In tonight's episode, Locke seeks help to support his cause.
Locke... or Flocke?
Carlton Cuse says, "Don't miss tonight's episode. A number of things are illuminated."
We'll believe it when we see it!
(Thanks, maven, for the quote from Twitter!)
Tuesday, February 16, 2010
The Substitute - Season 6, Episode 3
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Here is the updated reading list for the 
480 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 480 Newer› Newest»Black Swan- so Richard is frightened because he's gonna start getting wrinkles like the rest of us? haha;)
Maven should be here soon. I'll stick around until then, but I think I'm going to have to sleep on this one and watch again before having much to say.
Hi, to those still up! My mind is reeling....not solid answers, but enough to give a great foundation to what the heck is happening. I love Lost2010's idea quoted above by Scoutpost! The sideways flash is their lives if Jacob had never touched them...awesome thinking!
Got to watch it again...and again...and again.
It seems the MIB might have been lured to the island himself by Jacob and was part of Jacob's game of progress. Flocke said he was a man and had feelings like a man and one of those feelings was betrayal. Jacob betrayed him somehow and made him who he is at the moment. We know Locke's # was 4, but what was the MIB's #?
MIB says the island never needed protection...it's just an island. But Jacob is playing this giant game of chess, manipulating all the pieces...luring them to the island...pushing them to do things to get to the island.
Hi scoutpost! long time no see.. LOL!
I don't think it's Harper in the teacher's lounge. I did at first.
I really like lost2010's idea that the sideways timeline is showing life for the losties without Jacob's touch. And like Darlton said, they are the same people, but there are differences.
Yeah, as always..who is the good guy and who is the bad guy- is completely muddled at this point.
I need to watch again re: Locke and his dad. That is interesting to think Locke and his dad might be in good standing, but then how did Locke get paralyzed?
Hi, Black Swan! I have to go take a look at the screen caps of that cave! That thing is going to be as scrutinized as the Blast Door Map!
oh no doubt!
Sawyer is on the path to darkness now? Could be a double meaning of him saying, "Hell yes." Could also be interpreted as "Hell. Yes." He's saying yes to Hell.
Hi Maven! Great thinking there about Jacob also fooling MIB. How the heck are we going to find out MIB's last name? LOL!
ROFL, scoutpost.. yep, I'm thinking Richard is worried about his wrinkles or worse. I've always had a vision that once this is all over, we'll see Richard turn to dust because he shouldn't even be alive at this point.
I'm not so sure the MIB is the bad guy now. I feel he was a pawn in Jacob's game, manipulated to the island. He failed somehow as a candidate and was betrayed by Jacob who made him what he is now. He is stuck on the island and just wants to go home.
Ok how many of you are scrutinizing the screen caps of the wall secretly hoping to find your name up there? Come on, you can admit it, you know you are....;)
"Goodspeed" is up there. But I can't see what number is with it.
I need younger eyes to read all those scratchings! LOL Someone out there will list everything eventually!
Jones, O'Toole, Mattingly, Reynolds...
I haven't thought of MIB as the 'bad' guy for awhile now. I think they really brought up the issues last week with what I thought were themes of 'who do you trust' and 'mistaken impressions'
Let's not forget who the lying manipulators are here.. 'The Others' and Jacob is (was) the head guy of the Others.
With that said, you can look at things as good and evil, or you can just look at it as just different choices and your perspective defines good and evil.
So, Littleton is on the cave walls, but we don't know if it's Claire or Aaron and as far as we know, Claire wasn't touched by Jacob. So, this might support the sideways timeline being life without Jacob's touch because Claire's situation seemed more the same than Kate's. Kate was still running from the law, but this time she says she didn't do it. Claire still comes to LA looking for the prospective parents for Aaron, but we don't know that anything changed for her as far as her mother being in a coma or not, etc. We can assume that Thomas still walked out on her.
Scoutpost -- where do you see Goodspeed, is it close to any of our LOSTies names?
Goodspeed is two lines above Reyes
http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/8e3ee399268b5d00932d6a0c62d256aa
did anyone else think that the kid that Locke talked to when looking for the teachers lounge was supposed to be Walt? At least his version of Walt in this situation?
I had the feeling that Smokey can't change his appearance any more because the body of the one he was using was found (if you like)? I can't think back very well at the moment, but of all the people we have suspected of being Smokey, all of their bodies have disappeared. However, now they have Locke's body, and it's burried, so for some reason this means he cannot change. Which begs the question, was he ever Claire, and what does that mean for the Claire we saw last week.
I couldn't help thinking of pheonixes when we saw Jacob's ashes, and then the boy appears in the next scene.
The whole "can't kill him", is that can't as in "not possible" or can't as in "it's against the rules".
I had more thoughts but they've run off on me
As Alice is off school I took the morning off work to watch it. All I can say is OMG! OMG! OMG! I LOVED that ep! I'm still reeling...
Have to go into the office now but back later to read through all of your thoughts.
Morning LoCos!
A few questions -- is Ilana just wrong about Flocke being stuck as Locke since we saw Smokey take Alex's form or was that something else (again)? Or does Jacob's death lock him in since he changed to Alex before Jacob's death? And why doesn't Ben ask?
Can we assume that Jacob actually visited Sayid and Hurley more than once since the visits we saw were post-Island? Or did he only need them to get to the Island in 2007, not 2004? After all Sayid was supposed to fly out the day before, but pushed the flight himself to bury his friend, and as everyone has said for years it seemed Hurley was destined to miss, not make, the flight.
Sayid's Girl - good point about October.
More parallels between the Swan/Hatch and cave- "Locke" helps someone down a ladder to it-which breaks. The one who inhabits the cave/Hatch is looking for a replacement. There are hand drawn markings on the wall. There is a password for those in the know- snowman/statue. MIB and Jacob seem like Kelvin and Des in a way- MIB has to stay on the island because Jacob wants him to, and so he kills Jacob. Des is in the same situation and does the same thing, but not intentionally.
Morning all,
Great episode.
Carol - i agree on the Walt sightings. i keep waiting for him to show up since its always been said he is special somehow.
Hugo Suave- LOL he is definately oozing confidence.
Terry o quinn is just an exceptional actor. watching him play both roles is just awesome.
I am worried about Sawyer, i think as a conman hes the best to deal with MIB,
Are we suppose to believe that in the X verse that ben and ethan were never on the island?
Great ep! They packed about 2 hours worth of goodness into those 42ish minutes! From a production point-of-view, I thought the direction was much better this week than last. Including that wonderful Smokey POV camera work. Great stuntwork with Sawyer & Flocke as well. Looks like I get next week's ep 2 hours early as well.
Names found on the cave wall so far:
Jones, Mattingly, and Cunningham - Army soldiers the Others later pretended to be and
(Claire / Aaron) Littleton, (Charlotte) Lewis, (Gary) Troup, Bargas, Aguila, O’Toole, Lacombe, Domingo, Grant, Goodspeed, Reynolds, Burke, Almeida, Costa, Faraday, Straume, Pace, and Rutherford
Straume being crossed out and Littleton too seems to indicate they didn't get the job, not that they died. I guess Goodspeed could be Horace, Amy or Ethan too.
Another thing if Des and MIB are similar- Des became "special" after the Hatch implosion. Flocke says he used to be a man (MIB?)-but it looks like he was turned into Smokey. Smokey's pretty special too!
Memphish- good point about Flocke being able to turn into Alex. Smokey was right there- seems like that must have been Flocke. So Jacob's death does seem like the factor fixing Flocke as Flocke.
Hi Chris
Glad you were able to watch it a little earllier. Pretty interesting huh.
I wonder if Jacob has always been Jacob or is he stuck in someone's body too?
I don't think Jacob's looking for a replacement. It seems he's bee bringing people to the island before MIB said anything about a loophole. What was the whole speech about still trying to prove me wrong about if all he's looking for is a replacement?
I've never played backgammon but isn't it who ever gets their pieces offf the board first wins? I watched a video on how to play but don't remember the rules that we'll.
If Jacob is looking for a replacement maybe MIB has been breaking the rules and killing them.
I think the boy is Jacob. It's possible it's Aaron but I think it's Jacob. Like I said last night MIB taking the white rock off the scale represents things are no longer balanced. I'm still not sure who is good and who is bad or if there is even such a thing.
memphish
Claire has been claimed, if Littleton doesn't mean Aaron. Miles seems to have the same ability as MIB to know the last thoughts of a dying person. Although MIB seems to know all of Locke's thoughts.
I prefer the idea that neither side is per se good or bad, after all when you play backgammon or chess or any other game no one says "I'll be the bad guy" you're just a side and you feel justified doing what it takes to win. However, Damon and Carlton in that first video podcast of the season kept going on about two sides being good and evil which seems to indicate they've taken a moral position with respect to the sides.
I think we have plenty of evidence that both sides are "bad." We've seen Smokey seemingly arbitrarily kill the pilot and one of the French team and seemingly not arbitrarily kill others such as Eko and Bram's people. But how good can a guy be who makes sure you crash on an Island full of people who want to manipulate if not outright kill you all while refusing to tell you anything about the bigger picture.
True about Claire Sayid's Girl. If only I knew what that meant. :-)
Memphish
I know what exactly is claimed? I don't think it means being physically claimed.
I'm going to listen to some podcasts. Catch back up later.
1. was flocke lying when he said the numbers were just because jacob was into numbers, if not did jacob guide the whole dharma thing.
2. do the candidate names refer to specific people or family lines, sheppard could be christain or jack, you would think first names would be important
3. Are richard and ben lying to flocke about not knowing about candidates and such. Why would young zack know about the rules but not richard and ben.
4. is there a candidate and position for each number, like temple master and leader of others or just one canidate to replace jacob?
5. was the jacob we saw actually jacob or jacob inhabiting the last canidate? does jacob take over thier body like flocke or do they get to be the new jacob all by themselves?
6. is jacob's death the reason flocke is stuck in that form?
7.is flocke not able to change forms in front of witnesses?
8. did sideways locke still get thrown out the window by his dad and just covering?
9. was locke always engaged to helen in the old timeline?
10. did rose always know hurley was her boss?
11. how did ben survive the island sinking, perhaps jughead didn't sink the island afterall, because ben should have been in the temple at the time.
12. illana knows the rules so did she know ben was lying about smokey killing jacob?
13. did they mean flocke was going to kill sawyer by putting him in harms way or can he kill if he is attacked?
14. why did ben engineer so many candidates to leave the island on the 06 chopper?
15. why didn't sayid and hurley become candidates until after they were the 06?
16. why is flocke seeing visions
?
17. is part of the real locke's essence inside flocke? part of the package?
18. is the scale only out of balance while there is no "jacob"?
19. can flocke really want to leave the island with sawyer?
20. was the ash all the jacob's that have come previously?
I have a heck of a time keeping up with the comments ! But I'm here again and trying :-)
1.did the ajira plane work because so many candidates were on it?
2. does the "new jacob" get to go back in time and tweak things in his own way?
3. did jacob want to die to clear way for candidate?
4. did widmore think he was a candidate, why else would he refer to it as his island?
5 are the candidates the same in the sideways reality? does it matter with a sunken island?
6. why isn't kate a candidate if she was touched by jacob?
are candidates the only ones that time jump when the island moves? are the others free to kill non-candidates? are ben and widmore both candidates and that why they can't kill each other?
I'll tackle some of 2Costa's 26 questions.
1. I assume Jacob did have something to do with Dharma finding the Island since he's the one who brings people there as said in the opening scene of the S5 finale.
2. Unsure about the family thing, but use of last names only was what the Others did too for a long time, especially in S2 and S3 when referring to the 815ers. I think it's more business like than personal.
3. I don't think that was Zack in the woods who knew the rules.
5. Good question about Jacob inhabiting a body. Beats me.
7. Flocke changed into Smokey in front of Ben and Bram in the foot. And apparently he was Smokey while surveying the Island last night too. I'm not sure a witness or non-witness matters.
9. Locke was never engaged to Helen in the S1-S5 timeline. He asked and she said no due to his obsession with Cooper.
10. In the S1-S5 timeline Rose did not live in LA or work for Hurley.
17. Does Flocke say don't tell me what I can't do because of the Locke in him or vice versa. Chicken or egg?
That's all I've got for now.
Kate does not represent one of the familiar numbers (Locke = 4, Reyes = 8, Ford = 15, Jarrah = 16, Shephard = 23, and Kwon = 42). We were looking for Austen and 108 but found neither. What does this mean for Kate? Obviously Jacob still visited and touched her, but she doesn’t represent any of those famous 6 numbers we’re used to hearing.
Members of the US Army team that arrived on the island in 1954 were well represented on the cave walls (Jones, Mattingly, and Cunningham).
Other names (some familiar, other not so much) found on the cave walls: (Claire / Aaron) Littleton, (Charlotte) Lewis, (Gary) Troup, Bargas, Aguila, O’Toole, Lacombe, Domingo, Grant, Goodspeed, Reynolds, Burke, Almeida, Costa, Faraday, Straume (why is he crossed out if he’s not dead?), Pace, and Rutherford. We’re sure there are more that will surface
this is from darkufo
yes i am on the wall, costa
i think it's interesting horace was a candidate
why is straume crossed out?
charlie was also a candidate?
why are some of the numbers different i saw 20 on there?
gary troupe was a candidate?
julliette burke was a candidate?
faraday was a candidate?
shannon was a candidate?
what was mike and walt's last name?
smokey ducked around the corner in the foot, he has never changed before someone's eyes, if so why not change into the smoke when chasing blondie?
walt lloyd
micheal dawson
the problem with the last names is for instance there were 2 littleton's on the island at once
Got any answers 2costa?- lol!
Thinking overall- I am wondering now if maintaining the island/pushing the button represents faith- then maybe the island sinking represents the loss of faith. If so, I wouldn't find the f sideways as a very satisfying last go round in a series of iterations.
Another idea from earlier discussions I had was that an AR would be like "It's a Wonderful Life"- showing the effect of something never happening. Maybe the f /sideways could be the life of Jacob never touching the Losties, as you say lost21. It could show that the Losties needed to go through the pain that they have to get to a better resolution.
One that still includes faith in a larger meaning.
Good morning everyone. Nice to read the comments posted this morning. Anyone else have thoughts of LOST while sleeping last night?
Just Thinking, nice correlation between Jacob/Man In Black and Kelvin/Desmond. "It's a two man job." Would that mean someone would have to replace Man In Black? Is Sawyer unknowingly becoming that candidate so Man In Black can leave? (Probably not, just thinking out loud on the theory.)
I posted a stream of consciousness recap, late last night. If your interested in reading, here it is. http://ramhatter.blogspot.com/2010/02/lost-6x04-thoughts.html
Amy said on previous page: "Jacob is not stupid enough to leave the island to Kate." LOL, I got a good laugh out of that. Unless she turns into Mother Teresa before the end, nothing should be left for Kate to control! X-D At this point Jack might be put on that "don't " list as well, heheh.
I like the idea that someone mentioned about Kate maybe not being a candidate because she didn't seem to turn from crime after Jacob told her to.
Great thoughts and questions everyone! Really meaty episode last night.
i'm thinking candidates can go either way to jacob or smokey. locke might already be mib's replacement.
Oceanic
Alive
8 – Reyes
15 – Ford
16 – Jarrah
23 – Shepard
42 – Kwon (Jin or Sun? Both?)
313 – Littleton (Claire? Aaron?)
Dead 815'ers
195 – Pace
4 – Locke
Others
10 – Mattingley
317 – Cunningham
117 – Linus (Roger? Emily? Ben?)
55 ? – Burke
Dharma
??? – Goodspeed (Horace? Olivia? Ethan?)
134 ? – Chang pierre
French Team
? – Lacombe
Freighter
Lewis
Faraday
171 ? – Straume
US Army
233 – Jones
Undetermined
222 – O’Toole
291 – Domingo
346 – Grant
175- Costa
Partial
33 – XW?
20 – Rouf… or RousseaU
62 – …?
90 – Tr(oup?)
…? – …ersen
285 – Jen…
49 – …chan
30 – …la
195 – …?
?? – Reyno(lds?)
27? – …?
1? – Sullivan
…? – …zki
either ghost alex wasn't mib/smokey or smokey wasn't stuck as locke until after jacob died
was richard pretending to not see the boy? they seemed to be working together later
was that kid an other just messing with flocke's head or a young jacob? someone from mib's past?
would jacob be bulletproof like flocke and only be killed by the special blade?
was jacob from the black rock to the present the original jacob or the last successful candidate that jacob inhabited? there were way more ashes in the pit then just one dude, and everyone already had ashes before jacob died. So i think jacob's body was some candidate that ruled from the black rock until the present. that's is probably how he had a real body. the cycle of jacob as differnt canidates probably replenishes the ashes. On the other hand when Ben killed jacob it did seem like this is the first time that jacob had been killed so who knows.
i like the relative perspective of mib that there is nothing for jacob to protect the island from.
i forgot about this, but i think claire may not be influenced by smokey, rather the chip in her head may be guiding her or was when she wandered off. If horace was a candidate and the 815'ers numbers were printed on the blast door it reasons that jacob was way more in cahoots with dharma then we have been shown. The chip in her head is courtesy of ben, so maybe another example of jacob copting technology? i think this weeks episode makes me think Ben may be way more in the know in 2007 then any of us know? i think he may have been acting when he killed jacob and afterward. The way ben jumped out right after mib killed bram seems to show he knows smokey can't hurt him.
i also think ben know's mib can't kill richard, so when he sent him into the foot it wasn't as nefarious as it seemed. The way richard met ben right before he moved the island and gave him a wink makes me think ben and richard are still working together, this is just a variation on the time richard had sawyer kill cooper seemingly behind ben back. I think that was all fake too. the wink at the orchid showed us that
i think it's in ben and richards benefit to make flocke think he has the advantage over them at the moment. Ben insisted on julliettte coming and staying on the island and that has only played into smokey's hand. As did richard's little classified folder moment with sawyer
Lot of talk about why the numbers are linked with the male losties on the wall of the cave. Maybe candidate for leader isn't the full truth, could be candidate for a body to claim. That could explain why they are male.
Could Jacob have picked Locke (remember Locke saw a white light instead of black smoke), but MIB claimed him for his own?
The valenzetti equation was about manipulating the numbers to save humanity and MIB told Sawyer that his choices in life and why he was on the island was Jacob manipulating his life.
So who are the other people on the cave wall? Are they just pawns to manipulate the "core" numbers?
Is that why Kate was touched by Jacob? Wishy-washy Kate battling free will to choose one man, Jacob influencing her to choose the other?
I bet some of us had strange dreams last night! LOL Gotta run out for a meeting and then babysitting later...still running through ideas in my head and totally enjoying everyone's take on what we saw last night. That cave list makes for great conversation! Catch you all later!
omgosh that was great...definitely one to watch multiple times!
random thoughts...
Mattingly's number on the Yankees was 23...
If Jacob never touched them...good idea. Very likely, imho.
Agreed that "you can't kill him" meant Flocke could not kill Sawyer. I think it's that they can't kill each other or candidates. MIB wanted to kill Jacob, but couldn't kill him directly. He had to con Ben into doing it for him, presumably because Ben wasn't a candidate. I think Ben must have been told (or assumed?) that Alex was a candidate since she was a Rousseau. That may be what his "you broke the rules" to Widmore was about.
Also agreed that Flocke can't leave unless his counterpart leaves with him, and Jacob never wanted to leave so MIB had to stay too...through many incarnations.
Death has no sting to it if you know you'll reincarnate/resurrect. And if you look at those around you as dead already, then it doesn't matter if you kill them or not. The Island protects those who It wants/needs, so shoot first and let the Island sort them out later.
Does this mean that all who died on the Island were not candidates?
Maybe Jacob is Valenzetti. He has a thing for numbers. :)
I thought Zack could be a possibility for the boy. We didn't get s good look at him at the temple. But that wouldn't explain why MIB chased him
Either the boy was gone when Richard turned to look or the boy didn't want Richard to see him. Or Richard really didn't see him. But Sawyer seen the boy. Did the boy want to see him or is Sawyer special?
ben is definitely a candidate, but his number being different then the core valanzetti equation that we know probably shows he was a candidate in a different iteration of the timline where the core values were different and represented by different people. Perhaps ben didn't break the rules with keeping alex. Perhaps directly killing locke is why he thought he would be judged and broke the rules. Ben didn't break the rules until widmore killed alex. perhaps Ben knew "linus" as a candidate and adopted alex to keep her safe, like you can not kill anyone who might be a candidate. Like bram and illanna didnt know if frank was a candidate or not? Littleton on the wall makes it so you can't kill claire or aaron.
i did notice that most of the names like sayid were put in high traffic areas of the wall, but ford and shepard were on way more virgin territory of the cave wall.
seems like ben knocks off candidates as often as possible, goodspeed(horace or ethan), locke, shannon indirectly, maybe to better his chances.
i will point out that (175 Costa)
is still a candidate :) here is the pic
http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/wp-content/gallery/6x04/11.jpg
come to think of it we don't know what numbers hugo won the lottery with in the sideways or if the core numbers have changed. Perhaps you get crossed off the wall when the timeline changes and your core value is no longer in the valanzetti equation. I wonder what the numbers are in the sideways? I think the candidates may have changed in the sideways and thats why they didn't crash or the island being underwater renders it moot...
I was wondering when they would bring the abstract , Love, into season 6. Well I got an answer last night.Peg Bundy is Love……The irony in last nights show was applied so beautifully. It was there in just about every scene. Slapstick almost ..to some serious thought.:..I mean..yea..sooner or later the world around you is going to let you down..is going to frustrate you, is going to drive you mad. Our own motivations and needs don’t necessarily help either. Irony ..shoot..a man in a wheel chair as a gym teacher…a young teenager telling a old man what to do..the calm cool Richard..in complete disarray and panic.The play of opposites was relentless in last nites episode…and as we saw..Rising above the opposites..gets you…teaching the human reproductive system to a bunch of early teens…Now that was funny….In any case..John a s teacher seemed his talent….a play on..if ya can’t do it, teach it.?
But one play wasn’t so much of opposites. I asked a question earlier yesterday about Smokie ever having a face to face with Sawyer. I think we saw why not. Sawyer wouldn’t have been intimidated, as he certainly wasn’t last nite…All along I’ve seen sawye r as Animal Instincts, or Instincts. And Smokie as Conscience..So MIB Locke as Controlling Smokie now..knows that Instincts…are very valuable and important to be have as a partner..if one wants to get it together..become whole,,Unify…If jack, logic and reason always gets you illogical results..or failure..then what else is there? Instincts,, Intuition,,more primal basic , honest,,way of thinking and seeing.
So, Change has a willing partner now..change has answers..Its getting pretty clear,,that the Whole,, the Unified is what is being battled for. But hold a second..if you poison Sayid..Truth…then Unified or Whole..isn’t..not..nada. so Dogen figured to take the place of sayid?..him and his Japanese??? And illana is rushing Sun and Frank off to the Temple..I suspect more weirdest Funerals ever…Some major conflict coming up..Will be interesting and important…that the characters trust and follow their…instincts.
BTW..from the Europeans when you get around to this episode..Ben Linus as a European History teacher….????
No, lapidus or illana on the cave ceiling..oh my..what up with that?
So, realizing we have a choice to rise above our conflicted state is being stressed as we progress. In season 6.. Rose makes its clear of the consequences of continued insistence of that which frustrates.. MIB Locke gives the answer. The 3rd option. Find home. And Peggy Bundy..makes it clear ..Love, the heart,,is where the home is. God bless her heart.
BTW…by any chance..is the Locke/Helen house…mite that be Ryan’s house? Any one want to ask while I’m at work..sneeking around my Randy Nations with this post?
Great show last nite and look forward to watching it again..
MEL
On a totally new note, how do I get me one of those neat coffee trays for my bathtub that John Locke has?
Doing a re-watch now of The Substitute. Smokey vision is awesome. The CGI of seeing smokey in the window reflection is actually well done.
on two separate occasions smokey has broken up into 3 separate clouds of smoke(example:at the sonic fence). Maybe this could explain how christain and smokey sounds were over at the barracks with sun and lapidus while flocke was on hydra island with ben. I think it's significant that smokey is different sizes at different times. Perhaps analogous to the changing size of jacob's ash pit
i also think ben was capable of hurting flocke. Why else would alex tell ben not to harm a hair on john locke's head. Ben was already planning to kill locke again before that.
blond kid was definitely not zack, either it was young jacob, young sawyer(reverse of taller apparition walt, bloody arms were from finding parents), older aaron(same as taller walt), or someone from mib's back story
How could it be any body else than young Jacob?? How is it that is even a question?...I mean..??? who else would be telling MIB what the rules are??????????????????????????
Heres one..Young jacob as the teenage Lost Fan.. hey..you can't kill us..you know what the rules are...LOST is onloading the heavy answers..forcing viewers to think out of the box ..even when given the Answers...the answers are in the 3rd option..no longer in the polarized black white "or" realm..So theres jacob hanging on to the last realm of the scoundrel..you can't kill us..you need us..the Rules!! I guess what I'm saying is that Templiestas need to grow up and start buying Fords, start paying for their Blackberry bills,,which of course will have them on a new prescription drug soon enough..Then LOST can pay attention to them..But for rite now..its getting heavy in an unabashed way..I'm liking it in its " in your face' style. " he's gettin Ripe!"
MEL
OT woo hoo!! My friend who was working on my computer just called, she was able to get it working again and recover all of my files!! Going to go get t
right now. :)
Awesome episode. Haven't had time to go through all the comments yet, but I put my thoughts up in my weekly TV Verdict recap/review:
http://www.tvverdict.com/2010/02/17/lost-6-4-the-substitute/
Take a look and let me know just how wrong I am!
So Ben is a teacher in timeline B. And like Jean-Luc Picard he likes Earl Gray. Or he likes Locke for liking that flavor of tea. Ben teaches European History, I like that, being european and all. But what does it mean? Did his mother never die giving borth to him, and his father never spiralled down that road of drunk and violence, and they never met the Goodspeeds and went to the Island?
Matthew Fox said about season six that about a third of the way through the season both time lines will be "solidified into one time" and there will be one linear time throughout the story on the island with no more flashbacks. With the speed timeline Lost B evolves I start to wonder if that will really happen. We see a lot of crossings in B, now that John met Hurley, and even Rose. I wonder if the flashsideways show us the happy ending that will be the product of everything that will happen from now on till may 23 in Lost Prime. Time moves slow in Lost B, John has a new job and will not call Jack anytime soon, Claire will have Aaron. Looks not like collapsing timelines to me.
Amy Lynn, if you find that tray let us know. :-)
Really awesome moment in Lost Prime: Ben at the grave. Followed by another priceless comment of Mr. Lapidus. The climbing down to the cave was nice, and Sawyers encounter with poor frightened Richard was proof enough that candidate Ford was not ready to switch to the dark side yet. The cave with the scales and the candidates names on the ceiling reminded me of Myst, the Miller brothers game from 1994. The episodes name was genious again, covering Lockes new job as well as Jacobs efforts of finding a replacement.
Thor,,,I think the repeated motif of Mirrors,,will be involved in solidifying into one Timeline. Mirrors give us two . Remove the mirrors,,and you only have one. I like the metaphor of it.
There is an increasing focus or current of taking control, in these episodes..Responsibility seems the underlying taking. Being responsible to change what has been driving you nuts..as in Lockes case..What Physical Limitations..vs What he Wants to do, can be seen as Mirror reality..split in two..conflicted. By finally recognizing that which has been driving him nuts..the conflict..Locke is able to resolve the issues and moves on doing what he Can do. Interestingly,,like so many times before..we don't actually see the " Ah HAA!,,litebulb turning on moment..We just see the results.Mystery maintained, for now.
I really like the Test, Sawyer put on MIB Locke..in a way,, that was a lot in a nutshell..heres Sawyer hearing two sides..Ihave the answers,,versus,, he eats babies from RA..and MIB's response of ..go ahead..lets see what happens..really put the consequences of ones decisions squarely up front. If the likely consequences aren't of your liking..then why do it? Again,,th e3rd option being slyly suggested.
How many episodes will be nothing more than the 3rd option will be interesting. I think we are into some heavy thick stuff,,thus the heavy with dialogue episodes. In a way..the " end"..the "Big Answer" was last nite for alot who thought that was all there needed to be. Heck we still got 12 episodes to go..oh my.
MEL
Right, MEL… Mirrors and rabbitholes. I stopped the video when Sawyer entered the candidate chamber and ran around the block in the snow because I was afraid we would discover Jacobs hidden space ship, like in the Twilight Zone ;))
One idea I'm having right now is that what Flocke says about staying to protect the Island as the new Jacob is a lie, but instead Flocke is trying to get Sawyer to trade places with him trapping Sawyer on the Island and allowing MIB to escape. There's some conning a con man thing in that a la Ben with the 8 bunny. Taking Sawyer to the edge of the Island was of course reminiscent of that con as well. And a final part of that idea is the fact that Jacob is not trapped on the Island, we see him off the Island, but Flocke hasn't really made that idea clear to James.
OMG! I just finished watching and I haven't read any posts here yet but wanted to say hi!
This episode was awesome!!
Amazing Episode! Terrified Alpert vs Can't-give a-damn Sawyer was brilliant. So did anyone notice the huge x7 beside 16. Jarrah? Could this refer to Jacob's elaborate plan to get Hurley to travel through time to deliver the note to Dogan, telling him to save Sayid or else? After all, 7x16 is 112, and 112 is the international emergency number.
i think is interesting that the 815'ers on the wall generally have the smaller numbers then the other people on the wall. I wonder if littleton is crossed off because she has already been claimed by christain or whatever.
As much LostArg as it is Ep4 related, for those who participated in DCAAPB, but here's my random thoughts on a specific scene...
http://shutupredneckman.blogspot.com/2010/02/memento-mori.html
if jacob never touched them in the sideways then it begs the question why seth norris was still 1000 miles off course flying over the sunken island
i hope the nod to gary troupe on the wall is the sign of more arg stuff to come like alvar hanso or mittlewerk. I think sawyer always reading reminded me of jacob when locke took his nosedive out of the building. If cooper didn't throw locke out the window this time i think it speaks more to ben not being on the island. Remember ben's line to locke before he turned the donkey wheel,"sorry i made your LIFE so miserable"...
2costa
I noticed that the Losties' numbers were smaller too. Maybe it's a count down. It only ends once and they're running out of people and time. Maybe. :)
Hey you all everybody! Awesome episode. Lots of meat, no filler!
@ MEL & Thorsten or anyone! What is up with the mirrors? Metaphor for the flash sideways? Through the looking glass? Just noticed last night when they reran "What Kate Does" that the "deja vu" moments seem to happen when they look in a mirror. Jack in the airplane bathroom. Kate @ the mechanic's shop after getting rid of her bracelets. I didn't really notice a deja vu moment for Locke. He was looking in a mirror when he decided to call Jack's office. Maybe you can't have a deja vu moment if you're dead on the other side of the looking glass;)
One colloquial definition of insanity is ..expecting different results by repeating the same way of doing things..Thru-out LOST has been the repeated question ..Are you crazy, do you think I am crazy..You Are Crazy..etc etc etc..So the answer appears to be ..Yes..these Losties are crazy..and now..are realizing that to get different results..be redeemed..perhaps be made whole..a change in ways is required. John Locke realized the idea.He ‘ substituted” a way of perspective for the current way . And …he got the Subsititute Teachers Job as a result.. Interestingly enough.. it was Rose who brought him to the “ change” just as she did with Hurley in EHH. And again,,the actual “ Lite Bulb Turning On “ moment,,we did not get to see,,just as with Hurley in EHH. The cloest we got to see anything similar..was in the mirror as John thought about calling jack..The reflection seemed to be mostly of his bald head..his mind.
Ginger..the Mirror Motif of season 6 seems to me to be the Surreal idea Man living in Two realities at the same time..or Split in two by a dual existence..TPTB can’t be plagerists,,so they call it sideways ..and yes..the reflection of Lockes bald head in the mirror wasn’t by accident.
TPTB suggested thing s would be clearer by this point ..and the Big Answers dropped last nite certainly reinforce that promise . Yet,,with those Big Answers this early..there is the problem of..will they carry the viewer all the way to the end. For a lot of viewers,, why they are on the Island,,was like,, the furthest they went. So,, now what? Bottom line is..will the Viewers be able to Substitute a new perception of LOST, for what they Believed it to be up to now.? I expect the big shake out starting with this episode. ..Kinda related Irony in last nites episode..Sawyer in his Of Mice and Men bit..turned out to be the Lenny..by getting his mind blown instead..maybe the Viewer too?.And ..the great Male Bonding metaphor of those two on the rope ladders..connected back to last weeks episode with hands held..Maybe that connection happened for the Viewer too. Yea.. new perspectives ..as In how Smokie sees the world..may help the viewers get theirs together..
I think..in place of killing Richard..Richard should be made to crap himself on camera..and then go rush into the jungle to change his pants. Jake wants to be a teenager,,so let his adoring Richard suffer the worst teenager fate.
MEL
A few random thoughts/questions:
1. In episodes 6.01-6.03, Jack and Kate clearly had moments of "deja vu". Did Locke seem to experience any such moments in yesterday's episode? I didn't notice any.
2. Does anyone think we will ever see flashbacks within the sideways flashes? I want to see how Sideways Locke ended up in his wheelchair, and I want to see what Sideways Kate really did (is she an innocent woman as she claims?).
3. Why do you think the writers are giving us so many differences between the Sideways and Main versions of many of the characters? These differences must be important to the overall story in some way.
4. Who do you most want to see featured ("centric") in the Sideways timeline? I would vote for Ben. I want to find out for sure, one way or another, if he was ever on the Island in this timeline. My guess is no.
5. At this point, what are the most popular theories out there for how the Sidweways timeline relates to the Main timeline? From reading the last few thousand comments, the three I can remember are:
a. The timelines diverged at some point in the past (possibly caused by Jughead, possibly not) and may or may not converge in the future.
b. The Sideways timeline is currently completely independent of the Main timeline (there is no causality between the two at present or in the past), and the two may or may not converge in the future.
c. The Main timeline will culminate in a war in which the Island becomes submerged, and then the characters will somehow be reincarnated in the Sideways timeline (and they will go on to have the experiences we are currently seeing in these Season 6 sideways flashes). I hope this proves to be the case, since it seems to offer a chance for a happy ending for more of the characters.
I think c Blue Heron. In fact I'm a little concerned at this point that the Island will no longer be on the show soon and we'll be left with nothing but off Island stuff.
As for the Sideways flash I most want to see, Tom Friendly's.
This was a wild wild episode! I wanted to be short... but so much for that, you all have such great comments!
Ded-re: Locke's dad...There are so many father son combos... perhaps Locke is second generation Islander (other or DI) as well? Who might be his "real" father? 2Costa touched on family lines being important. We know Miles was 2nd gen as are Charlotte, Daniel...Penny. (perhaps Jack? and Claire?) And re; if Kwan on the wall is Sun or Jin...don't forget Ji Yeon Kwan??? perhaps Jin's dad l may have an Island connection?
Black Swan- re: Sawyers music- the lyrics I could make out were "worlds forgotten boy" ??? I'd have to rewatch to get the rest of the lyrics.
TAV- Hugo suave! I'm joining the chain of laughter!
That scene of Sawyer and Locke going over the side of the cliff, and mention of Mice and Men... smacked of an earlier scene with Ben, didn't it? with the bunny?
Each number was a person! ;-) ( I never saw the EyeMSick post, promise, I was happy I had figured at least ONE thing right!). I'd agree all the VE comments (including that Jacob may be Val himself SG!) Very interesting that Sawyer is the only one we know of that never left...but also now wants to leave as much as he wanted to stay. Speaking of Sawyer
memphish said I think you may be on the right track Lost2010. But that would put the reset back before 1976 which is when Sawyer's parents died. If its the right track...then if Sawyer's parents hand't died, we'd have no Jacob's touch for James either...if that's true... maybe that's why hes a final candidate?
JT said Flocke saying their was nothing to protect in the island is like John saying that button didn't need to be pushed.... It's amazing how much crossover (ex. "Do'nt tell me what I can do" was seen) and your question about belief or manipulation brings out another... will we retroactively see John Locke (the real John) in a very different way...ala Ben's eulogy?
I am also speculating that Jacob was not always the Jacob we see.... he's been several different people. Do we assume the same of MIB- or has MIB been there forever- just using different bodies (perhaps all those graves where they buried Locke represent all the bodies of previous MIB vehicles).
Black swan said .. we've seen Jacob off island, have we also 'seen' MIB off island? I vote yes. As Charles Widmore. It may be all swiss cheese, but SG earlier posted the comment Ben made to widmore about breaking the rules, both MIB and Widmore want to go home, both have a side/team, counterpart (I'm now seeing Ben and Jacob's counterpart)... I may be wrong in the end but I say MIB either IS or is strongly associated with Widmore.
2 Costa- I second all of your questions and Memphish's answers.
Sterling said So who are the other people on the cave wall? Are they just pawns to manipulate the "core" numbers? Wow...that would give a lot of people a lot of unknown power... maybe "wishy washy" kate was one of the manipulators/??
2costa said...come to think of it we don't know what numbers hugo won the lottery with in the sideways or if the core numbers have changed
EXCELLENT POINT!!! Or the variables that the numbers are interacting with have changed?
Exhausting... to entertain all these thoughts!
The idea of Sawyer being MIB's replacement and then trapped, as Des was... makes a lot of sense.
Bunny #8 trip was to show Sawyer that there was another island, was it not? (or was there no other known island at that time) But in a nutshell, there ws no way out, no use resisting?
i thought sideways lockee had deja vu when the sprinklers went off he smiled like he used to when it started raining on the island...
am i the only one that thought something dark happened to locke when he went to australia and was telling his boss it was personal...
flocke didn't make it clear to sawyer that he would still be able to leave the island if he was the new jacob and would not age
Do you think Goodspeed (Horace probably) was going to be Jacob's replacement since he was building a cabin, maybe Jacob's cabin.
That is if you believe the names are for a replacement. I'm not sure that I do.
2c... Pointing out any extra vanity points of being a Jacob..just brings one back to the original point..the island doesn't need a Jacob. The Island doesn't need protecting. Pointing out the attributes of being a Jacob,,is an appeal to the vainglorious,,and Sawyers instincts would not have accepted that...imho..
To me..MIB Locke showed a great amount of respect for Sawyer...that these two were on almost equal footing..was demonstrated in the who are you talking to? scene.MIB Locke took it up a notch with the Mice and Men scene and of course..the final " bond" happened in the rope ladder scene.
MEL
I think I've said this before but since James "Sawyer" Ford seems to be important to both the temple people and MIB.
Maybe he is the the next leader since James is a variant of Jacob.
@SG, interesting theory. Jack, of course, is also a variant of Jacob. :)
Amy Lynn
Yes you're right and they have both been leaders in their own right. Jack for the Losties and Sawyer for the DI.
So maybe they will be the new Jacob and MIB. :)
SG..interestingly..the talk is of A candidate..One...and we've been talking here of a Unification.. a Wholeness...One... since premier..Jake had 6 names. Any of which, as we have seen..doesn't cut it as anything near a Jacob,,But if they all became One..were Unified,,in redemption...then a Jacob is possible..So to me.. Jake and MIB have the same goal..a Unification ..creating a whole future..But the struggle is now..a future of status quo or a true redeemed future..created anew..This was Lockes conflict in Substitute..
I am definetly getting an Unseen presence..or the character behind the camera..These first episodes of season 6 have the feel of " projecting into the future" as if mental exercises..The " woosh" between flashes strikes me as somebody is still at the airport..at the point of take off but hasn't yet.. or..the timeline of now. Somebody is figuring stuff out..Maybe that somebody is Us.
Anyway..Horace ended up a non qualifier for being a coward..imho..He couldn't stand up to bullies like Rad..and was excused. Unfortunately..this is fascinating to me..his cabin,,was what MIB ended up being trapped in. Horace's idealism was good,, but he didn't have the stones to remain true to his Ideals.true to his Self..MIB was trapped in Horaces cowardness.
2costa, good point about flying 1000 miles off course over the island in the FS. But then again, maybe the island moved?
MEL, I don't think MIB was trapped in the cabin. Ilana went there expecting to find Jacob and discovered that since the ash circle was broken that someone else (MIB) had been using it.
lostit..where do you get Illana expecting to find Jacob?..If she was listening to Ben..big mistake there. Seems to me she was checking out the where abouts of MIB. She seemed prepared to burn it down. That the ash circle was broken..told her everything..MIB had escaped.Seems to me she was hoping MIB would have been inside. As every episode goes by ..these Jacobs People seem more tragic by the minute. Illana, I'm loosing hope for her just as I am loosing hope for the Dogen,,Richard, et al..They are not demonstrating any real hope for themselves. They are the status quo. They are protecting the status quo. They want the future to be the same as the past. There is no Hope in repeating the past. I suspect.. there is going to a few more weirdest funerals ever,,coming our way.
MEL
Seems to me..Ben got the greatest line of the episode,,what do you think?...the line about ..regretting that he murdered John Locke...What a beaut!!...Like..if he had known things were going to turn out the way they have,,he wouldn't have murdered him..I mean ,,killing some one was besides the point,,taking a life wasn't the regret..just that by killing John,,gave opportunity for the MIB to come to life,,was the regret...Classic LOST Hoot!!
MEL
Ok sorry it's OT- but I have to say yay Flying Tomato! MEL do you think we will see any representation of Exhilaration in Lost?
JT...Excellent Excellent question!! assuming the literal of your question, predisposes an Exhilaration to the Surreal or achieving the Surreal...the story got close to it with Peg Bundy,,I mean Helens last line ..equating Locke ..her Love for John..as the miracle of her life..Pretty darn close there. uuhhmm..perhaps something more advert, not so subtle? I would like to see something more overt,,in your face,,concerning Exhilaration of achieving the Surreal..But..there is a problem..How do they do that,,when its achieved simply by watching the show.? Kinda like the 2nd LOST Supper poster,,where all the characters are looking at Us..
I have mentioned the unseen moment of realization..exampled in EHH and again..here in Sub..Rose bringing a character to the point..but we never the AHH HHAA!,,the Exhilaration of finding a solution above the conflict..So..will we see it before end of show?? Maybe that will be the End of Show..end of the conflicts,,end of the drama....AAAAH...HAAAAAAA!
MEL
I have to agree with lostit.
Ilana was taking Locke to the cabin so Jacob could see the face of who he was up against. Jacob was in the cabin being protected from Smokey by the ash until someone broke the ash.
Mel asked: lostit..where do you get Illana expecting to find Jacob?..
From what Ilana said - "Someone else has been using it". and then she torched it. That tells me she was expecting someone inside and was surprised that someone else had been inside - not that someone had gotten out. She burned it to make sure that "someone else" couldn't use it anymore.
Well...alls i can say is good luck with that..see where it goes if any of it is explained..
There has been so many characters inside the cabin,,difficult to determine what was meant by Illana.. I'm not so sure that she has all the info correct. I do know that MIB Locke said he was trapped for a long time..the cabin seems likely. Jacob was free to leave island and did. I think she burned cuz MIB was using as Christian interfacing with John Locke place..Shall be interesting to say the least on any explanation offered.
MEL
MEL I think she burned cuz MIB was using as Christian interfacing with John Locke place
Exactly! MIB (AKA "someone else") had been using it!
And MIB wasn't talking about being trapped in the cabin. He was talking about being trapped on the island (as evidenced by his converstion with Sawyer). Or maybe even more figuratively trapped - trapped by the "rules".
Sawyer has definitely become MIB's equal. There is a certain amount of mirroring occurring between the two. Sawyer 'takes' out four of the Temple guards when they attempt to bring him in. Smokey took out the four 'Jacob's Bodyguards' including Bram in the Statue. They both show no fear and are expert conmen. Upon entering the cave both MIB and Sawyer are framed in the foreground of either side of the scale....Sawyer's end becoming the heavier darker side once the white stone has been discarded.
And MIB tells Sawyer:
'I know what it's like to feel joy, to feel pain, anger, fear (raises eyebrows and gives Sawyer a look)...to experience betrayal.
I know what it's like to lose someone you love.'
Sawyer is at point zero when found trapped in his 'cabin', betrayed by the loss of the one he loved. His recount of the ending of Of Mice and Men was perhaps more about his own regress from the more enlightened 'LaFleur' George back into the kitten crushing Oaf that was Lennie. He has become his own burden.
Also, I'm pretty sure I just dreamed this last night but can't shake off the haze of sleep combined with a head cold....
Jacob's list of numbers: 4, 8, 15, 16B, 23,42.
I just made that up didn't I?
Wow just managed to watch the episode and I love it. Got to go and read comments and see what I missed, but it was just so full of goodness.
The only thing that disappointed me was Locke didn't sing the Rubber Ducky song in the bath :-)
Listening to Geronimo Jack's Beard I came up with the idea that in Australia Locke went to visit Isaac of Uluru.
MEL- you know- I'm looking at your comment about Ben's funeral speech- and I just didn't feel it that way. Ben really seemed to me to be appreciating John's commitment to the island-and his own failure. No- he doesn't renounce murder- but I think he is sorry for killing John not just because it caused things to go badly, but because his admiration for John's faith has increased quite a bit. "You're a better man that I'll ever be"-was that it?
Good Morning All
lostit said...
And MIB wasn't talking about being trapped in the cabin. He was talking about being trapped on the island (as evidenced by his converstion with Sawyer). Or maybe even more figuratively trapped - trapped by the "rules".
I agree with both of these and you could also consider he meant being trapped as the smoke monster. I think the mango he was eating on the beach when he was talking to Ilana was probably the first food he'd tasted in a long time.
zort
Rubber ducky that would have been priceless. :)
memphish
Oh, I am so far behind on my podcast listening. I still haven't listen to the previous Geronimo Jack's Beard podcast.
if i am right and the other wall names and other numbers are former iterations of the timeline where the valanzetti equation had different values, then i think ben already had his candidate iteration of the timeline, before it has been tweaked in the time loop. It might explain why ben is so brazen about killing people like the freighter folk in the timeline we know as lost prime, because he knows it is only a vehicle to the next iteration. Which is probably at least the third iteration the timeline. I saw this because i can envision the timeline that preseeded 1x1 in which most of the stuff we saw already happened in cluding the time jumps and thats why chang's arm was already gone in the swan film. the 815'ers came to the island but the valanzetti equation had the numbers associated with pace, littleton, rutherford, and whoever else was on the plane that arent the current valanetti people (i.e.,jack,sawyer,sayid,ect), jughead got put in the swan but julliette never hit it or sayid didn't shoot ben. something different happened that created the timeline we saw for the last 5 seasons. Otherwise i can't really see why the core numbers change. The only other thing i can think is the other important numbers are still in play like 108. Another important number is 77, thats the amount of survivors of 815 and also the number locke pressed on the chess computer. So it's possible that kate is on the wall and we didn't see it. Just like locke 4 will probably get replaced by kate or one of the kwans in this iteration. Maybe the death of locke is what changed the core value and the sweet spot numbers no longer include 4 in the 2007 iteration. Maybe jacob is only vulnerable when one of his valanzetti numbers people has died in a particular timeline. Like locke is dead better reset the timeline.
so in a previous iteration of the timeline littleton 313 and pace 195 were the 815'er candidates, but the valanzetti equation was 313,195,?,?,and?
perhaps each era has it's shot at the timeloop/jacob job
it was a small detail on the show but between the french team crashing on the island and danielle killing robert, two weeks passed perhaps in a previous iteration this was the french teams shot at changing the timeline or fielding a jacob candidate. When their shot at the timeline fails the equation changes, but the timeline only slightly changes like faraday's ripples in the pond, this time the sideways reality is more changed cause they used a boulder in the water instead of a pebble.
futureself: Sawyer is at point zero when found trapped in his 'cabin', betrayed by the loss of the one he loved. His recount of the ending of Of Mice and Men was perhaps more about his own regress from the more enlightened 'LaFleur' George back into the kitten crushing Oaf that was Lennie. He has become his own burden.
I think this is very insightful - I've never actually read the whole book Of Mice and Men all the way through, but one of these days I'll get to it. I think there is a regression, but remember who kills who at the end!
Zort: The only thing that disappointed me was Locke didn't sing the Rubber Ducky song in the bath :-)
LOL!!!!
Memphish: Listening to Geronimo Jack's Beard I came up with the idea that in Australia Locke went to visit Isaac of Uluru.
I had the same thought when John was talking to Randy. Then when he confessed to Helen that he didn't go to the conference, it was in the middle of a conversation about not wanting to be ruled by wishing to be able to walk anymore. Going to Uluru makes sense in that context, and it's sort of the same thing Bernard was going through when he took Rose there.
I'm pretty sure Jacob is dead, ie not Sayid, not the blond boy, etc. MIB never seemed to be afraid of Jacob, but the little boy seemed to scare the snot out of him. I think this boy is more powerful than either Jacob or Flocke. Funny though that Flocke would say "don't tell me what I can't do." More like John Locke than ever, and without a hint of irony. This kid could be the reason there are rules about needing a black and a white peice. What was it he said? You're not supposed to kill him? The loophole, the rules about killing Jacob. I think MIB broke those rules and now that kid has come with death and taxes.
What if the little blond boy is the 'original' Jacob and that's why MIB was fearful.
Sorry folks. That's the best I can do! Just read through the entire thread and you guys sooo have my thoughts covered.
I'm so curious about the boy, too. Ever since Flocke showed up, I don't think we've ever seen him scared until now. And he seemed really terrified. Also, when he was yelling "Don't tell me what I can't do" he seemed to be just full of rage, and said it in a much more defiant manner than what Locke ever did.
I'm wondering what's next for the temple people. Is Richard going to go there and then they'll all just hole up in the temple, afraid of MIB for the rest of their lives? Or do they have some sort of way to defeat him? They seem so scared that I would actually be surprised if they know how to get rid of him (or keep him trapped?) I guess I'm not sure if they are afraid of what he'll do to them or if they're afraid of him leaving the island.
Richard said he would kill everyone, and he looked scared.
Is that how MIB gets off the island? By the island having no other occupants? That would explain why he was so pissed at Jacob for bringing more people to the island, and why Smokey kills people.
I am thinking out loud here, but it seems to make sense.
hmmmm.... More in that line of thought.... Smokey spares people that the MIB ends up using to gain freedom? Ben, Locke.
A theory about why Kate isn't on the ceiling.
She actually is, but Not-Locke didn't point that out to Sawyer, because to get off the island, all the other candidates have to be dead, so that Sawyer can be the new Jacob, and the two can leave together. Not-Locke knows that Sawyer will have a hard time killing Kate or allowing her to be killed.
I have zero proof for this, just a hunch. What I wouldn't give for a photograph of that entire ceiling. :)
Except that Kate isn't one of THE numbers. That's what's got me weirded out.
maybe kate is the new number 4 there is no jacob to write it on the wall atm.
flocke almost seemed like a child having a tantrum so that would make the blonde boy the parent. So i would believe the blonde boy is higher then jacob or flocke. They have said God doesn't see the island, but maybe the kid was God. I don't want to think that purgatory is back in play, but in a way the island is purgatory and smokey want's to bring about the end of days so he can stop guarding the island. It is at least smokey's own private purgatory if he has to be smokey as long as their are humans walking the earth. Jacob loves all humans," Jacob loves you as God loves you". So mib is pissed that jacob keeps giving humanity a reprieve because he is sick and tired of being the island's mall cop. I think unless flocke slowly turns to fully human getting off the island is just a long con on sawyer. Smokey wants to end the world as we know it.
actually i think its "jacob loves you as God loved Jacob or You(cant remember", but i think it's like the Nietzsche idea that God is dead, jacob loves you in the present like God loved in the past tense.
Smokey is so pro-free will because he resents the rules that blond boy makes him follow. "Dont tell me what i can't do" is like challenging God's authority. So the heart of free will vs. destiny debate. Just remember Everyone answers to someone, that will be important. the judge will be judged
G'day Locos! All your comments are very helpful.
Interesting thought about Kate Rachel. Let's keep our eyes out for the next few Lost magazines on the news stands, they great have photo spreads of the set designs and details, maybe the cave ceiling might show up soon as well.
I also like your idea MadAriad about why MIB is so PO'd about people being brought to the island. Heheh, maybe the island-spaceship has a weight limit and it can't take-off back into outerspace with more than two poeple on it. :-B
i had it reversed.
"God loves you as He loved Jacob"
god loves humanity just not jacob anymore. i now think this video was to groom sawyer as the new jacob. " We are the cause of our own suffering" god loves you(sawyer) as he loved jacob". Karl may have been a candidate or could have watched a different film in room 23. Which would show the others have some notions about candidates and are playing coy with smokey.
Interesting thoughts about the boy and some kind of parent-child relationship, 2c!
Also, something else I was thinking about and wanted to mention: The word "candidate" comes from the Latin word "candida" which means "white". I think it became a political term because in ancient Rome "Candidates" would wear a white robe as opposed to other colors worn by people with different status. Not a huge deal, I'm sure, but an interesting little thing to notice, since Jacob has been represented as the light or white side of things.
room 23 was a direct reference to the movie in clockwork orange. That is also a study of free will. Alex in ACO loses his right to free will(through the brainwashing movie) and ultimately is given it back at the end because he can no longer defend himself from society. Smokey is pissed jacob is playing dirty pool using brainwashing techniques to influence his candidates. Is sawyer really making a free choice afte having to watch the room 23 movie. Karl seemed pretty brainwashed towards jacob.
Maybe Jacob and MIB have been on the island since they were children.
Maybe seeing Jacob as a young boy means he's been reincarnated. I know it's just a thought.
I do wonder what Ilana is going to do with Jacob's ash.
LostIt said...
MEL I think she burned cuz MIB was using as Christian interfacing with John Locke place
Exactly! MIB (AKA "someone else") had been using it!
Hmm, this leads my train of thought a bit. Are you suggesting that Illana knows MIB "can't, he's stuck like this" now because the Cabin, which is now destroyed, was somehow important to the process of taking a new shape?
That is an interesting thought that MIB can't change his appearance because Ilana burned the cabin.
SG, I couldn't believe that Ilana just took a half-filled small bag of ash with her, and then put that into the larger bag--I would have filled the bigger bag for more ash ammo!
There is a problem with changing appearence..Claire and Christian. Now..if Illana believes MIB can be no one else besides Locke..Illana may have a surprise or two waiting for her in the jungle...Could be her undoing.
I'm not sure Illana has all the info.
MEL
lol capcom
I’ve been throwin Illana’s dart around for awhile now;seeing where it lands.I think I got her now…She is a variant of Ben. Ben is out and out lies..deceit..Illana is Deception,,a more camouflaged version of deceit. I’m seeing how she used deception to capture our honest fellow Sayid. Now she charges into the jungle,,with the belief that she is playing with all the cards…she knows everything that is going on..The deception she plays..just mite be on herself. ..I think Schmoockie mite have some fun with her before her end..Claire andor Christian just mite be the bait.This assumes Claire and Christian are claimed by MIB already of course…Well..if Illana has assumed command of the group..such is the pitfalls of command..You really never know everything..so stop assuming that you do.
MEL
MEL, I don't get that from Illana. I read her the opposite. She's faking knowing what to do next (as many 'leaders' before her), I feel she's pretty scared and running for cover to The Temple.
On face value, Jacob appears to offer up a choice. You can choose to do this, will you do that for me, it's up to you...
But Sayid is never given a choice into returning to the Island. Sure Jacob doesn't directly handcuff him and frogmarch him onto the plane but he does ask Illana to.
Old Smibby, unsurprisingly, is critical of Jacob's style and intentions:
'At some point in your life James, probably when your were young, when you were miserable and vunerable he came to you, he manipulated you, pulled your strings like you were a puppet. And as a result, choices that you thought you made were never really choices at all. He was pushing you James. Pushing you to the Island.'
Sawyer asks 'Why the hell would he do that?'
The answer: 'Because, you're a candidate...'
So the candidate, according to Smibby, gets Jacob's job. And that job is to protect the Island, which Smibby claims needs no protection. But then Smibs is admittedly trapped and has his own agenda.
Still, I'm starting to really warm to Smibby. Maybe he's just misunderstood after all.
Chris, I agree that she is scared but she does know a hell of a lot more than the other leaders we've seen. Richard didn't even know what a candidate was. Illana does, as well as knowing about the cabin, the statue, Smokey, Jacob and the temple. I think we'll find out a lot more from her.
Sure FS, I agree, she DID know a lot, but she's just lost her crew and been thrown completely off guard. I get the feeling that what she thought she knew doesn't count for much now and that she knows it. But I do think her story is going to be one of the best and I can't wait to see it.
I can't wait either!
One thing you can say about Illana is that she's holding it together a lot better than Alpert is...poor guy :)
I really hope we get to *know* Ilana better. At this point, she still seems like a throwaway character.
I'm finding the Alpert disintegration very unnerving I have to admit.
Yeah Amy, she has been floating on the peripherals of the S5/6 but there are a number of things that make her very interesting, namely that she knows Jacob and his business. Apart for perhaps Flokey, she is the first character who seems to be fully briefed. Rather like the box in S5, she's being kept annoying closed.
New theory: Maybe the event that split the timelines wasn't jughead exploding, but Jacob's murder. That would give us, in effect, the "Jacob" timeline and the "Smokey" timeline, only to be brought together when balance is restored to the island by the selection of Jacob's successor. Also, anyone else think the only way the Man in Black can escape from the island is if there is no "protector" in charge? If so, his window of escape will be open only as long as no candidate takes Jacob's job.
Work has been a boar this week.I haven't been able to get caught up yet..I do have some thoughts;
Even John Locke's mechanical legs give out on him. Once was when nothing bad ever happens to me Hugo's Hummer was about to get creamed by John's ramp. John's alarm clock is the same alarm that The Swan had when the timer reached one minute.
Was the animal question in Locke's interview,the same one in the Dharma Wants You registration?
Many games are depicted on Lost;
Chutes and Ladders (re Jacob's ladder); any significance to how it is played?
Be back soon.
Hey TAV
I can't believe I didn't realize right away it was Hurley's Hummer. I who else drives a yellow Hummer.
I noticed that about the alarm clock too. I'm not sure but I think the clock said 815 too.
Yes the was one of the DWY questions. :)
I mean who else...
Nice observations TAV! I think that you need to roll the exact number that lands you on the top rung to win cheese and larder. Perhaps there are 108 steps and the best laid numbers avoid the cheese and the trap.
I obsessing numbers here and my earlier mention of the cave roof revealing 7 x Sayid (16) = 112 (international emergency number).
7 is an important number in Lost. Enter 77 for a big explosion (both in the Flame and the Year of the Incident). But 112 is not really a recurring number. 1+1=2 perhaps suggesting the answer is right in front of us. 1+1+2=4=Locke. But only 2 of our 'numbers' divide into 112. 4 and 16.
28 x 4,
or how about
7 x 4 x 4, or
7 x 16.
So through a sideways split 7 and 7 become the exposive 77, and Locke x Locke = Sayid through the incident.
Thoughts... SG and AmyLynn said James and Jack are possible variant of Jacob (and to see them be the new opposing forces would be pretty cool!)...but since we've been talking a bit about father son relationships... I'll offer this.... Biblically... Benjamin is the youngest, (second to Joseph) favored son of his father Jacob. And is a son of Rachel..... ?? (Just for the record, Jacob also has a son named Dan)
2 Costa- thanks for ACO info. Very interesting. RE: all the freewill stuff being talked about
Erich said New theory: Maybe the event that split the timelines wasn't jughead exploding, but Jacob's murder. I thought too that this could just as much be the "incident" as anything having to do with the swan or bomb. I like your timeline split...
Hey guys.
Just going to jump in here. When they burned the cabin they said someone else had been using it. Seems to me now that it was probably Claire. Maybe it was Claire that broke the line of ash as well.
The thing that puzzles me is that in a previous season it seemed to be suggested that the Cabin was built by Horace. Maybe that was just Smokey manipulating people. But if Horace built it and Smokey was trapped in there or Jacob was using it as a safe place to communicate with people that must have happened comparatively recently.
With the names/numbers. I wonder if there is still some relevance at all to the Valenzeti Equation. It could be that they are the constants and by one of them taking over from Jacob they will change their number and therefore save the world. Honestly though I think they dropped that idea a long time ago.
On a more serious note though, I noticed the list is all surnames. Perhaps the Kwon in question is their child. You could possibly even extend that theory to other blood relatives (which opens the door for other Shepards and Fords too). I certainly think there is something in only listing the surnames.
Lasty, I just realized that Jacob is also Lucifer. :o)
@Fenris, possible, about the last names, but Flocke did confirm that Shepard is Jack. Unless he's wrong.
Hey LoCo's!
Just getting caught up with comments here.
futureself -- your blog post on The Substitute was a good read, and that was a nice catch and analysis about the scene with the scale/stones in the foreground and Flocke and Sawyer in the background.
As to why Kate's name was not shown to us on the cave wall/ceiling, I see a few possibilities which have for the most part have been mentioned:
-AUSTEN appears (possibly as #108), but wasn't shown
-Kate's name may appear as a different surname, maybe Janssen since this was her biological father's name
-Flocke erased AUSTEN (while I think it's possible I'd doubt this since the 1st option I listed above may be about the same)
-Kate's name has yet to be written
-Kate was never a Candidate...but represents something else, since Jacob still visited/touched her.
I doubt we'll see this, but it would be interesting to know when each of the Candidate's names/#s were written on the wall -- when Jacob first learned of the, when they arrived on the Island, or when they were first considered to be a Candidate.
Jacob didn't visit Hurley or Sayid until after the O6 left the Island, so were they "replacement" Candidates after other Candidates were crossed out?
Oops, sorry, blogger double posted this, so I deleted the 1st one.
If Kate is 108, or the key to the whole damn show, I will not be impressed.
I have two thoughts from rewatch-
The way the boy in the woods says- "You CAN'T kill him." sounds to me like "It isn't possible to kill him." Maybe meaning- because of the rules it is not possible for you to kill Jacob. We'll see.
Second- why are Helen's fingernails black? For a figure of hope and love, Karma and Peace- boy that is weird.
Rewatching "The Subsitute" now and have some random thoughts.
When Smokie-Cam seems to stop outside Sawyer's room at New Otherton, could he be scanning him then?
When Richard asks Flocke: "What do you want?" And Flocke answers that he just always wanted him to come with him...does he mean be on his side or to "go home" with him?
When Flocke first see the boy, Richard's back is to him, so by the time he see Flocke's reaction and turns around the boy is gone. It's possible the boy would have been visible to him to like he was to Sawyer. I still feel he's a young Jacob born again.
Hurley sure is lucky this time...John's wheelchair lift stops just short of scratching up his Hummer.
A lot of key phrases from the show relating to Locke keep popping up now in slightly different circumstances: Helen telling John that it must be destiny; Flocke using Locke's key phrase "Don't tell me what I can't do" to the boy; Ben's eulogy "he was a man of faith".
When Flocke says "it's just a damn island"...do all islands have FDW that transport people to different time lines and places and make the island disappear...do all islands heal people and have magic pools of water that resurrects people?
I'm thinking that MIB was also manipulated and lured to the island by Jacob many years ago when he was a man (like he told Sawyer). I'm wondering if we'll eventually learn his human name and see it crossed off on the Cave List?
Back to the rules and who can kill who- when Ben confronted Widmore in the hotel- Ben says "We both know I can't do that"- which could mean it's against the rules so I won't- or literally that it can't be done.
When Keamy kills Alex- Ben doesn't say that Widmore "broke" the rules- he says he "changed " the rules.
It all just makes me wonder if the rules actually keep you from being able to do something- not just give consequences if you break them. Not sure how Widmore could "change" those kind of rules though.
Ilana still seems as if she's an Other from another time. We saw Jacob visit her and ask for her help. She speaks Latin, knows about the Cabin, Candidates, Jin, knew to go to the Statue, knows about the Temple and seems to know about Smokey's capabilities. When Ben found her crying inside the Statue, I think she was saddened but also surprised by Jacob's death. I think Jacob knew that he was going to die, but did not share that with Ilana. While she may have have understood the Jacob's death was a possibility, I don't think Ilana thought it would actually happen. So he was crying out of frustration and despair. But, Ilana is the only person we saw Jacob openly ask for help, so she may be privy to details of a contingency plan.
Fear was something that I noticed and was even commented on by Sawyer. Until this season, we have seen Richard calm and collected. But since the Flocke "It's nice to see you out of chains Richard" scene in LA_X, Richard has been increasingly scared, even disconcertingly so in this episode.
Sawyer says to Flocke, "'Cause you sure as hell ain't John Locke. Cause Locke was scared. Even when he was pretendin' he wasn't. But you? You ain't scared."
An insightful observation on Sawyer's part, but then a couple scenes later we see Flocke genuinely afraid when he see and chases the blond boy in the jungle.
Not sure what all of that means though, except that we are entering "uncharted territory" of sorts for Jacob, MIB/Flocke and the Island. And that the blond boy probably wasn't Jacob since MIB never seemed to be afraid of Jacob, but was clearly afraid of the blond boy, or whatever he represents. (I guess seeing a reincarnated young Jacob may scare Flocke as I think MEL suggested, but then I would have expected Flocke to say something more to the effect of, I just killed you. )
perhaps flockes fear of the blonde boy prompted him to say "dont tell me what i cant do" because he is becoming more lockesque(full of fear) the longer he keeps locke's form, maybe lockes weaknesses are the downside of his long loophole plan, he also seemed to wince in pain when he tripped. Perhaps he is trying to get sawyer's form.
maybe if mib takes a canidate's form and becomes the new leader, jacob goes around like a white pillar of smoke.
Yes, Ilana had traveled to the cabin and then to the foot to show Jacob and his people the face of who they were up against only to be to late to save Jacob. That had to be very frustrating and sad.
But I do think she aware of what she needsd to do next. Hope to see that soon.
illana also let flocke leave hydra island with ben when she already had locke's corpse in the crate
what if the last names in the cave belie a family line's predispositon to be a candidate. if youll recall illana was working for one of sayid's targets for ben. What if ben was trying to stomp out possible canidates lines with sayid
Seems to me Kate being Free Will eliminated herself from Jakes Cave long ago...if she ever was even on the ceiling. Free Will..realizing infinite possibilities,,escaping the mundane and the status quo..as in,,I don't do Tacos ( hhmmm..maybe a newer version..I don't do Jacob)..just doesn't fit within the parameters of a Candidate. Free Will is all about escaping the paradigms. Like Schoomkle Doodle Doo put it..realizing choices that you never knew you had..Kate actually owns Made In Baangalahardadooty..She don't know it yet. He does..and thats why he ain't in no particular hurry with her and went after Sawyer first.
As the Great Easter Egg of season 3 put it..its all about escaping the enslavement of Time and Space..freeing the Imagination...accessing the Imagination unencumbered..Free.Kates got the free part down..Perhaps the Imagination waits for us at the end..?
Illana isn't free of nothing..Her "bounty Hunter" suggests she is all about incarceration...Richard has settled for an Incarceration of sorts.. hes settled for the Status quo..Hes stopped searching..Hes stopped "living"..Hes resigned to the quaint hobby of ships in a bottle..( great visual metaphor there)..so yea..he is frightened by Change...unnerved.
And the teen age Jacob..I don't suppose SchmibbibleyDeBendego was really scared by his appearance. He did give chase after young Jake..Seems to me,,TikiTikiOnaWannamoolu was Upset,,P.O'ed,, angered,,by the teen Jake..and to be reminded of " rules"..the last thing freedom offering Clakamakaclikclak wants to hear..well its no wonder Frizzfazzfazzygiveadogabone went ballistic. Of course the irony..a teenager reminding an old man about Rules.. is so laffable ironic..Imean..the scene in a sense,,broke the rules of mundane expectations, the status quo..a very beautiful metaphor indeed. It just seems to me,,that LOST is really making it easier and easier to see the surreal.
All of Jakes People are in Fear.Black is not evil,,Black is not bad. Black is the Unknown. Black is the Mystery..of what awaits you in your Imagination.And its true..the status quo protectors,,are scared to their bleeding gums about that. But what that fear brings them to, will be their own downfall...imho.
MEL
Just remembered there's another instance of 3 choices -- Run, Hide or Die!
Hmmmm.... The Rules make you unable to kill someone, because they can't die unless the rules change. This has got me thinking about how Micheal tried several times and was unable, because "the Island" wouldn't let him. But then after the whole freighter thing, he is pretty much is assumed dead. So in the rules, I think there is some sort of thing like "can't" meaning it's against the rules and THEREFORE, it's actually impossible. Causation.
TPTB have long hinted at the metaphor of death ,as used in LOST...put an end to..may be the most specific one can get with it..or..Change.
MEL
@Zort
lol...if that's Locke's Rubber Ducky Song, then this is Flocke's.
link
Hi all...migrated from LostArg. Couldn't resist posting this.
@seague: LOL Welcome here at TLC!
Thanks, Maven. I get the worst earworm from that clip. Caught myself singing it at the office one day...not a good thing. ;)
Seaque..excellent intro!! Howdy!
On the rules...and " You Can't Kill Him.."...well yea..kinda obvious ..Albert became complacent...the ship in the bottle metaphor. So...yea.. You Can't Kill Complacency...well duh!..hhhmm..goes back to Teenage Jake as Teenage LOST FAN..it works.
What angered Chromedomelookinforahome was that Teen age Jake commanded him about anything..Jake took the form of a teen ager to Insult the teacher.But nothing quiets the classroom like a lesson on human reproductive systems.
MEL
LOL right Mel, I was rewatching the ep with my 10 year old nephew, and when Locke said "human reproductive system" my nephew said, "Yuck, I don't want to take that class!"
Hi Fenris, welcome to season 6 talk! Greg over at EyeMSick thinks that about Lucifer as well. :-)
So True Cap, so true..perhaps above the head of a 10 yr old..but.. just as TPTB have been hinting at Death as a metaphor...then...human reproductive system suggests a metaphor as well..
as in...human reproductive system = how we create a future. The idea of Locke substituting his "perspective " with another,thank you Rose, comes full circle not only as Locke getting a job he can Do..but in exploration of that Talent..is how a future is created.
MEL
Well the next real question is ,,,
Will this episode win anybody a Emmy?
I think so..again as noted already..Terry O quinn playing the dual roles..just about opposite in nature as can be...slayed..he slayed! absolute killer. but the writers of this episode...imho..just as magnificent..Terry was given great stuff to work with and rose to challenge.
Such talent needs to be rewarded in the future Emmy Awards.
MEL
And not to mention how coincidental it is that Locke's teaching that subject, which is also a very serious subject on the island.
I was also thinking that this ep would make a good one to enter for the Emmys, so much good stuff, but then we haven't seen much of the season yet. But TO'Q's duality is usually what makes the voters happy...that and the proverbial and tired "hooker with a heart of gold", but hopefully Flock and Locke won't be going in that direction any time soon. :o) But since Lost has an endpoint, they might be holding out on Lost like the Oscars did for LOTR, i.e., they decided to wait until all three movies were released to give them as much as they deserved. Phooey, that dimishes the specific work done in the previous iterations that doesn't get recognized. :-p
I meant to say that duality is usually a quality that they like, not TO'Q's specifically, cuz we didn't really see that until this season. Shutting up now. :o)
Wait, not shutting up yet....has anyone heard from Andalone/Bonnie recently? I don't think she's had any activity on FB lately, and she hasn't been here yet. I don't know if she's still active at LostARGs, I haven't been there in a while. Hope she's OK.
10-4
@Capcom, yeah, andalone is still active on Twitter at least. I miss her
Terry was fabulous again in this episode...could definitely serve as his Emmy selection.
Andalone is very active on twitter...miss her on the blog!
I re-watched again last night and I have to agree, TO'Q's performance was exceptional. So much subtlety across two very different characters. An award winning performance if there is any justice.
i think locke being a sub for science also ties into how when locke was a teen and richard was recruiting him he was a science nerd, he didn't take his outdoorsman turn until he met cooper.
Ben's european history job reminded me of his talk with john in the hatch about russian literature. Those who don't know history are bound to repeat it is telling in the lost timeloop sense
I really liked the triple use of the title... Locke as substitute teacher, needing to find a substitute for Jacob, and Sawyer as the new John Locke.
i also am pretty confident that in one of the previous iterations of the timeline, littleton, pace, rutherford, troupe, and ? were the 815 candidates. Perhaps jacob noticed sayid, jack, sawyer, locke, and kwon as periphery players in the previous iteration and touched them the next time around. I don't think that jacob dying triggered the new timeline, the incident probably did do that, because obviously the timeline has been reset before without jacob dying, if my theory above is true. It's more likely that who jacob touches in a particular iteration of the timeline affects how the timeline plays out.
i wonder if locke's body was a proxy for smokey. isn't proxy just a fancy way of saying substitute
Tx Amy and Maven, tell Andalone that we miss her here, she should come around! :-)
I agree, the title of this ep is another one that has multiple meanings, applications, or interpretations, for sure. Very interesting.
@Capcom: Talked with Andalone and encouraged her to post here. She says she doesn't post much on blogs except for DCAAPB stuff. I told her to unlurk!
Aw yes, she should delurk, we're the same friendly group as on LostARGs. And she makes some good "funnys" in her comments too. :o)
i wonder if the last thing mib has to do is kill or engineer the death, since he can't directly kill them, of the remaining candidates before a new jacob can be sworn in. that way there would be no new jacob to touch future canidates and thus end the cycle. perhaps the flash sideways is a world with no old jacob and no new jacob and we will see what the island was protecting the rest of the world from and ultimately the end of days...
also perhaps Ben could only kill a candidate(locke) when he was off the island. He certainly tried to kill locke on the island but it wasn't working
In case anyone hasn't seen these yet, here are some funny Foggy Memories Of Lost passed to me by my friend Wayne Allen Sallee.
Capcom, very cool link. Thanks for that... I love those.
The Foggy Memories are brilliant Cap :D
Awesome interpretations of Lost classic moments, Capcom!
capcom
Your friend Wayne has done a great job on the Foggy Lost Momories.
Yes- funny foggies-good thing we have Lostpedia!
FYI: Carlton just tweeted that the podcast is delayed and won't be posted until Monday. It's not their fault.
Two more thoughts-
If the flash sideways is without Jacob's touch, it doesn't mean the Losties lives are automatically "better". Jacob never told Katie to be good- so she wasn't. She became a criminal who puts quite a bit of gusto into taking out Mars and hijacking that cab. Perhaps she doesn't kill her father- but that may be because she isn't as appalled at his behavior.
Second thing is that the numbers are getting smaller through time on Jacob's ceiling- but he doesn't have a #1 there yet.
MEL and Capcom- you note the human reproductive system and being able to create a future... and the link to the island. The women on the island could conceive a "future", but die in the process of carrying it and not deliver. Cool analogy of the island and struggle between MIB/Jacob and different versions of the future- which might have been responsible for the death of the future. Juliette was brought by ben/alpert to solve that problem but couldn't.....wonder if there's something significant about the "second trimester"? What did Juliette say to Sun? Something about the baby's attack on the woman's immune system?
TOL..Since we are into analogous, metaphoric , the allegorical..seems to me the Death of the pregnant women on the Island..is another way of saying ,,these people couldn't conceive of new idea,,be creative,,if their life depended on it. Julie was brought to fix it. Unfortunately..only they themselves could fix it. Its not something Science can fix.
John changed his perspective..withe guidance of Rose ( spirituality) and Helen's Love..Rather than repeating his behavior and expecting a different result,,thus forever frustrated..conflicted, he changed and got the job; a job he appears to have a Talent for and makes him happy,,even in the presence of the anal retentive Ben. The folks of Ben and Jake Island didn't change. Status quo. Their " ideas" were "still born"...or..like you suggest..killed their creators.Maintaining the status quo will do that. Repeating the past will kill you.
Flooggagoogale's "Home" is the answer to the question..Who Am I?..John Lock,,if even only a musing of a possible future..has got his GPS working and is well on the way.Jack admitting to being Lost, Sayid created the Gps,,Claire wrapped it in paper and ribbon bow ,Kate gave him it. Rose and Helen, pushed the buttons for him...if I may be metaphorical in tieing first part of season 6 together.
MEL
Post a Comment