Wednesday, April 08, 2009

Dead is Dead - Season 5, Episode 12



Ben Linus: Menacing in Cargo Pants.


In tonight's episode, Ben feels the need to atone for his past sins, so he tries to summon the smoke monster to pass judgment.


We're guessing this is not going to go well, for anyone involved.

297 comments:

1 – 200 of 297   Newer›   Newest»
Sayid'sgirl said...

first?

Ashlee said...

Did he just say, "Jacob wanted to die"?

Melissa_Lossa said...

No, he said Jacob wanted it done.


Okay, the first five minutes of this episode rocked.

Black Swan said...

fourth!!

Takes a Village said...

Great Opening.I

Black Swan said...

LOL, Ben Menacing in Cargo Pants

Black Swan said...

where is everybody else??

Ashlee said...

Thank you Melissa. I was distracted by a bird :P

Sayid'sgirl said...

Really. The Unusuals is using the numbers?

Melissa_Lossa said...

Only Ben can make cheerful sound so creepy.

DeDJeZTeR said...

Thats not what she said happened.... where was the pillar of black smoke?

Takes a Village said...

Speak softly and carry a fire stick.

Black Swan said...

I love Ben!! LOL!!!

Black Swan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lost2010 said...

I love Ben. (Surely I can comment on the current episode without slipping into spoilage)

Black Swan said...

LOL, lost2010!!! ROFL!!!

Melissa_Lossa said...

Holy crap!

So much for Caesar, I guess.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Is it just me, or did Ben seem to recognize the name Christian?

Takes a Village said...

John gave the little Keamy wave.

DeDJeZTeR said...

John "Casper the friendly ghost" Locke... lol

lost2010 said...

So, is that younger darker haired guy the same Charles Widmore as the one sitting around the campfire? Cuz that doesn't look like the same guy Juliet and Sawyer met in the jungle?

But I still love Ben.

Black Swan said...

I like that TAV, the little Keamy wave.. lol!

Ellen said...

This is really good so far! I am so glad I only saw one little spoiler (the scene we just saw!) Now the rest will be totally surprising!
xxoo

Black Swan said...

It looks like they've used 3 Charles Widmores from different ages

lost2010 said...

And creepy with the RISK board. . . guess this is just 3 years of disuse not an alternate timeline. . .

Black Swan said...

Did you catch how Richard and the other others looked at Ben like he was a God when he got Widmore to back down?

Melissa_Lossa said...

I love how Locke is just screwing with Ben.

Melissa_Lossa said...

So, confirmation that Ellie is not Penny's mother, like some people thought, right?

lost2010 said...

Is that Locke or the smoke monster?

Melissa_Lossa said...

What the heck was John up to in the jungle?

lost2010 said...

So you aren't supposed to have children with outsiders?? Is that what you guys got?

Melissa_Lossa said...

Ooh, good question, lost2010.

Black Swan said...

Yes, lost2010, Charles broke the rules by hooking up with a mainlander and having a half-breed kid.. lol!

Black Swan said...

I keep going back to my idea from 2 years ago that Ben is getting played, but it's so hard to tell because he's such a liar.

lost2010 said...

BS - Well, I didn't think that was it. . .but that's how they made it sound.

PS - The spoiler stuff I read was shippy stuff. . .so I should be able to freely comment on this one it looks like.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Do you notice how much Widmore and Ben sound alike?
They use the same lines about what in the best interest of the island.

Black Swan said...

I should say that Ben always was 'played'

DeDJeZTeR said...

This is gonna get good!!!!!

DeDJeZTeR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lost2010 said...

Darn it. . . he didn't die.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Yeah!!

Ashlee said...

Well that's a relief.

Takes a Village said...

Whew!

lost2010 said...

For one brief shining moment. . . I was fully satisfied with Lost. . .LOL

Black Swan said...

little Charlie is so cute! I'm glad none of them got hurt!

It seems Ben needs enlightenment as much as the rest of the Losties

Ellen said...

Yeah! LOL...me too Lost2010!!
xxoo

Sayid'sgirl said...

I guess they're getting tired of showing Ben get beat up. That wasn't much of a beat down. I expected more from Ben's injuries.

Oh well at least the Hume's are safe. For now.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Oh god - my heart almost stopped there for a second! Thank god the Humes are all okay!

lost2010 said...

Why won't Desmond just die?

Arghhhhhhh!!!!!!

I need a new hobby.

Sayid'sgirl said...

The island needs him.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Is she an other?

Ashlee said...

Oh I don't like this at all. That was cruel.

lost2010 said...

I really really do need to get a new hobby. . .

DeDJeZTeR said...

hmmmmmmm. Thats all I have to say about that.

Black Swan said...

I loved it!!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Smokey Alex.
So how long before Ben goes back on his word?

Black Swan said...

Eko got 'judged' too before smokey came back for him

DeDJeZTeR said...

SG - I give him three hours.

lost2010 said...

Ruined. . . it's ruined. . .

Ben answering to Locke. . .

Desmond getting the jump on Ben because he had a moment of compassion. . .

Sigh. . .ruined.

Kevin said...

That was a fantastic episode. I'll have to get cracking on those Egyptian Hieroglyphs. Wow.

Kevin

Sayid'sgirl said...

What lies in the shadow of the statue is the temple. Right.
She must be an original inhabitant.
At least that's how I see it.

Takes a Village said...

ABC will load up on the Lost promos during The Unusuals.That was such a good episode.Alex/Smokey
let him live.Mr Ecko blew his chance I think.

Sayid'sgirl said...

lol Ded

This was great. The Hume's survived. Ben finally put in his place.

And more mystery with Ilana.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Yikes, what's Ilana's deal?

Smokey Alex was really creepy.

Was that an ancient smokey communing with Anubis in the images above the grate?

Black Swan said...

Kevin, yes.. get cracking on those hieroglyphs! I'm pretty sure that was anubis there, right above the smokie vents

Sayid'sgirl said...

Next week looks good to.
Which reminds me, where's memphish?

Melissa_Lossa said...

Everybody crowd around lost2010 for a group hug. Soothing voices... it's okay..... :)

Sayid'sgirl said...

BS
Yeah it was Anubis and it looked like Smokie was there with him.

memphish said...

I'm a little disappointed in the episode, but frankly a part of that is the fact that our local affiliate was having technical difficulties so I didn't get HD and the sound track was skipping.

I think I suffered from what I might in fact suffer from the rest of the series and that's the answers just not being as much fun as the questions.

The hair in the episode was out of control. I think it calls for a return from the Dharmalars just to discuss the hair issues. The Middle-Aged Charles was ridonculous on every level. Can they not get people with accents to accept a trip to Hawaii? Dude had about 3 lines and each one was in a different accent.

I'll admit that the Penny scene got to me. Thank goodness the Island isn't done with Desmond.

I did like how the Smoke became Alex like it became Yemi and kicked Ben's butt around, but then he repented.

I also seriously hope that Juliet killed Ilana on the outrigger. She and her storyline have got to go. I guess she works for Widmore? Was her question the "what did one snowman say to the other equivalent?" Who cares.

Black Swan said...

Yeah, Melissa... what's up with Ilana? Are they just going all whacky now that they've got guns (kinda happened that way with the 815ers) or was there an agenda from the get-go?

melissa.. lol, anubis; jinx!

Capcom said...

Be sure to let us know what you find Kevin! :-D

Takes a Village said...

Checking out till tomorrow..So much to talk about this week.
Good night everyone.

memphish said...

Sayid's Girl -- I even watched the preview because I needed a little something something after that episode. Kind of like you last week I think.

The episode did fill in a lot of holes.

Do we now think that the Purge took place pre or post Alex baby snatching? I guess it could be post given that Ben brought Alex back to the yurts, and it's possible that the Frenchies landed on the Hostile side of the line and never saw the DI and vice versa.

I'm not sure where I stand on the sickness after that episode though. And I'm disappointed we didn't get to see how little Ben was saved. I think that's what disappoints me most of all. I was perfectly content to stay in 1977.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Swan, yeah I'd say she had an agenda from the get-go. There's no way she just HAPPENED to bring Sayid on that flight. I think he was her ticket to the island.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Tell me how you really feel memphish. ;)
I don't feel so bad for last week now.

It's okay we can't all like all the episodes. This one didn't fufill you.

Capcom said...

'Nite Village!

Well I was blown away tonight...I've been waiting for this episode for...so...long! *sniff* I'd hug it if I could. :o)

I wonder what Des had in his grocery bag that could sheild him from the bullet?! Did Penny tell him to bring home some kevlar oven mitts?

memphish said...

I still don't get the whole why Widmore can't come back thing. If he wants back why didn't he come with the Freighter? Or at least meet it when they did find the Island? Makes no sense to me.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I wanted to see how Ben was saved too. And the "sickness" doesn't jive with me either.

Black Swan said...

Melissa, that's what I was thinking.

capcom, I LOVED this episode, too!
I think a can of corn saved Des, don't ask me why, just the first thing I thought of.. LOL!

g'nite, TAV!

Capcom said...

Maybe if you get banished your magnetism becomes an opposite pole of the island's and you keep getting repelled when you get too close? j/k sorta

memphish said...

I'm definitely going to rewatch tomorrow. Maybe online so that the picture quality is better than what I had tonight. The skipping soundtrack was a huge distraction.

I think I mostly liked the current day stuff, except that Ilana. Hate her now. And is Cesar really dead? That's it? And where'd the guns come from? And what's that crate? Is this the next set of mercs?

But like I said, if it is then why doesn't Widmore just come himself. Is he really a 60+ year old guy whose going to take the ball home so that no one else can play with it?

And I really, really didn't like the Dorothy in the tornado feel to the Smokey vs. Ben scene. It looked so cheesy.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Night TAV
capcom lol kevlar oven mitts.

Yeah why can't Widmore come back? Did he need to kill someone and come back with them?

Capcom said...

Yes try again Memphish, since you had such a bad time of it tonight, maybe you'll enjoy it a little more? :-o

Sayid'sgirl said...

I think the guns were in the crate. They do seem like the next group of merc.
I'm with you memphish I hate Ilana too. Also wondered if Ceasar is dead.

Capcom said...

I just have one negative thing to say....I hope that we don't have to relive THAT dock scene over again 4 times like the other one. :-p

Oh yeah, and I also was disappointed that we didn't get to see/know how Bennie got fixed up.

Capcom said...

Ohhhhhh, I see, the next merc wave is Ilana and co. Wow. I wonder. That Widmore is a tenacious bugger, if so!

memphish said...

Now don't get me wrong, this was no "He's Our You" but I just didn't enjoy it as much as I wanted to.

And I'm finding Ben to be pretty unredeemable. The way he started in on Cesar to take out Locke really ticked me off. Then he wants to kill Penny in front of her child, and would have, probably, but for Desmond and his can of corn of steel. Blindly following Locke under penalty of death by daughter shaped smoke doesn't work as redemption for me. Ben needs to put someone other than himself and his Island position first, and he's still not there yet.

acewebguy said...

I thought it was a great episode.

My thoughts:

Widmore cannot come back to the island because he broke the island's rules, so the island IS done with him. Also, it seems as though he was making decisions based on his ideals and not the islands (ie - killing Alex)

The question that Ilana asked seemed to be a code question to identify people from the plane that were part of her cult/group/posse. The wording of it also seems to jive with the whole ancients vibe of the orginal inhabitants. I think she may be a descendant of them.


I always thought the monster judged that Eko deserved to live, but eko decided he did not deserve to live anymore, and provoked his own death. Sort of a "suicide by smoke monster"

lost2010 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Melissa_Lossa said...

mempish - ha, ha - I had the same Wizard of Oz thought about the smokey scene!

acewebguy said...

I just wish we could have gotten a glimpse of the Temple.

Melissa_Lossa said...

I also laughed at Ben summoning smokey by pulling the stopper out of the drain. Very odd.

And how does that big secret room on the front of Ben's house not sow from the outside?

memphish said...

So research types, I guess we've confirmed that the statue is Anubis? Is there a lost Egyptian city or Island myth out there somewhere. It seems pretty clear that we're dealing with straight Egyptian right?

memphish said...

What I don't understand ML is how Dharma built a house around that door covered in hieroglyphs.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I know I thought that whole drain plug thing was a little odd. And "I'll be outside"
Of course I kept waiting for something to grab him.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Good point, memphish!

I'd like to know if Horace occupied that house before the Purge.

acewebguy said...

When Ben moved the Others back into Dharmaville, do you think he build his house over a entrance to the monster's lair?

If not, then that would mean that the DI knew more about the smoke monster than we thought. Also, whose house would it nave been pre-purge? Horace's?

Melissa_Lossa said...

I was thinking about how scary it would be to summon smokey and then turn your back on that pit to crawl back out.

acewebguy said...

Funny Memphish - I was writing my question as you were posting yours...

LOST minds think alike...

Black Swan said...

me, too, Sayid'sgirl!

I just keep getting the feeling Richard really wanted Widmore out of there and Ben helped him to do it. There's a lot more to Richard, I think. He straight out lied to Widmore that Jacob wanted him to save the kid (Ben).

Capcom said...

Hahahaha, yes, the drain plug! I half expected to hear a flush with it. X-D

So Smoeky is just a glorified Roto-Rooter. :-p

Sayid'sgirl said...

Swany
Good point about Richard.

Melissa_Lossa said...

I agree - I think Richard's playing Ben's game of making people think that the decisions they make are their own, when he's pulling the strings all along.

And on that note, good night!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Night Melissa.

Black Swan said...

capcom, lol... yeah, it was like pulling the plug in a tub.. really funny!

Sayidsgirl, yeah... Richard is the key (no, wait.. Australia is the key) funny they showed the Risk game left out on the table. Ben's house wasn't where Sawyer and Hurley were room-mates last year, was it?

Sayid'sgirl said...

So why is Locke the exception to dead is dead? Because he's the chosen leader?

And how is he going to get Jin back for Sun?

Black Swan said...

G'nite Melissa! Yeah, Richard is the man behind the curtain?

Black Swan said...

108!!!

Sayid'sgirl said...

It might have been Ben's house. Didn't they go back there when they went to get him?

Capcom said...

On my second watch, I'd like to count how many times Ben says the opposite of what he said five minutes ago, in this episode. E.g., he tells locke that he knew he would be alive, and then tells Sun he had no idea. And the stuff with Ceasar. Sheesh, what a chameleon!

Sayid'sgirl said...

lol Swany

Sayid'sgirl said...

capcom
I know when I was watching I was going to post.
Does he ever tell the truth?
I wonder if that's one of the after effects of the temple?

Capcom said...

Oh, that's an interesting thought SG!

Black Swan said...

Sayid'sgirl, Locke was great tonight!! I love the way he was calmly leading Ben.

Black Swan said...

So, Ben is like Jack... he's an excellent liar (to the point of even being good at lying to himself)

Capcom said...

I have to say that I really thought that the scene with Ben's life flashing before his eyes was chilling. It was also nice to see those things clearly, instead of having to squint them out of vague images on screencaps up to now. That was very satisfying.

Black Swan said...

capcom, I totally agree!

I'm re-watching.. just caught the fact that little injured Ben doesn't remember how he got hurt, but remembers everything else (like his Dad and the fact he doesn't like him)

Capcom said...

Yes, I wonder what the selective memory is all about?

Sayid'sgirl said...

I'm rewatching too.
Why was Ethan with the Others in 1988?
And why did Ben tell Danielle if she wanted her baby to live to run everytime she hears the whispers?

Capcom said...

I guess I'm gonna turn in now too. It is a joy to watch the show with y'all as always! It's 10 times the fun!

Heheh, I'm gonna take my tape up to my bedroom and watch it again before I go to sleep, hopefully I'll have really bizarro dreams. :-B

memphish said...

Okay, a couple of more things than then bed.

1st -- what is the deal with Jacob? The farther we go, the less we know.

2nd -- hard to tell with Ben, but it sure seemed like he was surprised to see Kate, Jack and Hurley in that DI picture. Then again he could be lying. I still can't figure out how he's going to go back to the DI without suspicion either.

3rd -- I still don't understand where those DI pictures came from and why we'd never seen them before in Dharmaville. Was there DI signage tonight as well? I'll watch again tomorrow.

Black Swan said...

g'nite, capcom! have fun bizarro dreams.. lol!

sayid'sgirl,
ethan was with ben who was still biding his time pretending to be 'with' the DI but his heart was 'with' the others. Widmore said he could go back to his father but still be an 'other'. So, through Ben's formative years, Ben is being a spy for Richard?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Night capcom and memphish.

Sayid'sgirl said...

But why was Ethan offering to kill Danielle for Ben?

Black Swan said...

Ethan seemed to be following Ben around like a little brother. Maybe he hears all of Ben's fantastic stories of how he's really an official Other and Ethan wants the decoder ring, too.. lol!

Anyway, we do know Ethan turns out to join the Others..

Black Swan said...

Did anybody get the feeling Ben set up that whole thing with Ceasar being suspicious of Locke, just so Ben could blow him away and tell Locke, 'now we're even'?

Sayid'sgirl said...

I was just surprised that Ethan was an Other in 1988.

Black Swan said...

Sayid'sgirl, I don't think Ethan or Ben are officially Others yet when Alex gets taken. I'm sure they still live with their parents in Dharmaville at that point, but I think Ben is over at Otherville all the time hanging out with them.

Black Swan said...

Oh, I just had a thought.. what if Ben helps the Others with the purge because Richard promised him he could have Alex as a reward?.. hmmm Then Ben kills his dad thinking he'll be such a better parent than Roger ever was and actually ends up even worse, Alex ends up hating him and dead because of him.. wow!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Ok I see what you're saying. I never thought of it that way.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I thought it was funny that Ben said what was coming out of the jungle was something he couldn't control. And it was Locke.

I wonder if that's a hint?

Black Swan said...

It's just the way I saw it, sayid'sgirl.. doesn't mean I'm right.. lol!

I like the part when Locke tells Ben he never pictured him leading the others from behind a desk. And Ben's office is on the Hydra Island? hmm, didn't Isabelle say she didn't even like going to that smaller Island (like she was above it all?)

Black Swan said...

Good call, sayid'sgirl!! Locke has been uncontrollable for a long time.. heheheh.. blowing up stuff and all..

Black Swan said...

It's the whole, 'Don't tell me what I can't do!' thing..

Sayid'sgirl said...

It a good call though.
Yeah it is. Don't tell me what I can't do. :)

I think Charlie's milk saved Desmond. There was alot of white liquid flying out of that bag. lol

Sayid'sgirl said...

What's on the chalkboard in the preview is iteresting.

I hope that's not to revealing.

Sayid'sgirl said...

It's time for me to get to bed.
Can't wait to see what the west coaster think.
See you all tomorrow.

Black Swan said...

Good night Sayid'sgirl!
(I'm gonna check out that chalkboard.. lol!) Oh, yes... Charlie's milk! I like that! And little Charlie 'saved' Penny, too!

maven said...

This is too awesome...we're seeing so many LOST moments:

Charles is pretty hairy! LOL His scene with young Ben reminded me of when he was talking to Locke when he broke his leg in Tunisia.

Richard said that Jacob wanted Ben saved. It's what the island wants. Therefore: Jacob=Island.

The Others do not have a name for Smokey.

What does Ilana and those guys have to move in that gigantic trunk?

OMG: We see the Ben taking Alex scene! No wonder Danielle went bonkers. And he warns her about the whispers.

OMG: Ben kills Cesar!

Ben stands up to Charles and he backs down over Alex.

Ben doesn't "remember" that the O6 were in the DI (in 1977). The Temple did wipe out those memories.

Walking through his house we see the Risk board. Things were just left in place.

Now we get to see Charles' banishment. He broke the rules (so Penny is his daughter from an off-island fling).

Charles knows that Alex is supposed to die. The island wanted it. Can't fight the inevitable. One day it will happen. And it does. The "I'll be seeing you....boy" shows he believes he is above Ben.

John/Ben roles reversed. John is leading Ben who is following blinding searching for answers.

Ben seems to remember getting healed by the island in the Temple.

That's only a wall they built? The Temple is 1/2 mile away?

Charles Widmore confirms he has been trying to get back for 20 years.

Thank goodness Penny and Des are ok! Thank you, Charlie!

I think I have to sleep on that last scene!

memphish said...

There are a lot of things in this episode that don't add up for me, and I haven't rewatched yet, so I'm sure there will be more.

But mainly -- it's 1988 when they take Alex and Ben and Ethan (who is 11) are dressed like Hostiles in ratty Lost Boys clothes. Ben's got his Tunisian desert outfit on in fact. While it might be possible that they're spending their days in Dharmaville and at night sneaking around the Island, I find that a pretty far stretch. Why would the Hostiles, which have plenty of other people to send on the kill Danielle mission send the two who have to sneak all the way across the Island and act like nothing happened?

Then it's about 1992 when Charles leaves -- not 20 years from 2004. Alex is 4. It's definitely post Purge because they're living in Othersville and using the sub. Which makes me wonder how the heck has Charles (and Richard) been traveling off the Island since at least 1956. And why did it take so long to banish Charles for having Penny? That had to have happened more than 10 years earlier (and really more like 20).

I also wonder if the Island has a "rule" that not only must you kill your father, but you must save a child. That should make Kate the next leader.

memphish said...

So will Ilana solve our redshirt problem, taking out all the survivors who don't know what lies in the shadow of the statue? Seriously hope Juliet shot her.

The photo of Alex and Ben looks like the photo of Mrs. H and the monk.

Is Charles handcuffed when he's being escorted to the sub? Weird.

Melissa_Lossa said...

memphish - I'm also having a little trouble believing that Ethan was only 11 last night - he looked much older. Although I also have trouble believing he was only 27 in 2004.

And was that scene pre or post purge? If it was pre, I agree - why were Ben and Ethan dressed in the rags? Unless this was a test, to see how committed they were. If that was the case, maybe Richard didn't want them seen in Dharma outfits for some reason. If it was post, why weren't they living in Dharmaville yet? Unless they didn't move there until after Charles was taken out of power?

Melissa_Lossa said...

And good point about Charles not leaving until the 90s. That's kind of odd.

As far as his banishment - I would guess that no one found out about Penny until then. I could buy that.

bigdog said...

memphish said "I think I suffered from what I might in fact suffer from the rest of the series and that's the answers just not being as much fun as the questions."

Couldnt agree more.

when charles sends ben to kill danielle and alex. it reminded me of when ben sent locke to kill his dad. that was there big test. ben passed and soon he is taking charles place. locke pass and soon he takes over for ben.

where did the big silver box that iliana was working on come from?

John Locke was exceptionally cool tonight.

Melissa_Lossa said...

I definitely felt like the Danielle thing was a test - I'm just not sure whether Ben passed or failed it.

Ben seemed surprised that there was a baby - did the Others not know, or was that part of the test, to see how he would react?

memphish said...

And if Ethan was 11, that should have made Ben 23/24 and then 27/28 in 1992.

I have a feeling it was Ben's decision at least in large part to move to Dharmaville. After all, they already had swingsets for Alex. But I can't figure out how to reconcile the Smokey wall inside the DI house, not to mention the sheer existence of a secret room inside the DI house.

And how did Ben get to be the one to take over after Charles? He's still a young whippersnapper and there's all those other Others.

The lack of Ellie last night also bugs me, but that's just cause I'm greedy and want to know.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I know I was wondering why 11 year old Ethan was running around like an Other in 1988. That didn't make since to me. Why would the Others welcome him into their group?

Ben I can understand. I think they're still testing him. To see if he will "commit" to the island.
I don't think Charles trusts him or is afraid of him. Sort of like Ben with Locke.

I thought Alex was a little older than 4. I could be wrong. But you're right it is post purge when he was exiled.

But maybe he'd been trying to find a way back before he left fearing he would be exiled. Who knows.

memphish said...

Seemed to me Ben failed the test with Danielle. Not only did he bring "one of them" into their camp in the form of Alex, he failed to kill Danielle which was his mission. It reminds me of Locke failing his test only to have Sawyer complete it for him. In this case Keamy completed Locke's test only 18 years later.

As for the box, it came from the plane's cargo hold.

Sayid'sgirl said...

lol I took so long trying to make the math work. (Since Widmore said on the phone "almost" 20 years) that melissa pretty much said what I said.

memphish said...

The thing that rubbed me wrong about this episode is the fact that TPTB had 10 months to get the details right and yet there are so many holes, not to mention atrocious wigs. Desmond and Penny sailing from London to LA alone just makes my blood boil.

memphish said...

As for Charles, I think he'd been traveling on and off Island for years creating Widmore Industries, etc. And it could be the case that the rest of the Hostiles/Others only learned about it later. It's certainly true that none/few of the 2004 Others knew what all Ben was up to including his off Island travels.

memphish said...

So it seems that Ben didn't break the rules by leaving and returning, but by letting Alex die to judge as Smokey did, so does that mean it's okay to turn the wheel and return? It seems to be working out for Locke.

memphish said...

I stole all of this in italics from Jo at Get Lost with Jopinionated. The non-italicized is me.

Talk about a soft spot for mothers; sparing the lives of Rousseau and Penny because they have children. He does not want those kids to grow up without a mother (like he did) Nice observation.

If Ben doesn't remember 1977, why he does remember recovering from an injury inside of The Temple. Wouldn't he recall that it was a bullet wound, and that Sayid shot him? This is a giant question for me. I'm thinking that something happens back at Dharmaville that whisks away the O6 and possibly LBs before Ben returns to the DI. I still want to see how that return happens, why the DI take Ben back.

Ben lies more often than not, so did you believe him when he said that he'd never seen the island resurrect someone before? Because the look on his face when Sun mentioned that they'd spoken with Christian Shephard was priceless; he had to have known that Christian was seemingly resurrected upon crashing there in 2004. This makes me think that "Jacob" has to be a Christian Shephard type being, someone who has resurrected and only reveals himself in his own time and his own way to those on the Island. But whether or not Ben knows that I don't know. But Locke isn't acting the same way at all, so I don't know what the deal is with that either.

We've only seen Smokey kill 4 people: Seth Norris (Flight 815 pilot), Nadine (one of Rousseau's shipwrecked crew), Mayhew (one of Keamy's mercenaries) and Eko. Looking at all the people who have been/lived on that island who have committed egregious crimes...why has Smokey spared all of them but took the lives of these 4? Smokey killing some with no scanning and scanning others and killing others after a second go at them has me very confused.

Is that the last of Little Caesar, or is the island not done with him yet? If Cesar survives a sawed-off shotgun blast to the chest a la little Ben I may have to quit this show.

In regards to Ellie -- who is Daniel's father? Is he also an outsider? Was she also banished? I still can't reconcile Daniel's parenting with his lack of nosebleeds during the time jump.

Assuming that gun cache on the plane was Ilana's...did Widmore hire her? If so, why hesitate to kill Ben? Excellent question. If Ilana is Widmore's goon why did she play nice with Ben?

bigdog said...

OT i was watching fringe and it opened with a classic lost eye close up. however i hate american idol even more know that it ran over and tivo cut off the end of fringe.

I would have thought the monkey in the room was not that Ben killed Locke(saying that he was going to kill himself) but how in the world am i alive.

sun seems rather lost to me. she is desperate to find Jin but almost oblivious to the fact the she has left JiYeon and is missing again.

for as many answers as we got i think i like the 70's better.

memphish said...

And finally -- and this is the big question of the episode -- why did Ben think the fate of the island was more important than Alex's life?

This is from Mo Ryan and it sums it up for me. What's so freaking important about this Island? It's when the characters (Locke, Ben) act for it's benefit generally at the expense of living human beings that I get the most frustrated with them.

memphish said...

I totally forgot that Charles rode up on a horse. What the heck was that?

bigdog said...

re smokey's kills: i will always wonder if eko would be a bigger part in the story had adewale not wanted out of the role..

memphish said...

Do you think they'll try to put that giant crate (an overgrown Marshal's Haliburton suitcase) on an outrigger? I don't think that'll float.

memphish said...

From all my posting you wouldn't guess I have things I need to get done today, but I just can't stop. ;-p

This is from Gitsie Girl: Did Ben think that instead of killing Danielle he was doing her a favor by stealing Alex? Seems pretty messed up. Almost seems like Kate’s excuse for taking Aaron, to protect him, but in reality she wanted the baby. Is Ben filling a hole in his broken heart (Annie?) like Kate was?

Melissa_Lossa said...

The name Christian definitely seemed to mean something to Ben. I'm not sure if he put that name together with Jack's dead father, or if he knew it from somewhere else.

Now that I consider it more, I think the Danielle scene was pre-purge. Ben seemed a little shaky on the draw, which I don't think he would have been if he had already killed an entire commune and his own father. I think he was really trying to do the right thing by taking Alex and protecting Danielle. Look at it this way - at this point, Ben's main motivation is that he hates his father for being a crappy dad. He also desperately misses his absent mother. I think he would have seen this as a way to spare poor Alex an upbringing like he had. Maybe he did the same thing with Ethan? Brought him into the fold to escape a crappy childhood?

bigdog said...

if smokey has to be let out. why are people scarred of it? you would think they would just keep it locked up.
smokey/alex telling ben to follow locke or he would hunt it seemed phony. i dont think ben is as good as locke at getting things done.

you think john went looking for richard while he was in the jungle or was he following a vision that told him to go to the temple

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

So. Leaving the Island and coming back is a no-no even if it doesn't involve putting all the metal in the kitchen into the microwave to zap yourself to Tunisia. Does that mean Ethan was going to be in trouble, had Charlie not eased his burdens? Because there he was at Herarat Airfield, serving Juliet freshly-squeezed knockout juice.

Also, (and Doc sort of pointed this out too) don't you think Ben was doing some serious Island sinning if he built his secret closet of suits, passports and fat cash right on top of the Smokeyphone booth?

This begs the question: does the Island really have a problem with people coming and going, or is it just a human moré? The Island makes it hard, sure; but it doesn't seem like it was nearly the offense to Smokey that it was to the Hostiles.

And the Hostiles. Is it finally put to bed that Richard, whatever he is, is not a normal human? Because unless he's one sneaky dude, he came and went from the Island loads of times to pop in on Locke and Juliet.

Doc Jensen's mirror-time theory is gaining ground, with the mystery schibboleth question that Ilana asked Lapidus. Rings a bit of "what did one snowman say to the other snowman?", doesn't it? (ah, memphish, I see you caught that too).

Melissa_Lossa said...

I don't know if it's leaving the island that's the no-no, as much as it is what you're doing off-island. Was Charles in trouble mostly because he had a child with an "outsider" and was probably working on amassing his large fortune?

Also, wouldn't Ben BE an "outsider," as he was born off-island, to off-island parents? Or does that not matter because he's "special"?

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

I see what you're saying, Melissa, but Ben says it for us:

You left the Island regularly. You had a daughter with an outsider. You broke the rules, Charles.

My thought was that the "leaving the Island" rule is something upon which your adoption into the Others is contingent. Sort of an "If you become one of us, you can never leave this place," "Hotel California" kind of thing.

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

Black Swan: I don't know about "getting played," but I definitely had the idea that Ben wasn't the mastermind he wanted to be, too. Doc touches on it today as well.

I posted about it on my blog back in November 2007, during the mobisodes.

It speaks, basically, to Ben having a fundamental misunderstanding about how the Island works.

scoutpost said...

Well overall, I liked this episode, but (maybe I'm just tired) I feel like we're still not getting any answers. I feel like TPTB are teasing us with "almosts". We almost know what Richard is- but not really, we almost know about Smokey- but not really, we almost saw the Temple- but not really, we almost know why Charles Widmore was banished- but not really, we almost have the timeline together- but not really, etc. Ben lies SO much, I'm beginning to wonder if we really know anything. Does HE really know anything, or has he been played? So for the most part, I feel more confused than I have in a long time.

I also picked up on the Danielle/Ben scene as being very similar to the Locke/Sawyer scene. It's almost like a gang initiation. So Ben could not kill his target, just like Locke could not kill his. Also, in that scene: Ben is ordered to kill Danielle, and he and little Ethan are arguing about it outside. Was Ben having hesitation? This reminded me of Eko and his lil bro and Sayid and his big bro.

Interesting that Charles Widmore said if the island wants Alex dead that it WILL happen. And CW made it happen through Keamy. Was this course correction on behalf of the island, or did Widmore really break the rules as Ben thinks? Which brings me to...WTH are the rules?!!!! I wish we knew.

Ben told Sun he couldn't control what was coming out of the jungle. I think he said the same thing to Hurley and them when he summoned it before to get Keamy's guys.

Dead is dead? Ok so is that the truth or is it another lie by Ben? If true, then what the heck is Locke, Christian, Charlie, etc.?

Maybe Mrs. Hawking is the key to getting back to the island and Charles Widmore couldn't find her. Remember Ben didn't know where she was or that she was the person to see until Locke told him right before Ben killed him. So maybe she holds the key....?

I agree on all the timeline weirdness and holes...but I'm just not diligent enough to figure it all out!

Gigantic metal trunk= another coffin (but why metal?)? I only say this because in February I was getting ready to board a plane and was blankly watching them load luggage. I remember wondering what was in this big box they were loading, when all of a sudden it dawned on me that it was a coffin! LOL (We also hit some really mean turbulence on that flight- I was waiting for the flash to occur and take me to the island.) So now I equate big boxes on planes to = coffins. ;)

Melissa_Lossa said...

Good point, Kyle. I wonder what changed in the rules? Ben seems to send people on and off the island all the time.

Maybe Charles wasn't supposed to leave because he was a leader? That could be why people like Ethan and Tom are allowed to leave - they're not in charge. That could explain Ben's secret stash - maybe he's been leaving secretly, so no one finds out and banishes him.

Black Swan said...

Kyle, that's great you have that post on your blog (I commented there). All my speculations from the past are just in notes saved on my pc.. lol!

It seems to me the whole episode is all about the fact that Ben is also just another "Lost" soul on the Island of "redemption". He is totally scared of Locke, who is the new Christian. For good measure, Alex drove the point home.. LOL!

We are all still in the dark about how the Island works, but I don't think it has anything to do with time travel. It's all about perception. And there are those in the 'inner circle' of knowledge and those below that in different levels.

memphish said...

Scoutpost said: Maybe Mrs. Hawking is the key to getting back to the island and Charles Widmore couldn't find her.

Charles gave Mrs. H's address to Desmond and he found her, so I don't think that's it.

scoutpost said...

oh duh! Thanks memphish...I didn't think that was right when I posted it, but I just couldn't remember the detail. :0

maven said...

Happy Birthday to Lost2010!

memphish said...

Happy Birthday Lost 2010! Are you getting a 3 or 4 day weekend in your honor?

Amused2bHere said...

omg there were so many goodies in this episode, but I agree that it was a lot of 'almosts'. Kinda like only getting sugar free chocolates...they "almost" satisfy you, but not really (and if you take in too many at once you can get a bit sick!)

I kept waiting for Alex' eyes to turn all black, or for her mouth to become distorted when she was yelling at Ben. The actress did a smashing job of being scary without special effects!

and I still think they did not explain the title: Dead is Dead. If that is so....then how is Locke up and walking?

sigh.

Amused2bHere said...

btw Happy Passover Maven and all those celebrating this week

Melissa_Lossa said...

Happy birthday, Lost2010! Sorry that Lost didn't give you your fondest wish as a birthday gift. :)

bigdog said...

happy bday lost2010.

Capcom said...

Happy Birthday Lost2010!!! *<|:o)8


And yes also, Happy Passover to all!

Sayid'sgirl said...

memphish said:
Jo said: Talk about a soft spot for mothers; sparing the lives of Rousseau and Penny because they have children. He does not want those kids to grow up without a mother (like he did)

I could maybe buy this with Penny, but not Danielle. Alex did grow up without a mother. She wasn't dead but she wasn't there.

Ben lies more often than not, so did you believe him when he said that he'd never seen the island resurrect someone before? Because the look on his face when Sun mentioned that they'd spoken with Christian Shephard was priceless; he had to have known that Christian was seemingly resurrected upon crashing there in 2004. This makes me think that "Jacob" has to be a Christian Shephard type being, someone who has resurrected and only reveals himself in his own time and his own way to those on the Island. But whether or not Ben knows that I don't know. But Locke isn't acting the same way at all, so I don't know what the deal is with that either.

I thnk Locke is acting the same. He's acting like he always does when he thinks he thinks he's in control and has all the answers. Happy go lucky and smug.

Assuming that gun cache on the plane was Ilana's...did Widmore hire her? If so, why hesitate to kill Ben?

Supposedly Keamy and his crew didn't want Ben dead either, just captured.

In regards to Ellie -- who is Daniel's father? Is he also an outsider? Was she also banished? I still can't reconcile Daniel's parenting with his lack of nosebleeds during the time jump.

The nosebleeds seemed to go in chronological order. So maybe the first time Daniel was on the island was alot longer ago than we think.

And finally -- and this is the big question of the episode -- why did Ben think the fate of the island was more important than Alex's life?

I'm not so sure it was about the island as much as it was about not wanting to leave or give up being the leader. Plus he didn't expect Widmore to "break the rules".

I totally forgot that Charles rode up on a horse. What the heck was that?

Maybe because Jacob doesn't like technology.

melissa said:
Good point, Kyle. I wonder what changed in the rules? Ben seems to send people on and off the island all the time.

Maybe Charles wasn't supposed to leave because he was a leader? That could be why people like Ethan and Tom are allowed to leave - they're not in charge. That could explain Ben's secret stash - maybe he's been leaving secretly, so no one finds out and banishes him.


I remember Tom told Michael that some of them could leave the island. So you might be right.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Happy Birthday lost2010!!
And Happy Passover.

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

Good call, sayid'sgirl...

MICHAEL: So you people can just... come and go?

TOM: Some of us. You want a drink?

2costa said...

i think its interesting that smokey only seemed to judge Ben on one thing and that was his relationship and subsequent death of alex. Killing ceasar and shooting desmond among all of Ben's other actions were not fair game because he did them for the island, but taking alex and raising her seemed to be for his own selfish reasons and not the islands. Obviously Ben was lying about him coming back being the reason he broke the rules or needed to be judged. Either sparing Alex to begin with or not giving himself up to keamy to save her life seemed to be his only sin smokey cared about, had Ben left with keamy he probably never could have come back like widmore. I also thought it was telling that ben treated smokey alex as if she were the real alex, even though he had to know better.

The answer to ilana's question had to be "the well" right, since the statue's shadow was no longer there when the orchid was there.

there was an element to alex's death that seemed to parallel charlie's death and the island course correcting , this time just long delayed. Like ben was supposed to kill her and the island was just setting that right.

I also think that although Ben may have planted the seeds of moving to the barracks with the others, widmore was still the leader and it was his decision. I think ben "tricked" widmore into getting comfortable in the barracks and using the Submarine for off island booty calls and that led to his banishment. As much as locke was questioning Ben's decisions, Ben lived true to the island while he was the leader and did not leave or let romance get in the way of his leadership role.

Ben must have way more mojo with the island then widmore, because widmore can't even get back to the island even when he knows where it is. Before when sawyer had to kill cooper i said that together sawyer and locke make one good individuals together and the same can be said for ben and locke. The island knows locke gets too cocky without ben to keep him in check, plus locke needs Ben to do all of his dirty work.

I wonder if Illana is with the others or widmore or what? her shadow question implies an others connection or earlier

i wonder if richard saying ben wouldn't remember the 815'ers in 1977 was a con for sawyer and kate's benefit because ben seemed a little fake when he acted surprised they were in the dharma initiative.

Locke definitely has more island mojo then he had before dying all the stuff he knew about the temple and underneath was all intuition ...

Sayid'sgirl said...

Locke having more mojo and intuition could be possible.
But Locke spent most of his time on the island wondering around it.
He found the Swan (along with Boone) and kept it secret.

He may have ran across the temple wall.

Also Smokey tried to drag him underground when they were coming back from the Black Rock.

2costa said...

ya i agree that's possible, but i don't think that's it. How could he have known that ben had to face judgment for alex? i think that if the island heals you or whatever you get some extra mojo. When ben said "you dont have the slightest idea what the island wants" and locke was like" are you sure about that" there was a new confidence in lockes voice. If locke had all these insights into the island before he never would have been so dejected trying to kill himself. Obviously the island still needs ben, but wants him cuckold to locke, like i said they make one solid leader in tandem like master blaster form the madd maxx movie

lost2010 said...

Thanks for the birthday wishes guys!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Locke does seem to have finally found his purpose.
I just don't like him. ;)
So I look for excuses that he's not the grand leader. lol

memphish said...

Good comment 2Costa about Smokey only judging Ben's interactions with Alex.

What if Ilana works for Richard?

maven said...

Memphish: I don't know about that. Ilana and her "team" look very mercenary-like to me (like Keemy and his team). It would seem that Widmore had another team in place to get on that plane. He knew where Hawking was, so he might have spied on her and knew about Ajira 316. And he prepared with the weapon cargo.

2costa: Like your take on Ben only being judged for his treatment of Alex and not for other things we've seen him do over his lifetime.

memphish said...

Someone mentioned the statue though. That's what made me think of Richard. Or it could be DI what with their fondness of riddles. I'm torn on who I want it to be. If it's Widmore, that's predictable, but if it's someone else it will be like, oh no not more new people.

maven said...

Well, I rewatched the episode today:

Little Ben does not remember he was shot.

Maybe Charles was also judged by Smokey and was banished, but Ben still has a role to play for the island by helping Locke. Charles and Ben both broke the rules.

No way Cesar could have survived that blast to the chest.

I find it hard to believe that Ben and Charles were surprised there was a baby with Danielle. Here was a pregnant lady on the island...they must have been spying on her for months.

Did somebody figure out yet why unplugging the drain summons Smokey. The last time Ben came out of his secret room summoning Smokey for Keamy's team he was very sooty.

Ben tells Sun that he's seen miraculous things on the island...it even heals the sick. Yeah, except his tumor.

When Ben says "We built this wall to keep people like you out" does he mean the current Others or the ancient islanders. He feels part of the group or the history of the island.

lost2010 said...

Well, let's suppose the smoke stays in a particular chamber that's partly filled with water.

When the smoke pressurizes the chamber, it forces the water up into Ben's cave o'death. Maybe.

When Ben unplugs the drain, the water rushes into the chamber letting smoky know he's wanted, and he can rush out of any number of cerberus vents according to his whims. . .

That's about the all I got. . .hopefully someone else has a better idea.

memphish said...

Happy Birthday JGZ350!

I know you haven't been around in a while, but maybe you'll stop by and see if we remembered your birthday.

BTW, how did we know it was Lost2010's birthday yesterday? She's not on the list.

Hope everyone who has Good Friday off enjoys it. Enjoy it even if you have to work. We're going to the zoo today.

maven said...

Memphish: I'm friends with Lost2010 on Facebook! That's how I knew.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Happy Birthday JGZ350!
That's how I knew too maven.

maven said...

And Happy Birthday to JGZ350! Where are you?

lost2010 said...

Happy Birthday JGZ350!

Capcom said...

Happy Birthday JGZ350! Long time no see!

I have a question...if Smokey can slither through those tiny vent holes int eh basement, why can't he get to someone who is merely hiding inside the branches of a banyon tree?? E.G., when Kate and Juliet got treed by Smokey.

Capcom said...

Oh, and I hope that everyone has a great Passover and Easter Triduum as well.

2costa said...

capcom i think we are supposed to think that he judged julliette or kate or both and then left them alone. I think smokey was judging julliette for killing picket or trying to kill ben in that instance, it would be cool to see the backside of that scene and see what pictures smokey was seeing when scanning kalliette...

2costa said...

I always thought that perhaps Ben's mom stepped out on roger linus and may have gotten pregnant by someone else or had island ties. Well now that we know that we know, widmore got someone preggo with penny will on R and R. Some are saying that widmore could also be Ben's dad, but i dont buy it because widmore didn't seem to be leaving the island that much in the 60's. In 1954 richard still said he answered to someone that probably wasn't widmore. Maybe Jacob was the widmore/ben of the others in 1954. Maybe Jacob is Ben's father in real life. Just as emily locke seemed to have a distinct purpose in naming her son john. Emily Linus' dying words were "name him Benjamin". We all know that in the bible Ben is jacob's favorite son. That would all fit. There has to be an emily linus/island connection for her to appear to ben smokey style when he was a kid. Richard implied as much when questioning ben in their first meeting. People say smokey can take the form of anybody and i dont beleive that. I think smokey can only take the form of people that were on the island or died on the island. walt, yemi, christain, and alex are all the people we think smokey has looked like on the island and all of them were on the island at some point. The only exception to this is Emily linus, when she appeared to ben looking all alice in wonderland, for all we know she has never been to the island. Richards questions to ben about if his mom was on the island or whatever seem to hammer that point home. I think the red herring of the show is that jacob is who or what we saw in the cabin when ben took locke there, but what if Jacob isn't a ghost now that would be a twist. On the other side of that though i will mention that, i noticed that "smokey alex" threw Ben up on the wall just as ghost jacob threw Ben onto the cabin wall, but i think thats red herring, to make us think smokey and jacob are one agenda... I think the writers have been stringing us along thinking that jacob may not be real or really calling the shots, most recently some have theorized that jacob never told richard to save ben this week. The one lone instance that seems to go against this is ben say" i hope your happy jacob" when he was turning the donkey wheel, but i think that this shows that jacob is ben's boss and not just some ghost that ben and richard use to manipulate the others with..

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

2costa, I'm sorry, but I'm not event going to try to wade through that. Just take a second, type out your thoughts in Word maybe, and organize them. Even a long post can be readable.

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