This description says it all:
The sixth and final season begins in the aftermath of the H-bomb detonation, as the survivors learn "when" they are.
Here we go......
Tuesday, February 02, 2010
LA X - Season 6, Episode 1
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«Oldest ‹Older 1001 – 1200 of 1212 Newer› Newest»Seems to me MIB Locke controls or takes possession of Smokie. I mean we are in the realm of spirits here. Jake floats around in time and space. MIB manifests itself in ways left to our imagination..The only exact we know is Smokie as a bowl of water that when unplugged turns in to a steam like, vaporous, noisy unpleasant apparition. Considering the Surrealist notion that Man is Soluble (dissolves in water) perhaps one can see that Smokie as the Conscience works,,and now, MIB LOCKE has taken control. Which is more than anyone has done before, including Jacob.
Fascinating it is..that by taking control of Smokie..MIB LOCKE is able to offer Freedom..beauty!
MEL
Darlton always seems so pleased when themselves when they think they've answered one of our burning questions. I'm sure they realize that we might have trust issues with them. The impression I got with the Smokey/MIB issue is that they feel they revealed that they are one and the same and that should be it!
Mave..so,,the "unification" has started at some level already? Seems to me ..yes...and Sayid just got reborn..here we go!
MEL
I think the unification has been in progress for many of the characters from the start... its only now we're getting it (someone I'm sure had it before...)
Hey, on a side note... where do you guys get the cool avis? I would love one for here and/or facebook..but I'm always so worried I'll use something copyrighted!
maven
I finally listened to the OLP and they did say that fLocke is the smoke monster. Unfortunately as I feared and the reason I was waiting I now know what Epi 3 is. I'd just missed what they said about Smokey and tried backing it up a little and went to far. From now on I'll listen when I want to no matter what the coversations are here. Should have known better. lol
I thought he was back when Ben told Sun What's coming out of that jungle is someting I can't control.
But the visuals can create doubt. :)
@SG, sorry you got spoiled, but the title doesn't actually give away that much, since one would hope that we'd go back to that storyline at some point, no? :)
I guess the rule of thumb with OLP is to wait until the episode after the one they are for is aired. It is a tough spoiler world out there!
Hahaha....I was 1008 (just an extra zero)!
Good afternoon LoCos!
Congrats SG -- I think you have post #1000 too!
Hi Ben!
Thorsten -- Congrats. The whispers at The Temple saying, "Will they turn left or right?" and "remember they are only children" is interesting, I have been meaning to try to listen to that.
lost2010 -- I agree that TPTB are using the PTL as a storytelling device. Though I don't know if I would say that every similarity would indicate destiny and every difference free will.
I have not seen anything so far that indicates that the PTL is causally related to the main/LOST-Prime timeline because of the 1977 DHARMAtime events.
I don't think Jacob has been killed over and over again. MIB/Flocke said, "Indeed I did. And you have no idea what I've gone through to be here." Which sounds to me like this was not at all simple even for MIB and not something he'd done before.
SG -- I interpreted Jacob's, "What about you?" to Ben as partly the final push Ben needed to kill Jacob, but partly disappointment. Ben spent his entire time as leader of The Others orchestrating a complex charade all to make it seem that he was speaking to Jacob, which actually allowed him to be further manipulated by MIB. At any point, Ben could have put an end to the charade the same way he could have made the choice not to kill Jacob. Of course MEL, with Ben as deceit, he really never would have chosen to do otherwise.
Asking what exactly the ash is taken from/made of is another good question -- we'll have to see if we get an answer.
We only had 3ish inches of snow here, so not bad at all. And I think I just got my LOST Supras.
Sorry to post and run, but will be back later.
another...unification suggests a Will to do so. MIB LOcke is of such confidence that he also is that Will. Will has been largely missing up to now. Going their own conflicting ways has been the source of much angst. Going back to the Island also was a surrender to the realization of how they botched the off island existence. All of them fell into the " stereotypical".
MIB Locke's assessment of John Lockes sorry existence is the source of that Will to change,,is the source of the Will to discover a way of existence not conflicted and in constant turmoil..is the source of the Will to...go Home...imho...
Mave..yea..Mr I don't care about his motivation , I just want him dead and cous cous are like Ben..I know I was lying before, but I'm telling the truth now..Its fun watching our demi-gods squirm in their own makings.
MEL
FOr those of you hit hard by this storm, please stay safe and warm.
my one lawn chair got turned over last nite. Could have been a cat tho. And Mave,,you all can keep all that rain to your selves. Thanks!
I got about a half a cord of wood I haven't used if anybody wants to come get.
MEL
and us here in the far east got nothing for snow. My bf was grumbling when he saw how much nice white stuff you got and here we are down to almost the bare earth.
MEL- thanks for that perspective on Will... I was using it in a way you hadn't intended... sorry. I think I understand better what you mean by Will now.
I'll use "transformation via circuitius circumstances!" or course correction for the version of change I mean to say has been in place from season 1. Overcoming issues through repeated lessons.... so to speak. At some point, when plan A ain't workin' for you (your natural inclination)... plan B starts sounding good!
Lisa- remind the BF that its nice till its up to your car windows and you gotta shovel! ;-)
@AnotherLisa he is one of them crazed people that would be doing the happy dance if that happened. lol He LOVES the snow and me- well, it is pretty and if it were a bit warmer I wouldn't mind. The thought that we have to pay for another tank of oil at 500+ this month has me a bit cranky as well. Being poor folk has it's disadvantages at times lol
LisaM--- I'm a snow person too. The shoveling wasn't too bad (very light, but very good snowball snow! don't tell him that!) But too heavy to stay on trees and give that winter wonderland look! Just shocking to take that first step out into!
SG- I dunno the Ep3 title, and don't want to... but I do think there's an element in epi 1&2 of story lines repeating with minimal differences, but very character-centric, i'm all into a theory of repeated practice till an issue is overcome or lesson learned..
I could be clueless... thus repeating the same lesson till I learn! ;-) HA!
Actually I never considered they'd tell the story that way. So actually it does tell me that much. I know who and what it's centered around. I know most people don't care about that but I do. At least I don't know what the island story is for next week. :)
maven
I usually do wait a week but felt the "need" to listen.
Congrats for 1008. :)
Ob
Really? I was 1000? lol
I don't think Jacob was killed over and over either but it is an interesting theory.
I've always thought the ash could be from the volcano. But why that would stop MIB I don't know.
Jacob could have been pushing Ben to kill him to put his plan into play. I'm not sure. We'll see I guess. :)
I thought I should re phrase that first part. I think I may have said too much.
another...Yes..Will is shaped or established by outcomes and consequences of previous decisions and actions. Results and consequences of seasons 1-5 Losties have been ..well..the stuff that keeps us glued to the tube. How can it be more fitting for the " end " of Lost, to be the end of that which has kept so interested? The " Drama " is over when the conflict is over. And sure enough..Mr Specificity ( Yes! I have not forgotten that one,Damon, you should take that one to your grave and have it carved on your headstone) and a Carton of Bud..okay..Bud Lite..have Willfully decided to end the Drama...unification.....what???
MEL
AnotherLisa
It's probably obvious to most and would be to me if I wasn't in denial. lol
I'm not invested in the parallel story but I'm sure I will be eventually. I must listen to Damon and be patient. lol
I was sure about the flash forwards either, but they weren't as bad as Ithought. :)
That should be wasn't sure.
Seems to me..prejudging or prejudicing ones mind by the way of previews, podcasts, and leaks..isn't the way to go. Careful now..I'm not saying don't watch or listen to the sources. I am saying,,don't let them persuade you to one perspective or another. There is plenty of history that episode Titles pertain , not to the episode they are connected to..How many times did the spoilers have Charlie die? Claire die? Point being..keep the mind open to any and all possibilities.
True,,DimpleDude and Crusty are being more ..specific..in their Specificity than any Podcast before..and so is the show. Perhaps in the last episode Podcast , Doomaflaage and Corpus Cristy will just acquiesce to the army of squirrels and surrender all the goodies...No more drama , no more conflict..Unification......huh???
MEL
MEL
I agree I think :)
I'm with you like Frank was with Faraday. Sometimes what you say is over my head and the rest way, way over my head. :)
I wasn't sure i wanted any part of the freighties, any parts of Sawyer and Juliette, any parts of lots of stuff. I'm a pushover apparently.. easily convinced ;-)
I get denial! SG! ;-) I don't want it to be over...
And MEL- I think we're close (though you have a better sense of the philosophy than I)... in what we're saying about resolved issues and Will (with a capital W)... S1-5 create the background for many characters to change their ways and commit to a plan of action/way of thinking that isn't/wasn't in their natural psyche...that just wonderfully dovetails with redemption and romance (ex. who'd have guessed the druggie making the sacrifice, the straight and narrow fertility doctor in love with the con man... or the con man staying with her despite a passion for Kate... etc...etc!)
I'll ask again... Is it Tuesday yet? ;-)
I've had to skim the last several comments, so I don't know what place, if any, this will have. But Lostpedia seems to be having a similar discussion on the ash/Smoke Monster debate, but I thought they had some good points, so I'm copying and pasting a few of them here:
The Monster can't cross circles. The powder isn't anything in particular, it just has to represent an unbroken circle to keep the Monster from crossing it.
The ash clearly wasnt in a circle when it surrounded the cabin and as they were putting it around the temple.
The circle had been broken. Perhaps by Claire or John?
Perhaps by Hurley when he mistakenly finds the cabin?
Perhaps Vincent stumbled upon the cabin in S1 and broke the circle (I know when John and Ben came to the cabin in S3 it was still intact but we only saw it from one side the other side could have been broken).
It must have been broken since the day 815 crashed. Smokey made an appearance in the early episodes, well before we even knew of the cabin's existence. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this. If the ash kept Smokey IN the cabin, how is it that he has been freely moving about the island since the very first episode?
The ash was keeping the monster OUT of Jacob's cabin. Remember what Ilana and co said - "someone else has been using it" - i.e. the circle was broken and the monster got in.
This would make more sense. If the ash is used to keep the monster out, which is how it was used by other characters in this episode, then it would have originally been put there to keep the monster OUT of the cabin. This is why the monster was able to enter it and pretend to be Jacob when the ring of ash was broken. We have never known the ash to have the ability to lock the monster somewhere, but we have proof that it will keep the monster out of the circle.
If the ash can keep the monster out then it should be able to keep the monster in.
re: Biblical/religious themes- I forget if it was Ben (welcome! by the way) or who it was that mentioned Norse mythology, but I was recently thinking that some of this Jacob/MIB, Others/Temple Others stuff is sounding a lot like Mormonism to me. I will have to research a bit and get back on that point, because I'm on my way out the door to take the kids to the park.
(sunny and 65 degrees here) Take care all of you in the frozen tundra! I actually do wish I could see/play in some of the snow you all are getting.
Lastly for now, and this is way out there, but in the discussion yesterday on Sayid and his new Iranian passport, someone mentioned the possibility that things reset so far back that maybe Sayid ended up being Iranian instead of Iraqi. Could things have reset so far back as to change Jin to be Mr.Paik (Mr.Paik's son) and Sun and Jin's relationship be reversed (making Sun from the poor family)? I'm seriously betting not, that Sun was just called Ms.Paik because of the letterhead on the message Jin had, but my mind began to wonder.
over and out...catch ya'll later
Stay safe and warm!
I just connected to Talkshoe to make the LOSTARGs podcast interview live and saw the Lost Community Podcast was running, I clicked join and it ended, I must have missed them by seconds !
SG...Heres a good one...which Islander will be the first to go up to MIB Locke and willingly go along with him? Sure the Hostiles treked with him to the foot but now with RA draped over his shoulder,,its going to take a bit more to go along with. Ilana may have no choice since RA is the closest thing she has who is tied to Jake. But is that willfully going along? Sun and Frank? Seeing it but not believing it? An arc there established seems to me. Belief and Will ,interesting combination to be explored so i suspect that they end up along for the ride. But how? Perhaps the bloating carcass of John Locke will give them no choice!
I made the mistake many years ago of..while rowing a boat smacking a very bloated carp with an oar. I Lost my lunch on that deal. Can't imagine John being any better.
That leaves the group of Hostiles directionless. MIB LOcke best be careful when he gets to the Temple . Watch your backside! That puts any going along with MIB Locke in a " Test" situation. But they don't know that yet. This is going to be good.
Sg..I'm not over your head..just sideways, thats all.
MEL
MEL, I don't think there is a spacial reference term for where you are at times :-)
Scout,,thats an interesting discussion on ash..I'm along with the idea of what ash represents..Ash is whats left over..the remains of what once was..So, yea,,people hang on to their ashes when confronted with change. MIB Locke is Willful Change if anything, he is coming to the Temple and the Temple-iestas are protecting themselves with the ashes..They don't want to change.
...Lost fans don't want an end to LOST....So....is season 6 nothing more than an allegory of its self?
WHAAAAT?????
MEL
Zort..thank you! Assuming language is only a representation of what is experienced,,no spacial reference term for where I'm at ..at times..shows the uniqueness of it and if there was such a term created, only I could do so. I think everyone should be so fortunate to do so if they wish.
Its fun being here,,at times.
MEL
oh so many great thoughts now caught up on.
I've only time for this quick bit of siliness:
Dogen... Negod... n e god... any god?
@Ob - Not everything is purpose and not everything is random. But some events are marked for the purpose. . .and some are random and can be changed. I think the two paralell storylines may offer hints (not definitive proof) of which things are destined and which are a matter of free will.
My bizarre theories today are courtesy of simultaneously reading 'Insomnia' by Steven King this week.
Well CD..i don't believe we've met, so.. Hiya!
Any God? careful..you are brushing up against the " revolutionary" aspects of the early Surrealists or at least the total change aspects of what may be required to end .." conflict" and become " whole".
WE, should be able to freely discuss..but I don't believe Disney feels obligated to be so magnanimous. The dollar bill constitutes their existence. So, while I'm with you on the Dogen and his Temple-iestas being any God and its " religion"...i;m sure offense will be taken here by some one or more,,especially as the Dogen and his followers fate is opened up. I like that " any God" is manning the barricades and fortifying against the MIB Locke. One wonders how a God, can live in fear? How unfortunate..MIB LOCKE is the guy who offers freedom.. liberation. Maybe they should just invite him in.
MEL
Hmmmmm....first, for me, there's no offense in posting the any god theory (especially when its spelled with a little g), just want to make that clear before posting since MEL alluded to the fact that there are some who might and I have said I often interpret from a Christian POV. That said....
I see where you are going MEL with MIB Locke offering "something"--and you could be right in the end....but I'm not sure that lack of fear is true liberation. It could be a self serving manipulation of the facts, denial, pride, or ignorance among other things. MIB Locke does not strike me as being free--- he's driven, disappointed, and ticked off... that's not what I'd consider freedom.
I saw freedom in Jacob's lack of concern for or confidence in the final outcome. As obvious as it is- therefore I can't be assured there's not a trick- my money is still on him being the one to offer real freedom. (Now, if it were real cash, I'm not sure I'd bet too much!)
lol @ Zorts "spacial reference term" reference to MEL!
@MEL, I love your posts, you raise a smile everytime I read you... re-read you... re-re-read you... stand on my head and read you that way! Please don't ever stop.
I kept seeing the name for this first Lost show LA X and I finally decided that it's like math we have LA (the first flight that crashed) and now LA X the one that didn't crash. lol with X being the variable
MEL, I don't think there is a spacial reference term for where you are at times :-)
have to repeat Zort- that is just very very very funny.....
MEL- I love your posts.
Anybody want to entertain that MIB and Widmore (who also wants to go home) are linked?
Like in Terry Prachett's 'Small God's', a God is only as powerful as the belief of it's followers. When a god loses it's followers it is banished to a ghostly existence in the desert...only allowed to pray on the isolated near dead, lost in sand. The small god becomes a whisper. But if it can fins a true believer...someone pure and true of heart....it can resurrect itself back into power...
That's a good thought Another- but how other than thematically?
Oh..and Brutha, the Locke of Prachett's 'Small Gods' was totally gullible and a true believer...making him a perfect candidate.
Re: Small Gods...I don't want to ruin the ending for anyone but there is a Ben character in there too and a sad but beautiful ending for both Brotha and him ;)
Future- god as the function of the strength of belief. And it may really be true that consciousness creates reality by what it chooses to perceive. So, to be alive is to be able to create reality. A miracle.
Absolutley JT ;)
Dunno beyond that common theme...but.thought I'd throw it out there. I was reading another blog where someone from here (really I don't remember this time and probably couldn't find it again... ) posted that Ben's Annie might be Widmore's daughter.... anyway...I think that's where it started.... This could be swiss cheese by the time I'm done...
It was Jacob, I assume, who exiled Widmore for not valuing the Island (coming and going)-- Widmore didn't want to leave, now hates Jacob enough to kill him and keep searching for a loophole, same as Ben is seeking to kill Penelope in revenge for Alex.
We are positing that MIB takes over bodies (still unclear). What if Widmore dies in one version of a story, and is that body? Maybe MIB or Smokey has a presence off the island as does Jacob... jacob looks the same (even dead)...we're supposing MIB and/or Smokey takes different forms...maybe Widmore is one of them at some point?
ok..its swiss... all I really have is a theme... and a question ;-)
Whew! Mabye next week when we get just a one hour ep we won't have to analyze so much. :o)
Tx Ob, for the comment on the previous page.
I really like, and am going along with, what you wrote on the previous page Lost2010. I can very much see the course-correctiong, etc., of the different-but-same events happening to the Losties that brings them right back to where they are meant to be. Don't know if that's how it will turn out, but it gives my head some comfort for now, haha.
zort
I completely forgot about the podcsat.
So David and Steve are doing one too? I was wondering if they would.
I swear I've either had a stroke or have become dyslexic in my old age. lol
I need to start proof reading my posts.
Nothing wrong with spitballing, Another.
Future- did you ever see the Classic Star Trek episode where they find the last Greek god alone on a planet waiting for believers? When Kirk and crew don't oblige, he fades away in the wind until he is just an echo.
Capcom et al.-do you think this is part of the iteration theory - same people over and over through the same time with things changing slightly? If so, and if the island and Jacob are the cause of the loop, what does it mean that in this flash sideways the island is sunken? Last chance to get it right?
No worries about the swiss cheese spit ball- i figured I'd get the idea out there and if someone else caught onto it, they might have ideas about how it actually might work that I didn't. I'll still chew on it.
Have to go look up your iteration theory...all I know at quick glance is that its got to do with time and numbers... and when you google it with LOST, a bunch of sites come up....so.... hmmmmmm....
Heck..after almost 9 months of without, I'm somewhat surprised this blog isn't over 2k posts by now. Yet at the same time I'm glad it isn't.
Maybe Jacob and MIB can be de-deitized if they are perceived as " ways of thinking and perceiving" or.. as, canon on what it is to be a human being.. or..as ways of perceiving Life..or ..well you get the idea..What is existence? or as Jack asked in season 3..Who Am I?
Thats one way to deal with elephant in the room of MIB and Jacob. In any case, the conflict is obvious between the two. If we are results orientated, the Jacob's always after the fact would banish him to the above mentioned sands, as some have suggested already. So the yet to be determined is what is MIB offering? He offered freedom to Bram and buddies. He claims Richard is now free of the chains..Then knocks RA out. So yes..MIB is not a God or even god. But he continually treks..suggesting he is a Path to ..well..the answer to Jacks question,,going Home...unification.
MEL
@anotherlisa - I love Annie theories. . .I used to think she might be Wid's daughter back when I thought Wid would be Dharma. . .but it turned out he was Other and his kid was Dan. . .but your way actually fits much better. . .I like it!
JT - yes I did see the episode of Star Trek ;)
MEL- if I understand you correctly, or at least come close, I like that way of looking at things- one sees even the ugly things in life as progress toward good (aka characters working out issues toward a better version of themselves, sorry, I'm sold on that for now, forgive me for being redundant), another sees the same things as inevitable evil and constant string of failings?
Annie theory is not mine...can take no credit other than it started me thinking about widmore... and then MIB and the theme of both wanting to go home. I started at Capcom's blog... I think it might have been on one called Lost Elders.
I am quite sure we'll learn of Annie and it'll be good! I was sure for a while Charlotte was really Annie, but I was wrong, wrong, wrong....(and I secretly really want to know about Shannon and fostered a the idea that she was at some point married to peter talbot.... from the Locke's dad drama... at least I think I remember thinking that... who knows by now or even if it would be important enough to disclose)
And Wid too... how weird that Pen and Dan are at least half sibs!!! (Do we know who Pen's mom is?)
Speakin about old episodes, I have an observation, made into a question.
How many of you all have viewed more than one ,Made in Japan Samurai movie? If you have,,maybe you can see the strut of Dogen Dude in Lost as familiar. I mean..all the movie Samurai have a way of holding themselves and struting about and Talking too..Confidence exudes ,,hardly any dialogue low and calm...every syllable an exclamation. Our Dogen Dude seemed to be portraying that stereotype. Without understanding one word of Japanese, you knew he was in charge.
Fascinating stereotype.
MEL
JT, I have no idea about what the sunken island means. I might have an idea if DI-ville wasn't there too, but wow. All I can guess is that it got blown up somehow and things will converge somehow to course correct, and then....The End. :o) But I don't get when it could have blown up since the Losties are still on the island in 2007/8. I might guess that it happens in a scene that we haven't been shown yet, that's happened enough times before.
Seems to me the sunken DI Ville 4 Toed foot,,et al..is just TPTB way of saying,,all that is gone now.. submerged in the murky depths of memory and sub conscious...ba bye.
Has any one else noticed that stewardesses don't say that any more..ba bye ? Its.. thanks for traveling with us..thank you..see ya soon..heres my phone number call me..anything but ..ba bye. I guess SNL skit killed it.
MEL
I guess I've turned into an Other, because I will be very sad if the island is gone when the show ends. To me it quickly became the main character of the show. :-o
P.S. I've seen a lot of those old Chop-Socky flicks Mel. The Blind Samurai was a pretty cool movie too, but more recent. It was also a TV series that Bruce Lee liked a lot. Yes, Dogen-San is my favorite new character, as long as he doesn't turn out to be as evil as Ben. I wonder if in the Lost mag or a podcast TPTB will tell us that they purposely put Dogen in that Mr. Miyagi pose with the plants as homage or something. :-)
Capcom- to add to the confusion, they have screencapped and pointed out on LP that next to the foot is one of the ankhs the statue was holding buried in the sand. That wasn't there when we saw the partial foot in 2007 in the original timeline- so how did events change so it is next to the partial leg now?
By now I mean timeline 2 of course.
lost2010 said...
@Ob - Not everything is purpose and not everything is random. But some events are marked for the purpose. . .and some are random and can be changed. I think the two paralell storylines may offer hints (not definitive proof) of which things are destined and which are a matter of free will.
lost2010 -- I guess I see that, to an extent. But I think that we may see differences between the 2 timelines that are not clues to free will, but to meant to show us that they are not causally linked by the Incident.
I have never really liked the term loop (mainly because of the overused "time loop"). But as far as character repeatedly being presented with similar types of situations until they find a healthier manner of dealing with then -- I'm right there with you.
JT, future, I remember that episode of Star Trek too. I think the god was supposed to have been the actual Apollo, and as you said, the rest of the greek gods had all faded away as humans stopped believing in them. Apollo tried to keep Kirk and crew on the planet to worship him, and the Enterprise actually destroys Apollo's temple to reduce his powers and escape. The defeated Apollo fades away at the end.
It was a powerful ending wasn't it Ob 8? I can still see his face and here his voice as he tells the other gods they were right, and that there was no place for them in the humans new world.
Rewatch note- when Kate sees Jack and Sawyer lying on the ground at the edge of the Swan station implosion- she has to decide who to go to first. This time she picks Jack. A sign of her final preference? Or she just doesn't want to deal with Sawyer seeing that it didn't work?
Dogen dude is a key character. I give him points for the ability to reject English simply because he doesn't like the taste of it..nice metaphor hidden there about translating the " word"...back to first hand experience.
With reborn Sayid in the Inside of the Temple..what Sayids message is to the Dogen ,and how the Dogen deals with it, could determine if DogenDude survives MIB Locke or not. Perhaps the well trimmed and organized bonzai trees and plants will play a part....??
MEL
Just Thinking said...
Capcom- to add to the confusion, they have screencapped and pointed out on LP that next to the foot is one of the ankhs the statue was holding buried in the sand. That wasn't there when we saw the partial foot in 2007 in the original timeline- so how did events change so it is next to the partial leg now?
Sorry, I had posted something about that along with PTL-Sayid's birthdate/citizenship differences at the ABC boards. IMO these are all meant to show us the 2 PTLs are not causally linked by the Incident.
AnotherLisa said...
It was Jacob, I assume, who exiled Widmore for not valuing the Island (coming and going)-- Widmore didn't want to leave, now hates Jacob enough to kill him and keep searching for a loophole, same as Ben is seeking to kill Penelope in revenge for Alex.
I would not assume that. We have to be very careful, especially with info from Ben/Widsy, especially as Ben came to be the leader of the Others through the exile of Wids -- a coup of sorts. While Wids may certainly have done things that weren't exactly in keeping with Others-law (whatever that is) I think Ben manipulated that to his benefit (possibly aided behind the scenes from MIB), which is why Wids in turn feels he was tricked off the Island by Ben.
Eloise was the Others leader at the time of the Incident, so it will be interesting to see how she came to leave the Island, though I suspect it has to do with her pregnancy and that Wids elected to stay on the Island as leader. I wonder if Wids subsequent comings/goings from the Island to be with Eloise lead to him meeting whoever Penny's mother is.
AnotherLisa said...We are positing that MIB takes over bodies (still unclear).
I don't want to be overly particular, but IMO we need to be careful here. MIB doesn't so much take over the dead body as assume their likeness. Locke's body remains at the Statue with Ilana/Lapidus and co.
Capcom -- you're welcome. Physics at times has been a bit of a hobby.
JT..Kate committed to Jack to have his back with the bomb business...so..the inclination would be to go to Jack first since she committed herself to his..plan of action. yes?
by end of epi 2..where is Kate?..such is free will.
MEL
Yes MEL- but I was wondering if it was an instinct moment as she could not be sure if they were even alive. Who did she care to see survive more? Maybe she wasn't too worried as both she and Miles were OK.
Ob- I was thinking out loud- like I said in just about every post (ex. the "still unclear" part, the swiss cheese disclaimer), in order to try to avoid a response such as yours, I don't have the answers- and would certainly not want anyone to think that I thought I did, but was posting under the assumption that "spit-balling" was welcome. Your repeated cautions to be careful my assumptions and ideas is noted and will be heeded.
Scoutpost said...
But Lostpedia seems to be having a similar discussion on the ash/Smoke Monster debate, but I thought they had some good points
I've had similar discussions about the ash circles as well. Things I've noticed/wondered about:
-If MIB needs a loophole and such an intricate plan just to kill Jacob, I doubt Jacob would need the circle of ash to protect himself.
-We have seen Smokey running free in 2004 (both in Smokey form and Yemi-ed, etc), so either the ash circle was broken as O815 crashed, or was never used to trap Smokey.
-When we first saw the Cabin/ash circle in TMBTC, Ben did seem to be carefully step over it implying it was unbroken then, though I admit we did not see the entire circle. It would make sense if the circle was broken then (or by then) allowing Smokey to say "help me" to Locke.
-I may be wrong, but I recall seeing the ash circle without the Cabin in one ep, but have no idea what that could mean.
-There was a comment above (pasted from LP) that the ash around the Temple was not in a circle. IMO wee just saw the beginning of that process at the end of the premier and will see more in S6E3.
Would Horace have put the ash circle around the Cabin to protect himself and his wife from Smokey when they moved away from New Otherton? Then later the Cabin was intended to be used as a "safe" place Jacob could meet with people if he wanted. Though if what Richard says is accurate, by Others practice, it would have only been their leader who could request such an audience (though I guess Jacob could meet with whoever he wanted to.)
End confused rambling.
I FINALLY got through all of the posts (all 1072 of them!). Whew!
I have just a couple fo quick comments.
First, the year for LA X must be 2004 if you go by the cell phone Jack was using. It was an older style flip phone with a visible antenna. Remember the first clue that the flash-forwards were in the future? It was Jack's much more modern cell phone.
Second, I think Kate went to Jack first after the incident because she knew Sawyer was pissed and didn't want to deal with him.
I'm curious to see what happens now with Sayid. Is he inhabited by Jacob or was he really resurrected? If he's inhabited by Jacob then why did Jacob warn that if Sayid died everyone would be in trouble? Wouldn't Sayid's death have been a good thing in the end to provide a vehicle for Jacob to continue to prevent MIB from doing them harm?
How did Widmore know that the war was coming? Why did he think it was important to have Locke there?
AnotherLisa -- I apologize. I did not mean for that to sound or be nitpicky. I understood you were thinking-out-loud and that's why I posted that I didn't want to be overly particular, but I guess I made a mess of it.
I only use the quotes/italics because it's the way I'm use to posting at other boards and easy to remember who's thoughts I am responding to because I can paste into a notepad as I go.
I think that in those 2 cases, those details are important.
on this whole go around of parallel alternate simultaneous..is anybody even weirded out that Sawyer would even warn Hurley about being taken advantage of?
So the idea of being re-invented plays out in the " mundane" existence,,but the Island existence shows there are still some major issues to be dealt with. Its not as easy as saying..okay from now on,,I was born in Iran..or I'm not an alcoholic.. or..i don't prey on human weakness...The changes appear to me to be all some what...superficial,on the surface. The REAL changes are to be a lot more epic, dramatic, and thus not superficial..but inside and deep, on the Island. I think the shallowness of Dharmaville is gone.
MEL
I think it was also AnotherLisa who posted the thought that MIB and Wids may be linked (sorry, this is what happens if I don't copy/paste the initial comment).
This is a great line of thought and worth exploring, though with as few details as we have, it's difficult.
We have MIB vs Jacob and for now it seems Richard is on Jacobs side as are the Others and Ilana. I would suspect Eloise is Team Jacob as well. Ben was seemingly manipulated by MIB, and though he has always lusted after being the Captain of Team Jacob, he really is and always has been Team Ben. But what about Wids? I believe he was tricked off the Island by Ben but likely did his share of manipulating so I could see him going either way...or even some type of double agent.
mungonna said...
on this whole go around of parallel alternate simultaneous..is anybody even weirded out that Sawyer would even warn Hurley about being taken advantage of?
Maybe PTL-Sawyer is or works for some type of high tech security firm? But then I guess we also saw him help Kate escape...
Ob- no real harm done- it did feel a little, "watch what you say", so much thanks for the clarification. I was just figuring I got too comfie too quickly here.
And you are right about the details being important... with all due respect, to you and all... on those 2 issues, I don't think any of us have those answers definitively (unless I missed something definitive re;MIB/Flocke, which could be possible too). Still lots of theories to be hashed- though I fully admit mine are among the weaker sort.
Though Lostit may have just given a bit of credo to the Widmore and Locke theme I had...
How did Widmore know that the war was coming? Why did he think it was important to have Locke there?
I wish I could use those italics! Every time I try... it won't post... tried again above. If you see italics, cheer with me! If not, it gave me the same error about not closing my html... ;-(
MEL said...
on this whole go around of parallel alternate simultaneous..is anybody even weirded out that Sawyer would even warn Hurley about being taken advantage of?
I kinda saw that as the start of a long con...establish trust and then make Hurley give money to Sawyer thinking it was his idea??? So much for my love of redemption... it didn't color that interaction too well!
JT -- the ending of that Star Trek episode was powerful. I thought I remembered Kirk saying something right at the end to the effect that they could have humored Apollo a bit?
AnotherLisa -- I am new here too, and am used to quoting to make it easier at other boards. We are all spitballing here. ;)
I see no way to link Wids with MIB. I do see Jakes nonchalant everything will be okay status quo " being" as fully allowing for the Wids success. Wid made it clear to Sun that he " owned " people..Thats not the freedom MIB offered. Eloise killed off her own son for the sake of what was most important to her. Her chains are obvious.
MIB wasn't liberated until Locke died a destitute miserable sad being asking.".why? I don't understand" . Yes it was MIB who probably told him he would have to do that ( die) and yes.. Ben was manipulated into the scene to play the affect of deceit on Lockes Being..making sure he died..But Smokie was unaffected by either MIB or Jake before . Smokie was under no influence but its own..until MIB was set free.....IMHO of course.
Still snowing OB8?
MEL
There have been a lot of Annie theories as the seasons have passed. But when I think about Annie, how she would have reacted to Ben post-Templification comes to mind.
The Others women and children were supposed to have been evacuated on the sub at the time of the Incident. Benito of course was actually with the Others. Baby Ethan presumably remained with Horace and Amy. But what would have happened to Annie? Would she have been evac'ed as well? And would Ben eventually feel she was "taken" from him because of that? If Annie was evac'ed off Island, would they have tried to hide her Island past from her as was done with Miles and Charlotte?
Now if Annie remained on the Island post Incident, I wonder how she reacted to whatever Ben became post-Templification. Would she have been accepting? Or instead, seeing a change in Benito, decided to keep her distance, contributing to Ben's feelings of rejection?
Ob, I understood the quoting (just can't seem to make it work on my screen!)--- And I understand the "be carefuls" re:the semantics of using the word "assume"--- will try to tweak into "suspect", or how about "I spitball that..." ;-) Just trying to be sensitive to a new climate and overly sensitive to causing a perceived faux pas! again, no worries! I'm sure at some point I'll commit a real one!
Though I'm happy I took the risk to put the Widmore MIB question out there (unless I was repeating it from somewhere else and don't realize it, then I don't want to take credit)--- you guys are making more of it than I could put together initially (whether there's anything to put together)! Widmore was definately invested in getting Locke and Co back to the island...(aka wanting to find it and go home)
MEL -- the storm only gave us 3 inches yesterday, so we're done in Chicago. It's just windy but not horrible. I hope our friends in the northeast that are getting hit hard are safe and warm.
Wow, I go away for an hour and tons of comments! :-D
Don't worry Another Lisa, we specualte the heck out of everything here at the Lost Community, it's just the spoilers (and specs on spoilers) that we hold the vampire cross and garlic up to, haha. If anyone looked at the previous seasons' theories of ours, they'd get a good laugh. Speculate away. :o)
Crazy theory again... I spitball... I like the idea of Annies island past being hid from her as was Charlottes and Miles. Has anyone spitballed that Annie and Penelope might be one in the same?
And that in wanting to kill Penelope... Ben would ironically have killed his own Annie?
The Popular Mechanics review of the science in the premier came out a couple days ago. I always like to hear Michio Kaku's take on it, but right at the top of the article it says "beware spoilers" so I am trying to find someone to screen it and tell me how long I should wait.
Here's the link in case anyone is interested (SPOLIERS IN ARTICLE):
Popular Mechanics
Yeah, AnotherLisa, Aniie=Penny has made it's rounds.
Ok.. thanks! I'm late to that party! Did it get squashed? or is it still viable?
I just looked up some Annie theories... HA! Everything from Kate to Rouseau are Annie to the woman who is really behind the mercinaries is out there! ;-) Wow!
Ob8- Yes I did remember Kirk- now you made me go look it up! :)
It was "Who Mourns for Adonais" and Kirk's line was "Would it have hurt us, I wonder, just to have gathered a few laurel leaves?"
Another..sure , Wid wanted Locke On His Side..or as his Front Man on the Island..but Locke smelled the snake in Wid and rejected Wid..It came to even worse,,with the take out of Abbadon(spl) Wids man in charge of taking care of Locke. Still not sure who did that..Ben..Bens people? Its assumed Bens people..but then..who are they?..Jake followers, as in Bram and buddies.? To me..thats the important link to make..not wid and MIB..but Ben and Jake..Everything suggests..that off Island..Ben, Bens People and Jake Followers are all the same and in a pact...another way of saying, Ben's lies were believed off Island. But that was the case against all of the O6..living lies.. and how it was that they had to go baaaack.
On a favorite personal level.. The Lie of Sayid ,,as the perceived stereotypical Arab..killing the rich white man..having sex with the white mans woman..etc etc..What a hoot...and of course,, when the spy master,, deceit, Ben is done with him..thanks..you served your purpose, now you're on your own..Good Luck! I should think that the MIB will bring tears to Sayids eyes.
MEL
MEL- good points as usual! and good question about who killed Abaddon.....and would they have taken out Locke too? or were they protecting Locke?
oh boy, i'll get better at having one thought in one post... maybe, if there is a Wid/MIB/Flocke link at all... it is similar to the ben /jake link? certianly not sold on the idea of Wid/MIB-- was just a thought and a question to see what others might have to say...input appreciated
MEL- Ben at least said he killed Abbadon. And you're on on some mushy ground there with the Arab classification. You'd get some pretty funny looks I think if you told one they were non-caucasians.
AnotherLisa
If we didn't have spitball swiss chees thougts we wouldn't be over 1000 posts.
I've certainly have had plenty of them over the years. :)
BTW closing your html is using the slash at the end. < / i > I can't use that closed up because it will be seen as code. The slash indicates end in the code. Make sure you don't put spaces between your words/sentences and the tags.
I guess what I'm getting at with tonite is...Faraday and Jacks idea of " it never happened" is basically flawed on a point.
" It never happened" does not address the issue of Why It Happened in the first place. Root Cause Analysis is incomplete..therefore Why It Happened remains in place. Clearing the slate of that What Happened does not address that, what was written on the slate was with chalk and Its The Chalk one is allergic to. MIB is saying get rid of the chalk.. free your self of it, and maybe you won't be so miserable all the time...if I may be metaphorical.
The issue of addressing the Why ..is taking place on the Island now..Jack , Logic, You failed! but with your failure, what is there to trust?? Trust( julie ) is dead! MIB is setting a ..omg it took me this long to come to this one ?...is setting a new outside the box path. Neeeext stop! Temple coming up!!
MEL
JT..I guess where I was going with Abaddon is who exactly makes up Ben's people..?
Mushy ground..well sure its mushy..thats the point. Stereotypical views are built on sand. I have knowledge that there are elements of todays American society that are putting forth great effort in fostering negative beliefs of the Arabic/ Middle Eastern cultures and peoples. Its pure propaganda. So when I see Sayid , living a lie, as all the other O6..I see the stereotype being presented as an Illusion..which is a motif of LOST since..oh..people surviving a plane coming apart at 30k or 10k or even 5 k feet. Stereotypes are Illusions is the point.
MEL
JT -- Yes, hat was the line!
MEL -- I'm not really sure if I understand what you mean by the "stereotypical Arab", but it is a bit uncomfortable.
And yes, "It Never Happened" is definitely futile and pointless. Continuing to ignore what happened or trying to go back and change it all is futile and pointless.
I realize that this is now my non-surreal correlation to your wonderfully surreal explanation, but IMO this is my exactly why TPTB have given us WHH.
Our LOSTies need to stop trying to change the past and erase what has happened and instead reflect on the why and how of it all. The very path they are trying to erase is so very important, and until each of them recognize this they will be doomed to repeat their maladaptive behavior and never be fulfilled.
Ugh -- that should have read THAT was the line (not hat).
I see MEL- the illusionary "perceived stereotype"-not your personal accepted view.
I heard a rumor that the 3/17 episode is called "Luck of the Iris". Can anyone confirm?
Lat..I am aware that what I am posting may make you uncomfortable.I Am So sorry,,but what i've seen coming across the internet and emails is indeed frightening. What is being said is pure propaganda, meant to persuade the easily manipulated mind. Once you have people in the grasp of Fear..then you have power over them. Thats the problem of Logic and reason. Both are the result of linear Greek Western thought mechanisms. Once you have the line, the linear thought,,a+b+c=D..then you can predict accurately a,,or b,, or c..and once you can predict that..then you can manipulate the formula to your satisfaction..Besides building skyscrapers, We use Logic and Reason..to instill Conflict, Hatred, and Fear.
Unfortunately,, logic and reason cannot instill Love and caring. You can't quantify,, have a numerical value..for Love.. Faraday's missing Human Factor in his equations. Only We can be responsible for that. Not the propagandists, not the politicians, the rabbi's nor the priests, not in the least the professors and teachers.
So, may I extend to you a comfort in this world of self made turmoil and conflict? If I may, then you know what it is, and I sincerely Hope that it is yours for ever.
Yes..the Why it happened is at the foundation of their conflict. It happened, because of the way they( or It) thinks and perceives.
Sincerely
MEL
And another random thought. Jacob leaves a corner of the light tapestry torn off and stuck with a knife at the cabin. MIB cuts off a corner of the red tapestry and wipes his knife on it. Two sides in a war, each with its "colors" But why are the Temple turbans and Hurley's shirt red?
I was really intrigued by Jacobs comment I was killed by an old friend who grew tired of my company. So Smokey is not Esau, because this late in the game Jacob would not call his own brother old friend to throw us off.
I was planning to hike the Jacobs way this spring in Spain, to Santiago de Compostela. It is a very old pilgrims path across europe. The funny thing is that when I step out of my front door I'm actually on the Jacobs way, because the building on the other side of the road was a pilgrims hostel in the 12 to 15 hundreds. And up on the road is the St. Jacobs church, which is a hub for pilgrims in northern europe. The problem is that walking the Jacobs way became very poular in recent years, and 2010 is special on top of that. It is year of Jacob, Xacobeo, because he died July 25, which is a sunday in 2010. So I am considering to take the route through Portugal to avoid the pilgrim rush that will set in. Maybe after May 23.
Some more thoughts:
1. Why can I only read MEL's posts in the voice of James Woods?
2. "An old friend" lends credence to Jacob and MIB being part of a pantheon, or even more simply, life and death. Assuming that one is the flip of the other, and that their wager is over wether human kind is selfless and redeemable, or selfish and miserable. God / Devil, Zeus / Hades, Ra / Set, blah blah blah. all have similar discussions in mythology.
3. I have the feeling that we are being "gently cheated" by the writers. At the end of the show, "success" would surely be to touch down in LA. However, were they to do that, it effectively makes nothing from the previous five years "real", and would be an anti-climax. By introducing and drip feeding that story all the way through season 6 from the start, we are perhaps seeing the end, at the same time as the final act. I'd personally far rather they all remember their experiences, but time will tell how it all pans out.
I am sure that they will retain their memories, Ben.
And I expect LOST PRIME to prevail…
Amy Lynn
That doesn't sound like a credible
title to me. But in the future if you have a question like that it would be appreciated if you would put Spoiler or Possible Spoiler at the top of your post then scroll down about 10 lines then post your question or comment. Then scroll down again and put End Spoiler or End Possible Spoiler at the bottom.
We try to be sensitve to everyone's different opinions of spoilers here. So if we're not sure that's what we do. Thanks.
I thought Amy Lynn was joking with the title...but with Lost, who knows :)
I have been adverse to calling MIB, Esau since our introduction to him....but hey, MIB looked pretty fed up with Jacob in the 1880's...
Spending another 127 years with someone who really grates on your nerves makes me feel a lot more sympathetic to MIB's murderous intent ;)
The hike sounds pretty amazing Thorsten. And a good opportunity to reflect on Lost post-finale.
Lol Ben! I reckon I'm going to read Mel in the voice of Christopher Walken....I might get a bit freaked out and will probably pack it in by the end of the first post though :)
It's totally cool with me if you read my posts in the voice of Harrison Ford…
SG- thanks for html instructions... I'll keep trying!
Mel- I love the distinction betweeen "what" happened and "why" . I think that's a succinct way helping me conceptualize what I've been trying to understand through characters resolving issues through repeated experiences and Will. ;-) I disagree that MIB offers "true" freedom, but like your take on it all the same.
Ob- exactly... history repeats itself unless we learn the lesson and keep it in our active conscience. Revisionist historians, IMHO, are among the most dangerous people on earth... course you can always argue that perception is reality....sigh....
And interestingly enough MEL- that leads to your comments about creating perception (aka ben's deceit!) through fear--and that's why, I don't see Flocke/MIB as free, I see him in the grasp all those things you mention Conflict, hatred, fear....Love and caring... those, I agree with you are a personal responsibilty, and in the face of all the influences out there... a hard battle at that.... perhaps, THE WAR????
Thorsten-- tentatively I offer just a thought.... perhaps Ben himself was the "old friend", and Jacob is referring not to the ultimate "who" who arranged it, but the actual person who performed the task? Perhaps Ben really was an old friend, regarded well by Jacob....but his perception of his relationship to Jacob, and all of the apparent "punishments" and failures to/in his faith made him tired... tired enough to say "What about me" and kill
I don't think so, AL…
I am pretty sure that Jacob is aware that Ben was just a tool all the time. And I doubt that he would call him and old friend.
Nice snowtracks, btw!
Lol Junior...I love to be read in the voice of Sean Connery ;)
Don't call me Junior!
And did I tell you my Alison Doody story?
;))
What? That she talks in her sleep? (sorry, coming out of Sean personna)...
Do tell :)
Just heard this on a podcast and didn't know if anyone had mentioned it here. Sun and Jin aren't wearing wedding rings in the 815B timeline. That explains the Miss Paik reference which I know we noticed. I haven't found a good picture to confirm, but that's interesting.
The other thing they mentioned and I thought of this too I think this time around Jin speaks secret English instead of Sun.
She could have been joking since she put 03/17 instead of 06/17. Maybe she should put lol when it's a joke. It's not always easy to read intent in the writtten word.
If Sun and Jin are not married Jacob visited their wedding in Lost Prime… good point memphish!
memphish
I was looking for a ring on Sun, it's not completely obvious but I couldn't see a ring. I didn't look for one on Jin.
Oh my, I had to realize I had become "AL" ;-)
Snow tracks are real! Next door neighbors driveway!
I do agree Jacob knew it was MIB's ultimate plan and use of Ben, but Jacob's words to Ben smacked of Ben's, personal responsibility for his actions...I'm not so sure (or unsure) for that matter, Ben, despite all we know him to be now, couldn't end up being on Jacob's side, or his friend.... it was worth a thought--- I'm not sold on anything but the personal responsibility part (which is something I think I understood MEL to have said better than I did - whatever voice you use!)
Look SG! I did it! There's bold in my post! ;-) Thanks for the help!
SG- sure she's just kidding on the title- AL wouldn't just throw one in.
I also looked for Sun's ring- they seemed to make a point of her holding her hands up in the beginning- no ring there- but you couldn't quite see enough to be sure.
That was the pattern-obscuring the dates, Sawyer nice or conning?, Claire pregnant or no?, Locke lying?
Maybe it was a way of TRYING TO GET US INTERESTED. Mystery worked in the beginning, why not now?
OOPS! My AL is Amy Lynn- confusion reigns!
Oh How funny! I took AL as me due to Thorsten's content.... I can go and reinvent myself with another screen name again if needed! (oh how appropriate is that? can I have ATLs too???!!!)
Yes... I was joking. Sorry, should have put a smiley face. I was making a St. Patrick's Day joke (iris/Irish). Also, of course, 3/17 is a Wednesday = no LOST.
Morning all! I gather there's some kind of football game on today? I don't they throw like Jack and Mr. Friendly!
I first thought that Sun was called Ms. Paik because of the letterhead Jin showed the agent which had Paik Industries all over it. Didn't dawn on me that they wouldn't be married. The "button your sweater" line would indicated to me that they were married and Jin still wants his wife covered up.
More spitballing- on MIB=Smokey.
MEL says not so- he just controls Smokey now.
A point about MIB-he seems to have been confined for a time. The last time he saw Richard was "in chains"-presumably awhile ago since we haven't seen Richard in chains. Smokey has been around all the time we have been watching though- so why would MIB not have seen Richard- at least as Smokey, if they are the same?
Also, when Flocke first eats a mango the that Illana gives him, it is as though he had not eaten food in a very long time. We hear MIB mention in Black Rock time that he has just eaten-so he presumably could do so then. MIB seems to have been prevented from having a form that could eat- maybe from Black Rock times till 2007. Perhaps he lost a big fight in those times, leading to his confinement.
What if MIB was confined in the cabin, with the ash around to keep Smokey out so he could not control it? That means of course that Jacob was controlling Smokey until the ring was broken. Which may mean that Jacob told it to do things like go after the French team and kill the 815 pilot.
Which may mean that Jacob IS a putz.
JT, I think maybe he just meant it was the first time he saw him in human form since Richard was "in chains". But, if we're taking the chains line figuratively, Jacob had just died, so the chains would have been just released, right?
Dunno AL- it sounded to me like actual chains and like MIB having viewed Richard at all, not just Richard seeing MIB in human form.
Also had a thought that Jacob throws in the "will you do that for me?" question to people because it is a rule that he must-not because he wants them to think about the choice.
Another- don't make it ALT Lisa- or we'll have the same problem!:)
AnotherLisa = AL
Amy Lynn = Amy
;))
Sorry I wasn't expecting a St. Patrick's Day joke a month early. Plus I don't have a calendar in front of me to know what day of the week it's on. :)
AnotherLisa
Congrats on your html. I knew you could do it.
JustThinking, I love part of your theory.
Confining smokey to the shack, and then using him to do odd deeds is very Shakespearean - Prospero did that to Ariel, the sprite he found on his own mystical island, in The Tempest, a reference that has already been well made by the show. So there could well be credence in that. If smokey IS an ariel / caliban type being, that negates the whole "competition" though. I still see them as two sides to a coin.
I can't remember who broke the ash circle though. I seem to remember the first time the cabin is shown, it's intact, and the second, notice is drawn that it's broken. It' safe to say smokey used it, as he has manifested as Christian multiple times, and the use of him in the shack was key. CONFUSING!
Holy moley! over a thousand comments? you gotta be kidding me...it's like all our frustration from the hiatus is exploding in this one post
lol
keep it coming, LoCos
Didn't Hurley break the circle after seeing the eye in the window?
ameused2bhere
We've gone crazy have we? lol
I think all our new friends from LostARGs are help with the numbers.
Thorsten
I don't think it was ever shone who broke the ash. Hurley would be a good guess though. I think he's the only one except Locke who had been back to the cabin since Ben took Locke.
Come to think of it Locke could have broke the ash when he went to see Jacob and Christian told he to turn the wheel.
I was thinking about this, SG, and how John needed Hurley to find the cabin…
LUUUUKE..I AM YOUR...no..no..no..Frankly My Deear, I Don't Give a...no..no..no..Upon a midnite dreary..nope...STEEELLAA!!..naah..By Jove! I Think Shes Got..nonono..DOH!..uh uhh..duuuh, Don't kno my own strength!..no...fine Corinthian Leather..uhmmm,,no...Bueller? Ferris Beuller?..pffft!...the piano has been..hhhmmm,possible...LUCY! Aiiiyyee! ...no se..Are You Talkin To ...nooo...OH THE HUMANI.. no no nnnnno.. we interrupt this program..no..no..No Wine Before its..na na na...Can't Get Enough of Your ..eennnooo...they swing to the left, the swing to the ..gak no..And Thats the Way It is..Good Nite!...Thank you..Thank very Muuulch.
MEL
Okay MEL, now I read you with the voice of James Earl Jones…
Amy Lynn- do you mind if we do Amy?
Thinking more- you are right that MIB must mean "I have not introduced myself to you in human form since you were in chains." As Flocke , he has seen Richard for a couple of days already.
And MIB could not be completely out of play, as he had to arrange the loophole.
How? How?
Why is it that the Temple folk are only afraid of Smokey after Jacob is dead, especially if MIB was able to manifest as Smokey or control it before then?
Oh- I've got to go-family and financial difficulties are about to come flying in tonight. Have some folks that need help and support-so I wish you all well! Keep thinking!
I spitball;that's what I do.
Just about anything goes here,but remember to be nice.And of course; Curb your spoilers.
No snow here,(SoFlo).The ground however,is covered with Snowbirds, and the people that flew in for the Super Bowl tonight.
From a distance,we see the two roads converging.As we get closer to the end,the final path may get clearer.
Not attached to my screen name... hope this helps with the AL abbreviation confusion! I had a friend with a "double"name like AmyLynn... asking her to be called just "Amy" was askin' for trouble!! Don't know how you'd feel Amy Lynn... but no worries now!
Just don't confuse me with the real "Others"... whomever they may be!
..I am not a poster! I am a spitballer!..
TaV...I hope Florida doesn't sink from all the weight.
I am with Hurley breaking the ash circle. His flite from the Eyeball was with out care. He was in panic. Locke's exit seemed abit more careful even tho ..he did pick up a handful of the ash..Maybe just doing that,,was all it took..? In any case, Faith( Locke) and Irony ( Hurley) some how were involved in that circle broken. That works for me.
..and on tonites shoe..no no no
MEL
Whatever is fine, LOL. Amy or Amy Lynn. No one has ever called me AL, so I don't ever think that's me.
Okay, then I will call you TOL henceforth!
;))
This time I'll know what to expect! ;-) TOL!
There is a mention above about TPTB's trickery. In that vane,something that has been a burr under my saddle for awhile,,is the presentation and portrayal of Dan Faraday. The sympathy for this character misleads us. We are first made to have sympathy for him,,in his broken mental condition, then made to go along his arc in exploration of the forces and situations that brought him to his broken state. The play on Sympathy..mis directs us from the tragic,,the wrongness of his arc. Becoming a scientist instead of following his Talent, what He liked to do, play the piano, is obscured by the sci-fi of his travels. Again,,like a magician distracting us with his right hand while the left hand deftly pulls the ace from up the sleeve..the Illusion of Faraday being acceptable in his arc was achieved by a Sympathy nurtured for him.
In hind site Faraday is obviously a Tragic, screwed up character. Yet, during the travels thru the episodes, how we took stock in earnest, in his success,seems manipulated thru the Sympathy.
TPTB have been Master Magicians all along. Yea..Illusion as Reality has always been at the foundation of this show. Any slite of hand tricks that caught your attention?
I am Not a Croo...noo
MEL
Why did Smokey try to kill Hurley in Dave by making him jump from that cliff? And why was Ben lying in the same episode about the timer, telling Locke that nothing happens after 108 minutes?
Ob you said, "The very path they are trying to erase is so very important, and until each of them recognize this they will be doomed to repeat their maladaptive behavior and never be fulfilled." and I have felt this way for a while, ever since the talk of Do-overs came up. They have to buck up and face it.
Thorsten, re: walking Santiago de Compostela....wow. :-)
Also, agreed, Ben is a tool. ::rimshot::
Very interesting info Memphish. :-o
I think I'm going to need one of those pressurized hotdog launchers for this spitball..
thor, you ask about Dave. I am not with you on Dave being a manifestation by Smokey. I do see Dave as an Illusion tho. Dave existed in Hurleys mind in both the Island and the " real"(?) world of the asylum. Kinda like interior reality becoming a hall of mirrors. That Hurley became Lost in it..mmm perhaps speaks to the nature of a The Comedian or Comedy..as in..when reality becomes more ironic, laffable,,hilarious, comic, than even the Jokesters can make of it.
Dave came across as an apparition of freedom, constantly beckoning Hurley to freedom. Now..this is where I address Other Anne's comment about MIB not being Free..Sure,, we are tied to this rock called Earth. Our feet are on the ground. But the freedom MIB and even Dave suggest is of the mind. The Free Mind..unencumbered..free of the Others influence..free of the dogma of the past..free,,out side the box of Any Parameter or Paradigm..and with that freedom our Imagination is easily explored and what we find there, and create from, becomes the answer to Jacks question..Who Am I?..In that.. is unification of the various conflicting paths to a One..and Whole End....Just kno,that the Imagination is infinite,,without End.
Please welcome the Lennon Sisters singing, I Can't Get No Satis..no no no.
MEL
Capcom, on May 23 last year my left leg got caught between a subway car and the platform and I managed to escape in the slit second before the train left… so I decided to go to Santiago ;))
Ahhh....MEL.... I think I now "get" freedom as you say it/see it for MIB....maybe more "singular in purpose" "unencombered" or "unaccountable" to others....vs.... the way I am defining, for myself, Jacob's "freedom"...
I can't quite put it the freedom I mean into words as well as you can yours, except to say that compared to the version I mean... yours seems to be different. I still do see MIB as being driven by anger, fear, persuit of an outcome...and that in and of itself I (personally) view as lack of freedom... but I now think I see a little better how you are defining MIB freedom, in the freedom to be that way without caring what happens or what anyone else thinks? Am I close(r) to what you are saying??? Thanks for the perspective.
Whoa, Thorsten. Yes, time for thankful contemplation and pilgrimage indeed. I'd like to go there, I've read that it can be a rough walk though, and I'm kind of handicapped now so probably not in the cards for me. But I think that I read that it's hard in one of Shirley McClaine's books, FWIW, so not sure if true. Anyway, very glad that you got free.
I could get into Dave being Smokey or MIB trying to get rid of Hurley who is a positive force on the island and might get in the way of his Loophole Plan. Have we seen Smokey "reading" Hurley so that he'd know about Dave? I guess that if Jacob can leave the island, MIB could too maybe.
Now that he killed Jacob via Ben as proxy Smokey should be free to go wherever he wants… if they were kept in solitary confinement on The Island through their game… if his home lies on our pane of existence, that is. But ot appears the Jacob was his keeper all this time… if Smokey was discarded from some place like Mount Olympus, maybe Jacob agreed to follow him into exile, as a friend would do.
Smokey wanted to kill Hurley (as Dave) because - big theory here - certain players are "protected". As Jacob's peeps, Hurley, Sayid, Jack, Kate and Sawyer (maybe Miles?) can't be killed by Smokey - it's one of their rules. But by temptation and misdirection, Smokey can manifest as anyone to affect their choices. I wonder how many key character moments we have seen were really smokey manipulating someone?
Right, Ben. I can't kill your folks openly, but talk them into suicide is fair game…
Obviously, MIB finding the loophole and killing Jacob does not end this war between them. MIB's real goal is to go home...where ever that may be (I'm thinking the Temple). Did MIB realize that maybe Jacob can take over a body, too (a lot of us think it's Sayid's), and then try to discover another loophole. Maybe the bodies they are currently in are very disposable and this battle has been going on over and over again through time.
If the temple is his home, why couldn't he go there while Jacob was alive andhanging out on the beach? And I don't think that reborn Sayid will become Jacobs sleeve… but we'll see Tuesday, I guess ;))
Plus, they don't need a dead body to pour their soul into, they just appear in the form of the deceased. Which is why Richard always made sure to collect his dead henchmen…
Oh, right, Dave had to lure Hurley of the cliff. I think you all are on to something there.
It could be that MIB couldn't get to the temple as long as Jacob was alive and protecting it in whatever way, thus how they all panicked when they heard that Jacob was dead and immediately assumed that MIB would be coming for them or the temple. Maybe there's a spaceship in the temple that MIB needs to get home? OK, no tomato throwing, please! :-D
I'm wondering if Richard is more important than Jacob and Smokey.
Think about this - he doesn't age. He's always "guiding" people to Jacob, and is known to both. Is he in some way the judge of their competition? will Alpert declare a winner?
OtherLisa ( yes i got it rite this time)..Yes.the freedom to be who you are. With that in mind..you can see that Eloise negates that freedom.. Charles Wid negates that freedom..Ben negates that freedom..etc etc etc..even The Losties attempt to negate that " freedom" between them selves,,and even Hurley within himself, realizes to be Comedy..you have to have Irony and Irony demands Two expectations..otherwise there is no Irony.
So even Hurley as Comedy has problems in being Free..Yet..I saw a while ago,,an act by a British comedian, I think,,can't remember his name..shame..but his act was taking Comedy into the Surreal..Characters from a set of Jokes,,as in.. A man walks into a Bar..transport into other jokes,,chicken crossing the road..etc..and for 15 minutes or so,,a wonderful , hilarious tableau of surreality transpires. Point Being..in even Hurley's problem of having to keep one foot in one reality and the other foot in another reality ..irony..the problem can be overcome by rising above both,,as the British Comedian clearly demonstrated. ...MIB will get along just fine with Hurley...may even be dependent on him...as in what a poster already observed,,the , Can you do this for me..aspect of MIB. A Breton's " Humor Noir" heavily suggests that.
WE Are The CHAMPI..nooo no no.
MEL
Capcom, they did not know what the muddied waters in the Fountain of Youth™ meant because Jacob lived almost like forever and kept that source clear… so if the healing properties of the water are linked to his life, what is the energy source here?
I still don't see them as aliens, rather as gods.
But these borders are blurry for sure ;))
Kirk and Spock will beam down and destroy the deflector shield generator so that Scotty can finish Smokey with the Phasers.
Interesting Ben. :-o
FWIW, last June the SeeFee channel played a 'Land Of The Lost' marathon which featured an ep written by popular ST:TOS author D.C.Fontana called "Elsewhen". It reminded me a lot of Lost, so I looked up this "elsewhen" concept and found that it's an actual theory that touches on splitting and converging parallel timelines. I wrote down the simple points that I found in a LostScience post. The post is mostly about the parallel between Lost and LOTL, but there is an interesting and simple graphic that could help to make sense of what we might be up against this season. the theory also includes lightcones, that Daniel has drawn in his notebook. Robert Heinlein wrote about parallel universes in this concept too.
Where's Kirok when you need him?! :-o
I agree Thorsten. I'm kind of hoping that it's not aliens. Maybe even the water protected them when Jacob was alive, is that what you mean too?
Thorsten (hooray for last second subway escapes).
Ben said... But by temptation and misdirection, Smokey can manifest as anyone to affect their choices. I wonder how many key character moments we have seen were really smokey manipulating someone?
I like this! It fits in so nicely with resolving issues, repeated things happening to be overcome... and the free will concept... it's all fair if its a choice....calling to mind Jacobs words to ben, that he had a choice not to kill him.
Maven- maybe bodies are disposable... and thorsten following you up... regardless of what we speculate Smokey does with dead bodies...maybe that goes back to the truce and the desperate need to hide the bodies of the men who attacked Amy?
So MEL--- MIB freedom comes down to "Who am I? I am who I am, want what i want, do what I do... regardless of anything" Sawyer would embrace the con and have no shame or second thought, Jack the hero and buy into it fully instead of wavering... etc, etc... I think I now "get" your version of it and can see it. Thanks for stickin' with the explaination.
Its almost the opposite of those who, in my little theory of freedom, are working out their issues to be free of them and better versions of themselves-MIB freedom says, to borrow a page from you... "Frankly my dear Scarlette.... nobody puts baby in the corner...and on with the show" ;-) (No, I'm not as good at it as you! But I think I get it!)
Maybe one time line is MIB's rality and one is Jacob's rality.
memphish
I re-watched and Sun and Jin are not wearing wedding rings. Also DarkUFO has a screen cap where you see Desmnd is wearing a weding ring. But is he married to Rachel or Penny?
If the island sank in 1977, there's no Penny.
wow I typed that wrong twice. lol
reality
Amy Lynn
Maybe Penny doesn't exist. How old is she? She should be at least as old as everyone else. Widmore may not be alive but if Penny was concieved off island before 1977 she should be alive. She must have lived with her mother at least until Widmore was banished.
I always figured she was younger than Dan, but maybe not. I thought Widmore would have been banished right after she was born.
OL...I have recommended A Breton's book " Nadja"..yes..The opening line to the book is........." Who Am I?"...so..while it took LOST 2 and a half seasons to get there..my anticipation fulfilled,,I wasn't surprised when the line was uttered. Breton, and therefore LOST,,gets into the Illusions we mistake as being "I." So..as if LOST doesn't demonstrate it already..its more complicated than ..I am what I do or what I say..Breton and LOST,,go further. The very way we are taught to think and perceive is a barrier to discovering your Talent..Your Potential,,What Will End The Conflicts of your Existence and ..being at Peace with Your self. MIB is removing those barriers...those chains. I can only suggest to notice MIB Lockes dialogue..especially with Ben. Ben asks question and everytime..MIB Locke answers the question in an unexpected way..from an unexpected direction. Yes..a different way of thinking and perceiving right there in front of us. Outside the box indeed.
I Have A DREEA...mmm..maybe.
MEL
She probably is younger than Dan. But we're not sure how much younger. Is she born around the time Widmore was banished that would make her younger than Alex.
If Penny was born 1974 she would be okay… and without Widmores influence she could very well be married to Desmond, in a course correcting universe…
Ahhh MEL- Then I retract all my "I disagrees" ;-)
I can see MIB in that "singularity of identity/ mind/purpose" way you describe freedom...
I think may just differ on what I (personally) see as true freedom...or maybe Flocke's motives and methods bug me. Have no philosopher in mind to quote ... wish I had better ways of explaining... or better semantics... but I do get where you are going!
Marvin Candle was just in a Bud Light commercial during the super bowl. :)
He was! It was so weird to see!
OL..Oh Yes!! I understand what you are saying,,A Breton was son of a B in some peoples minds. His problem was...he never compromised his principles..NEVER. While his fellow Surrealists went to the Stalinist Communist Camp in their opposition to Hitler..Breton formally " quit" them,,expelled them from the Surreal Movement,,because to him..totalitarianism in any form ..was still a Great Evil to Freedom. In other words,,he didn't sacrifice the means for the End. Breton expelled Salvidor Dali from the Surrealist Camp because of his fascist right Wing and MONEY MONEY MONEY proclivities. Breton was Short with folks who disagreed with him. Breton did not suffer fools. Breton was a difficult persona to live with..4 wives. So...to me.. MIB Locke has alot of the characteristcs of Breton himself.
Just remember as Breton said himself..Its not about Me..Its all about You..You finding the answer to the question.. Who Am I? Breton just brought together a bunch of revolutionary ideas for a way for each of us to find that answer..and thus..bring the Hope Of Peace to a world on the brink of annihilation.
Pretty Woman. won't you...uhhmm.not bad!
MEL
Ahhhh..... "Who is John Galt?" and Atlas just shrugged ;-)
And all the light bulbs go on (it takes me a while!)
I may have to read that Nadja book...
oh my... apparently the answer to the island problem is the beverage cart.....
lol TOLisa
I know. Was that suppose to be Kate? :)
Congrats to the Saints. The best thing during the Superbowl is that our friends finally asked to watch Season 1!
Just saw this on someone's Twitter... a Temple Other kid who isn't Zach... was he born on the island? http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-133278.html
Smokey can only manifest as dead people - that seems to be a hard and fast rule.
Smokey can kill some people, but not others.
Ben had a "list" of people, from Jacob, that he wanted.
Spanish preview - chess theme.
This season is a chess game. Certain pieces can't be taken, there are clear rules, and the best way of thinking is five moves ahead!
@ Ben...certainly it seems that getting the pawn to the other side of the board can transform it into a queen and dramatically change the game.
Trouble is I think the Island game of chess might be a bit more like this:
chess
That bud beach girl reminded me more of Ana Lucia than Kate… must be her top, I guess ;))
Thorsten, that and the New York accent.
Their version of Claire isn't pregnant...and no Walt...
It's like their saying kids and pregnant women don't mix with beer...
Happy Birthday Scoutpost!
Hapapy Birthday Scoutpost!!
Happy Birthday, Scoutpost! Hope it's great!
Amy Lynn
My guess would be yes. I don't think he's an Other like the DI or Ben's recruited Other's but and indigenous "Other/Hostile".
Happy Birthday to Scoutpost! Have a great day!
Carlton tweeted that he thought the Lost/parody commercial was funny!
I was also wondering why Temple Master Dogen is speaking Japanese...definitely not a native language to the island. Did he also come here in a ship lured by Jacob from Samurai Japan?
maven
It could be that he was lured there. One of the the clip shows said that many cultures had lived on the island over the years.
Thorsten- she also seemed more Ana Lucia to me
One last shot at something before Tuesday
The discussion yesterday sent me off into a 25 yard driveway filled with 20+ inches of snow to shovel and think.... on "freedom", objectivity, deception, truth and perception... (among other things)....
MEL- I get you on your definition of freedom- not one speck of disagreement left, only qualification. I see it as dangerous, particularly in the MIB extreme- ex. Hitler and Dahmer had that kind of freedom during their "reigns"...
So don't see MIB as hope right now for anyone BUT himself (I could easily be proven wrong, but this also seems to suit your definition of freedom, he's out for himself)- For everyone else, I see him, right now, representing the opposite. My little tangent in to Rand got me thinking on the Virtue of Selfishness, socialism (hmmmm are there elements in the DI?)...etc... it was a long driveway to shovel!
So my vote is the Temple-istas get the ash out fast!
Jacob's "freedom" I see as total assurance, trancending above circumstance, and possibly, because of a greater measure of power than MIB has... and therefore lack of concern for the outcome. (again, open to being proven wrong!)
In real and "LOST" life think there is a place and time for both freedoms. Times that a willful abandon of all things that encumber is the only solution and perhaps the only route to survival... and times where freedom transcends those things, possibly in faith (Ben and Locke both lost theirs....?)
To go Spiderman for a bit... "With great power comes great responsiblity"....
And with that final thought... can we see our returning and remaining LOSTIES/Freighties each coming back with a purpose and responsibility? MEL, has been kind of classifying characters kind of by trait (or lie)... it got me thinking, what if the reason each were chosen, and had to come back, is because they represented a collective, balanced, conscience (skill set) that, when unified, is the complete opposite of MIB?
Much thanks for making the driveway shoveling much easier to deal with! ;-)
Um, TOL, Miles is the only Freighty left, unless you count Lapidus.
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