In tonight's episode, Locke seeks help to support his cause.
Locke... or Flocke?
Carlton Cuse says, "Don't miss tonight's episode. A number of things are illuminated."
We'll believe it when we see it!
(Thanks, maven, for the quote from Twitter!)
Tuesday, February 16, 2010
The Substitute - Season 6, Episode 3
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«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 480 of 480MEL-I see the analogy... just thought there might be something to go deeper with while we wait till Tuesday!
In a more literal sense, the inability to give birth on the island, certainly fits with all the generational lineage talk as well.
Many of you have probably already seen this... I had been wanting to look up the song that sawyer was listening to and found it at the docarzt site as Iggy and the Stooges "Search and Destroy" and the lyric cited is “I’m the runaway son of a nuclear A-Bomb”... but the rest of the lyrics that struck me are:
And honey I'm the world's forgotten boy
The one who's searchin', searchin' to destroy
I don't think Sawyer's on the right track... (or its a Smokey soundtrack, or a lead in to the boy we saw that frightened Flocke).
Here's a link to the rest (here's hoping it do it correctly):
link
In a more literal sense, the inability to give birth on the island, certainly fits with all the generational lineage talk as well......
as in if the generations ON the island can't be continued, and the island is supposed to be inhabited (maybe it isn't, forgot how posted that) people must always be brought in, and/or shipped out to give birth...with the promise of returning
I'm sorry..I've left a couple out of the metaphor..that wouldn't be fair..
..so..like when you run up against the Heavy Irony (Hurley) of your miserable situation that is called Life..let that Dark Humor be a guide,,a inspiration, a spark, a motivation to try something else..and if some crazy F@%*! in a blog or chatroom puts it all in Metaphorical terms..trust the sawyer in you( ladies!! behave!),,your instincts, to get the metaphor.
MEL
MEL- I think I lost you there.... ;-)
btw...Hurley calling R Nations a douche...was that an inside joke by a writer on Exec Producer Greg Nations?
MEL
TOL..Where?...Hurley has always been comedy..Irony..Humor is all about Irony,,and Lockes run in with Hurley,,the owner of the company that Lockke just got fired from..is hugely ironic with Locke blowing his top...and the Hurley helping him out anyway..a key moment of Surrealism..just loaded with dark humor, including a possible jab at Greg Nations.
Sawyer seems to have always been Instincts..thats why Krakatokeayoumitelikeit went for Sawyer first of the Losties..Instinct is of the way of thinking and perceiving ,its unpolluted primal state..that more easily allows for the Surreal to be realized.
of any help?
MEL
Yep... i must not trust my inner sawyer well... that's where I lost you, somewhere between that and your crazy metaphorical analysis of self in a blog!
I see where you are going--- till his final words to Flocke, I loved and hoped to see the so-called non-instinctual Sawyer resurface. I still hold a little hope that his instinct to "protect" and care about others (I think there was a lot of that in him, though he didn't like that in himself all the time).... will peek through. But, he may be beyond that... especially after all the whiskey!
(Ok, you be the surrealist, I'll be the hopeless romantic fool...though I do NOT hope for some cheesy ending... promise!)
TOL...How about the refered to.." LOST LUGGAGE"..??? I mean.. as far as metaphors go..wooowEEE!!...The LOST LUGGAGE turns out to be the knives that he never got to use...a big part of his LIE..The metaphor of that should start the shake out. I mean..we all refer to people who bring luggage with them..So Lost Luggage ...in that context..sure do come across as the...oh ...ZaGillion questions Fans have that ain't gonna be answered,,just like Locke never got used his knives..the questions have nothing to do with what is being presented..non sequitor...just like the knives..How they represent what John fantasized doing..but was told he couldn't and they were right,,..What a Freekin HOOT!! I tells ya gang..LOST Luggage..yea..its time to leave it behind!!..Let It Go!!
Let Rose and Helen push your buttons !!
Surrealy!!!
MEL
Say it isn't so! ;-)
Funny, I was thinking just this afternoon.... if jumping back into this blogging business for the last season wasn't going to set me up with questions i wouldn't have thought of otherwise and give me as you say... LOST luggage! ;-)
Perhaps you make a good point- Helen or Rose (are you venturing "acceptance")- love it as is, love the miracle you already have, flaws and all.... and walk down that aisle (um....isle?)!
I always thought that somewhere, Gregg Nations has a really forgiving cousin/brother/uncle named Randy.
TOL -- LOVE, true LOVE would always be, as you put it, "love as it is".
oops, meant "love it as is"
OB- often painful, eh? risky, at best.... sacrificial of what you want most? ( can you tell that my money is still on Sawyer...) Anyway....... on with the show....
(thinking also of how in this comparison Helen and Bernard also have a lot in common....)
OB- it reads well both ways, doesn't it?
Capcom -- thanks for the LOST foggy memories (by Grickle). io9 posted them on WED and @slashfilm tweeted today, too!
TOL, it was a typo but does read well both ways, the surreal bleeding it's way through the spaces between letters, and the bonds between molecules...
Oh my..who was it Plato? maybe Socrates..did like a 5000 word exploration of what Love is..he finally ended his diatribe with..Love is the perpetual desire of Beauty...Of course,,the sophists around him asked..What do you mean by Beauty.?..oh my....Then a mystic in Judea came along and redefined LOVE to even a higher degree..I mean..God so Loved Man that He gave them His Only Son...thats a Love most are still trying to grasp to this very day...
I can only suggest,, that not to confuse the effects,, the consequences,,the 2nd hand experience,,the failed expectations,,etc etc...with LOVE itself. one way to define,,if thats even possible,,is..Love is a Sphere of being,,You are either inside it..or outside it. Maybe,,Love as a state of mind...Its often said women are always in Love and Men ,,only when its time to be .
I do know that the Surrealists pretty much ended up saying..Everything With Love..They boldly put it this way...Where has the Male perception of Love got us? A major war every 30 years or so for the last 5000 years..and now with nukes..mankind simply can not think that way anymore.
The Hope that is in Creating the Future,,is made of Love.
I said that
MEL
i think Ben wanted to solve the fertility problem so that they could hide the island and no longer field candidates from abroad. they could use babies born on island instead.
i think it's looking like widmore is still the big bad out there. If ben is alive in the sideaways i bet widmore is as well.
tiger wood's speech got me thinking. He said he betrayed or abandoned his "core values". Dharma was trying to change the core values of the valanzetti equation. We now know that each number is a person. Perhaps getting the person(number) to change their core values is the key to it all. Sawyer is a perfect example of a less than perfect candidate. I also was thinking that if they did shift the polarity of the numbers from posative to negative or vice versa in the sideways, that it would be hard to see the core values of a person right in the middle change. A bad person might turn good like ben or ethan, but if you were in the grey you would stay in the grey if white becomes black and black becomes white
2c- re: "internal" candidates-- perhaps it may be a matter of "inheritance"- as we've been talking about family lines. Didn't the ARG early on have an "heir apparent"?
i agree about widmore being the "big" bad... maybe even more than most agree with.... (possibly smokey's/MIB off the island appearance). Its been interesting to theorize how Jack and Sawyer will ultimately line up with these two camps...
I love your thoughts about Sawyer--- and continue to hope that his core values HAVE changed from out for self con-artist, to the guy who may grumble, but always does the right thing. I see him coming back for those he's come to love, even through the pain of it... ala true love (not eros/romance... but as close as we humans can get to the agape kind)...
I also was thinking about positive and negative numbers in the VE equation--- and positive and negative interactions/responses the characters made to challenges. One value gives (+), the other takes (-).... if a known taker (sawyer) changes to be a giver... what do we have?
Hurley= giver in both realities, but had very negative experiences/responses in one, very positive in another...
The Kwons may BOTH be there--- they zero each other out in a give and take of +/-?
etc....etc...etc....
And I love your thoughts on gray.....but I somehow don't think its allowed to be a final choice... this seems to me to fit in with MEL's posts on change or death...
Ooo- a thought-Re Sayid's test. First Dogen blew "Jacob's" ash on him. Maybe he didn't pass because the ash did not protect him from the pain- and it would have if he had not been "claimed".
JT..thats a great observation...to further it,,suggests how the want of the status quo ,,protects us from the " pain" of change...Again..infection is actually Health...Blackness is actually " Illumination"..strange it is that Carlton uses that word in his recent twitter.
MEL
OK, so I have skimmed the 420 or so comments... What an episode! Here' my thoughts:
1. The ash. TOLD YOU SO. Illana clearly knows how the game is played.
2. Flocke - trapped since Jacob died. Clearly, this is a new phase of the game where everything is "held" until a decision is made. Hence MIB not being able to change, and Sayid being back in play. Had he died before Jacob, he'd have been a gonner. As it is, he's "holding". Not sure if he'll go when the Jacob inheritance is sorted out.
3. I'm a teacher. Ben in the show is a teacher. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
4. "It's an in-joke". Nice bit of meta humour there. Nice too, that MIB's office looks like the painting from the G1988 show a bit.
5. Blonde boy looks like a newer version of Jacob. Not sure though.
6. Sawyer is going to swerve on MIB. Play along for a while, then undermine him. Look for Sawyer to play the good little doggy for the next few episodes, I think.
I was thinking about the boy being a newer or younger version of jacob. What if it really was jacob in the cabin ,when he told locke "help me". I don't think it was smokey because there was an ash pile in the rocking chair. At that point locke was still a candidate, so it's not a stretch to think jacob would talk to him. I believe at that time the ash circle was not broken yet, as evidenced by the piece of the tapestry he left for illana, jacob did inhabit the cabin at some point. I think locke went back and broke the ash circle when he tried to find jacob's cabin a second time, but only the circle was there no cabin. Perhaps that is why flocke was so curious about what ben was up to at the cabin, he genuinly seemed like he wanted to know last season. He may have been trying to see how down with jacob, ben really was. the man in the rocking chairit may have been the old version of jacob to go along with the middle and the young version. It reminds me of the movie 2001 and when he went into the monolith and saw himself as a baby and an old man.
Trying to catch up - it's been a crazy week.
2costa - maybe if mib takes a canidate's form and becomes the new leader, jacob goes around like a white pillar of smoke.
Hmmm. Interesting thought.
MEL (taling about Kate) - thats why he ain't in no particular hurry with her and went after Sawyer first. and then later thats why Krakatokeayoumitelikeit went for Sawyer first of the Losties..Instinct is of the way of thinking and perceiving ,its unpolluted primal state
I think Smoky (please can we stick with one nickname - at least within a single post? - LOST is confusing enough as it is) went to Sawyer first for two reasons.
1. He was there and easily accessible
2. He was in a very vulnerable state. As any conman knows - a vulnerable person is an easy mark.
Lost it.... VERY interesting to spin MIB as a con man!
With Sawyer's definition of a long con...we'll have to keep our eyes out to see how this plays out! (Here's hoping his radar for it is just as sharp as his ability to pull it off!)
so smokey did the same thing he criticized jacob for doing, he went to sawyer when he was in vulnerable state.
the way smokey had to turn into flocke in order to use the machete to cut down Richard makes me think smokey can only act in defense or in judgment of someone while he is in smoke form. Yes he turned into a huge fist when stomping Eko, but that was while he was in judgment mode. Perhaps as protector of the outer wall of the temple smokey has to judge people as worthy or not to enter the temple or at least that's how he started out or he can fight back if attacked like when bram shot him in the temple.
to go with what i was saying about the six candidates off 815 being the second shot at the timeline at least. i think its no coincidence that that there are six other 815'ers on the wall that are not the core numbers of the valanzetti equation that we know in it's current form. assuming the last names are the people we think charlie,shannon,claire,gary troupe, nikki and ?(costa may be paulo),it seems too crazy that there are so many candidates on flight 815 with non-current valanzetti numbers. Unless the first time this played out those six and their numbers were the candidates and the valanzetti numbers were different then we have ever seen them. jacob probably took a shine to jack, sawyer,sayid, and co while seeing the littleton candidates in 2004 fail at becoming the new jacob or saving the world. So when the timeloop resets things, jacob touches different six people from 815 to see how that works out. So yes, i bet in the previous timeline we never saw before 1x1, jacob touched charlie, claire, shannon, gary, and nikki during their lives before 815 crashed, but in the timeline we have seen he didn't touch them.
another thing about that list of 815'ers that are not the current candidates is they all died weird deaths on the island except for claire and some have speculated that she also died momentaily. Gary troupe got sucked into the engine, Charlie drowned in the looking glass, Nikki and paulo died from the spiders(i.e. smokey), shannon died from walt inspired friendly fire. Now if course correction makes things basically play out the same in parralell timelines then i bet they died at simuliar times and ways in the previous iteration. that is probably why jacob had to start over with 6 different 815'ers.
i think when desmond was seeing charlie die over and over he was seeing several sideways realities. Desmonds specialness is tied to his ability to see through sideways realitys.We have seen almost everyones parentage, but never desmonds. I think that will be key to everything. Desmond may be so special because of his parents.
lostit
I agree MIB went to Sawyer because he was grieving and vulnerable.
I found it ironic that MIB told Sawyer he was sure he had met Jacob, probably when he was miserable and vulneraable then manipulated you.
Which is exactly what he's trying to do to Sawyer.
2costa
Interesting thought that Smokey's way of being a security system was to judge people before they could enter the temple.
Maybe the boy that frightened Flocke was his son from when he was mortal? Or Jacob's son? Or maybe Jacob and MIB are brothers and the boy was another brother who died when they were young (Maybe MIB blames Jacob for his death)?
I rewatched last night and a thought occurred to me. In the ATL, what if Cooper was a jerk because he was touched by Jacob and if that hadn't happened, he wouldn't have been involved with Sawyer's parents and he wouldn't have thrown Locke out the window.
OTOH, if MIB can touch people as well, maybe he was the one who tried to kill Locke early on (when his mother was hit by the car and again when Cooper threw him out the window) and Jacob was there trying to "course correct" those things to make sure Locke got to the island. Widmore said that it was important for Locke to be alive and on the island for the coming war. And it was Ben who killed Locke - maybe MIB appeared to him as somenone else and told him that he had to? Maybe MIB has been manipulating Ben for a longer time than we know.
..Well,,it seems to me that this episode was about results. What are the results from your current way of behavior, your current way of thinking and perceiving. If the way you deal with..the way you process,,the world around you and your interactions with it..constantly leads you to frustration and disappointment,,then maybe you might try a different way of dealing with it, processing the interactions with it..change. So Sawyer being vulnerable is exactly the point. All these Losties are vulnerable. They want change.They just don't know where to place the changes, They are Lost. So ChromeDomelookingforaHome offers the idea of choices you didn't even know you had..versus Dogen's,,You must stay in the Temple....well...I guess it does come to what degree of freedom one affords oneself. Just remember as Rose hinted..you only live once, and that is subject to only so much time.
Being results orientated,,rather than fantasies frustrated,,that change appears to have worked for John Locke. In a very simplistic way, the ladder experience was the change before our eyes. It started out as independent effort and ended successfully as a co-production effort..The two bonded. I didn't see a " con" in there. Afterall,,if ChromeDomelookingforaHome was to kill all of the Losties,,what a perfect moment to let Sawyer " die" and thus claim him...didn't happen. The "con" is being pulled by the Dogen and the Templiestas. They are the ones who lie. Again,,the idea that all of these Losties are vulnerable has to be perceived. The contest for the Losties with their decision to Start Over,,is being played out with results. Now..compare lies,infection, blackness, poison, kill them , must stay,,,with, you're free, chains off, choices you never knew you had, answers, the one you'd like to reproduce into the future because of the results,,seems an easy winner.
What is fascinating is that the Templiestas have this edifice,,structure,,all around them that protects them and within it they go about their daily business. Dogen even grows his trees and plants inside of the Temple. Yet..ChromeDomelookingforaHome simply traverses the Jungle without any structures or shelter. How weird and wonderful it would be..if MIB simply made all the animals and birds in the area..form a wall of sound,,a cacophony of hoots and chirps and screams and bellows..around the Temple striking fear in their hearts to the point of having to leave the Temple. The call of the Wild being more than they can resist. Sawyer, as Instincts,,is the closest to the Wild.
MEL
2c said so smokey did the same thing he criticized jacob for doing, he went to sawyer when he was in vulnerable state.
Y'know the phenomenon of... when we know we're wrong, we make someone out to be 'wronger" in order to justify or mask our own behavior? oooorrrr recruit someone to our side? I can see this happening with MIB. Perception is reality....
Someone earlier had the theory of the island breaking a character down, and either they choose to rebuild (ala MEL's change) or remain the same (die, ala MEL's status quo, if I understand her correctly). I agree too with MEL- that they're all in a vulnerable position. I was reminded a few weeks ago of Wynona Judd's song..."When you hit rock bottom, you got 2 ways to go....straight up.... or sideways...." I'm not a country girl, but it seems to fit.
Perhaps the 6 non VE people who are on the wall needed to be directly linked to them as external variables of sort...acting upon the equation to bring about change?
If we agree that we're onto something about characters being special b/c of who their parents are.... that means Penny too is special as Widmore's daughter... and we've yet to speculate what her role (other than Des's constant) might be.
I didn't see "bonding" down the ladder.... and if I did/could- I think for now, till proven otherwise, I can still see the long con in it. Gotta establish rapport and a "common goal" before you can use someone....
I'm surprised no one else has keyed onto the fact that ben linus being alive in the sideways strongly points to jughead not making the island sink. The candidate theory might also explain this. If in the sideways reality the candidates are different. Then jacob didn't touch them probably. So cooper never gets nasty with Locke because he is no longer a candidate, or as i said before the sideways reality is really an iteration of the timeline before the timeline we have seen for 5 seasons instead of a result of it.
i noticed a pattern with cave wall candidates. in the lost 1.0 timeline most of them that i can identify have a dead dad. We have long suspected locke's dad being dead was a prerequisite for being the leader of the others as well as ben.
pace dad was already dead
shannon dad died when jack chose to work on future wife
claire dad is christain and is dead
nikki unknown
troupe unknown
now look at the latest candidates
sawyer dad dead
jack dad dead
sayid unknown
jin dad dead(may point to which kwan is on the wall, since sun's dad is alive)
hurley's dad alive maybe exception that proves the rule, locke's dad didn't have to die til he ascended to leadership role
so maybe in the sideways the dad's are alive because of the lack of jacob's touch. Kates bio dad is now alive. Locke's dad is still alive. If ben is alive i assume his dad is alive since he killed him on the island in lost 1.0
perhaps the flashback we saw with ben and his dad on the island was a previous iteration where ben was still a candidate, that's why there was all the animosity between roger and ben. Last season roger seemed a lot nicer to ben in 1977 than in the flashback ben had of his dad when he was a kid. That would make sense if ben wasn't touched in that timeline. just like cooper is probably nicer to locke in the sideways because the island is no longer calling locke.
I'm of two minds on the issue of whether Sawyer's gone over to the dark side.
I can't remember which of you said it but I think Sawyer may be playing a long con here. He'll go along with this creature until he milks him for all the information he has to offer. Then he'll bring him down (or at least land a debilitating blow) from the inside.
Sawyer tends to think more clearly when his world is falling apart than most people - because his world is ALWAYS falling apart. He's always just lost someone he cares about (his parents, Cassidy, the daughter he never knew, Ana, Kate, Juliet. . . .) So, he isn't really going to be off his game here as much as the MIB thinks he will.
The MIB has slipped up - -he's playing Sawyer at his own game. And also, at a point when Sawyer has nothing much left to lose.
And it also occurred to me that Richard's little 'he wants to kill everyone you care about' thing may have sunk pretty far into Sawyer since he just lost someone he cares about.
What better way to protect the rest of his friends than to lead the MIB away from the island.
But I may be giving him way too much credit.
2 costa- interesting about dead Dad's- but Jin's dad dead? do we know who Jin's real dad is?
I like the way you started to spread the post out - it's hard to read them without some separation in the lists/ideas.
Lost 2010 said....And it also occurred to me that Richard's little 'he wants to kill everyone you care about' thing may have sunk pretty far into Sawyer since he just lost someone he cares about.
This makes me want to hear Richard's back-story more than ever, is it the ultimate tragedy of the story?....imo when you've got nothing left to loose big promises (of freedom, a better life, etc...) can lead to chains pretty quickly.
I don't think (hope) you give Sawyer too much credit.
Yes, I'm ready for Richard's story too. Which is wierd since I used to think that would just take time away from the other losties. Richard looked so freaked out and scared and I'm not sure we've seen him look that way before. What did the MIB do to make Richard THAT scared of him?
On the other hand, when you have nothing left to lose - there's nothing that can be threatened to force you into a decision you wouldn't otherwise make. I would imagine he is trying to put that distance around himself - 'They're not my friends.' Because if they're not my friends you can't hurt them to get to me.
I think he's pushing people away to protect them. Maybe.
TheOtherLisa said...
Lost it.... VERY interesting to spin MIB as a con man!
With Sawyer's definition of a long con...we'll have to keep our eyes out to see how this plays out! (Here's hoping his radar for it is just as sharp as his ability to pull it off!)
"It's all about the details, and the details are wrong."
jin dad dead(may point to which kwan is on the wall, since sun's dad is alive)
Did I miss something? I don't remember the fisherman dying.
2costa may be on to something though... the father/child relationship. Is it possible that BOTH father and child are candidates, one being claimed by Jacob, the other being claimed by MIB?
Lost 2010-Good point about not being forced to do something when you've got nothing left to loose so this could go either way.... because MIB seems to be offering "gain"... which is so subtly different than something to loose! (ex. grass is greener!) I like your idea of why he's saying "They're not my friends" to protect them ... I didn't even give him that much credit ;-) I just heard the bitter in it!
Hi Steve- I'm not sure what you mean by details?
I also think 2c's theories on lineage are pretty sharp! Along with all the problems with pregnancy on the island, there's gotta be something to it. But, I'm having a clueless moment though, you mention Des's parents... ??? I am not remembering what/who they are?
So on 2c's lead.... who do we know is a daughter/son of a DI or "other" thus being "second generation" Islander (on one side or another)
Penny- Daughter of Widmore and ?
**** which makes little Charlie 3rd generation...
Faraday- Son of Widmore and Eloise (Ellie)
Jack- Son of Christian (Unconfirmed) association with island) and mom we've not seen associated with the island
Claire-Daughter of Christian (Unconfirmed) association with island) and mom we've not seen associated with the island
*****Which makes Aaron possibly 3rd generation)
Miles- Second generation DI (birthplace unknown)
Charlotte- Second generation DI (birthplace unknown)
???? Thats all I can come up with at the moment...????
2C- the idea of this being the previous iteration leads to lots of possibilities and questions.
I like it because it makes the fl/ sideways more than just a "Wonderful Life" illustration, and it does not leave the island sunk at the end- which bothered me in that the island might represent faith.
So, if it is a time before- how does it work? Can both MIB and Jacob see back to the previous iterations? Or just Jacob - and that's why he is so calm about most things-he knows more about what is likely to be happening. I don't think he can see the next one though- and he still has to try to change the future iterations.
When does the loop start over? After the ancient times on the island perhaps?
For it to work, the island has to be resurrected in the next loop- so it seems that MIB cannot be completely successful in escaping in the f/sideways.
The f/sideways seems to show that the Losties mostly end up on 815 even without Jacob's touch. So maybe we have it backwards. Perhaps he did not choose to put them on the plane, perhaps he chose them because they WERE on the plane in the previous f/sideways, and his part was to make the plane crash on the island. They were a pool of candidates that were going to be available going over the island.
I think Sawyer ws more vulnerable than any of the others having just lost the love of his life.
And I'm kinda wondering if the "You can't kill him" rule applies to the candidates (And therefore Sawyer). He can't them directly (Though he did kill Eko - was he a canididate?). He has to convince someone else to do it for him or convince them to do it themselves (like Dave appearing to Hurley trying to convince him to jump off the cliff). Or maybe MIB needs Sawyer to do something else for him (maybe kill the others?) before he kills him (kinda like what Ben did with Locke - used him till he hade no further use for him, then killed him)
Or maybe MIB needs Sawyer to do something else for him (maybe kill the others?) before he kills him (kinda like what Ben did with Locke - used him till he hade no further use for him, then killed him)
Currently- that's where my hunch is. Of course, I recognize the possibility that it could be anything from the complete opposite to somewhere inbetween....
Hi Steve- I'm not sure what you mean by details?
It is a direct quote from Sawyer.
Here's a crazy theory. Jin and Sun are the leaders of the island together and are Adam and Eve in the cave.
Ever since I heard Jin's wedding vows "We will never be apart. Because being apart from you would be like the sky being apart from the earth."
I've thought that they may be more important than we think.
Steve
2costa may be refering to the fact that Jin's father told Sun he wasn't sure he was Jin's father.
TOL
Steve's quote is from the Long Con. It's what he tells Kate when the go into the jungle the "track" the others and find the piece of cloth.
We haven't met Des' parents yet. We know his father is dead because he told Widmore that when he went to ask for Penny's hand.
I've always had the feeling when we were shown Jacob touching people, that it wsan't necessarily in the time we assumed. That it was either in the past or future. That this wasn't the first time he'd touched them.
Women can conceive on the island. . .they just can't bear a child. The process kills them.
Just like the island gives each person a second chance. . .but frequently, the rebirth leads to their death.
Maybe the successful candidate is the person who can survive the rebirth and emerge from the other side.
It'll kill most of them.
And if you try to help them - it's like The Moth. You just make them weak and they die even sooner.
But for the one who emerges - ahhhh, the beautiful colors of that butterfly.
It interested me that Damon & Carlton don't consider the fl/sideways an alt reality-though I think everyone I discussed the topic with on LP would think so.
Seems like we defined AR as us seeing the same time period with similar events that play out differently.
Not sure what the writers are thinking- maybe that as long as events within a timeline don't change, then you just have two realities. Maybe they think an alt reality is when you take the first one and change it so it only exists in its altered state.
They made such a big deal about the integrity of the story in commentaries that it really was hard to believe they would jump off sideways like this. They sure gave the impression that having more than one storyline for a character was a cop out and made the events we were seeing less important, as they could always be corrected somewhere else.
I guess the iteration thing would be OK, as it puts one reality after another as though each one was an event, that within the iteration things don't change from what we have seen.
JT,
I think it was the term "alternate" that bothered them. That made it sound like one of the realities was less, er, real than the other one. They wanted to make it clear that they are both equally real and both equally important.
aIt seems like every little thing in my life relates to LOST in some way ahspe or form lately.
I'm watching Pirates of the Caribbean (the last one) when Bill explains to Elizabeth that whoever kills the captain of the Flying Dutchman must take his place forever.
Of course, I started thinking if that rule is one that would apply to LOST or not. I guess not, because Ben killed Jacob and he's not a remaining candidate (his name was crossed off wasn't it? Or was it not there? I forget). So he can't take Jacob's place.
Is it possible that the people Sayid assassinated for Ben were candidates?
i agree that the plane was always going to fly over the island. maybe in one iteration of the timeline jacob picked pace and co and that didn't work out so he picked the others next time around.
i think the island still has power underwater. The looking glass and hydra are probably still operational. I think it didn't crash in the sideways because there is no jacob's touch at play. Seems to me jacob likes to have options w candidates. Hawkings needed as many as possible on ajira to make it crash on island. jacob seems to always pick a few from every situation/era. So maybe the more jacob touch dancers on the plane the more likely it crashes.
perhaps in the sideways underwater island represents no jacob in the world, in order to become the new jacob in 2007 you have to do some time travel mojo to make sure the island isn't sunk.
im pretty sure water wouldn't disrupt the electromagnetic mojo of the island, im thinking more and more that the swan is on the underwater island, if not at least the orchid and definitely the donkey wheel.
the polar bear in the desert still makes me think dharma experimented on turning the wheel with smart bears. Or they were perhaps a contingency plan to move the island if it was in an arctic location and it was already cold in there. i think the sharks may have been a contingency to turn the wheel if the island was underwater. Makes hydra island make a lot more sense.
jin's dad is alive, but may not be bio dad. I'd say sun not time flashing points to jin being the candidate. I think kate will still be somehow a candidate perhaps the new number 4 to replace locke. Perhaps all the time flashers were not candidates but all the candidates we knew of were time flashers
faraday
charlotte
miles
jack
sawyer
locke
jin
hurley
all time skipping candidates
again ben may be the exception that makes the rule. Either he is not the linus candidate, he was already crossed off the wall in a former iteration of timeline, or he is no longer a candidate because he broke the rules. perhaps you can break "the rules" but there are consequences like losing your chance to be jacob. Perhaps widmore knew ben wouldn't hurt him because he knew ben wanted to be the new jacob as much as him. Widmore seemed to lose a lot of respect for jacob in the ep where he got banished. So widmore beleives in the cause but not the leader(jacob)
i think the island is outside of the alternate realities so. Somehow, so yes mib and jacob know of all the contingency realities, otherwise it would make no sense that the numbers and names of non valanzetti candidates were on the wall, unless the other numbers relate to the valanzetti numbers in some way we don't know atm.
perhaps sinking the island is mib's coup de gras of beating jacob once and for all and we will start to see the sinister implications of the sideways. The 2007 timeline is their last chance to avert that with some time travel mojo. theres nothing stopping anyone in 2007 from going over to the donkey wheel and changing things again.
im also curious to see who dies in the sideways first 90 or so days. Artz should die really soon, even charlie wouldn't be long for the world either if you die on the same day in every iteration. i think part of why the course corrections are so close is in case the two realities need to converge. Or "the rules" are some kind of time travel rules concerning the island and it's caretakers that keep changes in the timeline close enough to the original as to not create a problematic universe ending paradox. like the apparent rule of having no dad to be leader of the others may tie into the grandfather paradox of timetravel. In a sense you may need to be an patriarchal orphan to be "jacob"...
i think jacob doesn't necessarily know what is going to happen in iterations of the timeline that haven't happened yet, but he can have hunches from seeing things play out so many times. The free will thing of the island is why no one really knows whats going to happen in new iterations.
Steve and SG- I kinda figured @ the quote after a while, thanks for the confirmation.. my question is what did Steve mean by it in response to the idea? As in, the details of our thinking/convo were wrong? or Sawyer will see the long con because he'll see the details are all wrong?
We know very little about either of Jin's parents--- right? we know that his mother was a prostitute and the man he calls his father might not be. I remember thinking that perhaps Christian might be Jins father (may have gotten that idea here a long time ago). But now also have to think of how might have been posing as a prostitute to have an heir? (ala the biblical Tamar??)
So, if lineage is important- we perhaps need to know some stuff about Des's?
2c- interesting observations about the 2 underwater stations... perhaps the island is/has always been prepared for both realities.
Less than 24 hours to answers....or more q's?
lost2010-I think that is a very elegant idea of the candidate flying away new and beautiful.
TOL
I read Steve's comment as a quoted comfirmation of sorts, I guess. But of course Steve would have to be the one to explain his thought. :)
I've always been interested in Des' family ever since he told Widmore he had to take care of his brothers ever since his father.... in Flashes Before Your Eyes.
You know I just realized I was wrong Desmond didn't say his father died. Widmore interupted him before he finished telling him about his family. So he could be alive. Oops sorry about that. I really do want to know who they are and what happened. But I'm not sure we'll get alot of Desmond.
Without having to add,,what ifs,,maybes or plotlines not even in existence ,,its easy to understand the " sideways" of TPTB...Same event at same time,,as seen from the two " halves" of Mans existence,,From..or more accurately..Thru one set of eyes...the external world..( airplane reality) and the Internal world (the Island)..elegantly simple and easy. Why make it any more difficult than that,,after all,,this is the 6th season and time is running out. TPTB are making it easier,,not more difficult. ..imho.
Now..the internal world,, the Island..well, the beholder of such seems to be exaggerating and distorting the mundane External world...suggesting that " things " ain't quite right inside the noggin. That leads us to the question of...who has the right to call anybody insane? Whats going on , on the Island,,is an interpretation of reality of and by any ..book writer,,play writer,, poem writer,,heck...TV show writer...the stuff of creativity being displayed right in front of you..Insane?..ha!..the Links between the two " realities" are becoming clearer and clearer..References to other,,writers,,are even made to help with the " linkage"...Interesting that a Steinbeck reference was made ..on the Island,,and not made in JohnLockes real world..Think about the implications of that. What is insane and what is real indeed. The Island reality comes cross more sane than the comically insane world of John's external world.
So..again,,it seems to me that the competition is for the Unified Whole Individual that we are seeing the halves,,the two realities thru. Jacob and his enforcers and followers will clearly demonstrate tha tthey don't really want a Unified Whole Individual..They can only thrive in a conflicted, splintered , fragmented turmoil...as Dogen put it..doing things they don't want to...and as Jacob agreed with MIB on the beach..they come, they conflict, they fight, they destroy...Fascinating it is,,that as a LOST fan..Part of me doesn't want it to end either. But a more realistic part..the Surrealist of me..knows it has to end, the cycles have to stop..for the real beauty to be seen and understood.
MEL
i guess alex could have been a the linus wall candidate, perhaps why ben thought widmore broke the rules. That's why ben asked keamy if widmore ordered him to do that. Pretty simuliar loophole as smokey used with ben and jacob. Also why ben was so confident keamy wouldn't kill her. Ben misunderstanding that it's not possible to break the rules(see mike trying to die) and the reality that you can break the rules. If your willing to face the consequences...
Steve and SG- I kinda figured @ the quote after a while, thanks for the confirmation.. my question is what did Steve mean by it in response to the idea? As in, the details of our thinking/convo were wrong? or Sawyer will see the long con because he'll see the details are all wrong?
I was merely pointing out that it's rather unlikely Sawyer doesn't realize what MIB is attempting to do. Especially after his little Of Mice and Men conversation. He not only can con somebody exceedingly well, but he can spot the con just as well.
OK OK OK....
Predictions: It's a neat narrative circle that to atone for his sins, Ben Linus has to stay on the island he loves, but alone.
It was me saying Sawyer was playing the long con - this will play out.
All candidates must be brought to the island. They can't be born there as it screws up Jacob's numbers. I expect it to be his fault that this happens.
All the candidates will be made to pick a side.
i think it's curious and interesting that, if the chopper would have had enough gas on the day ben moved the island, 5 out of 6 of the valanzetti candidates would have left the island. Leaving locke as the only current candidate left on the island. This may be tied to richard thinking locke was a shoe in to be the true candidate, because of mib's manipulation through the time flashes. I think widmore was also fooled by mib. Widmore's amazement that locke had not aged in 50 years since he saw him on the island showed that.
i just wonder how long u can delay a course correction. for example charlie lived a couple days longer than if desmond would have let him die the first couple times. Alex lived 16 years longer then she should have if we believe jacob really ordered widmore to kill her as a baby.
this makes me think that either miles died much earlier in a former iteration of the time line and that's why he is crossed off the wall. He just happened to live longer in subsequent iterations. It's conceivable that miles died as a baby in one of the previous timelines, if faraday never got them to evacuate the island. Maybe why miles can commune with the dead.
i wonder if all we are seeing on the island in 2007 should have happened in 2004, but ben letting so many of the candidates leave the island in 2004 delayed everything for 3 years. Perhaps this let the others get more prepared for coming war.
OK- if the f/sideways is a previous play of the "game"- a previous iteration- then I can see the point of it. It explains by example- showing us the concept of the events playing out again and again- with changes.
It also may show us the state of events just previous to our "go"-it is being pointed out how things have changed from then to our island time- and we can maybe see why the players moved as they did.
It is a case of show and don't tell- a much more interesting way to get the facts of the story.
Way to go Zort; LFL TLC leader this week.
Just some more of my silly ideas thinking sideways...this time with Genies and Dynamation...
Lucky Number 7
Congrats zort!
I came back up a few places after dropping like a rock last week. lol
Congrats, Zort! I continue to languish in the bottom of our group!
Happy Lost Eve!
NEW PODCAST!!!! NEW POST!!!!
2c said i guess alex could have been a the linus wall candidate, perhaps why ben thought widmore broke the rules.
If the "raising" is the issue (ala Claire's Aaron)--- sure, why not? And, yeah... I see the "loophole" with Keamy.
Hi Steve- thanks for the clarification... so you're figuring Sawyer would have called MIB out by now if he thought it was a con? So you see Sawyer really buying in? I'm hoping Ben has the right idea that Sawyer is playing along and is conning the conman, if in fact MIB is conning.
What is LFL TLC? If its an inside thing... feel free not to answer.
Congrats Zort!!
LFL is Lost Fantasy League over on Darkufo - some of us signed up way back in the spring or summer and it tracks it by site.
But if it's an iteration - we still don't know if it's the iteration before the one we're watching on the island - or the iteration after right?
It could either be the one that goes horribly wrong that the island timeline is trying to fix.
Or it could be the one that comes right because of what our losties do in the island timeline.
Or do I have it all scrambled up?
for these people that think christain is always mib,
in the missing pieces christain appears to vincent and tells him to wake up jack, that had to be the real christain. Since nobody is watching why take christain's form
christan appeared to jack off island when he was 06. i dont think smokey is capable of that. ghost charlie warned hurley that christain was gonna visit jack, so i cant see that being mib
ghost christain appeared to mike on the freighter and mib can't just appear as an apparition.
christian appeared to sun and frank while mib was on hydra island, there's really no reason mib would identify himself as christain to sun and frank when they have no idea who christian is.
i wonder if illanna is right and mib has only been locke lately and wasn't even ghost alex. The irony is ghost alex may have been working for jacob and jacob wanted ben to kill him as we have suspected..
or it could be the original timeline...
i dont think the island being wet takes it out of play in the sideways
i'm curious to why when we see smokeyvision, why you hear a sound and suddenly he is in a drastically differnt spot on island, at first it seemed like editing, but the distinctive sound accompanies smokeys flash like he is teleporting for part of the way.
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