Tonight: Kate's on the run while Jack must do something that could jeopardize the life of a friend.
So, you know, same as most episodes!
Keep your eyes peeled for at least one really interesting guest star...
Tuesday, February 09, 2010
What Kate Does - Season 6, Episode 2
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I know ya'll don't like Kate, but she said something that peaked my interest. When she asked Claire, "If I told you I was innocent would you believe me?" and Claire said yes. Do you think she was checking to see how gullible Claire was or do you think in this universe Kate really didn't kill anyone? I know from the Comic Con America's Most Wanted video it said Kate had mistakenly killed an employee of her stepfather. Maybe her stepdad killed him? Maybe he was trying to get insurance money by blowing up his own business? Maybe Kate HAS been good like Jacob told her to be in this life. I don't remember seeing the silver Halliburton(?)case in the season premiere. No case = no toy plane = no bank robbery to get it = no digging up time capsule = yada yada yada.
Just got done watching the ep. (Grateful for DVR.) A bit indifferent to the episode. Like someone said earlier, I seem to be that way with Kate centric eps.
I'd hate to call that episode filler, but it seemed to take 60 minutes to tell us one or two things. (Claire is alive, the "sickness" is real.) When the Others decide to talk/not talk/keep secrets/etc, it seems convenient in only moving the plot along. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. (I didn't buy the act of the Others that went with Kate and Jin either.)
Still processing the ep, though. Who knows, I may change my mind on the ep, just like the Others on when they feel like talking/not talking/telling the truth/telling a lie.
the Baseball looks alot like the one in Kates Time Capsule......i know they all look almost the same.
as it stops spinning for the first time, is there something written on it? on the right corner
OK, he did have the case, but she didn't grab it and take it with her.
2 more things...Ethan = CREEPY
Josh was so awesome tonight. I'm ready to have the grieving over with too, but man! In his timeline SHE JUST DIED! We are on different timelines you know;)
Got home just in time to watch LOST, then run errands, and drive someone to work. I'll need to shovel again in a bit, just wanted to pop in and say hi Locos.
The TempleOthers seemed to really want Sawyer to stay...presumably so they didn't have to worry about him getting Smokified? I can understand why the TempleOthers would be cautious, but agree with you all that they would have had a better chance with our LOSTies if they had just explained what was going on.
The waters of the Spring only became murky recently (probably after Jacob's death). So the water Ben and Claire were Templified in would have been clear, and this difference should mean something. Though Dogen tells Jack that Claire was claimed in the same way, she would have had clear water, and the TempleOthers apparently did not feel the need to kill her (or were prevented from doing so). And though Ben was claimed he was still allowed to become leader of the Others. Maybe only because of Jacob's contingency plan?
If the sickness Rousseau described is the same as being claimed, then who took her team's bodies to the Temple and why did they even bother to go ahead and Templify them?
Loving the term Clusseau. But who took Claire to the Temple Did Smokey drag her there himself?
It was fun to see PTL-Ethan as PTL-Claire's OB in xPTL. Good catch on the date on that ultrasound -- another thing I'll have to try to RW. The medical science, dialogue overall remains sub-par.
What else was in Sawyer's box and did he have that ring brought in from off-Island in DHARMAtime? Does he plan on just hanging out in his old house in New Otherton? I wonder if Sawyer had any inside Smokey info from the DHARMA days.
I am a bit disappointed that our LOSTies have decided to scatter and aren't really working together (except for Hurley/Jack/Miles to a small extent).
Its unpopular but I still don't think the 2 PTLs are causally linked by the Incident.
Back to shoveling.
Trying to recall exact words, what was it Jin said to Kate before they separated?
RamHatter -- Jin asked Kate, "Who do you care bout Kate?" and then "Once you catch up with Sawyer then what?"
I forgot to add yay for Aldo/Rob McElhenney!
@ob8 - Why do we think that they had to go the temple to be "infected"? Did Dogen say she went to the temple? I take it that is the "risk" that he mentions to Jack before drowning Sayid in the murky Jacob-free spring. If the waters can't save you then you might die and be claimed by MIB. Perhaps Claire went with Christian/Smokey for direct "claiming" in the catacombish area around the temple like the French folks did, lured in if you will.
Thanks ObFuSc8! I was too lazy to get out of bed, go back downstairs to the basement, and pull up the ep on DVR. Too busy writing a post about the ep and reading everyone else's thoughts.
So if Claire is "claimed", and is now acting like Rousseau...was Rousseau "claimed" too? Aldo (or the other guy) said Rousseau died a long time ago, like it wasn't just 3 years ago (like when he got cold cocked by Kate). Rousseau's story was that her team got sick and she had to kill them, but did she get the sickness after that? OR is Claire just acting like Rousseau for some blank reason?
In the O815 crash timeline/2004 Ethan injected Claire when she was pregnant with the vaccine didn't he? Wasn't that to keep her from getting the sickness- like Desmond was injecting himself? Or was that vaccine different from what Desmond was using and it was to keep Claire from dying like the other pregnant women? Now I'm vaccine confused. If the vaccines are the same...why was Ethan concerned that Aaron or Claire were going to get the sickness? Ok I'm totally confused on this point, maybe it's too late and I need sleep.
Melissa_Lossa- re: 3 types of "claimed" by Smokie...I agree, I don't understand (if indeed they are all claims of Smokie) why there are 3 different scenarios of that?
On JKL, Daniel Dae Kim just explained why the statue only has 4 toes in "Secrets of Lost"..."diabetes" LOL
Oh BTW- thank you for all the Birthday wishes yesterday! Had a great day!
Just finished the episode and catching up with you guys. As usual, you all noticed things I did so my notes are redundant already:
Agreed that Sawyer's grief seems like a long time, but in reality it's only been a very short time for him to have lost her. Powerful acting tonight by Josh!
It's seems that Dogen wants to keep the Losties together as a group...were they all on Jacob's list?
Recognized Aldo as being from Room 23 Guard...Kate gets him again! He's about as annoying as Frogurt and Dr. Artz! LOL
Agree that the infection = the sickness. And that the murky Temple waters "infected" Sayid (but not the Dogen who dipped his cut palm in it?). Were Rousseau's teams dipped in that pool, too?
Hurley's reference to Zombie I think was a shout out to fans and Darlton's insistence there will not be a Zombie season on Lost! LOL
Isn't every cop in LA searching for the taxi cab, and Kate is just idly driving around helping Claire? I thought she was on the run?
Ethan almost replays the scene he had with Claire on island...didn't he stick her with needles then? I guess he was always supposed to be a doctor.
When Dogen tells Jack that he was "brought" here like everyone else, I had the feeling that he was lured here by Jacob (like Jacob lured the Black Rock to the island). If he was brought here like everyone else...who are the real indigenous inhabitants?
@ML: Good catch that Claire might be the one setting Rousseau-like traps now. She might have the sickness.
@TAV: Love the Clousseau nickname!
Also, the idea that unless your body is buried on the island, you will be claimed. (Thank goodness Nikki and Paulo were buried!)
I think that Sayid has to willingly take the pill in order for it to work on him.
@Lostit: Good catch on the stuffed orca being young Aaron's toy, too!
LOL maven, I thought the same thing about Nikki and Paulo! Although I don't even think Smokey would want them!
Ok I'm off to bed...catch ya'll tomorrow.
I guess Sayid didn't pass the test because he had human reactions to the torture? He felt the pain.
Again, I keep coming back to this murky water issue, the temple and the relationship to being "claimed". I just can't piece it nicely together.
First, the temple spring. Normally, it's clear but now murky after Jacob's death. If it were alone capable of "infecting" or claiming someone, it would have done so with Dogen's cut hand. Clearly, he expected it to heal but it didn't. With Jacob gone, anyone who dies may be susceptible to being claimed by death/Smokey/MIB unless properly buried at sea or underground. Doesn't exactly fit with the vaccination scheme and clearly Roger Linus wasn't "claimed" after death. Help.
It appears the others detest and are terrified of Smokey. Richard looks terrified at learning who UnLocke is. The temple folks are going crazy preparing to protect the temple. But Ben clearly courts Smokey to some extent when he calls him to New Otherton through the floor drain from which he must first drain the murky water. Again with the water. Is it normally a barrier? Arrgg!
I need to sleep on it and dream my way to a rational conclusion. I'll let you know how it turns out.
So, do we have a Star Wars reference if Sawyer, in his anger, turns to the dark side? He'll be MIB's padawan.
How about MIB=good, Jacob=evil.
Consider their "friends":
MIB: Clair, Christian, new Sayid,
John's body.
Jacob: Old Ben,Richard,Whitmore,
the Japanese guy
Instructions:
Jacob:kill Dharma,kill fathers
MIB: kill Jacob'
Ambitions:
MIB: go home
Jacob: lure more people to island.
As a new day begins in The Lost Community; I awoke with a Lost hangover.
A few mental notes before
watching "What Kate Does" again.
LA X="We are the variables";
You do the math.
This isn't LA.
It's a place where memories happen.
Not reading a single comment until I've watched this in around 6 hours time. Hope you all had a great night and I can't wait to read what you all have to say.
Not only did they both meet watery ends, but I'm pretty sure that the ring Sawyer had for Juliet is exactly the same ring Desmond bought for Penny.
Can someone can grab a screen image of Sawyer's ring to compare to this one (my download hasn't finished yet)?
Desmond's ring
I can't grab a screen cap but Desmond's ring is not the same as Sawyer's (Sawyers is flatter).
Everyone has pretty much covered what I thought... though I thought Lennon was talking about Dogen when he says he doesn't have a sense of humour.
Oh I also noticed Jin sounding a little clearer with his English... I just took it as he's getting better with it as he's been speaking it for some time now.
And back to Sawyer (can't stay away too long ;) ), was it just me or his shirt was amazingly clean in this episode?
Morning LoCos. Well a night's sleep didn't really improve my feelings about the episode but that still doesn't stop me from minutia gathering or commenting.
Does anyone know for sure which Twitter account is Damon? Are they both him?
Other items - what was Dogen typing? Was he communicating a la Fringe to the alt-verse?
As for the whole infection/sickness/claiming thing I'm as murky as the Temple spring. The rules for that are nowhere near apparent yet. There was one thing that stood out though. Dogen said if they didn't get Sayid to take the pill that the infection would spread. It makes me think that only one of the French team was claimed by whatever claimed him and then the infection spread from team member to team member. I don't know if Danielle was infected to. Maybe. I also don't understand why Danielle was able to kill her team and that was okay but the Others don't seem to want to kill Sayid themselves (or Claire for that matter) to end the threat. After all Ben didn't mind ordering people to be killed, and MIB in The Incident said they come and they kill.
And as for the shots given to Claire, I would like an explanation for that. Maybe they were what gave her enough time for her to be claimed rather than dying instantly.
Also, I don't get why if it's MIB who is claiming people why Smokey killed the pilot, Eko, French girl and bit Nikki and Paolo. There's so much inconsistency right now I'm very confused.
Good call on the baseball in Kate's time capsule. It was not in Richard's Locke testing kit. There was a baseball glove.
This is not a great shot, but here's Sawyer's ring for Juliet and Desmond's ring that ends up in the Thames
Another thing that's confusing me is how much the Temple Others think they need Jack, Sawyer, etc apparently because they are on Jacob's list in the guitar case. Then why weren't they on a list back when they crashed on the Island? And is Locke who was also touched by Jacob in the real world on the list, cause they pretty much aren't going to want him I'd think. Also why would Miles be on the Iist? Was he touched in a deleted scene?
Another thing that didn't make sense to me is how the Others got Sayid strapped up to the testing table. They were fighting with the Others about it, Sawyer leaves, Kate and Jin and Aldo and Justin leave and then Sayid and Jack just gave in and let them do that to him?
A much better picture of Sawyer's ring
And another
Sorry for the serial posting. I'm up and bored.
Thanks Memphish! Just goes to prove my memory isn't all that reliable... :)
Hey Locos. Snowed in here in Ohio... can't wait for summer!
Help me understand something. Do the Templeites know why the water is murky? We assume it's because Jacob is dead. But Dogen is shocked to hear this after they drown Sayid in the murky water. I think I'm missing something.
It's a secret and they won't tell you ib4uc. :-p
Actually I have no clue. The motivation of the Temple Others is baffling to me. I was just reading a review that talked about how they are very free will focused, and that has been playing out, but then why do they need guns and ashes? It does explain why Ben wanted Jack to want to fix him back in S3, but then Ben was willing to cut corners and take what wasn't given him. Maybe that's where all his problems started.
Love it so far...this whole season reminds me of Stephen King's Regulators/Desperation. In case you have not read those, they are two separate novels involving the SAME cast of characters and two COMPLETELY different storylines. The characters even say some of the exact same lines in both books, but in different contexts.Tak!
morning,
i just knew justin was going to get shot because he was starting to tell us things when he was with Jin/kate and room 23 guy.
i am glad jin at least attempted to go find sun.
if claire was infected the only time we didnt see her from the explosion was when hurley took her to the back bedroom in dharmaville. miles knew she was different after that.
Per Will: "Right, I agree about the hatch being there in universe A because the bomb didn't go off and in universe B (where they land in LA) the bomb did go off and the island is sunken."
Looks like you are saying in Universe A the bomb does not go off, but the Losties flash to 2007 from 1977. What makes them flash with no bomb?
some thoughts
maybe the open wound makes you more susceptible to smokey's influence. Perhaps that is how locke came to be under mib's spell. From the cut on his face or the gash on his leg from the blastdoor.
Was the christain we saw before claire wandered off smokey or is he just working with smokey?
perhaps the voltage on Dogen's thing was very low but when used with the ash hurt sayid disproportionately because of his infection.
maybe the hard core others can not choose to kill anyone unless it is self defense. So dogen didn't want any deaths on his permanent record. Maybe because of future judgement or maybe just an "island" rule.
was dogen trying to avert jack from taking the poison because he is on the list? What did maybe " he is one of them " mean?
did jacob use taking sayid to the temple as a ruse to get jack and the gang to the temple?
if the broad brushstrokes are the same in the sideways reality. Is ethan still working for some island interest. Ann arbor isn't underwater. Ben also had a lot of support staff off the island like the butcher shop. Jacob must still be alive in the sideways reality in 2004 otherwise locke would be dead and not in a wheelchair.
do the others want to keep everyone away from smokey so that they wont be put under his spell or because they dont want him to impersonate anyone?
i am also starting to think the island didn't sink in 1977.
There didn't seem to be 30 years worth of algae on the statue or the barracks, nothing seemed to show the damage that sinking or and explosion would cause. Maybe the island dink sink. Maybe the hotwired timeflash that juliette prompted transported the island 100 feet under sealevel or set of a volcanic explosion. Ben said moving the island was unpredictable.
I'm with you Amy, Sayid's reactions to the test looked pretty normal to me, i.e., OUCH!!!!
LOL Memphish, that's exactly what I thought about the typewriter! X-D
Great observations Locos. Very helpful!
do we really know who was the leader of the others in 1955. Widmore seemed too young at that point. Murder must be ok if it's to protect other's secrets because young widmore had no problem breaking his buddys neck for trying to tell where the others were. I think the not killling thing is more tied to you never know who is special or important.
was claire, rousseau's island replacement?
did any of you notice in LA X when illana asked who was in charge there was a long pause and then Ben walked out of the foot and richard said "Ben" as if it was a delayed answer to her question
if killing you own father is a prerequisite to leading the others, is there any significance to the fact that in the sideways reality kate did not kill her father(rather she killed the wrong guy) or that sawyer never had the chance to kill his own.
i think they are definitely looking for jacob's replacement. the temple is a lot like a bhuddist temple. The bodi satva test richard seemed to give young locke also seems to point to this. If an important llama dies they look for his reincarnation. So why would it be any different.
we theorized before that the polar bears were trained to turn the donkey wheel, maybe the sharks are also smart enough to turn the wheel in the sideways reality.
dogen implying he was the leader of the temple others seems to show there is a hierarchy of leadership of the others
maybe dogen baseball is from the 2004 world series?
claire's false labor in the sideways reality paralleled the false labor on the island. Aaron's ultrasound was dated octs 22nd 2004. If the sideways reality is basically the same, what of all the people who died in the crash of 815 on the first day. Are those people gonna die in the sideways reality? Is Artz gonna die on the same day he died on the island?
FYI, the world series began 10/23/2004, "tomorrow" in the Flash Sideways!
Dogen Dude has struck out,and he knows it. Baseball as giant worry bead, shows his ulcer. Fascinating..I mean Really Fascinating,,how Reborn Sayid ,,the character of Truth and Honesty,,seems to have the ability to ..foster,,generate,,manifest,,Truth and Honesty from those around him. In his reborn presense, his character transcends to those in the vicinity. I mean,,Lennon and Dogen admitted to lieing…Yes. ..So, from ,,shoot them, Hes dead,, to Poison, 3 strikes,,with a foul ball in there or two like..infection,,and having an interpreter to maintain the mystique of Command. So it is easy (?) to see everything of the Dogen in exact opposite,,if you want to see ..honestly. After all,,this Is Lost. Infection is not infection but there is a change that takes over the heart as one realizes the Truth of Who Am I?..Any God is Not required for that end of conflict. So, the Dogen contemplates. Is the Dogen able to ..understand a Greater Love than the Fear he uses to control with?
Sawyer seems abit unable to grasp it. Jack seems to be on the path to it. Kate definetly is seeing the Karmic ,,what goes around comes around..of the Greater Love aspects and Claire..our ditzy breezy la de da..sure is good with the traps and all in the jungle…her heart changed ..not under the control of Jake and his Dogen..is to heal Jin? Point being..what Dogen says is “ infection” and Blackness is from his perspective,,and that can’t,,if it ever was,,be trusted. The trick is..he knows it. He knows the Truth and where it is…I still wonder if ..when MIB Locke finally shows up at the Temple..if Dogen Dude would be wise enough..to simply invite him in..It just mite save his life.
MEL
Here's my new question. How many bodies can MIB inhabit at once? Is it infinite?
I don't know about most of you guys but I'm getting more confused as S6 progresses...there's seems to be so many contradictions in everyone's actions, and there are big holes in some of the stories (Memphish: I thought the same thing about how Sayid ended up being strapped down. And why is Kate nonchalantly driving around in LA with Claire in a taxi that has to one every cop's radar?)
There also seems to be no rhyme or reason as to what MIB and Jacob and Dogen are up to. At this point I think I just have to trust Darlton to tell a wonderful story and give me a satisfactory conclusion on May 23rd.
AmyL..I would think so also..infinite.
fascinating exploration of truth and honesty's relationship with responsibility and Trust. Maven , it is at this " level" or perspective that season 6 is making its Sense..The going around in cirlces of repetitive experience until they get it right,,one can start feeling the centrifigal force. Jack's i don't trust myself how can I trust you..Kate semi recognition being thru this before..Sawyers ..some of us are meant to be alone..etc etc..are all indications of double entendre reality..two realities going on at same time..Like I joked about earlier..the " real" world reality and the Island reality,,are the same events but seen or reported or written,,each, from another perspective..Even more fascinating..which one is an allegory or analogy or metaphor of the other seems to change also. Which is More Real ..changes and as already posted about by more than a few..is ..the one a viewer is most Invested in..appears the most real...or..kates handcuff experience stretches believability a bit much..yes?..
Hope that helps.
MEL
Good Morning All
At least it was morning when I started this. My computer wouldn't turn on this morning so I'm using my iPhone. I started this once and my battery died lol I hope to get my computer fixed when the roads are clear. So here goes.
memphish
I think Miles may be there because he's a candidate. Bram picked him up on the street to try and stop him from going with Widmore.
Claire's been claimed by whom? When Locke went to the cabin Claire and Christian were both there. Can Smokey represent two people at once? I'm not sure I believe Jacob can clai
people or not. But maybe he claimed Christain or Claire and MIB claimed the other one. Right now on the island Claire has been claimed a d Locke's been claimed. I'm assuming. So to be claimed doesn't mean you are MIB.
The temle others were surprised Sayid was alive. If he had come back to life right away would that have been proof he wasn't claimed?
I'll have to go back and read some more posts and collect my thoughts. This is going to be fun for me today. :)
Well that only took all day to type and trying twice to post. lol Back to catch up.
I don't think the Templothers were surprised that Sayid was alive. Dogen was certainly more annoyed than anything else.
Just Thinking said :
"Looks like you are saying in Universe A the bomb does not go off, but the Losties flash to 2007 from 1977. What makes them flash with no bomb?"
It is my opinion that they flash from 1977 in universe B, where the bomb goes off, to universe A, where it doesn't, in keeping with course correcting to avoid the grandfather paradox. The bomb can't have detonated in the original universe because the destroyed hatch is there from when Desmond turned the key and all that. Also the island isn't under water in universe A (if it was Jughead that made the island sink in universe B).
@Mel...Jack, Kate, Sawyer each take blame for Juliet's death, realizing that each has some responsibility for it. As they take off in different directions I can't help but wonder what to make of live together, die alone.
JT
There's a bomb in both time lines.or maybe I should say the bomb split the time line into two.
2costa
Good point. Is Jacob alive in the sideways flash?
Amy Lynn
I see you asked my question about MIB and if being claimed means being MIB while I was struggling to make a post. :)
AL
I think they were surprised. Lennon said omg when he seen Sayid wake up. At first when Dogen said he was dead I think he was upset whatever he was trying to do didn't work.
Eu,,yea,,Sawyer's must be alone bit needs work or speaks to the Isolation of Instincts..It appears MIB Locke will working that issue soon.
I see MIB Locke, the blackness or infection..all as just the opposite of the words first meaning..The descriptions of evil and bad are " illusions" of the assumed. MIB Locke is good, the blackness or infection is the path to answering the surreal question,, " Who Am I?"..Claire negates those who were about to negate Jin's existence..good..Jin is half of the Star Crossed Lovers,,so its important to keep Love in all this responsibilty, trust, truth and honesty swirling around. Its starting to " feel" like being in a blender,,with all these divergent ingredients and slowly,,the blender will chop everything up and everything will become Unified.
I think if you study or take note of the dialogiue,,you will notice that when in the presense of Reborn Sayid..people can't lie. Jack certainly worked at getting it right,,back to the first hand experience bit from epi 1 &2. What I'm getting at is the words..there is double meaning in just about every bit of dialogue. Its important to pay attention to the dialogues,,and even if possible,, close your eyes and just listen. Thats the easiest way to be transported to where Lost is making sense ,,especially during season 6. Sure view any episode as many times as you want..but I suggest,, trying to just listen to the dialogue without the prejudice of the video,, at least once.
have Fun
MEL
Sometimes I love Lostpedia. Here's a gem from last night's episode: Lindsey Baskum is an anagram for "Used by Malkin"
Well at least we get some anagram fun in Where's Waldo World.
Warning - I get a bit ranty below. Read at your own risk.
I still have no personal investment in the X
universe. Other than deja vu there seems to be no affect of Timeline A where they crashed on the Island etc. on Timeline B where they land. There's no bleed over a la Donnie Darko and no negative psychological impacts a la Dark Tower, just deja vu. I guess you might argue that the deja vu caused Kate to act with compassion toward Claire, but actually that doesn't work either. Fugitive Kate always had a soft spot as we saw with Ray Mullen in Australia and Cassidy back in Iowa. The side flashes are not providing any new information about these people at all.
Some one mentioned a while back about Kate asking Claire if she would believe her if she said she was innocent. I'm not buying this garbage. This is the same thing that drives me insane about Eggtown. It doesn't matter if you kill the wrong person, it matters that you blew someone up. What's more there's all the other people that Kate committed felonies against like the bank in New Mexico and shooting your fellow conspirators and causing your ex-boyfriend's death. As was also said earlier LOST has been way below par on genre elements of the story such as the lawyer and doctor stuff and to me it really cheapens the show.
memphish, I think you're pre-emptive in judging the flash sideways. We've only seen three hours of 18. If there were tons of bleedover this early in the game, people would be up in arms about THAT.
I agree I'm pre-judging, but the show is supposed to be watched hour by hour with a week in between and at this point it's losing me. I want to be fully engaged by each and every episode as I watch them and then in the end be even more surprised by how they tie back in together, not have to wait for the DVD set to be wowed.
As I said, I'm in a pretty negative place about them. I feel doing both the options with the bomb was a narrative cop out. I'll try just to say it here this one last time and leave it alone until next week. Thanks for putting up with my griping LoCos.
I actually like the flash sideways a ton more than I like what's going on in Island time. Maybe that'll change with Claire back in the picture, and my Jin/Sun reunion, which had better be soon.
And yeah, I know you're supposed to wait a week in between each one, but I've always found with LOST that it works MUCH better doing marathons of a whole season a a time.
memphish
I don't mind your gripe at all. I'm pretty much right there wirh you. Why do I want to see the flashbacks again but with slight differences?
I am liking the island story better but it isn't giving much right now either.
Having said that I'm sure TPTB will please me in the end. :)
WOW! Just watched... outstanding! Tine now to read 266 comments!
memphish you are definately allowed to gripe here.
that said i really kind of watch the sideways experience with a lot more focus on the background to see what crosses over. i like seeing artz and frogurt. as far as advancing the story i wonder where it will go. ultimately i have tried to just relax and enjoy the final ride. i accept that there will be things that tick me off, like kate just being able to look at men and they totally ignore that shes in handcuffs. but things that make me laugh like the cab driver from hereos just jumping out of the car and running.
i wonder if the swan clock was venting off the energy from the 1977 jughead expolsion a little bit at a time for 30 years. So when desmond or locke didn't push the button it was converging the sideways reality with the original and the quarantine door got blown to the beach with jughead explosive energy. to go with the inverses, when the swan clock wasnt pushed all the metal was repelled, but when jughead got dropped in the swan all the metal was pulled inward.
Perhaps the swan survived in the sideways reality past 1977 and desmond is the variable. If he didn't come to the island then he doesn't start pushing button for kelvin. Maybe desmond flashing back to when he was in the military changed the timeline and created the sideways timeline. If for instance he decided to ignore hawkings and not go on his race around the world.
Maybe the swan was what was keeping the original timeline intact.
Locke's deafness after the failsafe was turned seems to show that a mini flash was happening without turning the donkey wheel.
Maybe dogen's baseball was supposed to remind us the "game" of it all. A game might have 2 sides,but there might be more teams than 2 in the league.like in baseball claire was claimed off waivers for a roster. Games have rules
Lost internet connection.... glad there's only 266 to catch up on!
Memphish and SD-
I did get that it was Kate used the Joan Hart alias... but didn't we see that Kate got a letter from someone named Joan Hart that told her that her mother was sick? Isn't it still a mystery of who told her that? As soon as the claire/kate pairing and that name came up... I thought, wow, it was Claire who might have wrote that letter, and Kate would know who she was/that she could be trusted b/c of the Alias??? Maybe my memory = very faulty! ;-) Sorry for confusion...
My heart broke for Sawyer... even for Kate in a warped way... i think she loved Sawyer. Know that's unpopular around here...
I'm tentatively hopeful that the poison was for the darkness, not to kill Sayid. It would have killed Jack who was not infected... but not Sayid who was.
Sandman90- good theory on the burial...maybe goes back to the truce, and having to bury those bodies? What about the Dharma mass, unburied grave??? Have they become the claimed "others"? (Ok, that's crazy theory... but hey...)
Memphish--- that time capsule catch ala tom and kate for Sawyer and Juliette's box... great one! And the extra tidbit of another's true love dying and feeling responsible for that death... sigh.
Capcom- I also wonder if we know who the jilted to be adopted mom's husband is...
Lostit- How do you all catch this stuff! The whale!
Ob- I think the temple peeps NEED Sawyer--- not just want to protect him. Every one of Jacob's team is essential in some way. (Not sure of anything beyond that thought)
I don't know if we have any way of knowing that Claire was taken to the Temple/water. Perhaps there are other ways of claiming--- ex Danielle's crew was infected, but we have no notion of the water.. Do we KNOW that Ben has been claimed? All we know is that his innocence was lost...??
Claire--- well... the explosion would have had smoke...???
I got nothing...
i dont think it's a coincidence that claire didn't become the new rousseau until rousseau was killed, actually she wandered off into the jungle pretty soon after that. Sort of like jack(you were dead) didn't become the islands man of faith until locke was dead. Jack had a lockesque look in his eye when he told sayid he had died. I think there are definitely archetypes on the island and new people fill the old roles
or the canidates are reincarnations of old island souls. Rather then there being a "chosen one" there are a "chosen few". I bet sun didn't time flash because she killed colleen in cold blood. It seems like sun and lapidus may already be on team flocke. Maybe they are infected already
the book hugo saw in the cave was a kieregard book about abrahams dilema of sacrificing his son for god. I wonder if the christain/jack thing is the same thing. In the bible ben is the son of jacob, i wonder if jacob sacrificed his symbolic son in ben linus. If you think about it, if there is going to be a replacement for Jacob, ben seems like the obvious choice. I don't know of anyone else that could keep all the threads of his master plan together like Ben could or hatch new complicated plans. Jacob seemed pretty cold and calculating when he let sayid's lady get hit by a car or locke fall out the window. Im not convinced that jacob and the others are "good" and that mib is "evil".
Dang it didn't post again. Trying again.
TOL
Ok now I know what letter you're talking about. I had always thought she had her mail sent/forwarded to herself under that alias. But it's a good question who would have known her alias to send her mail? Why would she be in contact with someone while on the run? It wasn't Tom was it?
I thought we had concluded it was Cassidy sending Kate mail and money.
memphish
I never thought her. It makes since.
I was just thinking about MIB's relationship to Ben and Locke. The whole bit about John seeing the smoke monster way back in Season 1 led to his belief that the Island was mystical and wonderful, when it turns out the smoke monster probably left him alive because it new it could use him later. And Ben seeing his dead daughter, it was just Flocke manipulating him, how's that for irony? Ben's usually the one being manipulated, but the whole water draining thing, Ben thinking he was controlling the monster, it looks like it was all just an act to manipulate Ben! Hahaha I love it! This show has the best irony, Sayid getting torchered, Charlie finding the stash of cocaine, Ben, the biggest manipulator in the universe, being tricked, etc.
Ooops, typo, where I said "Ben's usually the one being manipulated, but the whole water draining thing, Ben thinking he was controlling the monster, it looks like it was all just an act to manipulate Ben!"
It should say "Ben's usually the one doing the manipulating..."
So..Jack asks Dogen , where is he from. The Dogen says something to the effect of..same place as you..Classic obfuscating Dornfinkle and I can’t drive 55! Same place as you..suggests not a place tangible, but a place etheral as in ,,inbetween the ears. So,,same place as origin, suggests a same place as end.
And what finally brought Free Will, Kate to tears? Seeing Instincts Sawyer finally brought to tears of caring after accepting responsibility??..or.. the defeat of Sawyer? Maybe it was realizing her part in the end of Julie..maybe Sawyer deciding to be alone for the rest of his time..maybe all of it rolled into one ?..It was good to see that she decided to do the opposite of Sawyer,,and stayed with Claire at the hospital,,even at her free will risk. Perhaps Claire will pay back by helping Jin out. Is anybody else starting to see the Karma go around here?. Interwoven Island and Real realities where helping each other out slowly weaves these two realities into one?? And yes,,Sawyer would be a difficult one to get into the multi space cross functional “ Kum By Ya” .
TPTB said it would slowly become obvious whats going on ..Seems to me,,its begun. Its almost like a fugue..Thematic juxtapositions in space and time interweave and eventually create a climatic unison. I listen forward to Michael G’s final musical piece..
MEL
Just a quick word on something I have seen here and heard on Jay and Jack...
Scoutpost said up above, something about the vaccine being given to claire...
Jay and Jack pondered if Claire had ever been exposed to the water...
Well I was wondering if maybe the Vaccine is the water, Degon reffered to the water no longer being clear and the vaccine was clear as well. What if the others drink the water, but didn't tell the Dharma folk that was what they did, so they wouldn't go looking for the spring. So they introduced it to the Dharma folks as a med they had to take. Then after the purge, anyone left was still taking the med. Kelvin, then of course Desmond, but maybe they were giving Claire the vaccine because being preggers made her more able to be claimed. They really were trying to save her and her baby, but she escaped.
Just my two cents.
remember ethan gave claire a drink of water from his canteen and she remarked that it was bitter. perhaps the bottled water and spring water at the caves protected them.
i thought dogen may have been coderizing sayid's wound.
before ben sent everyone to the temple there was something in his journal about drinking water, around the time h took locke to mib's cabin.
i wonder if being on the island during the incident is what put horace in that weird timeloop dream that locke had?
if mib/smokey is bound by the volcanic ash, then perhaps he wanted the island sunken. Then he would no longer be confined to the island???
MEL and SG- Cassidy is just as reasonable, maybe even more. I thought I had had an epiphany ;-) but perhaps not!
Ded- I think I'm with you on the vaccine being related to either the water- or perhaps the pill (poison) they wanted to give Sayid. Just like a vaccine- its a form of the illness- but builds your immunity? or a med, that without a sickness would make me sick (ex. I don't need low blood pressure meds, and would get sick if taking them)... but with a sickness (LBP), would cure me? More questions than answers for me.
2costa- good call on Ethan giving claire a drink....
and the drinking water! wow!
Wow. I liked this ep. For those who had a problem with this episode taking 60 minutes only to tell one or two things, consider that there is larger story to tell, characters arcs to position and important beats to hit that might not be as sensationalistic as you would prefer, but are important to tell nonetheless. There is an overall story to be told at it's own pace and I 'd rather see that served than be pandered to. I've never felt that every episode needed to be as 'big' as every other ep, so long as it served the overall story. I feel like this ep served to move key characters into place, while also advancing their emotional stakes/motivations in the story.
Personally, I really like the flash sideways timeline. I want to see how things 'could' have been. I want to see how and why the characters are linked/connected regardless of what time line they are in.
I do not , however, want to see another gratuitous shot of Arzt or Frogurt. Every time I see them I wonder to myself, " What , they couldn't get one of the "A" cast to make a cameo?"
Wouldn't mind seeing more of Cassie Barsb- I mean Cindy, though!
So maybe Claire has been claimed by Rousseau. How the heck else does a goth piercing girl know how to build booby traps?
@memphish... three years is a long time... I'm sure one can learn.
Is it 3 or 30 years?
Three. Claire disappeared in 2004, it's now 2007.
So you think Claire didn't flash?
Or did she flash both times?
I think she didn't. There's no evidence that the Templars flashed, and Christian didn't flash (we saw him with Sun in 2007).
But we also saw Christian in ancient times with Locke in the donkey wheel area.
We don't actually have any idea when that took place, I don't think. I could be wrong, but I think we saw the statue before the final two flashes.
It's not that important a point, but at least per Lostpedia (and my feeble memory) the last flash was in statue times. Then Locke meets with Christian, turns the wheel, and Sawyer's group ends up in 1974.
When Locke meets Christian in the FDW caverns it is in the past. One flash after Locke descends into the well, Sawyer is left holding the rope which just goes into the earth, the well has gone. In LaFluer, we see Miles pointing out the Statue in the distance. They only flash one more time after this, when Locke turns the wheel, to 1974.
LostIt - I think it was his reaction saying "I have no secrets..."
I thought that was a perfectly normal thing for him to say. Given his background, whenever he tortured someone it was to gain information. He assumed that since he believed he was being tortured, that the Others must want information, but he didn't have any info to share - thus "I have no secrets".
You beat me to it Memphish :)
Midday..yea such is the nature of story telling,,but this episode does more than even positioning characters,,imho..It establishes major constructs of the season 6 and thus big picture.
There is definite linkage between the two realities presented. Kate's deja vueness not only links to the season one and season 2( pre blast) reality ..but think about it and you'll see that also means a linkage between supposed " real" and the fantastical Island reality That linkage is easy seen in the Claire...the ditzy..la de da..somewhere else character,,IS the Linkage..and even more beautiful is that FREE WILL Kate finds her in one reality and brings her to us in the other.. ..linkage. Freekin AWESOME in the SURREAl...Major metaphor there!
Another awesome manifestation is Sayid..mr Honesty.. truth..heck, majority of his dialogue in this episode is what..C'mon think about it..is in the form of Questions..whot happened..where have I been.. why are you doing this to me..?? Yet..amazingly..those around him seemed only to be able to tell the truth.. even Jack goes back and corrects a half truth or clarifies himself.. So Sayid,,has an Influence now on other characters.. Before.. he just told the truth and every one still said or did what they wanted to...now..every one tells the truth when in his presence...thats a major expansion of concept of what Is Going On With Lost.
as posted before..Dogen is exposed as a liar, and well.. we already knew life was cheap to him when he said " shoot them"..so killing Sayid wasn't new except he , Dogen ,is the one who said that Jacob said,,if he dies we are all in trouble...So much for the Dogen, Jacob relationship. That little item could go either way. I'm hoping he opens his mind a bit and saves himself as a result. I suspect the Dogen knows that the game is over for him tho.
What else..Sawyer needs to be massaged in to understanding he has value and merit to the " group". The unification requires him as well ,to be whole. And Jin needs some nursing now too. Enter booby trap maker Claire.. he heheee.. Claire as the booby trap maker in the jungle..Fantastic!..la de da..
So,, not real clear but starting to form out of the fog of confusion or the black cloud of Mystery, the Unknown.. is the linkage of..Jack backs off the booze and " crash" mentality..finds enough Humanity to extend Help to John Locke,,which gives Free Will a positive reward for ..staying FREE..which brings Free Will to the La de Da Claire,,in need of some Help herself..which Free Will extends to the ditzy one,, and now is positioned to extend by Karmic Virtue Help to Jin..which she has already done a big part of on the Island. Again crossing the Space between the two realities presented is a bridge developing out of the fog bank.
The point of all this,, as if everything I 've posted isn't enough..the Point is.. The Magic.. the Beauty.. The Magnificent..is Blossoming like a Roman Candle Fireworks Show in the nite sky. Since we're only on the 3 rd episode..Holy COW!! What is to Come!!??
I am positioned for a great show and don't want to miss any of it.
MEL
Mungonna,
I like your enthusiasm for the show.
Eventually the writers are going to move their story along to it's conclusion.I prefer to enjoy the ride along the way,taking it all in.
I love all the dicsussions,and theories here
also,because it is easy to miss something with just two eyes.
@TAV: I'm with you...I completely trust Damon and Carlton to tell the story the way they want to and by May 23rd things will make sense in the big picture (as Lost fans we will never be satisfied with the little stuff unresolved). It's still fun to try to make sense of things and, as always, you guys always see something I've missed. I'm buckled in for a beautiful ride for 15 more hours!
Only 15 more hours?
That sounds so.... wow....
I agree TPTB will satisfy me in the end too. I don't expect every episode to be exciting. But I would like some information that isn't obvious and has some significance.
I didn't mind FB and FF because they had significance. So far I can't see any in the FS. I know they will eventually show us and I'll probably like it. But for now I don't care. Maybe next weeks episode will give me what I'm looking for. :)
Well TaV et al.. thats the difference..I Am Satisfied Now..I've been satisfied with Darltons work ,, without major and mostly minor questions and frustrations since the get go. If you feel I'm bragging about it.. then you are missing what Jack does for John and Kate does for Claire of season 6..they extend themselves to help out their mystic Lostie partners..Are you sayin I shouldn't extend to those here,, what I see as beautiful and fulfilling? I shouldn't extend myself here in an effort to illuminate the Fantastic, the Magnificent..to bring happiness and understanding rather than just leave my fellow Lost Fans in confused and unfulfilled state?..Being Fulfilled Now,,takes all the fun out of the show??..how would you know? Being fulfilled Now some how makes it less Beautiful or Magnificent?
I am not denying or arguing with anybody. I am not fighting with anybody. So,..like Sayid, I have to ask..Why the missive? Whats your point? Open my eyes.
MEL
Mungonna/MEL ... Agree with you : this ep did more than simply positioning characters. I enjoyed the story they had to tell us, even if it wasnt a sensationalistic plot-mover of an episode. We needed to see where Kate and Sawyer are now( and not simply regarding their relationship with one another.
And yes, absolutely, the threads between the two timelines/realities are crucially important and increasingly intriguing, to me at least.
Interesting , your point about Sayid, and how he is bringing out the truth in those around him. That works well for me now - my interest is piqued. But I do look forward to seeing his story/role played out, regardless of those around him.
Why am I still feeling so confused when the series is going to be over in a few months?! I was really hoping to be having some very satisfying moments of revelation about right now but that's not happening. Am I asking for too much to wish for at least a few minutes of honesty and exposition from Dogen?
Good to read your comments again 2costa. And I like your thoughts about fathers.
Sometimes I think that the only reason that the temple others want to protect the Losties is so they won't have to worry about more infected peeps running around to deal with, and keeping them cooped up at hand is much easier. I'm not convinced that they actually care, but maybe they do because of The Ankh List.
Per Will:
"It is my opinion that they flash from 1977 in universe B, where the bomb goes off, to universe A, where it doesn't,..."
I think you then still have the problem of Sawyer putting the ring in Universe B and finding it in Universe A 30 years later.
Per SG:
"JT
There's a bomb in both time lines.or maybe I should say the bomb split the time line into two."
That may be-but if there is a bomb in both it won't allow Will's idea that the bomb in one sank the island and the lack of bomb in the other allowed the hatch to be built and so on.
We had such long discussions about alternate timelines at LP, and how the writers said they did not want to devalue the importance of cause and effect- how they wanted the results of actions to have real meaning and not just be changeable sometime else.
I may just suspend analyzing and watch. Right now, any "other" story has a problem to me in that if it changes what we have already seen, then what we've seen is less important. And if it doesn't affect our original story- it doesn't mean much.
Oh- and OT- if you think you were in the first 108 at LU, check your LU email via the disc & bluray. they've sent notification. Heard about it at ARGS and was sooo happy to finally be fast enough to achieve one ARG goal. Trying to get a poster in the end was futile.
thanx capcom i enjoy your comments too.
I'm hoping that ben is alive in the sideways reality. Either by jacob saving him or someone slipping him on the sub. It's possible that if you live through the spring, you are changed. Perhaps the key to not aging or fast healing. So maybe the island sinking wouldn't really faze someone like jacob. By the shape of the barracks and the statue and the sonic fence under the water, the island either sunk very slowly or it was warped underwater by the timeflash/slash island moving. So it's possible that we find out what happened right after jughead/julliette or whenever the island was put underwater. I almost think that thinking that the island exploded and sunk is the classic lost misdirection. Ben said moving the island was highly unpredictable and only the measure of last resort. For instance if the island flashed to a time/place that had a differn't sealevel
just thinking the ring is not a problem because both timelines share the same timeline before 1977. they only split off into 2 after the ring was put there. The original 815'ers would never displace the actual people that lived the alt timeline because then they would leave the people that lived the sidways timeline without a timeline. To me it makes complete sense that the 2007'ers went back to their original timeline where they belonged. Where the island still existed, if that reality ceased to exist the sideways timeline would have a fatal paradox, because the originals need a swan and island above water to create the sideways timeline.
for example if in 2007 on the island someone got the orchid working again and went back and blew up jughead in 1955, both timelines we are seeing would cease to exist.
Re: your misdirection of the sunken island idea 2costa, Greg Tramel was just mentioning something like that too, that maybe it's the volcano that sinks the island, And I thought that would be just what you said, typical of TPTB to let us think that the bomb/energy did it, but then made the volcano do it. Not that I think that's what will happen, but it would be a "funny" on us if it did. It would also give more meaning to the blatant schoolhouse lesson on volcanos too, although it would not be unusual to be teaching about volcanos when you live on one, but of all the crazy topics that the hippie DIs would be teaching their kids, that struck me as a flag waver.
JT
I agree there is probably only one bomb. The bomb sunk the island and split the time line where one group time traveled.
Also I've expressing my opinion of episode 3 it was an ok episode not great and not awful. I know everyone doesn't like e every episode. Some we like more than others and we don't all like each episode equally. This doesn't effect how I feel about the show as a whole.
Wahoo! I'm getting a diploma, too!
Congrats JT and Amy!
Midday..Yes, Sayids arc..that will be something to watch transpire. How do you end the characters story? What redemption is there for a character who has been honest and truthful on the Island at least,,and now evokes it out of others.? A Love partner to replace Nadia would be good. as in..You have bad morning mouth..Oh yea! well you have stinky Body Order! go take a bath!!
MEL
2 costa
I think your idea of a misdirection of how the island sunk is very likely.
Agreed SG, I still love Lost, no matter how frustrating it is. Lost could never be for me like Heroes is...i.e., I can't follow the storylines, but love the way it looks, and a few of the characters, that's all I watch it for.
Mel,
I was agreeing with you,and I am happy with the way things are going.
I just wish that all of us could appreciate Lost,for what it is.
Enjoy it now; don't wait till it's over.
Thank you Capcom.
Oh- 2 costa- you wouldn't believe how those threads went round and round!
I'm just saying the ring will be a problem in the Will's scenario if I have it right. He said the Losties are coming from the B Universe- so I thought he meant as he said before, they jumped to B from 07 and 04, set off the bomb there, and then jumped back to A. I don't think anyone said they were displacing the B Losties.
That would be fine, as long as nothing they did from 74 to 77 had any effect on the A Universe that we could see, but we see the ring, so that doesn't make sense.
i just had a lost breakthrough of sorts. We have all been wondering if christain was a ghost or just smokey and just like the season premiere the answer if both. When miles was asked by hurley about his powers he said he doesn't just see the person there it's more of a feeling. When "christain" was sitting by the fire with claire miles saw him too. We chocked it up to miles sees dead people but not like that. This was obviously smokey not christain because everyone can see him when he takes on a human form i.e. flocke. Ghosts on the island can't touch things. Jacob needs hurley to do everything for him. Christain at the fire with claire was holding aaron. Another strong indicator that was smokey and claire was like his apprentice. In the cabin it was also smokey with claire. Being allegiant to smokey and him taking your form are two different things. The christain that appeared to locke in at the FDW was ghost christain. He couldn't touch locke or help him get up he just had to give him a pep talk. So the question becomes when was it real christiain or smokey other times where it's not clear if he can touch stuff.
Interesting 2costa.
Now your scenario is different 2 costa. You have :the A Losties went back to 04 through 07, did stuff there, and then and new timeline split off when the bomb exploded. That is the WHH timeline for A- where the Losties always did whatever it was that makes the plane crash, and nothing changes from what we have seen so far. Timeline B can go off and do whatever it wants, minus our Timeline A Losties. And yes, Sawyer will find the ring as his putting it there was part of both timeline A&B until 1977.
Is that what you are thinking?
I don't think the bomb sank the island either, and I don't see how either of those scenarios is going to lead to a satisfying conclusion for Lost- still looking to see how are tied A&B are tied together.
I should've taken notes as I read this, address some specific people's thoughts XD But rest assured I took it all in.
I think Darlton were well aware that the flash sideways would be alienating to some people. Personally I'm willing to be patient and wait for the context; I'm still convinced that we haven't seen the events leading to that reality yet. Obviously more frustrating to see it backwards if that's the case, but flashbacks and forwards chafed a bit too - hang in there and see where it's headed. (Telling MYSELF this too.)
Dogen's baseball: remember the test Richard gave Locke? Is there a possibility that Dogen's baseball belongs to someone else? We've had at least one time-traveling item of significance (the compass). I think I need to watch the Richard/Locke scene AGAIN - another possible new interpretation is working.
On poison - wondered at the time if Dogen meant it was poison for JACK. I initially thought that the pill contained ash, and swallowing it might exorcise err . . . Smokeyness? Makes Sayid sound like bacon :P If so then maybe they have other reasons for wanting Jack to stay in the Temple. Not sure.
Is anyone still interested in the possibility of there being more than one Smoke Monster? I'm not sure that its actions are completely consistent. I'm still considering that . . . but why he's lurking in the catacombs under the Temple is still pretty mysterious. If the Others there are on Team Jacob, why is his enemy living under their sanctuary, with Jacob living elsewhere?
Of course that may come down also to analyzing how there wound up being two separate chains of command, with Ben off doing his own thing in New Otherton that whole time.
Does anyone speak Japanese? I know some, but I wouldn't put my translations forth as gospel. I'm willing to translate the bits that aren't translated or aren't fully translated, but want to check there's not someone better :P Well maybe it's translated elsewhere online already, probably?
2costa: I am very with you on the games/archetypes line of thought. We've seen those themes from the VERY beginning, and I've strongly had the feeling that instead of "losing" pieces in this chess game, they're replaced with new ones. Certain comments that indicate a recursiveness/repetition to this "war" lead me even further that way. We HAVE seen the Abraham theme come up before - Locke tells the story to Boone, "that's why it's called sacrifice". There was some line in LA X exchange too, forget it at the moment.
That was long. *scuttles back under rock*
Tav..Pardon me for my mis read of your post. I can only hope to be of service and fun here.
MEL
I think because the ring was hidden in a time line on the island it will be there. In the other time line where the plane lands they were never on the island because the time line was reset.
I thought Daminicus and Provolone said that they were thru with Time Traveling..so why is folks still with it? I agree, its not about two timelines any more. Its about two seperate Spaces now., Exterior reality and Interior reality at the same time..Same events seen from two different perspectives..
Sawyer isolating himself from the Losties group Is just a survival Instinct. To stay with the Losties means eventually being a part of a unified Whole. So you can see why Instinct Sawyer don't want to play that. Its the death of him...which scares him worst than the reborn of it does. There is a Hokie to his story. " I was going to ask her to marry me"..sure sounds like the I only care about myself Sawyer was already dead..So how is it that he can abandon that and rejuvenate his " alone " stance so quick? That he Hadn't asked her to marry him..says as much as well..No..The I only care about myself Sawyer wasn't quite dead after all...imho. To say that he convinced Julie to stay with him just so he wouldn't be alone..is an awful confession to make..It had been all along just..all about him..Such is animal Instincts. I suppose , that in its self was enough to bring Kate to tears.
MEL
Congrats to the 108 LUers!
Mel, your perspective is really interesting as always. But Sayid as Truth, I dunno. People can lie around him. Lennon does, telling him that he has passed the test.
I think the 1977 Losties remain in the same timeline. By setting off the bomb in their 1977 reality, they negated the effects of the massive electromagnetic buildup at the Swan and thus created the need for the Swan to forevermore act as a pressure valve, continually releasing the energy build up every 108 minutes. They truly did bring themselves to the Island.
Some random thoughts on Episode 3 here:
A New Hope
The more I think about it the more it seems like-"We're going to have to watch that again" and "See you in another life brotha." may be the keys.
Universe B is the next go round, and we are seeing in Universe A what will make it possible. If the island is sunk after Dharma times in B, we will see in A how that might have come about in B- what might the mechanism have been.
Desmond is special because he can see across iterations- he is not seeing possible futures, he is seeing other actual go rounds.
Universe B will hopefully be the one where our Losties find redemtion. Maybe Locke went on a handicapped version of the Walkabout- I looked at some point and saw that there are such things. Charlie is bitter, but he did not die. Once he goes through rehab, maybe he will be able to live, rather than being doomed to die to save us all.
There is the tie from A to B, if the Losties at the end of A have moved forward enough (in the game?) they will get it right in B. And from a storytelling point of view, we are seeing cause and effect together. Also, within each Universe WHH still holds.
I guess this is kind of what you are saying with the raindrops Future, although I am seeing more one affecting the next- so there is a next.
Sorry-it was a wake up and have write it down thought. It still allows your speculation too I think MEL- just gives it more of a framework.
Well I've managed to watch the episode now and my initial recation is get on with the answers already, I don't need more questions.
That being said it is a true LOST fans dream to see the alternate play out and recognise all of the little nuances. Who else is going to recognise a stuffed whale from two seasons ago.
Sayid didn't seem himself to me, or at least not the hard bitten, torturer version of himself that would have laughed in the face of a small electric shock.
My thoughts on the X universe events is that we know the island is not accessible / sunk. That says to me that maybe the alternate timeline / universe will end up being the one where the Losties ultimately have a nice life but mankind is destroyed, and only the island and it's special properties can save mankind.
Somehow I can't see that story going on to see the end of life as we know it, unless it is a very quick end in 2007 ! Maybe smokie will have gotten out and is about to go on a global rampage.
Wow LoCos...great ideas and comments. This season sure has us ruminating, huh?
I think the 2004 we are seeing is what would have happened had Desmond not made O815 crash. That's all. No deja vu, just what would have happened without the system failure of the Swan hatch. Of course, WE are all having deja vu when we see something familiar (which is not techinically deja vu because we've actually seen it before, and are recognizing it), but I think we are reading the recognition into the actor's face, not seeing a real moment of deja vu for them.
@Zort, you're right: I love all the little nuances they are throwing in for us rabid fans (the whale, zombies, no sense of humor...)
since it seems I'm the only one here for now...
here's my jumbled thoughts on a few things:
-the water in the temple was murky, which surprised the Templers, but they didn't know Jacob was in danger much less dead so they were only curious about it...Dogen's cut wasn't enough to make him infected, you gotta be dead to get infected. (Does that mean Montand died from his arm being ripped off? But if you gotta be dead, then how did the rest of the French team get infected?) Anyway, I agree that the buried/unburied aspect is important somehow...is it the dirt that keeps the infection away? (Was Alex buried?)
I remember back a few seasons when we were speculating what would have happened to our Losties if the plane had never crashed...would any of our friends have found each other without the Island thrusting them together? I think of Jate and Skate, naturally, but also Hurley/Charlie, or Charlie/Claire, Boone/Locke, and what of Juliet/Sawyer? I am really looking forward to Juliet and Sawyer going out for coffee (and going dutch!). I wonder how they will meet? (So far we've seen Kate/Claire, and a little Boone/Locke, even Locke/Jack...
Geesh..Sawyer conning Julie..that would be interesting..wait a minute,,he already did that.
Jt..on Sayids transcending truth..sure,Lennon and Dogen tell Sayid that he passed the test,,then as he is escorted out Lennon says,,did I just tell him a lie,,and Dogen replies,, Yes. Interesting how the Grand Idea of Course Correction has been reduced to the level of personal application. Jack also corrects what he had said earlier to Sayid about ..i didn’t shoot you but its my fault ,,was it?..It was kinda neat how Truth/Honesty weaved into the Kate/Claire escapade. As ditzy as Claire is..the Kate comes across as quite admirable in “ being There “ for Claire when the Truth hits the fan. Seems to me that there is a kharma pay back with Claire not ratting Kate out when the Law comes looking for Kate. But its more than a Kharma debt..Kate just was honest enough with the situation to realize Claire, the poor girl,,needed help…was basically in denial of what was going on with the adoption situation…Like Jack did to John, Kate extended herself, at her own risk,,and held Claires hand thru the trauma of it all…Perhaps there is aTruth ,..what it is to be a Human Being..,a bit larger that just telling the truth.
MEL
no no no mungonna...Sawyer not conning Julie...but finding his true love without the Island's intervention.
Sigh..I guess I'm a hopeless romantic. Out of all the 'ships we've seen, I think theirs is the one I would choose to be destiny in every reality. (Oh and Desmond/Penny, Charlie/Hurley).
Dogen said he had been brought to the island like everyone else. MIB says he wants to home. Maybe It's as simple as that. He wants to go back to where ever he came from before Jacob brought him to the island.
Is MIB Jacob's captive too? hmm never thought of that...
Amused2BeHere
I got the feeling that Juliet was time traveling when she was talking about going for coffee. That's why she said it worked.
Although Sawyer did seem to be following Hurley. :)
Maybe he's only conning men in this time line. :)
Amused
I don't know if he is, but I think it's a possibility. If I were a shipper my favorite couple other than Des & Pen would be Sawyer & Juliet. :)
Agreed, SG. As Juliet was passing from one realm to the next she seemed to be able to see the parallel worlds, so she said it worked, and I think the words she said to Sawyer will be the ones she says to him when they finally meet in the sideways flash "We should get coffee...we could go dutch."
I'm not sure Sawyer is a con man here. He helped Kate, but maybe for different reasons. I don't think conman Sawyer would have warned Hugo about being so open with his lottery winning status, he'd have composed a con right there to worm his way in (or maybe that was the con..hmm).
I'm going with Sawyer is still a con man, but doesn't try to con Hurley. Darlton said the archetypes will not change in the F-Sideways.
Perhaps MIB and Jacob are marooned on the island also? Came out the wrong end of a wormhhole and can't find their way back? Then Jacob is OK with staying awhile- perhaps to play out his game of progress, but MIB just wants to get off the island and go home. When they do, perhaps that will be the end of the island,and of the iterations. It is tied to their being on it somehow.
Morning all!
@SG: Like your idea that MIB might have also been lured to the island like the Black Rock and maybe people like Dogen by Jacob. And he's just tired of all the games Jacob plays in manipulating people in the name of progress. He's learned the art of manipulation from the best of them...Jacob...and used it to find the loophole so he can go home.
Also, would like to think that Juliet was time-tripping and she and Sawyer will share that coffee somewhere/sometime.
morning, maven! Thanks for the confirmation that somebody on the West Coast is awake.
@Amy Lynn: I always feel like I'm late to the party! Having morning coffee and catching up! :)
@maven, can you drop by Eric Tan's house and see if he's up yet?
the significance of the new sideways reality is that unlike the previous ones or the original timeline this one will not have a do-over/timeloop option because the orchid/exotic matter and jughead are under water. So what ever happens in the sideways reality will stick for good. Unless they harness some off island mental timetravel like dan and his rat eloise.
just thinking that was what i meant
anne i also think that there may be more then one smoke monster or maybe jacob had smoke monster like powers. It's fishy that yemmy and flocke never just turn into the smoke monster they always duck out and reappear as smokey.
something still bothers me about jacobs cabin. Last season when flocke was grilling ben about the cabin incident it made me think. Why is smokey so curious what ben's motivation was at the cabin. I think it's because smokey is trying to see how much of his plan Ben really knows about. The fact that the temple others freak when they heard jacob was dead, seems to show ben knew jacob wasn't a ghost, besides ben would have to know that a ghost jacob couldn't throw him up against the wall and all that stuff. Ben played it off seemlessly, so flocke was curious how ben could play it off so good with him if in the cabin if he had no idea what smokey was up too. The only thing i could think is that jacob was known to astrally project himself to the cabin at times. Ben had to know it wasn't jacob saying help me to locke. I'm curious to see if hawkings or widmore ever got their audience with jacob when they were the leader. The way ben was ready to feed richard to smokey just makes me think Ben is just playing dumb at the moment.
Another thing is the way richard doesn't know who is flocke, until he mentions the chains, makes me think that smokey is more a tool that a few beings on the island can use. Richard knew flocke wasn't a ghost, so he had to assume it was smokey. So he just didn;t know who was controlling smokey.
If smokey used to be bound by certain parts of the island, i wonder how smokey made it over to hydra island to assume his identity as flocke after the ajira plane?
obviously killing jacob was only the beginning of flockes plan, that's why he is still on a mission after he took richard. He probably can't kill richard himself.
i think that it is odd that the sonic fence repels smokey if he is magical. makes me think smokey is more machine then we know. I think that the dogen test was like the sonic fence. He may have been sending a frequency of microwaves into sayid. It probably wouldn't hurt non infected person. Perhaps the fact sayid would feel any pain at all was a dead giveaway he had failed.
i also was thinking the way smokey killed bram was a loophole in his power. In jacob's case Ben was the rock he dropped from the ceiling. Thats why its importaqnt to have open air above the temple or an ash circle or else smokey can influence what lies in the circle. Its really a metaphor for how smokey or jacob for that matter skirt the free will thing on the island. They try to manipulate things right outside the proverbial ash circle(rules) to change the outcome inside the circle.
Good Morning maven
The kids went back to school today so I hijacked my daughter's laptop (with permission) until my computer is fixed. It's taking a little getting use to. I keep reaching for a mouse. :)
2cosa
You've got me thinking. Frank and Sun see Smokey at the dock on the main island.. Also Christain is on the main island and Smokey seems to be floating around outside the door when Christain is talking to them.
At the same time MIB/fLocke is on Hydra island talking to Ceasar. There's something more to Smokey than fLocke being him. Either MIB lied about being the Smoke Monster or there's more than one or Jacob can take the form of the dead too. Or, Or, Or, :)
2costa- I agree with you about the last time do over-awhile back I also said "last chance to get it right?" about the island being gone.
I think we're making some pretty big assumptions here: a) that Christian is Smokey, and b) that everyone who is "claimed" has been claimed by the MIB.
What if Christian was also claimed, and that claiming is being done by some other entity, something higher than either Jacob or the Man in Black?
If Rousseau had been claimed by the MIB, why would she have been worried about Smokey? If MIB could inhabit/claim people, why not just use one of his zombie-slaves to kill Jacob? or convince someone else to kill him?
What reason would a Smokey-Christian have had for helping Locke off the island? Are we really assuming he would know that Ben would kill him and bring the dead body back to the island so MIB could inhabit it?
I'm not necessarily down with the idea of throwing a third demi-god into the mix so late in the game, but the MIB-as-claimant theory doesn't quite feel right.
One more theory about the "sickness": Maybe Rousseau was the only one on her team to get "sick" and she just killed everyone else because she convinced herself that THEY were the sick ones, not her.
So..whats going on here in Lost? At the very generalist,,very bottom line,,foundation,,Change is being dealt with. One way to see Jacob and MIB is jake as the Status Quo,,and MIB as Change,,something different. If there is to be redemption for these wayward Losties,,Change is required..yes? No?
So, change heavily suggests not repeating the past ( season 5’s exploration) therefore change is Creating a future. If your future simply repeats the past then there is no change,,no creating. There has been some understanding of that,,by the Lost characters. Jack finds some “ bedside manner” and offers help to wheelchair bound John Locke…Change….Kate slows her escape to freedom by spending some time and energy with the forlorn Claire. Both are examples of some degree of change, ,,redemption,,creating a new future by not repeating the past. Sawyer as an example of repeating the past..returning to his “ alone “ status is unfortunate and demonstrates the difficulty of change…Its easier not to change, especially if one is pre-disposed not to change.
Dogen and the Temple-iestas are not for change. I mean “ shoot them” to the new arrivals is their reaction and says as much as their clothes they wear,,as to Change. ..they don’t. So it is no wonder that they refer to any thing to do with changes,,as a infection,,or a Blackness. The Dogen knows this about himself and his flock.. he has to be concerned about the inevitable coming his way..Change. maybe the very fact that he chooses to embrace it will be his redemption..Maybe there is no redemption of the Dogen.
Change also infers a different way of seeing things. Determining Illusion from Real is of value when it comes to repeating the past or not…Fascinating example of Illusion was rite there with Dogen admitting to using a foreign Language, in order to camouflage, a way to getting people to do what they may not really want to. If Dogen is smart enough to enforce that ,,then he is smart enough to figure out a way to survive the upcoming …request to change. If he knowingly uses language to put up an Illusion,, how can he deny the illusion of Infection and Blackness? How cool would it be to see Dogen in a 3 piece pin stripe suit?..and a hair cut?
MEL
pin stripes...haircut...LOL
and with a Texas accent!
Amy Lynn- I had the same thoughts about the pill. Its medicine if you are sick, poison if you are not. I also wondered if it might be ash in capsule form!
MEL? (I think) I hope Sawyer's isolation, rather than "I only care for myself" might just be a reflection of how he dealt with the loss of his parents: To decide to be alone, not love, etc. He took a chance at Juliette- he says it was for selfish reasons, but perhaps not...perhaps that's a defense he's used to- because of guilt or fear. He doesn't see that she also chose him and loved him. That's too hard to accept. If so, I hope it has a beautiful redemption! Wanna make a parrallel that Hugo is his counterpart... we see Hurley saying he's lucky, perhaps James is now saying "Something bad happens to everyone I love. I"m cursed."????
(I'm torn between if Sawyer was conning him, or being nice!)
I wish I could track you all a little better on ATLs, FBs and FF.... but I'm just enjoying that part of it without too much analysis. I can barely get my head around the character's links, and what seem to be very significant events/lessons,etc...
No, no haircut and no Texas accent (nothing against Texans) A pin striped suit might not be to bad. :)
TOL..I think the hook that Sawyer is going to get caught on, ( MIB being the Fisherman) is that the 3 years with Julie was pretty neat. Taken to the point of ..I was going to ask her to marry me..was a real place..Love..Somehow MIB has to get Sawyer to understand that perhaps that state of mind, LOVE, was/ is more important than perhaps Julie. With that " purpose" instilled in Sawyer, he can re-join the Losties with no fear in his heart. Saying that ,Sawyer seems closer to the frustrated old Locke,,when Eko had to remind him that he needed Purpose.
I have to admit that the actor playing Dogen is doing Great imho. What a choice role to play!!.. A dogmatic leader who is witnessing the crumbling all around him of his dogma. The slitest wiff of Sympathy has been evoked. I hope there is an arc to the Dogen character and not a quick end. Something like being the recipient of Jins Rolex seems surreally appropro. Anything will do..Hes a great actor fun to watch. That he turns on the English when discussing things with Jack..not only shows a respect and recognition of importance or Honor, with Jack,,but shows he acts very well in " English " too. If he was to spring a Texan accent,, I will send Mondo Man and Coo Coo for Coco Puffs guy the dry cleaning bill for my soiled pants.
MEL
My take on it (that's probably just rehashing what other people already said, I'm so late stopping by).
Sawyer originally got together with Juliet because he didn't want to be alone. Which was selfish. But over time he honestly fell in love with her - and uninterrupted would have continued a pattern of growth and eventually asked her to marry him.
But the island didn't let that happen. Because it needs Sawyer to be damaged. Just like it needs Kate to be damaged (rejected by Sawyer). And it needs Claire damaged (lost her son). And Jack damaged (rejected by Kate). And it does a pretty good job of keeping the rest of them torn down too. Miles just watched his dad get his arm ripped off after all.
Perhaps, the island needs the damaged people because you have to be at a low point in your life to be claimed (maybe).
Also, (and again, I'm sure someone already mentioned this). . .if they're being 'claimed'. Why would we think that they're all being claimed by MIB? Maybe some of them are being claimed by Jacob. The test could just show that you've been claimed but not by whom - but perhaps as long as he was alive, Jacob's modus operandi was not to claim people.
But now Jacob's dead so possibly the only way he can work now is to start claiming people too. Perhaps, Jacob has claimed Sayid. Maybe we'll even find out that Jacob has claimed Claire. (Wishful thinking on my part, I'm sure.)
I'm a little worried that in this state he's in, Sawyer is either about to get claimed by MIB. . .or, the MIB will use his little 'I can appear to be dead people' parlor trick and use Juliet against him.
Kate does appear to love Sawyer. (I like Kate - I just always thought she took both S&J for granted.) It almost appears that she was still up to her old tricks - she thought if she followed him she could divert him to her agenda. Finding Claire. The sad part is that in this case, Kate has something of a worthy agenda for once and Sawyer's so lost in his grief that he doesn't see it. And I think maybe Kate's tears were her finally breaking down and crying for all that's been lost - Aaron, Claire, Sawyer's willingness for her to use him, Jack's confidence. . .it goes on and on.
On a side note, how many Others has Sawyer killed off-screen this season? Or did he just beat the first four senseless? And why can't we see that part onscreen? More action, less crying next week please.
Another concern I have is this. If we've gone through 3 hours of show this season and we're still not finished with the day after Juliet died. . .it seems a little like Sawyer's going to spend the entire season in tears. Which while realistic I suppose (even if she's just a friend), grows tiresome after a while.
It sounds like I'm complaining but I thought it was a great episode - I was spellbound - they tell a great story!!
With that " purpose" (LOVE) instilled in Sawyer, he can re-join the Losties with no fear in his heart.
From our words to writers ears... ;-)
Hmmmmm... Lost 2010... your theory flies in the face of all my hopes of redemption!!! You could be just as right as anyone! I'll still hope that that low point in a life is a turning point for good and I like your theory of a "test" being who they are claimed for. Claire abandoned Aaron when claimed by darkness.... but Locke was presumably on a mission to save the island... ??? claimed by darkness??? seems so, but jury still out???
I also hope a vision of Juliette is not used against Sawyer... sigh! but you make a good possiblity...
I also like Kate- and agree with you that she took both S&J for granted. I think you are right, her tears were for all that was lost, but perhaps also... for her realization that she is powerless.
I am hoping that Sawyer is saved from grief soon too... but willing to follow where-ever I'm lead!
@another lisa - It doesn't necessarily fly in the face of redemption . . .if being claimed by Jacob is an analogy for being redeemed. . .and being claimed by MIB is analagous to being well, lost. It would go along with the religious themes if they had to be broken first - before they could be used.
But it's just a theory. :)
oops - that's Theother Lisa not another lisa. . .sorry!
Lost2010... same difference, I was AnotherLisa till the abbreviations of AL had Amy Lynn and I confused ;-) I'll answer to anything, and warp if/when I have to to help keep things straight!
Thanks for the clarification-- you are saying that you can also see the Island getting a character to the point of brokenness and choice of how to resolve it? If so... you are right, its not a fly in the face... it's similar to the redemption theories...or at least reserves it as a possiblity!
I guess it is similar to the redemption theory. The island breaks them. . .then they're either claimed by Jacob (good) or MIB (evil) - but they have some choice in the matter.
So, I've come full circle - I'm back to thinking the whole thing is a religious allegory. :)
So I am working on a overall theory here and it goes like this... They never changed a thing, well, they did but they didn't. The so called chosen ones have indeed gone to the island, just not on Oceanic 815. Time will course correct itself and set them back on course to getting onto the island, this is why it's 2007 and not 2004.
The events they are going through in the flash sideways are the natrual progression of the time line course correcting, evidence of this is Claire not having her baby early. She needs to give birth on the island so that Aaron can get off when she get claimed or whatever.
Somehow they will all be drawn back together and end up going to the island. Where they will go through everything that has already happen to them, only at later dates, leading them all to this point where they are now at the temple.
Everything goes as planned up until this point. They get on the island they find the hatch and go inside, encounter the others, flash through time, and end up here.
The only things I can't gather at the moment is how the Island returns to the surface, and how does Desmond end up on the island?
Earthquake. In that timeline, Desmond never deserted so he's still in the military. There's an earthquake which dislodges the island and Desmond is sent to investigate with multi-national team including Kelvin and Mikhail.
That sounded better in my head. :)
Ded- if those are the only things you can't figure, you are WAY ahead of me ;-)
2010- good point about the military... he was flashing then (before? suppose that's inconclusive now) the boat race...
I don't know if it will end up being a "religious" theme- but I see lots of that personally. Those who are non-"religious" - it can be really seen as human nature... fight or flight, adaptability, whatever you want to call it. Its the choice we all make daily... selfish or selfless, kind or rude, honor or lie... all personal choices, or change (ala MEL) most often, we don't do those things for the good or bad till we're pushed, or in your analogy broken.
We stay the status quo....
Hello Locos! I know I'm a few days late and I haven't been around much, but I've been lurking a bit.
I think there are a couple of interesting things about this episode.
Someone asked about that sound between scenes, and to me it sounded like Smokey.
I find it very interesting that Kate got to know Claire in LA. I thought her reaction to the name & address of the adoptive parents was suspicious, and I wonder if she has some connection or something -ooo I just thought maybe she's the "other woman" that caused the guy to leave the wife?? That might be a stretch!
Anyway, Kate and Claire were good friends after the crash, and remember that Kate delivered Aaron. I think it's neat that there seems to be a connection between these 3 - Kate, Claire, and Aaron, and that she was there with Claire "again".
Also, I think Kate was trying to say she was innocent? She asked Claire if she would believe her if that's what she told her. I wonder if there is more to Kate's story or if something is different in this alternate timeline and she didn't actually kill anyone. Maybe she considers herself innocent because she thinks she's justified, but I see those as two different things, and that caught my attention.
I think Sayid has MIB cooties and so does Clusseau. I'm really curious to find out what happens when Flocke gets to the Temple with battered Ricardus!
I felt so sad for Sawyer - and I think it's a little different him mourning Juliet than Claire mourning Charlie - C&C only knew each other for a couple of months and they liked each other but it wasn't the same sort of thing that J&J had, living together and knowing each other for over 3 years. I can see Sawyer becoming a recluse, living by himself in misery at the barracks.... :-( I would hate to see that but it would be better than him & Kate hooking up again!!!
I'm also a DT fan, and some of that stuff you guys said about it makes sense to me, too.
That's all I can think of right now - Nice to be back here!!
is it Tuesday yet?
Ded- did you say: this is why it's 2007 and not 2004. ?
Did I get it wrong about the date on the sonogram- thought it was Oct 2004?
There was some speculation over at DarkUFO that the 10-22 date is actually Claire's due-date, not the date of the sonogram. That would make sense because creepy Dr. Ethan said she was at 36 weeks and a pregnancy is expected to go to 40 weeks - one month more.
I think I'm going to rewatch this tonight - Mr. MadAriad hasn't seen it yet, so I'm trying to get him to watch it with me. I'm hoping to pick up a few more little clues or something.
Also, Mel, I like you're idea that Sayid is somehow a truth machine and I'm going to keep an eye out for that when I rewatch.
I read a lot of medical records at my job, and I'd be very surprised if 10/22 is a due date. The date on medical records is pretty much always what date it is.
Ok this is my 3rd and last try.
Hi MadAriad
Welcome back.
MIB cooties to funny.
I think the FS are telling us that this group of people are destined to be together regardless what happens.
I want my computer back! :)
Yeah, I'd have to agree having a due date on a sonagram doesn't make sense. But it is Lost. :)
I think Gregg Nations did mention it was a production error for part of the date. I would assume the 10 instead of 9?
Hi, MadAriad! Good to see you here.
When asked at the Fuselage if the sonagram was a mistake Gregg Nations said this:
"Ah, it's a little combination of both. Two numbers are correct, and one number is a mistake. Can you guess which is which?"
@SG, interesting... I'd like to think it was the 2004 that was wrong, and we're actually in 2010
I should have put sonagram date
Someone guessed 10 is a clue and '04 is a mistake and said Nope try again.
Geez he said
if smokey is more magic than machine, why would the dynamite stop him when he was trying to drag locke into the hole? Ash, Sonic fences, and dynamite all seem to stop him.
Well- I was trying to show Ded that the sonogram said it was 2004, but now we don't even know if that is right! How Lost.
I just watched Jack take the one vodka bottle instead of 2 again- and thought- oh- he doesn't need the second one in his pocket because he isn't going to the island. I love Rose saying- You can let go now. and Looks like we made it. Those are more indication to me that this is the last run through, and that they may be alright.
Also- did anyone see the ABC pictures of the red tapestry and the temple glyphs? I got a link at LP one time but have lost it. The rug was very warlike-prisoners in chains being pushed toward a monster who tore them apart. And there were more Greek quotes- from the Odyssey about black smoke and death. It certainly seems that the MIB is associated with red- so I don't understand why the temple folk and Hurley also had it on.
Have to find those glyphs again!
JT, that intrigued me too when we first saw the red tapestry...was it in the extras of the DI DVDset over the hiatus? It made it seem like the tan tapestry was about Jacob/SunGod (touching poeple, humans helping and working with eacfh other, etc.) and the red one might be about MIB's more aggressive take on things, how humans are just a mess, or about his negative influence on them. I'll try to find the image that someone gave me of the red tapestry.
JT
In my opinion I think the guy who guessed got it backward. The 10 is the mistake and the '04 is the clue.
I've seen the red tapestry it's on siLost's site.
So in the fan community one of the prevalent theories is that the sideways flashes are essentially the end of the show, that is, the Losties do something on the Island in Timeline A (crash of 815 through crash of Ajira and forward) that leads to the creation of Timeline B where they all still exist and go on with their somewhat modified but still identifiable lives. But what if we've got it backwards? What if Timeline B, the X verse, precedes their crash on the Island?
There are tons of gaps here like the sense of deja vu in X verse, but not on Island, and I invite you all to poke away. But what if something happens in this X verse where the Island is underwater that sends us back to the Pilot and the story ends with Flocke's attempt to return home, be it successful or unsuccesful? (I really hope he clicks his shoes together at some point.)
Or sl lost I can never figure out if it's an i or an l. :)
Do you have the URL for that tapestry site SG? Tx!
Interesting Memphish. Some are speculating something similar to what you posted, i.e., the ATL/FS is the real timeline and the S1-5 in the reset. I really can't get into that at this point. If it ends up being that, and TPTB make it believable, I'm not against it. But I just can't do it now. I agree with you, the deja vu is happening more in the ATL, than on the island, although there are times like when Kate said she thought she'd seen Charlie before and he replies that he's a bloody rock god, and she doesn't think that's it, if I recall correctly.
If the Losties end up caught in eternal do-over loops by the end of the show I might be a little PO'd.
Although for some reason, I could accept characters being caught in eternal do-over loops if Rod Serling wrote it, so maybe I could deal with that too on Lost, who knows.
I wonder if Gregg Nations might have been kidding about the ultrasound being a mistake. I wonder for two reasons
a) he said there was a backwards way to get into the Jeremy Davies' class on LU, and that ended up being not true
b) how would the general population that watches LOST know to look online to see if there was a huge mistake made in the production props?
c) that's WAY too big a mistake
Well there was that huge mistake in the production props with Paulo's newspaper date. :-(
I don't know what to believe anymore.
The production people just had to know the on-line community would scrutinize that ultrasound photo! It just CAN'T be a mistake! Everything happens for a reason.
@Memphish: Intriguing idea that we're looking at this backwards...time will tell...or not!
And then there's the Obit for Jeremy Benthan that said he had a teenaged son. Supposedly that was done for a reason...to throw us scrutinizers off the track, or for TPTB to get a laugh, or something like that. :-o
@Capcom... until the end of the series, I'm not convinced yet that Mr. Bentham doesn't have a teenage son :) :D
capcom
oops I was wrong sorry. It's on eyemsick's site. If you google red tapestry on lost in images you'll find it.
I'm on my daughter's laptop my computer died probably a virus. I promised I would go on any site other than the blog. :)
I mean wouldn't lol
Gregg Nations is usually pretty straight forward about mistakes He sometimes hems and haws about it but usually owns up to it like the date on the paper Paulo was reading.
LOL Well honestly I don't think the general public would bother looking for the date on the sonagram or even consider it to be important. Only fanatics like us would bother or even want to know what the date was.
capcom
I'm posting this link with my phone so I can keep my promise :)
red tapestry
LOL Amy, you've got a point there! If Abaddon was lying about Helen dying, or if she died in childbirth...... :-o
Tx SG! Hope that you can fix your PC.
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