This description says it all:
The sixth and final season begins in the aftermath of the H-bomb detonation, as the survivors learn "when" they are.
Here we go......
Tuesday, February 02, 2010
LA X - Season 6, Episode 1
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1,212 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 1212 Newer› Newest»I love the idea of wounds from the original timeline pushing their way through to the sideways timeline--a cut for Jack to heal, an incapacitating blow to the head of Agent Mars. There's a pop culture parallel in my brain somewhere, but it's just not coming to me.
memphish
In my mind the bomb was detonated in timeline B and the key for Daniel was destroying the Swan station so 815 wouldn't crash. Which is what happened. They're all on the plane and landing in LA like Daniel said in that timeline.
But the detonation caused a time jump which sent Jack and the rest into the future of the island.
Memphish- I am very sure the writers are aware of fan concern that a reset/alt timeline is irrelevant - and that is where faith in them is everything I guess!
So Sayid's Girl you think there was a timeflash and Juliet moved in time and like 1 second later the bomb went off sinking the Island? Just trying to pin your idea down.
And here's another problem for me. I need it to be the bomb or something they did to create Timeline B. It can't just exist because if it just exists there's also Timeline C, Timeline D, ad infinitum (inserting Others Latin here.)
JT I agree I need to have faith and as I think I said I did enjoy it as it occurred the problem is in reflection. I can't wrap my mind, yet, around accepting both The Pilot, part 1 and LA X as existing in anyone's universe but my own as an outside observer. Yes they are demonstrating that there were consequences to Daniel's plan (see Darlton at EW.com), but to the extent that those who executed the plan have no idea that those consequences occurred, well it's kind of like a tree falling in the woods.
@Dennis said I took it to mean that Jack could go ahead and have the funeral and not worry about the actual body being there.
Yeah, I figured that's what Locke meant, I was wondering what the writers meant.
Hello! Allow me to introduce myself. I go by MEL..which are my initials,,and use the nome de plume of " mungonna" here, at LOSTARGS and for a long time, at abc.com. I've been asked to start posting here because LOST ARGS is soon to fold since the ARG is nearing the end of its natural life...Howdy!
True, I haven't read thru all the posts yet but..some thoughts I have on Last Nites 2 episode opener follow. Perhaps my perspective on LOST will be made obvious. The following is basically cut from a word document and pasted on various mentioned websites.
Andre Breton ‘s perception of, a human being's existence is dual, that a human being lives in two realities simultaneously has always been a presented thematic motif of Lost.
These two realities are the world around you, the external world, the physical world and the other reality of Man being the internal world, the place of dreams, subconscious, memories, Id, Ego etc etc.
Season 6 appears to be bringing these two realities closer together . In the past seasons, flashbacks and flash forwards kept the battle lines distant. The conflict between the two realities took their toll as a result of a engagement of opposites in the fog shrouded trenches of the abstract Adrienne . Now, with season 6, the “ flash”
is neither forward nor back,but.. is transitive in the space realm of Exterior reality to interior reality. We are Flashing at the same time but thru the space of the two realities of Man..
Of course the question of Who,is some what mystical. What we are presented is existence as seen or experienced by Who? Early Lost had the question , “ Are You Him?” Middle Lost had the question, “ Who Am I?”. Later Lost had shift to, “ Aren’t You Him?” So , “ Him” a non definitive pronoun, as a Mystery, remains but appears to be settling down, a lot less radical in his conflicted shifts of flashes. Perhaps as Juliet eventually communicated , “ It Worked." I wonder if “ Abilify” had anything to do with it...? Seriously tho,,as serious as I can get presently anyway, the perception of..that everything we see in the presented Lost,,is really or existence, as experienced by a human being ,,the camera lens is the Eye of the Mystical Him , seems to becoming easier to perceive. The opening sequence of epi 1 season 6 heavily suggests the simultaneous , dual, existence. The external world of the plane, and the internal world ,,way below, submerged in the murky waters of subconscious, dreams, etc etc...Fascinating how the “ exaggerated” and distorted attributes of the Island reality grips us , brings us to our personal “ Feel” in its extremeness.. Maybe there is the answer to the question of the Mystical Him...?
Interestingly tho..by the near end of epi 2..did not you, the viewer, have a “ feel” as Jack extended himself to the man in the wheel chair? Again, the viewer is being asked to do the Flash,, the viewer is asked to walk the bridge between the two realities presented. Like the MIB Locke put it,,” I want To Go Home!”
There is some distance still between the presented,,and “ Home”. The Books of Lost are presented to help us in the trek. So, it was Kierkegaard Des was reading. That's even better than I supposed. Kierkegaard’s perception of “ wholeness” of a Life being suggested, or the pursuit of a Whole life fits well with the Surreal belief of the Hope of Mankind is in the Unification of the Two realities conflicting Man. Season 6 appears to be traveling that path. With each step, each episode, we seem to be getting closer to Home.
MEL
memphish
When Juliet detonated the bomb the reset worked for that timeline, and I assume sank the island.
At the same time it also caused a time jump on the island sending them into the future on the island.
I understand what you’re saying about possible multiple timelines, which is a possibility. But I look at it as the timeline that the bomb was detonated in has been “fixed” and is now going along as it was suppose to. I’m probably wrong but that’s how I look at it.
OK, so I was thinking...
When Locke and Ben go to the cabin to see Jacob and Locke hears Jacob say "Help me", if the cabin kept Smokey/MIB in, could it have been Smokey/MIB saying "Help me"? I can't recall but does the screencap from that episode look more like Jacob or MIB?
ib4uc, yes, it was Esau who said, "Help me". As far as we know/has been speculated, Jacob had been keeping Esau in the cabin, trapped by the circle of ash, since um, well, since a long time.
But we learned last night that ash keeps Smokey out not in.
We didn't learn that at all. We just learned he can't cross the ash without manipulating something.
I am in the corner that it is MIB/Esau who was in the cabin squeaking "help me." Perhaps he already had some knowledge of Locke and felt he would be easily manipulated.
Did Ben know that? Is that why he took him to the cabin, not to see Jacob but to have MIB see Locke?
@Eugene, I would be unpleasantly surprised if that were the case. Ben's arc has pretty much led to us to the knowledge that he was duped by both Jacob and MIB his whole life. His protector, of course, being Richard.
Well the Temple guy said it's to keep him out, so I'm going with that. Besides we saw Smokey take out the pilot and meet with Locke and Eko and Juliet and Kate all while I presume the ash circle was intact.
So was Dharma's Sonic Fence ash for the ears or just a nice coincidence in terms of keeping Smokey at bay? Also did the Others actually know what they were keeping at bay or only a few insider Others? Remember Juliet and Kate at the fence in Left Behind, Juliet said she didn't know what it was, but is that accurate? That was back in my Juilet-bashing days.
Yeah. I can't really wrap my head around how Ben could not realize at some point that the times he went to the cabin he was talking to Esau not Ben. Of course, he never saw any physical manifestations of either, so it's possible.
Man, I just get caught up on the comments and I have to leave. My head is about to burst!
Well the Temple guy said it's to keep him out, so I'm going with that.
Um, you haven't been watching LOST very long, have you? LOL. You don't even know the character's name, and you're taking his word as truth?
Amy Lynn
I don't think you meant it too because of the lol but that seemed a little rude to me. I've been watching Lost since day one but I don't know the character's name either.
I don't read casting news I consider that a spoiler. And I rarely read the credits.
Why do you think the character would lie?
SG, I didn't mean you, I meant memphish. :)
I know you meant memephish.
But I agree with what she said. And I don't know the temple guys name either.
Do have a reason why you think he might lie? Is it because Lost is ambiguous in general.
I only know his name b/c I looked it up on Lostpedia this morning, but I'm not even saying he lied. I'm just saying just because you have one piece of intel, it doesn't mean you know the whole situation.
Ok, caught up. My head hurts but I caught up.
Very interesting theories going on here, a lot of what was going on in my head and some extra bits I never considered.
I believe the fear that Richard showed to Flocke is definitely an indication that what ever he/it is, once had Richard as a slave before Jacob freed him and made him immortal.
Now my question is, is MIB going to stay in the form as Locke, now that he has been discovered? And why didn't he take the form of Jacob once he was dead. Surely that would be easier to get yourself back home, right?
Another thing, the Dharma translator, did anyone else that watched Eastbound & Down find him distracting? For some reason I couldn't take his seriousness, well, serious.
SPiN video guy was amazing though, I even like the reason he didn't speak English.
Loads of other thoughts too, but i'm going with the flashback is the reality where they blew up the Swan in 77. It's got to be, otherwise, there are so many decisions made that there has to be a reason they chose this split off reality.
And I did shout shut up Kate, when Jack was giving CPR to Sayid. Do they not remember what happened with Charlie? She is wrong. A lot!
And Amy Lynn, a long-time resident of this site would know that proper names are hardly guaranteed to stick, especially when they haven't been established on-screen. How long did we still call Ben "Henry," or "Benry," or whatever?
Calling out tenure is guaranteed to raise hackles, however.
Um, @"thebookpolice". I wasn't calling anyone out, I was just saying just because the ash keeps the dude out doesn't mean it doesn't also keep him in.
Hey LoCos!
I'm back after catching up on all of the comments since after the premier. I like to watch LOST and let my own LOST thoughts and theories gel before I check out too many comments, and because of this don't read blogs or listen to podcasts until a bit later in the week.
I have to tell you too, that despite what we've seen I remain a WHHer (at least as far as LOST is concerned.) So then why are we even being shown an ATL? I'd speculate first, that because it's interesting and a bit different way for TPTB to let our LOSTies stories unfold. And second, that it's to show us that simply having O815 not crash doesn't eliminate the problems our LOSTies had preO815, and successfully changing the past (so that the Island doesn't "exist") has more far reaching consequences than preventing the O815 crash, and on more than just our LOSTies.
So then what is this ATL? I doubt TPTB would just make it a dream in a LOSTies time-flash addled brain. It is possible that this non-O815-crash ATL is intended to be the result of our TTing LOSTies actually "changing" the past, but with my feet entrenched in the WHH camp, I can't quite put stock in this yet.
At this point, I think the ATL is a similar but separate one (at least physically) to our "usual" timeline, and that while our ALT-LOSTies will interact and work together, their lives may in many ways be worse than our counterpart LOSTies lives. Since Des is special, there may be some flashes/communications/memories between Des and ALT-Des, and possibly more ALT-LOSTies will have deja vu, as ALTJack did, which could help the ALT-LOSTies, but I'm not yet sure how it could help our LOSTies.
Anyway, the "manipulation of surroundings" idea for Smokey to defeat the ash circle got my brain a-whirring.
Smokey: trapped in cabin by virtue of ash.
Cabin: known to change location on Island.
Island: also known to change location.
What if the Island hopping around in time was the outward manifestation of the cabin basically turning on warp drive; that is, making the Island move around it. Were the flashes a symptom of Smokey trying to hide in spacetime?
I noticed one thing.
When we see the "underwater" moments of getting close to the foot.
When you see the shark, looking right, you find what i think is the Ankh of the statue. It's roundy top and one of its two "arms" are visible.
The round top can be seen from the foot point of view, too.
That's me watched and in awe of that opener and what's to come. OMG!
Now to try to get through your 424 comments and hopefully return with some sense.
Alternatively, as it's late, go to sleep and catch up tomorrow.
My heart is still pounding though from the thrill of that opener.
Amy, I am only advising against comments like "You haven't been watching LOST for very long, have you?" memphish is a seasoned veteran of LOST-watching, and knows when to speculate and when to roll with it.
@thebookpolice, well, fine. But for someone who supposedly has been watching since Day 1, it shows an astounding lack of insight to take anything verbatim as truth.
of course the ash keeps smokey in AND out Oo it just depends on which side he is.
@MadHatter, yes, that's what I was saying. LOL.
Anyway, TERRY O'QUINN is an amazing actor.
In this premiere he spoke the lines that are surely the most important.
The one speaking about where really is Christian, and the one about John Locke's last thought.
Amazing.
In case anyone hasn't suggested it: Sayjo.
Be back after catching up.
I'm reading that I caused some Lisa confusion... earlier as someone already was here by that name! so sorry! As soon as I figure out how to--- I will also choose an alternate name!
ObFuSc8, I'd put money that Yemi/Christian were Jacob, and not Esau.
..I don't believe its a alternate Timeline. Its a Dual Reality at the same Time. The Two realities presented were made clear at the opening of epi 1. Jack's view of the External world,, the plane and passengers around him,,and his traveling amongst the clouds,,wool gathering in the clouds,, his traveling amongst his Internal reality, the Island reality.
Fascinating comparison that even Ob8 and Martyn can relate to...Sawyer saying,," I will not kill him because he deserves to suffer on this rock like the rest of us.." and then the segue to..Jack dealing with the inexplicable lost coffin,,talk about suffering,,and " rock" comes across as earth, rather much bigger than the Island. So, again,,we are flashing thru the external and internal " space" of a Man..rather than thru Time. The brilliance of TPTB continues to astound me.
MEL
The 2007 timeline is the one that always existed in Lost seasons 1 to five. The new Timeline was created by Juliet blowing up Jugheads core. This resulted in the split universes. After Jughead went off in 1977 the DI built the finished the Swan and constructed the 108 timer plus the failsafe key. Everything happened as seen since the Pilot.
Timeline B was created by Dharma drilling into the pocket, creating an Incident unchecked by the tiny fission blast from Jugheads core. The Island was submerged following the outburst of the exotic energy. No Hatch, no Desmond down there. The lifes of everybody changed. Hurley in luck, and Kate killing her fathers apprentice by accident. No Daniel Faraday meddling with constants and variables, etc.
We see that Bram and the TempleOthers use unbroken circles of ash to keep MIB/Smokey out of an area he has not yet entered. It's possible that a similar circle could bind Smokey within, though you'd first have to fast enough to distract and trap him within.
We first see Jacob's Cabin in TMBTC, and I thought we saw Ben avoid the ash circle then. I will have to go back and look to see what the status of the ash circle was in Cabin Fever, but by the time Ilana and co get to the Cabin, the circle of ash is broken. So who broke the circle and when?
We have seen Smokey around the Island, both in his smoke form and taking on the appearance of Yemi (and Christian) in 2004, so the ash circle really wasn't keeping him in the Cabin. But given that MIB/Smokey needed a loophole just to kill Jacob, I'd wonder who exactly was being protected inside the Cabin?
Sorry, erased my last comment by mistake so reposted above.
Thorsten, while I certainly see that as a possibilty, I still have trouble taking full stock in it because of WHH within LOST.
It's the same way Star Trek handled TT last year, Ob. You create a situation which results in the spawning of a new timeline, but the old universe continues to exist next to it. Nero attacked the Kelvin and killed Kirks father, which created a new reality, in which Kirk is a troubled fatherless boy that enters starfleet much later. And Spock Prime had no chance to return to his home universe, he was stuck in the new timeline.
thorsten, I totally get that from a multiverse model. As I said, it's because of WHH that I have trouble putting stock in that multiverse explanation for LOST (although to be super nitpicky WHH still would hold within the usual/2007 timeline).
Sure Ob, in the Prime Timeline everything is WHH…
we had countless discussions over at Trek last year with Bob Orci about the devaluation of peoples DVD collections by introducing the New Kirk, the New Enterprise, Simon Pegg as the new Scotty etc.
But they are untouched. The whole Trekverse still exists. It is just that Nimoy Spock left it.
Damon said on the red carpet last may he would never do TT again ;))
So Lost Prime is strict WHH. We know that the writers follow the rules of quantum mechanics. This leads me to the assumption that the two Timelines will converge into the most propaple one in a couple of weeks ;))
Amy Lynn -- Yemi appeared to Eko and tells him he must confess. Eko refuses and this is when we hear "Yemi" say "You speak to me as if I were your brother". Then Eko asks, "Who are you?" and "Yemi" goes back inot the jungle and it's right after this that Smokey kills Eko.
Are you saying that Yemi was Jacob, but SMokey killed Eko right after? That seems unlikely, and there was a podcast that discussed Yemi=Smokey.
Smokey is a really shy guy, he never changes in front of the camera!
..Consider the consequences of trying to understand with logic and reason, a show that is not logical and without reason? Did not Faraday come to the realization of that folly when he realized that the Human Element was the missing element in all his Logical equations trying to explain TT mumbo jumbo? Point being..using logic and reason keeps the viewer inside a box of understanding and perception. Season 6,,the path to " Home" is steps taken into terra incognito,,as if all of LOST hasn't been. So the frustrations and dead ends are what you get with Logic and Reason. Those Tools are square pegs in a round hole.
MIB is dominant over even Smokie. As a spirit, MIB is the round peg in round hole. My above paragraph may come across as an admonishment, but its quite similar to MIB Locke's line in epi 2..I am disappointed in You!"..I'm not disappointed in anybody..I am drawing attention to the perception that LOST is all about US..the viewer..modern mankind. And yes..getting outside the box of logic and reason..can make anyone more fulfilled, more of a human being,thus bringing them a step closer to Home. The " Spirit" of Mankind is greater than the tools we use.
MEL
Amy Lynn since no one on LOST has said it, truth teller or otherwise, what makes you so convinced that ash can keep Smokey in?
As I posted before the last exchange, what the Temple guy said was not the only piece of information regarding out vs. in. If you're assuming he's containable because of the circle around the cabin, how do you explain his encounter with Juliet and Kate within days of Locke and Ben's visit to the cabin? The only thing we've seen so far, and been told, is that ash keeps him out. We've never seen or been told it keeps him in.
but it keeps him in......in is the same like out, it just depends where you are standing.
the Temple Guy only said "Its not to keep YOU in, its to keep HIM out" Nothing about that you cant keep smokey in.
Desmond sits next to Jack and reads Haroun and the Sea of Stories. The place where a lot of the action happens in that book is called Kahani, controlled by "Processes Too Complicated To Explain". Kahani consists of a massive Ocean which is composed from an infinity of stories, each story taking the form of a single current or stream.
TT and Multiverses in their quantum states.
No frustrations and dead ends.
Do we know there is only one smoke monster? No.
Thorsten -- I like the phrase LOST prime! I will have to see how this plays out and convince myself that WHH strictly within LOST prime is enough. (I have no trouble with the multiverse construct outside the boundaries of LOST.)
I guess I could see the ATL's course converge towards LOST prime in some respects, but would have difficulty seeing how TPTB would explain an actual merge -- except for some mobius strip type explanation where ALT-LOSTies somehow go back to stop the Island's "sinking". Though whether that would crate a mobius strip type relationship between LOST prime and ATL, or simply create yet another ATL is debatable.
Big Dog and Memphish- I love the hopeless romantic twist... perhaps Juliet and Sawyer DO meet for coffee shop and go dutch!
Is the piece of the tapestry that Flocke cut off and wiped the knife on, the same as the one knifed to Jacobs cabin when Illana goes in? If so...what does that do to any "timeline?"
I'm stuck on the comparison of Daniel' neck wound to Jacks. In one timeline Daniel drops the bomb and has the neck wound. In the other, Jack. There seem to be too many scenes of "deja vu" where only the characters have changed (ex. the names have been changed to protect the innocent!) A few have mentioned the deja vu with Charlie CPR/Sayid...I was waiting for the big final shot at Sayid's chest!
I can't get the ATLs... too much for my brain, but I do get the course correcting and think we'll see loads of it!
I wasn't a huge poster during the Hanso ARG summer, so I'd not expect anyone to remember me, but it is nice to recognize so many names here- still great ideas! And you guys see stuff I can't even see in the re-watch! It's a great enhancement to the show (though contributes to sleepless night!)
PS. Changed my screen-name- sorry to the original Lisa!
hugs ObFuSc8 over the rifts of time and space!
Amy Lynn -- then are you saying you think Jacob was that version of Smokey that killed Eko?
Hugs right back Thorsten!
ObFuSc8, not sure if that's what I'm saying, but maybe. :D People here are equating Jacob with good way too easily for my tastes.
I agree with MadHatter that the ash is a line MIB cannot cross, no matter what side he/it is on.
AnotherLisa -- I think they are 2 different tapestries. The one Flocke wipes the knife on has red bckgnd/black symbols and the piece in the Cabin was white bckgnd/black symbols. There are supposed to be pics of the red tapestry online which I have avoided because of spoilers.
Has anybody considered ash as metaphor? I mean..its lite weight..easily blown away by a wind,,the left over of a burned out..associated with recycled,,the remains of..So,,perhaps MIB is kept at bay,,by the remains of..left overs of a burned out..? Ashes represent the remains of what was once,,holding on to something that's time has come and gone..naturally of course.
MIB,,the Spirit of the MIB is kept at bay..the Change, the stepping outside of the Box..is kept at bay,,by a liberal dose of holding on to that which once was...the ashes.The question, Who was in the Cabin, has the same answer as Jack's question in season 3,," Who Am I ?"
MEL
Thanks Ob8--- I do think I can recall that detail now.
I also wondered a bit about Jacob not being so easily "good"--- but I think I've come down on the side of-- evil people never see good as good (or good for them). Ex. Anarchists never see rules as good/healthy for society...etc... doesn't mean that by in large many of them have merit and preserve order...something like that... and whether we think in terms of Christianity, or some of the mythology that I don't understand as well, but know is related.... there's always a rebel that finds a way to call good evil for his own selfish purposes... which seemed to be what Flocke was exploiting in Locke....???? Thoughts... just thoughts...
Amy Lynn -- I never said anything about good/bad.
While in theory an ash circle could keep Smokey inside -- you'd have to be fast enough to encircle him first, or keep him distracted long enough to do it.
Sorry, correction. Flocke exploited Locke's faith and good, and played on his selfishness for meaning and purpose, and need for answers/knowledge and was able to find those things for evil purposes
Someone proposed that MIB/Smokey was using the last body he found.... given the theories about Sayid/Jacob (not even guessing at the voted upon name!)--- do we have to wonder if we've not seen Jacob in other bodies? ( I know, the enhanced last season finale said we did hadn't seen him yet... so I guess I take that at its word for now...)
Good or evil aside, these guys play a game. We know the stakes now, going home for the winner. Richards reaction proved the same stuff happened in the 1850 with the Black Rock. Jacobs opponent, and I am sure we will hear his real name soon, was looking into Eko as a sleeve for his big loophole plan, but Eko was too strong. So he killed him and used Locke.
Ah, thorsten, the voice of sanity.
I think Esau's real name is Horatio.
thor..it was suggested last nite by Jimmy Kimmel, that the book Des was reading was a work of Kierkegaard and Darlton never objected, and as a matter of fact ,,suggested for the Lost Geek..to read up on all the books of LOST for a deeper and broader understanding of LOST. So,,since Kierkegaard was of 1800's,,am I too assuming he wasn't the author of anything quantum? But I agree,, an Ocean made up of many many stories is a good metaphor for Life and Humanity..so in essence,, you and and I are in agreement..There are very few questions when this show is perceived differently.
MEL
I agree with what Thorsten posted. Except that Jacob does not seem to want to leave the Island.
MEL -- JKL were talking about the book in Montand's backpack.
I menat to type -- on JKL they were talking...
Amy Lynn -- I'd heard that they want to cal him Snookey.
Good point, ObFuSc8. What does Jacob want?
And what place could be Smokeys home?
Egypt, hell, or Andromeda?
Here is the book, MEL…
http://thorstenwulff.com/haroun.jpg
Jorge is podcasting Haven't listened yet, so I cannot vouch for spoiler-freedom.
@AnotherLisa...yes the subjectivity of what is good and what is bad ..or the subjectivity of what is Existence has been at play all along.
The Key seems to me to be..in accepting that Subjectivity. So..if life is Subjective, then where is Truth?, where is ones Objectiveness? Lost is that search for that answer. Its being strongly suggested,,that the answer is in the Hope of a Unified Man..not in a conflicted man, torn apart by all the illusional opposites presented as Real.
Ha ha Thorsten, I wish I knew what Jacob wants! He obviously does not want MIB/Smokey to succeed and talked to Ben about choice before he was stabbed, but the specifics beyond that, don't know. Despite knowing MIB/Smokey wants him dead, Jacob hasn't seemed to want to kill MIB/Smokey (at least not yet).
Smokey's home, hmmm...maybe a fractal dimension of Bizarro world? No clue there either.
If Jacob is dead, technically, he can't want anything, anymore.
Yes, Amy, but Dead is not Dead!
;))
First time post here, used to post over at LOSTARGS. Hi you all everybody! Awesome theories happening.
I keep thinking about Sliding Doors. Two different realities or timelines or "what if's" being shown to us at the same time. The new timeline is just "what if" the H bomb plan worked & 815 never crashed because there was never a Swan station w/Des, yada yada yada. Juliet talking about coffee & going dutch & the telling Miles it worked. My current theory is everyone has to die to get back to the other "reality" Just like in Sliding Doors. They don't really converge. But maybe they will...I really don't know;p
Hi Ginger, have a look at this…
Many-worlds interpretation
Sorry if this doesn’t make sense, it’s late and I know I’m rambling….
I am with Mel on the psychoanalytical view of Lost being reflective and subjective. The submerged Island is beneath the surface in 815b, hidden but there, like Widmore’s faked 815 wreckage, waiting to be discovered. One drowns Faraday in sorrow, the other (perhaps) seeps from Jack’s neck wound.
For some reason I was reminded of the game rock, paper, scissors:
Nikki’s obsession with the diamonds in S2, things created by centuries of rock applying pressure on rock, she is buried in the sand, created by centuries of water applying pressure on the rocks she so loved.
The Island itself covered by trees…the wood carved into Anks…made into those pieces of paper with Jacob’s lists…building shelter, cabins...destroyed by fire and turned into ash.
Human bodies, flesh and bones destroyed by dynamite, crushed, pierced, drowned and set alight.
Metal being torn out of the sky…pulled through skulls…wrapped around and crushing limbs.
But rock, paper, scissors is an endless circle of one beating the other; pointlessly racking up points. This in turn makes me think of Tic, Tack, Toe and the film ‘War Games’, in which the super computer is forced into realising, through running countless games of knots and crosses, that nuclear war would result in there being no winners.
But wasn’t that what MIB was talking about in the Incident? ’They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It all ends the same.’ i.e. there are no winners? It’s all tick, tack, toe and rock, paper, scissors?
But the big question that popped up in Ep2 for me was where is MIB/Smokey’s home? Where does he want to go? Jacob wants progress, MIB/E.T. wants to go home. From a psychoanalytical point of view this could be to return to the beginning…pre-consciousness. To be and not to be. Without baggage (knifes and coffin included)…and without the weighty question (and I really like your thoughts on this Mel) ‘who am I?’.
Ginger - i forgot about sliding doors.... just saw it recently for the first time... hmmmmmmm
I am reminded of Jacob's comment--- "It only ends once, everything else is progress." No matter what "everything else" turns out to be.....
Thor..thanks for the link..wow somebody photoshopped that scene into visibility. My TV is much darker. Anyway.. S Rushdie's children's book is a work of magical realism..imho..an modern off shoot of the Surreal...if one is into labeling everything..which I am not. At least Haroun is a tale of the need to be free in ones Imagination..where indeed, anything is possible. Imho,, a very nice connection to LOST.
I think if we take a look at Jacob,,we see he wants nothing. He sits reading a paper while Locke takes a plunge..always arrives after the fact to give solace. To bad he wasn't shown solacing the dead instead of only the living. He is rather blaze'..mundane. Not wanting much. Like the MIB put it..the endless cycle of arrival, conflict, destruction,,seems quite acceptable by Jacob. Jacob comes across as the spirit of the status quo...not wanting.
MEL
Hmmmm. I didn't see the spirit of status quo... I saw a man who already knew the outcome, and knew he'd ultimately have (or had) everything he wanted/needed. No need to panic... can use evil for good... turn the situation around... more confident than blaze...
Interesting though to see the same thing such different ways... that's part of what makes the show so good!
New Fox show "Human Target" has Ethan Rom on it tonight.
Great start; Where are we headed next,and will it be a split decision at the end?
When Jack said to Locke that nothing is irreversible,it sounded like he had been there,done that.
At the beginning I thought we were going to get a bonus episode of SpongeBob Lost.
Whatever his intentions today, we know that Jacob got into trouble earlier in his life…
@another..the " already knew the outcome" aspect of Jacob, was there for me as well. But, that has to include his inevitable demise. He had to know that was coming too. There seemed a subtle hint of that in the original discussion between him and the MIB..and again in Bens words last nite, " why didn't he do anything?"..
MEL
Hi all,
This is my first trip to the lost arg alternative reality!
Loved the premiere. I can only see the alternative lost reality going one of two ways....
Either the alternative time line will be used as a "what could have been" vehicle to bring resolution for the characters and audience.
Or, the new timelime will get forced back on track. The old, destiny will correct itself.
With the latter, the writers haven't got much time, so I'm going with the former.
The sunk island bothered me. If dharma houses are still standing, are we to believe that they have been underwater for 27 years, and that the island sunk without an explosion or eruption to destroy whats on the surface? Seems unlikely.
Isn't it more likely that the waters have risen? Melted polar ice caps following a shift in the earths magnetic fields, caused by the pocket?
And that was Jacks fault again. He sure is having a bad week.
Wonder who the body MIB was in when Jacob and MIB were talking on the beach end of S5? And does Jacob have to inhabit a body?...the one he is in has been used for many years...is he the white smoke Locke saw?
MEL
inevitable and "demise"... perhaps to both ;-)
irreversible and "temporary"... perhaps too... ;-)
(can't rule out that if MIB chooses bodies based on availability... so might Jacob... though I'm not sold on that theory...or any theory!)
dunno....
For all the ARG'ers there is a Leia Bell Love Triangle on Etsy right now.. not sure how it snuck on there, but it looks like its straight from her http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=39899209
For the hopeless romantics. When Juliet is talking about going out for coffee it seems she was consciously time traveling. Sawyer seemed to recognize this. He said Juliet it’s me James. So maybe she had been with him in another time line and that’s why she said it worked.
About Richard in chains- I don't think that means he was a slave necessarily. More likely he ended up imprisoned in the dispute between Jacob and MIB.
I don't get any gut feeling of the meaning of "I am very disappointed in all of you" or thereabouts. What kind of relationship does MIB have with the Others- if that's who he was talking about, that he would have expectations that weren't met?
@ MEL, yes he knew he would have to die (sound familiar?) that's why he touched John after his fall. Why touch someone who is going to be the vehicle for your enemy's loophole? Jacob has a plan. Just don't know what it is yet! It only ends once & he knows the ending?!?!
Have I mentioned I LOVE LOST lately?
@ SG - I also thought about Charlotte talking about Geronimo Jackson during the time flashes. We THOUGHT it was just her losing her mind from the flashes, but maybe it was more! She also said, "This place is death!" Maybe they have to die to get "home". I'm kind of rambling sorry:P
Maven!! Damn. I can't believe how long ago that was, or that I forgot the inconsistency in Locke's original experience with subsequent Monster sightings.
Further random thoughts- was trying to work out why Miles was let into the Temple, as he was not touched by Jacob, not on the "list" most likely. Perhaps because he was born on the island and is of it, so to speak. Also, having that special, probably island related, hearing dead people power-that may have worked for him.
@Ginger..thats an interesting perspective..Jacob having a plan. It suggests that there is a Jacob,,or Spirit of Jacob that is even Greater, more omniscient than the presented Jacob we've seen so far...or..as our understanding of Omniscient grows and changes..so do our Gods that are assigned the ability of Omniscient, grow and change.
The concept of Love also parallels that perception issue. Perhaps the advent of the New Testament demonstrates that very growth,,and change in perceived God.With Jacob having a plan,,is very much like..a God who Loved Mankind so much,,that He would sacrifice His Son. That kind of Love..is touched on with the Kate saving young Ben's life,,with full knowledge of what kind of ..monster, he would grow up to be.
What I am getting at..is perhaps a clue to any Greater plan was right there in the airport,,after John and Jack relate to each other the most frustrating of air travel situations to experience,,they connect and form a human bond. Beauty.
I can see a future here with season 6 LOST..that they all end up together again on mainland this time, bonded to each other. A Greater Plan?
MEL
WHH, had to go look that one up. I'm assuming it means "Whatever happened, happened." But you forget the will of the human spirit. Free will. Except for death and taxes of course. Anyway, I'm kinda looking at the lostiverse as a giant switch board right now, trying to fix it self by rerouting and all that. Using the aforementioned "kill your grandfather" time travel analogy, it looks to me like in triggering the bomb, A-Losties were supposed to die (It's an H-Bomb, hard to take those point blank) but that would mean they never traveled there in the first place to go back in time to cause the H-bomb party from going off. So the universe fixed it by dumping A-Losties back into their own timeline, scalding them for being bad and trying to create paradoxes, and left it at that. Now for the B-losties, as soon as Jughead went off, that new timeline was created. And as we can see by lostiverse course correcting, Universes (or timelines) that have been created don't seem to like to be destroyed and will do anything possible to keep that from happening. A-losties were kicked out for above mentioned reasons, and the B-losties went on their merry ways more or less oblivious to Dharma happy island fun.
Boy, I bet that theory is full of holes, but time travel is a fickle b%$@# and we're making this all up as we go along anyway. Feedback?
let me try that again...
I like Swiss cheese in my sandwich, but not in my food for thought.
Sorry..to me its not alternate Timelines, but it is alternate realities,,as in,,the external world around you and the Internal world inside your brain. The Flash is between these two realities, rather than between Time lines...as in Jack in the Plane and Jack gathering wool in the clouds..So, season 6 is Space Traveling rather than Time traveling. With a little mayo on it, it tastes pretty good. ;)
MEL
Does anyone truly exist in linear time anyway? Alternate realities, alternate time lines, aren't we saying the same thing? Flash sideways instead of flash back/forward. Well, technically, the flash would be diagonal, 2004 in one reality and 2007 in the other. You'd make an excellent English major, Mel ;)
Side question, where did Jack's neck cut come from? I'm assuming it got cut in the 2007 reality, but I can't remember.
This is turning into a pretty good sandwich, but lets leave it to Darlton to provide the meat. I hope it's roast beef. Maybe some spicy mustard.
Huh... it just occurred to me, WHH is the biggest proof of the two timelines. Oceanic 815 crashes. That happened. They blow up Jughead. That also happened. The only way for WHH to be preserved is to create another reality/timeline because Jughead's destruction and the crash of 815 cannot coincide. It allows for free will while maintaining what has come before.
MEL, I love it, as usual. I am a Christian, so that may be influencing my "perception" of the Jacob character. It's funny how our own beliefs shade our perceptions of how things are. Everyone perceives "reality" differently.
Thorsten, thanks for that link earlier. I had read that before too. All the possible realities existing at the same time...talk about mind blowing.
Futureself, totally w/you on that. Loopety loop. I totally had the feeling Jack was conscious of being in a different timeline on the plane. When he went to the bathroom & was looking at himself in the mirror. It had a weird vibe to it. Then, also, bracing himself during the turbulence. Like he was bracing for the plane to break apart. But then it didn't & he realized...it worked.
Also, just have to say my favorite scene (or maybe one of my favorites) was Flocke telling Ben Locke's last thought as he was dying. "Isn't that just the saddest thing you've ever heard?" or something to that affect. Terry's delivery of that whole speech, the lighting, everything, was just too perfect. I loved it so much. I can't wait to rewatch on my mother-in-law's DVR!
MEL, sorry I keep using timeline & realities interchangeably:P I don't "perceive" (read as understand or comprehend) the difference in the LOST world. Maybe not in my world either;)
And, I am lovin' this sandwich! Keep 'em coming.
Ginger..the difference is in the exaggeration and distortion...The external world of the plane, is rather calm , everything as expected. The Internal reality is very distorted and or exaggerated. The " hearing problem" or excessive reverberation at the onset of the Island reality is a good example of the distortion suffered when visiting our internal world. The exaggerated red faces, especially Sawyers hate mask,,etc etc,,all are suggesting to me an internal wildly exaggerated and distorted ..yet due to linkage to what happens on the Plane, the external reality,are perceptions of the same events.One is.." real" and one is a metaphor,a " feel"..an internal digesting or processing of that same event.
Find what is common between the scenes as they segue from one to another,,and the show will open up in new dimensions...imho.
MEL
Hi all!
I've never been to this site, so I'll introduce myself. My name is Justin and I'm a Lost-aholic. I sometimes post on LostARGs and know a bunch of you from there. To the others - it's nice to meet you all. Posting here, I feel a bit like I'm at a friend of a friend's party, lol.
Anyways, I'll probably post here from time to time. I lurk a lot too. I also have a website for the art I do (and feature guest artists and giveaways). It's DamonCarltonAndMe.com. I'm a big puzzle nerd though, so I like to post clues to be solved that lead to my artwork. My second screen-printed poster just came out and I will be posting the URL for it on my site in about 12 hours (or you could solve the clues and find it).
@Will - Jack's neck cut stuck in my head as well. When I first saw it, I immediately thought they'd explain it as something that happened to the 2007 Jack - but alas, so far no explanation.
And as far as the linear time, alternate realities, etc. - I tried to explain some of the popular theories of time travel to my friend (and fellow Lostie) that joined me for the premier, but I think I just confused her more...I would make a horrible teacher. It was funny though to watch her try to explain Lost to her friend that had never seen the show. It really is difficult and sounds ridiculous trying to explain the story in a nutshell.
speaking of Jacks cut on his neck (Oh and good morning all) I noticed that when they showed Faraday, he had a bandage on his neck in the same place that Jack had his cut. Wonder if they are one in the same.
Good Morning All
JT
I think it might be both. That Richard was a slave and that he ended up in the middle of Jacob’s and MIB’s dispute.
If you remember Bram had picked Miles up off the street and asked him “the question”. So I think he’s suppose to be there, but he may not be "ready" yet.
Hi Lisa
Jack's cut on his neck made me think of Daniel's gun shot wound too. But it's on the wrong side unless the time lines/universes are mirrored.
But you'd still have to ask why Jack would have Daniel's wound.
yeah your right Sayid'sgirl, I had to go find the photo to make sure it was the other side. It was the first thing I thought of though when I saw Jacks neck. My bf keeps telling me all us Losties have wayyyy too much time on our hands to notice all this stuff lol
I watched the LA X for the third time last night. Then a throry hit me.....
We know the producers like to play with us.
What if The opening scene last night, From the pan back of Jack on the plane, through to the foot underwater, was the last scene in the final episode???
What if these "flash sideways" are actually a flash forward? whatever happened, happended?
So in season 6, we are seeing the happy resolution of our characters on the mainland, intercut with the final battle on the island that ends with jack attempting and suceeding in his reset, sinking the island and saving everyone who has died in the process?
This way, we reach conclusion on the island, and instantly realise that our characters have happy endings becasue we already know the story after the show has finished??
OK, it sounds far fetched, but it would work!
ioioos
Three times already, wow!
I think there are a few people thinking along those lines. That the island time line is the middle and the plane time line is the end and at some point the two time lines will converge.
Me I'll take any time line that Sayid is alive in. :) Because something tells me he's not going to have it easy on the island even though he's "alive".
I think between knowing the title of episode 4 and listening to the Jay and Jack podcast this week, I may have cracked either part of the end of the show or the major storyline for getting there :)
ioi- I think someone mentioned that too at some point way back- maybe this is the end result. That would be a way to make the "different" story relevant to the one we know.
Another thought popping up- did Rose, Bernard and Vincent travel to 2007- or were they too far from the Swan- so stayed in 1977?
Sorry Mel- It all may be metaphor-but the little marbles of logic just run down the rails in my brain and I need to know where they will fall.
I'm happy there are so many layers of Lost though-just have to switch POV to see them all.
Amy Lynn- they said after the first episode there would be enough info for a good theory.
@SG- It seemed odd to me that Richard would be a slave as weren't most in the 1800's African? The "in chains" certainly makes you think of the Black Rock- but it my be that the skeletons chained there weren't the slaves either- maybe it was just confinement for whoever was losing in the conflict.
Hi Justin!
Nothing constructive to add at this point as my brain is still numb. Second viewing required urgently.
Just want to say how great it is to see more of the Argers coming over here and joining in.
ioioos, good to see you!
@JT, yeah, it's a theory I've had going for awhile now, only confirmed by some stuff that happened in LA X, the title of S6.04, etc.
And thanks to the TLC regulars for giving us a second home. Much appreciated.
Amy, now you made me want to know the title of EP4! NO NO NO... I don't. I do, I do! No I don't.
No. I definitely don't.
@ChrisL, you don't. LOL. It's only 13 days away, you'll survive.
Hi ChrisL and Justin
You're welcome ChrisL. We're a chatty bunch and we love to hear different theories.
JT
I'm not a big history person. But I'd say yeah probably alot of the slaves of that time were African but not all.
I don't know I guess we'll have to see. I'm sure there's more to Richard's fear than being taken off a slaving ship. If he was.
Hey here's a thought. Maybe Richard was the Captain of the slave ship. But he doesn't strike me as a slaver. hummmm
Just managed to watch the episode, fantastic mind bending stuff.
Also my fist is still pumping the ait for the first scene featuring "So how's the drink" I had no insder knowledge honest.
I thought Magnus Hanso was the Captain of the Black Rock.
@Zort
There i was watching LA X when Cindy said the line and I though..."he knew"!
I was actually wondering a bit about that, Zort ;))
here are my thoughts about LA X…
memphish
Duh you're right. lol
Hey it was just a thought. :)
YAY Thorsten! Yes I DO want some fish!
Zort, so your bandwidth held out! Great news. We believe you on the opening line...
Go, get it Chris!
Yeah I wasn't thinking when I said Richard might be the Captain. I was trying to think what role he'd play if he wasn't a slave on the Black Rock.
He may have been a slave of MIB's in a previous war not neccessarily a prisoner. Because I'm pretty sure this isn't the first war on this island.
It could be the fear in Richard's eyes was knowing that if MIB was "alive" then Jacob was probably dead.
I was thinking maybe first mate for Richard- didn't the first mate write the journal/log?
Destruction of the Foot- a clue in Smokey knocking out the huge slab on Bram? Smokey during the Black Rock conflict?
Amy Lynn- your theory brings up though the hope that folks will refrain if they have been exposed to any advance stuff from putting it in theories here too. It's going to become harder to keep track of where our ideas came from I know- but just a thought.
Speaking of theories- I like the idea of MIB in jail on the island and Jacob as his keeper. And of Jacob messing about with the locals as he must be bored to tears- by messing I mean trying to help them evolve- to make progress.
MIB's "dissapointment" line reminded me of Ben's "you're mine" to Juliet- very dangerous, sometimes childish guys- on different scales of course. Maybe the force of the island helps to keep MIB contained- so here he sits exiled. I am liking my idea of the Temple pool as escape door if it is drained more with this theory too.
Morning all! Great thoughts as always.
I'm having trouble with Richard being from the Black Rock and being in chains there. I still think it's an allegory to being "enslaved" somehow by Jacob and always doing his bidding (in exchange for mortality?). Flocke told Bram and company that their services were no longer needed to be the bodyguards for Jacob since he was dead. They were now free. I think he applied that train of thought when he spoke to Richard. I could be wrong...just by gut feeling.
I'm so excited to see how these 2 realities eventually meet up! And I don't think these people will ever really be happy (maybe except for Rose and Bernard for a while until her cancer comes back, and maybe Hurley who seems to have accepted his businessman persona)...I don't really see a happy ending for anyone else.
I don't know why, but as soon as anti-Jacob said the bit about Richard's chains I immediately thought of Prometheus.
Another possibility was that Richard was in chains as punishment. If he was from the black rock maybe he did something he wasn't supposed to so the other sailors put him in the brig.
Or the chains could be a metaphor. Richard said he was different because Jacob changed him, so maybe anti-Jacob was saying that Rich was bound to Jacob in some way, but now that Jacob is dead Richard is free.
@maven, I'm not sure about him being a slave, but I think the writers have made it very clear that Richard came on the Black Rock.
How did they make it clear that he came from the black rock?
@Will, um, there's little purpose to the Black Rock storyline if it doesn't tie to one of our main characters. At this point, Richard's our only choice. That and the chains remark should direct you right there, sweetie.
There were many other purposes for the Black Rock in the mythology of Lost. Without it being there, Widmore would not have bid on the Journal so that we might find some insight as to where the island is. The writers also needed a source of dynamite on the island to help people blow things up! Also, we see the supposed Black Rock being lured to the island by Jacob...another device to show his powers. So just having Richard be from the Black Rock is not the only important purpose for the ship.
@maven, I disagree. Each of those purposes are served by other things on the show. As to location, we got that from the first episode. Danielle could have had dynamite with her, as could the Dharma people. And the lure of the island... well, again, that's Danielle.
The Black Rock definitely has to be significant, but as to Richards involvement I think we still have reasonable doubt about it at the moment. (although it's becoming less reasonable as time goes by :-) )
I think the Black Rock is there so that someone could get £18.99 + postage from me for a T Shirt ;-)
Right, I'd say it is very likely Rich is from the ship, but it isn't perfectly clear, nor is it guaranteed. This is LOST after all. For a while I thought Richard might be Egyptian. Perhaps he is one of the people who helped build the temples.
Egyptian or alien ?
Is that a can of worms I hear ?
D&C never write throwaway lines.
Esaus comment to Richard included the classical double meaning they employ all the time. Richard was enchained by his service and devotion to Jacob, who made him ageless in the first place, and on the Black Rock in 1850 when Esau played his game with her crew.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the bomb explosion isn't part of the LAX timeline. I think Miles was right in the finale: the H-bomb explosion WAS the Incident. That's why they were catapulted into the future without anything else having been changed. Something else happened to the island in the LAX timeline that caused the island to sink—-maybe drilling into the electromagnetic pocket, as Doc Jensen suggested--but I don't think we've seen it yet.
I'm not sure how the two timelines will cross each other, but given the show's focus on redemption and (at least thematically) reincarnation, the fact that there IS a parallel timeline is what is important.
@Erich, that was suggested long before Doc Jensen, who gets his info from watching spoilers.
I'm not sure who said it in the comments above, but I'm also in the "Jacob as MIB's jailer" camp. I wrote a bit about that theory in my write-up over on TV Verdict. Here's one choice section:
"With the exception of a few notable characters, Lost as a series has been about people trying to go home. To escape from the island, from their personal demons, from their pasts, from themselves. Where, exactly, is “home” for the Man in Black? If he is the unbending evil force he appears to be, home could be everything outside of the Island—a world of flawed humans ripe and ready for his harsh judgment.
It’s possible that, rather than some kind of omnipotent equal, Jacob was actually a glorified security guard, tasked with keeping the Man in Black in ashen chains on his island prison. Looping back into the show’s themes of redemption, betterment, and reincarnation, perhaps the Island exists to keep humanity safe from its final, smokey Judgment Day until the cycles of violence and self-destruction have ended.
Of course, if that isolation theory is true, why would Jacob lure outsiders onto his lonely Alcatraz, especially when doing so might mean that one of them could interfere with his plans, like Ben did when he was tricked by the Man in Black into killing him? Tough question, but one that might be answered by looking back to Adam and Eve’s story in Genesis. Why would God bring imperfect people in his perfect world? A better question might be why did He give those people the free will to choose to disobey? Leaving Christianity’s answers to those questions aside, in Lost terms, maybe free will is the only way for those imperfect people to improve themselves.
Perhaps Jacob brings outsiders to the island to test the morality waters of the world at large, or in hopes that he’ll eventually prove to his evil inmate that humanity is worth saving after all."
@Amy Lynn: In that case, consider "and others" added to my comment. I hadn't been following LOST threads that closely.
Either way, I still like the idea that although we're supposed to think that the bomb created the alternate timeline, it actually had nothing to do with it at all.
I wanna know where the Temple Others came from, and whether they even KNOW or affiliate with the "Hostiles".
Good question. I want to know more about Smokey's relationship with the Temple. He obviously wasn't always blacksmoka non grata, since we saw him kill poor Montand and pretend to be Ben's dead daughter. Maybe he really was a "security system" at some point, protecting the outer Temple wall, until he went rogue?
Also, considering that Ben never met Jacob before he killed him, is it possible he was being manipulated by the MIB long before Flocke entered the picture.
I realize that the Temple Others at least know the Hostile Others (because Cindy and the kids were there). But it's certainly strange that Mr. Miyagi speaks Japanese and not Latin.
Maybe the time shift that accompanied the detonation/EM pocket is what caused the island to shift in time/space, i.e. now it is underwater in that reality
In episode 5.15 this exchange occurs, "LOCKE: Is this everyone?
RICHARD: Well, there's another group at the Temple, but--" I interpret that to mean that those at the Temple and those with Richard are one group. The fact that Cindy's there as you said also seems to indicate the same. Maybe Mr. Miyagi doesn't like the taste of Latin either.
I wonder where John Lennon learned Japanese!
I, too, think they are all one group. Ben's Others decided to take over New Otherton and started to veer away from living off the island like the Temple Others. They had book clubs, cooked muffins, had a cup of coffee on their porches, etc. Locke even chided Ben for living the life of ease in New Otherton and not being part of the island. The Temple Others seemed to like their lives being one with the island. I think Ben began to lose control by being so urbanized.
Memphish: I agree. It would seem odd at this point to introduce Other Other Others (or whatever we're up to now) who are different than Richard's group. I've been thinking of them as a Cult of Jacob, though that's probably too simple for this show.
I'd bet they are made up of people who were selected out of the groups that Jacob brought to the island because they passed some test of purity. Maybe that's why those people, Cindy and the kids among them, were simply removed right away, while the other castaways (our beloved Losties) had to struggle on their own, to better themselves.
I currently like the idea that the MIB is itching to judge humanity for its many sins (or flaws, if you prefer), but can't because Jacob has been keeping him at bay in his island prison. That's why he wants to go "home" -- that is, the outside world. He wants to bring about Judgment Day, but Jacob and his followers believe that humanity is capable of redemption. Whether that means Jacob is just forestalling the inevitable judgment to save as many people as possible, or his goal is to prevent MIB from ever getting loose, I'm not sure. Now that MIB is free on the island, I'm not sure what's going to happen. Sounds like a War to me, though.
If they are one group, I'd be interested in seeing a Cindy centric episode, to see why she defected from the civilized (beach) others to the Temple Others.
One more thought to piggyback on my comment above: Maybe the reason Jacob never spoke to Ben is because he came as part of the Dharma Initiative rather than Jacob choosing to bring him to the island.
LOL Memphish.
Interesting points everyone.
RA's chains could also imply imprisonment as well as slavery. While RA's apparent ethnicity doesm't fit in with the European slave trade that the BR comes from, throughout history a prisoner could end up as a slave as well. It seems just about every major society/region in world history had slaves imported from somewhere, so it's possible that he could have been a slave. I'm not hanging on any theory, just sayin'.
@Erich... to piggy back off you, if Flocke/Emily was the one who guided Ben to the Others, I can understand why Jacob would be pissed off.
I'm also at this point leaning towards there being one total group of Others, which could have been split up into different missions. That is, temple guarding Others, Others who have to deal with The World, island guarding Others, etc.
I still haven't decided if Cindy was always an Other, or if she was taken in the jungle from the Tailies and then put through Room23 to turn her into one.
@Amy Lynn: Excellent point. It's possible that Ben has always been a usurper as leader of the Others, and he may not even have known. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ben just pretend to get instructions from Jacob? Or did he go through Richard?
The entirety of Ben's leadership position could have been orchestrated by MIB to ultimately kill Jacob. A "long con" if you will.
As for Richard's chains, though it may be "too obvious" for those of us who frequent the messageboards, I could easily see him being a slave (or at least a prisoner) on the Black Rock. It would tie that storyline together nicely.
Did the Others go back to the real world before Dharma/Ben? If not, I wonder if that globetrotting was a perversion of what the Cult of Jacob originally stood for -- something that took their focus away from what they should have been doing (protecting/helping Jacob), and allowed the MIB to slowly carry out his escape plan.
Just realized I am posting WAY too much. I'll sit back for a while and let everyone else chime in.
RA visited Locke's mother at the hospital when he was born, so that's before the DI era of the island.
P.S. SG, I wrote an article about Sayid today. :-)
@Erich...I think it's likely Smokey has been courting Ben from the start. Like John, Ben didn't want to leave the Island (a prerequisite for Smokey's advances?). Neither did Widmore for that matter. I wonder what Charles' part is in all this?
I don't think Cindy defected to the Temple, I think she probably graduated to it. Remember back in early Season 4 Alex when Keamey's mercs were coming, neither Alex nor Karl knew about the Temple? I think you probably had to fully commit to Other-dom (maybe pass that Latin AP exam) to get to the Temple.
As for Ben's leadership, it's tempting to say that he usurped leadership, but I think that's also too easy. Richard was clearly part of pushing Widmore out and if Richard is to be trusted he seems to have been acting, for the most part, on Jacob's instructions, ferrying lists, etc. I think Ben was legitimately the leader of the Others. Why Jacob refused to meet with him, that I don't know. A test of Island faith?
I suppose one has to first acknowledge that all these characters are rather cardboard thin as they are presented. Jack as anal retentive logic and reason,,Kate, the always finding freedom Free Will, Sawyer as the rouge Animal Instincts, Hurley , in his dark irony as Humor, Sayid as the never tells a lie , painful truth, Sun and Jin in their star crossed lovers as indeed the male and female sides of love, Locke as pretty clearly pointed out as Faith,Charlie as Failure or self defeatism, Julie as Trust, Ben as deceit: On and on thru the cast one can go if one is willing to see that these characters simply can not be characterizations of anything close to a fully dimensioned human being.
So, these characters come across as segments of what make a whole human being. But there has been a crash, a disassembly of that whole human being. For five seasons we've seen their power struggles for dominance , attempts at getting along with each other, working things out amongst their competitive spirits, failure and successes in the past, in the now and in the projected future.
Season 6 has started the re- assembly in earnest. The start over includes the death of Trust; another way of saying, Trust nothing. But with Trust dead, the Losties trying to keep Truth alive,,head for the sanctuary of the Temple, religion. Its obvious that established religion , the Temple and the Temple-iestas, have great fear of the MIB Locke. Prepare the ashes!, yea hang on to the What Once Was but Its Time has come and gone. It will be fascinating to see how the various characters "play" in the up coming encounter between MIB Locke and the Temple-iestas. If there is a " war" to be had, that battle line will be fascinating to watch develop. Sayid on the inside, reborn Truth...will the Dogon and his Temple-iestas be able to acquiesce to Sayid's truth? If Jake has a greater plan,,then MIB LOcke is the means to it? If there is no Greater plan, when will we see the last of Jake?
We're looking at the Big Resolution here in season 6.Resolving the Conflict, becoming Whole, Unification of the Realities,,seems to me to require a missing aspect or element or..Character. A character even greater than Jake and or MIB Locke seems to be waiting in the wings. I await her que.
Btw..after rewatching,,the seques from plane to island and back to plane,,are craftmanship at its Lost best. The production Team appears to be certainly Unified in their effort. Writers, directors, editors, producers, etc etc, all seem to have a clear focused vision of what they want to do. I can feel the Love.
MEL
IMO the TempleOthers and Hostile/Others are all just one group. Pre-Ben we have seen the Hostile/Others living on the Island (outside of the Temple), so there may always have been one such group to keep an eye on the Isalnd outside of the Temple, while the TempleOthers largely stay in the Temple and do whatever is is they do there.
Elrich -- I think Ben's manipulation (some have used the term grooming) by MIB began with Benito seeing his dead mother Emily in the jungle. I believe Jacob knew of this manipulation and of MIB's plan and purposely ignored Ben -- this waspart of Jacob's own contingency plan.
I agree with Thorsten, that MIB/Flocke's comment about Richard having been in chains was both metaphorical, and literal.
Thorsten, I stay away from blogs until later in the week, but I will go check yours out now!
I do like the idea that Jacob stayed away from Ben because of the Emily manifestation which was probably MIB. I'm not completely sold on it though because there were whispers when ghost of Emily first appeared to young Ben weren't there? And now we've most recently heard the whispers with the Temple Others. Boy now that's a mystery I'd like resolved.
Also MIB appeared to Locke on Island, at least Smokey did and Christian did and yet Jacob dealt with him, or did that only count because it was pre-Island/Smokey/MIB contact?
Oh, the small hill of beans we'll divert ourselves with between episode. :-)
memphish, I'm not saying Jacob stayed away from Ben simply because of the MIB visit. Jacob stayed away from Ben, purposely, as part of his own manipulation of Ben. Jacob has some contingency plan in place and for it to work, this part of MIIB's plan (the loophole) has to first be played out. The loophole would not play out unless Ben felt completely neglected by Jacob. Throughout all of this though you can see that Ben had a choice -- he did not have to continue the charade that he got orders from Jacob, etc.
So we have to wonder if Eloise if/when Eloise and Widsy ever spoke to Jacob?
Thanks to everyone for adding some much-needed perspective to my Ben-as-usurper theory. I'm backing away from the idea that Jacob had nothing to do with his becoming a leader. If Jacob's larger mission was to prove to MIB that humanity is worth saving, Ben would be the perfect test case. Whether or not MIB appeared to him as Emily, he definitely had some influence over Ben in the form of Smokey.
Much as I'm sure Lost isn't an elaborate Christian metaphor, there are major similarities between Jacob/Ben and Jesus/Judas. Jesus needed Judas to help bring about his death in order to fulfill his destiny and save humanity. Maybe Jacob needed Ben to do the same thing. What if, by killing Jacob, Ben has started down a new path that will eventually lead to the destruction of MIB. Or at least him realizing that free will gives him the ability to choose to do right rather than live a bitter life as the perpetual victim.
I'm pretty sure Ellie and Charles never had anything to do with Jacob. When Charles wants Alex killed, Ben asks if that's what Jacob would have wanted. Now, probably Jacob could have cared less about Alex one way or the other, but if Charles/Ellie had been in touch with Jacob, they could have, y'know, asked him.
Ob8,,Ben as Deceit goes a long way to understanding the Jake/ Ben relationship. The sincerity of Jake makes the acknowledgment of Ben impossible. And of course, the deceit of Ben makes for great claims of relationship with Jake that doesn't exist.
Charles and Eloise having a relationship with Jake ..would not reflect well on Jake. After all,,both Chas and Ellie,,had a disregard for their off spring. If there was any messaging between Jake and those two,,they probably disregarded it as well...imho.
MEL
Random um, request. Can we use people's names, and not pet nicknames? There are enough double names on the show to worry about without having to decode cutesy nicknames.
..ummm..I prefer to quote Jimmy Ford's line.." I ain't following anybody!"
MEL
Heheh, our nicknames have been a tradition here at TLC since the beginning, so you'll have a difficult time getting us out of that habit. Patchy, Smokey, Wid, Crybaby, Flocke, Freckage, Benry, we've got a name for everyone and everything. I don't think that tradition will ever change.
X-D
I don't mind Smokey, Patchy, etc., nicknames used by the creators. The other ones are just annoying.
I'm not sure what confuses you so much, Amy Lynn. What do you suggest we call the thing in Locke's body? I personally like Flocke.
I'm calling him Flocke, too, sometimes. Or Esau.
I think I was mainly objecting to Widsy. LOL.
I've been using nicknames for a long time at the ABC boards as well, and a lot of people find them entertaining.
Entertaining in what sense?
TPTB didn't make up those names, we did while chatting during the episodes! Ya had to be there I guess.
I am thinking about something right now, could Desmond be the new Jacob or something like him? Maybe he visits the Losties now, to guide them int he "right" direction?
I've never had anyone else find "Widsy" confusing. Lots of LOSTies use nicknames like that when they post. Doubt you'll see a change in that after 5 years.
...Andre Breton seems to me to be THE name for MIB Locke.
I believe one of the purposes of LOST..is to annoy. Annoying motivates change. Change is good.
MEL
Interesting MH, let's go back and look to see if Des touched Jack on the plane.
Not sure about Desmond taking Jacob's place, but I still wonder why he disappeared from 815 at about the time it flew over the sunken island. Last time we saw people disappear mid-flight, it was when Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid got sucked back in time. Could the same thing have happened to Desmond in the LAX timeline? Probably not, since TBTB said they are done with time travel. Still...
he did, there was a handshake
its just a theory, im not even sure if i believe it myself :D
There ya go! Add that to the theory box. :-)
Des as the new Jacob...interesting!
I certainly want to see more Desmond, so why not?
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