Get fired up about getting back to the beloved beach! Tonight, a suspicious and determined Hurley enlists Charlie to help him wrangle the truth out of Desmond, who has been acting strangely ever since the implosion of the hatch.
Wednesday, February 14, 2007
FLASHES BEFORE YOUR EYES - SEASON 3, EPISODE 8
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1 – 200 of 433 Newer› Newest»Just checking in before the episode. Chuck & Ded...was reading up in the previous posts comments...sorry to hear about each of your woes. I wish I was able to be around more to be more of a part of the neat support system that I know you each have in this community.
Ded, I dealt with unidentifiable health issues a few years back. I had every test imaginable. As best I can tell, I was suffering from anxiety and panic. My mental & emotional states "felt" stable and normal but it was really getting to me physically. I still have flare ups of the same symptoms. It was a really scary time in my life and I'm sorry you're having to deal with that.
Happy Valentines Day everybody. I've been out a couple of days and just wanted to say hi before the episode starts. I'll be back afterward.
Something just occured to me so I figured I'd write it here while I can still remember.
Benry told Michael & Walt to follow a compass bearing of 325 and then they would find rescue.
Last week Jack asked Tom/Mr. Friendly why they didn't take Benry to a facility off the island to get help with the tumor. Them Tom alluded to things being out of whack ever since "the sky turned purple". That means M & W weren't able to make it off the island. They are probably floating around somewhere!
B
That picture of Desmond on the front page reminds me of another actor, but I can't think of who. Anyone?
Admin,
Your problom didn't represent itself as undifinible abdominal pain that is nomadic in nature did it???
I Like It!!!
And then it rained....
That was cool!
Maybe his two timelines merged for awhile.
Ah yes, Desmond looks like Dustion Hoffman in that screenshot on the front page!
So if this is a flash backwards to the past, does it count as a crossing since we are given the impression that (the crossing) didn't happen the first time around?
I call Shenanagins!
Okay so his past has changed in some ways like the pub. But it's not suppose to according to the woman. And how does she know?
This is confusing but great!
I think she looks like the Blonde woman who was reading Jack's tattoo's on the island...
I'm so disoriented. Is this a flashback? Flashforward? Present day?
Dedjezter Yeah I think you're right. Except she has her hair up.
This is so insanely good I can't even begin.....
Lost has put such a hum on my head, I'm wired for sound. Wow, this is such a monumental episode, so much to discuss.
She did call it!
It wasn't a flashback or a flash forward.
It was the first ever LOST Rewind
My guess is when he told the guy to duck there was a course correction...
Great revelation at the end, but for you westcoasters I won't mention it.
dedjezter-
Time travel? Parallel universe? What do you mean Lost rewind? Wasn't that desmond's flashback? It almost felt like Lost doing it's own version of Day Break?
I need to let this episode digest and then I need to rewatch it. I stopped taking notes after act 3, I didn't want to miss anything. Anybody have any random thoughts they would like to share?
dennis - was that Lost doing it's own version of day break???
DeDJeZTeR said... So if this is a flash backwards to the past, does it count as a crossing since we are given the impression that (the crossing) didn't happen the first time around?
I think it counts as a crossing. He probably was there the "first" time, but he didn't know him then.
JGZ350 said...It almost felt like Lost doing it's own version of Day Break?
Day Break crossed with Final Destination
The clock in Desmond's flat read 1:08
experimentalfilm
Oh I know I really like him too.
But maybe it won't be for awhile or hopefully not at all since he was in that lost moment with Vincent.
Experimental,
In one of the last LOST moments, there is a scene of Jack in the cage and a blonde OTHER woman reads his tattoos. She looks very similar if not exactly like this woman, only a few years younger and with her hair up.
Dennis,
Daybreak crossed with Final Destination...
You said it Brutha.
2nd Attempt
Did anyone notice the painting or whatever it was over the bed in the flat that had similar symbols as the mural in the hatch (allegedly) painted by Dezzi?
Dennis,
Yes, but what I was getting at was that a crossing usually doesn't put the two people in contact with each other... they just cross, Dezzi changed this by getting involved, thus negating it being a true crossing.
I think the coincidence is that Dezzi can see it... the fate is that Charlie will die. This is punctuated further by the fact that Charlie once wrote the same word on his Bandages.
I would just like to say that I think this is more proof that TPTB have...
ALWAYS HAD A PLAN... lol
Jgz350,
It was a version of Daybreak... sort of. What I mean by Rewind is that while we are getting a Flash back, Dezzi was seeing it a second time. He wasn't remembering the event, he was reliving it all over again. He rewound and the time skipped back to track 3 (season three... lol)
does anyone know if the ring was seen in the season two ending when penny gets the call from the guys in the snow sound station?
the reason i ask is that I am looking for clues maybe pointing to either multiple trips back by Des or some kind of parallel dimension...
could someone check that?
yeah i thought she had it too! good eye experimentalfilm!
did anyone catch the painting in whidmore's office? looked like something hanso would be proud of.
Wow-times-infinity!
Admin, thanks for the nice image of cleaned-up Dezzy on the front page! Hope that you are feeling better. Too true, stress can totally break down your body, even though you think your handling it fine...a very insidious health killer.
Experimental, no, he's having MY children! :-p
Ded, you crack me up. I call that shenanigans is the official Lost word for season three!
Oh! I have to go back and look at those paintings again now, thanks Ded.
As for Charlie dying, in island time it could take another of our years before he dies! He might not die this season, I hope not, he's too much fun to rag on. :o)
What is "crossing"? I guess I missed that in the previous posts? Please say that it's not about that Jonathan Edward guy. Tx.
Capcom,
Crossings are when another Loataway is seen in a someone elses flashback. some people call them conections as well.
Desmond's physicist friend was telling the woman her theisis was moot (I think I couldn't hear it very well) the wild card partridge is unpredictability run the same test ten times you get ten different out comes that's what makes life so wonderfully...then Des runs in. So could there possibly be an outcome where Charlie doen't die or Desmond doesn't leave Penny? Just because he hasn't been able to change it to an out come that's good yet does that mean he can't? I don't know if I believe the woman saying the universe self corrects. Or maybe I just don't want to.
I just thought of something it may be cazy but didn't Desmond say he saw flashes of his life after he turned the key and that he was still seeing flashes? Would that mean Desmond is in a time ahead of the rest of the Losties. Is he seeing his past not their future?
Andy,
No ring seen as far as I could tell.
I also noticed and made a note about the Widmore paintings, but only mentioned the Dezzi flat one cause it was the freshest remembrance I had... lol
They all seemed very hatch like... The Production artist (Jay?) needs to be a lil more diverse, or we are gonna suspect that every painting in lost was painted by Claies Boyfriend or Michael or Dezzi... lol
I too thought about the photo... maybe this is the proof you need Andy... not the ring , but in one timeline Dezmond doesn't take the picture. He gives it to Penny. In another he takes it with him...
I don't know because he wouldn't have it if she had it, or maybe they just had a copy made... lol I've done that... lol
sayid's girl-
maybe its because we don't believe in fate. whats that Han Solo quote? i don't believe in fate just a bunch of. . .
maybe the ring lady is connected to the island and her job is to make Des think he can't escape. its another way they(whoever is really in control on the island) control. but that doesn't mean he shouldn't try
Here come the Central time zone peeps, lets hope they have some input... lol
Well TPTB said this would blow our minds of chase us away. I'd say it definately didn't chase us away.
ded-
from what i recall the painting in the office had, what i am assuming to be, a (polar)bear, a buddha that was upside down, and something else. . .
Wow, excellent episode!!!
This kind of reminds me of what Dharma was all about ... trying to change a core factor so the world doesn't end. The woman in the jewelry store saying you can't change the outcome (destiny) ... Juliet saying she thought free will still existed on the island. Man of science (now looks like the pessimist) man of faith (Locke is one of the "good" ones). Boy, I'm really rambling here.
I'm going to need to watch that again!
Hey everybody. Just finished watching for the first time. Going back to watch again.
Couple of observations to ponder. Dating the flashbacks. Usually the music the producers use in the show have meaning. Sometimes to date the flashbacks, and sometimes to speak to the mystery of the island. If they were using music to date time, the flashback could have occurred as early as 1997. The music playing was Sarah McLaughlin, Building a Mystery. Thanks to my girlfriend for dragging me to a few of her concerts in Utah. The song was released in 1997. The lyrics could also be telling: "Yah your work is, building a mystery. Holding on, and holding in. Yah your work is, building a mystery. And choosing so carefully."
Wonderwall, By Oasis was the song Charlie was singing. Released in 1995, so it wasn't for dating purposes. How about for precognitive purposes. Lyrics: "I say maybe, you're gonna be the one that saves me. And after all, you're my wonderwall." Can Desmond actually save Charlie? Maybe?
2. Admiral McCutcheon - I know our boy thebookpolice will be able to shed some light and will be all over this one. Isn't the admiral a character from 20,000 Leagues under the sea? And wasn't someone on the island reading that book? I would love to hear bookpolice's thoughts on the imagery between LOST and the book since I haven't read it in 15 years.
3. For all the fellas, damn Penelope is hot, and so is Claire. Finally someone to start at besides Kate!
Anyway, a little food for thought. See you all in a bit to discuss.
I also noticed he told Mr. Widmore he hadn't been in the military I wonder if that was true or had he not joined yet? He did stop and stare at a poster of the Royal Scots. I'm still curious about what happened to put him in prison.
I'm sorryI'm posting so much I'll try to slow it down. But this episode has got me so excited.
Very interesting, experimentalfilm.
He'll need saving again when Sawyer sees what he did to his tent. He's even stealing his act (Charlie calls Des the "bearded wonder"; sounds like a Sawyer nick-name.
That is a good point Experimental, but if this is truely the case then Charlie has never needed Dezzi's help and has always been able to save himself, and in the end he just might.
Andy, the great philosopher Homer Simpson also said something to that effect, "There's no moral to this story, it's just a bunch of stuff that happened!" One of my fave Simpson lines.
Hooooey, if TPTB are going to start multiplying and overlapping timmelines like a tick-tack-toe grid, my head is going to explode and I am going to LOVE it. I think that I'll write TPTB a note tomorrow and just type "thank you" one hundred times. I'd better do it before they air the Bai Ling episode and I change my mind. Heh-heh.
FYSB, what's your take on tonight's offering from TPTB?
It takes a village to save Charlie. He has saved himself, Jack has saved him, now Desmond. He must be important for something. Maybe for his role in Aaron's life?
ExperimentalFilm-
Glad I wasn't the only one who saw the wonderwall lyrics link. Beat you to it!!
Experimental, maybe Charlie has now used up all of his nine lives tonight?
Wow! What an episode! If I hear any more complaining about season 3 I'm gonna smack somebody.
So...how cool that we were talking just this past week about time looping. Wonder how that is going to pan out in the overall story?
One question: I wonder at what point Desmond's loop starts and ends? I mean I know a loop is neverending, but how long does Desmond live on the island/ how much farther into the future does Desmond live before he loops back around to England again? HOw come when he got hit in the head in the pub that he all of a sudden jumped
to island time right after turning the key? Why did time skip- his time in the military, jail time, sailing around the world, the 1st 3 years on the island, etc.? Was that just flashback and not actually part of the loop?
another thing that just hit me as I watch for a second time. Pretty obvious though. Can't beleive I missed it the first time.
The man in Red shoes. Another wizard of oz reference to add to the link between the movie and lost. Dorothy's red ruby slippers. Also the genlteman wearing them getting crushed by a building. I believe it was the Wicked witch of the East who had the slippers on when Dorothy's house fell on her.
Also, if the universe always corrects itself- gets back on course, perhaps all of the Losties were supposed to be on the island/brought to the island at some point, but perhaps they continually avoided getting there (subconsciously), but finally as the universe got itself back on course, they all ended up on flt. 815 which was doomed to crash there. Maybe that explains how all these people who are connected ended up on the island at the same time. Ok I have a feeling this makes no sense.
Anyone catch which book it was that charlie pulls from sawyers stash, and Hurley thumbs through... is this one we have seen before or not?
Did anyone catch that in Sawyers stash there was a Pack of Brezzo cigarettes, Sawyer said he stopped smoking because there were no cigarettes left...
ooooo Diggity- good one on the OZ catch. Yes the wicked witch of the east had the ruby slippers on when Dorothy's house fell on her.
Experimental- I think the flashback took place around 1997 due to the Sarah McLaughlin that was on the 108 clock radio. That would allow plenty of time for Desmond to join the army, spend some time in jail, and begin his pursuit to sale in the Widmore sailing race.
Scout,
See my post above...
I think that Dezzi changed the past and in doing so caused the course correction. If he had let the guy hit the bartender it would have just taken longer to get to the end result.
Scoutpost, maybe TPTB are using the "Quantum Leap" definition of time, i.e., that time's continuous loop can be twisted and overlapped over itself, allowing travel from one section of the time loop to another?
Too bad the feet of the guy with the red shoes didn't curl up Diggity! Nice observation.
the more and more I watch, there is a ton of OZ imagery.
Desmond's path is to go the island, just as Dorothy's path was to go to OZ and meet the wizard.
Also, path = the yellow brick road. Follow the yellow brick road Dezzy.
Sawyer read a wrinkle in time. Was that the book?
Also, Good OZ catch diggity, never saw that connection.
Aldo was reading A Brief History of Time.
I'm going to have to get out my DVD's, but I'm pretty sure someone on the island was reading 20,000 leagues under the sea at one point. Probably Sawyer since he is the reader.
Interesting that they took a character from that book and made it a whisky and a real soldier. Where's thebookpolice when we need our librarian!
maven, ooh maven. Calling all westcoasters.
Thank's you guys for the answers to the time looping question. I see what you mean now.
Do you think Desmond's physicist friend looked for him after the soccer game turned out just as Desmond had said? I know he wasn't in the bar to see everything else turn out as Desmond had seen it, but if it had been me and the game had turned out the same way as someone had told me, I would definitely want to talk to them again!
okay how about this. . .
since Des turned the key, the others ability to worm hole or warp to different times has been interrupted (this is the mystery of the numbers- unlocking time travel to save mankind from itself, thought to be failed but maybe seen more as pointless/futile) and Des is the only one who can slip back and forth but is unaware of this ability and just sees his 'life' now as saving private charlie. but to restore their(the others) ability to leave the island they need Des to go back and keep on pushing the button or at least not blow the hatch.
Ok on a lighter note- Desmond's and Penny's love story is so sad!
That's a good point andy. Was the hatch suppose to implode or will the universe course correct so it doesn't. The woman said that pushing the button would be the only worth while thing Desmond would do.
In case anyone was wondering the flashes that Dezzi see's are:
Dezmond behind Locke with gun Looking at Jack From the second season opening.
Dezmond looking at I think the list of number entries from the Pearl Hatch.
Dezmond giving himself the injection before he leaves the hatch.
Dezmond at the computer trying to enter the numbers, when it fries on him and he thinks they are screwed.
Dezmond when he tells Jack that he is gonna run as far away as he can, after jack catches up to him in the jungle.
Dezmond laughing drunk. Not sure which scene.
Dezmond snickering drunk on the beach after he returns on the boat, I think it was Jack talking to him... Not sure though.
Dezmond Looking at the Pearl printout.
Dezmond when He puts his hands on his head after Locke breaks the monitor on the floor... just before saying you've killed us all.
Dezmond kissing the key after he retrieves it from A turn of the Screw.
Something with an explosion and Dez jumping for cover... not sure where it is from.
Back to the key turning... then to his OPEN eye. (indicating he isn't going to die... lol
Also noted:
The paint bucket has text partially covered by red paint and the remaining text is
"FUTU"
Short for Future perhaps...
okay its getting too late for me. . . my nerd side is showing up in my posts. i will take a break and read up tomorrow. have a great night all!
experimentalfilm said...think of how many instances that charlie could have died in:
- a plane crash (duhh)
- the cart in the plane that he dodges away from but almost crushes him
- the cart in the HATCH that he dodges away from but almost crushes him
- the explosion that eko initiates in the hatch
- when ethan hangs him from a tree
- a bad heroin trip ?
- when they first crash - he's super high, and a giant piece of flaming metal almost crushes him but ends up behind him instead
- the monster, as seen in the 23rd psalm
- maybe hte wild boar, when locke uses him for bait
This is a really good point. 9 lives for sure. Charlie is one of the characters that is referred to as "special". And Charlie has always felt like he had to save Aaron... So save Charlie, save Aaron...save the world? haha
Guess "see ya in anotha life brotha" has a whole new significance now.
Guess most everyone has gone to bed or is watching for the 2nd time.
who knows what song is on the Jukebox in the bar. It starts out sounding a lot like Downtown, the song Juliett played on her cd player, but it's not. It is some 60's song and the hook sounds like "Play the wrong kind of music."
Also, a couple other notes I made:
Desmond is not worthy and people mentioned this above. He intially thinks he can change history, but then reverts back to the I can't mentallity ultimately because he thinks he is a unworthy person. Even though Penny tells him he is a good man. He vows to change things when he is returned to the island and begins trying. But does he doesn't beleive yet.
Charlie's impending death. Can't say this would hurt my feelings. I have thought for a long time that TPTB ran out of story lines for Charlie and should have killed him off instead of Echo.
Old Gray lady. Is she really his conscious, or perhaps another representation from OZ. I was thinking maybe she is the good witch Glenda?
Still think Penelope and Claire are much hotter than Kate and Juliett. I'm a sucker for a girl with an accent!
The song is Mama Cass "Make your own Kinda Music"
another good egg about Charlie's middle name on the sign he used while playing his guitar. Charlie Hieronymus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_machine
thanks Ded. guess there is a little more symbolism there. Play your own kinda music. Could be make your own version of history.
diggity- I can't get that link for the easter eggs to work- is something wrong with the link, or is it just me?
Itwas also the song he chose to plat in the season 2 premiere.
DiggityDirge said...
another good egg about Charlie's middle name on the sign he used while playing his guitar. Charlie Hieronymus
That is really interesting. TPTB don't miss a trick.
another good catch Ded! At first pass I thought this epi was pretty striaght forward, until I re-watched and realized it was chuck full of imagery and symbolism.
In regards to the recent discussions re: precog and telekinetic powers (in both this and the previous thread)- one really weird theory I have is that maybe Jacob has precog powers (or the equivalent of Desmond's pre-knowledge) and actually controls the smoke monster (some kind of matter) based on the precog knowledge. Basing this on the fact that Rousseau said the monster was a security system, I wonder if it's sort of like a Minority Report scenario. ehh- I haven't really taken the time to think it through- just something that occurred to me a while back.
Wow those ads at the soccer game include every product LOST has ever used! That's really neat. And what about that Kronos...is that a new one?
Wow it's getting late...I've got to make myself go to bed. See ya'll tomorrow.
me too! I'm in Houston this week on business and it is almost 1:00 a.m. Good night all.
One final note in honor of my valentine's present from my girlfriend. If you thought TiVo was a good invention, for those of you have travel a lot and aren't around for your favorite shows, check out the slingbox. (slingbox.com) Broadband connection, $35 dollars a month. Directv, $85 a month. Tivo $200. Slingbox, $175. Being able to watch TV, your recorded shows, and control our Tivo through the web, priceless. My girlfriend rocks.
Night all.
Trying to catch up! OMG, my head is spinning!
My friends, LOST is back. The mystery, suspense, and intrigue that hooked me in Season 1 (and, quite frankly, was absent in the latter half of Season 2 and the beginning of Season 3) is undeniably back.
At first, I thought that the quality of last week's episode was a fluke, like Eko's last episode. I had thought that LOST jumped the shark.
But...I don't know how they did it. They brought it all back. Everything that I loved about LOST. And, it wasn't a fluke. They carried the same quality to this episode. The same mystery and suspense.
My faith is restored.
Not sure if it matters, but Kronos Titandioxid is an additive for paint... Maybe pointing back to the paint can that might say FUTURE on it... hmmmmmmmmm?
i'm not sure WHAT to think of that episode.
I feel that it was him "reliving" his past when he was knocked unconscious and he was trying to change things because he feels horrible about the way things were "left" with his life.
sure, he corrected the bartender's injury by having him duck. However, that was his "dreamscape" mimicking what was happening to him in the REAL world.
Example: in a dream, say you someone hits you. in your real life, your body experiences trauma to that area because you fall off the bed and hit the end table or something to THAT effect.
i think (for now) it can be explained with rational thought.
However......the thing with Charlie and Claire..........dunno.
anyone also get the idea that we have a little of "neo and the oracle" thing going on with desmond and the old lady???
and last night's show was more along the lines of a mix of Donnie Darko and Final Destination.
eh.
3 things to be answered next week, huh?
okay, i know we wanted doors closed before opening more. but does anyone get the feeling that they're doing too much, TOO FAST????
or just TOO MUCH period?
here's the thing. i don't mind seeing a show or movie that's like 2 or even 3 movies mixed as one. HOWEVER.......36 in 1 is just retarded.
"smokey", four-toed statue (Darwinism in my opinion), time travel, clarivoyance, telepathy, etc. the list goes on and on.....
okay fine........answer THREE in ONE SHOW, but for God's sake, answer three SMALL ones and save the "BIG" questions to be answered ove the course of 2 or 3 episodes or something.
you know, "life is not without a sense of irony" as the producers, creators and writers of this show are IN FACT "enslaved to time and sapce". Because if they don't tie up loose ends by the end of the NEXT season, then they will NEVER be explained. Because i think someone is pulling the plug at ABC on this show and they've been given (this season) and the next to finish.
pressed for "time" guys? i get that, but come on. don't do "too much".
Hopefully, it will just be simple things.
anyhoo........
Good Morning, wow took me a bit to read through from last night, also, sorry in advance for the long post, I hate that Lost is now on 10-11, as I CAN’T SLEEP thinking about all of this. So, HOORAY 2 hour delay from work so I can clean out my brain.
Okay:
1. Donnie Darko, Final Destination, GroundHog Day…pick one. Great episode. I can’t decide if it was the dream of a man knocked unconscious, or really Des going back to the beginning. Bear with me. When people dream, they insert things that they know, memories, etc. Desmond certainly qualifies for this. The number 23, the delivery for 815, the polar bear painting, the microwave reminding him of the button, the music, seeing Charlie, etc. While neat, and oohhhh the numbers-ish, that to me screams dream where he is inserting random bits from his life.
I would like to think that we have been given the answer to how Des got his precognition, but I am just not sure. I think right now I am more of the mind that he had a good whomp on the head, he was knocked out for a bit, and something was activated. You hear stories of “psychics” all the time that didn’t have their “gift” until *fill-in-the-blank* happened. I DO think that Desmond knows what is going to happen, but I am not sure that he knows from the very beginning. If anything, I think we were given some insight into why Desmond is who he is, and how he ended up feeling like he is worthless.
2. As for A Wrinkle in Time, Sawyer was reading. You can wiki it (it is one of my favorites though), and basically uses a theory of a tesseract, which is the folding of space and time to get from point A to point B. Faster than light travel. One image from the book that I always think of is one character showing a spider walking on a thread, she folds the thread in half, and poof, the spider is at the other end. If what happened to Des in this episode was not a dream, perhaps the hatch implosion triggered some kind of folding through time and space. Although I still vote dream…Now, if that woman from the antique/jewelry store shows up on the island, I will eat everything I said about that =).
ange: i'm torn too.
on one side, i can ACCEPT the sci-fi thing now, because they're all over the map now anyway.
however, the "rational" side of me wants it to be a "dream-type" situation.
anyone ever read "the thief of always" by clive barker??
that might be an interesting "twist" as well.
ange: also, the "correction" of the bartender getting hit was actually his subconscious "giving way" to the pain of a head injury due to the blast.
Chronos (not Kronos) is the personification of time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos
Great episode. Looks like when Desmond returned from his past, he overshot the time and landed a little bit ahead of the rest of the losties, hence his "precognition." Howz that sound?
Good morning fellow Locos... what an excellent episode. Going to catch up on the comments now and hopefully clarify some stuff.
Catch ya'll on the rebound...
so the nakedness is a-la "the terminator"?? no inanimate objects may "travel". only living tissue??
and funny.....if he landed AHEAD of them........ummm.........how did he get BACK again, so that he's NOW WITH them to tell them what is going to happen??
eh.
Chuckez3, don't confuse me with logic. ;)
When I wikied Hieronymous, I got Geronimo (no Jackson.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus
hahaha.
Hell barbarajay, i don't even confuse myself with that. However, i TRY to keep rationale in play when it comes to the show.
I'm open to all sorts of theories, but for some reason, my mind won't let it just become a pure science fiction issue.
Okay. In Lost World, Dez interacts with Penny & Co even though they are in his past. Similarly, he interacts with the losties, even though they are in his past. He doesn't remember everything clearly because he was with Penny at the time.
I think there was time travel, not dreams, but I don't know how it works.
wv: suweal (This stowy line is suweal.)
barbarjay
Yeah I was thinking along those line too. I said last night that Desmond told Charlie that when he turned the key he saw flashes of his life and he was still seeing them. I was thinking maybe that might mean Desmond is in a time agead of the rest of the Losties and he is seeing his past not their future. But I guess it would be future to them but to Desmond it had already happened.
barbara: errrr?? what the hell did you just say?? hahahaha.
and here's the thing.
Desmond is there with them at the present moment. so, what i'm getting at is this. you can't exist in the future or past while occupying the present.
so, please clarify what you're saying.
if you don't mind. not being a butt-munch. just maybe not reading it right.
Ange Said: 2. As for A Wrinkle in Time, Sawyer was reading. You can wiki it (it is one of my favorites though), and basically uses a theory of a tesseract, which is the folding of space and time to get from point A to point B. Faster than light travel.
It also could be the improbability drive from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy!!
That was a great episode and my brain really hurt last night and I could not comment. But everything I was thinking has been said...
Barbarjay, I am with you, don't confuse me with LOGIC either!!
Good Morning Everyone!
So if this is Day Break, and Desmond's next flashback/time travel has him re-living the same event, maybe next time he'll save the guy in the red shoes. Plus, he'll tell Penny that he is going to disappear in his boat race around the world, and the only way she can find him is to look for a magnetic anomaly.
Personally, I'm going with the bonk-on-the-noggin theory.
and the reason it doesn't "jive" is also this:
if you PHYSICALLY time-travel to the past, you will arrive and see yourself going through these actions.
NOT mentally take over.
so "traditional" time travel is NOT in play here. maybe an "out of body" experience perhaps.
but you can't travel BACK and "replace" the PAST version of you.
and traveling to the future is actually not as easily explained as the past, because there are infinite number of occurrences that could happen and the human minds and decisions that come into play with every second leading up to the future.
Unless you believe in a pre-destined future. but even THEN, you'll have to take into account the many "routes" that can lead to the outcome. hence the valenzetti equation.
you have to change "all" the factors of the formula in order to change the outcome. not one or even a few, but ALL.
and even if traveling forward is possible, you STILL have to realize that YOU will still be there. all you're gonna' do is see the ultimate outcome. the only way to change the future is through the past. but if everything is "pre-destined", you simply ACCEPT things for what they are and move on.
I also thought about the movie Groundhog Day with Bill Murray...which is a classic and he thought since he was waking up each day as the same day that there were things he needed to do different in order to get out of the loop...we know that Dez is not in a loop unless his loop is several days or months at a time...which would suck re-living the same month over and over...
thrasher: it also goes in play with "Event Horizon". GREAT movie, btw.
Lawrence Fishburne, Sam Neil, etc.
Okay I have a question. How does what happened to Desmond fit in with the season 2 ending with Penny and the guys in the wintery hut? Anyone have any theroies on that?
Time travel is not possible as evidence by Uncle Rico and Kip in Napoleon Dynamite! GOSH!
The woman who played Ms. Hawking was played by Fionnula Flanagan.
She was in a movie called ... dun dun duh ... The Others!
hahahah.
Napoleon Dynamite. And hair relaxer didn't exist for that poor kid, either.
"gosh"
I'll be around later on tomorrow, I need to get to work, but all in all I am glad to see the "good" Lost is back! And this community is freakin' awesome!!
Later guys!
got this for reading enjoyment.
by hanna tucker (about Lost):
FOR HUME THE BELL TOLLS:
Let me see if I understand: Desmond ended up on the island because he broke up with Penny and then entered the sailing race to show up her scotch-hoarding father. Then it was three years of stationary-bike riding and obedient button pushing, et cetera, et cetera. Right up until the day Desmond turned the fail-safe key and the Hatch blew up. Then, he traveled back in time and was offered another chance not to break up with Penny, enter a sailing race, and get shipwrecked. What's to keep a guy from choosing Door #2, a.k.a. the option where you don't live alone underground for three years? Oh, right: Everyone could die if he doesn't.
I can see why Desmond was unnerved by the woman who wouldn't sell him the ring — she was also pretty creepy in that Nicole Kidman film called...The Others. I'm positive I still don't understand what Desmond's ''secret'' tells us about how time works on the island. At first, the whole thing seemed a bit nonsensical. The white-haired woman pointed out the man in the red shoes to illustrate determinism — he was going to die; the question was simply when and how. Yet she told Desmond that if he didn't find his way to the island and push that button every 108 minutes, ''every one of us will be dead.'' So Desmond must have had the ability to not do these things: free will. Thanks to a quick Wikipedia refresher course on philosopher David Hume, however, it all makes sense. Kinda. Basically, Hume's theory of compatibilism posits that free will and determinism both exist, and that what we do with our lives is essentially the result of these two concepts butting against each other. In other words, things are going all Sophie's World on us: Desmond Hume is living one of David Hume's theories.
Compatibilism aside, I simply enjoyed Desmond's flash. (I'm not certain yet whether is was a flashback or not.) It gave Henry Ian Cusick a chance to do so much more than just brood and generally not explain himself. And the twist at the end — when we learned that Desmond had been trying to save Charlie, not Claire, from imminent death — was excellent and unexpected. And here I thought we were going to spend this episode hearing Locke go on about how the island killed Mr. Eko. (Not that I have anything against Mr. Eko; I'm just not ready to revisit the whole polar-bear thing yet.)
I think it's clear, however, that Charlie cannot die. You're with me, right? The balance on the island would be completely upset. Claire needs a partner, Hurley needs a buddy, we all need to see backstories where a character sings Oasis songs. It just wouldn't be the same without Charlie. Desmond must know this, and that's why he's fighting to save Charlie's life rather than accept defeat or, as it were, determinism. But none of this is up to us TV Watchers...or is it?
What do you think? Can you find any significance in the name of the scotch: MacCutcheon? Like Desmond, is Juliet also privy to glimpses of the future (such as her ex getting hit by the bus)? Is the white-haired woman the first ''outside'' person (i.e., not one of the future castaways) who has betrayed knowledge of the island in a backstory (or simul-story) sequence? Did Claire always have bangs? Is Alan Dale the only actor who's allowed to play rich SOBs on TV? And who else is excited about (maybe) finding out what happened to the children next week?
I posted last night that Admiral McCutecheon was a character in 20,000 leagues under the sea. Another book reference. I am looking for thebook police to shed some light on the contrast between LOST and the book since I haven't read it in 15 years.
I also believe someone on the island was reading that book at one point in time. Anyone remember who?
Chucklez, I'm not sure how much I can clarify, so go ahead and munch butt. I'm still trying to see how well this works.
Dez has to have psychic powers or has experienced this before and remembers it. Knowing that Charlie would die twice (lightning and drowning) complicates the time travel idea because he would have to have seen the future twice. That's a lot of going back and forth.
Also, how long was Dez is Penny Land and how long was he missing from the island? Was he missing from the island?
I'm chewing this over rather than proposing a definite answer.
I'm not sure if everyone has read the comments from last night, but everyone should go back and read them. Some good stuff on wizard of oz references (the guy with the red shoes), music being used to date the travel, and the significance of Charlie singing wonderwall when desmond encounters him in his time travel. Just seems too coincidental that the lyrics of that song, "I say maybe, your going to be the one that saves me. And after all, your my wonderwall."
I like the Charlie nine lives theory posted last night also.
If anyone wants to make a FAKE Lost website like the Mittelos site, the domain MacCutcheon.com is not registered... :)
I would do it, but I just don't have any free time right now...
Perhaps it is a Final Destination type of thing that you can't cheat death forever....ok, now I am gone!
*POOF*
or is it
*BAMF*
later nightcrawler....ermmm......thrasher
okay......here's the deal.
i'm beginning to question the "intentions" behind the EXPERIENCE now.
because they said that the show can be explained rationally and logically.
then the experience comes out and we have all these SCIENTIFICALLY sound experiments happening for the means of the Hanso Foundation and the DHARMA Initiative.
But now, we're getting all this "sideshow crap" that's all "fantastical". Come on writers/producers, continuity please????
if DHARMA and Hanso were going to be done totally differently from the show with the experience, they shoulda' just given them different names and made it a totally separate ARG, scavenger hunt.
ugh.
I'm still with you barbarajay
It does seem that Desmond has experienced the past more than once since he has saved Charlie more than once. Also this is not an exact quote but when he woke up back in the jungle he said something like let me go back I'll do it right or fix it this time again not an exact quote but it does lead you to believe that he has done this more than once.
And what are the consequences of the button not getting pushed anymore since the woman told him if he didn't they would all die?
The new Lost and Found stuff is up on ABC.com.
Use 888-258-3741 to login.
sayid'sgirl said:
It does seem that Desmond has experienced the past more than once since he has saved Charlie more than once.
I thought that too, but then how would you explain him not knowing Charlie in his flashback? If he had gone back more than once, and again I reference Groundhog Day, wouldn't he start knowing what was going to happen, and who he was going to see?
Wow, what an episode. We'll be dissecting this one for a long time, no doubt.
Well, the way I see it, it seems that either one of two things happened (very long post ahead):
1. The "relatively straightforward" scenario:
- Desmond turns the key and his life (or a period of it, at least) flashes before his eyes.
- Everything we (the viewers) see in his "flash" is only happening in his mind.
- In his mind, he is intermixing memories of his past in Britain with his memories of what has happened to him on the island so far.
- In his mind, the jewelry lady is not a real person but a manifestation of his subconscious.
- We (the viewers) can now cautiously guess at what really happened in Desmond's life in the late 1990's (we have to be careful however, since this is not a true flashback, rather the imagery inside a confused mind).
- It is probably safe to infer that Des and Penny did actually move in together, that Des asked Mr. Widmore for approval to marry Penny, that Des was rejected by Widmore and lectured on whiskey, that Des failed to buy a ring for Penny but they did have their picture taken together, that Des was inspired to join the military after seeing the recruitment poster, that he had a physicist friend, etc.
- If everything is taking place only in his mind, then we the viewers are also learning a lot about what Desmond believes: He believes that he is essentially a coward, that he does not have much worth as an individual but was truly doing the noble thing and saving the world by pushing the button and turning the key, that he is conflicted about whether the world is governed by free will or determinism, and that he wishes (but does not truly believe) that he and Penny will live happily ever after.
- The whack on his head by the cricket bat was imaginary and only served to jolt him out of his dreamlike state.
OR
2. The "sci-fi time travel" scenario:
- Desmond turns the key and is transported into the past back to the time he fell off the ladder.
- Transported may not be the best word, however, since there are not two Desmonds existing at the same time. Rather, he is "reliving" several days from his past (whatever that means).
- If this scenario is true, the jewelry lady really did exist and is a person of extraordinary knowledge about the nature of time, space, and the universe.
- Desmond really did have a conversation with his physicist friend about the island and really did throw the ring into the river. In which case, it might explain the mystery of why Penny was apparently searching for Desmond by monitoring for EM anomalies--she could have heard all about the island from Des's physicist friend!
- We (the viewers) learn that determinism, rather than free will, is the governing force in our universe.
- And, the cricket bat actually did hit Desmond and propel him "back forward" to the island.
I hope the first scenario is the correct one, but who knows? Either way, I love it!
exactly. that's why i don't buy the "time travel" thing.
i think he mentally "traveled back" to change things, but it was all subconscious.
remember.......what's ONE THING that can't be confined by time and space (that humans know of). two things actually. black holes (which are still not 100% proven) and OUR THOUGHTS!!
we can go anywhere and do anything in our minds!!
no bounds.
totally with YOU on that (first one) blueheron13
Yeah Chucklez,
I hope my first scenario is correct because I would prefer that time travel not be used as a plot device.
thank you!!!
i'm trying to keep things in a logical perspective.
However, nearly EVERY theory that's mentioned is "plausible". however, i think that's the writers/producers' way of keeping "alternate" routes of leading to the end, etc.
blueheron13 said...And, the cricket bat actually did hit Desmond and propel him "back forward" to the island.
That could be a new expression...
"I'll whack you with a cricket bat so hard, it'll knock you into the future!" :)
IWYWACBSHIKYITF!
i'll knock you into sunday and be waitin' for you on monday!! ---Robin Harris (House Party)
Morning all (or is it? LOL)
Great comments (finally caught up)! This episode was so awesome and thought-provoking. Thanks to Blueheron who put it very well. It's either one of two things: Inside Desmond's mind or the sci-fi time travel theory. After sleeping on what happened on the show, I'm tending to go with the straight-forward theory of the "flash" was a manifestation of Desmond's past and his feeling's of cowardice of how he dealt with everything. The word "coward" was used over and over last night. He didn't fight for Penny and stand up against her father, he didn't have the gumption to give her the ring, he joined the military but something happened there that showed more cowardice, and he spent 3 years of his life pushing a button like a zombie.
Time was also a major theme again last night. The clock with the 108, the lady in the antique shop had various clocks set at different times (thanks to DarkUFO's blog). Desmond's friend, Donovan says there's no such thing as time travel.
I think the ring lady was a manifestation of all he felt about the importance of pushing that button...sort of a rationalization for 3 years of his life...that something he was doing was important and not cowardly.
Sorry for the long post...just my gut thoughts, but I'm open for anything on this show!
Good one, Dennis!
Anyway, I'd also like to say that regardless of which scenario is correct, we are still left we the following mysteries we had before:
1. Exactly what happened to the hatch during the discharge event? It looks like a lot stuff from the hatch was jettisoned out (including Locke, Eko, and Desmond himself) but other stuff imploded (or maybe disappeared?).
2. What exactly happened to Desmond during the blast (besides losing his clothes)?
3. Why does Desmond now have this future-seeing ability? He clearly did not exhibit such a power before the blast.
4. What happened during Desmond's time in the military?
Maven,
I like that--the concept of "rationalizing". Thanks for the compliment, by the way. I hope my post doesn't put other Bloggers to sleep if they try to read it!
I like the way this second half is playing out because of one simple observation:
The writers think they've got game.
They're raising the stakes of storytelling this season. A sci-fi time manipulation storyline? Revealing that the Others are unaffiliated with DHARMA, but have their own reach into the outside world? Another group of Others on the island that are related to DHARMA?
Regardless of how you feel about the number of "answers" we're being given, you've got to recognize that the writers feel they've got something towards which they can accelerate.
In other words, I'm frickin' jazzed.
i still didn't see "reach" into the outside world.
when did that happen?
the writers haven't taken their foots off the dad-blame gas pedal since the first show. Problem is, THEY are "lost". Who's got the dad-blame map???? Oh that's right, it WAS in the hatch!!! And the copy of it was "released" by Locke.
Hmmm..........Are we the "gas stations" in their fantasyland?? Will they EVER pull over to ask for directions??
Probably not. I'll sit here on the bus bench and watch them drive in nothing but right turns, trying to get to their left.
G'day, Lost Fans:
It occurs to me that Desmond may be experiencing the kind of time travel depicted in the movie Primer.
In that film, in order to go backward or forward in time, you had to experience all of the time in between, albeit at an accelerated pace.
After 3 long years of pushing that button, I think Desmond felt the weight of the world on his shoulders as he kept pushing that button. The Ring Lady "told" him that what he was doing was important..."If you don't do those things, every single one of us are dead." She says, "Pushing the button is the only truly great thing you'll ever do." All of this was Desmond's mind rationalizing the past 3 years of his life...that there was a purpose and he was not a coward. And whatever he does do in the future can't change anything, everyone is on a certain path, and no matter what you do, the universe can't be stopped. You're fate is out of your hands.
(My fate is out of my hands: 3x to post!)
I'm jazzed, too, thebookpolice.
Chuck,
The Others' (apparent) reach into the outside world was illustrated by their using a fake company (Mittelos) to recruit (kidnap) Juliet in 2001.
I looked through all the post, and I dont think I seen a post that really says this:
Did you notice the majority of the episode was a "flash back" of Dez. This flash back was occurring while he was strangling Charlie (Island Time) However in the flash back there was flash forwards. It is getting kind of deep. So in a sense it was a flash back but in a sense it was a flash forward, because within the flash back there were flash forwards. (My head hurts)
Interesting Heros/Lost connection pointed out by the E! Kristen blog:
Um, Are The Characters Show-Hopping?!: OMG! Did anyone notice that Desmond's professor friend is also Mohinder Suresh's friend on Heroes?! Could this be a crossover?! We all know Hiro can time travel. Plus, in the last ep of Heroes, they showed a pamplet for Gannon Rent-a-Car, which is totally a fictional company from the Lost world! Also, some of the Heroes writers came from the Lost camp. I smell a conspiracy. A really nerdy yet cool conspiracy! Will Peter's bomb blast the Heroes to Lost island? Just a crazy thought!
no. it shows that the outside world can bring people and things THERE to the island. not that the island folk can "leave" or even have contact.
in my opinion, you're there. period. the "outside world" (mittelos and friends) contact YOU when THEY are ready to do so.
so no. i haven't seen anything yet to substantiate them being able to leave the area.
Actually it is kinda a double flash back (may have to re watch it) He was flashing back the the flash back he had after the hatch imploded/exploded.
oh god.
okay, let's "nip this crap" quick, fast and in-a-hurry.
there is NO "LINK" between lost and heroes!!! two separate groups of people and two SEPARATE NETWORKS!!!!
if ABC and NBC were to ever "coexist" as one story-telling entity, the world as we know it would implode. nice try, but no cigar.
derek: there you go.
;)
Chucklez3: But Heroes and Lost both used Gannon Car Rental...even using the same brochure!
chucklez3 said...there is NO "LINK" between lost and heroes!!! two separate groups of people and two SEPARATE NETWORKS!!!!
NBC makes references to Lost in other shows as well... SNL and The Office to name a few that I watch.
since it's a made-up name, neither show has a "copyright" to it. anyone could use it. even the simpsons. but i hardly see a link there, too........wait. four toes.....hmmm.........
but seriously, that's like using "ACME".
you can "REFERENCE" anything if you really want. the idea i'm getting at is, storyline. in "the office", are we gonna' see a CROSSOVER???
come on dennis. you know what i mean.
hell, how many times have we seen references of say "walker: texas ranger" on "family guy"??? Good lord. means nothing.
next up: "Grey's Anatomy" / "24" crossover!!!
Good Morning Loco's - wow, my head is still humming. I need to rewatch this episode and try and wrap my brain around it.
dennis - at the end of last night's show, Desmond said he has saved Charlie twice, so has he repeated that day twice or is he now in Day 3, or is he reliving more than just a day at a time?
I think the Heroes and Lost connections are just for fun, the writers probably know they share a lot of the same audience.
But Chuck, I respectfully disagree with you about the Others' reach. While nothing is certain, it looks to me like the Others have (or maybe had?) at least the ability to communicate with those in the outside world.
Well, I'm not going to bother working hard to keep things logical. There's not much logic in a group of numbers turning up all over the earth and a lot of other Lost events fall apart if I try. So.....
IF (I said if) Dezzy really can traverse folded time/space, perhaps there is a chance that what TPTB showed us last night is only a SMALL portion of what Dez went through in his travels after he turned the key. He could have also gone into the future as well, and seen the events that happened to Charlie, rather than just sensing them as a psychic in the present (the island present). I know, this leaves a lot to faith in the fact that TPTB are putting time travel into the show, so no need to say that time travel is ridiculous, because of course it is. I'm just sayin'.
And IF time travel is in the show, I wonder if it's one of the things that the DI set out to accomplish, or if it was an unfortunate by-product of The Incident?? If it was on purose, perhaps they were trying to go into the future to tell the future people to wise up to The Equation. Again, I'm just sayin'. :o)
Remember that at the time Arthur C. Clarke wrote the first book about satellites in geosynchronous orbit, it was considered an impossibility. So....some science fiction today, doesn't necessarily have to be impossible in the future.
BTW, if y'all have never seen the History Channel special on "How William Shanter Changed the Universe" (I think that's how they worded the title), I highly recommend it. He does a great explaination of folded space with a slice of pizza (or was it the paper plate, I forget).
Y'all are in great form last night and today for this episode! TX to everyone for the links and references, and especially the interesting summary by Hanna Tucker, Chucklez.
"Save Charlie, save Aaron, save the world"...seriously, you guys all slay me! :-D
it's cool blueheron. a lot of us contradict each other, but you and i share a lot of views. no offense taken.
but hey. any "examples"??
jgz350,
I don't think Desmond traveled time, I think we just refering to the two times on the island he saved Charlie's life--once by buliding the lightening rod so Charlie wouldn't get struck, and the second time by diving into the ocean after Claire so Charlie wouldn't end up doing so (and drowning). I'm guessing that Des twice saw that Charlie was in peril and interceded. The question now is, is Charlie meant to die, how often can Des save him, and can Charlie's "fate" be averted somehow?
Blueheron said: ..."we the viewers are also learning a lot about what Desmond believes: He believes that he is essentially a coward, that he does not have much worth as an individual..."
Wow, that makes me very sad.
I also got the more of a sense after last night that the show is mostly about Desmond and revolves around him, like many people mentioned after we got our first glimpse of the Dez/Penny story (end of S-2 I guess).
people may have said those scientific advances were not gonna' happen. they did.
but it's been a belief that time travel is INDEED impossible for eons. until someone proves otherwise, it will always be.....impossible.
I'll say this though. I'd LOVE for this to take a similar route that "Event Horizon" took. opening a dimensional gateway (intentional or not) to travel vast distances or even time, instantly. but it's inter-dimensional travel. maybe it opened up a dimension that should've never been tampered with. (smokey)--Hell.
okay I think I've straightened something out in my head.
I'm not sure Desmond went back in time as far as Charlie is conserned. He just seen tht Charlie was going to die and stopped it. Like the woman said if she stopped it the next day something else would kill the man and if stopped that day the next day something else. I just think Desmond is seeing Charlies new death each day and stopping it. But like you said blueheron13 how long can he keep doing it.
Now for the flashbacks and the overlapping time lines. Could Desmond been in room 23 and given an alternate past and now his real past and the alternate one is overlapping in his mind. I know a little crazy but why not.
Chuck,
I'm thinking of things like:
- Juliet's info on Jack.
- The recorded baseball game.
- Ben's other knowledge about 2004 world events.
- The comment one of the Others made: something like "ever since the sky turned purple, our comms are down" (not sure of exact quote).
- The broadcast of the numbers was picked up off the island by both Danielle and Hurley's mental hospital acquaintance.
Plus, I'm going with the theory that the Others realized that they can't have children, learned about an amazing fertility doctor (Juliet), and decided that they had to have her. So they had her abducted.
It's definitely true that we've seen no evidence that anyone can physically leave the island. But I think communication is (was) possible.
Off to lunch and will lurk later.
"They did". That's my point.
Forgive my obtuseness, but is J.J.Abrams involved with Heroes as well? I never bothered to look at the credits or info about it (I was a late-comer viewer), and I noticed that his actor friend that he puts in everything he does is in it. I think it's fun that the shows might reference each other, due in part to the fact of the similar audiences, as someone said.
Hello LoCo! I gotta say, I'm not loving the time travelling Desmond story. In a series as complicated as Lost already is, throwing this in the mix is (to me) unnecessarily over-complicating. Also, it doesn't make sense. I won't get into the whole time travel possibility debate since after all we have to suspend a LOT of disbelief with Lost, but for those of you who are interested in the science of time and space, I can recommend a terrific book called "The Fabric of the Cosmos" written by a physicist named Brian Greene. He explains some pretty complicated theories in a way the average Joe Geek can understand.
Science aside, who among the female LoCo's was delighted to see Desmond rip his shirt off and dive in after Claire?
The info could've been given to her or she may have even "heard of him" (the medical community).
the game was "shipped in" or even recorded from the island somewhere. no one left to get it.
Again, Ben's knowledge doesn't mean he has left. This can all be given to the Others.
Communications could mean either "between the other stations or even islands" or.........with the the "mother company" superiors. not the "free world".
Hurley's hospital acquaintance was never really on the island, btw.
the fertility thing........nah. DHARMA (Mittelos) recruited her for this.
They're trying to make the "perfect" human to survive the future (the "END").
But in a nutshell, sure. communications, maybe.
However, no one leaves.........muahahahahaha
Chucklez - You're awfully confident about a lot of stuff. And on matters of LOST theory, there's a lot of room for debate. So while you might be right, you might also be wrong. Tone it down with the exclamation marks, maybe.
And one might want to check one's TV history before one starts slamming cross-network plot interaction.
The X-Files (a show with which Damon and Carlton are very familiar) crossed over with both Homicide: Life on the Street, and Picket Fences. That's Fox touching plot events/licensed characters on (respectively) NBC and CBS.
It could happen. And given the power of these two shows right now, I wouldn't rule anything out.
capcom: no. he's not. not in any "creative" means. however, many writers/producers/directors/actors have crossed paths and some become "associated". things happen. doesn't mean that his "actor friend" can't get work on his own.
Just because you see Bruce Campbell in something, doesn't mean Sam Raimi is involved.
capcom said... Remember that at the time Arthur C. Clarke wrote the first book about satellites in geosynchronous orbit, it was considered an impossibility. So....some science fiction today, doesn't necessarily have to be impossible in the future.
Same thing with 2001: A Space Odyssey. It came out in 1968, the year before the Apollo moon landing.
Sayid'sgirl said... I just think Desmond is seeing Charlies new death each day and stopping it. But like you said blueheron13 how long can he keep doing it.
This could be Desmond's raison d'etre. Instead of saving the world by pushing a button, he can save Charlie by predicting the future.
I am not sure who made the comment that if it were true time travel, Dez would have seen himself.
This comment was said as if you had first hand experience with time travel. How do you know? There are many possible explanations that can fight for both sides of this concept. You can say that he would have had to see himself if he was really back in time, or with all the movie references (Timecop) same matter can't occupy the same space. In Time cop it makes the guy cease to exist, but what if this is true and if you are sent back in time you naturally have to be somewhere, so th universe puts you where you belong... in your own skin.
Chucklez3,
No offence, but all the comments you have made so far are the reason for TPTB speeding up the pace. It's the complaints and the "Oh this couldn't happen in the real world" comments that are making them get all pissy and answer things so fast. Stop complaining and enjoy the show. All you seem to do is whine about how you don't like where the show is heading. Well some of us do.
Sure there can't be a LOST/HEROES crossover, but it is fun to think about. Like was said there are people who are probably friends within the two writing communities. If a friend of mine made a show and asked to use something I made for my show so that they did'nt have to pay Hertz or Enterprize a royalty, I would gladly do it and get a lil' kick out of it as well.
Last I would like to say that I do believe it was a form of time travel into the passed and not a dreamstate. It is very hard to change things in your dreams unless you are very tuned into your own subcon, which is impossible... that is why it is your subcon. if 6ou were to know what your subcon was thinking you would go crazy, because your subcon is the darkest most vile person you have or will ever encounter. It is the darkness and greed and disgusting pervert in all of us and it is hidden from our conscious mind for a reason.
What happened to Dez is simple in my eyes. He was teleported (or whatever) back in time and shifted into his own body since in that piece of time... that is where he belonged. He then starts to see visions of what has already happened to him on the island and puts the pieces together. He sees the future, because he is in the past. This in return reforms the connections of his mind in a way never seen before. It re-wires dez to be able to tell what is future from present... being in the past of course. Then when he messes with the time continuity by helping the bartender the loop is broken and he slingshots back to the present.(In the spider example given in an earlier post, the string bends into a loop and the spider goes from point a to point b, but what if it never let go of the a part of the string and when the string is broken it ends up back at point a having never realized it was in point b) Now in the present his mind having been re-wired is sending him messages of the future. Like he said the flashes didn't stop. He has gone back to the present but the gift continues to see the future.
That's where I stand and I think that some way or another this is the most logical way to look at it. Because just dreaming it is all a bit more far fetched then time travel to me anyway.
Just My Honest Opinion...
Hey FYSB!!!!!!! Nice to hear from you. I guess we could assume that you would not like the time travel thing, eh? :o)
I LOVE Brian Greene, and his book on his PBS show about string theory is great also! (title escapes me) And it has lots of illustrations for science freaks like me with very finite brain functions, who need pretty pictures to understand the theories. :-(
Wow. and Wow. So much to absorb, so much to digest. You are all making great points, and there's so much to choose from. They were right, this episode "blew our minds" (chase us away? not us!)
head hurts. I think I have a brain cramp. be back later.
Bookpolice, the X-Files referenced Pickett Fences??? Wow, that's funny. Can you remember what it was? (if that's what your link is for, sorry, I didn't go to it yet). The Files referenced a jillion TV things (among others), you are correct.
Yeah, Dennis, 2001! But sadly all the other things, like Von Braun's dream of a donut-shaped spinning space station, never happened. :-( And, Pan Am airlines collapsed before they ever got into space!
"confident"?? no. i've said it before. i stand firm (for some reason) that there can be more logical explanations, instead of crossing entirely into the realm of science fiction.
and are you the bookpolice or the punctuation police?
whatever. seems everyone else is up for "spirited debate", but you seem to mistake "passion" for "aggressiveness".
and when have i EVER said that i "know i'm right"???? never.
I've actually said (numerous times) that i'm open to all theories, because ANYTHING is possible right now. however, that won't change my opinion, if i think something more rational can actually be a reason, instead of synthetic black holes or whatever.
when did storylines of X-Files and Homicide and Picket Fences crossover in any season?
and sure. won't count it out.
but highly unlikely. especially since there are different writers/producers, etc. for each.
some fans WANT a crossover simply because they're both good shows, etc.
but to go from a show based mostly on science, to crossover to SUPERHERO laced ideas..........yeah, not gonna' watch the end if that happens.
maybe it was "RAVEN" from The Teen Titans that killed Eko. it's not smoke, but her powers!!
yeah, that's it!
whoops.......too many exclamation marks?
chucklez3 Event Horizon...LOVE IT!
Also, I have been trying to work somthing through all morning. From one of the many Lost boards I look at there were some stills from the previews for next week and the woman who was selling the ring (Do Not Click If You Don't Want to See Preview Stills). I am now really going with the fact that Desmond had a dream/flashback, and was inserting things from the island into that. If that is true, then perhaps the ring woman IS someone that Desmond has see. One of the Others, that we have NOT seen yet. Maybe something really was done to Des by the others (a la room 23), and we have yet to find out what it is.
I've been waiting to see you online thebookpolice! Isn't Admiral McKutcheon a character from 20,000 leagues under the sea, and do you have any thoughts on that?
P.S. you're right Bookpolice, TLC is a place for friendly banter, of friendly theories, by friendly people who **respectfully** agree or disagree with other people's theories.
Hey Capcom! Ya know, I wouldn't be opposed to the time travel plot if it helped answer other questions. And maybe that's where TPTB are taking us. After all, they hinted at it once before when Hurley and Sayid were listening to the radio. Maybe I'm just being greedy wanting more answers. However, wet shirtless Desmond made it easier to handle.
Brian Greene is my secret geek crush. "The Elegant Universe" is his other book.
Now another chick question...I'm not sure I understand why Penny has stuck with Desmond all these years. He broke up with her a while back. At some point after that he joined the army and then did a stint in jail with her dad intercepting all his letters. Then they have a brief encounter at the stadium before Desmond takes off on his boat race to recover his manhood. Then he's on the island for a couple of years. True love is one thing, but Penny, seriously, I think Dr. Phil would say she has some issues. Thoughts?
Ugh, if Lost is going to be like "Event Horizon" I'm leaving now. All they did in that movie was fight and yell with/at each other. :-p Anything beyond that story-wise was unrecognizable to me. Maybe I just didn't care enough to pay attention beyond the mega-conflicts going on.
Ange, when the ring lady got upset because Dez wanted to buy the ring, my first thought was that she is an Other. Second thought: How did they set this up? She knew about the hatch blow-up. Did she know about it the first time when he didn't buy the ring?
This is bizarre. I like it.
Ded: that's because if YOU PHYSICALLY travel back, your body will coexist in the same time as your PAST body. duh. it's based on the same physical principles of your basic PHYSICAL time-travel story. And yes. I've done it. (oh my god). And by the way, I specifically said, "PHYSICALLY". So, I DID make it clear what i meant. physically, two masses can't coexist in the same space. that's basic physics. but what i ALSO SAID was that if it was an "out of body thing", perhaps it could happen.
"Chucklez3,
No offence, but all the comments you have made so far are the reason for TPTB speeding up the pace. It's the complaints and the "Oh this couldn't happen in the real world" comments that are making them get all pissy and answer things so fast. Stop complaining and enjoy the show."
So I have control of the show because i have my own opinion that doesn't "jive" with science FICTION? hmm........well, it seems that I (unlike Desmond) am truly going to be remembered as someeone who made a difference int eh world. aaaahhhh.......THE POWER!!!! And who the F$#K complained about the show?? I certainly did NOT "complain".
"All you seem to do is whine about how you don't like where the show is heading. Well some of us do.
Sure there can't be a LOST/HEROES crossover, but it is fun to think about. Like was said there are people who are probably friends within the two writing communities. If a friend of mine made a show and asked to use something I made for my show so that they did'nt have to pay Hertz or Enterprize a royalty, I would gladly do it and get a lil' kick out of it as well."
as for the car rental.......that's my point. it can be used by whoever.
and as for you "claiming" that i'm whining......kiss my a$$.
it is more "possible" to be in control of your dreams than it is to travel through time.
if you knew your subonscience, it would cease to exist and you would actually have more control over your mind. That's actually something that could be possible (based on your "ideals" that we should not discount ANYTHING).
"What happened to Dez is simple in my eyes. He was teleported (or whatever) back in time and shifted into his own body since in that piece of time... that is where he belonged. He then starts to see visions of what has already happened to him on the island and puts the pieces together. He sees the future, because he is in the past. This in return reforms the connections of his mind in a way never seen before. It re-wires dez to be able to tell what is future from present... being in the past of course. Then when he messes with the time continuity by helping the bartender the loop is broken and he slingshots back to the present. (In the spider example given in an earlier post, the string bends into a loop and the spider goes from point a to point b, but what if it never let go of the a part of the string and when the string is broken it ends up back at point a having never realized it was in point b) Now in the present his mind having been re-wired is sending him messages of the future. Like he said the flashes didn't stop. He has gone back to the present but the gift continues to see the future."
Yeah, really "simple". sounds to me like you simple "accepted" the idea without explanation of "how". hahaha.
"That's where I stand and I think that some way or another this is the most logical way to look at it. Because just dreaming it is all a bit more far fetched then time travel to me anyway."
most logical? does logic have a different meaning in your world?
hmmm.......you dream every week. when's the last time you traveled through time?
Ange,
We were saying last night that the ring woman looks an awful lot like the woman from the lost moment and the preview of the next episode from last night. The one that reads Jacks tattoo's. So that is a possibility. But when would he have seen her. There really isn't any lost time after the hatch implosion, because he wakes up the same day, I don't think he could have been taken to room 23 and brought back in the amount of time it takes for Hurley to walk the Island, then again he is a big boy... lol
So this leaves the idea that when he could have seen her was either while running away from the hatch the first time he left, or that it happened while he was on the boat driffting around drunk. I don't think so though. I think she really is a prophet and knew what was to become of Dez because it is her fate as well. She said he had to push the button until he turns the fail safe key, or they all die, I think she meant what she said as all of the people on the Island(s)would die because her destiny is to go there as well, and she knew this because being a prophet she was tapped by Dharma as well to go to the Island(s). They are very interested in gifted people after all.
oh, but "no offense" dedjezter.
kvonhard:
You may be interested to know that Javier Grillo-Marxuach was a writer and dirctor for the show "Charmed" before joining the team of "Lost."
Thanks FYSB for the title. Yeah, me too, Brian Greene kind of looks like Fox Muldur as well. Heehee.
Yes, the Penny waiting thing, good question. I wondered that back at the stadium too. Well, if I had unlimited amounts of money, and I knew that someone who loved me got lost or was being kept away from me, (and I wanted to go against Daddy's wishes) would I do what she's done? With all that money, yes, I'd give it a shot I suppose. If I didn't have the money to hunt the dog down, I'd say good riddance most likely.
so, the old lady is "Lost's" version of The Oracle, huh? the way things are going, who knows?
won't say that hasn't crossed my mind, because I actually mentioned it earlier.
However, I hope not. Are they all in an "alternate reality" now?
when he turned the key, did he get "shot" back out into the other reality and speak to the "oracle"?? is he the "neo" for our show??
Chucklez3 Said:
hmmm.......you dream every week. when's the last time you traveled through time?
Exactly my point. Dreaming doesn't send you back in time to relive things. Your mind makes dreams by determining what it is you need to overcome in your life. All dreams have meanings and are interpretations of what your mind thinks you need to deal with.... even if you don't.
I will not take any true side to this argument until they Have Charlie say something like... didn't you assault me in england once. That will solve it for me.
dedjezter said:
But when would he have seen her. There really isn't any lost time after the hatch implosion, because he wakes up the same day, I don't think he could have been taken to room 23 and brought back in the amount of time it takes for Hurley to walk the Island, then again he is a big boy.
Well, I was not thinking the same missing time you are. Des has been on that island for a while. Who is to say that something didn't happen to him before the plane crash. Maybe he was drugged and taken, with the help of Kelvin, etc... I just think that perhaps there is more to Desmond's time on the island than we really know yet, and that he has seen more than we have been shown. Also, I am still not 100% that the link I put up is showing the same woman...I would like to think it is, but I guess I'll have to wait until next week to know for sure.
Also, as an aside, does anyone know if they show Lost in the Bahamas (that's where I will be next Wednesday, and I am sort of stressed out about it) OH GOD...what has happened to me!?
I complained (raises hand). And I promised recently not to anymore, and I will just enjoy the show and the **friendly** and **respectful** exchange of ideas with all Lost-ites.
Wow, that Javier guy really gets around.
The tatoo/cage lady and the ring lady are two different actresses, but are we supposed to believe that they are the same person, but one being a younger version than the other? I'm confused now. Tx.
hahaha. dunno ange. good luck with that.
no tivo or vcr? (shutty)
capcom: same here.
as for the lady......i hope they're not. i know sometimes it's unavoidable for story purposes, but i'm hoping she's not the same character played by two different actresses. but if so, i at least hope that it's made apparent to us.
Ded, about Charlie saying that to Dez, very good. :-D In fact, it's amazing that Dez hasn't said, "You!" like he said to Jack, to every other person that he's seen before, in his dream/visons/time-travel. "You!...you!....and YOU!!!!!!!"
tonight, i will go to sleep and travel through time.
and when i wake up tomorrow, i will invent a dream machine!!!!!
hahahahaha
j/k
Am I the only one that thinks that this "flashback" was not a flashback at all?? Not a time travel game?? But the monster messing with Desmond??
Hey all, just popping in, wish I had time to read everything but only got as far as Dennis' comment- so forgive me if this has been said-
dennis said...
So if this is Day Break, and Desmond's next flashback/time travel has him re-living the same event, maybe next time he'll save the guy in the red shoes. Plus, he'll tell Penny that he is going to disappear in his boat race around the world, and the only way she can find him is to look for a magnetic anomaly.
Maybe that is why Penny is looking for the anomaly, maybe he did tell her but doesn't remember, but she knows she has to look for the anomaly to find the island and hence rescue the poor sap.
Also, ange made some good points (hey ange!) I am not completely sold that TPTB are being straight with us, kind of like they did with the Dave episode. We knew the secret wasn't supposed to be a dream yet they threw that epi in to amuse us. etc. Well gotta go! Hope to catch up later tonite.
bpfinn and tlc,
I'm still going to go with the "it happened in Desmond's mind" scenario for now. And for some reason, I don't think the monster is invovled. It doesn't feel right to me, somehow.
FYSB,
Was the first Brian Greene book you mentioned the one where he talks about space and time by using examples such as a spinning bucket of water (and Homer Simpson) floating in space?
Diggity,
To follow up on something you (and maybe some others) said a while back, Kate is OK, but I'd prefer to watch Claire and Pen. And, yep, the accent is part of the allure.
tlc i agree that desmonds precognigtion could all be explained by science. The dharma guys /eyepatch super computer guy could control the weather. When desmond was passed out he could have implanted these future memories in desmonds head ala the karl clockwork orange film, then used the super computer to make these weather events happen. I felt desmonds dream was a lot like matrix part 2. The only curious thing to me is desmond said his life passed before his eyes as if the deja vu stuff really already happened in the past, which was a lot like the hurley dave thing. Libby is also a part of both of hurley and desmonds's backstory. I am starting to think hurley had to watch a film like karl when he was in the mental ward. Why where both hurley and desmond oceanic employees in the dream sequence earlier this season??? If desmonds flashback was real why was charlie homeless and playing an oasis song. Around this time charlie would have been in a successful driveshaft and at the very least he would have played one of his own hit songs, so it seems that it was an alternate past. I wonder what zeke was gonna say to jack about why they didnt take ben somewhere for treatment. He said " when the sky turned purple..." this may answer why ben wanted locke to stop pressing the buttons he wanted everybody including the dharma guys to be trapped there...
Dennis, I thought you might get a kick out of this. When I was looking at the past acting of Nestor Carbonell (Dr. Alpert) I see he did an episode for Melrose Place. The name of the episode... Lost & Found!
blueheron...yep, that's the book. he uses really unique imagery to help you understand the concepts. i like the way the book progresses...he starts out helping you understand some basic concepts and then continues to build on them. using homer simpson definitely takes the intimidation factor way down when dealing with quantum physics.
I hope it wasn't a dream. That's so Dallas/Who Killed JR.
So could the folded thing on the right side of the painting represent folds in time and space?
::ducks::
http://www.gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=334
I honestly don't know what we are to believe: Dream or time travel. Right now... my opinion is a dream and the movie I was thinking of is 'Stay', which I loved by-the-way. As for knowing about Charlie, he said that is was a part of his 'flashes'. I'm patient, we'll see...
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