This description says it all:
The sixth and final season begins in the aftermath of the H-bomb detonation, as the survivors learn "when" they are.
Here we go......
Tuesday, February 02, 2010
LA X - Season 6, Episode 1
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1,212 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 800 of 1212 Newer› Newest»Perhaps not so much Des being sucked back in time as sucked sideways to the other reality. Which is probably similar to the case of Christian's corpse.
Fascinating question? The last we saw of Des was as the presumed ,,I'm done with the Island!! and encounter with Ben at the marina. From the intro of Des , way back in season two, I've always seen the Des character as " guilt". Remember his line after Kate hit him over the head and a ricochet bullet took out the computer?.." Oooh now look at whatcha done!!..guilt.
So the return of Des is the return of guilt. Guilt and going to the Temple..thats not too difficult of a connection to grasp, is it?
So, yes, there is a relationship, a connection, between Des and Jake and Temple. But to see it..one has to see the relationship between the Plane (or plain) reality presented, and the phantasmigoric reality of gathering wool in the clouds...the Island.
MEL
Ben’s DI leftovers and his new recruits from outside the island my be others but they didn’t live the lifestyle of the temple others.
This is what he said to Locke in The Man From Tallahassee: I was born on this island. (Of course he’s lying about this part at least) Not many of my people can say that. Most of them were recruited and brought here and as much as they love this place, as much as they would do anything to defend it, they need to know they can leave if they want to. The sub maintains that illusion...
...They're here because they want to be here! Some of them are just not ready to make a full... commitment yet.
I agree this may have been Ben’s downfall. It’s also a good possibility that MIB manipulated Ben as a young child. Richard may have been duped by MIB also. He found young Ben in the jungle looking for his mother. When Richard finds out Ben’s mother is dead I think he believes Ben is special. So when he’s shot he takes Ben to the temple.
So MIB could have manipulated 2 emotionally need people to get what he needed. Cindy I’m still up in the air about. She certainly committed quickly not to have already been an other.
I think there's a reasonable chance that Ben thinks he WAS born on the island.
Well you could argue Ben was reborn when was (presumably) submerged in the Cocoon style swimming pool as a lad.
You guys got awful chatty after 2:00 my time. I'm a page an a half behind. lol
Capcom
I'll go check out your Sayid post as soon as I catch up here.
Does anyone remember why Richard agreed to take Ben to the Temple? Was it because he knew Kate and Jack from their time travel? That's why he went to visit Locke as a child. If that's the case, Ben's rise to power and Locke being "special" really could have been influenced by an elaborate MIB plan to fool Richard (maybe even Jacob).
The Video podcast features the "Sunset on the Beach"…
iTunes Link
@Erich... he took Ben because he knew Ben from their previous encounter, when he told Ben to be very, very patient and wait until the time was right.
So knowing what we know about MIB/Smokey, is it now safe to say we've answered "what the sickness is"? The French team is taken by smokey under the temple, and come out "different", which Rousseau assumes is a sickness. Seems to me the "different" Frenchies who come out of the temple are the same thing as the "different" Locke who turned out to be Smokey/MIB.
@Amy Lynn: Thanks. That's right. Ah, well. Scratch that theory off the list.
Richard visited Locke as a child because he followed Esau|Lockes instructions. And Alpert did not know Kate and Jack from any time travel. The only TT Jack and Kate made was the jump from Ajira 316 to 1977, and now to 2007.
..in any case , Ben believing he was born on the Island only completes,,makes whole, Ben as Deceit. I mean, deceiving ones self makes deception complete.
The bottom line question seems to center around Smokie.. I contend Smokie was ..of little concern to Jake. Jakes nonchalant,, status quo, nature suggests that Jake wasn't concerned about Smokie..everyhing will be all right,,it will be okay. Smokie was on its own, more or less a wild tantrum throwing , leave me alone, monster that indeed,acts as the cerberus,, security system,,the Conscience. Jake was okay with it being left to its own.
Aaah!..but not MIB..MIB knows the power of of the Conscience and Masters It. This is a Key to understanding the,,Creating A Future aspect of Season 6......imho.
MEL
@Thorsten. Ha. Goes to show how confused my brain really is after all the time travel last year.
The french team were different from Locke. They died. When Jin finds the bodies of Brennan and Lacombe on the beach, they decay and smell. Rousseau then shoots Robert, and he dies…
No problem, Erich, it's a lot to keep track of ;))
@Thorsten - DARNIT! Good point. Then again, Richard stopped Ilana from shooting Flocke, so maybe the same could have happened to him? Other than body decay, which could have more to do with being out in the sun vs. locked in a cool steel box, I don't see a lot of difference.
I dunno - I'm grasping ;)
Ben has become a real cockroach! Don't get me wrong, I love Ben, but really! His shock at killing Jacob, not understanding why he didn't fight back made him so sympathetic. But then he goes back to his slippery and spiteful lying ways, telling the Richard that Jacob is fine and he should go find out for himself. He cowers and hides and is in shock and awe at Smlocke's wrathful carnage of 'Jacob's bodyguards' but he's a survivor and I reckon he'll dance with the devil to keep his head above the water. Nevertheless, I do think he'll redeem himself in a tragic (and probably reluctant) way in the end.
Good point SG, about some of the Others not being "true" Others per se...some of them were recruited like Juliet, Patchy, Kelvin, etc. So their loyalty would be temporary at best, thinking that they might leave eventually but not knowing that they won't. But I guess a long as they're there (and gone through Rm23?), they're loyal to the cause, the "Great Man", the temple, etc. Which makes me ask, I wonder why Juliet wasn't put thru Rm23 to put her out of her misery?
Thorsten
That’s true he didn’t know them from the time traveling but Sawyer (which is who I think Erich meant) told him about the bomb so I think he knew they were from a different time. Or at least something was different about them.
As far as Ben believing he was born on the island. I think that's a case of telling the lie for so long that be began to believe it himself.
But didn't Ben confess to someone that he lied about being born on the island? Something, "OK, so I lied about that, but I'm not about this", whatever the other thing was.
LOL...Smlocke. :-)
Ben lost his innocence at the temple.He lies that's what he does. ;)
capcom
I'm not sure I believe Ben used the DI's room 23 to brainwash the recurits into loyalty. Not that it isn't a possibility.
capcom
Yeah I think it was to Jack when he wanted him to do the surgery. I'm not sure if he's told anyone else.
I see what you're saying. But I think he does believe it for the most part though. The truth just swims to the surface from time to time when it can't be avoided.
Ben returning to slime ball ways is a consequence of MIB Locke becoming known to have control of Smokie..Alex manipulates Ben,,therefore Ben is now liberated from Alex Ghost. Yet,,all of that allows for the wonderful and central discussion between Ben and MIB Locke,,about the olde John Locke. If there is a more real assessment of Mankind,,after 2 world wars and the continuations of little wars since..after era after era of humankinds " improvement" and various proclaimed Golden Ages and yes, multitudes of Dark Ages, if there is a any more realistic assessment done so artfully and poetically, then please tell me about it so I can be entertained by it as least as much as I was taken by that scene. It was a great LOST moment on par with the Red Soxes winning the world series scene in season 3..Beauty!...and Ben, deceit, was instrumental in both. Magnificent !!
MEL
Does that mean Des died in that AR?
For sure, Ben has got to be delusional by now. :-o
Ben's still lying when he comes out of Jacob's lair...everything's fine in there, Locke just wants to talk to you Richard.
I thought Ben recovered really well actually- enough to say to Richard after seeing dead Locke- that he should go in and see Jacob. He didn't just start babbling- which really could have been justified at that point.
Depends on your perspective. With Jacob gone, everything actually was fine in there, and "Locke" did want to talk to Richard.
LOL Maven, "Everything's fine, nothing to see here, you can all go home now."
...yea..there was the not so subtle suggestion in the Ben/RA exchange of First Hand experience being more honest. Experience it yourself to find out, do not take my second hand word. Truth is within the individual, not outside.
MEL
Just reading up on 'Haroun and the Sea of Stories', the book Des reads on the 316b.
One of the characters in the book, Mali, described as a 'floating gardener' made up of flowering plants and water vines, has the role of preventing 'stories from becoming irretrievably convoluted and to cut away weeds that grow on the Oceans surface'. He is virtually invulnerable. I've not read the book but feel there is something very 'smokey' about him, especially when he sings his rhymes when defying attacks:
"You can chop a flower-bush,
You can chop a tree,
You can chop liver, but
You can't chop me!
You can chop and change,
You can chop in ka-ra-tee,
You can chop suey, but
You can't chop me!".
What about this?
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lost/he/images/d/d6/LockeDrawingSmokey.jpg
Jorge and Beth's podcast was very interesting...they seem as confused as the rest of us! (They are just getting the story from the script that hasn't been shot yet...these have been held back until each episode airs.)
Interesting how the Ben/RA exchange, leads to SMokie taking out the Jake body guards,,which leads to Trust dieing...and then back to Charlie saying I was supposed to die..Self defeatism leads to the temple. Quite the metaphor, quite the allegory...imho.
MEL
Mel- it seemed to me that according to your Ben is Deceit scenario that he is just going back to essence. Ben lies, that's what he does.
btw Maven.. the " rest of us"??? uummm perhaps a Rainbow Drive In Chili Dog would clear the air of confusion..perhaps not. ;)
Its all in the metaphor.
MEL
Young Ben was innocent when he was taken to the temple to be healed. Richard says that by healing him 'his innocent will be gone'.
Sayid most definitely was not innocent when resurrected. The water he was submerged in was murky. Will he be the opposite to Ben? Reborn and washed of his sins?
That's what I'm wondering Futureself. Since he was so longing for redemption.
JT..yes..with MIB Locke exposed as controlling Smokie..or at least Not the olde John Locke,,then Ben is free of the Alex Ghost and its manipulation of Ben..so Ben reverts. Which is okay,,cuz like the old saying, keep your friends close, but your enemies, even closer...Yea,,know the deceit within you,,its capabilities..or..knowing Who You Am..is also contingent upon knowing who you ain't. Ben as deceit,,recognized deceit..has value.
MEL
The flight to the collective conscious of US cannot be successful without a resolution to the 'I'sland. Usually it's only when we reflect on arrival that the story makes sense.
future..is that a..you have to be on the Island,,to understand the Island..kinda statement. Perhaps that is what Ben alludes to in the exchange with RA..first hand experience?
Its really easy..just like Jack,,alls you have do is go wool gathering in the clouds. Leave the plain reality behind.
MEL
Does a shephard have to ex-plain to tend to his flock?
..seems to me that a mystic shepherd of 2000 years ago did,,an yes,,we're still trying to understand him today.
Such is the nature of speaking in parables,,which IMHO is the only way to understand LOST. Using Logic and reason only brings one to a list of a 1000 questions unanswered. How frustrating!, or as MIB Locke put it..last thought was, I don't understand..How sad. But Locke was reborn so there is Hope.
Its all in the metaphor
MEL
Totally different direction here- but a nice fellow at LP had his nicer wife translate the Japanese from the show-
It is here- don't know if it got to the wiki yet-
Japanese
Ahh- this is cool- a side by side of the two Jack on 815 flights on you tube-
815
SG - Am I allowed to use this avatar? I don't want to impersonate you or anything. :)
Listening to official ABC Podcast with Damon & Carlton. Episode 3 is discussed (title and who is centric in it). Otherwise, very helpful for Ep 1 & 2.
lost2010
Absolutely fine. I seen that on your blog and saved it. I thought about cropping it and using it.
I'm waiting to see how his story line goes. But I'll probably change my avi. after a couple of episodes.
Besides anytime I can see a hot picture of Sayid (Naveen) I'm happy. ;)
My comment is getting too long. I'm going to post this and then go back to catching up on comments.
Capcom said: I think that Sayidsgirl would like to see some naykid Jaykid, heheh.... You could fight water-Jacob with a shop vac **buhdumpshhhhh**
ROFLSHNEMB!!!
TAV: Sayjo's good too but we'll probably end up with something simple and dull like Sacob. I want them both to have bodies, Sacob and Flocke, because it would balanced, symmetrical (ok, so my screen name should be Mr. Monk). Also it would add nuance and interest to this battle between them. But TPTB probably won't make it clear to us, at least not at first.
RE: The Incident -
So the episode with the bomb going off at the end was called The Incident, right? The blast door map also referred to The Incident. So how would the bomb going off create an incident that would then be recorded in the supposedly unchanged reality on the island (Timeline A)? And if it is the same incident, what did it actually do in the on island reality (Timeline A)?
It would seem then that The Incident did more than create Timeline B.
Someone asked me today if the Lost premiere surprised me. I found myself saying not really. It's not that I had figured out all the details the writers put in, instead I found myself feeling a sense of "Ah yes, this is how it should be," as all kinds of pieces came together. I'm not disappointed in the split timeline because it makes scientific sense, almost. I cannot think of a better way they could have written it. And I do hope, as many here have predicted, that we'll get to see what happens when two split realities crash back into each other.
My favorite theory about Jack bleeding is that he cut himself shaving that morning.
Amy Lynn said: People here are equating Jacob with good way too easily for my tastes.
Agreed. If you go back to their scene on the beach, both men say true things. I'm more inclined to think they represent justice and mercy. Both can serve good ends and both can serve bad ones. I would be hesitant to ascribe simple good vs. bad to Darlton.
So ashes of *what* keep Smokey out? I didn't see them spreading cook fire ashes around. It came from special bags or jars.
maven
Thanks for letting me know about the OLP it didn't show up in my subscription. Is the epi. 3 stuff near the end or throughout the poscast?
SG and Lisa M (from about 200 posts ago)---
The only thing I can think of that parrallels Daniel and Jack's neck wound is that they shared the passion for dropping that bomb... perhaps, if there are 2 timelines or realities...whatever.. in the other one, Daniel did drop the bomb. So... whoever dropped the bomb was the one who got a wounded neck.... ??? (Whatever happened, happened... but it doesn't say to whom?) The mirrored universe thing sounds reasonable to describe the other side of the neck....who knows??
ioioos.... someone ( i'd scroll through to make sure i gave credit where credit was due... but there are 600+ posts!) earlier said that water controlled smokey and that's how the final battle was won...by sinking the island... I thought it was a cool theory that it might be the way the whole thing ends too! We'd have heard it here first!
I totally forgot about Ben's mom appearing to him... how much can a mind hold! You really think it was the smoke monster???
futureself said... Well you could argue Ben was reborn when was (presumably) submerged in the Cocoon style swimming pool as a lad.
Interesting...... and I like it! Even though he did lie.... I still like it!;-)
Its almost Tuesday, right?
More questions (which Mel will say is useless logic)- what is the significance of just the one bottle of vodka for Jack instead of 2? The first thing he does when he gets up on the island after the crash is to take the extra bottle from the plane out of his pocket- that is our first clue that he was on a plane. One bottle just meant to be our first clue that this is not the same flight?
Just thinking... which crash?
You know, Jack told Juliet that she wasn't an other she was 'one of us' because she wanted to go home more than anything else.
By that definition - MIB is 'one of us'. . .
Which really puts into question which one's 'the good guy'.
Or maybe neither one of them's a good guy - just two power hungry fellows fighting each other.
If somebody else already said that, I apologize - I called myself catching up but I may have missed something in the 600 prior posts.
Lisa- in the pilot when Jack first gets up in bamboo jungle he takes the vodka from his pocket. He had one crash, one flash.
memphish said...
Good observation about Fire and Water Lost2010. Only thing it leaves me with is "I'm melting, melting" by Flocke at the end.
Oh no, I didn't think of that - that would be bad - and tie into the whole Wizard of Oz theme on top of it all.
Just thinking- thanks for the clarifiation...I didn't remember it from the 316 "crash" but I miss stuff that the rest of you get all the time! (though, you are right too, Jack got zapped back to the past before the crash... so he only did have one crash... thanks for your patience with a retrospectively dumb question!)
Yeah, lost2010, only his home might be on the planet Tralfamadore for all we know. ;-)
Will said... Does anyone truly exist in linear time anyway?
Scientists, even real ones, have doubts. Some think it's likely that the linear flow of time is a construction of our brain. Actually everything might be happening all at once. It comes out of quantum theory. This has been referenced many times in the Lost universe.
BTW, the realities crashing into one another is not a new concept. I heard it used by an Anglican bishop as an analogy to explain the Biblical apocalypse. The veil between earth and "heaven" thins until heaven bursts through, cauterizing, clarifying, and purifying it of evil, until there is the only one left. It was a beautiful description.
RE: Jack and Desmond - They didn't have to have some deja vu thing because of the timeline split. They met in the stadium when Jack was running stairs, long before the flight.
RE: Ben - kind of a response to futureself - Yes, this story seems all about Ben to me. I bet the final sacrifice is his. I have the same feeling I did at the end of Harry Potter. For me, the whole story is about that non-obvious character that died (name withheld for the sake of those who haven't read it).
AnotherLisa
Welcome to TLC.
Something alot of ys do is copy and paste posts we want to comment on in a word processor page to keep track of who said what.
Yes it is almost Tuesday. :)
I'm going to do better week about posting things all in one post - The trick is to copy past into notepad right? Anyway. . .my one last question -
Did Jack remember Desmond because he remembers the other timeline a little? Or because he remembered him from the stadium where he sprained his ankle?
SG- I actually did that, then deleted it after I thought the convo was over.... live and learn to save!! I thought the underwater island as victory over smokey idea was pretty brilliant---
Ha-- -lost 2010.... we are learning the same lesson about cut and paste (and save)!
@twinkle - Thanks for answering my question about Jack - and before I even asked it (simulpost I guess). lol
Also @ twinkle - Yeah, I doubt he's just trying to get home to Kansas. It seems a bit more sinister than that. :)
Good, non-spoilery comment by Damon in the EW article: God bless the survivors of Oceanic 815, because they’re so self-centered, they thought the only effect [of detonating the bomb] was going to be that their plane never crashes.”But they don’t stop to think, “If we do this in 1977, what else is going to affected by this?”
Here's another one:
...we don’t use the phrase “alternate reality,” because to call one of them an “alternate reality” is to infer that one of them isn’t real, or one of them is real and the other is the alternate to being real.
I scrolled to give credit where credit is due... I thought that whole final underwater defeat of smokey was yours lost2010....(or at least that's where I first read it, apologies to anyone who had it posted before! learning as I go along.....)
;-)
Twinkle said...
Here's another one:
...we don’t use the phrase “alternate reality,” because to call one of them an “alternate reality” is to infer that one of them isn’t real, or one of them is real and the other is the alternate to being real.
Wonder what they call them? The island timeline and the 'what?' timeline? Curiouser and curiouser.
AnotherLisa said...
I scrolled to give credit where credit is due... I thought that whole final underwater defeat of smokey was yours lost2010....(or at least that's where I first read it, apologies to anyone who had it posted before! learning as I go along.....)
;-)
Thanks, if I was first(I don't know whether I was or not). :) I don't know if I was or not. I didn't mean to ignore you. :)
The official term is "sideways." Sideways timeline, flash-sideways.
Although, I dunno, I think I read that in one of Doc Jensen's columns, and he only gets his information from reading spoilers elsewhere.
::eyeroll::
oh.. i didn't think i was being ignored... just felt bad I didn't remember who i talked to! so many good ideas around here - i like stuff even when its proven not to be true, just because it was a cool way of looking at it!
this is almost as fun as the show!
@Lost2010
And of course the interview doesn't say. It does that they've taught the fans patience so while we'll get other answers the relationship between the two timelines will come much more slowly. Duh! If they didn't they wouldn't be Darlton. I think they made it pretty obvious in the premiere that it's THE answer of the season.
Watch out, AnotherLisa! It's addictive! But yeah, this is the best community discussing TV on the web. :-)
Oh, boy, the book police rolled his eyes at me. Nice way to welcome new people, buddy.
The island timeline. . .and the 'coffee' timeline. . .that works for me. :)
Twinkle-
I read and posted a bit during that summer of the Hanso foundation.... I sometimes wonder what happened to that summer? Where did the hours go?
Yet...here I am again....
LOL Twinkle.
Hey, that's interesting about TPTB not using ATL, etc. Yes, what DO they call it/them then?
Weren't we using the term flash-sideways a couple seasons ago? I'm sure that we were, I remember saying it.
Tx for that Biblical apocalypse link Twinkle.
Lost 2010- that's a good point about "going home". But my gut feeling about MIB is that he does stuff that sounds reasonable- but somehow you know he's a bit psycho. Like with Bram & co- well, wasn't he just defending himself? Didn't he give them a chance to go home? But weren't you very afraid after he flung people around for a few minutes?
@ Lisa- I remember in bits and pieces-don't feel bad:)
Right Twinkle, how many hours have we spent at the computer because of Lost?! And it's awful for me, my dinsoaur computer is so frikkin sloooooow, it practically doubles my time looking up stuff. :-p
Don't worry Amy we're always kidding each other here, it pays to have thick skin around these parts. :-)
BTW, OT: does anyone here have any experience with income tax info/law? I've got a pretty serious question to solve. Tx if so.
Holy crap Fringe was amazing tonight! Has anyone noticed how Abrams projects of late have all been very similarly themed? Star Trek see's Spock go back in time to create an alternate timeline, LOST does the same, and Fringe has an alternate universe already existing where $#%t is violently jumping back and forth between the two.
@Sayidsgirl: The first 12-13 min are for the premiere, then maybe 3 min for Ep.3, the reader's questions.
@ Capcom: I don't remember in which of his talks he used it in, but that's a link to pt 1 of a good one that might contain it.
Here's a quote: "[Going to heaven after death] is important, but it's not the end of the world."
Agreed Will, it was great! Yes, quite the quinkiedink about all of Abrams' projects having TT of a sort.
Will: I'm behind on Fringe, but, man, I wish there was a place to talk about that show with you all too.
And V
And Flashforward
And Dollhouse - well I guess that's over now
And whatever new philosophical show they come up with and happen to not cancel.
@Justthinking - My gut instinct is that MIB is bad. . .but I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be good.
Tx Twinkle. :-)
Twinkle, go to Dennis' Fringe blog: http://www.fringetelevision.com/
I used to have a Fringe blog, but between that and Lost, I was living my whole life in front of the computer!
Thanks, Capcom. That's the stuff I miss when I go AWOL for months at a time!
@Lost2010: I think most people fall in with your opinion about MIB.
Interestingly if you look at his conversation with Jacob on the beach, MIB's position is that WE are the evil ones. http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob#On_the_Island_.281800s.29
lost2010said:
Here's another one:
...we don’t use the phrase “alternate reality,” because to call one of them an “alternate reality” is to infer that one of them isn’t real, or one of them is real and the other is the alternate to being real.
Wonder what they call them? The island timeline and the 'what?' timeline? Curiouser and curiouser.
Maybe the reality is a Schrödinger's Cat experiment.
Schrödinger's Cat: A cat, along with a flask containing a poison, is placed in a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead.
The only thing is- we are already invested in the "live" cat I think- same old question- why should I care about this dead cat?
JT
You've got a point there. I think that wh I have mixed feelings a watching two time lines at once this season. At this point I don't care about the LA X time line.
Thanks maven.
Sorry about the typos. My wrist's hurting and my keyboard is acting up.
It should say I think that's why I have mixed feelings about....
It about time for me to sign off for the day anyway. Catch up with you guys tomorrow.
Night all.
Ok I give up!!! I have been tight on time the past few days and have tried very hard to catch up on comments, but I'm worn out, and still haven't read them all! LOL Cheers to you all for having so many great thoughts and theories.
While I'm thinking about it, I want to say "Welcome" to all the new people who've come over from LostARGs and elsewhere.
Since I don't know exactly what ya'll are talking about at the place this comment will land (since I haven't gotten that far yet) so I don't know if this thought will be totally out of place but....Does anyone have an explanation as to why Richard looks all dapper and GQ in the 1950's, in the 1970's in the standoffs with Dharma, and in the 2004-2007 years, but appeared to young Ben looking all ragged, scraggly wearing Temple Other attire? I have not idea if that is significant at all, but it puzzles me.
Second, I get a real reincarnation feel in the flash sideways timeline. Not true reincarnation necessarily (so don't throw things), but when Jacob and MIB are talking at the beginning of the Incident they are Jacob says there's one ending and the rest is progress. I just wonder if the flash-sideways created a sort of reincarnation of our Losties. Each making some kind of progression. Could that be why Jack has that funny deja vu look on his face the whole time? Does he have some sort of past life recollection? Anyway, like I said, I don't think it's pure reincarnation per se, just a reincarnation theme of sorts.
Darn it, wouldn't you know I've got leave the computer again- catching up is so hard to do.... ;)
Hi, Scoutpost: Yep, people always wondered about why GQ Richard goes so scraggly with young Ben...definitely seems like he was living at the Temple in that period. The Others seem to go pretty earthy within the Temple.
Seems in the car on the way home I thought of something else to say or ask, but I've forgotten it now. :(
omg Locos! it's great to see the comments up in the six hundreds again!!
and wow that should teach me to not visit at least once a day...I'm sooo far behind on the comments. But i wanted to check in and say hey...Welcome to all the new faces!
Did anyone else play Lost Bingo? I played all three cards and almost covered two of them but never did get Bingo. Oh well. It was fun, though.
Woohoo! I finally finished! Of course since I live in AZ, by the time I wake up and get on the computer tomorrow, there will probably be a whole other page to catch up with again. meh!
Amused- I did not play, but saw the cards, they were hilarious.
and maybe it's because it's late, but I ROFL'd at JustThinking's:
The only thing is- we are already invested in the "live" cat I think- same old question- why should I care about this dead cat?
alright, I'm off to bed, hopefully will have something more constructive to add tomorrow.
..Yes..I'm glad they tried to clear up the Alternate Timeline bit..By saying both are ..in existence..then It can be understood that the two realities are simply two perspectives of the same event..ie the exterior reality and the internal reality..or..what we see with our eyes and how we process it internally.
Its fascinating..that after 5 seasons of ..Are You Him.. Who am I..Aren't You Him..etc..that MIB is being referred to as HIM. Dogon and the Temple-iestas refer to keeping Him out and Hurley goes on to say, Who? Him! So, thru the ashes we know that HIM is the MIB. We know that HIM is adamant..We know Him doesn't suffer fools.We know Him is short with people who do not agree with Him...We Know HIM does explain, if even abit heavy and convoluted. Point being..if any have read up on the personality of the God Father of Surrealism, Andre Breton..sure does look and feel like the MIB is him..The search for HIM, over the seasons, is over??? No!..cuz Breton always said,,Surrealism wasn't about Him.. it was about the individual people who would be made whole by it. So we have at least one more step, possibily, to take, to meet HIM.
MEL
I understand your point about internal/external MEL, but I don't think that's what they're doing. I think this is 2 distinct external realities.
I'm thinking to make what I'm calling Timeline B, the one where an Oceanic plane with most of our Losties lands in LA, relevant and not the dead cat I too do not care about we may end up finding out what the Losties do in Timeline A is what sinks the Island and leads to Timeline B. The War leads to the destruction of the Island, but once that's accomplished a timeloop restarts somewhere prior to 2004 and then we pick up this iteration (ha, ha a clue from The Pilot) onboard 815Prime. Otherwise I don't care about what might have happened.
Melissa_Lossa and other Dark Tower fans, maybe now I know what the cut on Jack's neck is.
Good Morning All
I'm not invested (yet) in the 815 time line if it is 815. We never hear a flight number for it. I don't care that Locke seeems to have accepted his fate of being in a wheeelchair, that Jack seems to be calmer and more excepting. That Kate is still on the run. That Hurley is happy, but good for him. Charlie's still a druggie. Boone isn't obsessed with Shannon and so on.
I am interested in the island story. What is special about Jack that will probably lead him to be the hero of our story. Why are our Losties special. What will the war entail. Who is Ilana and what will she do now. Who is Richard and why does the MIB want him. What did Sayid sacrafice to be resurrected and so on.
I'm sure the writers will have a plot twist that wiill make me invested in the "new" 815ers but right now I'm not.
That's how I feel too Sayid's Girl. I know they're going to have to tie the two together, I'm a little worried about how they're going to do it without leaving a bad taste in my mouth.
My own theory about merging everything back to one, and apologies if this has already been said, is that we will see the two apparently separate strands converging (using de ja vue, course correction, etc), until they fully merge / integrate back together.
Whether that means we will see events played out multiple times until someone gets everything in the right order I don't know.
morning,
"events playing out multiple times"
sounds like jacob/mib everything before that is just progress
by the way 700+ comments WOW
I liked the official podcast. Interesting that Darlton doesn't want us to use the word "alternate". So it's not the cat situation at all.
Right, it's Separate Realities. Like the book young Ben gave Sayid.
I also found it interesting that the Jimmy Kimmel audience was mad/surprised when they found out that Flocke was Smokey.
I wasn't really saying it was the cat situation. I was just saying it could be a possibllity. That both time lines exist until the "box" is opened then you only have one reality/timeline.
The example being the cat is both dead and alive at the same time until you open the box. Then you get the one reality.
Carlton slipped. I don't think he intended to. Like he said "What do you expect coming to the show."
I'm at least a little invested in the ALT (or whatever we're calling it) timeline because there's still a chance in that one that Sawyer won't end up completely miserable. In that one, he might still have coffee with Juliet and reunite with his little daughter. . .and all those things that seem unlikely if he's going to spend the rest of his life involved in some kind of war with the Others.
And that tides over the romantic side of my brain enough so that I can focus on how very very much I like the way the Island war storyline is shaping up.
My inner sci-fi fanboy can completely enjoy the Island timeline. . .because I dearly love trying to decide whether Jacob or MIB is the good guy and why they're locked in a lifelong struggle.
And my inner Sawyer fangirl can have the 815 storyline to squee about. :)
But then. . .you guys who 'know' me already knew I was wierd like that.
OK, since TPTB don't like ATLs as an explanation, I'm just going to go with 815A and 815B, until they tell us how we're supposed to label them in our brains. I've got to sort things out and differentiate them somehow in my head. I expect that it will require more labels than just two though. :-(
I don't mind 815A or 815B. Or time line A or time line B as long as everyone uses A or B for the same time line. We need to establish if the 815er landing is time line A or B and whether the island is time A or B.
I get confused when someone says A meaning the plane and someone else say A meaning the island.
It will be interesting to find out whether "everything else before is just progress" means that the two timelines are happening at the same time in parallel dimensions, or whether history as we know it repeats until we "get it right". In the second case, I'd wonder which timeline happened "first"?
Based on what "DamCar" (podcast joke) have said, it sounds like they are happening concurrently. Does that mean the Island is a portal into separate realities?
They certainly aren't happening concurrently, which means they are happening at the same time. 2004 and 2007, if those are the years we are working with, are not the same year.
If it is a portal into separate realities, doesn't that sound too much like Fringe ?
@Amy Lynn: I didn't mean concurrently as in exactly the same time. I meant it as in the entire history/reality of the 815 storyline happening in a parallel dimension at the same time as the history/reality of the island storyline. The alternative to that would be that one history of humanity would play out until the "end," then begin all over again, giving humanity the chance to do better the next time. Does that make sense?
If the two threads of story we saw in the episode are concurrent, i.e. both in 2007, then maybe time has been course corrected so all the events that led up to people getting on the plane were delayed by a couple of years.
That doesn't explain why they didn't crash, but it could (sort of) explain the timeline.
Another thought I had about the island being underwater was that in many previous discussions we have talked about the island floating and moving naturally. Perhaps someone pulled the island sized equivalent of the bath plug and it sank that way.
Maybe sinking it is the ultimate failsafe option against power hungry people controlling it, like turning the hatch key or entering 77.
@Erich, yup, makes sense.
I'm wondering if we do know 815B is in 2004? Did anyone catch any clues that would allow us to pinpoint a date?
As for the Fringe model, until the alternate realities start crossing/interacting, I think Fringe is doing it right by not showing us what's happening in the 2nd timeline. That's the problem I'm having right now with 815B, until there's some cross-over it's just a nice alternate story no matter what Darlton wants to call it.
@memphish, no, we don't have any clues to the date, other than if you're going to go by the assumption that Christian Shepard always died in 2004, then it's 2004.
Also, it seems painstakingly obvious now, but whoever programmed the code for Mikhail's computer made quite the catty reference for what numbers to enter to explode the Flame.
@Amy :-)
Well for my purposes, 815A is the first 815 landing, etc.
I got what you meant Erich, I'm feeling it the same way right now. And if the two don't come together or mesh somehow in the end, I'm not caring too much about any of the other ones that won't count, if that's the case. But I think that TPTB will do better than that, as they've said around between S3 and S4, they don't want to mess up the timeline so much that we don't care about what we've seen happen already. So here's hoping that's the case.
And if the Progress thing is something we are to really hang on, then the events that happen in all the "realities" should all be purposeful and substantial, coming together somehow to have an endpoint that wraps up the things that the Losties have been through since 815A island time, etc. I hope.
They haven't revealed the year of the 815 time line yet. Or even if the flight number is 815. I haven't listen to the OLP yet but if Darlton are teasing that they are running concurrently "at the same time." Then maybe there's a choice to be made about which time line/universe they will end up in instead of them converging. Just a thought. :)
To clarify, "first" for 815A, means for me the first one that we saw, cuz who knows which one is first now!
Right SG, if we didn't see any flight number (don't ask me, I don't notice everything until I watch it a hundred times or read about it here!) I guess that we don't know that for sure.
Dang I make a post and there's 5 more to read. lol
capcom
To make sure I'm following you 815A for you goes with what's happening on the island right now with the temple etc right?
@Zort, and it seems right to me that Locke was the one who had to enter the code, seeing as he died before he knew 1977 was going to be a bad year for the Losties. Had Sawyer been the guy at the flame, 77 would have freaked him out a la Hurley and 4815162342.
This separate reality talk is so confusing to me. We do have different times I believe. We're seeing 815 flying and landing in LA in 2004 as planned and we're seeing the island story play out after the Incident (whether it's from Jughead or digging into the EMP) in 2007. Are these 2 realities just showing us different ways the story can go even though they are 3 years apart? It's the time difference that's confusing me.
Perhaps we shouldn't go with 815 A and B...perhaps we should say LAX timeline and island or incident timeline...LAX and ITL? or something other than A and B?
And I'm with Lost2010- I am invested although in different ways to both timelines right now, I think because I just want to see where TPTB are taking them. Could lose interest at any point though I guess if I don't like where they go with it.
@Scoutpost... LAX and Island sounds good to me. Until we know what flight it was, we shouldn't assume it's 815.
So does post 815 on this thread win anything?
And...I guess IMHO that going along for the ride now is what TPTB are intending for us to do. If you read their interview w/Doc Jensen, sounds like they want us to not get too caught up in the how's of the two timelines but to see what is going to happen. Sounds like they are going to resolve it sooner than later and don't want it to be the focus of the whole story. At least that is my take on what they said. Not to say that we shouldn't evaluate it (or won't dissect it, you know how we are) but at this point I don't think we can really say much more than has been said and I think we need to wait to see what comes next before we start writing off their storytelling device of Flash-sideways. There are so many other things that happened in this episode that we have barely even touched on yet.
Thorsten- don't know the last time we made it to 815, but I think there should be a prize...what do you have to offer?! ;)
@Scoutpost, my abhorrence for Doc Jensen's reporting aside, that interview was not the best that they've done. The Jimmy Kimmel one and the podcast are much more informative.
And I am pretty sure that the LOST B timeline is September 22nd, 2004, too. I call this the B timeline, and refer to the main timeline from season 1 to 5 as LOST PRIME.
Plus I think that the unmeddled timeline B is the original,
@Thorsten. Considering the fast and furious rate of posting if anyone can actually plan to get 815 I think at the very least it wins a mighty big cheer!
maven
I look at 815 landing as being after the incident not what's going on, on the island right now. lol
thorsten
Just bragging rights. :)
What about a mighty big beer, Chris!
Okay, we are around 742 now… just about 30 posts remain… but I have to give a speech tonight… I'm actually just writing it to the soundtrack of Legends of the Fall
;))
ChrisL
Believe me there are a few here that try to hit any "numbers" post. :)
Uhh, 70 posts.
Stagefright already got my math skills
;))
Maybe it's just the lucky timeline and the unlucky timeline. . .
In one Hurley is cursed with bad luck - and the plane crashes.
In the other Hurley is the luckiest guy alive - and it doesn't.
I'm only half kidding.
Yeah, maybe it's matter and antimatter.
That's why Smokey can't touch Jacob without exploding himself ;))
It's noon time for me. It usually picks up on posts around this time for about a couple of hours. So it should take to long to get to seventy more posts.
So a different topic. What trials do you think Sayid will have to endure for the gift of being resurrected?
I will PayPal the 815 poster $15 for a mighty big beer. How's that for incentive!
Great, Chris, now that you know that I'll miss it you spring the pints!
thorsten
I like matter and anti matter. ;)
ChrisL
I don't drink so I'd have to use the money for something else. :) School's letting out early here because of snow, so I'll have to leave in about 20 minutes. So I probably won't be the 815 post. I'd have to use the iphone and I stink trying to post on that. lol
Yeah that's the problem SG, there are so many things going on, there's got to be more than just two definers. For me, 815A would be like you said, everything that happened to the Losties after the first crash that we saw. but then there are so many ways that 815A veers off, there needs to be extra definers, like the ones Thorsten mentioned. I really wish that TPTB would give us a map legend to go by for the story now, we could sure use it.
Heheh, Lucky Time and Unlucky Time, that's neat Lost2010. X-D
Jacob will make Sayid ageless like Richard and send him back to prechristian Egypt. He has to live through the ages and will arrive in 2007 as a saint.
Thorsten - it'll be at 815 in a very very short time. Good luck with the speech, what's it on? Time travel? Alternate Realities, multiple parallel universes? WHH?
It's not unusual to have 1000+ posts on a really good episode. 500-600 is average.
So....Lost Prime (which I like a lot) and LAX timeline? uh...I don't know! whatever. ;)
Yeah, so how about all my other non-timeline questions? Here are some:
What exactly does Jacob's touch mean? And why did he not touch Sayid and Hurley until after they had been to the island? And, if Jacob is so "good" (which I know we haven't settled on yet) but then why did he basically cause Nadia's death by distraction? Or maybe he didn't?
Yeah- what IS up with resurrected Sayid?
Do you all think Abaddon was MIB off island?
And why the heck is Hurley wearing a red t-shirt? Doesn't he know that red is the kiss of death? Somebody give him his I <3 Shih Tsu's tshirt!
It will be Lost in 8 Minutes, Chris… with sockpuppets!
Yea! sockpuppets!
Ahhh Thorsten, your little hands will be going crazy! ;-)
Okay, Scoutpost…
are you sure that all of Jacobs touches happened in the same timeline?
You know Chris, I have a twisted mind!
Right SG, and before we usually created a new secondary post after it got into the 400s. Now that Blogger creates new pages after every 200, the load lag isn't as bad as it was before that.
Good luck to those trying for Comment 815! I'm helping you get closer by making this comment.
I think Abbadon was Abbadon…
Seems like Smokey can't leave the island, heck, he can't even lift himself over a sonic fence ;))
Yeah, it's pretty clear to me that Smokey's been stuck on the island for a LONG time.
Makes sense. The Island has no Applestore.
I would be pissed too!
Thorsten & Amy Lynn- you almost make me feel sorry for poor ole Smokey!
Just doin' my part to get us to 815....
Oh..has anyone figured out what the whispers were saying in the Temple when Kate and Jack et al were taken by the Others? Usually someone somewhere has that figured out by now, but haven't heard anything.
Still the burning question: Where is HOME for MIB?
Where his heart is, Maven!
;)))
I typed this long post and it didn't go through. lol
I'll retype when I get home.
42 to go!
Sayid'sgirl, you guys really break 1000 on a post?! Wow, we didn't even manage that on the best of print drop days! You'll understand then why it's exciting to us to see the 815 point passed...
SG, always do a "swipe", right click, and copy, of any long posts that you write just in case Blogger eats them. Then you can just paste back it in and try again. :-)
Chris, on the really freaky episodes we'd get up to the 400s in the first night and next day!
That's awesome Capcom. it's taking some getting used to though trying to keep up! And these are not all short posts by any means. Thoughtful and exploratory and requiring some time to absorb in many cases. This is going to make quite a historical LOST watchers document!
I like your new avatar, Capcom…
I was just thinking that very thing Thorsten.
Ok what I'd posted earlier that didn't got through.
lol at maven for helping us to get to 815 posts.
scoutpost
Hurley's worn red before as well as Jack and some others.
Thorsten
I've felt that some of Jacob's touches were in different times. Like with Locke when he said I'm sorry you had to go through this. That seemed to be in the future to me.
Now to catch up on posts again.
And I'm going to miss the 815! An hours drive home now. Looking forward to congratulating you on the other side whoever you will be!
Drive safe, Chris!
Hey Locos!
I haven't listened to the OLP yet, but too bad if Damon doesn't like Darlton, I think I am going to continue to use it. Lindecuse is harder to type and doesn't roll of the tongue. It's not about quantity but quality.
It's interesting that TPTB prefer not to use the term "alternate". I like the term "sideways" even less -- it implies that the ATL is a branch of our LOST-Prime, which I don't think it is necessarily. Parallel universe/timeline (PTL) is probably most appropriate, but I am actually just fine with ATL. TPTB have spent 5 seasons in LOST-prime, so of course we are more invested in it. I see the 2 timelines as parallel strings/paths through spacetime, and the term "alternate" to me doesn't change that. Even using A/B seems to designate one of the 2 as secondary. Maybe we should just call the ATl/PTL/B-timeline SNARF!
As to the "when" of the ATL and whether it's even ALT-O815, the truth is I don't think we have these details. I'll have to RW and listen to ALT-Seth Norris's announcement (but I didn't think I heard the flight # in it). I have heard that you can see a partial date on ALT-Sayid's passport.
I would have some trouble seeing the actual physical merging of the 2 timelines (again beyond a mobius strip type relationship), but can see the communication of memories/thoughts, etc.
Scoutpost -- you could choose to see Jacob causing Nadia's death by distracting Sayid, OR see Jacob as having saved Sayid from death/injury by distracting him instead.
Thorsten, you're idea of Jacob having visited some ALT-LOSTies instead of LOSTies is interesting, I'll have to think about that. The one visit we can reasonable say was in LOST-Prime was Hurley (since he references it when talking with dead Jacob.)
I am sure there have been a bunch more posts by now, so I'll stop. I can throw in a quick LOST interpretive dance for post 815. :)
The problem with using the word alternative is it implies that both storylines aren't true, which isn't the case. They've been very clear that both storylines are happening.
About the whispers you mentioned, Scoutpost, will look into that later tonight!
Totally yes for the dance, Ob.
In any timeline!
Now I got a conflicting post window. lol
Try again.
Capcom
I was posting on my phone. I know better. I could have typed it on my note pad and copied it to comments. I never thought of that. I've only had since Christmas so I'm still learning. :)
ATL, from a TT/multiple worlds standpoint in no way implies both timelines cannot exist nor does it imply that one is "true" while the other is not. Both exist, so both are true.
About Jacob saving Sayid… He was not intrested in saving Nadia. Either because he is a greek god from the Olymp who does care only for certain mortals, or because he needed Sayid so wounded that he would willingly became Bens killing machine…
I have some stuff I have to get done, so I'll probably miss post815 as well. Then will probably have to catch up an many more comments. I guess the interpretive dance will have to come later, oh well!
Alternative, by definition, means you can choose one or the other to be true.
FWIW, here's Sayid's passport, stating he is now from Iran, not Iraq. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/S2mMZqy8sBI/AAAAAAAAxiI/9dI_VivojxU/s1600-h/1431380_snapshot20100203074338+copy.jpg
Ob said...
ATL, from a TT/multiple worlds standpoint in no way implies both timelines cannot exist nor does it imply that one is "true" while the other is not. Both exist, so both are true.
I completely agree with this Ob.
Thanks Amy Lynn I haven't gotten around to looking at screencaps. I had heard on a podcast that his passport was from Iran.
Yes, both timelines are real… the kicker will be how they converge after Jack healed John!
OK sure, I agree too, if you want to change the definition of the word, then sure, it can mean what you think it means.
@SG- I hope you're right about Hurley's red shirt, but I have a feeling that, if the timelines converge eventually, which I think they will, that in order to do so, we may see a lot of characters buy the farm. (which they can all live on in yet another alternate reality)
Even though I agree with Ob's definition of both time lines being true doesn't mean I don't think there's a choice.
Free will and choice is what Lost is about.
I could be wrong. But at this point I don't believe the time lines will converge. It's going to be a choice between the two. And Jack will be the one to make the choice.
It will be fine Scoutpost!
No one will touch Hurley.
Tx Thorsten. :-)
Safe drive home Chris.
Maybe we should use the military term SNAFU. That seems to fit how it makes me feel. X-)
Interesting find Amy.
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