After six seasons, this is it. There is no description for tonight's finale, but I don't think there needs to be.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, to all of you. You are an amazing group of people. This blog started in other, perhaps more capable hands, but I have been honored to take you through the last couple of seasons.
Thank you to David and Steve for your phenomenal podcast, and thank you to the crew over at LostArgs, especially Zort/Ian, for being such an incredible sister site.
Tonight, Lost comes to an end. However, I know that this will not be the end of this community, or of the friendships hatched from it. We have been a part of each others lives - some for a few months, and some for years. As with the Losties, we have seen births and deaths, life changes and simple pleasures. We have shared more than a television show - we have shared our lives.
The Lost Community will live on. I know it. In the meantime, Peace and Namaste.
- Melissa
Sunday, May 23, 2010
The End - Series Finale
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Walt!? wasnt he special? did he never die? we never really saw much of him
I thought Walt was supposed to be in the finale. Now that we've seen the finale, it makes sense that we didn't.
Are Ana-Lucia, Eloise, Daniel and Charlotte some kind of 'virtual' contructs created by the lostaways? So their beings are not really there and that's why they aren't ready?
Because if there is "no now here" how can you say they're "not ready"? If people that we saw die like Shannon, Sayid etc can hang around in the flash sideways until everybody else dies and is able to accept that, why can't they "wait" until Ana-Lucia is ready too? Time is meaningless once you're dead.
The strongest, emotional and most meaningful relationships we create in life are the ones that will help us accept our own death.
So are you all part of my flash-sideways?
Are we in it now?
Cosmically Yours
P.S. Meet at the Lamp Post
Amy Lynn, you're right about Jughead. Exploding it definitely did not change the 'future' and prevent the plane crash. However, it did bring the lostaways back to 2007 from 1977.
I think it's interesting that Locke created a world in which he not only had a good relationship with his father, but that his father was suffering and trapped - and John Locke caused it. An odd kind of retribution for what happened in real life? Is his father's 'spirit' also in the flash-sideways (as I continue to call them), or is he just a character pulled from John's memory? It will be interesting to re-examine the entire flash sideways knowing that they are self-created - if I understood that correctly.
Cosmically Yours
Just finished...WOW...I thought it was just perfect...still crying. Will try to catch up later. Gonna watch Kimmel now.
Love to you all!
Finished watching and then had to dash for the car to go to work.
All I can say at the moment is I Love you all and if I die I will seek you all out and make you remember what we shared here.
Reading the comments I too noticed the Prisoner references, including Sawyer's "Be Seeing You".
Remember - "Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself"
Black Swan -- you asked about Walt. On the Jimmy Kimmel Q & A Session which you can see on Hulu, Jimmy says that's the part that will be on the DVDs. I can't recommend watching that segment. It was super lame.
What do we think : LOST II - The Hurley Years ?
Morning, Exceptional fianle.
had cry out loud moments - Jin/ Sun - Sawyer/Juliet - Charlie/Claire and even eloise and desmond
Laugh out loud - the jack jump punch, hurley shooting charlie, All the target commercials
TLC moments - purgatory -Chuckelz
I dont know if like jack i will be able to let go and move on so easily but i will say it again. Thanks for letting me ride along in the dharma love bus.
Ok, I've had some time to calm my emotions and think.
I loved the episode, it ended things nicely and pushed the right emotional buttons. I'm happy and serene for the moment.
However I almost feel like I'm going behind Damon and Carlton's back but I do have burning questions that will forever be annoying if they are not answered in some way.
Waaaaaaallllttttt.
The Egyptian connection.
Widmores story.
and the most burning question I have -
Who shot at them in the outrigger time travel scene.
Plus anything else that fills in some of the DHARMA mysteries wouldn't go amiss.
Sorry, one more thing for now -
I do feel that there is something missing, a small chunk of the story that needs addressing at some point. Maybe a bit more expansion on the struggle / manouvering that went on between Jacob and MIB to get to the final result.
I could see a movie being made that does just that, pulling together those sorts of elements.
But for now I'm happy with things as they are and can rest easy for the time being, the style was beautiful, and exceptional at times. The show runners connected with an audience like nothing I've ever seen before, both on and off screen, and the fan community that sprouted from this almost transcends anything that went out on screen.
Just read this and had to share, maybe the cork in the light was the statue's fifth toe :-)
Im in on the Hurley years.
i liked how they left it open that hurley and ben were island protectors for quite a while probably. Making the sideways be purgatory or limbo was a good idea because there was no way to jive it with the other timeline. It would have also cheapened the island events. They made it a lot like the karass concept from cat's cradle. The karass is a group of people that have to work together for a purpose, but you can be in more than one karass at a time. Richard wasn't in the church because his personal heaven is with isabella. To isabella they were already together because she was in her heaven place. The widmore's had their own heaven group. It's interesting that ben didn't go in because his heaven may be with alex and danielle. I assume mike and walt have their own heaven.
i think they also left what happened to smokey when mib was killed open. I assume the smoke rejoined the light. In a weird way mib got what he wanted too. He just wanted to leave or die.
it also remineded me of the supernatural where they saw that their were billions of personal heavens. Also the south park where all the recently dead celebrities like billy may's were trapped in purgatory on a plane because micheal jackson didn't wanna let go, so he was holding up the old group.
Sayid and locke were punishing themselves in purgatory,"we are the causes of our own misery".
just like i read the star wars books about the twins and luke's jedi academy, i would read books depicting ben and hurley guarding the island. Their reign could have been 2000 years for all we know.
@2costa
Sayid and locke were punishing themselves in purgatory,"we are the causes of our own misery"
I LOVE that. Thank you.
I know Darlton says that they think they tied things up pretty well, with no room for "to be continued", but I would like to see the adventures of Richard Alpert in 2010 America, please!
A very good final chapter. I'm still digesting it, hours later.
Amy Lynn - I had exactly the same thoughts about Richard too :)
Zort - love the plug being the fifth toe idea!
i think the moment mib floated into the light. the light dimmed because he intended on having people build all the water system that appeared in the light cave in 2007. When mib showed his mother the donkey wheel the water component hadn't been built yet and the water is what cuased it to be a frozen donkey wheel. So just like building the orchid had its causalities, building the light well had to have some people die working on it. So when mib went in there the light dimmed because the tunnels and water system were in place retroactively. Just like jack couldn't recharge the light until the water was back. It could also be that the ancients had already built the well.
was vincent dead at the end?
i think christain was really christain when he talked to vincent and jack during o6 time.
i took it as when the light went out the smoke left locke's body and he was just a man.
i also think that jacob and hurley used a loophole to have their helper not age. Jacob annointed richard as his replacememnt, knowing full well he would never take the reigns. It's not set in stone he new he could annoint another later. I assume Hugo did that with ben too.
Did anyone notice the donkey wheel picture in the church's stained glass window?
Screen capture of the symbols in the church
I'm fairly sure it is a normal wagon wheel not a donkey wheel, but could be mistaken.
Given that the other five symbols are religious, I think the wheel might be, too?
I can't hang out too long. I'm at work. But OMG. I was so blown away by the finale, I'm still crying (Trying not to since I'm at work, but my eyes keep welling up every time I think about it).
Didn't "we" (i.e., Lostpedia) find that the wagonwheel-like image is a spiritual symbol of 'something' after the FDW appeared?
As to the Purgatory thing, Netprophet over at Eye M Sick has had a good way of looking at the FS for a while, and it makes more sense to me within the show now that we've seen the end. He thinks it's more like the Autralian Aboriginal "Dreamtime" belief which in Wiki is defined as such: "Aboriginals believe in two forms of time; two parallel streams of activity. One is the daily objective activity, the other is an infinite spiritual cycle called the 'dreamtime', more real than reality itself. Whatever happens in the dreamtime establishes the values, symbols, and laws of Aboriginal society. It was believed that some people of unusual spiritual powers had contact with the dreamtime."
That last line sounds a lot like Desmond too.
Capcom, that also fits in (just) with Lockes sweat lodge vision. He may have seen the vision in a limnited version of the FS.
Oh yes, neat!
The Dreamtime scenario seems especially pertinent in light of the, "Australia is the key to everything" line.
Why didn't Mr. Eko come back?
It's one of the most asked questions about Lost's final season. After all, everyone else returned! So what gives?
Sources tell me exclusively:
Lost's Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje--who played the iconic Mr. Eko--was offered a guest spot in last night's Lost series finale, but he...wait for it...turned it down.
According to ABC and Lost insiders, Adewale was offered a hearty sum to do one scene in the last hurrah, but the actor wanted five times the amount that was offered. It didn't work out.
How and where would Adewale have popped up in the finale? I guess we'll never know, but he was definitely loved by many fans before his character's demise.
Eko (a warlord who pretended to be a priest in order to smuggle drugs) was the fifth character to die on Lost, after facing the Smoke Monster for a second time and getting attacked, and then telling Locke, "I saw the devil."
Producers have said their original plan was for Mr. Eko to stay on the show four seasons, but they released Adewale from his contract after only one season because he wanted off the Island.
Leggo my Eko!
Would you have liked to see Adewale/Eko in the finale, or did it feel just fine without him? Comment below...
Source: E!Online
Well, that's a sad and disappointing story about AAA asking for too much money if true. Gee, let me think this out....good money for doing a little work on a nice island, versus, no money for doing no work. Difficult choice...not.
It would have been great to see Eko for four more seasons, and/or in the finale in some capacity. But I guess that we already saw him reunited with his brother in the afterlife when he died, so I wonder what they would have said about his character's FS progress?
After re-watch, I understand the last part better,and I loved it even more.Also more manly tears.
Lost should get the Emmy for this one.
That was the most profound, poetic thing I have ever seen on TV.
But I don't think the experience would have been the same if I hadn't seen it - all six seasons - in community with all of you.
The community aspect of it is what is sticking with me right now. I think that experiencing it in community allowed us to share the journeys of our characters in a more intimate way.
So, OK, why is the island underwater in purgatory?
AL I think it's underwater because they have all moved past it. While their time on the Island was important, it was the relationships not the locale that mattered, so this dreamtime world (or whatever we want to call it) exists in the "real" world where issues other than merely those raised on the Island can be dealt with.
I've got a question for everyone - name the one thing that you wish you could get an answer to. For me I want to know why Island Christian Shephard changed clothes in S4.
On that note, why did Kate change out of her dress to get into Heaven?
I wondered that too AL. Especially given that the outfit she chose was neither flattering nor fit well.
I want to know - if MIB became the smoke monster after going into the cave of light, why didn't that happen to Jack when he was there? Desmond I can understand - he was special and immune to the electromagnetism. But Jack wasn't special. He had already passed on the role of protector to Hurley. Unless maybe there were 2 protectors until he died and his role is what protected him?
@LostIt, bad writing?
wow. That was one amazing evening.
I echo everyone's comments. LOST would not have been the experience it was without this Community. Thank you to all who came alongside to walk this path together. It was, after all, all about the Journey.
Favorite scene: Sawyer and Juliet at the vending machine. YES!!!
I'm glad they didn't go for the traditional Purgatory, but more like the Dreamtime concept. I can swallow that more than purgatory or limbo.
I am happy that Ben stayed to "work on some things", and that he and Hugo had more stories than what we saw. And that Jack finally had resolution with his dad. I think that was possible because he had already worked stuff out with David.
So much went into that finale, and I really appreciate the attention to detail. Thank you to the whole cast who did show up in the end, even for just a cameo.
Emmy! Emmy! Emmy! please?
The island being underwater in the FS was more symbolic I think, just that it didn't matter in that reality.
Memphish, I would like to know (apart from the outrigger question) what happened between Ben and Widmore when Widmore was forced off the island.
@Memphish, I guess I would want to know what Jacob told Widmore, and what Widmore whispered to Flocke.
Apparently, Darlton's radio silence only lasted about 12 hours. They've agreed to take questions on the finale from Lostpedia members!
I don't have any questions I want answered. I'm still digesting the episode.
I didn't like the FS from the start. Then they introduced Desomnd into it which gave me hope that they would realize that FS wasn't what they needed it was the island.
Which in a way I guess he did. But the fact that the FS was a place they created where they could hang out until all of them could remember their time on the island and each other (why would they forget?) and happily go to heaven together fell a little flat for me.
I don't mind them dying. I don't mind them going to heaven. But spending all season waiting for them to remember seems like a waste to me. I would prefer having a scene like Eko and Jemi and it would have been just as touching. Or for the FS only to take up the last few episodes. Then it would have made more sense. But it is what it is. And now it's over.
I did enjoy it up until the Christian speech. Maybe that's what I didn't like was his explaination. IDK
I have to say I'm glad I didn't feel about the ending the way I did about Across the Sea. As I said last night, I enjoyed it as I watched it, and that was very important to me. The fact that with 20 minutes to go I was still "huh?" was fun. But having said that.
As for how I feel about the series as a whole, the series pulled back one layer too far for me. Using Jacob and MIB as the final layer that set everything in motion was, for me, a story that failed to hit. It didn't integrate with what we had seen in the earlier seasons in a satisfying way, especially the temple stuff. The connection or rather the mostly lack of a connection between Jacob, MIB and The Others fell far short for me. I would have been more satisfied with an ultimate showdown between Widmore and Ben with Jacob and Smokey being more neutral mediators. And while I am satisfied with the "happy" endings shown in the Sideways world I could have lived without that too.
I respect that the creators absolutely have the right to tell the story they want to tell, and they did, but I also assert the right to like or not like what they choose to do. And for me, personally, S6 overall failed to connect with me on an emotional and intellectual level that was as satisfying as the previous 5 seasons.
Agreed that it was great until Christian's speech. It's like the show was SO close to sticking the landing, and then forgot to put the wheels down.
I still was hoping that Ben didn't really kill Widmore.. that they were somehow working together against MIB....
i would like to know why the babies were dying. looking back i see very little point for that story line except it got Juliet to the island.
Also was there really a magic box
I like to think that Juliet's banging the bomb caused the electromagnetism on the Island to go even crazier creating the pregnancy problem thus ultimately bringing her to the Island. I don't have anything to back that up. I just like to think it. :-)
Yes, I do think that was a bit of irony, that Juliet caused the problem she was hired to solve, and was so devastated when she couldn't do so.
Although having seen Across the Sea, I did have a moment where I thought Jacob might have caused the problem later on, when he knew the end was near, so that the same scenario that caused him and his brother to act like they did could not be repeated.
Hmmmm.........sounds very familiar.
They're all dead and have to atone for something in their lives. They have to basically choose between damnation and salvation.
Pretty sure I said that back when EKO DIED!!
Peace, love and purgatory!!
One more question I might have for D&C if I could ask is where there multiple iterations of the time line that we didn't see.
I always got the impression that events had played out before, or that more time travel was involved at some point.
I have to assume that the donkey wheel was used at least once, before DHARMA arrived and tried to experiment with it.
Don't misunderstand I'm satisfied with the story we got, I just think there is so much more implied along the way that we could be shown.
Is that you Chucklez ?
PL&P to you too !!
Feel like Jack. You guys had no faith in me.
Yeah, where are you all now? Bwaaahahahahahaha!!!
Sorry, DedJezter asked where I was to "rub it in".
Won't be here long. This isn't my thing anymore, to chat.
However, just thought I'd come to gloat just a bit before I sign off forever and...........
"MOVE ON".....
Peace, love and purgatory.
by the way, yes. 'Tis I.
peace, love and purgatory
and to the liars.....errrr, ummm.....producers.....do I win anything???
peace, love and purgatory
@Daniel, I would argue not that you were right, but that you GAVE them the idea.
I will so miss this show...Thanks for this blog, and letting me create and hook the TLC message board onto it.
if I GAVE them the idea, where's my CUT???
Send me a t-shirt or my personal copy of the script or something!
They could've at least had a "special thanks" in there somewhere!!
peace, love and purgatory
Chucklez
Hi glad you stopped by to gloat. A few of were think of you last night. Hope things are well with you.
A few of "us"...As you can see my typing skills haven't improved over the years. ;)
Hey, Daniel, I just knew you'd be here with all this purgatory stuff! Hope life is treating you well.
I want to stress that I absolutely was moved by and loved the ending. But, naturally, there are many loose ends out there. If everyone in the Church had died on 815, then why was Penny there? She had never actually been on the island. Would the answer be that those at the Church all "died" at different times and different circumstances and were there because they were important to Jack. It was his "letting go" that we were experiencing? And I still don't seem to understand how all the Jacob/MIB stuff fit into the ending. And when exactly did Flocke become Locke again and was therefore mortal?
@maven... The church didn't have anything to do with anyone who died on 815
Hey, Daniel, I just knew you'd show up with all this purgatory talk. Hope life is treating you well.
I personally loved and was moved by the finale. But, it wouldn't be LOST, if there are many loose ends and many interpretations, and many questions to discuss. I, too, am confused by some things. I want to know why Penny was in the Church. She never was on the island. Was it because all the people that were important to Jack had died in different years and were there because it was from his point-of-view since he had just "let it go"? And I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the whole meaning of the Jacob/MIB story. Did Miles, Richard, Frank "live" or did they die, too, but were not important to Jack? Only 815 crash people were the ones important to him (and their significant others)?
Don't get me wrong: I did love the ending, and felt it was perfect. At least we will still be talking about this for a while longer!
So nice to see Chucklez checking in. I texted him earlier, I wonder if he came in because of it. I hope all is well, Dan.
Daniel,Thanks for stopping by.We
know it was your idea all along. Chucklez was our Hurley, in our quest for the truth. Move on in peace,brother.
I'm glad you stopped by Chucklez. Your name was mentioned more than once last night.
Finally watched it. After various issues. It is so sad it is over, but it was one hell of a ride.
I think I kind of like that there are still so many unanswered questions. I think the church wasn't just about Jack but about all of them. Kinda sad that they there was no Michael or Walt (no reason he couldn't be older if he was dead).
By the definition of the Australian aboriginal 'dreamtime' in Wiki, I would say that the island life, which is their truest life, is the dreamtime, not the flash-sideways.
"Aboriginals believe in two forms of time; two parallel streams of activity. One is the daily objective activity, the other is an infinite spiritual cycle called the 'dreamtime', more real than reality itself."
I wouldn't call their plane crash/island lives "daily objective activity", I would say it's more real than the "reality" of the flash-sideways.
Don't you see? We're all living in our flash-sideways right now.
Cosmically Yours
I don't really see how the ending lines up with the earlier theory of purgatory that many had. At that time, so many were saying that they died in the crash, and were dead on the island, and that the island was their purgatory till they worked out their earthly problems/sins. And that's not how it went down at all. To say now that this FS waystation dimensional recognition thing was the original purgatory theory is not really accurate IMHO.
And I guess that we can't really say that TPTB lied about the purgatory question back then, because they were negating the early questions of the island itself being a Purgatory-like waystation, so they wiggled out of that one. But not the "no Scifi" one. :-p
Yeah I don't see the purgatory link although they did leave it open to interpretation as I knew they would. The way I like to see it is that the island was real and the flash sideways was the after life set a long time after the island, after the survivors have also died. We still don't know what the island was really all about.
Anyone see the end of Ashes to Ashes (and by association Life on Mars UK)? That I found a bit disappointing, as I would if that was how Lost had definiteness turned out. I like the ambiguity of it.
The very definition of purgatory is a place you go after you die that isn't Heaven or Hell. Nothing ambiguous about what th writers implied last night.
Vending Machine. . .that's really all I needed. ;)
And thanks to all you guys for letting me watch 'with you' all these years!
It was fun!!
My problem isn't with the fact that it wasn't the Purgatory we thought it was, but with the fact that they said it was not nor would it ever be anything even remotely like Purgatory.... and that is exactly what they gave us.
I would like to ask TPTB one final question..."Why did you feel the ned to lie to all your fans for more than five years?" I hope it was worth it.
On that note I did love the ending for what it was, I knew it wasn't going to be what I wanted it to be, but I did not think they would be so obviouse with it. Who didn't see that coming since the first FS's... I feel relieved and robbed all at the same time.... I guess there really is no Now here... lol
It was a little like they were all waiting for Jack. . .that he was important enough to each of those people in the end. . .even Locke and Sawyer. . .that they were willing to wait for him.
Time didn't exist there - so how 'long' they'd been waiting in the church is irrelevent, right?
Maybe Hurley and Libby had their picnic the day after Hurley died. . .and maybe it took Sawyer thousands of years to find Juliet at the hospital. . .but there's no time there so it didn't matter.
They were seeking out the people that mattered to them to move on to the next venture, and Jack was important to everybody one way or another.
let's see.........neither Heaven nor Hell......yet DEAD.
hmmm............and you're there to basically choose salvation or damnation before MOVING ON!!!
Hello?? Is this thing ON???
P-U-R-G-A-T-O-R-Y!!!!!
My mission is done and I'm content that I was/am right!
Later!
and no. no text. don't have that phone any longer, but thanks for the thought. (everyone)
Nice to see ya Chucklez.... and c-ya in another life brother... Namaste
FWIW a tidbit in regards to "no now here", there used to be this popular Zen poster and bumper sticker (hippie gift store type of thing) that just said: "nowhere". And the test was, did you read "now here", or "no where". Silly actually. But the point of Zen is to Be Here Now, in the now, and not worry about before or later. Much like Jesus' lesson to let the worries of today be enough and not fret about yesterday or tomorrow. Just a thought that comes to mind after hearing CS's speech. :-)
Ded, like Capcom said, it was the "Island as Purgatory-like place" theory that they were denying, not that there wouldn't be ANY part of it where the dead worked on their issues. They wiggled very carefully out of that one.
I'm glad they did.
According to wiki Purgatory is "the condition or process of purification or temporary punishment[1] in which the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for Heaven".
While that is a place you may go when you die that isn't heaven or hell, that doesn't mean that any place you go after you die that isn't heaven or hell is Purgatory. I'd say that's making a pretty big assumption. Sure they were in a church, but then that tied in with Christians funeral and we didn't actually see God or Angels or anything like that. Which means it's up for interpenetration!
BTW, that was pretty funny how Boy-Jacob kept showing up in the weeds in the background on Kimmel. X-D
Fenris, I thought they said it pretty clearly:
The Island contains the Light, a part of which is in all of us, and it must be protected from humanity which would seek to exploit it and thereby endanger it. The Island needs a protector, and when a protector is tired s/he seeks a replacement. It is cloaked, so it can't just be "found" except by accident. That's why a protector is needed, because at times people will come. I guess there is no urgency to find a Candidate because there is no MIB looking to kill the protector.
I wonder how things were under the protection of Hurley? Must have been a good time, I think.
The concept of Purgatory requires that the soul is there to be judged and I didn't see any judgement. Plus when asked where they were going the reply wasn't "Heaven".
The point is, they did it in such a way that it means whatever the individual wishes to see it as. It could be seen as Purgatory, but it could equally be seen as another concept of a stage of the afterlife.
Yes, I'd say that the shouting imagery in the stained glass window was telling us loud and clear to make of the 'hold and transfer' whatever we wished. :-)
It reminded me of the scene in Return Of The King where the Elves and Hobbits floated off into the golden light.
I also like Amy's FB post that it was similar to Titanic as well.
Bigmouth at EMS referred to the end of Solaris (both versions).
Some interesting tidbits from Kristen at E! via Ack Attack:
1. The Man in Black’s name was Samuel, which means Man of God.
2. The person in the cabin that said “Help me” to Locke was the MIB in Christian Shephard’s form.
3. We will find out what happened to Walt on the DVD.
4. Jin was the Kwon on the cave ceiling (which I figured since Sun was a mother, which means she would have been crossed off)
5. The 108 in the Lighthouse was not important – that scene was merely to get Jack to the Lighthouse, and the number 108 held significance for the characters, so it got them to go.
6. The shot of the plane over the credits at the end was just B-roll of the original crash from Season 1 (I think it was just a little homage to the beach and the crash – I’ve heard some places didn’t see that image, which makes me think I’m right about this one.)
7. The Protector of the Island can change the weather, sometimes unconsciously, hence why Jack and Smokey fighting on the cliff was stormy, but as soon as he was gone, it was sunny again.
Good stuff there memphish via Kristen via ack. I'm glad that mib never got a name on the show. They could have cut out some commercials and gave us walt.
Has there been a good reason why Ben didn't go inside the church. I thought he was redeemed
Ben told John it was because he had more to work through. I think John also implied that it might be that Ben didn't want to go with John.
I can't believe in 24 hours I will have seen the series finale to lost and now 24. With no new shows that are peaking my interest. And even law and order. But I know I must let it go
I wonder what more Ben could have done I assume by good number 2 comment by Hurley that he had done good.
i think the flash sideways was more limbo than purgatory. I assume by ben and hugo's little number one and two thing that they lived a lot longer then most everyone else. It was totally like the idea of a karass from cat's cradle. I assume every group that was important to each other had their own version of heaven, jack's was heavy on the crosses and christ, but i bet the egyptian's invitation into the light ceremony would be appropriate to their religion.
I took it to mean his relationship with Alex BigDog and possibly also a sort of penance to Rousseau.
Alex makes sense that would be the person he cared the most about. There could be multiple spinoffs that I would watch with these guys. Ben hugo, miles and Sawyer even rose and Bernard
Did anyone else toss and turn?
Capcom- you asked great questions about what the cork & light symbolize... and about whisper people vs. church people and why some people might be stuck... don't have a clue, but think these are great qs. I also like that "dreamland" scenario... makes sense... both are real and valid, at least equally so.
I think for me, I have to resolve that it is all "real" and valid... and see it now as Jack's journey on and off island, and perhaps his role in helping others realize their "destiny" as he was being helped by them to realize his... death, purgatory, limbo, whatever... each person, relationship, and event was just a part of that process of reaching the 'end'.
Maven, I think (in my scenario) that Jack dies to give them more time, and those who made it off the island, may have had time alive... they only caught up with him later (island time vs. real time, there is no "now")... like many have said, maybe many years later, out of order, however...
I guess I decided this morning that it was a great ep... and though I don't love that they're all dead, and there are still things I think I would have liked to see... I'm still asking questions, still don't have all the answers... that's a pretty good way to end.
I do think there was a lot of unnecessary info and detours and characters I could have done without in the end... but, then again, maybe without them, the experience, not the same...Memphish, I think you said this better than I could explain (and I like your theory on Juliette causing the pregnancy problems)
Ah well... there really is a lot more that can be asked, said, theorized... maybe that's a good thing.
Amused... From the podcast "Purgatory, The afterlife, and crossing over will never have a home in the LOST universe." This is what they said... not me. This is why I feel lied to.
DeDJeZTeR, is that from the same people who said there wouldn't be any time travel?
Amy I don't remember that one as clearly, but I wouldn't put it past them now.
Also, I find it hilarious that Gary Troup is an anagram for purgatory. The only really solid evidence that it was planned from the beginning.
TOL - I like your thoughts.
I don't care if they lied, I don't care if there are unanswered questions about some of the details. As Charlie said about the FS "None of it matters."
I think it's somewhat reflective of life. We get all caught up in the minutiae, but in the end, in the grand scheme of things, the minutiae is nearly irrelevant. It's a reminder that we should keep in mind what's really important as we live our lives - our relationships and community. It is through these relationships that we find our relevance and it's through those relationships that we grow and find whatever redemption our souls may require.
I just finished reading part one of Doc Jensen's recap. It appears that his experience of the finale was similar to mine. I started crying again as he retold the part where Jack laid down to die in the bamboo fields and Vincent cuddled up next to him. Damn, those tears just started rolling again.
Any story that can capture my emotions as completely as this one did is a damn good story indeed.
Dang, if those are their exact words Ded, then they fibbed flat out. Right Amy, I put it into the same category as the 'No SciFi' comments right before the time travel started. X-D
Hey, I can fully appreciate artists not wanting to give away their plans and secrets. And it's stupid to expect an artist to give secrets away. You'd just expect them to deny it in a more creative way than that, but what the hay.
Good info list Memphish, thanks.
After reading everyone's great comments about the deaths, I'm wondering if TPTB didn't feel that they needed to kill of our Losites just to slam the book closed on ever having anything to do with them again. That is, they're dead, no sequels, movies, spinoffs, nuttin'. Dead as doornails. Gone. Over. No more Lostie stories.
Ever. :-p
My Damn internet connection died. So this comment is coming much later then I typed it but:
Amused - Yes, but what is the light? Why does the island have the light and why can pulling a rock out of a hole essentially destroy the world? People said a lot of stuff, but we don't know that Jacob knew any more then his Mother told him and we don't know all of that.
It makes me think back to the Button in season two. All Desmond and then the Losties knew was that the Button had to be attend to and that the fate of the world rested on it. That was enough for Locke (for a while) but not others and in the end it didn't lead to the end of the world.
For me, the light is just another Button.
I don't care so much about the details, or the answers, but the lack of narrative clarity in the BIG PICTURE.
In the end, what did they in fact, die for? (And by they, I mean people whose deaths were directly because of the island/Jacob/MiB - Sun/Jin/Jack/Sayid).
We don't know. After six seasons, the importance of the island, perhaps the show's most interesting character, is still completely a mystery. That's not a minor detail, or a nitpick. That's a huge deal.
Good point about old Gary Troup Amy, I'd forgotten that one.
AL, I don't think the importance of the island is a complete mystery at all. In the lives of our Losties, it was extremely important. It was so important that the relationships forged there transcended death - their souls chose to meet in the hereafter in order to move on together. That's pretty powerful.
As far as its importance to the rest of the world is concerned, that's open to interpretation. But in the sense of the story being told, it doesn't matter. The story being told had more to do with the lives of the people who were directly entangled with it. The story being told was about the characters whose journey we have shared for 6 six years. In the context of their lives, the island's importance is quite clear.
@LostIt, I agree with you from an audience perspective. From the perspective of the creator's intent, however, I think we're wrong. The penultimate episode, really the first part of the finale, is called "What they died for". I do not know what they died for.
Actually, the creators' have repeatedly said that they would be telling the story and filling in the details that were important to the characters. Anything else is deliberately left open to interpretation.
I have chosen to take the leap of faith that what we were told about extinguishing the light bringing about the demise of everyone was true. It didn't happen instantaneously and thus Jack had time to correct the problem before any lasting damage was done.
But in the quest for finding a successor to Jacob so that the MIB could be contained and the light preserved, some people died. It was tragic, but not in vain.
I just saw this link posted at EMS, in case no one posted it here yet:
Someone from Bad Robot's take on the finale
I'm reading it now.
I think that my head is going to explode.....Amy and Lostit, I agree with both of you! :-o
Just finished reading article....I don't think it's a Bad Robot writer for the reasons stated in the comments, but...
Interesting article, but puts some things out there that aren't true. This wasn't JJ's finale. JJ worked on the pilot, and some ideas for Season One. That was it.
Also, yeah, plenty of characters in that church who weren't S1. Or S2. Theory doesn't hold.
Right.
I think that statement about what's important to the characters is illustrated in that scene in the church.
In the end, even though Hurley went on to become king of the island. And even though Sawyer, Kate, and Claire presumably made it back to civilization.
What happened on the island mattered enough to them that in the afterlife, they couldn't find peace and move on until they'd found that group of people again.
So, what mattered was that our losties crashed on a plane and they forged bonds that couldn't even be broken by death.
That's pretty nice when you think about it.
Other than the details, I think that article summed up the overall arc of the show. Whether the author was a Bad Robot writer or not, still a good take of the finale.
I'd like to think the island time really happened and is something the 815 Losties experienced (along with us). Everything that happened, happened. The whole thing really happened through Jack's eyes (or opened eye) and ended when Jack's eye closed. It was his "letting go" that mattered...and those important to HIM were in that church (no matter when they died in their own lives...we don't know when and how Penny dies. Hurley could have lived for centuries.) Time is somehow compressed so that all these important people to Jack can be with him as he goes to the next level.
I don't want to sweat all the small stuff anymore.
Did any of you idendify with the characters on this show? Could you connect with them on a personal level in any way?
I identified with aspects of at least 3 of them. I think that's why I reacted at such a deep emotional level to the finale. It touched me at the core of my being because in a way I felt as if I had shared some of their experiences.
I guess that's why my husband had the "it's just a TV show" attitude. He didn't identify and connect with the characters at that level. He didn't feel as if he had shared any of their exepriences. He was just an observer.
FYI: Darlton talking with Diane Sawyer released today and talking about finale.
Has anyone seen the raft of lists of questins that are starting to appear.
Here is a resonable one - Geekscape List
Anyone that has doubts about the finale, I suggest they read this
An article on the spoiler TV forums, supposedly from someone on the production team / writer staff.
Sorry for posting lots on my own again, but I'm trying to work through the questions in my head.
Ok - Jughead, did it explode ?
Two possibilities in my mind,
First it exploded and simply transported the losties back to the present time, it caused no reset or any other effect, as we now know the sideways was a pre-death limbo.
Second it did not explode at all, only the electromagnetic discharge pulled them back to the present day (including some of the debris from the drill site, like Rose and Bernards cabin).
In either scenario DHARMA created a new version of the bomb or the original jughead bomb stayed back in DHARMA time and they rebuilt the swan station with it as the failsafe payload, which Desmond ultimately detonated.
The only thing I am uncertain of is what effect it had when it was detonated by Desmond, apart from the physical implosion. i.e. why did we get the sky glowing, the sound, etc, I can't fit that event in with anything specific other than Desmond's timetravel / pre-limbo vision.
At the time of the failsafe I don't think Des was time travelling only having a near death experience where Hawking was trying to tell him that whatever he does won't matter as he isn't finished with the real world yet.
I'm listening to The Transmission initial reaction -- what happened to Claire and Aaron on a helicopter? Dang. I'd forgotten I cared about that. :-)
As Maven said, I too am for the most part over the details. My son and my husband were asking me last night, so was it worth it, what happened, etc. And I didn't bother to try to explain the end, but just reiterated that I enjoyed watching the actual episode, that for the first time this season I enjoyed spending the next day scouring the internet for information and talking with people, but that overall the 6th season was very uneven for me and the ultimate conclusion did not rescue S6 from that fate.
Was it worth 5 years of my life? (I watched S1 on DVD.) Absolutely because of all the people I connected with here and in other cyberspace and occasionally real space too and because of all the interesting things I learned about in terms of computers, science and literature. But unlike what I once suspected or hoped from the show it didn't touch me in a way that changed me philosophically or spiritually, and that's okay. And maybe I'm selling it short because I do think Lost helped me to solidify in ways my own faith, not a faith that believes in a universalist way station approach to death, but that's okay.
purgatory isn't for judgment alone! it's for atonement, etc. (by theory).
I don't personally believe in purgatory. However, as definition states, it exists to prepare you for ultimate fates.
Did you notice that Mr. EKO was NOT present????
That's because he was NOT sorry for what he had done!!!!! Killing the man, etc.
Sure, he had changed for the better, but even when you sin, you must either atone for it or pay a price. Regardless of forgiveness, etc.
And again, they were all being "tested".
Good grief. Still in denial......
peace, love and purgatory
Purgatory vs. Limbo
The Dilemma: You’re pretty sure that neither of these postmortem destinations is ideal—but if things don’t work out as planned, you want to know which to pray for.
People You Can Impress: saints, sinners, and everyone in between
The Quick Trick: If you’re reading this, you’re probably not an infant—so purgatory’s your main worry.
The Explanation:
Let’s start with sin. Roman Catholics make a distinction based on a sin’s severity. The biggies—murder, adultery, sacrilege, that type of thing—are called mortal sins because they put your soul in jeopardy of damnation. Die with one of those on your docket and you’re pretty much screwed. The lesser sins that we all commit every day—petty jealousy, fibbing, cutting tags off of mattresses—well, those are venial sins. Confession and absolution free your soul from sin, but if you die with some venial demerits, you’re off to Purgatory, table for one.
Contrary to some popular confusion, Purgatory is not the same thing as Hell. Not by a long shot. Purgatory is a place of punishment whereby your soul is cleansed. While theologians vary on the kind and severity of Purgatorial “punishment,” some say that the agony of waiting for Heaven’s rewards is punishment enough. Folks still living can pray for your soul to shorten your time there (November 2, All Soul’s Day, is set aside specifically for this). Of course, once it’s all shiny and sin free, your soul goes to Heaven to be in the presence of God, seeing God in a “beatific vision.” Whereupon there is much rejoicing. Protestants reject Purgatory because it’s not specifically in the Bible, among other reasons.
As for the doctrine of “limbo,” it’s so controversial that even Catholics aren’t sure they believe in it. By definition, limbo is where the souls of those who are righteous or innocent, but not baptized (and therefore still stained by Adam’s Original Sin), spend eternity deprived of joy. But there are actually two limbos. The first is limbus patrum (limbo of the fathers), where the souls of the just who predated Jesus Christ hung out until he freed us all from sin. The other, limbus infantium, is just what it sounds like—a home for the souls of babies who die before they can be baptized. It’s a place of happiness, but free from the beatific vision, so ultimately a place of punishment for the sin of Adam (stupid fruit!). This doctrine is especially controversial within the Church, and some Catholics have begun accepting an alternative view—that the faithfulness of the parents can redeem an unbaptized baby’s soul. An emotional issue, to say the least, making it a challenge to segue into the other limbo, but—well, we just did.
The Other Limbo
Trinidad’s sacred ritual becomes a game 80-year-olds play on cruise ships. In the late 1950s, American tourists “borrowed” the limbo and turned it into a fixture at dinner parties, beach movies—even in rock-and-roll songs. In fact, Chubby Checker’s “Limbo Rock” was the number 9 hit song of 1962.
Therefore, NOPE. Limbo doesn't qualify. And besides that, if you go back, I always said the show had SOMETHING to do with Purgatory! And guess what? I'm fairly pleased with the thought that it did INDEED have Purgatory or Purgatory-like explanations.
peace, love and purgatory
the island was not purgatory, maybe the sideways was, so i don't see what's to gloat about. i don't buy the theory that they all died on 815.
if desmond flashed to purgatory/limbo after a blast of EM energy, then i question if the past he flashed to after the failsafe was really the past or was that the sideways too. When hawkings told him not to get married and the building fell on the dude, that seemed like a hyper surreal reality like the sideways.
i also think it must have played out before, but without the oceanic six or specifically john locke coming back to the island. Otherwise i don't see how they all could know the war on the island was gonna turn out so bad if the 06 and especially locke didn't return.
i not really convinced that flocke was trying to leave the island, i think he was trying to piss jack off enough to kill him, like mother did to mib.
mib's name is samuel i guess, from the script
I think the purgatory (or at least it's comparison) is for people like Michael who are stuck on the island, unable to move on.
There was an article I read today talking about an Egyptian concept of the body and soul separating at death, and then coming back together when the person is ready to let go of their previous life.
People like Jack, Hurley, and yes even Ben at some point, will get the chance to move on and let go. People like Michael will not, that to me is the real purgatory.
@2costa I don't think anyone is gloating. I think it's neat that people predicted the purgatory so early on.
of course you wouldn't. you're practically my photo negative anyway. You always disagreed with me.
I could tell you that I just typed "typed" and you'd dispute it.
And again, they all had to achieve something, atone for something or "let go" of something before "moving on". Such as, letting go of guilt or sin or earthly will, etc. Or simply letting go of your grasp to try to survive or continue to live. "let go of the real world" and head to the light already, CAR-O-LANNN!! (country voice)
Amy Lynn.........I actually mentioned gloating when I returned. HOWEVER, it was simply in response to Dedjezter's comment that I should've been here "to gloat", etc.
But I'd also like to thank you for your acknowledgment there. Thanks.
if the light is like heaven, then the stakes of the game were having a place to go after you die. If the light went out everyone would be trapped in limbo forever. i mean everyone in the world that died would have no place to go.
if desmond flashed to the sideways after the failsafe it would also explain how hawkings had all this preknowledge.
I wonder if mib's people or people mib influenced after he was the smoke built the water ways by the light or if the ancient egyptians built the water system. It's obvious that the water is what kick started the donkey wheel and also froze the surroundings. Just like the core of the island didn't start working again until the water came back.
i don't think that you can just use any water for your jacob ceremony, it needs to be island water. they showed mother tending a garden, so even the grapes of her wine had island water. It reminds me of how jin seemed to help embryo aaron with some see creature in season one.
i think ben's boyhood dip in the spring informed his soul on what to do throughout the show. Ben always was doing exactly the right thing. He gave miles a walkie. He chose to stay with hurley at the end.
I think the jacob communion definitely informs the person's soul as well. That how hurley knew it was his call to make the rules of the island, such as leaving, after he took the reigns.
and finally, i'd like to also remind all that I stated many times that I would NOT back down from my theory and not only that, but.........i bought personalized plates almost 3 years ago that read, "PRGATRY"!!!
I'm dedicated. To the show and to my theory. But most of all, to God, my wife and my kids.
Anyway..........peace, love and purgatory.
chucklze i like a lot of your theories but i think they made the sideways like purgatory to throw the fans a bone, just like they killed nikki and paulo for us.
i don't think mike is trapped on the island, i think his heaven would be with walt and his mom and walt would wanna be with his mom as well. If the souls were trapped on the island i bet they could leave when the island was shut down. It seemed like frank didn't even need a special bearing to leave the island.
i think the only reason it was so judeo/christain oriented in the finale is we are largely seeing christain people in the church besides sayid and he was never so their narrative is in terms judeo christian icons. I bet that when the egyptians from the island were dying or in their sideways they were in a pyramid and saw ra or whatever.
it seemed like the widmore's got their personal heaven in the sideways. Or the sideways is like a preheaven where having a body and memories still matter, but when you rejoin the light none of that matters anymore. So the people we didn't see in the church were not bad, they just had other more important people to share the sideways with.
@2costa, this is where you frustrate me, when you say things like "I don't think Mike is trapped on the island."
Michael is trapped on the island. The character says it, Darlton has said it, Harold P. has said it.
You can't make up your own opinions about facts.
the island wasn't even specifically purgatory for the dead, christain's spirit appeared to jack off island in the hospital, which implies he was just trapped in the temporal plane not on the island. The sideways wasn't even like classical purgatory, sayid was still a killer, his love of shannon is what snapped him out of it, not a redemptive act.
amy lynn, i think he was trapped by the em field, but isn't anymore. the heart of the island shutting down set him free. Purgatory isn't forever. Maybe the island Sheol. Maybe mike had to help hurley before he could move on. If all the ghosts that have ever been trapped on the island are still there, why did we just see ghosts from richard's past on to the present.
@2costa, because it wasn't important to the characters to see that.
i think that science was still in play the producers just left it open, people like sausage, but don't need to see the metachlorians that go into making it.
even in a judeo/christain context, you don't stay in purgatory or limbo forever, just until the final judgment or until you can earn your way out. I don't think it's a stretch to think that the church ceremony coincided with the final judgment. Hurley and ben obviously lived much longer than everyone else, but time is irrelevant.
i think the island was underwater in the sideways to represent jack failing in his mission to save the island, if he failed to let go in time in the sideways and island time.
was vincent still alive at the end?
i think it's cool in retrospect to think of dogen in the sideways, he was really the only non core group that seemed on the road to redemption.
i wonder if the writers were implying that dying in the sideways kept you form joining the light. Most of the bad guys like keamy or omar never got a chance to rejoin the light.
I bet mrs klugh or people that sacrificed themselves for the cause got their own reenter the light moment
I too think the island being underwater was a bit of a red herring for the viewer, implying that in this FS world it didn't exist and that our losties did not have to worry about it.
A classic bit of misdirection from the writers and producers.
The island underwater is a cool graphic image. And we don't know that the island isn't underwater once Hurley and Ben leave.
Yes I loved the underwater island visual, and who knows maybe Hurley will find a way to take the heart of the island and make it portable so the island isn't needed.
Hmmm, I can see a new plot, any one got Darlton's phone number ?
Personally I find repetitious gloating annoying and boorish, but that's just me. :-\
Didn't Amy find out that Eko was not in the finale only because AAA refused to negotiate? Not because Eko was not included in the ether-world redemption for story reasons? Besides, we were shown that Eko found the way to peace in the here-after with his brother right after he died.
It think it's possible that the trapped souls like Mike might finally be released from the island once the conflict on the island ended, with Hurley's and Ben's more peaceful "reign", i.e. with no MIB to muck up the process. But we'll never know, so things like that just don't matter anymore I guess.
I feel about the same way you do Memphish. S6 didn't do much for me in regards to what I had seen up to that point. The finale was OK, but didn't help me resolve my lost feelings about S6, but I'm just resolved to let it go now, the same way I did with the X-Files. It was fun while it lasted and engaged my imagination, and an unsatisfying resolution IMO won't spoil that part for me. But I don't have to say that I loved the ending...in fact I feel that the schmaltz was a bit emotionally manipulating, because sure, who doesn't want to see all the broken relationships patched up and everyone getting all huggy again for the ultimate feel-good moment. I liked the island ending and would have enjoyed seeing more of that than everyone turning into angels. But that's just my take on it at this point, my feelings could evolve as time passes and I rewatch the finale.
if you haven't seen it yet check out this
The most interesting part I found was about the flash sideways.
Oh yeah, I did half expect someone to turn to Jack at the end and say "So... why exactly did we nuke the island again?". LOL.
Anyway, I have to catch up on comments due to my stupid internet connection.
@Fenris, that was already debunked as fake.
and yes they are calling it "a purgatory", though that is different from "Purgatory". As I said before Purgatory is a specific Christian concept while what they are going for is a bit of a mix where groups of linked people create their own afterlife step on the greater journey.
I'm not going to go on about that one anymore though.
Ah well, I said I needed to catch up. Still I do like what was written as far as conclusions go. The only bit that I doubted was the obviously dodgy bit about everyone in the Church being from season one.
@Fenris, also the bit about JJ Abrams writing the finale. The FS wasn't even concieved until S3.
I can't help but think of Giant Ghost Walt and Ben's Mum. Neither died on the island and neither had their dead bodies left on the island (at least as far as we know in the case of Ben's Mum).
I'm also finding the whole 70s thing, while I enjoyed it, something akin to an overly complex time defiying masterplan to make the Losties arrive on the island in the first place.
Finally did Desmond actually flash to the Limbo afterlife when subjected to Widmores electromagnetism?
Whatever else I'm saying, I want to be clear I still really loved the finale. I think it ended the only way it could. The certainly couldn't finish it just with Jack dying on the island and a handful of people surviving.
College Humor asks 100 remaining Lost question. I too want to know the answer to about 90 of these.
Chucklez...you got a wife and kids? If so, Congratulations, my friend! You had neither when this journey started. I'm glad life has been good to you. (Unless you were using wife and kids as a figure of speech. then nvm)
"They know how the series ends. They have an outline in their minds, but the exact sequence of events, the trail of dialogue that leads us there, the details of it and who does what to whom, will be worked out during the course of the season. But yes, they know how it ends."
this is from this interview in Parade with Michael Emerson
So if they had it written years ago, maybe right after the Pilot, then it guided them along the way, even if the details of how they got there had to be made up as they went. I can buy that. Same thing with the Harry Potter novels, Rowling said she had the final scene written and locked up for a loooong time. And Babylon 5's last episode was not only written but filmed before the final season was agreed to (they weren't sure it was going to be picked up for that 5th year).
I'm just saying it's possible.
one more:
What's Next for Lost Cast?
I love Terry O'Quinn's idea for a series with him and Emerson. Guest spots by the Straum/Ford cop duo?
Hey everyone, Happy LOST da........................... Crap thats right.... lol
lol@dedjezter!
It's Tuesday and there's no LOST.
I feel so...lost.
Fenris:
Purgatory vs. Limbo
The Dilemma: You’re pretty sure that neither of these postmortem destinations is ideal—but if things don’t work out as planned, you want to know which to pray for.
People You Can Impress: saints, sinners, and everyone in between
The Quick Trick: If you’re reading this, you’re probably not an infant—so purgatory’s your main worry.
The Explanation:
Let’s start with sin. Roman Catholics make a distinction based on a sin’s severity. The biggies—murder, adultery, sacrilege, that type of thing—are called mortal sins because they put your soul in jeopardy of damnation. Die with one of those on your docket and you’re pretty much screwed. The lesser sins that we all commit every day—petty jealousy, fibbing, cutting tags off of mattresses—well, those are venial sins. Confession and absolution free your soul from sin, but if you die with some venial demerits, you’re off to Purgatory, table for one.
Contrary to some popular confusion, Purgatory is not the same thing as Hell. Not by a long shot. Purgatory is a place of punishment whereby your soul is cleansed. While theologians vary on the kind and severity of Purgatorial “punishment,” some say that the agony of waiting for Heaven’s rewards is punishment enough. Folks still living can pray for your soul to shorten your time there (November 2, All Soul’s Day, is set aside specifically for this). Of course, once it’s all shiny and sin free, your soul goes to Heaven to be in the presence of God, seeing God in a “beatific vision.” Whereupon there is much rejoicing. Protestants reject Purgatory because it’s not specifically in the Bible, among other reasons.
As for the doctrine of “limbo,” it’s so controversial that even Catholics aren’t sure they believe in it. By definition, limbo is where the souls of those who are righteous or innocent, but not baptized (and therefore still stained by Adam’s Original Sin), spend eternity deprived of joy. But there are actually two limbos. The first is limbus patrum (limbo of the fathers), where the souls of the just who predated Jesus Christ hung out until he freed us all from sin. The other, limbus infantium, is just what it sounds like—a home for the souls of babies who die before they can be baptized. It’s a place of happiness, but free from the beatific vision, so ultimately a place of punishment for the sin of Adam (stupid fruit!). This doctrine is especially controversial within the Church, and some Catholics have begun accepting an alternative view—that the faithfulness of the parents can redeem an unbaptized baby’s soul. An emotional issue, to say the least, making it a challenge to segue into the other limbo, but—well, we just did.
The Other Limbo
Trinidad’s sacred ritual becomes a game 80-year-olds play on cruise ships. In the late 1950s, American tourists “borrowed” the limbo and turned it into a fixture at dinner parties, beach movies—even in rock-and-roll songs. In fact, Chubby Checker’s “Limbo Rock” was the number 9 hit song of 1962.
Therefore, NOPE. Limbo doesn't qualify. And besides that, if you go back, I always said the show had SOMETHING to do with Purgatory! And guess what? I'm fairly pleased with the thought that it did INDEED have Purgatory or Purgatory-like explanations.
Purgatory is NOT a "Christian" belief as pretty much everyone but Catholics and a couple others believe it.
Baptists, Methodists, etc. DON'T believe.
However, as it was said, it WAS "a purgatory" which is all I ever said.
And aside from that, everyone can throw darts all they want, but the fact remains that I'm right. And Capcom...........again..........NO ONE IS GLOATING!!! Sheesh. It was a joke by Dedjezter and I ran with it. Period.
and again for Amy Lynn.......thanks for the pseudo-support. hahaha.
Amused: I've had my 2 girls from my previous marriage. However, I got married back in August to my high school girlfriend. Hadn't seen her in over 17 years until I moved back to 'Bama.
I move back here and I get a National (NCAA) Football Championship, a wife who was my best friend/girlfriend growing up, i'm closer to my daughters and I was right about lost (sorta).
peace, love and purgatory
I love happy endings.
"The images shown during the end credits of the 'Lost' finale, which included shots of Oceanic 815 on a deserted beach, were not part of the final story but were a visual aid to allow the viewer to decompress before heading into the news," an ABC spokesperson wrote in an e-mail Tuesday.
YEah cut the guy some slack and grow a sense of humor. And I believe I said Rub it in Nnot not Gloat. If we are gonna get all up in a tizzy over a joke at least we can get it right..... can't we.... no seriously.... can't we.
Maybe its purgellimboville and we will leave it at that....
Maybe it is none of that stuff, because Christian did say "This is a place you all created." It is none of the above.
Case Closed.... ?
not not..... strike that - reverse it.... wait thats not right either... I give up!
ah, just like old times!
Phew-finished the 500+ comments- well if the finale doesn't deserve it, what does?
I was at the J&J party with the 2000 or so other fans-great fun to react all together-but of course missed discussing with you all- sounds like the watch was insightful as usual.
(I did get to ask Michael Emerson a question in Q&A- so that was pretty special!)
I have one thing about leaving mysteries. Darlton have always said they did not want to do like Star Wars and explain the Force, that it was better left as a non specific concept.
But Star Wars is a fairy tale, with aliens and death stars, set in galaxies far far away. It is an adventure story far more than a mystery.
Lost was interesting because you cared about the characters, but just as importantly because you were trying to figure out what was going on. It was a puzzle, a mystery. I don't get that you take away its appeal by solving the puzzle. I read a lot of mysteries, and they can be very powerful, but still give answers to the questions they have raised (see- "Guys, where are we?")
I enjoyed the finale-I had hoped the Losties would get to a better place through sorting out their issues, and it seems they did. I hoped for less unexplained rules and ghosts floating about- but oh,well- I'm not going to search through Darlton interviews. What's there is there.
This may be different on rewatch, now that I understand Jack is really dying in the island time, but was anyone else more moved by Jack telling David that he did not need to be perfect than by his death scene?
I don't know what issue in himself Jack was solving by saving the world- I thought his problem was that he felt he had to save everyone because his father didn't believe in him. I really don;t know why that did not resonate with me.
But again-I did love watching the finale-and thanks to you all for all the helpful thoughts.
I have chosen to take the leap of faith that what we were told about extinguishing the light bringing about the demise of everyone was true
Lostit- I don't like them all being dead, but I like your explaination of it. Your ideas about things not being in vain also smacks of Sayid saying he was willing to give his life to secure rescue, but not otherwise.... with that said...
If it wasn't in vain, I can't accept that either reality was completely purgatory/afterlife or "unreal"--- with the exception of Capcom's "dreamland" explaination which for, me, because it fits all the scenario of 'working things out, atoning and moving on" (valid points of the purgatory theory) yet still being real. Perhaps more self actualization and realization of destiny...but both still real. I think that concept of that "dreamland", for me, can include the possibility of Ben staying behind to work things out... etc..
The final evidence for me was that Jack's neck wound occurred possibly? simultaneously in both realities (REALities). And could it be that the appendix scar was rather the stab wound?
Lost 2010, I like your summary about moving through things as a group- I think the group revolved around Jack's destiny... just like life, we're shaped by and shape others around us who become part of us.
I also think that Kate's reaction to Christian Shepard's name, and Christian's funeral being the final gathering place, might allude to Christian having a hand at bringing them all together. Perhaps, he needed to see Jack realize his destiny, resolve their relationship and to say good bye to before HE could move into the light.
Lostit- yes, i could relate to many of the characters in the show! For me, that was the hook!
2c- I LOVE the theory that the light is somewhere to go... if it's out, people are stuck with no where to go. That really fits for me, thanks!
Its kind of fun that even after "answers" - we all still have our own version of them!
Hi Guys
My internet has been spotty at best the past few days so I haven’t been able to keep up on the posts. Will try to catch up later.
I don’t want to offend anyone but I think that I’m the only one here that the ending fell flat for. It wasn’t amazing or emotional for me. So I’m going to make this VERY long post and be done with it. I hope.
Apparently I was meant to make this rant. Because blogger wont' accept my HTML code and says I have too many characters. So I'm going to break it up into 2 posts and see it that works.
I finally got a chance to read the post from the Bad Robot employee. To me it read like just another fan opinion on the ending not necessarily someone with extra information or insight in the episode. Which is fine it’s well thought out and written. This is some of my opinions on what he said.
“The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies”
I wonder if this was a Freudian slip because I think he meant concept? :)
“Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.”
I’m sorry but I found it hokey and lame. At least the way it was presented. I still have a hard time accepting they created an afterworld to live in together so they could find each other after death and not even recognize or remember each other until Desmond comes along and wakes them up. And even that wouldn’t have happened if Widmore hadn’t put him in the box of electromagnetism and then have him run into Charlie who had remembered the island but didn’t take it upon himself to awaken the rest but left it up to Desmond to do.
That video of 100 questions I posted earlier, here's an attempt to answer them.
Ok here's the second part of my VERY long post.
“The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.”
Faith doesn’t always have to be faith in God or what/who ever you believe in, in your religion. It can also be about faith in mankind. Which I felt was what the show was trying to show us. Apparently I was wrong.
“They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.”
Again I don’t have a problem with them going on together. It’s just the way they chose to do it. If it had ended with Jack and his father and Jack finally being able to accept his father I could have lived with that. Even opening the doors and going into the light didn’t bother me. It was the whole creating a holding area to hang out in for years until Jack could finally accept his death, and basically live out a “new” life until that time. Because they get to recreate their own version of their life. Even though there was no concept of time it just seemed hokey to me. Also the whole group hug thing worked better on the island when they would find each after not knowing if they had survived or not. The fact that , that was all the FS was to me was a let down.
These two paragraphs don’t work because Desmond and Penny were in the church. Neither of them were in season 1. But it is a good thought otherwise.
“They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc)”.
“But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.”
It felt like it was a bait and switch to me. They did everything they possibly could to make us believe it was actually another timeline or another universe. Well, I guess it could be considered another universe. Now that I know it was a made up in their heads afterlife the FS seem pointless. It wasn’t the concept of them being so connected they had to move on together it was the way they choose to present it.
Also why did it seem like there was such an urgency for Desmond to get everyone “awake”? Especially if it was the afterlife.
Ok I’m done. Thanks to those who took the time to read this for letting me rant. :)
Oh and I’m not even sure I’m going to buy the Season 6 dvd. But I probably will like my husband said I may as well have the set.
Hi Sayid'sgirl, I can understand all of those points and can sympathise.
I tried to look past the literal interpretations and I am seeking a personal interpretation based on my own experience.
The scene in the church was, for me, a refelection of the fan community and the realisation that all of our lives are really defined by the people we meet and the good that we do. Whether that good is immediate and pure or whether someone finds redemption for what they have done.
The only thing I will say is I think they missed an opportunity to expand / conclude some of the easier mysteries that would have given people a more immediate and definitive closure. A lot of time was spent with the sideways / limbo world that wasn't really necessary in my view.
I wouldn't change the end at all, but I would shorten the journey.
@SG, you are certainly not the only one. I hated the last 10 minutes of the show. "Hokey" doesn't begin to describe it, for me. The concept of purgatory could have been placed in any show on TV. It was very untrue to the show, and the characters.
if the sideways was pre-heaven or whatever, why did sun hit her head and stop speaking english?
did dying in the sideways mean you weren't going into the light. like roger and anthony cooper seemed to be being punished for their real lives.
interesting that mib's wound to jack's neck appeared from the beginning of the sideways.
are we supposed to think the island is a volcano and it was gonna blow if jack didn't replace the statue?
why wasn't sun supposed to kill colleen, didn't seem to impair sun getting to go into the light?
was jacob leaving the island before richard came. If he wasn't getting directly involved how was jacob bringing people to the island?
i think part of why this season was so Christianity oriented is dating back to richard it was mostly christains on the island.
with mike what is the point of redemption if you can't earn your way off the island purgatory?
was vincent still alive at the end?
did kate miss jack so much because she lived a long life off the island?
so was the smoke just an island temple guardian before jacob merged it with mib?
did the people who built vents for smokey and the catacombs build the water ways by the light?
did desmond get a new body after the failsafe and that why he was naked and is that the same mechanism that allowed locke to have 2 corpses?
why were dharma workers dying form the em energy drilling by the donkey wheel, but mib and his people could just stand in the donkey wheel site's light and be fine.
if the island heals people why didn't it heal jack after the light statue thing?
how is it a jacob rule to not let people leave? he let the 06, locke, ben, widmore, walt/mike, tom, and richard all leave.
did christain ever have ties to the island or did he help jack just because he was already a ghost?
is it just me or did the producers not show smokey in the end because of how rushed they were to make it and had a pretty flimsy budget and no time for cgi?
if jack was supposed to die in the pilot, how could they have had this ending planned?
i agree amy lynn that perhaps the island got sunk by the end of hurley's reign.
did the producers make hurley the protector because they knew he would never be in the position to turn down lost $ or work in the future?
did jack have to put jughead in the swan in order to fufill the whh of the incident. Would doing nothing have messed everything up?
if it's a jacob rule not to leave how did widmore father penny?
did richard go along with widmore or ben saying jacob said to do something because he painted himself in a corner as far as telling the rest of the others that jacob was communicating with the leaders.
would the 06 not leaving have changed things and how?
was ana lucia not ready in the sideways because she had all those murders on her soul?
what was the point of artz?
"what was the point of artz?"
I can see a LOST retrospective book in 10 years time being called that :-)
Modern Arzt: a LOST retrospective
I said I wouldn't talk about it not being Purgatory again, but I will one last time. What I see as Purgatory is not what the Losties went through. To me they are distinctly different and some people may choose to extend a definition of Purgatory to include almost any afterlife situation that lays some way between what we call life and whatever the final destination, and they may call it "a purgatory" but I still don't see it as such and will continue to disagree. Sure Limbo isn't any better. But really does an afterlife represented in a fictional TV show HAVE to be something that is part of a known mythos and has a name?
The reason I argue so strongly against it is because I don't want Lost to simply be tagged in many years time as being about Purgatory because then it puts into the Story many things that were not there. I feel Lost is better then that and we shouldn't write onto it anything not specifically said in the series as if it was show fact. Sure we can speculate but let's not call it absolute fact. Let's be accurate and separate speculation from fact. Call it an afterlife, a place between other worlds, a stage in the greater journey. But don't call it a name that suggests a very specific Catholic set of beliefs are attached to it and were intended to be a vital part of the Lost universe.
To me one of the best things about Lost is that it leaves things open to interpretation and wild theories, even after it's conclusion.
Anyway, I was going to talk about other stuff but I rambled on a bit so I'll do that in another post.
@Fenris, you are incorrect. It's purgatory.
I sympathise with you SG (and 2C with that barrage of extra questions there).
For me the sideways world in the finale was like a nice bit of nostalgic Lost geekiness. But while I liked seeing everyone (well, everyone that was there anyway) it didn't sit that well with me as a conclusion to the mysteries of Lost and as time has past since viewing it (and not yet even 48 hours) it is has started to bug me more and more.
I can deal with having a lot of unanswered questions, but it does seem like they managed to drop a few gaping holes into it as well. Of course I have to remind myself that there is not a sci-fi/fantasy show around that has been free from plot holes. Lost has been much better then most, but I think they largely got around it thanks to the number of mysteries associated with it. As soon as they put a conclusion onto it, suddenly some of the vagueness turned into redundancy.
I don't know how else they could do it. But I do wish they had found another way. One that didn't seem to make a large portion of this season (90% of the FS stuff) redundant. I also wonder how this last season would look edited together without the FS stuff. Actually how would the series look without most of the Flashbacks too as many of them were not really that relevant.
Of course it was largely about the Journey and not the Destination. It was also largely about the characters and not the mysteries. I don't feel let down by the Characters or the Journey. But for the Destination and the Mysteries, Well, I always felt there was a lot more promise then they seemed to have delivered. I also think that the writers underestimated how important the mysteries were to the series, which seems silly considering how obvious we've made that as fans.
@Amy, No I'm not & it is not.
Shall we go on like this all day or just agree to disagree?
@Fenris, you can be wrong until the box set proves you wrong.
@Amy, I will continue to be right until the end of time I'm afraid.
:rolls eyes:
I'm sorry you didn't understand the finale. I really am.
I'm sorry you don't understand what Purgatory is and are incapable of accepting other people may have opinions that are different from yours. Must be a hard burden to carry.
Maybe you need to watch it again.
Maybe you need to just accept reality.
OMG, are you four? Grown up.
or show me the bit where they specifically refer to it as Purgatory by the words "This is purgatory" otherwise you need to just stop acting like they have officially announced it.
Hey! I believe I was the one that asked us to agree to disagree. Your the one that won't drop it. Perhaps you should grow up?
OK, I'm just going to ignore you. I'm really sorry you are incapable of understanding the finale.
You know I called it opinions and I've always spoken about it as opinions and said your welcome to have yours but I disagree. But you've come along and basically called me an idiot for thinking something different to what you think.
I find that very sad and I am sorry that you have to feel that way.
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