Thursday, April 19, 2007

The Lost Community Podcast - Episode 21

Here it is - Episode 21 of the Lost Community Podcast and it was LIVE! Join hosts David A Dein, Steve "The Goog" Guglich, and some special guests as they unpack the brand new episode "Catch-22".

If you missed the live broadcast, feel free to comment on our lunacy by sending an email to TLCpodcast@gmail.com or by calling our listener line 732-564-4763.

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298 comments:

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Friday's_Child said...

First???

Friday's_Child said...

Really?? No way!!

Friday's_Child said...

Now I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone. Was I really and truly first?

maven said...

1st 2nd and 3rd, friday's child! LOL

maven said...

Gotta watch Grey's and ER. Will listen to the podcast tomorrow AM.

Friday's_Child said...

I had just that second logged on for the first time in a week. I can't believe how I lucked into that!

Howdy, Maven!

maven said...

Timing is everything, Friday's!
LOL

takes a village said...

Memphish,
From last post:Religious experience.
Yeah,you are right.Basketball, Football, Basketball.It must have been like that when the Red Sox won the World Series.Did you see Jack's face?
Desmond is like Prince Charming,but I can see as a Father why Papa Widmore went to such lengths to keep him away from Penny.(He comes in on a white horse,and the next thing you know,he's riding off into the sunset...by himself.)

memphish said...

Sorry about the bad J. Wood link in the last thread. Try this one.

Administrator said...

Passafist & Goog,
Thanks for the beautiful singing! And Happy Birthday to Pastor Keith.

CattyGirl said...

Good Morning all! I have the day off today and plan to enjoy every minute of it... I'm starting my day here. hahaha.

Dennis said...

Good Morning :)

The best part of waking up, is TLC in your cup!

maven said...

IThis is the first thing I do every morning!
Listening to podcast now....

Erich said...

Listening to the discussion of Abraham sacrificing Isaac (as a metaphor for Desmond's let-Charlie-die "test") and remembered something from the Bible story:

When God stopped Abraham from going through with the sacrifice of his son, he provided a ram as a substitute offering. The ram was caught in a nearby bush.

Not unlike Naomi being caught in the tree, dontcha think?

It also seemed like David glossed over the whole "108 bottles of wine" thing. I think it was more than a throw-away easter egg. By drinking two of the bottles, Desmond changed the final total from 108 to 106. While I don't think this meant he actually changed "the numbers," I do think it was a metaphor.

Seems a little too coincidental that the person who appears to have the ability to change the future would be shown metaphorically changing the numbers. I'm pretty sure that was the main focus of DHARMA in their attempt to alter the course of human history...that is, change the future.

Time to finish listening to the podcast...

FYSB said...

Happy Friday LoCo! (and happy belated birthday, David, sorry I missed it. Sounds like you and Mrs. Admin have lots to celebrate these days, so congrats on Admin Jr. too!)

Now back to Lost....remember last season when Bernard was trying so hard to set up an SOS and no one would help him? Then he found out Rose was cured, so he lost interest in rescue (and in being on camera it seems). Other than that, only Michael was ever really passionate about getting off the island. And he did escape, though he sacrificed his friends to do it.

It seems to me that Juliet is the only other character that really has a compelling reason and the passion to escape. The Others ain't leaving, and most of the Losties are either experiencing better life/relationships on the island than they ever did off of it OR they have some serious consequences to face if they ever make it back OR both.

I don't know where all this is going, though with the ongoing topic of sacrifice, it made me wonder just how far Juliet will go to get back home.

maven said...

FSYB: Good to "see" you! Like where you're going with "do they really want to leave" theory. Jack did make a deal with the devil to get off the island, so he seems interested in leaving (or maybe being with Juliet is pulling him to go with her). I guess a lot of the Losties are sort of resigned to their fate. There really is not much they can do at this point to instigate a rescue, is there? Jack was right to try to work out a deal with Ben since he seemed to be the only one who has the means to get people on and off the island.

FYSB said...

Hey Maven! Good to see you too. I can't remember...was Jack all that fired up to leave before he saw Kate and Sawyer getting busy? I don't remember how he acted when Michael was building the boat. Do you?

scoutpost said...

Hey fysb! good points about the Losties and their desire to get off the island. I have been wondering myself how far Juliet will go. I think- pretty far. As far as Jack goes, he pretty much has been putting out fires that other Losties have started since they've been there and hasn't had much time to actually be proactive in getting off the island. So it is hard to gauge him, but I do think he wants to get off pretty bad. Don't know that he has the desperation that Michael and Juliet have though.

Dennis said...

I heard a Lost recap on the radio yesterday I thought I would do a little snooping around to see if I could find it.

I found it on the ABC Radio website, and it's called Get Lost with ABC. It's a 60 second recap of "Catch-22", featuring Jorge Garcia.

In the clip the narrator says "The four men see a helicopter crash." and the "The helicopter passenger is hurt, but alive."


BTW, I found some older ones as well:

"One of Us", featuring Matthew Fox.

"Man of Science, Man of Faith", featuring Daniel Dae Kim

"Adrift", featuring Malcom David Kelly

There is also an expaned text recap of Catch-22. I was going to post it here, but it's a little long. BTW, the text version doesn't mention a helicopter.

2costa said...

nothing in his vision showed penny being on the island, what confused him was the pic with him and penny and since apparently naomi had the pic it all seemed to go as planned, but i get the fate thing,even if he is disapointed that it was naomi instead of penny, desmond has to realize its a good sign that someone that knows penny and is probably working with her made it to the island. Maybe her mission was to get to the point of the magnetic anomoly and drop a beacon. What i was wondering is if naomi is the something coming to the island in the previews that might mean salvation or annihilation. If the island is invisible to the outside world since the purple sky the dharma/hanso force that i have been expecting to come since locke pushed 77 may have set up the beacon to find the island and send a force to come clean up the hostiles?
I thought it was a funny parralel how the abott pulled the same stuff on desmond as mr. widmore about him not being worthy of drinking the expensive liquor

Amanda said...

Hey guys...thanks for recording the Podcast when David was going out of town.

And thanks for saying that we're nice here! I never remember to look at the site, so it was smart to plug it.

Yeah...why was Desmond so sure it was Penny? And why did Hurley start saying "she?" when they were getting to Naomi.

Dennis said...

The translation for Jin's ghost story is up on Lostpedia:

(little girl's voice) Thank God. I was frightened you’d left because I double-crossed you.”

(narrator's voice) After hearing this, the man smiled and said...

(man's voice) “Don’t worry, dear girl. You should know that I have… A HOOK FOR A HAND!!!”

Melissa_Lossa said...

I LOVE that translation. It seems so cheesy. Although it's interesting that it mentions a double cross!

DeDJeZTeR said...

Amanda,
Hurley changed to say she and her after Charlie asked Desmond if it was her who fell to the island and Desmond said that he had hoped, but now he knows (it's her) so therefore they are all under the assumtion that they are indeed searching for Penny, because Desmond see's the future and they believe him.

2costa said...

ya buy desmond didnt see penny in the future he saw the pic

Sayid'sgirl said...

I think he probably assumed Penny was the only one who had that picture. So assumed it was Penny who was coming.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I just went back and looked again in slow motion and the very last image in Desmond's original flash was of Penny but I can' make out for sure if she is in the jungle.

takes a village said...

David & Alli,
An unusual name for your Son;
Admin.(I always kidded our Daughter that I wanted to name her Polly Ester).

Dudu Maroja said...

Concerning Jacob:

I really believe Jacob exist, just think... Juliet is a scientist, Why she should have faith on someone she never met, never saw?

I guess Ben showing himself as Jacob is sooooo Exposè

Script:

Juliet enter in the room in bikinis and say

" Its the Losties Money! Mr. Ben, You are Jacob! "

Amused2bHere said...

Wow, that twist with the chick at the end was mind bending. Better still was seeing Ms Hawking in the picture on the monk's desk. A real "what the ?" moment for me, in each case.

Favorite lines: toss up between all of Hurley's dialogue and almost anything out of Sawyer's mouth. These two crack me up!

Favorite moment: has to be Hurley's reaction to Jin's story. LOL

Amused2bHere said...

Here's an interesting note on the Sacrifice of Isaac:

When God tested Abraham, it was not for God to see what Abraham would do. God already knew Abraham's heart. The test was for Abraham to see what was in Abraham's heart, mainly because you can't know what you would do in a given situation until you are IN that situation. We all know what we hope we would do, but it isn't until we are faced with it in real life that our heart becomes visible.

In Desmond's case, if Penny is his Isaac then his willingness to lose her and keep Charlie alive should end up with his getting both Charlie and Penny alive and well. We'll see...

Amused2bHere said...

Sorry for the string of posts (looks like no one is here but me) but I just read Doc Jensen's recap of "One of Us" on darkufo, and he mentions his wife Amy is going for her last radiation treatment, and then a check up this week to see if she is cancer free.

I just thought I'd share this, and those so inclined can pray for Amy.

I now return you to your regular blog.

memphish said...

Morning LoCos!

I just listened to the live podcast. It was fun to hear Jonathan, LGLM and Dennis.

David, I hope you're wacky theory is wrong, though I agree why give us a Ruth and a Naomi if they aren't connected at all.

I think Naomi's been sent by Penny and the polar Portugese-speaking boys. Once Penny knows for sure where Desmond is then she'll show up just like she did in LA.

memphish said...

There's a new OLP up.

ib4uc said...

memphish... thanks for the heads-up on the OLP. Going to listen right now.

ib4uc said...

Be forewarned, the OLP is kinda spoilerish but it does answer some questions.

Darkaardvark said...

As this is nothing that I think TPTB feel they will need to bring up again, I feel I should point out that the OLP says (and I've explained why it's nonspoiler):

Christian. Shepard. Is. Dead.


And then Damon helpfully adds "Unless Carlton is talking about some other meaning of the word dead!"

But he's dead.

maven said...

Morning all...hope everyone is having a great weekend!

Just listened to the ABC Podcast, and I guess I have to accept the Christian is DEAD! On to bigger and better theories! LOL

This podcast was actually the most informative I've heard in a long time. C & L actually gave some straightforward answers (although occasionally they left some doors open).

2costa said...

Well to expound on the issac thing if God hadnt spared issac there would have been no jacob since he was his son. Msybe it ties in somehow

ib4uc said...

2costa... maybe it ties in somehow:

Desmond = Abraham
Charlie = Isaac
Aaron = Jacob
Ben = Benjamin

Desmond saves Charlie who is a father-figure to Aaron. With this whole time-travel stuff, maybe it's possible that Aaron/Jacob is Ben's father and that's why he is so important to the Others.

Sounds crazy, I know.

Shakey said...

Quick points:

Naomi doesn't necessarily have to be the chopper pilot - could be she's just been "dropped off" (which is why she was properly suited up and ready for the jump), but the chopper hit problems (for whatever reason) and the pilot ultimately lost it and dumped into the ocean. These "issues" could well mess up Naomi's jump (which is already difficult as it's at night) to cause her hitting the treeline.

I like the "Final Destination" idea with Charlie, but I don't think it fits with the feel of the show - if anything is stalking the LOSTies it's either human (Others) or pseudo-mechanical (Smokie) - all the metaphysical stuff is questions of Faith, not the Reaper himself coming to collect what is his.

Remember Charlie saying that somebody needs to find Desmond another button to push? Well I'd say saving Charlie's life every couple of days is Desmond's new button!

Desomd's timeline seems to fit OK, albeit he's a busy bunny:

• 89-95: relationship with Ruth
• 95: at the monastery (for no more than 2 months I'd say - a month's silence and a month tops before leaving)
• 95: meets Penny, judging by the "love at first sight" awkwardness and looks between the two I'd say they hook up pretty soon
• 95-97: relationship with Penny

We now have a 4-year gap to fill in which Desmond joins the Royal Scots, serves his prison sentence and finally gets threatened by Charles Widmore to stay away from Penny

• 2001: training for or actually competing in the world boat race and washes up on the island
• Sept. 2001-2004: button pushing on the island

A hectic 9 years but for a man who's been thrust into a destiny in 1995, which ultimately revolves around heartbreak, it's not too much to do really (I've seen it happen in my life and a few friends where you have years of emotional rollercoaster).

Now, as an aside, this means Desmond isn't cradle-snatching the very young-looking Ruth, I think it's just the pure logistics of a 40-year old Henry Ian Cusick having to act in a situation which occurred 16 years previous which makes things look a little odd - I doubt ABC have the budget for the CG work that went into Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan in X-Men 3!

DeDJeZTeR said...

Afternoon Loco's

Happy belateds to everyone.

People need to stop using the term BAY DADDY before it ends uo in a dictionary... lol
D'oh

And yaeh that was pretty informative of them.

C-ya and Namaste

2costa said...

i bet sayid could rig a cord from something else to charge the satalite phone, he could go to the pearl to charge it.

Darkaardvark said...

Thoughts after rewatching Catch-22:

-The chopper landed in the ocean but Naomi landed in the jungle- so the chopper was flying over the island? I'm pretty sure Naomi jumped up. Whether or not there was another pilot, it wasn't an eject, it was a deliberate jump- she just got tangled up in the trees.

-In Desmond's opening flash, after Charlie's been hit, he says "We've gotta get back." Later, we see Charlie helping cut down the chute. Like others have said, Desmond was probably meant to save Charlie all along. I wonder how it will all play out (I've got my own thought on that, but I'll save it for later- it involves Claire)?

- In the opening flash, Charlie says "pair of Kryptonite----" and sees the wire, followed by "What the hell?" In the actual scene, he says "pair of Kryptonite ballet slippers---" and then stops. The two scenes are decidedly different. Did Desmond change the future already? Or is it just a natural consequence of his flashes not being perfect?

-After the satellite phone dies, Charlie says "Shocker." Just a nice little reference to the Gilligan's Island-esque way every escape attempt always fails. Funny.

ib4uc said...

dedjezter... yeah, I don't like the term "Baby Daddy" either. But it is kind of funny to hear them use it.

2costa... The satellite phone -- I hope someone, specifically Sayid, can do something with it.

capcom said...

Amused, thank you for that word on Doc J's wife, I did not know that.

Aardvark, so Christian S. is nothing more than a skeevy guy who sows his oats all around the universe like Capt. Kirk? :o)

About Lost and the Old Testament, there doesn't necessarily have to be direct fulfillment of allegory in the story. TPTB could be writing the story the way Tolkien wrote his (according to Tolkien), i.e., nothing completely represented one thing or another (e.g., sin or Jesus), but that elements were used in peoples' personalities, and events that happened, to reflect various elements of the Bible, or Beowulf, etc. And those representations sometimes crossed over. Or, direct allegory is exactly what TPTB are doing, and I'm fullovvitt, haha.

Good points Shakey, and I can be swayed to get on board with all of them. Although, it still looked a little icky for Dez to be with such a youngun. If they couldn't freshen Dez up, they could have at least picked an older looking girl to play his ex. But who knows, she could just be a very young looking 40 year old? :o)

Did you mean 'baby daddy' Ded? If so, I agree, I keep thinking that people are using bad grammer when they type "Sun's baby daddy", and that they mean "Sun's baby's daddy"

maven said...

Shakey: Thanks for putting Desmond's timeline in perspective. It makes sense seeing it written down. But, you're right...he has definitely packed a lot of life into the last 15 years or so! It either shows he can't commit to one thing (Ruth, the Monastery, Penny, the Royal Scots) or else his destiny on the island was something out of his control!

Re the sat phone: They sure treated that find pretty nonchalantly. I'm sure Sayid could do something with it.

Ange said...

*wave* back from England, jet lagged and tired, but watching Lost with an actual TLC-er was pretty cool. Oh yeah and the touristy junk was nice too. Going to get caught up maybe-probably, before I even attempt to comment.

maven said...

Ange! Welcome home! Sounds like you had a great time! Can't wait to hear all about Fenris! LOL Rest up!

Shakey said...

I think the nonchalant treatment of the sat phone is intentional.

I should imagine it's standard gear that goes with the flight uniform Naomi's wearing, but after so many radios and other ways of off-island communication either failing or leading to more badness in 3 months I'd be "so, it's a radio - and it doesn't work - like THAT's a surprise".

The clincher here though is that it's a brand new device in both quality and design, not archaic or weathered like the stuff we've seen so far, so there's a good chance Sayid can do something with it.

It just now depends on WHY the Purpling has knocked out comms - EMP blowing out all existing electronics in non-shielded systems, or some kind of dampening field blocking transmissions? (I refer you back to TLE research blog where I and a few others discussed the Swan as an EM radiation shield theory).

Fenris said...

Hi guys, this is just a fly by posting before I shoot off to bed. Here's a few things:

1) There is no mention of exactly how long Desmonds vow of silence was. We are teased about it but never actually told. I suspect it was longer then a month. Perhaps a year or maybe 108 days.

2) Each bottle goes for "Over £100", so maybe £108? So that's 108 bottles of £108 wine.

3) I'm not convinced of how genuine these recent Des flashbacks are. If they are genuine it certainly looks like there were plans for Des long ago, but I suspect it is the flashbacks that are dodgy themselves.

4) My big theory of the day is this: I said before I thought the sub had to dive extra deep to get to the island. So what if you can also get there by approaching from extra high up. So our new arrival may have done a "HALO jump" from high altitude. The helicopter then crashed after the jump. The reason for the huey was because a plane wold crash on the island and cause unknown damage where as the huey would fall to sea and the reason it's not penny is simply that she's not trained for HALO jumping.

Still though the island accesability is in question while Micheal appears to have left it just by following a set course, but I suspect we'll find out about Micheal soon enough.

and that's all folks.

Fenris said...

Okay, now going to bed.

Just got to say as an addition I'm kinda disapointed at the outright denial about the Christian theories in the podcast. I don't mind being wrong, although it was nice to speculate. Mostly though it means if he turns up again on the island we will *know* he is smokey, which takes some mystery out of that and that kinda sucks.

capcom said...

I think that HALO (low opening) and also HAHO (high opening) jumps are done from planes not helos (at around 26-36,000ft...brrr), such as C-130s where you can jump out of the back. A UH-1 (huey class) and other helos can reach around 20,000ft, but what's a few thousand feet to a jumper I guess. :-) Our jumper just didn't seem to have the type of gear needed to jump at the subzero temps possible in that kind of jump (thermal-everything, extra O2...), but I could be wrong. Or, TPTB just didn't bother with that...unless when she takes off her jumpsuit she has a thick set of big thermal undies on. :o)

But this type of high altitude free-fall dumping is also used for cargo/equipment drops from C-130s, possibly as in our mysteriously silent supply-drops onto the island! So you may be on to something here in a sense, Fenris.

And how do we know for sure that "Penneh" has not put herself through Special Forces training to parachute down to her Dezzy? You know what she said, "With enough time and money..." :o)

Amused2bHere said...

welcome back Ange! glad you had a great time over there.

And let me say thanks to David and Steve for the live podcast. That was funny, it sounded like you all had a good time. Good to hear Jonathan, Lucky Guy, and Dennis!

I am looking forward to the recaps of the past two seasons. Hey, Passafist, are they going to be in any particular order?

scoutpost said...

fenris said...
Mostly though it means if he turns up again on the island we will *know* he is smokey, which takes some mystery out of that and that kinda sucks.

That's what I was thinking Fenris- I agree, it was kind of nice not knowing for sure. Maybe it's not as big a deal as we think and that's why they admitted that.

Fenris said...

Capcom - Hehe, glad you know a bit more about it. It was one of those things, where I had a hunch but really needed to do the research. I thought of it late last night and was too sleepy to find out the details. It just seemed to fit on the surface. Still there is some possibility there, I will find out more and come back to it.

Scoutpost - I just thought it was strange the very very definitive way they put it. Usually they at least make a statement then tease it a bit. But this was like 100%. So either they lie in the podcast or the mystery is totally gone. The thing is we've seen Christian on the island, pressumably as Smokey. So it's reasonable to think we may see him again some time in the future and we will know it's smokey.

Just seems to me that they are cutting off their own options. Perhaps they don't intend to have him appear as smokey again. *shrug*

Shakey said...

IMO I don't think we've ever seen enough in the show to say that Smokey manifests as something from the observer's past - we're always theorising and suggesting it because out of everything we don't know about the show, Smokey is the BIGGEST "wtf" so far.

I've always tried to take what TPTB say with a pinch of salt, but I genuinely believe them when they say that everything in the show is explanable by modern or near-modern science and technology. That's what's going to keep this show grounded and make us all go OMG when everything is finally revealed, so to have things that are true sci-fi or fanatasy will just mess around with the show too much.

To that end, having Smokey change shape, alter its pigmentation on local levels or change its light refractive properties to recolour parts of itself, recreate a personality close enough to convince the observer in ways beyond a dossier or personality profile could do and generally appear more solid than just a could of smoke I think is stretching things too far.

This is why we didn't see Yemi turn into a black cloud and twat Eko there and then.

As a result I have no problem with the fact TPTB have 100% stated that Christian is dead. In fact I actually like knowing this as fact because that opens up the question of "OK, he's dead - so how the hell did Jack see him standing there!".

Ange said...

shakey said...I have no problem with the fact TPTB have 100% stated that Christian is dead. In fact I actually like knowing this as fact because that opens up the question of "OK, he's dead - so how the hell did Jack see him standing there!".

If they are not seeing the actual people/things, and we presume that it is not Smokey manifesting as these things (which I am on the fence about) there is still the idea that this could all be a hallucination. Like that paste that Locke put on Boone, or the sickness that we still know little to nothing about. There are still many options as to how people are seeing their loved ones minus the idea that it is Smokey...although Locke's father being tied to a chair really doesn't fit in anywhere for me at the moment.

Shakey said...

ange:

Who's to say that the islands EM properties have gone away just because the Swan hatch has imploded. COnstant exposure to strong EM fields can do weird things to a human brain, so perhaps all these occurances are indeed hallucinations induced by EM affects on the brain.

The flashbacks in the show are not only a narrative device used to explain to the viewer a character's motivations for an action or how their history has directed their thought process, but they also work as memory flashes for the character as well - it's topical for both view and character at the same time.

When we've seen something from a character's past, be it the horse, cat or Chris Shep, the character observing it is in some higher-than-normal mental or emotional state. Trigger a relevant memory with the EM field kicking into the brain and bang! one hallucination.

I want it to mean something though, even if it's "yes, they are nothing more than hallucinations, but here's why..."

Locke's dad though is totally different...imposter maybe? Makeup? Bad (or badder) Twin? Alias-style doubling technology?

experimentalfilm! said...

posted this in the last thread by accident .

i think everyone should go back to season 1 and watch a scene from the episode "special" - the scene where locke and boone are teaching walt how to throw knives ..

locke says to walt, "see it before you do it .. see it ." it sounds a lot like desmonds flashes .

walt says something like, "it was weird .. i saw it in my mind, like it was real" - to which locke replies, "who's to say it wasn't ?"

maybe what walt was seeing really WAS real .. it just hadn't happened yet .

experimentalfilm! said...

crazy idea #2:

since walt is reading about birds and one crashes into the window, and hes reading about polar bears and a polar bear comes, an idea came to me ..

what if desmond's flashes arent just the future at all .. what if he's just activating the "box" ? that he's thinking about what he wants to come from this island and it happens ? maybe .

memphish said...

Interesting discussion about manifestations and Smokey and the box and whatever else is going on.

I recently finished Alice in Wonderland and Alice's adventures are a dream. That leads me to conclude that the appearance of Christian on Island in White Rabbit is also a type of dream vision, almost like the wacky-paste induced vision quest of Boone's as Ange mentioned. Don't forget, Locke assisted Jack on his quest as well.

But this makes me wonder something more. What if Jack has something like flashes like Desmond? These "visions," "impressions," "intuitions" whatever they are help guide him on his path a la the ever so creepy Mrs. Hawking. His promise to Sarah to fix her that seems so impulsive and wrong -- a flash, which is why she is indeed fixed. Finding water when they most need it -- a flash. Why doesn't Jack have more? Because he out-logics it most of the time. It's only when he's at the end of himself that these things occur.

Sara, I also like your idea that Desmond may be activating the box, but if so, why all the Charlie visions instead of Penny visions?

capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
capcom said...

Well Fenris, I think that you're on to something there anyway. A HALO cargo drop would totally explain how the supply drop could have been implemented without anyone hearing any type of aircraft flying over. And it's entirely possible that that's how Miss Jumper got over the island too. Especially if extreme caution on the part of the people flying in is being exercised, since they don't know what they will find when they do get to the island, and maybe they wanted to sneak in. That also may be why they chose to do their insertion at night. If that's the case, TPTB just didn't bother to use the proper gear that she would need to do that, and why should they bother for something that insignificant. :o) I also have a problem with the paultry group of items that she brought in her pack, which is not nearly enough for survival in a jungle jump, but oh well.

But I'm also now of the mindset that thinks that after the Purpling, there is possibly no more protective magnetic/gravitational/optical/light-bending/whatever property (i.e., invisible domed force) to keep people from finding the island now. So maybe aircraft, ships, whatever, can just sashay right up to the island! Until we learn otherwise, that's what I'm leaning towards for now.

I think that our speculation about Smokey and the apparitions is slightly altered now by the knowledge of the "Wish Box", for lack of a better word. This Box thing might be able to make people actually see what they want to see ("Gee, I wish I could see my dad/brother again"), but not necessarily manifest it materially as a solid object. At least that we know so far. And we don't know if The Box and Smokey are related yet, and part of the same "mechanism", or if they are separate intities entirely. For example, if they are related, Smokey could read the individual, relay it back to The Box, The Box tells Smokey what to do, and Smokey induces the apparition or, actually physically turns itself into the object required for that particular moment or person.

capcom said...

"Out, out, damm typos!!!" Blogger version of Lady Macbeth. :o)

Ange said...

capcom said...If that's the case, TPTB just didn't bother to use the proper gear that she would need to do that

Well, that might explain why she was in such rough shape, high altitude jump sans proper gear. Granted hanging from a tree all night might well do it too, but perhaps with proper gear along with her deployed parachute, she could have been okay enough to cut herself down. Also, I REALLY like what you said about the "paltry" gear in the pack. That is an excellent point.

ALSO...Dark UFO has some reverse speach of Charlie from the flashbacks of Catch-22 up today under the screencaps Here. INTERESTING!

maven said...

Hey, gang! Like the discussion that Capcom brought up re the fact that Naomi doesn't have much survival gear in her backpack. Maybe she wasn't supposed to in survival mode when she parachuted in...and she was meeting up with Others (so she knew she wouldn't need to fend for herself). Now this would lead to the speculation that Penny might be aware of the goings on on the island with the Others if she did send Naomi with the Desmond/Penny pic.

Ange: Thanks for pointing out that reverse speech on DarkUFO. Who know what that means?

capcom said...

Ruh-roh!

Good thoughts Maven! And if Naomi was meeting up with the Others, maybe she was supplying some info that the Others are lacking about Desmond? Or at least informing them that "...such-and-such-a-guy is here on the island and he is associated in some way with {dundundun} our friends Widmore products company"!. Since they don't have Patchy, or the Flame either, to get info for them, maybe it was being flown/dropped in. Is that what you meant Maven?

Since Jules was apparently giving Dez that weird look at the end of the ep, maybe she was sent to the beach to learn everything that she can about Dez. Just like Ethan and Goodwin were sent to the beach to learn about everyone else? Oh boy.

Oh well, it could be a long shot. If Naomi had something to hide, she probably would not have said Desmond's name when she was coming-to. Maybe would have said, "Where's Ben" instead.

maven said...
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maven said...
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maven said...

Capcom: I never really think these things through! LOL I was just speculating that maybe Naomi did have a connection with Widmore/Dharma, and therefore, the Others, and knew that she didn't needn't a whole bunch of survivial gear on the island. And if she was sent to give them info on Desmond...that's why she said "Desmond" when waking up...she had Desmond on the brain! Pretty sketching speculating, huh? LOL

Fenris said...

Hey Shakey, don't get me wrong I'm not saying Smokey can manifest itself into people from the Losties past. So far the only people I think it's manifested as are people that are physically on the island (that is to say their bodies are).

I get your point though. Question is where do you draw the line. Is there an explenation to justify Desmonds apparent precognition that isn't any more science fiction then a Cerberus defence system that can shape itself to appear in the form of people it has analysed?

As far as I can see, the only explenations for most things on the island that isn't going to be at least arguably on par with smokey changing it's appearance is going to involve hollucagenic(sp?) drugs and basically lead us to a point where most of what we have experienced hasn't actually been real (I mean aside from it being a TV show of course).

I think what it comes down to is where people draw the line. To me I would find scanning peoples brains on sight and appearing as things from their past too far fetched, but not being able to physically scan dead bodies and read info from them and appear as those people were when they were alive. That to me is on the right side of acceptable. But then I watch a lot of sci-fi, lol.

Capcom - too tired to reply to the full post, just had to say LOL at the Lady MacBeth bit.

Darkaardvark said...

"So far the only people I think it's manifested as are people that are physically on the island (that is to say their bodies are)."


Kate's horse
Dave (debatable)
Sayid's cat

Shakey said...

fenris:

I concur about where do you draw the line, and how I'm in two minds about how I feel about Desmond is a good example of where the line is I think:

I'm happier with a more mystical or psychic slant on his flashes, precognition and even Fate or Destiny embodied in a dream-like state or deja-vu than I would be with temporal rifts, alternative timelines or time loops.

We've seen psychics talking to Clare, spirit walks from Locke and questions of Faith and I am fine with all of those things, as they are part of our world (whether you believe or agree is a different matter), but having Desmond out-of-time resulting from the Swan hatch tearing a hole in the space-time continuum is the realm of Star Trek or Babylon 5, and even though theoretical physics can allow for such things they are still obviously "sci-fi".

Certainly I would feel cheated if the grand reveal of Desmond was he is indeed stuck out of time because of some temporal rift from an EM implosion yet a real-world person knows all about it and him and can attempt to guide (Quantum Leap anybody?). Yet if Ms. Hawking was the representation of Destiny or Fate manifest through a lucid dream or empathic episode I'd have less of a problem.

Same goes for Smokey - a cloud of nanomachines manipulated through a controlled EM field would be great. That same thing manifesting into physcial forms, mind-reading and going rogue with a pseudo-intelligence acting as judge, jury and executioner would cross the line.

And a "wish hard enough and it will appear" box would just piss me off lol!

FYSB said...

Shakey, et al...I went in a different direction when Ben described the wish box. For some reason, I really thought it was more metaphor than real. When he was trying to sucker John into helping the others, he offers him this thought "If there was a box and you could wish for anything you wanted to come out of it, what would it be?" Of course, for John, it would be the KidneyStealingDad. Anyone who knew anything about John could have made that guess (and Ben knows a LOT about John). Since The Others could come and go from the island until the Purpling, it's possible they had the KidneyStealingDad for some time and were just waiting to play their cards. Even if John had wished for a pile of Apollo bars, when the door opened and he saw his dad, he would have thought "Wow, that box knows me better than I know myself".

scoutpost said...

fysb said...
I went in a different direction when Ben described the wish box. For some reason, I really thought it was more metaphor than real. When he was trying to sucker John into helping the others, he offers him this thought "If there was a box and you could wish for anything you wanted to come out of it, what would it be?" Of course, for John, it would be the KidneyStealingDad.

I agree fysb that the whole "box" thing isn't as simple as wish and it will come true- sounds like a Disney movie (hmmm Disney= ABC). Anyway, I think there is more to that story and how it works, if indeed it is real and not a metaphor as you stated. I also really think that- in the event that the "box" is real and it really does work along those lines-that Sawyer is the one who brought AC there and not Locke. Basing that on the theory that AC is the real Sawyer. Lots of speculation on my part I know.

Experimentalfilm- you bring up good points from that Season 1 epi. There have been a lot of lines thrown in like those about Locke, Walt, etc. that are clues, but we just don't know to what exactly. I guess in the long 6 month break between seasons I'll sit down with pen and paper and rewatch all three seasons making sure to record all relevant data I've forgotton from past episodes. LOL

Shakey said...

lol I never intended to inmply I believe the literal interpretation of the wish box - I agree that it's entirely a metaphor on Ben's part.

Was just joking that IF this box really does turn out to be a literal wishing well then I'll be somewhat peeved :P

I like where the idea of everybody has some kind of precognition/flashes on the island so I'll be reading closely how that theory unfolds. Certainly there's the common belief that time runs differently on the island, so it's a side effect that time tries to reassert itself in some way by leaking little bursts of "real-speed" time (i.e. stuff that's going to happen if time ran at normal speed) over "island slow" time (what the LOSTies are experiencing), which could be interpretted as precognition. Des is our character to focus clearly on this phenomenon, which is why it seems for now it's exclusive to him.

Shifting to the topic of the "box" for a moment, which characters have we seen want something badly enough it happens?

I can only really think of Ben - he got his spinal surgeon drop out of the sky - and Locke who wanted to walk again.

I discount Walt because he's something different I reckon (but we'll never know unless he's brought back into the show) and Locke's dad because we just don't have a clue what's up with that. I'm also discounting Rose because she was at peace with her condition.

However, Bernard wanted Rose's cancer gone so perhaps it was HIS desire which cured her.

So that's Ben, Locke and Bernard. Anybody else?

Shakey said...

Oh yeah and Sawyer wanted some hot Kate action so the island made Jack fall for Jules to piss Kate off so she'd jump him :P

maven said...

Morning gang!

Shakey said: I'm happier with a more mystical or psychic slant on his flashes, precognition and even Fate or Destiny embodied in a dream-like state or deja-vu than I would be with temporal rifts, alternative timelines or time loops.

You stated exactly how I also feel. I'm willing to buy the mystical/psychic slant vs sci-fi timelines and rifts. The island seems more mysterious and dreamlike than way out sci-fi stuff. When I started watching the show from day one, the mystery was the draw even if it was drawn out at a slow pace. The sci-fi stuff would almost be a cop out to me...almost a too easy answer to all of our questions.

Scoutpost and EF: After all this is over, we're all going to be astonished how well everything fits together! There's going to be many of us having "aha!" moments when we realize that a little throwaway scene or dialog meant to much in the long run.

FYSB said...

Shakey, I'm right there with you. Interesting question about wishing for things (snicker, snicker re: Sawyer wishing for Kate!) There aren't that many that I can recall - Claire's peanut butter? Bernard finding Rose? Michael wanting off the island? None so significant or tangible as Locke's dad.

EF, I was intrigued at your point of Walt and the knives and the polar bear. I think at the time I believed he was causing these things to happen, but in light of Desmond's talent, I wonder if Walt hadn't just seen the future on all accounts.

Shakey said...

maven:
"You stated exactly how I also feel"

Yeah I know - I had a flash of something to come so I had to make sure I wrote what I was supposed to write, otherwise my ex-girlfriend won't be hanging from a tree when I get home...

capcom said...

Hi All,

I would not be too unhappy if there was a bit of freaky science extrapolation mixed in with the subjects of Smokey, the flashes, The Wishbox Metaphor, etc. Anything that fits in with the weird science that was presented to us during TLE, would be fine with me. And if the science application is stretched just a tad towards theories that could be possible in the future and is not too wacky, I'm good with that. I would like the mysterious aspects to be somewhat more substantial than merely phsycic abilities alone.

I guess what I'm saying is, something unusual like Picsel's Heironymous box would be A-OK for me! :o)

BTW, Picsel, hope you're doing well on your tests! We miss ya.

capcom said...

BTW-2, TLCM, if you can read this, we miss you very much also, and hope that you are well. XO

Shakey said...

I agree Capcom but the freaky science would have to be well written to avoid the usual sci-fi cliche and lazy cop-outs.

For example, using autistic savants as human computers is cool - we saw that in Cube when working out prime factors of prime factors in a cartesian positioning system. Using the same savants to work on mental abilities, such as the almost-confirmed-but-not-quite pyrokenisis and (my lovely idea) telepathic human computer networking is also very cool.

But if Desmond was thrown through a tear in the space-time continuum resulting from the EM anomoly detonation that is SO Star Trek and sucks.

I think that pretty much draws the line that we all seem to agree on.

Dennis said...

Shakey said... I agree Capcom but the freaky science would have to be well written to avoid the usual sci-fi cliche and lazy cop-outs. For example, using autistic savants as human computers is cool - we saw that in Cube when working out prime factors of prime factors in a cartesian positioning system. Using the same savants to work on mental abilities, such as the almost-confirmed-but-not-quite pyrokenisis and (my lovely idea) telepathic human computer networking is also very cool.

We also saw in TLE that Dr. Mittelwerk was using a group of autistic savants to secretly run the Valenzetti Equation at the Vik Institute in Iceland.

memphish said...

Way back in Ep. 3.2 Colleen said: No you won't, Sun. I know you, Sun Hwa Kwon. And I know you're not a killer. But despite what you may think, I am not the enemy. We are not the enemy. But if you shoot me, that's exactly what we'll become.

Could it be that Juliet's mission on the beach has nothing to do with fertility but is instead a mission to exact justice for Colleen's death? Since Juliet killed Pickett who would have been the one entitled to take Sun's life in the eye-for-eye system of the Others, Juliet must now execute Sun's sentence.

Then Juliet will be caught in a Catch-22 because she'll have identified a guinea pig, Sun, for her experiments which if she can succeed at Ben will finally allow her to leave, but she's supposed to kill Sun. Maybe this will be when Juliet swings (again) from evil to good, from them to us.

Shakey said...

dennis:

that's exactly what I was referring to, and cited Cube as an example of where else it's been done successfully - thanks for clarifying my post

Twinkle said...

Abraham/Isaac thing.

If the one thing Abraham wanted so badly and Got asked him to sacrifice was Isaac, then maybe the one thing Desmond wants so badly that the Island is asking him to sacrifice is Penny?

How does that change the episode if Penny is the sacrifice instead of Charlie?

(Hi, everybody!)

Also the horse and polar bear could have been real animals and not manifestations of the monster. That hasn't been proved.

Anybody noticed Juliet's hair? I posted an observation about that and other stuff on storiesofthelost.blogspot.com.

Amused2bHere said...

placeholder!

I guess I should put Cube on my list of movies to watch during the hiatus.

catch you all later

memphish said...

Twinkle said on SOTL: Also it seems like Juliet's hair is speaking to us. (LOL!) Did we see her from the beginning of this season with anything but straight hair on the island? She arrives on the island with her hair naturally wavy (I assume) and then with the Others she made her hair straight. Anyone see anything to contradict that?

Twinkle, the benefits of Othersville includes hamster-powered blow dryers and straight irons clearly. So far since Juliet's been Left Behind she's been curly/wavy. I hope they keep that hair continuity going. Maybe if she goes to The Staff this week she'll take the time to blow dry.

Dennis said...

OK, here's the thing that confuses me about Desmond's recent vision...

In his previous visions, he foresaw an event that was going to happen, but that he didn't "create". For example:

• Locke was going to give a speech
• Lightning struck Charlie's tent, Charlie dies
• Claire went swimming and nearly drowns, Charlie dies
• Claire saw seagulls and wanted to catch them, Charlie dies

Of course in the last three events, Desmond steps in to rescue Charlie. But, we haven't seen any of these visions, so we don't know if he sees anything else after the "Charlie dies" part.

However, in Desmond's latest vision, what was the event that was going to happen? Was it the helicopter crash? If Desmond had not set up the camping trip, would the Losties have heard the helicopter, and sent Jin, Charlie, Hurley, and Desmond to investigate?

I guess what I am getting at is, it seems like the only reason Jin, Charlie, and Hurley went on the camping trip is because Desmond saw it, and coerced them, not because they wanted to on their own. It all seems very contrived. Desmond saves Charlie from the arrow, but he would have never been there in the first place if it wasn't for him. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy - Desmond puts Charlie in a dangerous situation, then lo and behold, he has to save him.

memphish said...

Dennis, you're right, but I'd guess this is the universe's extreme attempt at course correcting since Desmond has foiled it's attempt to kill Charlie over and over. It's the old bait and switch, but the universe is foiled again. This makes Mrs. Hawking's statements in FBYE less reliable hopefully to Desmond as well.

takes a village said...

a pearling we will go...a pearling we will go...
Hi Loco's, The Wife & I have got our 2 Grandsons for the next 3 weeks,so I'll be really busy.
If you happen to turn on the right monitor,you might see me looking back at you. (like Mr.Patchy)
I'll check in when I can.
You Lostologists are the best.
Be seeing you;
Village

Dennis said...

Here's a completely random and obscure Phil Collins / Lost reference:

• Sawyer gets a Phil Collins mix-tape from Bernard
• Phil Collins was in the band Genesis (Ben, Ruth, Naomi, et al were in the book of Genesis)
• The last studio album by Genesis was Calling All Stations (the Pearl, the Flame, the Swan?)
• One song on the album is called Shipwrecked (like Desmond and Rousseau)
• The length of Shipwrecked is 4:23 (the numbers!)

This must mean ... wait for it ... Phil Collins is Jacob!

maven said...

Dennis said: However, in Desmond's latest vision, what was the event that was going to happen? Was it the helicopter crash? If Desmond had not set up the camping trip, would the Losties have heard the helicopter, and sent Jin, Charlie, Hurley, and Desmond to investigate?

Agreed that we have not seen the "puzzle pieces" of Desmond's visions until now. It seems he was trying to recreate the vision as best he could because he believed that Penny was the end result. I believe he was tested (a la Abraham/Isaac) because the final pieces had Charlie with the parachute. Desmond was meant to save Charlie this time...he just didn't realize it yet.

And, Dennis, your Phil Collins connections are awesome! LOL

capcom said...

Right Dennis and Memphish. Who was it, here or on another site, that asked the burning question...why did Desmond have to urge/trick/beg them to go into the jungle with him, if they already were going with him in his future vision anyway?!! Why were they in the jungle in the first place, in his vision? If they were going to go into the jungle anyway, why did he have to ask them to do it specifically to fulfill the vision? Could he not have waited until the actual time that they really went, whenever that was, like in the vision?????? Arg.

I dunno. I so very much enjoy reading all of your comments, theories, and trains of thought because it makes the entire LostTV experience so much more satisfying to find out what you all think about it. And it helps me understand what is going on. But after 3 seasons of this my brain is beginning to shut down, and telling me to just sit back and enjoy the show as TPTB dish it out.

How do they put in in the MST3K theme song? "...If you're wondering how Mike eats and sleeps, and other science facts, you should tell yourself it's just a show, and you should really just relax..." Something like that.

I'm going to keep enjoying all of your theories, and utilize them in my watching experience, but I think that my brain is going on a strike and not thinking up any of its own what-ifs for a while. At least until the summer, when we will have nothing else to do BUT talk and guess and cry about the finale and what Season4 might bring us in 2008! :o)

But seriously, you all here on TLC really enhance the Lost viewing experience beyond what words could express. Expecially for those of us (all of us??) who don't have any immediate family or friends who would put up with this crazy obsession! :-X

maven said...

Capcom: I feel your pain! LOL Just when you think you're beginning to figure things out, they send you for a loop. My brain aches after each episode. Hopefully, all this will eventually make sense...even if it's a totally off-the-wall scenario.

I, too, rush here each day to see what's the theory du jour! Everyone's take on what's going on in the show usually blows me away. You all are so creative (and funny, too)! You usually see things I've missed. Nobody else gets my Lost obsession besides the gang at TLC.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I pretty much agree with Maven's thoughts on Desmond's flashes.
I think what we seen in this episode is the way he always sees his flashes. He has pieces missing and they're may be out of order. We didn't see what he saw the three previous times he saved Charlie. He may have created situations that would help him save Charlie we don't know. I think that's why it was so hard for him this time, he was creating a situation to find Penny not to save Charlie.

BLACK_ROCK said...

WHY is JACK being SO DUMB

I like the theory of juliette coming to the beach to exact revenge on Sun that would be an interesting development.Then Jack would have to kill Juliette.

InEnglandAndLost said...

Morning LoCos...

Just a thought... Wouldn't it be cool for Sawyer to con juliette into telling the losties why she is there. Doubt it would happen though...

Shakey said...

Hi all - first thing in the morning this is gonna be a long one!

Although we can theorise to the ends of the Earth, we can only ever comment on and draw from what we see in the show, which is usually contradictory or just downright confusing, just like poor Desmond - we see pieces of the puzzle but no idea what the picture is. As a result theories don't make sense any more, or new things we see don't fit a pattern.

Up until Catch 22, the only input we had as to what Desmond's vision were and how they work was Desmond himself telling Charlie. It's only in Catch 22 do we get an insight to how things play out in Desmond's head. Seeing that has sent my view on how these flashes work in a different direction:

The universe coure correcting itself isn't about changing an outcome based on events, it's about ensuring that what it wants to happen does happen. As Ms. Hawking said, if she'd warned Red Shoe Guy about the collapsing building, he would've only been hit by a bus later on, or fallen in the shower if the second attempt was thwarted. Not once has the universe said "well, Red Shoe Guy keeps being saved, so I'll go job somebody else instead".

As a result, it was always Naomi in the jumpsuit. Desmond simply misinterpreted what he saw because of his Penny issues, and it was that misinterpretation which caused his Catch 22 situation - the universe was never going to switch Naomi into Penny just because he allows Charlie to die, there's no way it could.

The key thing here is interpretation. In both these example these are events to come to pass if time continues along its current course:

Desmond saw Clare in trouble swimming, Charlie swimming out to try and save her, and then ultimately drowning in the attempt. Nothing else is there to cloud his opinion so he changes the course of events by saving Clare first.

Desmond saw a storm coming, turn into an electrical storm and lightning strike Charlie. Nothing else is there to cloud his opinion so he changes the course of events by erecting a lightning rod take the bolt.

Catch 22 is no different: Desmond sees the happy 4 going along the beach, Hurley finding the cable, Charlie triggering a trap in the jungle getting skewered in the throat. However, this time there IS something to cloud Desmond's opinion and it's the photo of him and Penny with the jumped pilot. The only way Desmond can interpret this is Penny's come to get him because of seeing that photo.

This change of purpose in acting on a vision is what sets up his Catch 22 - because he believes that he has to save Penny, not Charlie, as part of some kind of test, he has to ensure that these events happen as seen. With that he rounds up his camping posse, goes cable-hunting and jungle trekking just as he foresaw. Thing is though he's simply playing out the sequence of events that time has in store anyway - he's not creating anything up until that decision needs to be made - do you intervene in the course of events to save Charlie, or do you let time play itself out? The only reason he hesitates is because he's confused his own purpose for doing this.

So this vision isn't different from any other. He's not created the events in this vision at all we're just seeing the events transpire from Desmond's viewpoint and from his interpretation of what's happening.

And through storytelling this way we get lots of insight into the Desmond character and that big episode shock of "who the HELL is she????"

Told you it was a long one :P

InEnglandAndLost said...

Something has just struck me from your post Shakey.

If Charlie was originally meant to drown saving Claire, then Claire should also be in the death loop.

Lets play it out without desmond for a sec.

Claire is swimming, but for some reason stops and is in trouble. Charlie goes to rescue her, but drowns in his attempt, resulting in both Charlie and Claires death.

Why hasn't anything happened to Claire since Desmond got involved?

BLACK_ROCK said...

the obvious answer to "who the hell is she?" is someone who works for penny connected to the two men seen inseason two finale , however, when is it that simple. Maybe she is a dharma researcher who has been sent to check the condition of dharma initiative stations. this would explain her knowledge of demond but the photo i dunno sorry just insane ramblings.

Perhaps charli saved claire then died
other people have died since desmond started having flashes why does he not see their deaths

Shakey said...

inenglandandlost:

Clare won't be caught in the death loop because she's not intended to die at this time.

Charlie swimming out to save her is first attempt of course correction, which means that the original event intended to kill him was the lightning bolt.

If Desmond hadn't intervened and saved Charlie from the lightning, there would have been no need for the universe to course correct and use Clare as a device to kill Charlie.

Now, would Clare have gone swimming even if Charlie had been electrocuted? Who knows we really can't say, but certainly from the events we have seen, Clare's near-drowning was nothing more than a way of getting Charlie into a terminal situation.

InEnglandAndLost said...

who's to say that The bolt wouldn't've hit Claire too?!

Shakey said...

black_rock:

You raise a good point about why Desmond only sees Charlie's deaths specifically.

Maybe we'll see some tie between them which would explain this atunement, or maybe it's just as simple as Charlie was the next in line to die when Desmond had his first death premonition. Now that Desmond has altered the course of time to save Charlie, he's now committed to work purely along that timeline, which is why all subsequent flashes have also been Charlie's death.

Shakey said...

And on a random note, I ain't selfish - this post is setting up the very next poster hitting post #108!

memphish said...

Joop may be real.

ib4uc said...

Happy Lost Eve everyone. Going to catch up and see if I can put my 2 cents in.

2costa said...

i tend to think charlie is very important to the story. If you reacall in one of his flashback episodes it shows that until the heroin charlie is a goody. I think there was a part where they showed his mom as mother mary and claire as mary magdaline with a dove flying by. Semms to me that desmond has it flipped his test is to see how long and what circumstances he'll keep saving charlie. Some how the others or the island want charlie to be a martyr or a sacrafice. As i mentioned before it may be because he killed Ethan or perhaps because he inoculated himself and hence is immune to something the others want him susceptable to. Someone touched on it earlier that the pic of penny is what desmond misinterpretted, wasnt it just the other day that desmond found his pic again, the others could have scanned it then, I feel that the crash might have been faked and thats how naomi might be a force of annhiliation instead of salvation.

CattyGirl said...

I can honestly say that these non-stop episodes are great, but that my brain can't keep up with them. I never thought a week could go so fast. Between reading theories here and listening to 8 different podcasts, there isn't time for me to come up with my own theories. LOL

It's all good though ;)

Dennis said...

Shakey said... Catch 22 is no different: Desmond sees the happy 4 going along the beach, Hurley finding the cable, Charlie triggering a trap in the jungle getting skewered in the throat. However, this time there IS something to cloud Desmond's opinion and it's the photo of him and Penny with the jumped pilot. The only way Desmond can interpret this is Penny's come to get him because of seeing that photo.
...
So this vision isn't different from any other. He's not created the events in this vision at all we're just seeing the events transpire from Desmond's viewpoint and from his interpretation of what's happening.


Except there might be a difference (we don't know for sure since we haven't seen the other visions). The fact that after charlie get skewered, he then sees him helping with the parachute. These things are mutually exclusive - either Charlie dies, or he lives and helps with the parachute. The only way the Charlie lives, is if Desmond saves him, so if the universe is assuming Desmond will save him, why does he see Charlie die? Unless it's not so much that Charlie is going to die, but here is how you need to save Charlie today...

bigdog said...

memphish - joop lives -

Hillarious. Literally laughed out loud.

Shakey said...

Thanks for the real Joop memphish - and on post 108 too!

CattyGirl said...

Dennis - good point. I've been stuck on the fact that he was seeing both Charlie die and saving the parachute person. Desmond has assignments so to speak.

Twinkle said...

Morning all!

Memphish:

Twinkle said on SOTL: Also it seems like Juliet's hair is speaking to us. (LOL!) Did we see her from the beginning of this season with anything but straight hair on the island? She arrives on the island with her hair naturally wavy (I assume) and then with the Others she made her hair straight. Anyone see anything to contradict that?...

Memphish said: Twinkle, the benefits of Othersville includes hamster-powered blow dryers and straight irons clearly. So far since Juliet's been Left Behind she's been curly/wavy. I hope they keep that hair continuity going. Maybe if she goes to The Staff this week she'll take the time to blow dry.


Thanks for bringing over my comment here. :-) My point was that, logical or not, TPTB could be using Juliet's hair as a symbol for her allegiance. Straight hair and she was aligned with the Others. Wavy hair again represents her return to being disassociated from them, possibly aligning herself with the Losties, but more likely a movement towards regaining her personal freedom. In other words, from now on if we want to know which side Juliet is playing, just watch her hair! (Something so deep from hair! I could totally be talking out my rear! LOL!)

InEnglandAndLost said...

Twinkle, I LOVE this theory. I'm going to live by it until I hear something else that makes sense!!!

memphish said...

Twinkle, you should broaden the theory to include the men's facial hair as well. Once Charlie is clean shaven he will finally die or something like that. :)

Twinkle said...

Thanks! Whatcha wanna bet that there will be some upcoming crisis with the Others when Juliet's allegiance will be wavering. It will rain and her hair will go straight. Then gradually it will dry and go wavy again as she ends up pulling through for the Losties (but really she's only looking out for herself).

I'm having way too much fun with this idea.

Twinkle said...

Love the Charlie addition! LOL! Desmond's clean mug in the last ep really threw me at first! Do you think TPTB really pay enough attention to purposefully symbolically represent something with a character's hair in this case?

memphish said...

Twinkle said Do you think TPTB really pay enough attention to purposefully symbolically represent something with a character's hair in this case? No, but I think they love the idea that we think they might.

Amused2bHere said...

So...if Jack shaves and wears his red shirt...is he doomed?

LOL

memphish said...

Well, amused2behere, Jack was relatively well-shaven and wearing a reddish-purplish shirt when Sarah dumped him, so yes, I think clean shaven and a red shirt = death. ;)

FYSB said...

Now you've got me thinking...did Libby and Ana Lucia and Shannon die because they made unforgivable fashion choices? Ladies of Lost, it's not consorting with fellas that will get you killed, it's your white shoes after Labor Day!

Amused2bHere said...

LOL Memphish.

And thanks for the real life Joop moment. I wonder what vitamins Cheeta takes: Hanso or Widmore?

maven said...

Morning Gang!

Twinkle/Memphish/Amused2bhere: You guys are a riot! Now we have a whole other level to watch for to look for clues! I guess Juliet's motives have something to do whether or not she's having a bad hair day!

Amused2bHere said...

LOL so fysb, what they really need in a rescue team is the What Not to Wear crew?


I wonder what the While You Were Out team could do with the barracks compound?

memphish said...

That's right Maven. It's just like at my house, if I'm having a bad hair day, watch out.

And now that you mention it FYSB, I bet Ana died because she never changed her clothes. She must have really stunk.

Amused2bHere said...

Maven: hmm, I know my behavior is affected by a bad hair day...

LOL

Amused2bHere said...

and come to think of it...isn't Claire's hair getting curly lately?

I think Sun is the only one safe, her hair probably wouldn't curl if she set it with curlers!

memphish said...

Sun would need flashback hair of doom to get curls.

maven said...

Well, I have naturally curly hair...but even the humidity on that island would give me the frizzes! LOL

FYSB said...

LOL...flashback hair of doom. That's funny.

Codysmom said...

Hello, everybody!

LOL, hair of doom...

When Hurley's hair goes straight, we're all in trouble!!

Codysmom said...

Like your new avi, amused... loved that scene!

memphish said...

Codysmom, do you mean your Hurley or on the Island Hurley? What if on the Island Hurley is like the Lion in the Wizard of Oz and gets that frou frou hairdo he got in the Emerald City once the Losties finally find the Salon Hatch.

Codysmom said...

Hey, memphish! I guess I'm talking about the Island Hurley! LOL, salon hatch!!

My Hurley is a digging (like Nicki), happy (like Hurley), beggar (like Sawyer?)

Codysmom said...

capcom, where are you? Your brain doesn't have to bleed today... we're just talking hair styles!!!

memphish said...

I think Capcom has been blogging responsibly lately, i.e. not during work hours. Since I'm a SAHM, there are no off hours, so I blog at will.

ib4uc said...

You guy's crack me up!

If anyone's interested, there's a new Kristen, posted yesterday.

Codysmom said...

Looks like previous discussions were about Desmond saving Charlie. The thing I'm thinking is his visions of Charlie dying are because he saw Charlie in his "trip" back in time and that changed things.

I read on another blog someone mentioned that Des has now saved charlie from the earth (rock with bird), fire (lightning), water (drowning), and now the arrow (wind?) so maybe all the elements have been satisfied and it will stop. Not sure about the arrow being wind....

thanks for head's up on new Kristen article, ib4uc... Is it really spoilery?

Melissa_Lossa said...

I'm proudly blogging at work, just to stick it to the man. Ha!

Just catching up on these theories about Desmond's flashbacks, and I have a question - are his flashes always this jumbled? It doesn't seem so. Des is usually very delibrate in his actions. He sets up the lightning rod, and even knows the exact time that lightning will strike (he tells Hurley to stick around). He sprints from the jungle to the beach because he knows that his vision is about to happen at that moment. He interrupts Charlie's picnic to ask him to go hunting, knowing that Claire's about to have her brainstorm.

In all of these instances, he knows the exact moment that the event will happen, but in Catch 22, he's not even sure what order the pieces go in. So what's different this time?

memphish said...

I think the only thing that's different this time is Desmond's belief that the flash of the picture means that Penny's arrival on-Island is imminent. I'm not sure why he thinks that saving Charlie changes anything other than Charlie being saved. It's never changed other things before, at least that we've seen.

Melissa_Lossa said...

codysmom - do NOT read Kristen. There is something major in there, that I kind of wish I didn't know. Eek!

BTW - did you have a beautiful weekend on the east side? It was so nice here!

Melissa_Lossa said...

memphish - help me out - was there something in his vision that assured him that it wasn't his own copy of the photo that he saw? Was there something that definitively tied it to parachute girl?

ib4uc said...

melissa_lossa... you beat me to the punch! Yes, Kristen is spoilery. Read at your own risk.

And, yes, the weather here in Cincy this past weekend was wonderful. Sunny and in the 70's -- I could handle that all year long.

memphish said...

Melissa, the fact that the photo isn't wrinkled maybe?

martysbaybay said...

Like Melissa_Lossa said huge spoiler.......Dang it!... no way to delete that one out of my head

Melissa_Lossa said...

oh, that could be, memphish - makes sense


I know, martysbaybay - I wish I'd never seen it! Grrrr.....

Amused2bHere said...

Ya know what's funny? My older son calls me a "Lost Loser" and teases me about my involvement here. But when we sit down to watch Lost, he always asks me who's flashbacks we will be seeing, what's the name of the episode, etc...

He got real mad last week when I didn't have many answers for him 'cause I was mostly spoiler free. LOL

Amused2bHere said...

hey Memphish, did we ever figure out where we've all seen the Hula doll before? Seems soooo familiar, but no one has been able to pinpoint from where...

memphish said...

I heard it was on Hurley's hummer dashboard, but I have not confirmed.

Codysmom said...

Thanks for the Kristen spoiler warnings!! Not going to go there..

Melissa, yes the weather this past weekend was PERFECT!! Wish it was like that all the time..

Melissa_Lossa said...

I hear ya, codysmom. It was perfect!! My husband and I bought a house in January, so we're enjoying working in our yard for the first time. :)

Sayid'sgirl said...

Hey LoCos
Is the spoiler info on the up coming episode or one in the future? Just wondering when it would be safe to read it.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Sayid's Girl - I believe it is for the next episode. The other stuff in the article is pretty generic, and no big deal, in my opinion.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Ok thanks melissa_lossa
I'll look at it after the show.

Codysmom said...

Melissa, congrats on your new house (and yard)! Yard work is definitely most fun in spring..

Wayyy OT, but as I was going to re-watch catch-22, I had the last part of one-of-us and noticed something I hadn't noticed before. Right after you see Ben and Juliet talking about their plan for Juliet to be on the beach, Ben leaves the room in his wheelchair after he says, "See you in a week". Juliet hesitates before picking up the gas mask and I see her mouthing something or mumbling under her breath. Has anybody seen anything on this?

FYSB said...

codysmom, i believe she said "how the heck am i supposed to maintain evil curls with this dang gas mask on? and those stupid beach dwellers used up all the dharma white rain hairspray on their anti-polar bear weapons! curse you ben!"

or something to that effect.

Melissa_Lossa said...

thanks, codysmom!

And, I'm out! Namaste. ;)

memphish said...

Maybe Juliet mumbled, "I'll get you my pretty and your giant hamsters too."

Codysmom said...

LOL, fysb & memphish!!

Twinkle said...

Dude! Memphish! Salon hatch! LSHNEMB

BTW, I'm halfway serious about watching Juliet's hair. Straight = doing what the Others want. Curly = fighting for herself or our Losties. Otherwise why change her hair at all? First we felt animosity towards her with straight hair. Then we felt sorry for Juliet in her flashbacks with the wavy hair. Now she's back to wavy. You never know when TPTB will pull something subtle like that, although as Memphish pointed out, they probably love that we think they might.

So when would a week be up? How long did it take them to get back to camp and now they've been there for a day? More?

ib4uc said...

twinkle... when Ben tells Juliet that he'll see her in a week, my first thought that when that week came, it was going to be the finale.

Dennis said...

memphish said... Codysmom, do you mean your Hurley or on the Island Hurley? What if on the Island Hurley is like the Lion in the Wizard of Oz and gets that frou frou hairdo he got in the Emerald City once the Losties finally find the Salon Hatch.

Here's your Salon Hatch logo :)

capcom said...

Hi Favorite Peeps,

Just catching up here right now, I had to spend the day getting my new TN drivers license today.

But to answer a Q, I'm retired so I can blog allllllllll day long if I want! :o)

Gonna catch up with you guys now!

memphish said...

Thanks Dennis. I love it!

Twinkle said...

Dennis/Memphish: That logo is a scream!

ib4uc: Boy am I dense! Of course it's the finale (or thereabouts)!

Way to flaunt your freedom, Capcom! LOL!

capcom said...

OK, caught up for the day now. Thanks for the warning on the Kirstin article! Did she give away something that she promised that she wouldn't, when she went to visit Lostland last week? For shame!

Great salon logo Dennis! In fact I don't understand why the DI didn't have a nice spa hatch, to unwind after a long day's working on the science experiments. Speaking from experience, you can get kind of sweaty in those nylon lab coats, and hunching over microscopes for long periods of time does a nubmer on your neck muscles!

And speaking of Juliet's appearance, I can't believe that she and Kate didn't stop to take a shower first, after their mud wrestling, before they left Otherton to go back to the camp. I mean really. So, there sits Jules beside Hurley, all caked with dry mud. I mean they've given us shower scenes before with less provocation!! :-p Hmmm, I seem to be a bit snarky today! :o)

BTW, I tend to agree with those who mention that perhaps Dez might not be interpreting his own visions correctly, or at least on how he is supposed to react to them. He is kind of new to the precog business and all. So what he does with them, might be wrong, and a way for TPTB to throw us off. Just thinkin', and probably wrong.

Twinkle said...

Capcom said: I can't believe that she and Kate didn't stop to take a shower first, after their mud wrestling, before they left Otherton to go back to the camp. I mean really.

Me too!!! A whole camp all to themselves, loads of valuable things including soap and showers, and they just left?

scoutpost said...

Wow you guys have been on a roll today! Too funny. LOVE the salon logo. And put me in the category that was bothered by the fact that Kate and Jules didn't clean up in Otherton. I mean I get tired of watching dirty, ragged, wet, muddy- you name it- people walking around all the time, and yet I know they have to- but come on, when they get a chance at a shower and don't take it! That is almost a jump the shark moment right there! LOL

scoutpost said...

Another thing (different topic)- there may be hope out there for all our casual LOST fans. I've mentioned before the group of friends I have that call themselves fans and yet barely know all the character's names...well last week we were discussing some LOST things and one friend asked if I went online and read blogs, etc. Of course I said yes, but that was about it. Talked to her last night and she said she had been online at several sites (namely the Fuselage) reading all stuff LOST. She couldn't believe how addicted she had gotten in just a week. So there is hope for them....welcome to the dark side. hehe

LostIt said...

I thought in Desmonds flashes that when the woman fell, she had blonde hair. that and the picture are what made him think it would be Penny. Thus the test. Sacrifice the thing you want most in the entire world to save Charlie or let him die. He chose the sacrifice and I think the fact that Charlie was there with the parachute in the vision may have been a production mistake (to save on having to shoot the scene twice).

NEver mind cleaning up. Why haven't the losties gone to othersville to take over? As far as they (And we) know the others have left the compound and noone is using those comfy houses. The only thing I can think of is that they are afraid of what the Others might have done to booby trap the place.

capcom said...

Hmm, good point Lostit. Now that you mention it, if I was a Lostie, I would wonder if the Others would vaseline the toilet seats, or put itching powder in the sheets and towels, or choco-laxatives in the chocolate chip cookies, etc.! :o)

Amused2bHere said...

Capcom and all: I agree, but I would be willing to brave all the booby traps for a nice hot shower and shampoo, not to mention a shave, grab all the deodorant, soap, toothbrushes I could carry, maybe a teakettle or at least a frypan.

Darn the vaseline and exlax! I dare them! Hot shower, here I come

Amused2bHere said...

What if the Losties are still trying to figure out what made the Others bug out of New Otherton? It can't be just because Sayid/Kate/Locke found them--maybe it's because something else is about to happen, something bad...

or maybe it's the Other equivalent of the festival of Succoth, the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles (when the whole nation is supposed to dwell in tents for a week.) After all, I wouldn't be surprised at another Biblical reference at this point.

But I agree, I'd already be talking to the camp about the facilities just a day's walk away! Way better than the "rape caves" Shannon worried about.

memphish said...

Happy LOST Day!

Here's you link to Doc Jensen. I have not read any of it. He's spoiled me the last 2 weeks and I'm not risking it.

As for the potential move to the Barracks. I suppose they might have discussed it before Claire got ill and the medicine she needed was near the beach, so no action was taken during "One of Us." Logistically it would be hard to move 40 people of various athletic capabilities through that jungle. They ought to at least mention it though. Maybe they will tonight when trying to help Sun.

It's always been part of my Juliet is a plant notion that part of her mission is to keep the LOSTies from making such a move. It's hard to believe that Ben would allow the LOSTies to take over his "home." Tom wasn't happy about Locke putting his feet up on the furniture back in "The Hunting Party" after all.

The idea about the Feast of Tabernacles is a good given one of the shots in the promo. It would also fit in with the Others OT/Eastern combining of religious practices.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Good Morning LoCos
Can't wait to find out who Sun's baby's daddy is. I hope it's Jin's.
Thanks for the Doc Jensen link Memphish. I think I'll chance it, maybe. :)

ib4uc said...

memphish... thanks for the Jensen link. I broke down and read it. It's kinda spoilery.

sayid'sgirl... I want to know who the daddy is also. Either way, I think Sun is screwed.

memphish said...

So Heroes pulled a LOST in the ratings this week. It seems the only shows doing well in the ratings are those that are live like AI and DWTS. You can't record and keep them to watch later in the week because you'll know the results before you see the audition segments. The other shows that seem to do well are on CBS which is notoriously the old-people's network (no offense intended to the LoCos of a certain age around here, myself included). An argument might be made that their viewers don't know how to use TiVo. I know my mom can't operate her VCR without using the instructions my sister wrote out for her 20 years ago.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I'm not so sure whether it's that they can't tivo or use a vcr as much as it is that they like the style of story telling CBS's programing has. Also older people probably don't need to tivo or use a vcr because they have the time to watch a program when it's on.
Oh and I know that your comments were some what tongue in cheek memphish.

Sayid'sgirl said...

BTW Did Dancing with the Stars have an extended show Monday night? The article said it beat Heros head to head at 9:00 but Dancing comes on at 8:00.

Codysmom said...

Happy Lost Day, everybody!!!

Oh, I know what you're talking about, memphish! You should have seen the way I had color-coded tape and instructions written out for my Mom to use the vcr, and she still couldn't do it! Even funnier was the way I had padded and duct-taped the tv remote so my Dad couldn't push a button that would screw everything up (and, of course, not know how to un-do what he did).

Shakey said...

For all of you guys n gals who enjoyed TLE and also like talking about backstories and possible character histories, I would strongly recommend you read the last part of Doc Jensen's article for his idea and pilot treatment of his "Real Henry Gale" spin-off show - it's ace!

To avoid glancing at anything you don't want to, his treatment at the very bottom of the article so just fire down to the bottom and scroll up...slowly :P

Codysmom said...

memphis said...
It's hard to believe that Ben would allow the LOSTies to take over his "home."

Unless, he's following Locke's advise to stop "cheating" with all his conveniences and get back to being closer to the island! Maybe this is incorrect, but I thought Overville was originally Dharma barracks and not the Other's original "home".

Codysmom said...

will check it out, shakey..

scoutpost said...

Morning everyone- Happy LOST day!

Thanks for the Doc Jensen head's up. Guess I'll wait til after the epi to read it. I read the part you were talking about shakey. I was really getting into the story and then he ended it. I would watch it...if it weren't just a figment of Doc's imagination.
Speaking of TLE- it's been almost a year since we started. I really wish TPTB would announce something for the 6 month break- if not an ARG then something to occupy our time. I dread waiting that long with nothing. Guess I'll have to start watching previous seasons of 24, and catch up on Heroes.

maven said...

Another Happy Lost Day! (Sadly, only a few of them left)

Re the discussion of why the Losties didn't check-in at Motel Otherville: It might be that they do fear the place is booby-trapped, but that doesn't explain why they didn't take anything of value (just for hygiene purposes alone)! If I knew there was a complete town full of modern conveniences just a day's walk away, I would head on over and check it out and get the sand out of my shorts! Those Losties must really like the beach life...they ddn't even fully take advantage of the Swan (didn't we only see Kate take a shower?).

Sayid's girl: I'm not so sure whether it's that they can't tivo or use a vcr as much as it is that they like the style of story telling CBS's programing has.
I think a certain group of tv viewers don't like serial-type shows that require a continuous investment of time and energy. Some viewers like their stories wrapped up within an hour.

Love the stories re our parent's technological deficiencies! LOL I have so many fond memories of my Dad (who, as a television comedy writer, still used a manual typewriter all his life!) and my mother trying to record on the VCR. No matter how many time you tell them, it's just too much for them!

Shakey said...

scoutpost:

I have Battlestar Galactica season 3 to watch and to make a start on Heroes to keep me going until Lost 4.

Although TLE was great fun it did eat up too much of my life, and (I think we'll all concur here) to have so much investment in it only to get the abruptly terminated, wishy-washy ending we had was very disappointing.

Out of the entire Lost universe, is Rachel Blake the only person who does NOT have Daddy issues?

capcom said...

I agree Amused, I would still try to check out if there was anything usable.

Heh-heh, I forgot about Shannon's rape-caves! :o) She was such a tool.

And very interesting observation about the Feast of Tabernacles!

Good points also Memphish about why certain Losties couldn't or wouldn't trek to Otherton. But, you'd think that there might be a few bull-headed Losties (like our dearly, recently-deceased, Pikki) who might say the heck with it and charge right over to take advantage of the, well, advantages.

Another trick the Others could pull, is putting dye in the showerheads. That's been done on enough TV shows and movies. :o)

memphish said...

With only 6 more hours of LOST in 2007 (not counting recap shows), what's the one question you really hope gets answered before then?

Mine, how Ben can view himself as one of the good guys?

Final technology story. The day after I gave birth, my dad calls me at the hospital from my house so I can tell him which buttons to push to get the TV back on and tuned to the British Open. We had the complicating factor of a cable box and he kept turning it on and the TV off and vice versa.

capcom said...

Interesting comment about TLE Shakey, I agree. A lot. As hard up as I am going to be during the summer, fall, and half of winter without Lost, I think that my participation in a TLE-2 would be mostly observational. That is, I would let everyone else do the footwork, and then I'd just follow it via what they found. The end was way too disappointing and had no real payoff for the time invested, like you said. And by real payoff, I mean that the ending was totally disproportional to the intensity of the body of the game. Or at least the first 2/3 of it anyway.

Sure, now that we know so much about the Losties father issues, we can see now that of course that would be a theme in the TLE as well. Funny.

Good for your dad for using a manual tyepwriter, Maven! I love those things.

Codysmom said...

Maven, what show did your dad write for?

I tried giving a manual typewriter to the Salvation Army and they didn't want it. Then I tried to sell it at my garage sale and nobody wanted it. I think it's still in my garage. If I wait long enough, I can give it to a museum:)

The question I most want answered at the end of this season: Who (or what) is Jacob?

capcom said...

One mystery question only Memphish? Well, I would like to know if Boone's mother is an Other.

Just kiddin! :o) I'll have to think about this one for a while. So many Qs that concerned me before (like about the Swan station and other season 2 issues) have been blown out of the water by everything that is happening this season. But I think that my question might still have something to do with the blast door map. That map covers a lot of area in questions, so maybe that's cheating tho.

I'm curious to see what is the one burning issue with everyone else after S-3 has happened as well!

capcom said...

Codysmom, I saw in a magazine about antiques or fleamarkets, where someone put an old (really old! The big black metal kind) typewriter on an old office table with a bunch of other antique office things from the same period, in their den/office. It looked very nice. But if your typewriter is one of the modern plastic ones, keep trying before chucking it out. There is a growing interest for mechanical things from the 50s-70s. People think that they are kitschy-cute.

Amused2bHere said...

Happy Lost Day!

It's too bad we can't make up our own TLE2 or some such.

Regional parties with a live chat?

I am glad that Passafist and the Goog are planning a Seasons 1-2 review over the long hiatus.

And Monk & Psych are new starting in July. Maybe the 4400 will be back too? Or Dr. Who? I can hope.

Amused2bHere said...

Speaking of the technology challenged older gens: I had one of those moments myself recently. I picked up my son's iPod and couldn't figure out how to turn it off. I was SO embarrassed to ask him how to work it. He just snickered at me.

I hate iPods.

ib4uc said...

The one (of many) questions that I would like to know is: who is the Henry Gale that was buried?

Sayid'sgirl said...

amused2bhere
I'm thankful that I have a son who know more about technology than I do. I'm always asking him things and thankfully he doesn't snicker at me but if he did I wouldn't mind because I'm usually laughing at myself when I find out how simple it is. I'm alway telling my kids I'd be lost with out them.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I think my one mystery from this season would be who Ben really is and what really happened during the purge.

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