I don't know about you guys but I am loving these consecutive episodes without any breaks! Tonight, we are told that Claire becomes suspicious of Charlie's peculiar behavior, while tensions mount between Sayid and Locke. I'm curious to see how the writers will try to make us laugh now that they have their hands tied with Sawyer's name-calling gag order.
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
PAR AVION - SEASON 3, EPISODE 12
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1 – 200 of 285 Newer› Newest»Hey here it is. I'm glad everything is ok. Now to the show
Wow, 2nd!!!!
Patchy smirking at Locke & Sayid like Ben smirked at Locke & Jack.
I'm sooooo jealous of you guys watching it now. I've got almost 3 hours to go! :( See ya'll later! (At least those still awake!)
Ok that' the second time Danielle has interupted him. She knows something.
Ok what's up with Locke? Does he know something or is he really becoming that stupid?
Good grief... that was interesting.
what the heck is up with locke?
yeah, no surprise with claire's story there
this episode is coming to an end far too quickly. i could watch this show for hours on end.
ditto, tim
Great minds :) I was just thinking the same thing.
Locke is acting oddly because he thinks the Others will be able to tell him how the island gave him his ability to walk back. I don't know if that explains why he blew up the Flame Hatch, but it does explain his motivation beyond getting Jack.
Potential spoilers in this post for you west coasters.
Well... an interesting episode. As always, no answers, just more questions.
They really left us hanging with Locke, Kate and Sayid. I hope to see more of that next week, it's the most interesting part!
1. What's with that fence, and how does it still work?
2. Holy crap Jack!!!!!!
3. What the heck is up with Locke? He's acting even stranger than before. I think he's losing it.
4. More about the list... will we learn more about that soon?
5. So are they going to kill Charlie, or what?
6. Fly seagull, fly!
Jack's playing football!!!!!
Well Jack has made himself right at home hasn't he.
Boy, those 10 seconds of Jack made this episode so much more interesting.
Perhaps Jack is an Other and always has been...
Wow! Locke killed Mikhail to protect his secret! Great setup.
Locke, so weird. He definitely didn't want Patchy to tell Sayid and Kate about him being paralized. Can't wait til next week!
I like the idea of locke killing him on purpose to protect his "secret" (though I think it might be on a whole other level than we think – how did he become paralyzed? did he do something really awful?)
And how do the others get through that fence if it's all the way around?
Interesting Claire said (about the car accident) that the truck came out of nowhere
I have to say though, why the heck tell us that Dr. Shepherd is Claire's father if she's just going to say "I don't want to know your name"???? What's the dang point?? Unless Jack needs a kidney like Locke's dad, this little unsurprising tidbit is mere trivia.
tim, interesting .,. what did Locke do?
I think the others just get out their walkies and tell somebody to disable the fence
fysb, I agree. I kind of wondered about that beforehand - whether "we" would find out or "Claire" would.
And I hereby make this official theory: Locke has killed someone in his past. Father? Estranged fiance?
That was the greatest! Everyone at the Penuel house loved that episode...
fysb, it makes it really suspicious to me that Jack and Claire were on the same plane
Tim...concur on the past Locke kill. He did it way too easy tonight for it to be his first time. With the daddy issues he's had, his father is a likely target.
Well, what can you expect from Jack? It's classic Stockholm syndrome. Hopefully he'll come to his senses when SayidLockeKate meet up with him. But it's possible that seeing Kate again just alienates him more- (remember "I need to get the hell off this island!"?) and if he's been promised a ticket off, who knows what he might do.
And here we thought Locke was just a bumbling idiot.
Oh, cody's mom, that's something I hadn't considered. Same plane, same dead dad. Oh the Freudian slips that could ensue. That's way too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence.
And hey David! Good to see you around!
I'm thinking something that would cause him severe psychological anguish, enough so to possibly paralyze him. That or something physically happened to him in the act.
It just makes me think he killed his fiance after she left him.
Why not? Most others on the island are murderers from their past life.
yeah, fsyb. She didn't even know her dead dad was on the plane. creepy
After seeing Patchy's ugly demise, maybe it's a good thing Lost is on at 10 now
Tim, maybe he was going after his dad and killed Peg Bundy by accident. There's a load of guilt for ya. Or he was going to kill his dad and he had the choice of killing his dad or saving Peg and let Peg die.
What can I say? I grew up on General Hospital and All My Children.
very viable! I guess we'll see if our theory is vindicated next week.
Hello, admin (David). Yes, loved the episode. A good subject for stories of the lost would be Claire's decision to keep her mom alive. Who was right, Christian or Claire?
fysb
Hey I stil watch those soaps. I grew up on them too.
Yeah that death was pretty gross.
On the lighter side. Did you see Sun give Sawyer a look when he started to call Claire Barbie? :)
I wonder why Patchy thanked John for sending him through the force field? Was he grateful not to have to face Benry et al? Or grateful not to be tortured into telling something by Sayid?
good question, fysb. I'm betting grateful he didn't have to face Benry.
I don't know. Some said last week that he was suppose to kill Bea and then killed himself but Locke and stopped him. He asked Sayid to end it and kill him.
I'll give you the cancer cure, yakobus, but if Locke's paralysis is psychosomatic, then he's taking and giving the cure on his own.
Wow, friends, tonight was great! We got a little of a lot of things this ep....a little jungle, a little beach, some Others and some Losties, a flashback, and SOME CROSS-LOSTIE COMMUNICATION! Or you could call it explaination, between Dez and Claire about his visions and Charlie's danger. Wowowowow!
I'm getting very creeped out by Locke, and the preview made it even more so.
TPTB must have a plan to set up Jack and Claire figuring things out in the future. It shouldn't be that difficult for J and C to put the pieces together if they ever get to talk about father issues. Sawyer figured it out that one time. But I did also get frustrated when she didn't get his name. TPTB sure know how to push our buttons...in a good way. :o)
I agree, that last shot with Jack and his brand new Brady Bunch life was very creepy. It just had to be though, that Kate would not find the same Jack that she left, if she ever went over to Otherville to get him.
Didn't we see last week that Locke grabbed something square-ish and put it in his bag when he rushed out? I thought that it looked like one of the C4 blocks, but I didn't think that it really was, I thought I was seeing things. I'll go back and look again. At any rate, I was not expecting him to lie to Sayid about having anything like that. Sayid needs to ask John whose side he's on anyway!
Well, I can't wiat for everyone's theories and comments this week! :-D
Sorry about the typing errors.
he was suppose to kill Bea and then kill himself butLocke stopped him. There does that make more sense?
capcom said,
I agree, that last shot with Jack and his brand new Brady Bunch life was very creepy. It just had to be though, that Kate would not find the same Jack that she left, if she ever went over to Otherville to get him.
This relates to what Danielle said to Kate about why she wasn't asking questions about her daughter; that she maybe doesn't want to know the answers (do I have that right?)
You're right Aardvark, it is classic Stockholm. Good call.
Codysmom, I thought that too about Jack and Claire being in the same place, but then.....his mistress was dying in Oz, he dies there, Jack goes to get him, Jack and Claire are on the same continent. But it could have been planned too.
You have to hand it to TPTB....they get us all wound up about Locke for a few weeks, and then they are going to sock-it-to-us with his story thing and the Ben thing (no spoilers, I erased it!) next week. Nice. :o) TPTB really do love us.
Before I go watch that again, can someone tell me where was Claire working? I kind of missed that part. It looked like a tatoo parlor?
Oh, you're right Codysmom, but how could Kate have known or thought so shortly after?! But we knew! :-)
weird though, what's it been since they left jack? a couple days? Surely no more than a week.
And Dolenore, I like it. The crossover is perfect, and fits. Just need to figure out how he gets paralyzed in the process!
Heh, you're right, another tattoo parlor. But this one looked like it was in a mall. Hey, another coincidence with Frere-Jaques
I want to watch the Christian in Australia ep again
Remember Jack's promise to Juliet that they were going to make Ben stick to his promise to get them off the island. Jack's just playing nice with the others waiting for his opportunity of escape.
I think so too Carissa. He also sometimes seems to let his guard down when he's not feeling crabby.
Capcom, you're right. Let's hope he has brains enough not to let his guard TOO down!
BTW, that zapper fence looked totally gnarly, I can't wait to see the caps from the ep. There wasn't much to the posts at all, but it was pure dilapidated-Dharma-manufactured-industrial-creepiness.
Gosh, there are already spoilers and previews from other countries out for Locke's ep next week. I am not going to look, I want to be completely surprised. It will be worth it.
Sawyer knows Hurly is Hugo, just a matter of time until he puts the bottle note with the big guy.
Locke asked why James chose “Sawyer” but the story was interrupted by Michael being taken, shots fired.- good point dolenore.
Son of a Lostie, Claire and Jack. Will they find their dad’s body. He wouldn’t be recognizable in that heat, for 80 days, right?
Can’t wait for next week.
When’s the IN GAME going to start back up, ANYONE HEARD???
Keesh, I forgot, what did Hurley write in his bottle note for the raft?
And ew, Christian rotting. :-p I'm surprised they haven't found where he was flung in the crash, just by the smell!
BTW, welcome back Inengland!
I've wondered this ever since the episode where Jack came upon his dad's empty coffin- was it supposed to imply that the body had been flung somewhere, taken by something/someone? I always took it to mean that either Jack or the airline had removed the body beforehand- because Jack was so insistent about "burying his father" and moving on, but the airline regulations wouldn't permit him to transport the coffin. So they took out the body and just put the coffin in. But it's reasonable as well that his body was flung somewhere, I just wonder why seeing the empty coffin made Jack so angry.
Good questions and speculations Aardvark, we do pretty much know (as much as we can "know" anything) that Christian is dead, since Jack had to ID him, unless they purposely showed Jack a frozen dummy. OR, unless they showed Jack his father's BAD TWIN who was the real man who had the affair with Claire's mother and the one who died! Mabye that's why TPTB didn't have him tell Claire what his name is??!!
If he is dead (and there's no twin), there's also the possibility that C's corpse was flung into the ocean during the break-up and/or decent before impact as well. I hope that he is still alive, that would be juicy.
Hopefully this season we might also find out who is the mysterious waving shadow figure in the S2 DVD extras that links Jack, Claire and Christian. The bad twin perhaps??
capcom said...TPTB must have a plan to set up Jack and Claire figuring things out in the future. It shouldn't be that difficult for J and C to put the pieces together if they ever get to talk about father issues.
My guess is that Jack and Claire are both going to see their father (smokey) on the island at the same time... like Kate and Sawyer the horse together. Jack is going to say "do you know that man? DO YOU!?!" and Claire is going to say "That's my father!" DUN DUN DUHHHH....
LuckyGuyLikeMe said...Also, since he had some C4 with him, does this implicate him in having knowledge that entering 77 would indeed blow up The Flame?
Yes. There must have been more video than what we saw after John entered 77. He knew what was going to happen - he didn't even look surprised. John is not quite as dumb as he seems :)
Wow what an episode! That was so good. Going to catch up on commments and then will be back for whoever is still here.
How would you explain the four-toed statue and the Black Rock. These seem to indicate that the island has been around (and inhabited) for a very long time.
omgoodness, that was awesome!
At least it sort of redeemed my buddy Locke...I really was disturbed by his STOOPID behavior last week. I had a hard time believing he could be that STOOPID. And now it appears he wasn't, after all. Crazy like a fox, that's my man Locke!
I hope the Christian Shepard vision thing happens to Claire and Jack. That would be a wow and a half. But it probably won't. Just some more stuff for us to know, like all the other cross-overs, that the Losties will never know. Like Jack choosing to save Sarah and thereby choosing to lose Shannon's dad. Etc...
So, they've only been on the island 80 days? Hmm, that's not very long, is it? Getting close to Christmas? Will they have a Christmas episode, or at least one where someone mentions the holiday? Don't tell me the plane was filled with non-religious people except for the one Muslim. Lost requires suspension of disbelief, but that's going too far for me!
I think TPTB are going to reveal to Jack and Claire that they are sibs later on- I agree with Dennis- think that they will both see Smokey/Christian at the same time.
So I guess that the woman we saw Christian arguing with at the end of season 2 in Sydney, wasn't Claire's mom, but instead was Claire's aunt.
Note- at the end of the ep Claire included in the note that they had been on the island 80 days. Just another timeline clarification from TPTB.
I wonder if Jack has spent time in room 23 since Kate and Sawyer have been gone. I don't care how good the Others have been to him in the past few days, or if Ben has promised to let him off the island- I still don't think he would be happily playing football with Tom. Something is just too weird with that.
In the preview for next week, it showed Locke pretty banged up like he had been in an accident. So looks like there was something traumatic that caused his paralysis.
Re: Locke- I don't think he's too weird. I think he has questions and is doing whatever it takes to get those answers. I thought that the Locke we saw tonite was more of the take charge bad a** Locke from season 1. And, I guess we know that blowing up the flame was not just an accident- he apparently knew exactly what he was doing. hmmmm but why- now that is the question.
Also, what is it that Patchy was saying about Locke before Danielle interrupted (right before they found the security fence). He was saying that the John Locke he knew was....sounds like he said para- then he was cut off. Para- what? Is that what Patchy said? Also, how does Patchy know so much about them? And I guess we all know that none of them was on the list- but I thought Kate was on the list. Why did they kidnap Kate and Jack if they weren't on "the list" and was Sawyer on "the list"? Also, guess Ben is not the head honcho, although not a big surprise. Guess we need to figure out who Jacob is. Also, did anyone else pick up on the way Patchy was looking at Locke? Locke is definitely hiding something.
Scoutpost: Locke is definitely hiding something, I agree! Patchy was going to say 'paralyzed'. And Danielle interrupted him...suspicious, don't you think? Was that intentional on her part?
Oh,and speaking of the crazy French chick: I don't buy the line she handed Kate about why no questions re Alex. I probably would want to hear everything...what does she look like, how did you meet her, how did she help you escape, why did she help you...Tell me everything!
On the other hand, what could Kate tell Danielle? Maybe what Alex looks like, but really Kate didn't quite get to talk to Alex much. She could tell her about Chachi, I mean Karl. Or the hot shot Alex is with a rock and a sling shot.
Grr. These Losties don't communicate!
Ahh para- lyzed! Thanks amused. That is so obvious, I guess my mind was trying to make it something more mysterious! LOL
Well Maven ought to be around soon. LOST should just now be winding up in CA.
scoutpost said... And I guess we all know that none of them was on the list- but I thought Kate was on the list. Why did they kidnap Kate and Jack if they weren't on "the list" and was Sawyer on "the list"?
Different list. None of them (including Jack) were on Jacob's list. The list of people "without flaws" apparently.
The Ms. Klugh list was just so they could get Ben back... and Jack.
I'll see you all in the morning. Good night!
Thanks Dennis-
so this "flawless" list- guess this is why they take children? Because they are "flawless" while they are young. But this also makes me wonder why they tried to take Eko. Wasn't he being dragged away when he killed the 2 men who were kidnapping him? I wonder if that had to do with the list, and if so, why is Eko "flawless"- OR were the 2 guys just dragging Eko off to kill him?
Ok well seems like no one else is left- so off to bed for me! See all you LoCo's in the am!
Yes, I'm here...but awfully tired!
Great epi with more questions!
Something is definitely up with Locke! He must have a masterplan!
So it's confirmed that Jack and Claire are siblings. Why wouldn't she want to know her Daddy's name?
The things that struck me as odd...When Patchy was talking about the magnificant man who brought "all of my people" here. Apparently, he was not the only one recruited when he was 24...who else came with him to the island?
Agreed that Patchy knew Locke was paralyzed...could that be why Locke pushed him. Also agree that death was pretty grisly!
Interesting that Desmond told Claire everything. Guess he knows how close Charlie and Clair are to each other. Maybe the two of them and help change Charlie's destiny.
That was an awfully long note to attach to the bird's leg! LOL
More later, when I'm more awake!
I know it's really late even for the west coasties but I can't sleep. It's been a while since I've posted and I haven't been able to lurk much either.
I liked this episode. Locke definitely has a different agenda than Kate and Sayid. I think he's going after Ben. Ben told him all that bull about how he was on his way to get Locke when he got caught in Danielle's trap. Ben knows how to push Locke's buttons and I think Locke is looking for a little revenge.
Another option is that Locke believes the island has cured him but he doesn't know if the cure will stick if he leaves the island; so he may just be looking for that answer along with a boat load of other questions.
I basically see it that there are only a few if any of the losties that can/will leave the island. Kate and Sawyer can't they are fugitives (I'm sure the Aussies have put it together by now that Sawyer was involved with the murder he committed.) Charlie won't leave because he's found some peace on the island (freedom from the drugs)and the chance to have a family; I think family is very important to Charlie. Claire beleives that the psychic knew the plane was going to crash or knew where it was really going and she knows that she has to protect Aaron and raise him herself; I think she'll eventually choose to stay. We all know that Rose and Barnard are never leaving the island. Sayid has nothing to go back to so I don't think he'll leave either. Sun and Jin too are finding peace on the island as well as the opportunity to start a family, something they couldn't do anywhere else and Sun's father can't find them, remember they both were running away; Jin from his father-in-law and Sun from Jin. Hurley doesn't really want to go home either; he's had nothing but trouble since he won the lottery; on the island he can be himself.
okay, have I forgotten anyone?
I think Locke may be trying to destroy any possible means of leaving the island; he has it in his head that they are all there for a reason; if anyone leaves he will never find the reason for it all. I'm sure he has figured out that he is responsible for taking out the com-link to the outside world; and some how blowing up that last station plays into his scheme.
sorry for the long, long post. I don't know how much I'll be around. I'm no longer working because I'm getting weaker as the weeks go by. I am taking a trip next week; that once in a lifetime trip. I'm feeling a little anxious about it; maybe that's what has me up and logged in at 3:14AM in indiana.
tlcm, I'm so sorry that your strength is waning. I hope your trip revives your stamina. Hang in there! ::says a prayer::
Good points about all wanting to stay for some reason. I guess only N*kki and P*olo might have a reason to want to leave. (Although Sayid may still want to find Nadia, so he might actually have a reason to resume his life).
Good Morning! I loved that episode. I just could not sleep last night. Thoughts though on Locke and Sayid. It seems that they know a few too many convenient things:
Where the Flame was, that there was C4 there, just where the door in the floor was, that Patchy was not alone, Locke seemed to almost know what the fence would do (and was glib about it after shoving Patchy through). I think they are looping just like Desmond. Also I think FYSB (Hi by the way) said it way up there...what is the reason for Jack and Clair being siblings? Neat and freaky-deaky for sure...but is there a reason?
Hey Guys,
Since this is community, I thought I'd shar this article from Today's Washington Post. I'm quoted a bunch of times...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/14/AR2007031402465_3.html?sub=AR
it's not lost related! Just cool, for me!! Alright I'm tooting my own horn. Stop staring at me!!
This episode was excellent. Although the bird letter scene made me think of The Breakfast Club, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and the thought "how is that thing gonna take off with that note hanging off its leg?" Kinda jarring. But an awesome episode, regardless.
For a glimpse into Locke's motivations to get to Ben, his condition's reversal and his presence on this Island, check out SpoilerFix for the main guest star in Locke's episode next week.
Passafist,
Great article! Very cool. Thanks for sharing.
FYI Everybody,
I'll be working on getting a storiesofthelost.com post up in about an hour...sorry about skipping last week. I was out traveling.
Hey everyone!
From quickly flying through the comments, it looks as though this episdoe was AWESOME. I have seen Patchy die, and read the storyline. So I kinda know what happens.
as for Jack and Claire finding out - will Jack one day sing the song that Claire was singing to Aaron?? She'll say where did you hear that... you know the rest. Or even the Others will announce it, they know everthing else. Jack might even see the Booklet the Juliet had when he was in the Hydra. The second Page might say in big letters "CLAIRE IS YOUR SISTER". You never know!
How likely is it that the letter on the bird will actually work?! Good Idea Claire...
Jack playing football?! Sounds like the sort of thing Hurley should be doing!!! He likes the fun side of things! But creepy. still, is jack pretending, but formulating a plan to escape?!
this has all probably been covered already. Can't wait to see the ep and start my brain going again!!!
IEAL
Oh and Hey Capcom, Thanks for the welcome back. I never really left, just lurked a bit!
Trouble being in England, you guys are rarely on when I am. And what with Dark Angel being blocked, I end up talking to myself!!!
Good morning LoCos!
What a good episode!!!
The new Lost And Found moments are up at ABC.com/lost. Use 888-258-3741 to login.
Good morning Locos. Just wanted to say it was a most excellent episode last night... going to catch up on the comments.
Scoutpost said...So this "flawless" list- guess this is why they take children? Because they are "flawless" while they are young. But this also makes me wonder why they tried to take Eko. Wasn't he being dragged away when he killed the 2 men who were kidnapping him? I wonder if that had to do with the list, and if so, why is Eko "flawless"- OR were the 2 guys just dragging Eko off to kill him?
Maybe they didn't know about his "true" past. They might have only known he was a priest. I'm guessing killing those two guys got him taken right off the list :)
Morning All
amused2bhere
I think Danielle interupted Patchy on pupose that's the second time she did it. She also interupeted him when he was telling Sayid that when they let his guard down he would kill them all. He was saying, You should know this before you make... and then Danielle says making a excellent point, you have a map why keep him alive. I don't know what he was going to say but she definately stopped him. I think they know each other and he was suppose to kill Bea and then himself but was stopped. He had asked Sayid to finish it and kill him. I think that's what Danielle wanted to do that for him.
Maven
I'm just wondering who "all his people were" and why a whole group were important enough to be recruited. And yes I think Locke pushed Patchy because he knew Locke had been paralyzed. Locke has been working his own agenda since they left to get Jack and has been lying since he left the Flame Station. I not sure I'm going to like his motives they're pobably going to be pretty selfish.
dennis
If you can believe Goodwin he told Ana that they took out the strong ones first so it would be easier to get the "unflawed" people on the list.
Also...the new post is up on storiesofthelost.com. Here's what it says...if you want to discuss these things, head on over!
Many things struck me while watching "Par Avion". I couldn't land on just one for this post so here is this week's list. There should be plenty to talk about!
1. Claire's discovery of the truth about her father resonated with me. Don't we all discover rattling truths about our family of origin as time goes by? We've chatted this one up before.
2. The introduction of the topic of the ethics of life support brought on by the conflict between Christian Shephard and Claire over coffee. We haven't hit on this yet but I'm sure we could talk this one to death!
3. Claire's touching newfound appreciation of her mother which was brought on by her own pregnancy. The way tears of remorse represented a cleansing of Claire's guilt towards the end of the episode.
4. Finally, Christian Shepherd's statement, "There is hope and there is guilt. Believe me, I know the difference." I love the way this statement encapsulates the fine line between hope and guilt that practically all of the survivors on the island are walking. Surely it is a line that all of us walk as well.
Claire's note. Read by Charlie. Last line.
"We are alive. Please don't give up on us."
With all the talk in the media of slipping ratings, growing disinterest, frustrated viewership, conflict over an agreeable end point, etc...I took this line and this INCREDIBLE episode as a message from TPTB. This drama is alive. There is hope. Don't give up on this incredible body of work called "Lost"! Don't ever give up!
Just my 2 cents worth...
When Locke pushed Patchy through the security fence -- Patchy said earlier that it hasn't worked for years. I think Locke pushed him to see if he was telling the truth. Well, of course, we know now that he was lying, has been the whole time. I think he was taking a chance that if the fence did work, Patchy would die and his secret would be safe.
Speaking of Patchy lying, why on earth would Kate believe him when she asked "Why don't you just tell us if we're going in the right direction" and he said "Yes, you're going in the right direction." Even though he was right, I just can't believe she would take his word for it.
Jack at the end. I'm not sure what to make of it. Did he visit Room 23 and got brainwashed? Is he just making nice til he leaves the island? I guess we'll find out more next week.
The tagged birds. I think the Others are keeping track of them.
Finally, I just wanted to say...
Poor Tom. He totally throws like a girl. Go back and watch it in slow motion...It's just sad.
I don't think Jack got brainwashed. I think he truly believes that, once Ben gets well, he will be sent home. He's just hanging out making the best of a bad situation.
I'm sure things aren't all happy-football-time-with-Tom every minute of every day. I think last night they just wanted to create moment of tension by allowing us to see Kate, Sayid, & Lock witness Jack in just one instance where he was finally relaxing. I'm sure Jack still has an agenda that he is carefully watching over.
ib4uc said: When Locke pushed Patchy through the security fence -- Patchy said earlier that it hasn't worked for years. I think Locke pushed him to see if he was telling the truth. Well, of course, we know now that he was lying, has been the whole time. I think he was taking a chance that if the fence did work, Patchy would die and his secret would be safe.
I still can't get it out of my head that Locke knew exactly what would happen. Like he has seen it before...just like Des. He also didn't use the explosives on the fence, and I kinda think he knew something awful would happen if he did, because he has seen it. I also think that is why he went to play chess while he was supposed to be guarding Patchy (last week)...he knew that winning the game would unlock the 77 command, just like Des knew where the bird would be. Onb his own agenda...absolutely, I just think he knows things before they happen.
sayid'sgirl said: I think they know each other and he was suppose to kill Bea and then himself but was stopped.
Agreed...Danielle is so fishy, and I agree, she does/did know Patchy, and I also think she is connected seriously to everything going on on the island.
I'm leaning more and more towards Danielle being an other. When she captured Ben she told Sayid don't believe him everything he says is a lie. She said the same thing to Kate about Patchy. It seems like she is trying to protect their secrets.Also I'm pobably the only one but I think Patchy was telling the truth as a whole but changed some of the details like saying he was Dharma. I think Dharma tried to purge a group of people that had been on the island for a long time,but that's not necessarily Ben's group of people. He said he answered an ad but was never a member of Dharma. I think maybe Jacob recrutied him from Dharma after he arrived on the island. I know there are alot of holes in this theory but I tend to believe there was more truth to his story than lies that's why Danielle kept interupting him.
Administrator said... Poor Tom. He totally throws like a girl. Go back and watch it in slow motion...It's just sad.
LOL! Thanks for the laugh admin -- I needed it!
sayid'sgirl said: I think maybe Jacob recrutied him from Dharma after he arrived on the island.
I noticed last night, that his story changed a bit...although I may just be reading too much into the vocabulary he chose. Patchy at first said he answered an add in the paper and that is how he ended up on the island. Last night he mentioned being "recruited". Is that the same thing?
When Mikhail answered the add, it probably put him in touch with the recruiters.
What I'm wondering is: Why did Desmond fire the gun to scare away the birds. Charlie was away at the time and not in danger. Does Desmond not want to be rescued, either?
Ange
In my mind being recruited would be more face to face than answering an ad, but that's just my take.
blueheron13
You have a point. The military have recruting stations they don't always go out in the public for a face to face recruitment.
Hey ange... I had a hard time with the whole Desmond/time travel stuff but it's kinda grown on me. As much as Locke might have a different agenda, I just hope they don't have him time traveling also.
Blueheron,
I'm guessing that Desmond saw Charlie on the rocks because he was after a bird, if there were no birds, charlie wouldn't be on the rocks chasing them...
blueheron13
Sorry about the back to back post, but it just occured to me that maybe Desmond was trying to scare the birds away altogether so they wouldn't be around for Charlie to try and get one for Claire later.
passafist... cool,and I wasn't staring.
tlcm... enjoy your trip,take lots of pictures, come back stronger.
Our prayers for you are on their way; (like the sea-bird ).
whoever He is,commands a lot or respect,and fear among the others.
A master recruiter,genius,and probably charasmatic as well.
Danielle must have had some dealings with the Others in the past,because she keeps saying they are liars.
The Locke episode should answer some questions.
fysb and tim on Locke's past homocidal tendencies;I agree and submit that back on the farm,he may have gone after and killed the undercover cop;hence "the hunter".
Plenty to talk about this week loco's.
inenglandandlost
You beat me. :)
Sayid'sgirl said...If you can believe Goodwin he told Ana that they took out the strong ones first so it would be easier to get the "unflawed" people on the list.
From The Other 48 Days:
ANA: Why do you think they take some of us and not the others?
GOODWIN: That first night they took the strongest of us -- our quiet friend -- three other guys. They're all athletic, tough, threats.
ANA: They didn't take you.
GOODWIN: Guess they changed their plan after two of them got killed. Want to take a break?
...
ANA: Did you kill [Nathan]?
GOODWIN: Nathan was not a good person. That's why he wasn't on the list.
ANA: What about the kids? Did you kill them, too?
GOODWIN: Children are fine. They're better off now.
Ange said... I still can't get it out of my head that Locke knew exactly what would happen. Like he has seen it before...just like Des. He also didn't use the explosives on the fence, and I kinda think he knew something awful would happen if he did, because he has seen it. I also think that is why he went to play chess while he was supposed to be guarding Patchy (last week)...he knew that winning the game would unlock the 77 command, just like Des knew where the bird would be. Onb his own agenda...absolutely, I just think he knows things before they happen.
I think Desmond has this problem because he was at ground zero when the key was turned. Eko and Locke were on thier way out, so I don't see them getting affected the same way.
Administrator said... Claire's note. Read by Charlie. Last line. "We are alive. Please don't give up on us."
That kind of mirrors Claire keeping her mother alive - not giving up on her.
Good morning LoCo! (and hey back at ya Ange!)
I was thinking about Patchy's recruitment story and since we know he lied about being Dharma, it's quite likely he's lying about how he became an other. It's interesting that he hasn't named the organization that the Others belong to. I think the basic story may be true, but he's altering the facts to fit the story he wants the Losties to believe.
I think it's awesome that he has such a sinister look on his face whenever he speaks. He could say the sun was shining and I'd be suspicious.
As for Desmond, is he constantly time travelling? Every time he saves Charlie from one death, does he time travel again and see the next one? Then he has to save Charlie from that one...and travel again and see the next one? My word, he must be exhausted! Personally, I think he should take his shirt off and relax a bit, just to keep his strength up.
It is all much more easily explained by future visions (flashes before his eyes?), than by time travel. See Occams razor
takes a village said... whoever He is,commands a lot or respect,and fear among the others.
I'm guessing "he" must be Jacob, but could "he" be Alvar Hanso, or maybe Dr. Thomas Werner Mittelwerk?
Sorry Sayid'sgirl... I'm finding any excuse not to work, so that's why I was quick... ;o)
Morning everyone!
Just played catch-up on all of your
great insights into this episode.
I would just add that I think Locke has some sort of personal agenda going on. He definitely might have it in for Ben. He doesn't seem to be working together as a team on their journey to Otherville. He didn't want Patchy to tell re his being paralyzed. Why does he want to keep his paralysis a secret? If he's so gung-ho that there's a purpose to them being on the island, etc., why wouldn't he tell everyone that the island made him walk again. (Unless he's afraid to tell why he became paralyized in the first place...we'll find out next week.)
Also, I didn't really buy Danielle's answer to Kate as to why she didn't ask questions about Alex. If it was me I'd ask a zillion of them.
And like I posted late night before bedtime...When Patchy is talking about "the magnificent man who brought all of my people here", I was wondering who all of his people are. He was not the only one recruited when he was 24 or he's come to call his fellow recruits "his people" as an indoctrination technique.
And a thought about the "list": Maybe the ones who are flawed in some way are left off the list, because those are the ones who can be manipulated into doing what the Others want...they are the vulnerable ones with issues. Since most of the "flawed" ones are running from something, they might be willing to stay. Maybe the Others are eliminating those on the list.
And one last thought (for now)...how did that "novel" get written on the tiny piece of paper for the bird's tag? LOL
(BTW: TLCM sorry to hear your news. Hope your trip fulfills your dreams.)
maven said: I didn't really buy Danielle's answer to Kate as to why she didn't ask questions about Alex. If it was me I'd ask a zillion of them.
I thought the same thing. I just can't get on board with the idea that a mother wouldn't want to know at least of she was alright, etc. Valid about her not knowing her after 16 years, sure it is. However, I agree with you and felt she would at least want to know that she was okay, what she is like, etc. I have a feeling she already knows.
Well here are my comments from last night.
First, I haven’t had a chance to re-watch the ep yet, so maybe some of these can be easily answered after another viewing.
(1) I guess this is the American in me, but was Claire really driving the car? She was in the passenger side, unless of course they drive on the wrong (oops I mean other) side of the road.
(2) Now that we know Claire is the doc senior’s daughter, who was preventing him from seeing her? Her aunt? It seemed to me when that episode aired last season, he was trying to see a much younger child. How could he be prevented from seeing Claire, who is an adult?
(3) How old was Claire at the time of the accident as opposed to her leaving Australia. She looked to be 16-18 when she had black hair, but now 22-25 when she was pregnant. This makes me wonder how long her mother has been in a coma.
(4) Since Claire never made the decision to disconnect life support, now that she is gone, is the aunt in charge and will she have the compassion to disconnect life support (obviously, I believe that a person who is in that condition should be allowed to die and find peace)
(5) Why did Desmond shoot when they could have caught the bird? If they caught the bird then, then there would have been no need for Charlie to ever attempt to get the other bird on the rocks. Think this was a plot error by the writers.
(6) Now, the most confusing part for me. The birds. Claire said they were tracked by researchers. Now let’s say the birds reach their destination and the note is found and read. All the rescuers can do is trace the flight pattern of the birds, which will still not give an exact location. I thought she was saying that the birds are tagged, so if we keep a bird, the rescuers could follow the signal of the tracer to the exact location of the island. Maybe I do not understand how these tracers work? Maybe they could have done both.
What keeps bugging me is why hasn't Ben ordered the others to find Danielle. He now know's that she is on the Island, since she was the one who caught him and handed him over to the Losties. I'm with the few of you who say that she's an other. Ben would surely want revenge on someone who shot him with an arrow. Unless it was all set up.
A story for your reading pleasure:
The teacher across the hall from me claims he is an avid Lost fan. Actually, he goes to meetings on Wednesday nights, so I tape it for him, and we never get to chat about it until way after the fact. Last night he did see the episode and was very proud that he had made it home in time, so he could "water cooler" with me. Turns out he isn't as big into the show as he thinks. It totally flew over his head that Claire and Jack are sibs. He had no idea why he should know who Christian Shepard was. It is days like this that I am reminded that not everyone watches Lost like I do, and also of my geekdom...*smile*
Unlikely that Jack was ever in Room 23 -- since that facility is over on New Alcatraz, which was abandoned soon after "Skate" escaped -- since "they know where it is."
And Mikhail speaks of his knowledge of the Losties as "memories", lending more weight to the "time traveling Others" theory that has been floating about.
More later.
Dennis said...I'm guessing "he" must be Jacob, but could "he" be Alvar Hanso, or maybe Dr. Thomas Werner Mittelwerk?
I think the "he" is definitely Jacob. I don't think our current cast of Others are in any way under the authority of Dharma, Hanso, Mittlewerek, etc. I think they were there before Dharma...
Puzzling thing is...wouldn't you think Dharma would know about this tribe of people before and/or during their massive construction effort? Surely they surveyed the island before building their research facility. How could they have missed this "Hostile" civilization?
Morning LoCo's!
First of all: tlcm I'm so sorry to hear you are feeling so bad. Hope your trip is wonderful and that it helps to restore some of your strength. I will say a prayer for you.
About Patchy- he said he was recruited when he was 24 and last week said he was on the island 11 years...that would make him 35. I thought he looked older, this is what makes me wonder if he's telling the truth. (but maybe it's just me, maybe he is only 35)
Maven and others- I thought it was funny about the note too- I kept thinking how small did she write to get that whole note on that little piece of paper!?
acewebguy- I think you have it right- there is no way of exact way of telling where the birds have flown and thus where the Losties really are, I think the note was to let someone know they are still alive and to give rescuers an idea of where to look.
Hey Dennis- thanks for the clarification re: Eko and why the others took him that first night.
Did anyone catch what book Sawyer was reading last night? Looked like something by Anne Rand (sp?)
And admin- yes Tom does throw like a girl! Noticed that too. (I am a bit offended though since I am a girl- not all girls throw that way! LOL)
acewebguy said...
(1) I guess this is the American in me, but was Claire really driving the car?
Yes, in AU they do it the other way round.
(2) Now that we know Claire is the doc senior’s daughter, who was preventing him from seeing her? Her aunt?
Check out the Lostpedia article on Aunt Lindsy. Clair was an adult at the time, but not home. Lindsey does not like Christian, so she chased him away.
(6) ... Now let’s say the birds reach their destination and the note is found and read. All the rescuers can do is trace the flight pattern of the birds, which will still not give an exact location.
I think the point is that if someone knows they survived, the search will continue. That's why she included the details about being off course and headed toward Fiji -- directing rescuers to look elsewhere.
Of course, if we can believe Mikhail there is little likelihood that anyone will find the island without the sonar beacon.
Did anyone else wonder if Emilie De Ravin was disguted by having to carry around that bird during filming. Bird are gross...especially seagulls.
Administrator said...
Puzzling thing is...wouldn't you think Dharma would know about this tribe of people before and/or during their massive construction effort? Surely they surveyed the island before building their research facility. How could they have missed this "Hostile" civilization?
It is explained by the "time traveling Others" theory (see thread for "Enter 77") -- the Others only arrived after Dharma began their experiments, in which they unleashed powers beyond their control (cue spooky music).
BTW: How many are there at the Penuel household nowadays? Have you made some recent additions that I haven't heard about (if so, congratulations!)
Hey, Admin! I'm with you re why Dharma wouldn't have thoroughly researched an island before investing so much money, time and energy. They surely would have noticed any native peoples or hostiles. Unless it's something like when the Pilgrims came to America and encountered bewildered savages. They treated them like dirt and the natives realized they were here to stay and take over everything, so they turned "hostile".
scoutpost said...
Did anyone catch what book Sawyer was reading last night? Looked like something by Anne Rand (sp?)
Yes, it was The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand.
Are we putting together a Sawyer library?
I don't think so Admin - as she alomost has a bird in her name!
Raven - Ravin.
Bom Bom - thank you, I'll be here all week, try the veal.
Scoutpost: I think the book Sawyer was reading was "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand.
I had to LOL when Sawyer started to call Claire "Barbie" and then had to correct himself!
scoutpost - I believe it was The Fountainhead. Read the summary at Wikipedia, LOCOs. You're gonna love it. Guess which character Locke is parallelling. : )
administrator said...
Did anyone else wonder if Emilie De Ravin was disguted by having to carry around that bird during filming. Bird are gross...especially seagulls.
LOL Seagulls are pretty gross. The guys who made Finding Nemo referred to them as rats with wings (or something like that). Maybe the one Emilie carried around was a neat, clean pet seagull! hehe
scoutpost said: Did anyone catch what book Sawyer was reading last night? Looked like something by Anne Rand (sp?)
Yup... The Fountainhead By, Ayn Rand (Good old Dark UFO)
Outline
The Fountainhead examines the life of an idealistic young architect, Howard Roark, who prefers to struggle in obscurity rather than compromise his artistic and personal vision by pandering to the prevailing taste in building design.
Some great discussions here! I also have some big questions about Danielle and can't figure her out. She sure was right that Ben would lie, so I think we should believe her that Patchy is/was a liar, too. This is actually a shame since we don't know what to believe from him. He definitely looks to be older than 35!
When fysb said, As for Desmond, is he constantly time travelling?
Dennis said...
It is all much more easily explained by future visions (flashes before his eyes?), than by time travel.
Which brings me to my new THEORY OF THE WEEK:
Time viewing is made possible by a machine that Dharma invented. Lets call this machine Jacob. Dharma felt they needed something like this to try and change the core factors of the Valenzeti Equation. The incident was when Jacob became AI and Dharma could no longer control it. It started "viewing" things it didn't like and taking primitive (eye for an eye) punishments out on whoever did something that didn't compute with him. Jacob looks for things in the real world that will be a factor of the "end of the world" scenario and the others are his lackies who get the job done by bringing the culprits to the Island where they can do no harm or be eliminated. The Others are a Jacob cult who believes it's abilities will truely save the world (making them the good guys). They have commited their lives around what Jacob wants partly from a belief that He is the savior and partly from fear. They purged Dharma because they saw Jacob as an experiment run amock and tried to destroy it.
Thanks engineer, maven and tbp!
And tbp- I thought of Monty Python and the Holy Grail last night too- only at the part where Locke, et al were cutting down the tree to get over the security fence- I kept expecting them to make a large wooden rabbit!
Ok going to read about The Fountainhead now.
Time travel has recently been in the news. Scientists say humans cannot travel back in time.
scoutpost - Perhaps if they built a large wooden badger...
(go Badgers!)
engineer27 said... And Mikhail speaks of his knowledge of the Losties as "memories", lending more weight to the "time traveling Others" theory that has been floating about.
Here is the transcript for that scene:
MIKHAIL: The man who brought me here, who brought all of my people here, he is a magnificent man.
KATE: If Ben's so magnificent, then why did he need one of us to save him
MIKHAIL: Ben...Ben is not.
MIKHAIL: I will try to make this as simple as I can.
MIKHAIL: You are not on the list because you are flawed.
MIKHAIL: Because you are angry, and weak, and frightened.
SAYID: The more I learn about your people, the more I suspect you are not as omniscient as you'd have us believe.
SAYID: Don't speak to us as if you know us.
MIKHAIL: Of course I don't know you, Sayid Jarrah. How could I?
MIKHAIL: And you Kate Austen, are a complete stranger to me.
MIKHAIL: But you John Locke, you I have a fleeting memory of.
MIKHAIL: But I must be confused, because the John Locke I know was para---
scoutpost said...
About Patchy- he said he was recruited when he was 24 and last week said he was on the island 11 years...that would make him 35. I thought he looked older, this is what makes me wonder if he's telling the truth. (but maybe it's just me, maybe he is only 35)
Andrew Divoff, the actor that plays Mikhail is 52. Lostpedia puts his age at 43, which assumes he has the same birthday as Nadia Comeneci - November 12, 1961.
Codysmom said...
Time viewing is made possible by a machine that Dharma invented. Lets call this machine Jacob. Dharma felt they needed something like this to try and change the core factors of the Valenzeti Equation. The incident was when Jacob became AI and Dharma could no longer control it.
I like it. Very Illuminatus.
dennis:
It's that one line by Mikhail that I was referring to:
MIKHAIL: But you John Locke, you I have a fleeting memory of.
Inengland and Sayid's Girl...
Thanks for the theories regarding Desmond shooting the gun.
Now I'm thinking about Patchy's line "all my people". I had been assuming that he was recruited at the same time as Kelvin (and maybe Radzinsky and a few other Others). I had also been assuming that most of the Others we've seen have indeed been on the island for a very long time, perhaps even descendents of the civilization that built the four-toed statue.
But when Patchy says "all my people" it sounds like he's referring to ALL of the Others--like Jacob (or whomever HE is) has recruited everybody in somewhat more recent times (but still earlier than when DI arrived). I can't seem to reconcile this into a theory (that doesn't involve time travel!). Any other thoughts about the meaning of "all my people"?
Locke may have pushed Patchy into the fence to keep his secret, but if that is the case, it stretches the imagination. Locke was put on to the plane as a paralyzed man. Wouldn't the Losties have known he was paralyzed? They seem not to the whole time, but if I were on a plane and saw a paralyzed guy in a wheel chair, he would stand out to me. I doubt I would forget him.
Dennis said... Maybe they didn't know about his "true" past. They might have only known he was a priest. I'm guessing killing those two guys got him taken right off the list :)
It would make sense then why Smoky had to come after Eko... to get his whole story and figure out what the problem was.
Acewebguy- I think the birds are just marked and then when they land they are counted. I saw a tagging demo of a monarch butterfly once and the women explained that the tag has a phone number someone can call to track them. I was amazed that enough people call to track the butterflies.
Here's my take on Danielle... Danielle is NOT a main character and I believe here now to be a bane to the writers. They set her up previously so now they HAVE to deal with her character. So... they have to give her lines, but they don't want her to take up too much episode time because she really isn't that important. Therefore, they explain away her absence of questions about Alex. Also, last week when she said she wasn't coming to the flame made sense to me, too. Remember that although lost is a good show, it is also being made for MONEY. TV is a money maker and not primarily about consistent story. It works well for the money makers if Danielle isn't in a lot of shots. (Remember she is NOT a main character). THey didn't have to pay Mira Furlan for those shots and they also didn't have to work around her schedule in shooting the inside scenes at the Flame. In fact, if you were to look at how they shot the inside scenes you would have this combination of characters: sayid, pathcy; patchy, kate, sayid; Locke; sayid, kate, clugh. No Danielle is one last salary to pay and one last schedule to work around.
So, in conclusion, I don't think there is anything suspicious about Danielle. I think she's the victim of money makers. (Which is sad, because I like Mira Furlan as an actress!)
Of course, I could be wrong and they might have something planned for Danielle... I'll just have to wait and see...
Ooops.. I meant one less salary to pay and one less schedule to work around.
I blame it on a tired mind and body... :-D
Carissa said... Locke was put on to the plane as a paralyzed man. Wouldn't the Losties have known he was paralyzed? They seem not to the whole time, but if I were on a plane and saw a paralyzed guy in a wheel chair, he would stand out to me. I doubt I would forget him.
Locke boarded the plane before anyone else. The only person that saw him in his wheelchair before the flight was Rose, but she is keeping Locke's secret, since she thinks she has also been "healed" by the island.
Once Locke was on the plane, he was a seated passenger, just like everyone else.
blueheron13 said... But when Patchy says "all my people" it sounds like he's referring to ALL of the Others
Leaving aside the time travel theory for a moment, it makes sense that all the Others were "recruited" at some point in the past, even perhaps more than 20 years previously. The only exception is Ben, who claims to have been there his entire life -- and Karl, who has never heard of the Brady Bunch.
Perhaps when Mikhail speaks of Ben ("Ben is not...."), he is distancing himself (that is, "Ben is not one of MY people"). This ties into the multiple factions of Others that have been theorized and alluded to by CC and DL.
Dennis-
Ahhh... Got it. So they don't know Locke was paralyzed. Hum, then why hide it? Interesting...
engineer27 said... I like it. Very Illuminatus. Thanks!
you also said ... Perhaps when Mikhail speaks of Ben ("Ben is not...."), he is distancing himself (that is, "Ben is not one of MY people"). This ties into the multiple factions of Others that have been theorized and alluded to by CC and DL.
Good one!
I was just over at the ABC Lost site and they don't have a link for the Podcast Questions board anymore. I wonder if that means they're not going to do anymore podcasts?
maven said...
I didn't really buy Danielle's answer to Kate as to why she didn't ask questions about Alex. If it was me I'd ask a zillion of them.
I was thinking this also but truthfully, how many questions would Kate be able to answer other than how does she look? The only time we've seen them together is when Alex is rescuing/saving Kate & Sawyer. I don't think they had time to chit chat. And Danielle knows what the Others are like, and maybe what she doesn't know can't hurt her.
Why hide it? (Locke's paralysis)
How do we know for sure he was still paralyzed on the plane? And would we have any reason to think he expected to be healed as an indirect result of Flight 815, thus reinforcing the convenience of hiding his true condition pre-815?
Sayid'sgirl said... I was just over at the ABC Lost site and they don't have a link for the Podcast Questions board anymore. I wonder if that means they're not going to do anymore podcasts?
There's still a link in the message boards section here: http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/boards
LOST USER QUESTIONS
Ask the show producers questions about the show, and they may be answered in a special podcast.
hummm
Thanks Dennis
When I went there there were only the links to the other two boards and not the lost user questions.
I'll go back and check again.
TheBookPolice said... How do we know for sure he was still paralyzed on the plane? And would we have any reason to think he expected to be healed as an indirect result of Flight 815, thus reinforcing the convenience of hiding his true condition pre-815?
I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying...
Are you saying that Oceanic 815 healed Locke and not The Island?
We saw Locke in a wheelchair before the flight. Locke seemed pretty embarrassed when they had to carry him on the plane (since the wheelchair was missing).
Plus this:
BOONE: What is wrong with you? Are you crazy?
LOCKE: I was in a wheelchair.
BOONE: What?
LOCKE: Paralyzed for 4 years. The plane -- our plane -- I was in that chair when we took off. But not after we crashed.
BOONE: Why were you in a wheelchair?
LOCKE: It doesn't matter anymore. But, but, this island, it changed me. It made me whole. Now it's trying to take it back and I don't know why. But it wants me to follow what I saw.
Nope still not there.
Even using your link.
The only links are for the general board and the plot board.
Maybe it's my computer.
Here is a direct link to the forum: http://forums.go.com/abc/primetime/lost/forum?forumID=36
Maybe the page is cached. Try hitting Ctrl-F5 to refresh the cache.
If that doesn't work, just enter 77. That'll show 'em :)
Ok maybe I'll just try 77 first. ;)
Just make sure you don't blow up DL and CC!!
thebookpolice said...scoutpost - Perhaps if they built a large wooden badger...
Yes! I think a large wooden badger would solve all their problems and get them off the island!
Thanks engineer...the "different factions" theory is plausible for why Patchy made that comment.
Has anyone mentioned Patchy's comment about how it is easy to leave the island, but hard to find it? If true, that's a big reveal! Maybe they aren't all permanently trapped there after all. Maybe Ethan and Alpert have come and gone on various recruiting missions. Maybe Walt and Mike have found rescue.
good call, blueheron13
Also, I keep thinking about Claire and the car "accident"; that the truck came out of nowhere. She was arguing with her mom, maybe wishing she was dead ... who does that sound like?
Hey everyone! I HEART this episode! Not too much more to say in addition to what's been said already.
However, I am (as a LOT of people are) getting a little restless/aggrivated/confused with all the questions that are posed, but no answers - or even hints (hey, throw us a bone every once in a while!). Does anyone know of a comprehensive list of questions that still remain unanswered or unexplained? Like, there's still stuff out there from season 1...
Anyhooo...LOST is still my obsession and Wednesday still my favorite night :)
I was thinking about what Mikhail said:
You are not on the list because you are flawed. Because you are angry, and weak, and frightened.
It seems these comments were specifically directed at them:
Sayid - Angry
John - Weak
Kate - Frightened
Funny Dennis, I read it as-
Sayid-frightened
Kate- weak
Locke- angry
but that's just how I remember it, I should go watch that part again.
I was thinking the same thing. But I thought that John was the angry one. He had been to anger management classes.
But I couldn't figure out who the weak and frightened ones were. I've never seen Sayid or Kate weak or frightened.
that should be as weak or frightened.
I would consider Kate frightened. She was always on the run, afraid of her past catching up with her. At least before she came to the Island.
The Others know who they WERE, NOT who they are now, on The Island.
John was weak, physically and mentally. The Island has restored John's strength. Even Patchy was surprised that John wasn't paralyzed.
That leaves angry for Sayid, but I don't really know how that applies.
engineer27 said...
BTW: How many are there at the Penuel household nowadays? Have you made some recent additions that I haven't heard about (if so, congratulations!)
Actually...My sister comes over every week and watches with my wife and I. Last night, my dad was in town visiting so he watched with us as well. However, my wife (Alli) and I do have an EXCITING ANNOUNCEMENT!
Hi LoCos!
TLCM, It is SO good to hear from you. We hope that your trip does you a world of good and that you get rested! XO
I like the "don't give up on us (TPTB), as well" thought Admin. (it was Admin I think)
I don't think that Dez is constantly traveling thru time, I think that he is just having visions, or intuitions, and things like that. Like when he told Hurley about Locke's speach, it just seemed to pop into his head and seemed like a spontaneous thought that came up while he was speaking. But, I agree that he should take his shirt off again. :o)
About the hostile natives not being discovered when the HF reconned the island previous to inhabiting it: the DI may have seen them and set up a deal with the natives, and then the natives got tired of them being around and attacked. Or, more likely, the DI broke some promises that they made to the natives, and then the natives retaliated and tried to kick them off the island.
Patchy might only share the same birth date with Nadia, he wasn't necessarily born on the exact same day and year. He looked pretty old, but it could be his gnarly make-up. So...now we know where all the leftover young KGB military guys went after the Soviet Union fell out of power.
When the bird-with-the-note shot faded into the birds flying over Kate at Otherville, I half expected the birds to land at a homing station and then an Other would be reading their note!!
I wonder what The Fountainhead would have to do with Lost or this ep? That's one of my favorite books/movies. Maybe J.Woods will get into any correlation.
Great comments everyone!!
I agree, erich, "directed at the three of them, was probably also directed at the rest of the Losties, and anyone else not on "The List."
I was just re-watching the ep and noticed when Claire was in the hospital being interrogated by the cop, the cop says "These questions are standard when there's a fatality". Claire quickly says her mom's in surgery, that she's not dead. So, against Christian's (IMO good) advice, she keeps her mom alive on life support indefinitely so she doesn't get in trouble with the law? If that's true, it's worse than I originally thought. After seeing more and more flashbacks into the not-so-good side of our Losties this year, makes me think Patchy's telling them they're all flawed means they are willing to let others suffer because of their own agendas, so they wouldn't understand "the big picture".
Wooooo Hoooooo Admin -- congratulations!!!!!!!
BTW, love the video.
Wow, David!! Congrats!!! (cute video, thanks for sharing)
CONGRATS ADMIN!!!! :-D
Congratulations David & Alli!
Please tell me that this isn't how you told your family :)
Wow! Big congratulations to Mr. and Mrs. Admin! My first grandchild is due in September, too!
Maven, coincidence or fate? Just kidding..
Do you happen to have the ratings for last night, yet?
Wow David- Congrats to you and Alli!!!
Loved the announcement!
Are you going to find out if it's a boy or a girl?
I'm sure we could help you with some names- like Thomas Werner if it's a boy.....j/k!
Or Kate, Claire, Danielle, Penny, Shannon, Ana Lucia, Rose, or Sun if it's a girl!
capcom said...
When the bird-with-the-note shot faded into the birds flying over Kate at Otherville, I half expected the birds to land at a homing station and then an Other would be reading their note!!
I know! I thought the same thing. And- I wouldn't count out that possibility yet- you know how TPTB are. Karl probably has cages of birds in his backyard that he and Alex take care of together.
We have to come up with a great user name for Baby Admin! (Gotta start them early!)
scoutpost, codysmom, maven, dennis, capcom, ib4uc...
Thanks! I can't wait to be a dad.
That IS how we told our families! It was hilarious...they were freaking out. We watched it WITH her family and then had my parents watch it with us on the phone.
We ARE going to find out the gender but we won't know for a month or so. I'm sure you guys could dish out some names!
And there's also tons of nice philosopher names to choose from...I mean who wouldn't want to name their kid John Locke or Mikhail Pakunin?
Admin,& Penuel family; a triple Rachel font Congratulations !
David,
I like Smokey if it is a boy (you know, like Smokey Robinson :)
and Rachel Blake Penuel has a nice ring to it for a girl.
...of course Charlotte would be good too for a girl.
On the assumption that Patchy said "thank you" to Locke because Locke did him a favor by killing him, has anyone thought about why Patchy maybe left it to someone to push him into the force field? Why didn't he just run into it himself? I guess that he could have just been waiting for the perfect moment, to perhaps take a couple of Losties out with him when he did himself in, for one thing. I'm just curious as to what you all might think about that.
capcom- I think darkUFO addresses that over on his blog. I don't remember what he says about it. That is a really good question.
One thing I do remember from darkUFO's blog is that: If Patchy was on the island for 11 years and Locke had only been in a wheelchair for 4 years, how could Patchy have a "memory" of Locke being "para"...lyzed? He could have been told, yes, but how could he have had a "memory"? Was this just another lie? or does Patchy have visions/time travel?
capcom... I think Patchy had a feeling all along that Locke was going to push him. Kinda like 'I'm not gonna do it but you'll do it for me'.
Maybe it was better to be killed than face the wrath of "him".
Thanks Scoutpost about the DarkUFO recap. I went to read it, but I really don't agree with hardly any of what Vozzek69 says this week, surprisingly. I usually do. And I really [[don't want]] to think that the island mysteries are just a copy of the magic planet in Star Trek's "Shore Leave" ep, like he/she does. Some things attributed to that, yes. All things, no. I would rather that some people could make things happen, but not everyone, just by materializing things with their thoughts. To me, that's too easy of an answer, and hey, if that's the case, let's write in to TPTB and tell them what we want the Losties and Others to think so it will happen! :-D
Thanks also IB4UC. He probably did think that Locke would do it. But I'm still curious as to why he didn't just run headlong into it himself, BONZAI style! "C-ya suckers!", ZAAAP! :o)
And I still think that even though Locke is indeed often crazy like a fox at times, he is still also as dumb as a bull in a china shop at other times. You know, too oblivious to realize that a little bit of discretion and moderation might do the trick in certain situations!
BTW, I do have to agree with Vozzek as to how easy it was for Dez to pick up that nesting bird, and that it seems crazy now in hind-sight. I've been inadvertently near birds' nests in trees and bushes before, and they darn-near plucked my eyes out till I was out of range!
Oh well, suspension of disbelief for the story progression, and all that. :-)
OK, now I can get into the use of "Fountainhead", via a poster over at DarkUFO:
"In many ways, the protagonist of 'The Fountainhead', Howard Roark, is a fixed character, flawless and aloof, while everyone else in the book revolves around him, swirling in their pathos and problems, and ultimately meeting fates determined by the quality of their personal character. Some succeed, some fail, but Roark stands alone.
So is Roark then meant to make us think of "Him," who we now know is not Ben?"
That thought makes sense to me.
Capcom said: has anyone thought about why Patchy maybe left it to someone to push him into the force field? Why didn't he just run into it himself?
I think he wanted them to think it wasn't functioning, but knowing that they wouldn't believe anything he said, he hoped that he could takeout a few of them as he went down, too. He would rather die than be taken prisoner by the Losties for...Bea Klugh did...apparently it was their orders.
Just re-watched and noticed A LOT I missed the first time round.
1. Patchy did seem to change his story about how he ended up on the island "The man who recruited me..." he starts to say.
2. Patchy says the fence doesn't work at first. Was he trying to get someone else to go through it?
3. Christian Shepard, in the hospital, alludes to another method to help Claire's mother. Stating that taking her off life support was illegal (codysmom) mentioned this earlier, but that there were things he could make happen. WHAT THINGS?
I am really starting to get on board with Christian being DHARMA and attached to the island somehow...which might make Jack way more involved by proxy.
CONGRATS ADMIN!!!!
Thanks Maven that sounds good. :-)
Ange: I was just thinking that Christian Shephard seems to pop up all the time and is beginning to have connections to many of the Losties. Ana Lucia, Claire, Jack, Sawyer...will there be more. He could have gotten at least the above four on Flight 815. Is he really dead? Could he have been recruited by Dharma or Mittelos? Could he be Jacob?
scoutpost - I'm just starting to get a feeling about Locke that ties very strongly into the origins of the Others, the reason Juliet was brought to the Island, and that there are motivations being played out on the Island that were started before Flight 815 ever left the tarmac in Sydney.
I can't say more here, because it gets too spoilery. Check out Lostpedia's Theories/John Locke page; I added my thoughts to the end of the "Cause of handicap" and "Healing on the island" sections.
In rewatching the episode's Kate/Sayid/Locke/Danielle/Patchy segments, here are some further observations:
1. Patchy seems to be telling two different stories about how he came to come to the island: A. He answered an ad about "Do you want to save the world" and B. He was recruited when he was 24 and was approached by a man.
2. Before the EMP, Patchy and his group could come and go from the island via the sonar beam and sub. Where were they going? To get supplies? And the EMP just happened, how long was Patchy at the Flame in isolation?
3. When Kate asks Patchy about "What List?" Patchy and Locke exchange a knowing glance. Very obvious. And Patchy's line about having a "fleeting memory" of a different John Locke really stands out.
4.When Patchy tells Sayid to look at the map to see that the security fence is around the whole parameter, only Kate and Sayid look at the map. Locke doesn't even glance in their direction. That's when he pushed Patchy through the fence.
5. Sayid even asks Locke: "Why are you really here? Are you here for Jack?" Locke: "Why else would I be here?" Sort of a showdown.
6. What is Locke going to use the C-4 for? What else is he going to blow up?
The FountainHead! Wow- usually I can't even touch any literary references in LOST---(I apparently read all the "wrong" genres). I've posted a few times here before--but unfortunately, usually don't feel like my comments contain the substance many of you include so shy away....(I SO enjoy the range of knowledge presented here!)
Roark- Yes, he is a stand along, idealistic character- perhaps intended to be the "flawless" character (could debate that forever). However, he is strongly in contrast to "flawed" characters ---everyone from those compromising personal integrity for the "greater good" (who you can identify with) to those referred to as "parasites". The ultimate end of the book is Roark, with his female "equal" (also debatable) standing atop his most magnificent creation - that he has built without compromise to others, etc. See more here if you are interested-- http://www.bookrags.com/notes/fou/CHR.html
(I love character development!)
As if LOST doesn't make my brain want to explode in and of itself...they had to include Rand (who, by the way, lived in communist Russia- and was a huge capitalist proponent upon coming to America- she was even named People Magazines 50 most villainous people)...the parrallels to her life and Mikails story are also pretty noteworthy. More here:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_ayn_rand_aynrand_biography
My apologies if no one is into jumping into this one…. as a HUGE fan of her work (and philosophy) I really loved the links I started seeing!
Sorry...wanted to include this too... Atlas Shrugged (another Rand novel) deals with metaphysics (a secret ideal society in an alternate space and or time) where the "good" people (not morally good necessarily, but competent) are chosen and taken...voluntarily...after a series of "trials" in an imperfect world...again more parrallels, the "good people" were highly competent in many valuable areas (energy, medicine, business)... oh sigh..... sorry again... skip right over my ramblings if needed.... have just never seen her work in this!
Lisa: Thanks for posting that "Fountainhead" analysis. Everything on Lost seems to be there for a reason, and your literary input is very valuable. I like your flawed/flawless analysis of the main character. This definitely seems to be a running theme in the show.
BTW: Out of the blue, Hubby says he's stopping by Borders on the way home because he's always wanted to read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand! I told him Rand was a "featured" item in last night's show (he doesn't watch the show). Coincidence? I think not! LOL
Oh joy!!!! I so hope he enjoys it!!!! ;-)
It is LOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGGG key words "Stick with it" MORE than worth it in the end!
Even a love triangle of sorts by the end ---promise, that tidbit won't spoil the book for him (J/K/S--- very sketchy connection....).....
Wow Maven- that is really weird. Maybe everything really does happen for a reason. hmmmm
Also, regarding your observations- yes I remember that knowing glance exchanged between Locke and Patchy re: the list. During the whole convo it seemed as if Patchy was really talking to Locke knowing Locke had some kind of different understanding than Kate and Sayid. There's definitely something fishy going on there.
Thanks, Lisa. Yeah, he couldn't believe how long it was! He'll stick it out, I'm sure!
Scoutpost: I'm really beginning to be wary of Locke. He definitely has a different agenda than the rest of the Losties.
I have always thought there is something different about Locke- that he has some sort of connection or significance that is different than everyone else. Mainly because his mother termed him as "special" and "immaculately conceived", and in season 2 there was an episode- don't remember which one- (around the time when Locke punches Charlie for trying to baptize Aaron, or maybe right after that) that Charlie is with claire and Aaron and Locke is looking on. The camera pans all the way around Locke as he looks on and the scene is a little ominous. I have no idea what it means, but I think Locke is integral to some of the secrets to the island/show.
I think Locke is integral to some of the secrets to the island/show.
Well I guess that last statement about Locke is not a shocker, but I think that there is more to Locke than meets the eye and that he is going to become a major player in the future.
luckyguylikeme: Well, coming from one of the oldest people here...I'd just like to echo your appreciation of TLC! Like you, I have very few people who like to dissect this show as much as all you guys and I do. Everyone is open to everyone else's thoughts, and TLC has always been a great community (starting way back during TLE days!)It's great to add you into this crazy mix!
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