Hope everyone has been doing their reading up on "Catch-22" to prepare for tonight's episode. I'll be interested to see how the implications carried by the title will be played out in tonight's episode, and specifically Desmond's flashbacks. Happy brain bending!
Wednesday, April 18, 2007
CATCH-22 - SEASON 3, EPISODE 17
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Here is the updated reading list for the 
276 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 276 of 276Wasn't that leaked fake script the one that you could access from the Lost website that had the "dark night in the jungle with the beam pointing up" screen? A link from the Oceanic webiste too, I think.
memphish - Here's a brainf***er theory for you. How many times has Desmond saved Charlie? Three? Four? At one point last night, he said "three," but I don't recall if that was pre- or post-arrow.
Anyway, let's say it's four times. First, Desmond joins the Army and gets sent to prison and dishonorably discharged. Then he gets to the island.
First saved life (lightning) = Desmond almost becomes a doctor
Second saved life (drowning) = Desmond works for the Royal Shakespeare Theatre Company
Third saved life (seagull) = Desmond joins a convent.
Fourth saved life (arrow) = ??
Borrowing computer terms, is Charlie's life somehow causing Desmond's life to corrupt or error out? In every version of the timeline, Desmond meets Penny, but in every timeline, two things have happened: he has saved Charlie, and he has lost Penny.
If I'm right, who will come to the final realization in this chain of events? Will Desmond choose to let Charlie die for selfish reasons, or will Charlie let himself die for selfless reasons?
Someone asked a Q about Charlie's guitar getting wet, and I agree, that's weird.
Did he always have an accoustic Ovation? I thought that he brought an electric one on the plane.
melissa_lossa, did you see on EW.com that the grail quest that is the second X-Files movie is closer than ever to happening?
Capcom: I think it was me that wondered about Charlie's guitar. It was the first shot in the episode last night...him walking through the rain with the guitar exposed. Water is not good for wood! Maybe his mind was focused on other things! LOL
I think it was a shout-out to us fans when Sawyer mentioned he "borrowed" the cassette from Bernard. It was letting us know that Bernard and Rose was still around.
TBP, don't kid us now, is that true?? Does it have Muldur and Scully in it?? Or just Deputy Dogget and Reyes? OMGOMGOMG! :o)
Finally, I've caught up with all the posts and firstly,
Happy Birthday David (admin)!!!! I just Know it's going to be a wonderful year for you!!!!
I feel a bit out of my element here since I never saw x-files, don't read comic books, and physics was my worse subject in school...
Anyway, after reading Doc Jensen's new article (thanks, memphish) I googled "the arrows of time" and found something with the name David Hume:
The causal arrow of time
Causes are ordinarily thought to precede effects. The future can be controlled, but not the past.
A problem with using causality as an arrow of time is that, as David Hume pointed out, the causal relation per se cannot be perceived; one only perceives sequences of events. Furthermore it is surprisingly difficult to provide a clear explanation of what the terms "cause" and "effect" really mean. It does seem evident that dropping the plate is the cause, the plate shattering is the effect. However, it may be that the asymmetry that the observer relies upon in such cases is really the thermodynamic one. If the thermodynamic arrow were reversed then one would regard the gathering shards as the cause and the fused plate jumping up into our hands as the effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time
RE: Charlie's guitar
I can't believe it didn't break when Desmond tackled him. I believe it was always acoustic. I bet he was frustrated that it got wet.
RE: Helicopter ejector seat.
I'm not at home so I can't re-listen. Didn't it sound like the props on the helicopter slowed way down before ejection? Is that a feature on any helicopter? I don't think the props blew up.
RE: Discussion of people being separated at birth.
How was this discussion spawned? I think it is interesting but what are the Easter eggs that opened this discussion?
capcop - No, I kid you not. There's no script yet, but the legal issues are nearly resolved.
tbp - i like the sound of that. To add to that is charlie having a "final destination" type reality that when he was hung that he was suppose to die and death has been chasing him.
RE: All the Birthday wishes
Thanks to all. Although I'm not able to spend as much time chatting as I would like, this community means A LOT to me and I am so grateful that over the last year, you have all become a part of my life.
and that would be capcom
TBP...I bet the legal issues with Duchovney were quite extensive..."I get to fly back home at the end of every day all expenses paid, I get to fly back home any time my family calls, and oh yeah, I never have to step foot in Vancouver" :o)
Admin...it did sound like some whistling of some sort happened before the rotor sound stopped. And BTW, happy B-day!!!!
My favorte Hurley line last night was to Desmond. Thanks for the heads up about bringing an umbrella dude.
Morning LoCo's.
LOL-That was a funny line sayid's girl.
Interesting epi last night-eh?
Trying to catch up and read Doc Jensen's articles. Thanks for the heads up to the spoiler memphish. YOu took one for the team!
Happy Birthday Admin! I remember 28- sort of!
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet: Superman has raced the Flash. Several times over the years, in fact. And lost three times, tied twice, and never won.
I'm sure Hurley has already mentioned this to Charlie.
Superman vs Flash
Ditto what Scout said Memphish, I forgot to thank you for that.
That was a good line Sayidsgirl. :o) I also liked when Hurley said something like "Allow me", when Dez was trying to get people to go with him. I like Hurley's confidence in himself and his talents now.
Favorite Hurley (to Desmond) lines: "You been eating those mushrooms Jack warned us about?" and "This is future crap, isn't it?"
Between Hurley and Sawyer, I don't know who has the better lines.
I think sawyer has the funnier lines, but hurley is getting better.
i did find it interesting that hurley said watch the master work when he was getting Jin along with every other person on lost to do what he wants. very Ben like..
memphish said...
Any guesses on where the hula doll came from? Was it dashboard decoration in the helicopter?
I'm leaning more towards a jet or rocket. Not a helicpter. The flight suit and mask are similar to the ones warn by jet pilots in high atmoshere conditions, and the hula girl would be a typical ornament many jet pilots put in their plane.
It sounded like a chopper, but I can't see how a chopper found an island. Would have had to taken of close to the island.
Admin, I'm the one spouting the separated at birth stuff and here's why. I was listening to Jay and Jack and they mentioned the ping pong scene and how relatively alike Sawyer and Jack are. This also goes back to The Moth in season 1 where Sawyer tells Kate that he and Jack aren't that different. Since I was already thinking Jack was a Manchurian Candidate and that he was conditioned off-Island I came up with the idea that Jack was "raised by another." Ever since Bad Twin came out I've figured there has to be twins on the show somewhere and last May when I read Bad Twin I always pictured Jack and Sawyer as the Widmore brothers.
Then I was reading Doc Jensen and he talked about Desmond using alcohol to escape and that sounded so much like Christian Shephard I decided that Desmond could be a separated brother too. This was further cemented by Doc's cold feet at the altar link with Jack and Desmond. Then I read that there were 4 Karamazov brothers and decided to add in Ben.
Now y'all have a glimpse into the dangerous workings of my mind.
You should also know my LOST theories are always wrong.
Hey all,
Juts caught up on the comments. Giid epi last night. hers' my thoughts which have been mentioned by several others at this point.
1. Interesting that the two oracles who have influenced Desmond's life are sitting in a picture together. Interesting story about Des getting pissed and waking up later in the middle of the street. Was this his first premonition or time travel. Made me think of Des a little like Locke. Always looking for the bigger answer or meaning.
2. Kate obviously has feeling for Jack. She flirts, and then runs to Sawyer only after seeing Jack with Jules. I' sure this will cause some drama down the road. Either drama between KJS, or preggers drama. Not sure which yet.
3. Funny that Charlie made a comment forseing his future death when they found the hula doll. I'm paraphrasing but
Charlie: It's not Rousseaus. if it was one of her traps I'd have a neumatic rod flying at my head.
4. Some grea gutbusters this epi. Fell out of my chair a couple of times:
Mix Tape - priceless
favorite other - again priceless
Jin's ghost story - One of the funniest LOST scenes ever. And Hurley getting scared even though he didn't understand a word of the story. Laughed so hard my insides hurt.
5. You can get to the island. Unless this is an "other" trick, you can actually get to the island although it is apparantly quite the deadly trip. Even though it sounded like a chopper, I have a hard time that it was. Chopper don't fly at very high altitudes, nor do they have a good range of distance for flight. The person who ejected was wearing a high altitude flight suit and Oxygen mask, which usually relfects a craft that is capable of a high speeds and G levels.
Also, we know the others have a chopper for food drops that comes and goes from the island. Why would this one crash. Very intersteing.
Good observations, everybody! For some reason I'm having a hard time with this episode.
diggity said...
1. Interesting that the two oracles who have influenced Desmond's life are sitting in a picture together. Interesting story about Des getting pissed and waking up later in the middle of the street. Was this his first premonition or time travel. Made me think of Des a little like Locke. Always looking for the bigger answer or meaning.
If this was his first premonition or time travel, I wonder if the 1995 wine label gives us any clues to that? How does 1995 fit into the Lost story?
diggity also said...
5. You can get to the island. Unless this is an "other" trick, you can actually get to the island although it is apparantly quite the deadly trip. Even though it sounded like a chopper, I have a hard time that it was. Chopper don't fly at very high altitudes, nor do they have a good range of distance for flight. The person who ejected was wearing a high altitude flight suit and Oxygen mask, which usually relfects a craft that is capable of a high speeds and G levels.
I tend to agree with you on this, although I have no knowledge of these things. I'm wondering how this may relate to how Juliet REALLY got onto the island and how she couldn't speak when she first woke up on the sub?
What if Naomi wasn't in the chopper but in a different high-speed aircraft and she jumped out when she was over the island?
And, at the same time, the chopper was there and what fell in the water was the food drop? I would think if a chopper crashed in the water it would have been louder.
Just thinking out loud...
I'm going to pretend I'm J. Wood and talk about mirroring.
I'm guessing Kate's love life is mirroring her Mother's. Her mother had a good man (Sam) but couldn't help loving a bad one (Wayne). They both loved her. You can't help who you love, so Sam let Diane (I just realized that's their names like in Cheers) go to be with Wayne.
Kate is with a "bad" man (Sawyer) but can't help loving a "good" man (Jack). They possibly both love her (it's hard to say with Jack) and Sawyer may let her go to be with Jack.
But here's my question to any gentlemen around here: If you're Jack do you want her after she's been catting around with Sawyer? I guess if you love her you do. It's just so Melrose Place awkward what with being stuck on an island without the Army to move you away.
Happy Birthday David!
I know that I'm way late on this, but here's some info I've heard, re: the new X-Files movie:
Creator Chris Carter was in a legal battle with 20th century Fox regading rights or profits or something, which has just settled out of court.
Supposedly, the film will feature Mulder and Scully, and will take place sometime in the middle of the series (not following the series finale). I just read an interview with Gillian Anderson, and she said that it will not focus on the show's mythology. It will be a stand alone story that will be very creepy and haunting.
All of the major players are supposed to be involved. Considering David Duchovney hasn't had a hit movie since he left the show, he's probably jumping at the chance. :)
I think that Naomi's suit and helmet prove my theory that she didn't bail out of a crashing helicopper, she jumped from one passing over. Maybe the copter couldn't get any closer to the sland, and she had to jump from a very high altitude.
I had a thought that maybe Desmond was supposed to save Charlie this time. During the flashes of the puzzle pieces, Charlie was in the piece in which Jin and Hurley were holding the parachute to catch Naomi. Charlie was there, too! So Desmond was meant to save him and he didn't really alter anything. It was meant to be. Maybe it was a test (a la Abraham/Isaac), but it's one he passed. And by not altering anything, it didn't change whether it was Naomi or Penny as the parachutist. It was always supposed to be Naomi (probably sent by Penny).
Hey all,
Wish I had more time to post, but my friend and I wrote up a fair amount about this episode on our blog, including why I think Locke and Desmond are going to play huge roles as we move forward:
http://www.atomicblowtorch.com/?p=204
The helo could have made it to the island, helos can do in-flight re-fueling like jets do.
I'm pretty sure that her suit was just a regular flightsuit, I didn't see any fluid lines in it as used in high-G situations. You don't need anything more than an O2 mask hookup when flying at high altitudes. Thin air doesn't affect the skin, just the lungs and brain. :-)
Good J.Wood impression, Memphish. :o)
Wish I could join in on the live podcast...
have fun all!
erich - I agree with your thoughts on Locke and Desmond. I think it is very significant that both of them had a vision about sacrificing someone to achieve their goals. Locke allowed Boone to die in order to open the hatch, but Desmond decided to sav Charlie, possibly giving up on a reunion with Penny. It'll be interesting to see how those decisions play out.
Melissa_Lossa said... Parachute girl seemed like she was ready to parachute down. She didn't just throw on a parachute when the chopper died - she was all suited up and carrying her belongings with her. I think she was anticipating the chopper going down.
Maybe she was the pilot, and the reason the helicopter crashed was that she bailed out.
maven said...
4. Interesting that he relates his flashes as puzzle pieces to a puzzle with no picture on the box.
Kind of like the Lost jigsaw puzzles.
10. Also trying to place Des' relationship with Ruth. If he dated her 6 years and the wine is labeled 1995, that would put the start of dating her in 1989. But later, when Des is loading the wine in Penny's car, the boxes are dated 1989. What gives?
The 1995 wine is the wine they just made. Penny is buying 1989 wine because it is a good vintage.
Melissa_Lossa said... memphish - I don't know if DJ Dan's beast ever had a name.
It was a Mapinguari.
Happy Birthday David!
I added you to the TLC Birthday List.
I'm logged into Talkshoe, but where is the lost community?
Dennis - since I haven't had the chance until now - let me just say that you do a great job here! I am so happy that you are one of our behind-the-scenes people. Thanks.
Rather, *some* helos are equipt to make inflight re-fueling, not all.
Here's a cap from the ep of the flightsuit:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=95068&fullsize=1
Looks to be just a standard issue, baggy, either polyester/cotton or nomex suit, either for flight, or a jumpsuit specifically for bailing out.
The helmet also looks like a regular subsonic, no-Gs (i.e., nothing special) helmet, equipt with mic, headset, and O2 mask added:
http://www.aviationhelmets.com/helmet5.htm
Unless TPTB intend some other meaning beyond what meets the eye, and they didn't bother to use hypersonic or special equipment, we might be able to accept the "helo in, parachute down" appearances at face value.
Now whether or not she intended to have to bail out is another question enirely. :o)
Thanks CattyGirl! :)
Thoughts:
1. I don't think it was a helicopter either, it could have been a plane and the sound being it was malfunctioning or possibly running out of gas (hence the sputter sound).
2. Catch 22 is really just defined as a dilema or paradoxical problem. I think Desmond thought it would be Penny but not that by saving Charlie would that flip-flop who it was they found.
3. Desmond was contemplating letting Charlie die because of the vision he saw. Looking back, charlie could have died or not, but it would not have influenced his vision - they still found the person. I think he was considering letting Charlie die because he is becomming a slave to his visions, just thinking that they need to happen exactly like he sees them.
4. By Desmond repeatedly saving Charlie what will he change? Sure, like the Ringlady told Desmond, if someone's going to die they eventually will there's no avoiding it. But Charlie has lived for several more days, and that has changed the future somehow. Could eventually, the Charlie dieing could be broken? Plus, what is the Ringlady's angle in this? What she told Desmond could be untrue. Afterall, she seems (with the Abbot) to want Desmond on the island.
5. How can one get to the island? If we are to believe Ben (a stretch), since the sky went purple and communication was cut off, one cannot arrive or return to the island, hence letting Jack leave. But how did Naomi get to the island? This mystery will eventually have to be explained: Naomi somehow arrives, Desmond tried to leave but cant, and Walt left how?
Mrs.Ringlady did say that if Dez changed anything, that he would kill us all! So we're doomed now :o)
I am intruiged by some theories mentioned in the DarkUFO recap that Charlie was supposed to die when Ethan killed him, and be dead now, and that his being alive could be causing some "untoward" issues in reality or in the reality of The Island.
Just a quick note on the Celtic "cup" reference. As a Scottish football fan, it was GREAT to hear "grand old team" in last night's episode. Based on the chronology of the show, the "cup" almost definitely referred to the Scottish Cup, which Celtic FC won in both 1988 and 1989. Celtic didn't win anything else that would be considered "The Cup" during the right years.
Interesting Ian, thanks for the timeline info.
The live podcast was fun...look for a new post soon
Apparently, someone on Lostpedia disagrees slightly - in Desmond's page, it says that Celtic's 1985 Scottish Cup win is what Ruth was talking about. Possible - just seems a little too early. And, again, wouldn't Ruth be like ten in 1985? She seems weirdly young.
Finally caught up- it's taken me all day! Wish I could've done the live podcast thing, but it was during carpool time here in AZ.
iancrose- thanks for the info. It amazes me that this community always has someone who knows something about everything that comes up! (does that even make sense? you guys know what I mean). That goes for you too capcom w/the info about the flight suit and helmets.
maven said...
I had a thought that maybe Desmond was supposed to save Charlie this time. During the flashes of the puzzle pieces, Charlie was in the piece in which Jin and Hurley were holding the parachute to catch Naomi. Charlie was there, too! So Desmond was meant to save him and he didn't really alter anything. It was meant to be. Maybe it was a test (a la Abraham/Isaac), but it's one he passed. And by not altering anything, it didn't change whether it was Naomi or Penny as the parachutist. It was always supposed to be Naomi (probably sent by Penny).
This was the big question and same thought I had. To add, perhaps because Desmond only sees "puzzle pieces" and not the "big picture", maybe he didn't know that the flash where Charlie dies is before the flash where he's holding the parachute? Of course this really doesn't make sense, I think he could've figured that out. So it brings me back to what maven said.
I agree Ian, it seemed as if Dez was robbing the cradle a bit there! :o)
I missed it too Scoutpost, my neph is downloading some TV episodes and this computer can't take too much at once. :-(
experimentalfilm! said... can we think of a different term around here than "lurking" .. that makes us all sound like sad loners who live in our grandmas basement and eat macaroni and cheese all day .
How about Pearling (as in the Pearl station), and the people who do it would be called Pearls or Pearlies?
This is the first time I've had a chance to go over to darkUFO's blog to get a good look at the pic of Mrs. Hawking and the monk. It's a pretty bad photoshopped job, the monk's pic looks like a mugshot.
Right Scoutpost, it looks even worse than the second Dez-n-Penny "photo". As if I made it, haha.
That sounds good Dennis!
Pearling! Great suggestion, Dennis!
Agreed, Scoutpost: That pic is sooo badly done.
Happy Birthday David.
About the flashes and the fact that Desmond sees one with Charlie helping with the parachute. Desmond says his flashes are like a jigsaw puzzle which means they aren't chronologically in order.
I think Maven's absolutely right that Desmond was meant to save Charlie this time, otherwise the flash with Charlie happening with the parachute would not have occurred. Desmond just didn't realize that at the time. Desmond did pass the test.
But how does that explain the flash of Charlie dying? Is more than one thing at work here? Flashes, plus something like the monster mixing with them? It doesn't make sense the way things happened for Desmond to be able to flash both Charlie's death and his help at the parachute. Which was the true flash and which the lie?
New J. Wood is up, and I just want to remind everyone I called liar's paradox last week.
Dennis,
That is the perfect suggestion for the lurker name change...
Especially since Flamer is already taken... lol
ALso on the Dezzi flash thing, I am not 100 % on this but I am pretty sure in one of the flashes it is clearly a light haired girl in the trees, but then when the get there, the person is wearing a helmet.
Indeed you did, Memphish! :-) And Ben is certainly the poster-boy for it. Not in this ep, but to "his people".
memphish, the j wood link is not working for me.
I can't believe that a musician would be stuck in the rain with his guitar exposed and would be having a light-hearted discussion about comic book characters instead of ranting about his guitar getting destroyed in the rain. For me that is the least believable part of the epi.
going back to the monty python stuff from the last post, you can really fit a lot of the Grail into LOST if you try hard enough:
Killer rabbit - the rabbit Ben used got really angry
The monks hitting themselves on the head - Brother Camnpbell possibly hitting Desmond on the head
It's just a flesh wound - so many people getting shot in the shoulder.
Not dead yet - well that's too obvious
Wouldn't it be funny if Rousseay catapulted a cow at the others?
Any others?
BTW Ded, now you must create a hula girl for your collage!
Heh-heh, Flamer...I just got that. ;-)
yeah, I can make a hula girl... although I was really looking forward to making a helicopter, but we never actually got to see the dang thing.
The podcast is here!
NEW POST!!!
Sorry this is late, I end up having to watch the episodes Thursday night.
Here are my thoughts:
1. I think it was Smokey/Cerberus that caused the chopper to crash. Like others have said, there was no storm, so it wasn't weather-related. If it wasn't Smokey, the only other thing I can think of would be that the chopper simply ran out of fuel (which is possible, since it sounded like the engine was sputtering). Running out of fuel would have been really stupid though, so I'm going with Smokey.
2. I don't want to try to wrap my head around the reason why Naomi was wearing a flight suit, but if she didn't eject from the chopper, my guess is that she ejected from a high-altitude balloon (like the real Henry Gale's). The only sounds we heard were from the chopper, not a jet, but a balloon would be silent. If Naomi did eject from the chopper, and Smokey was involved, I wonder if it wasn't Smokey that helped "push" her inland, as she would have ended up in the ocean had she ejected near where the chopper crashed.
3. I don't think Naomi was the pilot. Usually choppers fly with at least two people, and I don't think Naomi would have had the time if she were the pilot to gather her bag of belongings and eject.
4. I think Desmond knew as they were trekking through the jungle that he was being tested, and what the catch-22 really was. As they were approaching the area with the trip wire, you could see on his face that he was realizing the connection between Charlie and Penny -- Charlie dies, it's Penny who lands on the island; Charlie lives, and it's someone else who lands. I don't think Desmond's visions are simply glimpses of the future; they're tests, alluded to with the Biblical references (the sacrifice on the mountain, etc.). Whether Desmond passed or failed the test in this episode is beyond me, however.
5. I think the scene in the kitchen where Jack says "something's bound to go wrong" is definitely foreshadowing. As I said last week, I think Jack knows a lot more than he's letting on -- I think he knows about Juliet's con, and actually has his own con going against Juliet.
6. Hurley said that the battery in the satellite phone was dead, but the screen said "Internal Error." Either way, I predict a scene in a future episode where Sayid attempts to fix the phone, possibly in secret from the other Losties (to keep them from getting their hopes up). The phone may actually prove to be an advantage for the Losties, as if they can get it working, they'll be able to contact the outside world while the Others still cannot.
7. This may be a little late, but I think the tranquilizer that Juliet took while en route to the island was definitely linked to why Desmond and Locke couldn't speak after the Swan implosion. They were definitely planted in the jungle and didn't get thrown there (it seems they ended up a good distance away from the Swan, so if they were thrown, they'd have some pretty bad injuries).
i thought it was a funny parralel how the abott pulled the same stuff on desmond as mr. widmore about him not being worthy of drinking the expensive liquor
i know that desmond might have thought that penny was coming and letting charlie die might help that, but nothing in his vision showed penny being on the island, what confused him was the pic with him and penny and since apparently naomi had the pic it all seemed to go as planned, but i get the fate thing.
even if he is disapointed that it was naomi instead of penny, desmond has to realize its a good sign that someone that knows penny and is probably working with her made it to the island. Maybe her mission was to get to the point of the magnetic anomoly and drop a beacon. What i was wondering is if naomi is the something coming to the island in the previews that might mean salvation or annihilation. Cause if the island is invisible to the outside world since the purple sky the dharma/hanso force that i have been expecting to come since locke pushed 77 may have set up the beacon to find the island and send a force to come clean up the hostiles?
So when did Desmond run into Jack at the Stadium? When was that in his timeline?
i think everyone should go back to season 1 and watch a scene from the episode "special" - the scene where locke and boone are teaching walt how to throw knives ..
locke says to walt, "see it before you do it .. see it ." it sounds a lot like desmonds flashes .
walt says something like, "it was weird .. i saw it in my mind, like it was real" - to which locke replies, "who's to say it wasn't ?"
maybe what walt was seeing really WAS real .. it just hadn't happened yet .
Testing...
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