In the Season 5 finale, Jack runs into stiff opposition to his plan to set things right on the island, while Ben gets a tough job assignment from Locke.
Will Jack blow up Jughead?
Will Locke kill Jacob? Who/what is Jacob?
How did Hurley get on the plane?
Where are Rose and Bernard?
And what, exactly, is Christian smiling about?
Wednesday, May 13, 2009
The Incident - Season 5, Episode 16
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 563 Newer› Newest»Illes - is coming up "He"
Qui - comes up who/which/that
nos - is coming up we/us
omnes - comes up 'all knowing' or 'God'
servabit - is coming up 'being saved'
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He,who knowing all, saves us. ???
LOL Scoutpost about Hurley! :-D
Me too, all I've got is my computer.
Well, we were close considering none of us spoke latin. LOL
You know, it kind of takes away from Juliet's epic sacrifice if when she detonates the bomb, things go as Jack said.. because none of it happened, right? They'd all be back to where flight 815 just goes and lands at LAX.. Juliet is still trying to get Ben to let her go home, etc?? Or do I have this all wrong?
I don't think things will be the same, but I'm not convinced that they'll be as if 815 never crashed. I don't think Juliet's move will be for naught.
But I also think we're pretty much done with her. No Desmond in Season 1, no Juliet in Season 6. Both hit a failsafe at the bottom of the Swan.
LOL Lost2010. Yeah, we do couchpotato Latin. :-)
Blacky, if we have to go through everything again, I'm gonna die. I've already watched the first 2 seasons to death.
Nice analogy, Kyle! (and I think you're right)
Good point Kyle.
Going back to my theory of Jacob being a good guy, I can't reconcile that with him distracting Sayid when Nadia was killed.
And is "Esau" smokey? If so, how was Ben able to summon him? Is summoning him, just releasing him and once he's released he does whatever he wants? I guess the "judgement" he passed on Ben was done just part of the plan to get him to kill Jacob.
Also, good call on Esau. Their biblical story goes beyond fighting for a long time: Jacob stole Esau's blessing by dressing up as someone else.
I don't think the bomb undid anything. I think it sent the Losties to 2007, but it didn't change the past. Chang still loses his arm, etc.
I want to see the first season played out only with some changes! I speculate that they still crash, and seemingly don't remember each other, but then (almost like Desmond) they have Deja Vu type flashes of remembering. They can't make all the enlightenment and progress/maturity that the Losties have gone through go to nothing!
Lostit, maybe Sayid and Nadia were both going to get hit, and he could only save one at a time? But then again, if he smacked Juliet's hubby with the bus......
I wonder if the guitar case has something in it that can save the day? Maybe it's Jacob's ashes? Wow, what a time loop that would be! I think I just got nauseus.
Yes, I think Esau has something to do with the Smoke Monster. Whether they are one in the same or not, I don't know. But I think they're equivalent.
I wonder about Ilana's statement that "someone else" was using the cabin. Someone other than Jacob? Someone like "Esau"? In the guise of another dead body, Christian?
Kyle/thebookpolice said...
Also, good call on Esau. Their biblical story goes beyond fighting for a long time: Jacob stole Esau's blessing by dressing up as someone else.
Nice!
And I like your idea about the someone else... yeah, Christian! Was that also a disguise?!
I took some latin and
Illes qui nos omnes servabit
is something like:
He who will serve us all.
I wonder what the script calls the bad guy, perhaps just the man in black.
Kyle, that's what I was thinking, that Esau was using the cabin.
I think of all the people, Rose and Bernard have it figured out. They're living happily ever after.
I'm guessing the ash at the cabin was supposed to keep Esau out?
Wow, if Christian was the bad guy, maybe the 06ers weren't actually supposed to be there like Daniel said?! The bad guy wanted them there, not Jacob...so that's bad, m'kay? :-D
And maybe the ash around the cabin was meant to keep the bad guy away from Jacob????
Haha, great minds, Lostit. :-)
Yeah, it was great seeing Rose and Bernard and Vincent! They seem so happy and beyond all that stress.. LOL! It's almost like.. "oh, oh.. the kids found us, there goes our peace"
But Jacob directly influenced Hurley and Sayid to come back to the island. . .
Oh right. :-o
Jacob was even responsible for Locke being there. I'm getting myself more confused as I try to figure this out. I guess if Locke was alive, Esau wouldn't have been able to convince Ben to kill Jacob.
Could there be a clue in the book Jacob was reading when Locke was pushed out the window?
It's looking more and more like Claire is dead, since she was in the cabin with Christian and acting unlike herself.
Well, time space and continuum whatsists have all been blown out of the water, cause and effect have been thrown for a loop, and the universe is supposed to "course correct" in the words of Ms. Hawking... I guess I was wrong, maybe human beings really can be variables...
I am lost.
If Richard refused to take Ben to see Jacob, why was he so willing to take Locke to him?
Ooo! I just had another thought! could Esau be the one responsible for Ben's cancer and allowing Alex to get killed? Could that have been a manipulation of Ben all along?
Richard's agelessness due to Jacob. How does that work? Was Esau similarly affected? Did he resent it? Did Richard resent it, thus allowing for an unstable element to have a meeting with Jacob? In the hopes he'd slice 'im up?
It was a bit Gone with the Wind though, wasn't it?
Juliet (Melanie) dying and telling Sawyer (Ashley) that he has her permission to go to Kate(Scarlett). Only in the end Sawyer (Ashley) realizes it was Juliet (Melanie) that he loved all along and Kate (Scarlett) realizes she really wanted Jack (Rhett) who has decided that its too late for them.
Sigh. . .beautiful. I forgive them for not killing Desmond now.
Just darn perfect.
Okay, did American Idol break the Internet, or are all you guys talking with people in the real world?
It was just like that, lost2010, except sort of not.
Nite guys!
Kyle - I think you've got the right idea on the agelessness. Some would see it as a blessing while others would see it as a curse I suppose.
"Everything That Rises Must Converge" sounds pretty provocative.
Here's a partial plot summary. Wiki's not too revealing about anything meaningful. http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-everythingconverge/sum.html
It needs work I'll admit. . .I'll force a GWTW paralell out of it yet though. . .I've got what? 7 months?
Sounded good to me Lost2010. :-)
FWIW, the title of O'Conner's book that Jacob was reading references the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who was a philosopher into "the unfolding of the material cosmos, from primordial particles to the development of life, human beings and the noosphere, and finally to his vision of the Omega Point in the future, which is "pulling" all creation towards it. He was a leading proponent of orthogenesis, the idea that evolution occurs in a directional, goal driven way. To Teilhard, evolution unfolded from cell to organism to planet to solar system and whole-universe (see Gaia theory). Such theories are generally termed teleological views of evolution."
I'll think I'll do some research on him over the weekend. :-)
Damn...Juliet
Ok that really pisses me off. Juliet and Jack of all people in the medical field should've known to get the hell out of the way when all the metal began to get sucked in...it's like a freakin MRI machine. I'm so mad that Juliet's gone!!!!!
Wow this is maybe the first time ever I've felt sorry for Ben....whoa
Oh man. Gonna catch up on comments. I think I'm speechless.
Interesting, capcom.
I transcripted the conversation at the beginning with Jacob and "the man in black".. for this I just used his name to be, Black:
Jacob and Black talking about the approaching ship...
Jacob: I take it you're here because of the ship
Black I am.... how did they find the Island?
Jacob: You'll have to ask them when they get here
Black: I don't have to ask... (Black looks at Jacob and says) You brought them here
Jacob doesn't answer, looks down
Black: Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?
Jacob: You are wrong
Black: Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt.. It always ends the same
Jacob: But it only ends once. Anything that happens before that, it's just progress.
Black; Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?
Jacob: Yes
Black: One of these days, sooner or later, I'm going to find a loophole, my friend
Jacob: Well, when you do, I'll be right here
Black: It's always nice talking to you, Jacob
And I found this about "Everything That Rises Must Converge":
"Most critics view ‘‘Everything That Rises Must Converge’’ as a prime example of O’Connor’s literary and moral genius. The story exemplifies her ability to expose human weakness and explore important moral questions through everyday situations.......O’Connor utilizes biting irony to expose the blindness and ignorance of her characters. The story’s title refers to an underlying religious message that is central to her work: she aims to expose the sinful nature of humanity that often goes unrecognized in the modern, secular world."
found this here: http://www.enotes.com/everything-rises
scoutpost, I know how you feel.. it took me awhile to recover, too!
Question for ya'll: I heard secondhand that the producers said something along the lines of 'there will be a death in the finale on par with Charlie's'. But I don't know exactly what they said.
Now, my circle was all under the impression that the statement was talking about Juliet's death-- but I was thinking on it a minute ago, and if we accept that 'Locke' is really Jacob's nemesis in disguise, and Locke is really dead- then Locke really dead for real this episode, and that's a major, major death.
So question:
1. What did TPTB actually say?
2. Do you agree with my theory that Locke is actually the major death here?
Sorry if this echoes things that have already been said, I haven't followed the whole thread. Forgive me.
oops, forgot to add that at the very end of the conversation, Jacob says to Black, "Nice talking to you too."
I'm going to re-watch at least some of the rest now. I'll be looking to see if Jacob has to TOUCH those who get sent to the Island. I noticed later, but not at first that he made it a point to touch them. Any idea of a general 'rule' as to who Jacob 'sends' to the Island? In other words, why the Losties got picked in the first place? (other than their potential for being screwed up in their minds because of their life experience) I guess this is what I'll be looking for on the re-watch.
Hello, Dark...
answer:
1. I don't know
2. I would call Locke's death more of a reveal than a major death in this episode. We already saw him dead before and in the coffin. Juliet's death reminds me more of Charlie's because it was like an accidental sacrifice and they made their last moments count for the greater good, thinking of others (lol, not 'The Others')
Locke really turned out to have a "Bad Twin", didn't he? Also, then the 'Yemi' that Eko saw right before his death.. another 'bad twin'.. hmmm, Christian in Jacob's cabin, etc. etc...
Exceptional!
Jacob didnt put up much of a fight. loved how the flow of the comments about Sawyer during the episode changed by the end of the episode.
Sayids girl - so sorry about your cable.
the incident and the turning of the failsafe seem very similar. loved the ending going to white. made me feel the story is about jacob vs man #2/black and that the losties are just pieces on the chess board.
dont really trust jacob at this moment. he wanted sawyer to right the letter and turned sayid into the killer. we have never seen richard flat out go against the leader like he did against Elle.
black swan its funny because i thought that jacob had more of the bad twin vibe
Well I'm not sure what to say...
It truly was greater than any expectation I had. Had to be the best season finale so far. Just when you thought the show was settling into a groove they throw this at us! Yea TPTB
The only thing that really kept hitting me in the face were the religious undertones that were in this episode- between Jacob and "Esau". From at least a Judeo-Christian point of view I felt like "Esau" almost = Satan and Jacob = God. It's not perfect, but if you go back with that mindset and listen to the things both men said- well I can draw a parallel. I don't know where they would be going with that though. This one's gonna take a while to digest.
Gonna have to watch Kimmel to see M.Fox.
Ok, well....does Pierre live? Because he makes the Swan orientation video sans arm and calls what happened "the incident". So...what does that mean?
bigdog said...
black swan its funny because i thought that jacob had more of the bad twin vibe
not sure what you mean here...
Yes, Matthew Fox on Kimmel was hilarious!!
Scoutpost, I think Chang survives, but they sure showed us how his arm got injured!!
I know I guess though if Chang survives, then is it possible that other people survived? And if he calls that "the incident", then it did happen before- so Dan's variable plan was not true, but instead what happened happened (or did it?) I'm confused.
Clearly everyone has decided to mull it over and have gone to bed ;)
Maven where are you?
Haven't been here in a while but OMG!!!!! Just watched the finale, checking in for email.
sorry, scoutpost... I'm too tired anymore!
Hi, MadAriad! wasn't it the BEST??
yawn... I'll see you all tomorrow! (I don't have to avoid this place now because I know spoilers.. LOL!)
How many times was OMG used tonight?
OMG OMG OMG...what an epic finale! I can't even think now!
I am so totally in shock!! I agree with Lost2010 about calling the one guy Walter (reading the dark tower right now!)
Did anyone catch that the last season is coming in 2010? Does that mean we have to wait till January?? I don't know how I'll ever make it that long.....
Total shock moment for me was the what's-in-the-box reveal. I soooo did not see that one coming!
It was so heartbreaking to see Sawyer!
I have to sleep on this (if I can)! The reveal of the real DEAD Locke. So the "War" is between Esau and Jacob? Poor, poor Juliet and Sawyer! What a scene with them!
What exactly is the loophole?
sleep....need..sleep...."see" y'all tomorrow!
WOW... is all I can say...
maven said... What exactly is the loophole?
I want to know that also...
My heart just broke for Juliet and Sawyer.
(shhh... don't tell anyone I cried..)
Sayid'sgirl so sorry if he .....
I was not happy about him getting shot.
Okay, so essentially, they're all dead. The screen goes white - it's the Tabula Rosa (Rasa?)
So questions to ponder til 2010:
1. Did our Losties keep their plane from crashing?
2. If they did change things, does this mean maybe Ben doesn't end up killing Jacob?
3. What EXACTLY is the loophole. Was Ben able to kill Jacob because of whatever transpired when he was a child?
4. If it is a Judeo-Christian archtype, is Ben Judas? And will Jacob rise again?
5. Can we get 'The gunslinger' added to the book list? Since we now have an official 'man in black'?
6. Can the writers get any better at taking us on an emotional roller coaster? And could E.M. and J.H. have done a better job with that (fantastic)?
7. If time does reset, where will it reset to? Because if Sawyer's parents died in '76, Jacob had already visited him by the time of the incident. Will they still come to the island, but land safely instead of crashing?
That's about where my poor brain is right now. Had to get it typed out so I can go to work and not be distracted. LOL
so very much to digest... so many cool things... Nadia was not so cool but *sigh*
One thought I have, somewhat prompted by Miles... any of their actions may have resulted in them causing what they were trying to avoid. I wonder if the same basic scene was "the incident", however, Juliet changed it up by hitting the failsafe, so maybe now the Swan wasn't built at all, or any number of posibilities.
Richard also said there is only one leader, yet Charles and Eloise seemed to be sharing that.
I also wonder how Radzinski went from where we saw him, to blowing his brains out in the Swan some 10 years later (if all that had already happened)... it seemed all he was doing in there was pressing the button and not the experiments he was talking about during the construction of the Swan.
I haven't gone back to check, but I am pretty sure I noticed that every time Jacob saw one of our Losties in the real world he touched them
Going to watch Kimmel this morning and probably save my rewatch of the episode for tomorrow. After all I've got plenty of time.
Couple of things. First, I'm not loving the Jacob/Esau idea because Jacob and Esau in the Bible were actually reconciled to one another at Esau not Jacob's behest. Also once Jacob stole the birth rite he was banished. They didn't continue to interact with each other basically beyond childhood.
Can't remember whether or not I read it here or somewhere else, but I like the idea the Jacob believes men are born inherently good and Black Shirt believes they are born inherently evil and that's the battle that's been going on through the ages. The Biblical Jacob and Esau both had to answer to someone. This Jacob and Black Shirt don't seem too, although there are rules and I guess someone had to create those.
As for the loophole I think what happened was Black Shirt and his manifestations can't kill Jacob, but a mortal can. Problem was no mortals other than the leaders had ever met with Jacob, and frankly I'm not sure they ever met with him either. Richard seemed to be a pretty good bodyguard. I think Slocke (Smokey+Locke=Slocke?) knew though that if he made direct requests Richard couldn't disobey, or something along those lines.
The biggest problem going forward is that basically 2 game changers happened. First Jacob was killed (we think) and so the nature of the Island itself may have been changed. I'm still not clear on that though because it seems that Black Guy clearly had influence already like giving Ben cancer. Now I'm starting to feel like this is more like God giving Satan permission to pummel Job. There's got to be non-Judeo/Christian myths that fit this scenario better. Hopefully Doc Jensen or J. Wood (is he still writing?) will ferret them out over the hiatus.
But the last thing that happened was the bomb which raises as a first question does that mean what we saw in 2007 has been undone? Has everything from 1977 been undone? Does this mean that everyone who had a second version of themselves in 1977 -- Juliet, Miles, Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, Jin (was that all?) will live from 1977 onward on a different path than the one we've seen in the past? Will only their time from when they first came to the Island be different? Is there now an Island to come to if you're Juliet or Desmond? And what about those who have a younger rather than older version of themselves in 1977 like Alpert and Ben and Widmore and Hawking? Will they disappear from 2007?
At least I feel like I have a lot to think about this hiatus unlike last hiatus. Final thought -- will we get a Locke body in the series finale? He's been there 3 years in a row now.
Amazingly even with the shot we got of the statue, the debate over it's identity continues to rage. My new favorite is Sobek.Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself.
Yeah, despite EW's thought that it was a hippo head, I think gator is the clear winner. Especially with Egyptian mythology (Sobek) on the side of that theory.
And no, J. Wood hasn't written since Jin popped up in Rousseau's life raft. He's posted maybe three things to Twitter, but that's it. I think he's done writing for the foreseeable future.
I'm wondering now if the bomb going off doesn't just give everyone a chance at redoing 9/22/04 onward but 1977 onward. Maybe Kate doesn't kill her dad this time around. Maybe Jack doesn't become a doctor. Maybe Sawyer doesn't carry a grudge for 30 years. Maybe Juliet says no to Mittelos.
I feel like we've had discussions before about what's the one thing these people would go back and change about their lives and that was way before we got to time travel. Maybe that is in fact the gift the Island and Jacob has given these people what with his fancy words about choice and all. Seems like Jacob is all free will and Black Shirt is fatalism.
Morning all (after a tough night sleeping...even with Melatonin)!
I was thinking that Jacob has been steering our Losties towards their destiny with the island all through their lives. We've seen him visit 2 as children (Kate and Sawyer), 2 as adults (Jack and Locke) and 2 after their return from the island (Sayid and Hurley). I think that was used to show that Jacob has been in everyone's life for a very long time, steering them in the right directions.
Well that was not a good night's sleep at all. My head is swimming with so many questions I don't have it all sorted yet. Feel like I need to go back now and assume that everytime I see a dead person or a smokey incident that I need to rethink it in terms of what we know now about Jacob and the man in black (MIB- not Johnny Cash).
memphish- yes you are hitting on a lot of the Judeo-Christian themes I was seeing last night. Jacob sure did mention free will and choice a lot last night too.
Maybe J. Wood will write something for the finale. I hope he's doing ok, I miss his blog.
One thing I have decided for sure is that I am holding Kate solely responsible for Juliet's death. If she hadn't gotten on the sub, Sawyer and Juliet would've sailed into the sunset and lived happily ever after in 1977! Sorry...still really upset Juliet is dead.
Ok I went to that Wiki link on Sobek and had to laugh that at the bottom in the pop culture section it says that "some people think that Sobek was revealed in the fifth season of LOST...." LOL It doesn't take long for word to get out. TPTB probably wrote that wiki article! haha
Another interesting quote from it about Sobek: He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part.That could describe Jacob going into the real world picking Kate, Sawyer, Jack, etc. "nudging things along"...but what would they be protecting people from?
1.i think it's possible that the bomb only killed julliette in the shaft of the swan, but who knows
2. jacob's healing touch is what keeps richard young
3. Is Ben gonna be the new Jacob or is the evil locke. Not only do i think the leader of the others can request a visit with jacob, i bet the leader of the others is the only one that can kill jacob.
4. Seems like jacob and his nemasis both know when the world is gonna end. Jacob said i "it only ends one way and everything else that happens before that is progress. I take it to mean that jacob has been tweaking the timeline and timeloop over and over again. The other dude is in the what happened happened school and wants to shut down the time loop. I think if the bomb didn't do it then jacob dying will end the time loop. If jacob can change things over and over, then he could prevent the bomb, but not now.
5. As i suspected the passage way to smokey is in Horace's house in the barracks. In a previous iteration of the timeline, where the bomb just supercharged the swan, but didn't explode Horace found the tunnels after the incident. Might explain howethan became an other in a previous iteration of the timeline
6. Just as Ben and widmore both used desmond for their own ends, jacob and the other dude both used locke and Ben. I think jacob basically knew that Ben was going to kill him. If he truly wanted to avoid that he would have had illana storm the beach a little bit earlier. I think originally jacob healed locke from the fall to create the time loop and the other guy used locke against jacob later. So jacob couldn't just not heal locke because that would mess up the time loop he spent all that time creating.
7. I think all the threads of jacob's tapastry he made were supposed to represent string theory and all the variable people and jacob hatching the whole time loop scenario. the black rock was just arriving and he was planting those seeds with magnus hanso
8. Who was bound inside the cabin? Probably jacob's nemesis. The shadows went there to show him locke's body and foil his plan. Jacob knew this was going to happen and asked illana to "help him", by the very least not letting evil locke be the leader of the others after he had Ben kill jacob. there are only two reason's i could think that jacob never let ben see him. The first is jacob uses richard as his go between, so the leader of the others doesn't try to kill him, whoever it may be. The other is He needed Ben to kill him to progress the story and end the loop.
9. Now i wonder if ghost christain was always evil shapeshifter guy, and he used christain's likeness to manipulate everyone. I think the smoke and shapeshifty are differn't. Shifty was definitely alex that told ben to do everything that locke said.
10. I feel shifty was who was trapped in the cabin, and once free he could assume anyone who was dead's likeness, including probably Ben's mom. Richard was susecptable to this because there are truly special people like hurley that can really see dead people and not the doppleganger. So richard was fooled into thinking Ben was special like hurley.
11. Another reason I think Ben was still the real leader is that sawyer had to kill Locke's dad for him, so he technically never did what he was supposed to.
12. I had a thought that Evil dude with jacob was a younger version of cooper? And perhaps he needed to be killed to assume leadership?
13. It was weird how jacob's flashbacks were all pretty uplifting until he let nadia get nailed by the car, this sent the whole sayid shooting young Ben into mootion. I feel that maybe Ben's temple healing may have been why he could kill jacob. The other possability is that the Ben we saw before that never saw jacob, was never shot by sayid as a child and never became a true other. So jacob made sure that Ben would truly become an other the other time around and perhaps avert getting killed by him. Doppleganger tricked Ben into thinking jacob talked to locke in the cabin, which fueled Ben's spitefulness towards jacob.
14. richard being pissed that locke picked the knife makes so much more sense now and the fact that richard didn't think locke was leader material
15. Christain and doppleganger locke were both the ones that planted the seeds that locke had to be dead to return to the island. Was his body a vessel for evil guy or was it just so doppleganger could subvert the mission of the others as "locke"
16. is widmore on jacobs side or the other guy? Did Widmore ever meet jacob or just go through richard? So when he ordered to kill danielle and alex was that widmore or jacob? Did jacob truly want richard to let ben into the others?
17. it's almost like evil guy wanted to show jacob that adding outsiders to the others"ben" would result in bad news, much like Ben was taught the same thing with saving alex.
18. were the shadows talking about candidates to be the new jacob or the New leader of the others? I feel hurley or Sawyer may be the true candidates. If killing your own father is a prerequisite then even Kate is in the running as a candidate. So i think either Ben will ascend to jacob status and there will need to be an new leader of the others or the candidate was referring to Jacob's replacement?
Don't we have to assume everyone's dead? I saw cockroaches, fruit flies and flour beetles survive 10,000 rads on Mythbusters, but only 1000 rads will kill a human. And don't ask me to describe how because it is groooooooss.
As Kyle said, it's interesting that a non-815er is the catalyst, here Juliet as Desmond was in the S2 finale.
New S6 prediction, it will be everyone's lives prior to Sept 22, 2004, but changed because of what they did in 1977, and the final scene will be everyone on 815 hitting turbulence over the Pacific on Sept. 22, 2004.
the problem with the bomb going off is if the loop resets because there is no 815'ers to meddle with the timeline, then the dharma initiative still develop the swan and someone else may still add the core of jughead to supercharge the swan and start the loop again. I can see the possability that even with no desmond/swan connection that forces may still make 815 crash on the island or in the ocean. After all the plane was 1000 miles off course, so whoever orchestrated that may still just purposely crash 815 on the island.
i wonder if jacob had Ben and the others build the runway on hydra island to ensure the ajira plane survived enough, to show the real locke was really dead and thwart shifty from leading the others
i agree that julliette was the true variable. Perhaps why Ben was "your mine". meaning she was his variable and not jacob's. After all julliette was the only one that didn't have jacob in her flashback, but ben recruited her because of the fertility problem. I think that's how Ben slipped her past richard into the others, even though jacob probably didn't ask to recruit her.
was it just me or was sawyer's uncle the same dude that was the leader of locke's weed cult?
I would assume everyone is dead....but honestly I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around all of this.
How do Hawking and Widmore fit into the equation? What are they trying to do...or not do?
Like your S6 prediction memphish.
Thanks Blacky for getting the info on the book, I was too tired to search any deeper last night. :o)
As much as I was undecided about whether or not Locke was Locke, I could not understand how a corpse that had been embalmed at the funeral home could have come back to life intact and in working condition! :-B
I also got the Job feeling Memphish. Simplistically speaking, the devil posits to God that Job/mankind really doesn't love Him with real love, but only because Job has a life of ease. So God allows Satan to take away all of Job's perks in life to prove that's not the case. It kind of fits with them both arguing about the intents of the humans.
I grudglingly vote for the gator as well. I haven't taken a second look yet, but I recall seeing some serious teeth in the shot of the statue head last night. :o)
Yes, ever since Dan brought up the alternative possiblities, I've been thinking about our old theory The Big Do-Over as well.
I agree Scoutpost, some re-thinking is necesary at this point, crikey! :-o
Did anyone else think that Locke was dead when he was pushed out the window by his dad and then Jacob's touch brought him back to life?
Also...now that Juliet's gone are we ever going to find out why she was branded by the others and what that symbol on her back meant?
I like your thoughts on the weaving, 2costa.
Just take a look at some of the "recipients" of the WW2 bomb radiation, and you'll get a good idea of what happens. But those bombs were detonated above ground on the way down, so at ground zero like our Losties, it would be much worse. And Juliet was practically holding it.
Perhaps the best thing that could come of the timeloop reset, is that this time around the DI won't hire Radzinsky!!
I thought that too Scoutpost.
It was pretty neat when it seemed that it was the MIB as Smokey/Alex telling Ben to do everything that Locke/MIB told him to do, so the killing could happen, yikes. MIB was working non-stop to get this thing to happen, wow.
In a way this gives TPTB the opportunity not to answer niggling mysteries like the brand because it never happened, or it won't have happened by the time the series ends or something like that.
I really have no clue how Widmore and Ellie fit at this point. But it's interesting that Ellie has always intoned a MIB (I like that one) attitude that nothing can change. Did the MIB try to get to her the way he did to Ben?
I'm hoping Popular Mechanics will give us a rundown on how that explosion should affect the people and the Island, but they haven't posted an article yet.
The other person whose role I don't get is Abaddon's. Was he working for or against Jacob? Jacob didn't seem to need an Abaddon, given his travels off Island, so then does that mean Abaddon is on MIB's team? Is MIB limited to the Island? Did he turn Widmore? Hawking? And now they, and their crew have been assisting him in the real world? Do they know that it's MIB and not Jacob that they've been serving? How many questions can I ask in one paragraph?
Oh right Memphish! Hopefully P.M. will cover that!
I like your Slocke too. :o)
I think for now, for simplicity's sake, I'm gonna assume that Wid and Eloise are on the side of Richard. It will help keep my head from exploding during the hiatus. But I'll be open to any theories that shine some light on their intentions! :-B
One thing about this episode...it's got us asking a boat load of questions like the old days ;)
I also wonder what end Ben thought he was serving. That's the thing I still don't get. Why would Ben serve this guy Jacob for 30 years while getting stiffed?
And I still want to know what happened to Young Ben at the Temple. Was it Jacob? MIB? Something else? Why would Jacob stop Kate shoplifting and never intervene in Ben's life in a way he would remember or we would be shown?
And where are Cindy and the kids? And why were the 815ers plus Freighties plus Juliet the only ones to jump through time?
Maven and Scoutpost are you getting all this for Comic Con question time? :-)
LOL memphish...I better start taking notes!! Maybe I should just open a file on my computer called "LOST questions" :)
Uh, those might be your unanswered niggling mysteries, Memphish. Heheh.
Argh! That's what I'm afraid of Capcom. Actually if the plane never crashes I know where Cindy and the kids are though I still don't know why they got taken.
Do we think Jacob was really making lists of people for the Others to take? And if so why weren't those people he visited in flashbacks last night on the list? Or was Richard and/or Ben making that stuff up?
I think when I rewatch I may watch Seasons 3 and 4, then Seasons 2 and 5 and then rewatch Season 1 to get ready for S6. Would that be proper for the mirror theory Kyle?
BTW, during the hiatus if you want something to do and you haven't done it yet, I'd recommend everyone watch Battlestar Galactica. You can now watch the entire series on DVD with no annoying hiatuses (or is that hiati?) Many of the things you love about LOST in terms of complicated storytelling, big important themes and fascinating characters you'll find in BSG.
re: the mirror theory- yes memphish I think that would be the correct order to watch.
Good questions about Jacob and the lists. Some people he visited were on the list though right? At least some of them were on Klugh's list. I think you asked and I agree: why was Jacob recruiting people? and why these particular people?
And one thing that sticks with me is the theme of "specialness" that we heard so much of in S1 and S2. I can't help but think that Walt and Aaron must fit into this story somewhere.
What about the visions of Libby, Claire, Charlie, etc.? IF MIB was manifesting as Christian, on island and off....then was he also the manifestation of the others as well? Does that mean that both he and Jacob could travel to and from the island? And what/who is MIB that he can take on these different forms?
Raise your hand if you are thankful that Jack's flashback did not feature Jack flashback hair.
Raising hand.
More Jack hair news. Watched Kimmel; Matthew Fox had a S1 Jack hair, well a little longer on top, but still no chest hair. If we start noticing Matthew Fox getting chest hair over the hiatus I think we'll know where this is going.
Popular Mechanics on the finale.Reading now.
Dang, it didn't tell me what I wanted to know which is if you explode that bomb what happens.
Yes! I thought that too memphish, but just forgot to post about it. He does have S1 hair and LOL I noticed his bare chest in the shower scene also. Bet he's gonna itch like crazy when it all starts to grow back! We'll have to start keeping a close eye on his chest!
But I do have to ask why would he have chest hair in one timeline and not in another? What in the world could change to make someone's chest hair disappear? Or is that just a way to distinguish which timeline/loop/whatever he's in?
Raising hand for no Unibomber Jack!
You know Scoutpost, I wonder if sometimes when the Others thought that they were getting word from Jacob, that it sometimes might have been from the MIB, so that at times they were doing the wrong thing instead of the right thing? Because as we know, some of the things that they did, did not exactly seem "good".
Ah true capcom. See now that we know about the MIB, it really changes things. Now we have to go back and look at "good"- remember S1 and 2 we couldn't figure out who was "good" and what exactly defined "good"...well if what you say is true Capcom, then some light may be shed on all that. Really gonna have to go back and watch it all with new eyes.
I also raised my hand that there was no "bad" hair in Jack's FB.
and one last thing re: Jack's hair...I was thinking- odd that Matt Fox would already have gone back and gotten the crew cut so soon after the finale since they won't start shooting S6 for a while...but wasn't there some speculation/rumor that some of the series finale was already filmed? Maybe that's why he already has S1 hair. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.
On the surface it would appear that everyone is dead. Miles and Daniel both said anyone can die in the time lines. But that is a tough one to accept and go with especially with a S6...would that be all flashbacks?
I do like your guess as to S6 being between 1977 and 2004. And I like that the crash can still happen.
Also happy with Jack's hair.
This finale is really opening up a ton of questions. Hopefully, it will keep us busy for many months. (Scoutpost: We definitely have to make that question list! lol)
Trying to think this out by typing. It seems like Widmore off Island remained on Jacob's side. He thought it was ridiculous that Locke should die and thought Locke needed to be on Island to win the war. If Locke had not died and been brought back to the Island by Ben MIB/Slocke would not have succeeded. Does this mean Ellie is on MIB's side since she thought they needed a body to get back? Ellie's fatalism often mirrors MIB's. Are Ellie and Widmore on opposite sides?
Seems like MIB used Yemi and Smokey to take out Eko because he could not be manipulated like Locke and Ben.
And can we conclude that Jacob sent Ilana after Sayid? Does anyone know what language Jacob and Ilana spoke? What did he heal her of? And now I'm starting to wonder about Juliet's sister Rachel. Did Jacob really heal her?
Okay, aftre some thinking, here's some thoughts/questions/speculations:
Did Jacob visit everyone before or after they came to the island? Did he visit them initially when they were kids (some) or did he go back in time? What I'm wondering is, did him going back change some futures? Did he convince Kate not to become a criminal, draw attention to Sawyer's letter so that it is never finished, make Jack reconsider his father's intentions and save their relationship? The only two he visited in "present" day were Sayid and Hurley - because they had roles to play later? The only one who doesn't fit that theory is Locke.
What is in the guitar case? I think that whatever it is, THAT is what really got Hurley back to the island, not Jacob's pep talk.
What is Frank a candidate for?
Illana works for Jacob. I'm thinking she's an ageless, original Other like Richard.
Was getting the O5 on that Ajira flight less about them and more about ensuring Illana a ticket back?
Jacob could have easily talked Ben out of killing him. Ben was wavering, and I think Jacob could have told him he was special, too and all would have been forgiven. Instead, he pushes Ben to kill him with his "what ABOUT you?" comment. Why? Is he like Obi Wan Kenobi, stronger once he's dead?
What loop hole did MIB find? It has to be something more than getting a mortal to kill Jacob, because it doesn't seem like it would have taken him hundreds of years to think that one up. Maybe Jacob has to be betrayed by the current leader? I'm assuming that with Locke actually dead, leadership reverts to Ben.
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
I'm copying and pasting as the comments go on Maven ;) Maybe I can compile them and we can all come up with which one we'd most like answered @ ComicCon- in case we get lucky enough to ask. You know, so we don't end up asking "who does Kate end up with?" LOL
Question: Is Desmond's storyline over? I kept thinking he would end up back on the island,but if we believe the mirror theory...like Kyle said...then neither he nor Juliet should be in S6.
I was thinking of doing the same thing, Scoutpost, when I have some time. (But I shouldn't let it go so long because each comment seems to have a question in it!)
ML: I do think that Jacob visited our Losties from time to time in their lives. We just got a sampling last night of him steering them in their childhood, adulthood and "present day" to make sure they get on 316. I have a feeling we will see more of him in flashbacks in S6.
I don't think we're done with Desmond. Same way that name triggers (Locke) don't always associate directly with the characters to which they're assigned (Locke is not very Lockian), I don't think the Doc Jensen Mirror Season Theory means that because there was no Desmond in S1, there will be no Desmond in S6.
I think it means that there was a significant character introduced at the end of S1/beginning of S2, and a significant character exiting the narrative at the end of S5/beginning of S6.
Been thinking a lot about "Esau," Jacob, Locke, and the Smoke Monster. I think I might have the clue that told us that Locke was not what he appeared to be, post-Ajira 316.
Click on over to the blog for the post.
Anyone else not getting emailed updates to this thread anymore? Or is it just me?
Oh, nevermind on the update thing. They were getting bounced into the Spam folder for some reason. Harumph!
Thanks for the link Kyle...I've been thinking about that scene between Sun and Ben and was making the same conclusion...and thinking the dead Locke shouldn't have been a big shocker last night if I had really listened to the clues.
I hope we see more of Desmond. Otherwise I have to go back and watch that last scene with him and Penny and attach the emotional gravity it deserved. ;)
NY Magazine has compiled a nice list of questions divided into those raised by the finale and those that have been lingering.
I think my brain has officially entered finale overload. I'm going to try to switch it off now and live a couple of hours of real life before plunging into The Office season finale. But fear not! I'm sure I'll be back with more questions tomorrow.
Okay, hi all. I just watched it.
First of all woah! That was awesome.
So we seem to have a clear symbolism of the black/white stones with the skeletons now.
I do think that Jacobs enemy/Fake Locke is indeed smokey. I kinda thought that back in the temple, though I don't think I mentioned here.
With that in mind there seems to be a suggestion that maybe-smokey, in his role as Judge has Judge humanity as flawed and doomed from his conversation with Jacob at the start. While Jacob feels they can redeem themselves.
Now this for me really brilliantly ties in with what we know the purpose of the Dharma initiative is. To change those numbers and stave off the end of the world. So if Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island (especially with the Magnus Hanso link), he almost certainly brought Dharma there (perhaps directly as a result). Maybe he even inspired Valencetti.
Anyway, so as for Smokey. Has he been pretending to be Christian? If so, has he done it all the time? I don't think so. At least the time when he was joined by Claire. But perhaps the one where he helped Locke to leave the island may have been.
I think the guitar was to tip the balance of similar conditions for the flight, perhaps to allow an additional person to come through. Sun didn't make it, but maybe Hurley and the Guitar being there made the numbers needed to have the impact required. Perhaps if he had gone by himself, he wouldn't have time jumped. Then again, I am pretty sure it was Charlie's guitar, the same one he left on the island. That would certainly give Hurley some evidence he wasn't mad.
Okay, now thinking about the Swan's failsafe. In the original timeline, you suppose there was a nuke in there (maybe the nuke)? If so then neutralising the energy source sent Desmond back in his own timeline, I wonder if Juliet will face something similar. Although as she's in the past but before her past who know's what that would mean! Maybe all the past based losties will go back into their own timelines and we will get flashbacks again but with them able to make new decisions due to the power of the energy source. They could all end up re-writing their own history. Interestingly with that, Jins history is obviously linked with Sun, while Sawyer is linked with Locke, because if he stops Lockes dad before he meets him things could turn out quite different (and while I doubt he'd end up as a kid, he may decided to get revenge by getting him caught rather then killing him, stopping him destroying more lives but not lowering to killing him).
Finally, thinking back to the Lost game. While not cannon, the ending of the game (has everyone that cares to play it played it now?) fits in really well with the potential time changing thing and the idea of a mirror season.
Anyway, that's all I've got for now. That's just my initial thoughts.
I guess we have a long time to postulate more.
I feel like I should have said BLAM! at the top of that. Lol.
Yeah, you knew I couldn't turn it off.
Did we see Jacob explicitly insure Hurley and Sayid's return to the Island to undo what MIB did with Locke's body? If the time resets, then Jacob isn't killed by a Slocke-led Ben. Is Jacob one move ahead of MIB?
SHould we call Fake Locke "Focke", like Fenry in season 2. Lol.
Actually Henry is one person who's story we never got to see. But anyway.
Looks like our statue in indeed a Hippo god. Which explains the four toes. It's kinda cool that we had the toe hint so long ago and no one (that I know of) suggested it. Dark UFO suggests Taweret, which makes sense.
Taweret is a goddess of mothers and children and is often seen pregant. She is a protector. But in her aspect as Theoris (polythesic relgions gods often have multiple aspects reflected by different names), she's also known to pop up in the underworld devouring souls and brandishing a knife. Interesting.
According to the egyptian book of the dead (not to be confused with lovecrafts necronomicon), she nourishes the deceased and devours the wicked who are on the way to Hell.
My dad used to have a copy of that book btw. It's about charms to put in the graves of the dead, to help you in the afterlife. Things like a charm to make sure you don't "turn upside down and eat your own feces". Always handy that one. Yuck.
Anyway, Wiki says she is the counterpart of Apep, an evil demon, the deification of darkness and chaos. Usually shown as a serpent and some elaborations even said that he stretched 16 yards in length and had a head made of flint. Okay I can buy that.
Looks like there is lots to think of over the summer.
Just dropping in from my busy world,to say Sad Haitus to all you Loco's.I'm about 50 comments behind,and will be out the door in about the time it took Ben to convince Sun.
Just wanted to say that the conversation with Black and Jacob reminded me of the one between God and Satan; concerning God's servant Job.( the Book of Job.)
On Lost,an interesting look at mankind in general with Jacob's cup being half full,and Black's being half empty.
Till next time;
Bask in the afterglow.
Oh of course Apep is another name for Apophis, I knew it would end up tying in with Stargate :D
Oh yes Taweret, is also important for blessings. Which is interesting as he did say bless/blessing and kept touching people.
Fenris said, "Things like a charm to make sure you don't "turn upside down and..." Ahem. That is hilarious! X-D
Anway, Hi Fenris, and good points.
I like Taweret too, but if I saw correctly in that flash of statue, it looked like it had some serious teeth in its mouth, which would be more alligator-like. But I thought that it looked a lot like the Taweret image that was going around.
I just finished a re-watch and it's still mind-blowing:
It seems Jacob and MIB reluctantly co-exist. I wonder how often they meet up -- face-to-face. Is it only when outsiders appear such as the Black Rock.
It seems Jacob has been bringing people to the island for progress, while MIB thwarts his every move.
Why doesn't Richard sense that it's a fake Locke? He doubts that Locke is special.
Fake Locke can't seem to stop smirking. He became Alex who instructed Ben to follow everything Locke wants him to do.
Juliet looks so forlornly at the Galage sailing away -- her last hope for a get-a-way and a real life.
Was Juliet pregnant? Bernard seems to think so when he offers her tea and she has her hand on her stomach.
Does Fake Locke have Real Locke's memories? (About going to Jacob's Cabin the first time in the scene with Ben.)
The Sawyer/Jack fight was long overdue. But decisions as important as nuking the island is somehow based on all these complicated 'ships.
Fake Locke to Ben (as he hesitates entering the foot): "Things will change once he's gone."
Jacob seems resigned to his fate. But has he manipulated the O5 to change what happened?
Jacob's last words: "They're coming." Is he referring to Ilana's group bringing Locke's body to prove that the live Locke is a fake?
obviously it wasn't jacob in the cabin when ben took locke there the first time. It was man in black. Jacob isn't the one who dislikes technology, it's the man in black that get's pissed because of the flashlight. If jacob brought the black rock and that led to the DI, then he must be pro-technology, he seems to actually exploit the time loop that science created. It must have been MIB that said "help me" to locke. He did it to further Ben's resentment of locke, for actually talking to jacob.
It seemed that MIB was bound in the cabin by the ash circle at some point.
the shadows already had locke's body in the metal crate when they let flocke and ben leave. I think they were resigned to let jacob be killed, thats why they were talking about canidates. They just wanted to make sure that flocke didn't lead the others past that point. I guess it was all about letting Ben make his choice as to whether to kill jacob or not, but there has to be a reason Jacob treated Ben so poorly.
I almost feel like, there is some part of the bad twin/flocke that has retained something of the original locke. Why else would he call out ben about their first cabin visit. Why would ben take locke to the cabin with some bound spirit and try to pass it off as jacob? Ben must have known something would happen as far as the flashlight goes. Although i think that christain may be the same as flocke, i think the fact that christain's corpse has never been found is an important distinction.
i think that the scene with jacob and jack was supposed to parralel the fianl part with juliette. The candy was almost released but got snagged. He gave jack his candy bar and said " all it needed was a little push". I think that the previous time this loop played out that the core to jughead got dropped in there and supercharged the swan. hey encapsulated it in concrete and let the pressure out every 108 minutes. The failsafe key detonated the plutonium core and thus destroyed the pocket of electromagnetic energy. When they went to what was left of the swan in 2004 there was no more magnetic activity happening anymore. Just like the candy machine, julliette was "the push that it needed" to detonate the core 27 years before desmond did it. Which can definetly changes some stuff. If jacob's touch is what attracted the 815'ers to the island,i can still see course correction bringing 815 to the island by other means than the swan and desmond.
was horace working for mib or jacob when he appeared to locke in a dream?
If Richard had doubts about Locke being special, why didn't he ask Jacob instead of asking Jack?
I dont' think they all die and I don't think they reset time. When Desmond turned the failsafe, you'd think that the resulting implosion would have killed anyone inside. Yet, they all lived and the one closest to the energy release went on a time trip. I think something similar will happen with Juliet. Not only did the Losties not die, I think the explosion in the vicinty of the pocket of electromagnetism sent them all to their rightful timeline - 2007. This has no basis in scientific fact, but I think the electromagnetism and the bomb together cancelled out each other's effects while causing the space-time shift for those in the wrong timeline.
When Jacob said "They're coming", was he referring to Ilana's people or to the Losties from 1977 coming back to their correct timeline?
Lostpedia now says the Latin Richard spoke said: "He who will protect/save us all."
A lot of my speculation agrees with yours.
Jacob's "they" could be our Losties. The explosion could instead take them all to the same time. The only objection I have to that theory is that it might be too obvious.
Juliet setting off the bomb means that the show can start absolutely anywhere and be anything next season.
I like naming Jacob's nemesis, Esau, even though it does fit acurately with the story in the Bible.
"Esau's" presence brings up a host of new possibilities. Many of the actions attributed to Jacob could really have been Esau. It could have been Esau that was trapped in the cabin and made stuff fly and appeared to Locke. In fact the whole time Locke really could have been connecting with Esau instead of Jacob. Christian could be Jacob.
The good and bad thing with Jacob and Esau is very interesting. Just what are these two characters meant to represent? Here's my offering. Remember "Jacob loves you?" So Jacob is willing to give second chances and third chances and fourth chances. Everything until its over is "progress." Esau is angry. His complaint against humanity is "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt.. It always ends the same." (Thanks, BS)
So here's the thing - Jacob, who shows mercy, is right. Esau, who is angry with humanity's destructive tendencies, is right. And they are both also wrong. I wouldn't want Jacob for a friend because he doesn't care if people hurt each other. It's all "progress" to him. Esau is wrong because he shows no forgiveness. I don't think good and evil apply here. I think TPTB are asking us to wrestle with the tension between love and justice. The possible link between Non-Locke and Smokey - the judge, jury, and executioner - would also support this idea.
Ah! I see Fenris has had similar thoughts. Hi, Fenris!
That should be Christian could be Esau. We're all thinking that the "war that is coming" is between Jacob and Esau, right?
My questions have dried up over the course of the day. The only one that lingers for me is will poor Juliet survive this somehow? Will Sawyer ever love someone that he doesn't lose.
So, you know, par for the course for me.
Until 2010. . .
Do we ever love someone that we never lose or are never lost to? If we don't destroy it first, then nature does. Another question is can Sawyer lose someone he loves and find a way to be whole?
Well, I think the poor guy deserves to love someone until he's the one that dies next time. . . sheesh, no wonder he had a death wish when this show started.
Twinkle, I like your thoughts about Esau and Jacob.
Another thought that crossed my mind was yin-yang. One can't exist without the other. So does that mean that Esau couldn't kill Jacob without also destroying himself and if so, how does having Ben do it circumvent that?
Nice question! How would yin kill yang or vice versa?
The biggest problem in my mind is that there can be no satisfactory solution, because in reality the tension between love and justice, or, if you follow Eastern thought, yin and yang cannot be reconciled or destroyed.
So how are they going to explain this "war," explore its depths, without a trite oversimplified ending to the series?
I read a good book last month which explored this tension more satisfactorily than anything else I'd read so far.
One last throwback comment. Sawyer, in Season 1, "Confidence Man," upon getting kissed by Kate:
"It's about time. I made this birthday wish four years ago."
*Lostiit - We already going forward in time, we are constantly moving in time, but at same velocity of everyone.
The statue is sobek: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sobeka.htmLook the face the position and the cross.
More good ideas everyone! Awesome.
Lost2010, maybe we will see Juliet again. Since everything went white, perhaps the bomb didn't actually go off, and it was really something that happened with the Casimir energy like what happened to Des. Then all the Losties turn up "somewhere" together, and Jules and James run to each other in super-slo-mo. ??? :o)
Can't wait to see what Zort thinks on Monday, heheh.
P.S. On the Aslan train of thought (i.e. giving oneself to death to rise victorious) maybe the black logo at the end turning to white means that in S1-5 the MIB had the upper hand trying to ruin it for the humans (thus the black/bad logo), but in S6 maybe Jacob the phoenix will rise and more good will happend to the humans. So, the white ending maybe means that the tide has turned for the good? I'm just brainstorming here, not saying that's what it is. :-)
I think along those same lines Capcom, but i have it reversed. that black was Jacob's run of power and the white will be MIB return to power. I cant explain why but i just dont trust Jacob.
I know what you mean Bigdog, it's like how the Bible says that the devil cunningly comes to you via everything that you think is beautiful and friendly, and looks good on the outside but then....he's the lord of lies
Although I just can't get that evil smirk that Slocke gave Sun when he was lying to her, out of my mind. The first time I saw him do that it gave me shivers! His smile is just so forced and sickeningly sweet, and then he tells Ben that he has no intention of doing what he told her. Cringe :-p
My friend Wayne suggested that we reread that comic Mystery Tales again, since some stories there are so similar and all. Here it is in case anyone wants to do that: http://www.mysterytales40.com/
Twinkle said: "The biggest problem in my mind is that there can be no satisfactory solution, because in reality the tension between love and justice"
The solution between this in Christianity is the God-Man Jesus, both fully God and fully Man, living a perfect life and giving it up to pay for the imperfection of the rest of us. The question as this relates to LOST is do we/Jacob/MIB have that person who can likewise sacrifice him/herself to lead to a resolution. Answer -- not yet at least.
I still feel convinced that the reason we saw Jacob with post-O6 return Sayid and Hurley is that he is outfoxing MIB. I think that what happens in the 1977 timeline is his loophole to counter MIB's loophole. Biblical Jacob is a trickster, a deceiver, like Odysseus. And the tapestry is a quote from the Odyssey.
As for whether or not Jacob is good or bad, I do think it's up for grabs. In 2 Corinthians 11:14 Paul says that: "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."
the whole black/white or jacob/MIb dualism is much like the white and black lodge from twin peaks that i mentioned before. One lodge had the dwarf, the other lodge had the giant. The lesson of twin peaks and taosim among other eastern religion is that yin and yang are all part of the same thing or on twin peaks the white and black lodge are"one in the same". The cosmagonic wonton is a term i used to refer to the yin/yang makeup of the entire universe. One can never forget that there is a spot of black in the white and a spot of white in the black. Perspective is the key, just like time and the tralmaphradorians from slaughterhouse five look at a timeline as a whole happening all at the same time. One misses the point to look and focus on yin or yang, rather take a step back and look at the symbol as a whole.
lets not forget in the bible Ben is the heir of jacob. Almost makes me think that the person that kills jacob replaces him. I agree that killing jacob might have been "the push needed" to help julliette detonate the bomb and thus end the time loop and let the '77 crew come back to 2007.
I see your comments Rogers. You never know with Blogger though.
Memphish said: "The solution between this in Christianity..." Very well said, Memphish. :-)
On the question of whether Jacob is good, the words on the tapestry that he's working on are pretty benevolent: "may the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires" and "may the gods grant thee happiness". Although, to add to the confusion, the first one could mean "be careful what you wish for" by way of all that your heart desires even if it kills ya. :o)
The Lostpedia link is: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob's_tapestry
I am glad that we will have many months to digest this episode--we will need it! Almost every scene had something in it worthy of discussion.
Some initial thoughts/predicitons about Jacob and (insert favorite name for other entity here):
- It's possible that when the series is done, the opening scene of The Incident may turn out to be the very first, chronologically.
- Every season takes the story of LOST to a larger, more epic scale and scope. I wonder now if Jacob and Black (as I will call him) will end up being the highest-level powers revealed on the show. Or, will Season 6 reveal an even greater power (the will of the Island?) that made Jacob & Black who and what they are, as well as establishing the "rules" that they choose to or must obey.
- It's also possible that The Incident might end up being the only episode where Jacob & Black share a scene together (well, two scenes actually, counting the final scene with Jacob and Locke 2.0). If Jacob is dead and Black can manifest himself in other ways, we may never see them together in their 1800's garb again. Wouldn't that be just like LOST--to have the two main forces in the show, who are in some way propelling all of the action that we have seen--yet have them share so little screen time together.
- I don't think either Jacob or Black will end up being the representation of "pure good" or "pure evil". It's like LOST to make things more nebulous than that.
- I think it's more likely that Jacob & Black will end up representing two "sides". The "white" side will have certain characteristics (such as a belief in free will, a belief that humanity can/should be steered toward a certain end), while the "black" side will have opposite characteristics (such as a fatalistic belief and a disdain for humanity).
- The war that's coming will likely be between these black/white sides. It'll probably be written in such a way that different people will root for one side versus another. Maybe neither side can ultimately win, as one cannot exist without another (as some have mentioned on the blog earlier).
- Right now I doubt whether TPTB will reveal the exact nature of Jacob & Black. Are they ageless humans, gods, demons, angels, you name it? The show will probably never directly answer this. Unless a greater power is revealed. If that is the case, the origin of Jacob & Black may be shown, but not the origin of the higher power.
Enough ramblings for now. I just had to start writing this stuff down to get it out of my swirling head!
So anyone think there was anything in the Moses comment (and fake Lockes glance after it)? Moses was associated with the law and therefore with judgement and was a witnesses at the transfiguration as well as possibly one of the two witnesses in the book of revelations. But this would make more sense if Jacob of Elijah, which I think would be strange. At first I thought there was something, but now, not so much except maybe as a little easter egg/red herring from the writers. Anyway, food for thought.
"Right now I doubt whether TPTB will reveal the exact nature of Jacob & Black. Are they ageless humans, gods, demons, angels, you name it? The show will probably never directly answer this."
I have to agree with that one. I don't think we will have a definitive answer on their identities. Perhaps it does not even really matter.
My first thought on the Moses thing Fenris was oh no not again. Naomi called Jack Moses in the Season 3 finale. I figured it was just a callback.
But if we want to get all Biblical, Moses is in some way the perfect name for Locke. He spent all that time leading his people to the Promised Land and then died before they could go in because of a prideful act he committed. Similar to our Locke who died before his people could get to the Promised Land of No More Jacob.
I also guess we know now why Slocke wasn't interested in getting his people back since the 815ers in '77 aren't really his people.
Hey Dark Tower readers. Is what Slocke's up to the same as Roland in The Drawing of the Three? Is MIB in Locke's head (though apparently figuratively rather than literally) while MIB is in there as well? I can't remember if Roland took over those bodies or shared them with their original occupants.
The Sobek theory is interesting. The statue lacks the Uraeus (and instead holds a second Ankh) and the big head dress thingy, but it seems those may have been added later as he became associated with new things. So perhaps the statue could be an early form of Sobek.
According to wiki
"He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part". Interesting. Against this though is the toes. Crocs have five toes, so even in a human form not sure why a statue of him would be given only four.
Though I am wondering now if the statue is meant to be ambiguous enough to not be a specific diety but potentially a few.
Memphish, yes, Jesus does show us a good solution to the problem, at least part of a good solution. In Christianity God's anger flows out of God's love. Because he loves us, he won't just sit by giving us extra chances all the time and calling it "progress." He will put a stop to evil, slowly, partly, working through humans now, but eventually all together. In Jesus, he made major progress towards accomplishing that.
This hits on one of the ways Eastern thought differs from what the Bible teaches. Yin and Yang are two parts of the same whole, one black, one white but with a spot of each within each. In the Bible there is no evil whatsover in God and evil can be defined as the absence of God. God has to play this great balancing act between his love for us and his desire to end evil and suffering which resulted in him sending Jesus. Usually people don't understand how very greatly those views of the world differ.
The creators of Lost though don't subscribe to any one religious system but are interweaving them. It wouldn't surprise me if the conflict they want to make is not between evil and good but between tolerance and justice. Both are good but both need limits. The perfect balance between them is love, tough, compassionate love, but who knows what that looks like in any given situation.
The conflict between tolerance and justice is one that runs strong in our society. Accountability and responsibility or forgiveness and grace? War or peace? Let the industry go under or bail it out? Make illegal aliens follow the proper channels to become citizens or grant it free? Should we arrest the homeless or provide for them? etc... A lot of the things we argue over are about relative quantitities justice and tolerance.
Ack! I could write a book on this! Lost just brings it out of me. I just don't think TPTB will argue good vs. evil. Tolerance vs. justice seems more likely to me.
One thing that bugged me about the finale right off is how perfectly Jacob and "Esau" were speaking American English. Usually accents have at least meant a little something what with all the Korean, French, Russian, etc... we've seen. It's not like sci-fi where you just suspend belief that everyone can communicate. So why were these two guys speaking perfectly American English as the Black Rock was approaching the island? If it means anything, I wonder if TPTB were highlighting the spiritual dimension of the characters, as if the audience were listening to the conversation not with their ears but with their spirits. Ok, that's hokey, but why else did they do that?
Thanks for the link on the tapestry, Capcom. I found it interesting that the eye in the sky was actually touching the people below. The eye and rays thing is common in Egyptian art and usually represents Ra, right? Ah!! Wikipedia calls it the eye of Horus, also known as the eye of Ra. I don't think I've ever seen the hand-rays actually touching the people in that way. They usually seem more passive. The tapestry is reminiscent of Michelangelo's Creation of Adam.
I also thought it was interesting that on either side there was a king seated. IMO, they would be Jacob and "Esau" which means the tapestry points to another being (The Eye of Horus) even higher. Wouldn't it be funny if the "supreme being" of the island really was Horace all along? Like Jacob and Richard visited our Losties so Horace visited Ben and ensured his birth? He just pretends to be human and die in the purge to see what Ben would do or something. Besides the confines of using the same actor, Horace didn't seem to age a whole lot from 1964 to 1992. Say, where was Horace in the last episode?
Memphis - I think your right about Moses being a good comparison to Locke. That would explain Slockes look when Ben mentioned it.
Okay so next thing. The broken line of ash and the reason Jacobs chosen burned down the shack. I see the ash has been touched on, but not hugely. I wonder if there is significance over the use of fire?
Also Illyana said "he isn't there, hasn't been in a long time. Someone else is using it".
I know people have said the hut was for Jacobs enemy and he was held there by the ash, but if Jacobs chosen went right for the hut could it also not mean Jacob could be at both and it was he they were heading for? Also the chosen said about the box "we need to show it to somebody", we may have assumed he meant the Others, but perhaps they meant Jacob.
So if that was the case, did the ash keep things out of the shack instead of in? I think so. Though, if the enemy needed a loophole and couldn't kill Jacob himself, why did Jacob need the protection of the ash? Unless it was simply to stop the enemy from posing as Jacob. Perhaps that explains why they had to destroy the shack as it could no longer be trusted as a place to speak to Jacob.
Very interesting Memphish, Fenris, and Twinkle.
Twinkle, here's a bigger cap of the tapestry, with Ben.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/Sg2A0RgFS_I/AAAAAAAAuuw/zWNVQOVMc2k/s1600-h/screeb00001.jpg
Thanks. See this is how the rays are usually depicted: http://theoldgiftshop.com/images/replica/E077S2.jpg
They don't interact much. That tapestry looks very different.
As for the ash, it is very confusing. Maybe they weren't going to see Jacob originally but to see "Esau/Black." Or maybe Jacob asked them to check on the shack to see if E/B was still there before reporting to him. Have we seen how the ash circle became broken? Lostpedia says that Darlton's commentary on the S 3 DVD stated the ash circle was "a a bit of a kind of protection or magic or kind of containment. Ben is afraid to touch it. In a certain way, part of the idea here is that Ben has some powers over Jacob, and Jacob has some powers over Ben, and there is a bit of a stasis."
Way to walk yourself through the ash circle Fenris.
Twinkle your comments about tolerance and justice are great and I think very on the right track when we remember that the show was created in the heyday of a post-9/11 world. Those conflicts were almost certainly very present in the minds of the creators as they conceived the show.
And if anyone here finds that interesting watch Battlestar Galactica. Plug, plug. They do a great job with similar themes.
Tx for the link Twinkle!
I'm wondering if Ricardus even knows that the MIB even exists?! That would help launch my thought that sometimes when the Others thought that they were hearing from Jacob, that they were actually hearing from the MIB. Not that I think that's the way it is, but for now that's the way I'm filing it in my head so that I can grasp all the rotten things that the Others did sometimes -- cause the devil made them do it. ;-)
P.S. That's an awesome site Twinkle (the Old Gift Shop)!
Just realized the Others have no name for Smokey and we have no name for MIB. Coincidence?
X-D Good point!
Off topic
lost character sighting...
Ethan Rom sited in the finale of Prison break.
So Jacob created Richard to protect the leader of the Others. But Richard has to follow the orders of the leader. So when Slocke says I'm the leader and you will take us to Jacob, Richard has to obey just like he had to obey Ellie when she ordered him to help Jack and Sayid with the bomb. Richard followed that order, but then knocked Ellie out following his ultimate order from Jacob to protect the leader, presumably from the influence of Slocke and whatever incarnation he might choose. (Side note I wonder if the body we see MIB in in the opening is his real body or another borrowed one.) Richard doesn't protect Slocke or Ben from going to see Jacob because he doesn't realize either needs protecting until it's too late. Now I wish I had been rooting for Ilana. :-)
So Jacob off Island encounters people who don't know him, i.e. our 815ers, but then he also visits Ilana who does know exactly who he is and is already on his side. I'd have to assume Bram and the others who know the answer to the shadow of the statue question similarly know who Jacob is. Does this mean that Ilana and Bram and their group are people who have previously survived the Island and were sent back to the real world by Jacob?
Just realized something potentially huge!
We've already seen Sun and Jin's wedding one time, in Season 1 "In Translation" and what the two of them are wearing is completely different from what they are wearing in "The Incident."
First from "Translation" here's Sun's Wedding Dress, then her reception dress, and notice Jin's morning suit.
Now in "The Incident" we have Sun's wedding dress, her receptiondress and Jin's suit
I think at least some of the flashes we saw are resets. I think Kate doesn't kill her dad, she's good like she told Jacob she would be. Sawyer doesn't finish the letter to Anthony Cooper. Sun and Jin don't drift apart. Jack didn't tell us first time around it was his dad who came up with count to 5 because 1st time around he didn't. I'm not sure about Locke, Sayid and Hurley's flash or Juliet's though.
I don't understand why Slocke doesn't seem to know where Jacob is. It didn't seem like a secret in the opening. Or did Jacob just let MIB find him then?
Richard also says the leader can request an audience with Jacob. Why didn't Ben request that audience? I also want to know if MIB was the one who led Ben to oust Widmore through some version of Island visions.
My bad. Ben did ask for audiences, but was told to wait. I almost wonder whether or not Jacob can't directly influence people on the Island itself.
Great catch on the different wedding clothes Memphish! And, Sun also has a gigantic pushup bra on in the first pic. :o)
P.S. I wrote this over at EyeMSick on their train of thought, so I'll just paste it here FWIW: If RA did know about MIB, why the heck wasn't he more suspicious of Locke? If he's known about the threat of MIB all along, why wasn't he more alert to possible deception and threat? You'd think that RA would be privy to at least some of the facts about any nemesis or opposition that Jacob would have, but it looked at if he was clueless. Too clueless, even if TPTB were trying to throw us off. If fooling us was all that RA's naivete was about, it was kinda clunky writing, IMO.
Additionally, I posted over there what you discovered about the wedding clothes Memphish. Maybe we all can come up with a clue about the reason for that. ???
Something I posted to Twitter, and is right in line with what you noticed, Memphish. What if Juliet's flashback wasn't a flashback, and the line she repeated to Sawyer about breaking up wasn't a repeat of what she said as a child, but that the scene with her parents was post-Jughead in a new reality where she wasn't born in the Seventies? Because there's no way that house was early to mid-70s.
Well I'll sure agree to the period representation seeming off!! Juliet would have to almost be in her twenties to fit into that anachronistic setup! I haven't rechecked it on playback yet, but I was VERY surprised to learn that it was Juliet's family.
Kyle, I heard someone else mention that Juliet's mom should have had much bigger hair had it been the 80s, but here's the question. When do you think Juliet was born then?
Exactly, the hair was way off, for one thing. X-D
Lostpedia triva says that she's supposed to be 10 when that scene happens. ??
The scene with Juliet's parents is so weird it is really bugging me. First Juliet guesses that they are going to move again, but instead her parents are divorcing and choosing to live apart even though they love each other. Is this some greater sacrifice her parents are making? Have we seen her dad somewhere before? Or are her parents just full of it. It's such a weird thing to tell your daughters that they still love each other, but you can't be with the one you love. (So honey, love the one you're with.)
There might be a new ARG brewing: Who is Simeon Hobbes?". This came from the Lostpedia twitter feed.
Oh my gosh everybody check out the Lostpedia blog about Simeon Hobbes!!! Looks like a new ARG, and they're comparing it to TLE!!!!!!!!! I really hope this is not bogus.
Wow there are some people to follow on twitter and a youtube video posted on the TLE site with a morse code message. And one of the people on twitter has a profile pic that looks like a glyph from TLE.
I think her parents are fullabull Memphish, but it's so weird, that maybe there is something else there. Just like J&S's wedding.
ARG? Whoa, that's neat! I hope that it's not something unrelated like that cool Who Is Ethen Haas thing that turned out to not be Cloverfield.
The youtube video was posted by TheLostExperience who joined in May 2006 and who had posted all the Gary Troup videos. It's a constellation with morse code. The translation is already posted on Lostpedia. It leads you to a person who is on twitter. fingers crossed!
That video for it is pretty cool.
Heheh, we still didn't get interview parts 5-9 of Gary Troup yet. :o)
Hope that it's not a fan thing.
I know Jo of Jopinionated was working on something, though why anyone fan or PTB would launch anything so soon after the finale boggles my mind. Y'all figure it out and I'll catch up. I'd rather ruminate on the finale a little longer.
And speaking of I have no idea what to make of Christian and Claire. I think the Christian that told Locke to turn the wheel was MIB. And he refused to touch Locke. I wonder if MIB can't touch people whereas Jacob clearly can. It doesn't make sense to me though that MIB would want Claire to stay but Aaron to go. Also, if Christian was the MIB does this mean Claire isn't dead because he can't be two places at once? That'd be cool except for where the heck has she been for the past 3 or 30 years?
I don't know, good Qs. But if Claire is dead, maybe Smokey/MIB can be two people at the same time? If he was Claire, it sure would explain her smartass attitude in the cabin and not caring about Aaron. And if he was Christian, I can see why he'd say that he spoke for Jacob, so they wouldn't keep looking for Jacob. Altho, I don't understand why she stayed with Aaron and the guys until CS showed up if she was Smokey. Maybe Smokey killed her after she left with CS? Yikes.
I passed on the ARG word at Big's and someone there is wondering if that Bennu bird is the Hurley Bird! Now that would be cool. :-D
Remember, TLE began with the Hanso commercial at the end of the finale for that season, right?
Yes, Capcom, TLE started right at the end of the season. They're saying this might be "real" because the video is on the TLE youtube account. I'm following the 2 twitter accounts: Simeon Hobbes and Epithet Alpha. Alpha also is following me (although I don't really do anything on twitter).
This was posted 22 min. ago on twitter by epithetalpha:
QW5kIFdpdGggVGhpcyBGaXJlIEkgU
Okay, de-coders, get to work!
I'd say the speed this is moving at on a weekend means this is fan generated. When the ARG began in S2 it began with a commercial on the show, and had been talked about by TPTB in advance. I know if anyone at ABC or that Aussie firm is working on it, they don't work weekends if the past is anything to go by.
I'm tending to agree with you, Memphish. But I'll follow it and see where it leads for now.
Lombo said (on Lostpedia blog)...
And With This Fire I Purify
translated to Base64 !! yeah !!
I just swam through a river of comments to get here;and say Happy Birthday Mrs David A. Dean.
Also if you are a Coldplay fan....
http://www.coldplay.com/lrlrl/lr.html
New ARG??????
I'm still digesting The Incident,but will check it out tomorrow.
You have a very good point there about the later ARGs not working on the weekends. Didn't we get some things on the w/e for the first one though? I can't even remember back that far.
Well, we shall be cautiously optimistic, heheh.
I know I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole in case this is bogus...cautiously optimistic is right.
Yes...in TLE we did get weekend stuff. You never knew when the stuff would drop with TLE. It was with find815 and the one last summer that nothing happened on the weekend.
And yes, TLE started in May with the S2 finale.
So.....guess we'll see.
That bio on the twitter account looks like it should be run through a decoder: "It is tedious to tell again tales already plainly told." :o)
I'm not sure how twitter works. I now have lostargs following me, as well as this epithetalpha. Some are saying that they don't if the TLE youtube channel is official or not.
If this is fake, someone has really done a fancy job of it. But we've seen good fakes before. :-p
People are sending epithetalpha direct message on twitter saying "And With This Fire I Purify", and got a DM back saying: "Are you a candidate? Await further instructions May 18."
I just sent the same message.
I just don't know what to think. I want this to be real...but I'm starting to have the feeling that this may be one of those hoax's.
Maven I just went to twitter to do what you did and it says "candidate applications full. Await review."
I have my fingers crossed!
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