Did someone say something about parthenogenesis? Scoutpost, was that you? Another of my pet theories. Of course, Ben has daddy issues. It's not his daddy. That's why all of them have dysfunctional families and poor relationships with their fathers. The dads are stand-ins, resenting their wives and children. Dharma perfected mommy-only kids years ago. Now, they have Juliet. Was she supposed to come up with daddy-only babies? Ick.
I think goodspeed wasnt being totally truthful about not knowing who the hostiles were or was at the bottom of the dharma food chain. The hostiles have to have some link to hanso or dharma. It was confirmed tha magnus hanso was alvars granpa and the blast door map shows his final resting place by the black rock. Since the island is near impossible to find ALvar had to find out about the island somehow. So my theory is that both dharma and the hostiles are funded by the hanso foundation in some form, mittleso bioscience has to be a subsidary of hanso. I almost liken it to the jews, muslims, and christains. They all answer to the same God and trace there lineage back to abraham, but each group thinks they have the inside track with the man upstairs. When richard told ben he would havwe to be patient and didnt take out dharma for another 20 plus years. I think richard did this so that Ben could get properly trained as a scientist by dharma to groom him for his future role with the hostiles or because the timeline required it to go down just as it did. I think the whole time we have been looking for who or how they are trying to undermine ben, but it is the reverse. Ben has been playing everybody to undermine richard. KLugh, MIkhail, goodwin, and richard all seemed to like the sub and the gettign of the island thing. Ben asked tom about themissing recorder to cover his ass when the lostys are ready for the ambush, this is how he can discredit locke and richard at the same time. At first i thought he set up mikhail showing up to get out of taking locke to jacob, but i think ben did that on purpose so after they get ambushed by the 815'ers none of the blame lands on him, rather it will be on Richard and locke. With his recorder gone if ben was on the up and up the first thing he would think is that locke swiped it, but no he planted the seed that he thought tom took it. It just so happens that on the flipside of the tape it has the exact time they are gonna try to take the females. With the tape missing knowing that it has his exact time for invasion on it, ben would be smart to change the plan when mikhail comes, but his plan is right on scchedule. Everyone thinks that ben is losing control and getting sloppy, but i think his master plan is still in effect. If he didnt warn the 815'ers they would swipe the ladies without inncident, but this way a war is gonna break out and then ben can discredit locke and richard for the others loss of life. I think ben wants to make sure that locke could hear jacob before he gets rid of richard. He shot him cause he figured if locke was good with the island that he will be fine...
In classic ben fashion, not hearing jasob discredited part of what his story but bolstered the other part. It proved that jacob was real and ben wasnt as special as hes claimed. But if it is a con it is a perfect way to make locke think that jacob is real. If locke lives through his gunshot you know hes gonna wanna check out jacobs shack again without ben. I was thinking just like locke after he "saw jacob" that is was yet another wizard of oz parler trick, but ben wanting to know what jacob said made me question that and start to beleive jacob was real, but i think thaty was the point...
One thing that I found upsetting about the Hostiles was how hostile they were. Gassing an entire community is evil. Ben is evil. The Losties are up against some bad dudes. Trusting Juliet is not a good idea.
Thanks for the contribution, Erich.
Barbara: TPTB said by the end of the season we would be truly horrified by how bad the Others really are. Maybe the gassing is part of what they meant?
Now that Season 3 is almost over, Gregg Nations is back on The Fuselage answering questions including the one about the date on the newspaper in Expose. Gregg answers:
Yeah, that was a big mistake. That was the first paper created, and props caught it and had a correct one made. But then someone grabbed the first (incorrect) one and that's what they filmed for the close-up. Ugh!
Right Barbarajay, good research! The ash is a part of the pyroclastic material flow from the volcanic blast. That is, all that hot grey plumage that billows out.
Thinking more about your theories Fenris, I kind of mushed some of them together a little. What if the Black Rock in its voyage (way back when) hit some kind of weird force field that the island emanates (like the electro/magnetic/gravitational Philly X field), it ended up in the middle of the island (far from the water), and somehow Magnum H. got pulled into the floating midrange of existance like the sailors in the Philly-X, and became Jacob? Although, I really don't have an explanation for why he changed his name. :o)
Gosh, I hope that TPTB don't leave us hanging too much about that part at the end of the season.
Morning Locos,
Twink and any others. Here are the pictures that lead me to belive she has been on Alcatraz.
Original Drawing
Slightly altered
Ben and Sawyer
I took these all from Yung23's Lost Map thread
I don't know if any of you have seen this, but the guy has been making a virtual map of the Island since the show started and from what I can tell he is getting really close. He has even started making skins for characters. He could make this a game if he wanted to, or just a virtual version of the show. Both would be interesting if you ask me.
He actually called the fact that there was a different island way back in season 1.
He has done a lot with the map and it is worth a check.
BTW, interesting points about Ben and his plans, 2costa! Ben does always seem to have a contingency plan for every step he takes, in case something goes wrong. I would not be surprised if what you said is the case.
Also, in keeping with the Philly-X theory, the Black Rock could be also partially joined to the island molecularly, like the sailors on the Philly ship, when it re-materialized. We just haven't seen that yet, because the Losties haven't noticed it yet. Not saying it's so, just a thought on the Philly-X angle.
Capcaom,
Maybe he didn't change his name, but it was the work of the Hostile's. If they see there Gahd as Jacob and this man trapped between worlds (Resembles their god) so they begin calling him Jacob, he corrects them, but they keep on clinging to the hope that he truly is Jacob. So he in turn becomes Jacob, because who could resist being a gahd for a while. Could You?
I think that you could really have a point here Ded. I used to think that maybe she drew the island from her boat, when her team was first arriving at the island, and I never thought of it the way you have.
And I love Yung23's map work, thanks for the reminder of it. I have forgotten to check and see how much progress he has made since Season3.
Hi, everyone! Hope you all have great Mother's Day Plans!
2costa said: almost liken it to the jews, muslims, and christains. They all answer to the same God and trace there lineage back to abraham, but each group thinks they have the inside track with the man upstairs.
I like this idea! All three groups believe they are the "chosen" ones: The Losties, Others/Hostiles, and original Dharma people. Dharma was formed as an idealistic way to save humanity and create a peaceful world. Somewhere along the line, they strayed from their original intentions. The Hostiles, who were living on the island for who knows how long (since Black Rock days?) learned the island's ways and were able to communicate with it. They eventually saw Dharma as intruders to their peaceful life and felt Dharma strayed from the harmony of the island. Now, the Losties were thrust into this situation not solely on their own accord, but a few of them seem to have a specialness to the island (Locke, Walt, Rose, Desmond). They just want to figure out what is happening to them and most of them want to go home. But their being there throws a wrench into the Others concept of co-existing with the island, and outsiders must be dealt with. I think Richard (who might be the real force behind the Others agenda), believes Locke is the "new messiah" and will lead the people back to being one with the island.
Dedjezter: Thanks for the link to Yung23's map site. Awesome stuff!
You have a good point about the tempation to be a God, Ded. It reminds me of an old Twilight Zone where two astronauts landed on a planet with tiny people, and one of them became their God and he was loving it! :-D
Quick Question,
Why do so many jump to the Messiah ship so easily? I am not saying it is the wrong thing to do, just that he doesn't have to be their messiah. I have a theory in the podcast about the Hostile's slowly loosing their ability to commune with the Island and /or Jacob, So all they need is someone special to communicate for them. They found this in Ben, but Ben is a devious man and is not conveying the messages as they come, which is why they need Locke. He is just a replacement. He is not the Messiah just another person who can Help Jacob.. huh?
What do you guys think.
Anyone have any ideas why the volcano lesson was false. She said that water and bicarbonate would cause the fizz reaction and she said it twice. We all know that it is acetic acid
(vinegar) and bicarbonate that causes this reaction. I know they are too smart on the show to it just being a script error. I have two thoughts it was to show either that the dharma was teaching false facts for whatever reason or my other thought is that for whatever reason the water they are giving them is very acidic and hence bitter. The water Ethan gave claire was bitter, mikhail warned his tea was gonna be bitter even though home grown tea is no excuse for this. I think it may tie to the apollo bars, if they are drugging the water hat they give dharma recruits, then it would be bitter, this wouldnt jive with a science class cuase pure water is oderless and tasteless. So they have to smudge the facts to make reality on the island fit with a reality in a science book.
Capcaom,
I saw that Twilight zone for the first time three days ago. Don't they off the guys in the end or something. I remember that the one guy goes pretty crazy with being the gahd.
The idea that Jacob is a trapped spirit (be it Magnus Hanso, or Locke in another time-loop) is intriguing. He is trapped within the volcanic ash circle (which is a vital part of the island). Maybe this spirit Jacob originally wanted to be a God to the first inhabitants of the island, but was mis-used and was led astray from the harmony with the island and now just wants out and to be left alone. Thus the "help me".
or any acid for that matter lemon juice and bicarbonate would work
2costa,
That is a good rational thought on the wtaer=fizz theory.
I think Ange or Maven or Memphish said that there is another way to do the experiment. You suspend the bicarbonate in something water soluble(sp) and then hang it over the vinegar, when you poor the water in the bicarbonate is released into the vinegar which makes the fizz.
But I like where yours goes because of the mentioned reference's to the water being bitter. This is why the Losties had to be destined to leave the caves, beause the caves had fresh water that couldn't be tainted.
Considering the speculation that tom is gonna die and denny and collen are in the finale i expect some answers as to why all these hard core others are all getting knocked off in Ben's plan. I was watching man behind the curtain last night and it almost seemed to me that when Ben was talking to Jacob his intonation when he said "He made me bring him here" it almost sounded like he meant a third person made him as in Richard made him do it. Ben could have shot locke before he brought him there which backs up the idea that even ben was curious if jacob would talk to locke
as far as ben dharma girlfreind and cusedorph saying that will be adressed maybe the sherrif(lady judged julliette) is one of the other few that were smart enough not to end up in the dharma mass grave...
the bitter drink they gave julliette too. It might contain that halucinagen that locke gave boone. There is supposed to be a magic mushroom ep too this season it must be in the final two...
Ded: I think it was Ange that talked about the volcano experiment.
the way that julliette was mute after her arrival was just like locke not being able to talk at the beginning of this season
the sherrif lady we never saw when they bugged out of the barracks which leads me to beleive that there is still another hostile base.
like i said before the messianic vision of charlie(the two marys and the dove) makes me think that they have been trying to kill him off so he couldnt do his ultimate sacrifice for the island.
Maven,
Thats what I thought, but i played it safe... lol
2Costa,
I think you are more on base with the acidic water, than it being drugged. I think that the islands water supply that the others are tapped into is very different than our water. Which is different from your water. I mean the water west of the rockies is far more alkaline than the water from the east coast is far less alkaline. The water from canada is less acidic than water here in the states, and water from Mexico KILLS YOU... lol
SO what we really need is a Dharma Geology Text Book to tell us what we need to know... lol
Ded, I was thinking of the one where in the end, the planet also has some being that are way bigger than the earthlings, and they (or the God one, I think he killed the other astronaut) is now subject to the giants. Good stuff.
Also, I don't ride on the Lost Messiah bandwagon. Usually in life, success ans survival depends on more than one person (super-being notwithstanding:-) and this is how I feel about lost too. I don't feel the need for one person to save the island, or be the leader of everyone.
Good thoughts about the volcano 2costa. It sounds better than my "plop-plop-fizz-fizz" (for you babyboomers) AlkaSeltzer theory. :o)
Pleeze ecks-kooz the typose and bad grammers. :-)
Capcom: I don't think the use of the word "messiah" as it relates to Lost is using it in it's true sense. And the word "leader" is not strong enough. The one who ultimately guides the Others/Hostiles has to be someone that connects with the island and is special. In this almost cult-like arena, it's hard not to use the words like "messiah", but I don't believe it's being used in the religious sense of the word, but someone who is "one with the island".
I like the acidic water angle. Wonder why it would be so acidic?
DeDJezter said: I have a theory in the podcast about the Hostile's slowly loosing their ability to commune with the Island and /or Jacob, So all they need is someone special to communicate for them.
I hear what you're saying. Our language is loaded with religious terms when it doesn't need to be, right? Part of it is that what you said about "needing someone special to communicate for them" is one of the defining characteristics of a messiah or a priest.
Ange=teacher volcano models are in my repertoire ;).
Also, how about sulfur? Could sulfur emissions from the volcano make the water acidic or bitter? (It is an issue with acidic air quality around a volcano.)
Interesting Volcano discussions. I know nothing about them. I did learn from 1st grade science that if you put baking soda in a balloon, carefully place the balloon onto a bottle containing vinegar, the lift the balloon so that the soda goes into the vinegar, it will blow up the balloon.
Some more interesting comments from Script Supervisor Gregg Nations:
I think the aging of Richard is not something that was forgotten about or a mistake. I think it may be an important thing to think about and see where that particular idea goes.
Ben was going to get the final flashback but yeah, it was changed. You'll see why when the finale airs.
Why all the sudden interest in Kelvin? Anyway, we saw Desmond bash Kelvin's head into the rocks. Desmond believes that Kelvin is dead, so we're going to have to go with that until we're shown or told otherwise.
Gregg acknowledges that Locke was wet in TMFT before the sub blows but as to why he responds Wait, watch and see . . .
Oh, the mobisodes. They have been somewhat of a contractual nightmare. These are new things, and I don't think the guilds and unions have landed on how they feel about them yet. I don't think you'll see them during the hiatus, but you never know.
I'll stop for now, but I'm going to keep wading through the 11 pages of posts and if I'll find anything interesting, I'll bring it over.
Right Maven, I was just answering Ded, and also refering to previous discussion of Messiah-ship theory. I guess that I haven't created a category in the Lost theory file in my brain for that kind of "bring-it-all-together" type of person yet. To me, it wouldn't have to be just one person, but that's not saying that TPTB won't go there. :-)
Very cool, Memphish!
I'm catching up on the volcano theories too. Three things sort of merged as I skimmed. Volcanic eruptions preserve things well. Volcanic eruptions make the air, possibly the water, acidic. Could TPTB be extending the volcano's preservation properties to the water of the island? Could the island be the source for the rumors about the fountain of youth?
If that is true, then how is the "cure worse than the disease" and is the infertility problem one of the side effects? And it's not just a no babies problem. Any woman who gets pregnant dies. Which would you rather be immortal or a parent?
Wait, I vote for a savior-duet, a King and a Queen to rule the island! :o)
Twink,
I always took the phrase "The cure is worse than the disease" to mean that The injections they took in the hatch is just a placebo(sp) and that the quarentine was just a fraud to keep them in. Maybe Radzinsky figured this out and wrote it down and Kelvin found out the same way Desmond did. Maybe Kelvin even killed Radzinsky in the same fashion as Desmond HURT Kelvin.
Also if the island is one that formed like the Gallopagos islands it would be all volcanic rock and very, very acidic.
I read Doc Jensen's philosophy column, Memphish. Thanks! Definitely lots of food for thought. Based on it, I really doubt TPTB will use a messiah model for the island in the end. They'll probably go for something more post-modernly obscure.
Looking at YUNG23's site is fascinating! The link from Yung23's site to his interactive map says the site has been suspended! Is there a back-up anywhere?
I'm really having a hard time seeing how Jacob could be reasonably explained with near science, like TPTB said they were going to use for everything. For me, phase shifting is for transporter accidents on Star Trek. And what's Smokey - volcanic ash that gained sentience similar to the mud monster that killed Tasha on TNG?
DeD: Good point. "The cure is worse than the disease" could be referring to the quarantine myth. I have a feeling it's central though to the overall story of Lost. Think of how many "solutions" have had unfortunate consequences or haven't turned out the way it was expected.
I always thought of "the cure is worse..." meaning, that what they give you to cure the disease or malady is almost worse than the disease itself, and you sort of wish that you wouldn't have recieved it and had taken your chances with the fighting the disease instead. Like how they practically kill you with chemo and radiation for treating cancer. :-p
2costa
I like the idea of acidic water.
I found the way Annie worded her question about the islands volcano strange.
She asked the teacher: Is that what happened to the volcano on this island. I made me think that it wasn't a normal eruption that something happened that wasn't suppose to.
That's a great guess Twinkle, about the mud-monster!
Volcanoes do make the water acidic...for a while. (I read that this morning.) What if the volcano is active and contaminating the water? Are we going to get to see a big volcanic eruption on the island at some point? That would be cool.
Capcom: LOL! I meant that I hope Smokey's not like the mud monster because I get enough of that on Star Trek. ;-P
Had a thought about the cure and the disease. I'll save most of it maybe for the next SOTL post. But if the show is partly a discussion of modernism versus postmodernism (a la the Doc Jensen philosophy column, see above), then maybe the phrase is a commentary on how post-modernism is trying to fix modernism?
"The Cure" part deux. :o) Perhaps the DI peeps contracted something from the island (the miscarriages, whatever), and they try to counter it with some kind of treatment cure. Or, it's possible that they contracted something from the island, and that the "cure" has caused the miscarriages. E.g., every woman that they bring from The World gets this malady, takes the cure, and then gets the problem. I dunno.
More from Gregg Nations:
In response to the question is Kate stupid for sleeping with Sawyer once she knows something bad happens to pregnant women or does she have birth control: (Seriously, I don't think Kate was really thinking about pregnancy at that moment. She was probably thinking, dammit someone show me some lovin', affection, emotional attention or I'm going to go crazy!!! Yes, Kate thinks with three exclamation points.)
Asked about a TLE II: I don't think it's going to happen this time around. Apparently it's been difficult finding sponsors for it. Maybe they listened to Admin's market research. :)
Ben and Juliet weren't married.
There's nothing mysterious about Jack being out for more than one day. We don't know if the Others left right when Kate was gassed and out in the jungle with Juliet. The Others could've been packing up and keeping Jack out all that time knowing they had a day (or twelve hours or whatever) before Juliet would return with Kate. No mention of Sayid though.
According to GN, the medical chart that showed Juliet's sister was a man was an error. Yes, it's a prop error. And believe me, the prop master was mortified when he realized it.
GN answered the question did Locke destroy the submarine with I don't know. What do you think?
No, you have not seen Radzinsky.
The only way Klugh could come back is in someone's flashback. Otherwise, she's dead. But I liked April Grace, too, and wish she could've stayed around longer.
"According to GN, the medical chart that showed Juliet's sister was a man was an error. Yes, it's a prop error. And believe me, the prop master was mortified when he realized it.
GN answered the question did Locke destroy the submarine with I don't know. What do you think?"
That's the difference between them squashing and untrue rumor and semiconfirming or at least wanting us to THINK about a theory. That's why when they say "It's not Purgatory," I believe them. Because they're sly about stuff: When asked why they kept killing off new characters like Mikhail and Mrs. Klugh, they responded something like "Well, you'll just have to wait and see. I think it'd be a shame if we didn't get to see any more of them this season" and voila.
dark: admitting to an OBVIOUS error in PLAIN SIGHT is different than admitting to an "end" result.
that's like saying that a producer admits to a boom mic in a frame. then turns and says "no" to someone postulating that the killer is dr. plum, in the lavatory with the candle-stick, when in actuality, that's what it was supposed to be in the script.
the reason they can still deny this is to save from revealing too much. because what they SAID was that "the show's not about purgatory". not that PURGATORY can't be PART of the story.
so, go back to discussing amongst yourself and talking about how my theory holds no water based SOLELY on, "TPTB said no".
if it's not true, so be it. i'm man enough to admit it.
i have other theories too. hahahaha. and in either case, the passengers were being brought to the island in the beginning, anyway. the "accident" was an unfortunate set of events. nothing more.
It seems like GN's standard reply to something we should be aware of or might be important to the story is: "Watch, wait and see."
heck, the show's not "ABOUT" a plane crash. however, the crash set the story in motion, didn't it?
This whole Purgatory/Not Purgatory thing reminds me of the ongoing debates on Rachel is Persephone/No she isn't from the Lost Experience last summer. No matter how many times Rachel suggested she was Persephone, there were many who were sure that she was lying.
I guess we'll see...eventually. And then we can tar and feather Damon and Carlton for lying to us, if need be. Or eat healthy helpings of humble pie.
With Dharma whipped topping, of course!
i'll stick to my Joop Loops
or Valenzetti-O's.......
.....or Blake's Flakes....
or perhaps an instant DHARMA-Meal. just pop in the microwave and set to 1:08.
Dharma pop-tarts? LOL
This was a ways back, but:
capcom said...
Maybe the Pearl station was set up to monitor the Swan peeps, to make sure that the plan to man the station to keep pushing the button was working. The Pearl people thought that it was a psych exercise, and were not told the seriousness of the Swan team's task. But, then, why all the unread notebooks in the field?
I've had an idea that the tube originally emptied out into the Door station, but the Others moved the station itself over near the beach (where Michael saw it near the end of last season). That was why when Sayid opened the door there was nothing inside. They only moved the pieces elsewhere, and left the pile of notebooks and the tube sticking out of the ground.
Happy Mother's day everyone!
Barbarajay,
I mentioned the Galopagos Islands before as reference to the acidic land, but also because of how they form. Using them as a model. We find that the Lost Island has aged. The Island forms and as it does it drifts off of the lava spout under water. The Shape of the Lost Island suggests a massive Volcano at one point and a mini volcano (Le Cratere) at another. So the Island forms into a giant volcano, then shift. It then forms the ini volcano which attches to the original, then that shifs as well. After that it starts to form another one, but this one drifts faster and moves before it can form into a volcano and becomes Alcatraz. The set up of the Island suggests a chain event in formation, so this could be how it formed. If this is true they are in no danger of an eruption nytime soon, since there is no Caldera underneath it.
Wheeeew that was a mouthful.
Amused,
I always imagined Humble pie more as a meat dish than as a dessert. So no whipped topping for me thanks... lol
DeDJeZTeR said...I always imagined Humble pie more as a meat dish than as a dessert. So no whipped topping for me thanks... lol
I guess that would be Humble Shepherd Pie ... which brings us back to Jacob!
Ded, it was a mouthful but darned interesting.
megan said...
and on that note..my first thought seeing alpert was "hanso foundation..life extension project"! haha. that has got to mean something because he does NOT naturally look that way still. ben was at least 11, and probably older, when they got to the island and that was definitely in the early 70s [as evidenced by the amount of hippies lol].
I agree on the Life Extension Project theory. Also, if we go back to last summer's ARG, we learned that the Dharma Initiative failed and lost it's funding in 1987... It's probably safe to assume that the hostiles gassed the village in 1987. At least we can guestimate how long Ben has been in charge that way.
Re: The LoCo Book Club
Melissa_Lossa, I had a thought. Do you think it would be a good idea to post the titles on Amazon's Listmania? I've never done it but it looks easy. I did a search and there's only one list of LOST books and it's out-of-date and includes some books that are a stretch to relate to LOST.
WISHING ALL LOCO MOMS A HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY
Hope everyone has a nice day with their families!
Just a quick pop-in to say:
HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY, LOCOS!!!!!
I've enjoyed reading all the posts and there are some great ideas here. I'm especially liking maven's & 2costa's ideas.
Is there someone here who could expand upon a theory that would involve the coming tsunami and the volcano? I have NO knowledge of such things, but wouldn't it be cool if they tied it in somehow? Could we even tie in the heavy water clue from TLE with this? Also cool if the original eruption of the volcano is how the Black Rock got on the island and may explain who/what Jacob is... that maybe he's Magnus Hanso and stuck there in time.
Capcom Said -
Thinking more about your theories Fenris, I kind of mushed some of them together a little. What if the Black Rock in its voyage (way back when) hit some kind of weird force field that the island emanates (like the electro/magnetic/gravitational Philly X field), it ended up in the middle of the island (far from the water), and somehow Magnum H. got pulled into the floating midrange of existance like the sailors in the Philly-X, and became Jacob? Although, I really don't have an explanation for why he changed his name."
That sounds possible and like the idea of bringing Magnus Hanso into it! I kinda suspect that the rest of the others have not heard Jacob speak, which is why Ben was given the status he has been given. So if there was some mysterious disapearing person that showed visions of the future the others may assume it was some kind of prophecised volcano god that their ancestors had worshiped.
RE: The volcano experiment:
My daughter is about to conduct that experiment in our kitchen with a volcano she made out of clay and baking soda, vinegar, and food coloring.
I'll let you know how it goes!
<:-)
Slow today on the comment board...
Anyway, you can see the results of my little engineer's
volcano science experiment.
Happy Mother's Day to all the LoCo Moms
engineer27
Your daughter did a fine job with her valcano.
argh! volcano
Barbarajay, if we don't get a separate site for the bookclub, that would be a good idea about an Amazon list. Even if we do though, it's a good idea. What the heck, it doesn't cost anything. :-)
Engineer: So cute! Thanks for sharing. Hope that grout wasn't too difficult to clean up! :-)
Engineer: Cute volcano video!
Hope all had a great Mother's Day. After a nice brunch, I sat down to rewatch the episode (what else would I like to do? LOL). Some observations on second viewing:
1. The volcano that shaped the island was "a long time ago."
2. DI is not sure who the natives are (per Horace).
3. When Locke walks in with AC's body, there is a shot of Alpert seemingly in awe/astonishment...gave me a feeling that Alpert looks upon Locke differently now.
4. Ben is constantly trying to make himself more important...claiming that Jacob on appears only to him, etc.
5. There is a shot of some supplies for DI sitting in a gray boat on land during when Ben and Dad arrive. So there must be boats available.
6. Annie sure has a lot of freckles (a la Kate?).
7. When Roger asks Ben why he keeps looking at his watch, he says that Ben doesn't need to be anywhere. "It's not like you have a date." Either he doesn't know about Annie, or Annie has left the island already.
8. What was in papers and notebooks with Horace on the bench after the purge? There was a composition notebook on the bench.
9. Shouldn't there have been more jungle browth on the DI corpse pit? Unless it's kind of a shrine?
10. Why was there one skull with a bullet hole?
Happy Mother's Day, LoCos!
Barbara (who is in a yummy steak dinner coma and looking forward to a white chocolate/raspberry cake dessert)
maven...10. Why was there one skull with a bullet hole?
Screencap, please?
Engineer: Here is the screencap off of Dark UFO.
maven: wow, thanks.
My guess: since this one was obviously on the top of the pile, it must have been one of the last to go. So that would be.....
Radzinski
Engineer: I thought of that, too. He's about the only person we know died from a gun to the head (remember the stain?). But, according to Kelvin (who is not known to be truthful), he buried Radzinski. Isn't the Swan pretty far from Dharmatown and the Dharma grave? Wasn't Alpert was also wearing a gun the day of the purge (he had one when he ran into young Ben). He could have finished off some Dharma worker if the gas didn't work.
But the radzinsky stain was on the ceiling indicating that he shot himself up through under his chin. If that's the case, it's not Radzinsky.
How about one of Danielle's people? She may have shot some of them, if her story is true.
Well, there were a lot of people running around there with guns! LOL
Yeah... my guess is a stragler or two . Maybe some Couple went for a walk and came back to the hostiles standing over everyones dead bodies.
My guess for Radzinsky has always been that Kelvin shot him, in the chin, putting the stain on the ceiling. Probably when Kelvin found out that Radzinsky had been doing the same thing as He did to Desmond.
More interesting posts by Gregg Nations. You thought I'd been through them all, but no.
I think Kelvin really was Dharma.
I would say yes, Sayid tortured Amira.
All right, now I've read them all and I'll leave everyone with this so that you'll have a week and 1/2 to get your recording devices ready.
And getting back to the concept of the game changer, if it adds anything to the confusion I have something to contribute. You may want to make sure you record the season finale because you'll want to rewatch it immediately. It's a game changer.
hey memphish
I think Kelvin is Dharma too. I Download my eps seeing i am in Australia its the only way i can keep up. But usually i watch them about 5 times before the next one and i have rewatched seasons one and two at least three times each. Any conformation on book club dates and titles. I still havent got my theories from TMBTC aoll together yet if anyone is around i would love a chat
Hey Black_Rock. I feel the same way about MBTC. I'm having a hard time processing it all. Sorry I can't hang around and chat this morning. I've got to go on a field trip.
As for the Book Club, there was a post somewhere in this thread, I think by Melissa_Lossa with a final order. The first book is Watership Down. No word yet on how we're going to go about discussing it.
Hey locos... long time, no see. Just checking in and catching up on the comments.
Morning all!
It better be "Watership Down"! I only have about 75 pages to go! LOL
LOL Maven, that gives you enough time to reread it once and this time take notes relating to Lost themes (at least that my plan)!
I hope everyone had a pleasant Mother's Day. I especially hope that day was not too painful for those who have lost their moms, and especially if this is your first Mother's Day after her passing. You were in my prayers all day yesterday.
Wouldn't you know it, I bought A Winkle in Time this weekend and have it about half read. Not to mention...I looked like and idiot at Barnes and Noble. I was searching for the book and the lady came to assist me; after telling her what I was looking for she said "Oh! That is a childs book in the childrens section." Guess I could have said it was for a grandchild but I looked at her like and idiot. Duhhhhhh
Is there going to be a podcast this week?
I bet Vincent is visiting with Jacob.
Yeah whats up with the pod cast?
I didn't hold back all my theories so that I could let everyone else get to them before I did? Which has already hapened twice now... lol
Bring on the Pod cast yo!
j/k
cattygirl... that would explain where Vincent has been. Doesn't Jacob had a picture of a dog hanging in his cabin?
Hello LoCo's! I'm having a sterotypical Monday-ugh!!! But I was hoping the podcast was up. Oh well. It's interesting to hear what GN had to say. Will make double sure to record the finale.
Sorry if this already got posted but what if the gray sand ring is not to keep Jacob in, but something or someone else out?
There's no podcast because cerrtian members of the lost community want me to quit doing the darn thing! Angie Q get some guts and face me as a human freaking being!
We do one bad episode and I get so much grief!!! That Sucks!!
When did you guys EVER do bad episode?
You guys rock!
I like your podcasts and you have come a long way since the very first one anyone tried. Keep it going please. Remember it's going to be a long break from Season Finale to new season.
Passafist,
What's up? You guys are the best freaking Lost podcast out there. When did you catch grief? What did I miss here? Is there more than one critic?
Passafist,
I know about 800 subsribers and countless other direct downloaders who are really going to miss you guys if you go. We've only got 2 episodes left and then you've got a good long break. What can I do to help? We LOVE YOU GUYS!
Passafist, I gotta echo the love positive sentiments. As long as you love doing the show, you should keep at it. There are tons of us who look forward to it each week and think you guys do an awesome job!
If you've no love left for the podcast, that's one thing, but don't let the critics get ya down! We appreciate all you've done and I know I'll continue to support you guys as long as you want to fill my iPod with Losty goodness.
I am a few days behind so bear with me.
I have seen a lot of discussion as to why there were food drops after the purge. If you remember, at the flame when John saw the list of options after playing chess, one of them was to order a food drop. It looks to me like Mikhail has been ordering food drops from the flame since the purge. Now since 77 has been entered and the Flame has been razed, there are no more DI food drops coming. This would be another reason why the Others are leaving Old Dharmaville for parts unknown (no more conveinient supplies falling from the skies.)
Passafist: WOW! Where did that come from? We ALL love you and the Goog! Don't get discouraged by a few...look forward to you every week.
BTW: Happy Belated Birthday, Kimber!
Also, just heard the news that a private company just purchased Chrysler. Guess what the name of the company is....CERBERUS! Smokey sure does get around! LOL
Passafist,
Who ever said you had to be what others wanted you to be?
Who is this AngieQ and where do I contact Them. If someone is talking S, They need to be put in their place.
You guys do an awsome job on these things and they are better than any other out there. You give it a rofessional flair that all the others so severely lack. Please keep up the good work and let the critics lie in the beds they make. Their all just pompous blowhards who couldn't write their way out of a paper bag.
"You can't be let down, if you don't expect the world."---311
The critics could learn from that one line.
And besides, I was just getting into it. Who are they to stop you.
DeD
Rescue???
Our Daughter & Son-in- Law left today with our 2 delightful Grandsons.It was great, but much harder than we expected.Miss them already.
So being about 1000 comments & a few podcasts behind,I've still got some pearling to do.(Loved the last few episodes though.)
Bye for now,
Village
Hey, Takes a village: Welcome back to the real world!
Sorry I forgot your birthday Kimber!
Please don't gas us all and join the Others :)
Sorry guys I've had a pretty crappy day with family problems that have really gotten me down, and I recieved a few e-mails and a particulary nasty itunes comment that really dug into my already fragile spirit. I'll have the podcast posted early tomorrow, (I came into some technical problems, and Dennis did an awesome episode recap). I realize that my comments seemed curt, but I'm pretty much falling apart personally, I'll never let this happen again!
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