Kate tries to save Ben's life - and takes drastic measures to do so - when Jack refuses to help. Meanwhile, she also begins to tell the truth about the lie in order to protect Aaron.
I guess we know that things are really changing, if Kate's starting to tell the truth about anything!
And if Daniel was right, and "whatever happened, happened," what does that mean for Ben Linus?
Wednesday, April 01, 2009
Whatever Happened, Happened - Season 5, Episode 11
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 304 of 304considering ben looked like 2004 ben in 1992 during the purge, i figure he looked like that in 1988 too
something no one has mentioned is julliette and how much about the others does she know that she's not saying. If Ben is always gonna be an other and be changed then was juliette changed as well and was her tattoo necessary to opt her out of her others status. She has to know more about jacob and the others primary mission then she has ever told any of the 815'ers.
Another thing that this episode hammered home with the whole what happened happened argument was the the notion that the 108 clock was an allegory for the timeline. Just as ben convinced locke that pushing the button was pointless and meaningless, the island, locke, and Ben have convinced jack that the timeline is like the 108 clock and it's pointless to meddle with the timeline. On Lost stuff usually isn't what it seems so It wouldn't surprise me if they are all being conned into thinking that nothing can change. considering hawkings is a leader of the others and dan is her son and widmores agent, then i don't know how much faith i put in his notion of what can be changed. If widmore and hawkings put dan in the island timeline for their own purposes, i think Ben hijacked dan's agenda with charlotte, just like widore and ben both used desmond over the years
casting spoiler alert
with the casting news of the dude that was rita's ex from dexter as possibly jacob, i'm thinking that the whole trip to jacob's cabin with locke the first time was a con. No way jacob is a ghost or all old
I wonder if whatever Richard does with Ben to make him lose his innocence makes him lose his childhood. Maybe he emerges as a grown man who doesn't age.
i like that lost 2010, but if that happens no purge because ben will have to go back to dharma for 15 more years for the purge to go off like we have already seen it
Ok LOST emergency over...I finally got to watch the episode. And didn't get spoiled- phew!!
I've caught up on comments and will try to jump in....
I honestly thought I was going to have to take a shower after watching Kate and Roger. Totally creepy. I thought I couldn't handle Juliet and Sawyer...but I KNOW I could not handle Kate and Roger! LOL
I liked how committed Juliet and Sawyer are to each other...didn't expect that.
Doc Jensen has a theory about the seasons mirroring each other. I don't know if that is true, but it is really interesting how we are seeing certain things mirrored. Like Sayid's and Eko's boyhood last week. Ben's "please help" sounding a lot like Jacob's "help me"; the many recurring shots of the LA pier scene a lot like the season 2 hatch scene. And when Juliet confronted just out of the shower Jack: Jack said he came back to save them and Juliet said they "didn't need saving"- just like Jack said to Kate when he stayed in Otherville waiting to leave on the sub (before Locke blew it up). Anyway, I think it's interesting how some very similar things are happening, but with different characters. Like Miles said to Hurley- the conversation had been had before, but not with them. Don't know if that has any significance or not.
Cassidy is the coolest. Enough said.
I loved how Hurley and Miles were the voice of the audience last night. All I could think was super string theory! haha Nevertheless- very clever.
I watched the episode on ABC's website today and noticed the captioning from when Richard was taking Ben to the Temple: it said that the "Whispers" were saying "come on". creepy
Finally, I am beginning to wonder if the "whatever happened, happened" theory is a bit of a red herring. I'm not sure I believe Dan's theory is right. But I don't really know how to explain what I am thinking. I certainly believe that TPTB are telling the truth when they say that it is not like Heroes...but I wonder if there is something else up their sleeve that we are not seeing yet. Ben may have the O6 partly to thank for how he ended up, but he was still definitely angry at Roger when he killed him in the Purge. Roger seemed genuinely moved last night- like a really sober moment for him. But I just wonder if something hasn't changed. I thought Ben's look at the end of the show may have suggested that something had changed. But I don't know...guess we'll find out next week.
Lastly- what is up with the Others? I just can't figure them out. I think that Widmore and Ellie represent a certain type, while Richard is in a category by himself, and then add Ben, Locke and Christian in the funky mix. Who are they really?
Ok got everything off my chest, at least for today. Catch ya'll tomorrow.
Oh and that Jon and Kate plus 8 picture is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time- thx memphish.
Help me puzzle this one out. . .
Juliet seems to have agreed to stay with Sawyer on the condition that she didn't have to be a doctor any more (well, and the fact that she likes him). And she didn't want to be a doctor any more because she can't stand losing any more patients.
So, Sawyer's the one who drug her out of retirement to deliver the baby. If he hadn't done that, the chances would be much lower that she'd be pulled in to work on Little Ben. But he un-retired her and now she has another patient and this one's about to die.
Now, Sawyer loves Juliet. And she tells him that she thinks the Others can save Ben and that Kate's taking him to them.
Now, Sawyer feels responsible - not so much for Ben - but for putting Juliet in this situation - possibly losing another patient - and he knows that would break her heart.
So, Sawyer is saving Ben for Juliet. . . Right? Is that what you guys got?
So, when they throw out the whole innocence thing - that's where Sawyer's coming from - he only has two options - let Juliet's patient die and disappoint her or go along with this.
Now, what you have to wonder is whether Juliet knew the consequences of allowing the Others to save Ben all along?
Because she had agreed once upon a time to let Jacob save her sister. . .so what does Juliet really know. . .how much of it has she told Sawyer. . .and will we ever find it out?
Ugh - did it again. Logged on under my son's account. Sorry - - Lost2010 here.
That's how I understand it too Lost2010/Falcon. I think Juliet demonstrated over the last few episodes that she's not a secret keeper when it comes to James. I don't think she knows what the Others will do exactly to Ben, I think very, very few post-Purge Others know the Others real secrets. But I do think she thinks if they saved her sister, if no one else was ever getting sick, that they have some knowledge/methods that can save Ben, and given that she's at the end of herself and Jack won't help, that's the only option they have left.
hey gang...I really enjoyed the episode. We really are getting answers by the bucketful, aren't we?
I wanted to see Miles try to explain Schroedinger's Cat to Hurley!
"Shoot me! Please!!"
and I LOVED the end where Ben wakes up to a smiling Locke. I can't wait to see the ensuing conversation. Dun da dun dun!
lol
Sigh. . .just accidentally saw a fairly significant spoiler (grrr). . .and I'm afraid I'll let it slip here. . .so, I guess I'll see you guys after the finale, I don't want to spoil anyone else.
ttyl!
ok, I just remembered something:
they said Everything has happened before. But does it necessarily have to be done exactly the same way?
Follow me: Ms Hawking told Desmond that the guy with the red shoes was going to die, and he couldn't stop that. All he could do was change the when and how, but not the what. Therefore, small changes CAN be made, it's the ultimate outcome that is inevitable.
Small changes....hmm...is this why we are seeing some things being repeated by different characters, they are similar but not identical...just the Island trying to get the exact formula...
I wonder when Charles and Ellie left the military and joined the natives...did they stumble into the Temple? Taken by Smokey like Montand? hmmm
things that make me go hmmmm
A2BH, I don't think Charles and Ellie were in the military. Those uniforms came from the US Army team with Jughead that the Others killed. The Others have always liked costumes.
memphish - Thanks. That makes sense to me. I'll go back to lurking so I won't slip up. :)
my wife and i just had an ultrasound and found out we are having a boy. I'm pushing hard for sawyer as a first name, but getting a little resistence. My stance is that Lafleur would be my second choice, so we better stick with sawyer
Great news 2Costa! How about James as a compromise?
Congrats 2costa!
Congratulations 2Costa! Good luck with the Sawyer suggestion...I like it and give it 2 thumbs up.
Sorry for the spoilage Lost 2010. It's everywhere darn it. I'm afraid to go on the internet. Hate to see you gone til the finale though.
Congrats, 2costa!
Just watched an interview with the guy who plays Radzinsky on tvguide.com. He confirms that in 1977, he is 2nd in command in the Dharma Initiative, and is Head of Research. Interesting.
Aw, congratulations 2costa! :-D
Hey all, I have a TLE question: didn't the DI in the game supposedly find that the island slowed aging, so the DI was trying to find out how it did it to duplicate the it? I sort of remember something like that. Tx.
well that was the inference capcom, but they never said it was the island. Joop was much older than his average life expectancy.
James is too boring. My other son is named Conan, for the action hero and the late night host. So sawyer is a nice action hero/ mark twain reference. Our only problem is making sure there are good nicknames. I've floated soy sauce as a possible nickname for sawyer.
Congratulations, 2costa, on having a boy! I really like the Sawyer name! Good luck convincing your wife. Tell her that TLC likes it! LOL
Ok, yes, that sounds more like it 2costa, thanks. I was just thinking that maybe the DI will find out what happened to Ben, realize the longevity thing, and then they might start working on reverse-engineering the reanimation/longevity. But...probably not. :o)
Heheh, how about Buzzsaw for a nickname. j/k
just got to watch, quick thoughts then will catch up. in 3 days i know everythings been covered so sorry for the catch up.
Good not Great episode.
Sawyer & Juliet for 3 years have had each others back. And i like them more every episode. bonnie & cylde style.
think i need to stop watching previously on.. i would have been pleasantly surprised had i not seen cassidy. confused about the timeline, was this when she was already married to jack??
didnt believe kate about claire, but my felt pain for her when she lost aaron at the store and said goodbye to him. great acting
locke's look at Ben at the end. WOW
Hurley & Miles need more scenes, it was like watching a time travel for dummies books.
if jack knows hes suppose to do something on the island how does he know its not to save a kid from dying. he had plenty of chances to kill ben when he was an adult, kind of cold to make sandwiches while a kid dies.
congrats 2costa.
Woohoo! Yes, LOVED the Hurley and Miles discussion. Called it that it was our Losties that made Ben into what he became. He might have gotten the "sickness" that Rousseau's people got sick with where they were just not quite the same.
Best part: James (can't call him Sawyer anymore right now) and Juliet have a very mature relationship! Wonder how long TPTB will let that last. My guess - not based on reading spoilers - is that one of them will die. Whenever people get too mature, too happy, too balanced and healthy they get killed on TV. For example, where are Rose and Bernard?
memphish - jon & kate pus 8 - very funny.
scoutpost - it is hard to not get spoiled when you miss it on wed. i basically turn the computer off and not watch E!.
falcon -said "So, when they throw out the whole innocence thing - that's where Sawyer's coming from - he only has two options - let Juliet's patient die and disappoint her or go along with this."
if sawyer wanted ben dead, he would have been dead. there is nothing in it to let him die. he helped because she asked. he knows that his woman is doctor, who can tune up a vw van. but he also knows she will always try and help people. and that she has his back so he has to have hers.
that said Jules could be a spy. ben sent her undercover once. maybe juliet was bens back up plan. once an other always an other.
twinkle - hurley and miles were great. does miles still talk to dead people or are there just no dead people in dharmaville 77
I'm sure most of you already read this. It's from Doc Jensen's pre-episode article, but it goes to the question of Jack and his refusal to act on Ben. This is what Matthew Fox told Doc about Jack's Island return.
I asked Fox to describe the state of Jack as we currently find him at this point of the season, and his answer speaks to the quiet, patient, humbled hero that has returned to the Island. ''Coming back to the Island, he gains strength just by being in its proximity,'' he explained. ''I've always believed part of what was destroying him was his actual lack of physical proximity to the Island. He is fated to do something on the Island, but in fighting to get away from that, the Island was destroying him from afar. Now, he's wide-eyed and alert and watching for his destiny. He doesn't have any idea how he's going to know it, or when he's going to know it. But when the moment comes, he will realize he's in the path of his own destiny. And when he's clicked into it, he can start taking action without over-dictating, without trying to control his reality, to just do what it is he's meant to do.''
I think someone, maybe it was on Jay and Jack said they think Christian will come to Jack and tell him what he's supposed to do. I think that's a pretty likely scenario. Anyway, I agree with Fox's take that what we're seeing is a waiting Jack, and his Spidey sense did not feel that his purpose in being there is to save Ben. Until he starts tingling, we'll all just have to wait.
In a way it's a real return to early Season 1 Jack who wanted to dig in at the caves and just survive instead of trekking into the jungle of mystery with Kate, Sayid, etc. to find the signal or leave on the raft. It really wasn't until Season 2 when Henry Gale showed up and Jack started keeping secrets (and post Kate's schizo kiss and run and Sawyer's "I love her") that Jack started becoming the scheming, secret-keeping, never listen to others, it's my way or the highway Mr. Fixit.
Congratulations on the baby boy, 2costa! Thumbs up for the name Sawyer.
I have so many thoughts on the show. My mind is boggled.
2costa, I have also thought that Jacob was stuck between timelines.
I find myself thinking a lot about Charlie and course correction. He died eventually but he also did a lot of things, including contacting Penny in the Looking Glass, that he would not have done if he had been hit by lightning. Would someone else contact Penny if Charlie died earlier?
When Kate and Sawyer were told that Little Ben would be changed and lose his innocence, why didn't they ask, "What the heck does that mean?" Yeah, I know it's LOST but I couldn't turn over a child to a bunch of armed people in the woods without asking.
Speaking of the Others, here's my latest Richard theory: He's an ancient Egyptian priest. He's mysterious but deferential, he's spooky old, and, dadgummit, he's got guyliner. Put one of those headdresses on him and he'd fit right in with a Mummy movie (which is about where my knowledge of ancient Egypt ends.)
BarbaraJay said:
Speaking of the Others, here's my latest Richard theory: He's an ancient Egyptian priest. He's mysterious but deferential, he's spooky old, and, dadgummit, he's got guyliner. Put one of those headdresses on him and he'd fit right in with a Mummy movie (which is about where my knowledge of ancient Egypt ends.)
I agree on the Egyptian background. I think the resurection theme is based on ancient Egyptian beliefs of dying, being judged, traveling through the underworld (the Swan clock translation)and resurection.
Here are some links on Ka and Ba
link
link
link
Maybe the Hurley bird was a Ba. Although it didn't have a human head.
I was thinking maybe Christain was an akh.
The second link reminds of Christain and Locke.
The shadow also reminds me of how Harper just "appeared" to Juliet when they were on the way to the Tempest.
BarbaraJay, your thoughts on Charlie make me think again that Desmond is going to turn out to be the wild card that no one predicted.
He came in a sailboat that Ben did not know about.
He is responsible for the crash of 815.
He saved Charlie, allowing him to contact Penny, which in turn saved the Oceanic 6, Frank and himself.
He "traveled" back in time, giving Penny a heads up on the island (or at least setting her on a path to finding out about it herself).
The rules don't apply to him, allowing Daniel to send him a message in the future which puts him in contact with Ms. Hawking.
I think Des is going to be the lynchpin that ends up changing everything. He's the one variable that no one's been able to predict.
And Lost will be lost to me if Desmond is the key to the universe and everything. . . but I'll still have the romances I suppose.
You know that's gonna be how it is, Lost2010. :o)
why is Desmond exempt?
is he just like Ellie and Charles?
a genetic sport?
another species?
what does that mean for Penny and Daniel?
questions questions questions!!
Desmond is exempt because he had to push the button for three years and turn the key. The key is the key.
I was thinking about LaFleur and his grid sweeps. Was he only having Jin and Miles sweep the DI sections of the Island or do they have a separate truce between themselves and the Hostiles that allow them to sweep the whole Island. After all, Jack, Kate and Hurley land somewhere near-ish to the 815 beach which is definitely not within the sonic fence. Then again none of the DI stations are within the fence, so I guess the fence is only part of the line, but that it includes more of the Island.
capcom - Thus my abandonment of the mythology to follow the Quadrangle soap opera. . .LOL. . .I gave liking Desmond my best shot. . .really I did. . . you just can't help who you love (as a character) I guess. . . ;)
I'm a witness Lost2010, you did try your best. LOL :-D
Well I have to say that although this episode was very reminiscent of one from the early series it was a bit of a dead end.
The last two episodes could have been done in one and given us something a lot more pacey and interesting.
We already knew a lot of what was shown, and not just through discussions here !
On the plus side was the Hurley and Miles conversations, they could have a spin off series of there own like that.
Even Jack saying no to saving Ben was kind of a let down as we know Ben survives so there was no drama or tension there, we just see that Jack is still making decisions that are ultimately detrimental to the 815 survivors.
I will now have to avoid the previously and the preview of next week to avoid being spoiled for the episode !
I hope the Ben / Locke episode that appears to be coming next week is more interesting. Comparing notes on being dead ! (I haven't seen the preview so that is just a guess)
That previously on LOST was pretty deflating, but then Kate had gotten to Cassidy's before L O S T floated across the screen, so skipping it would only have kept me in suspense for a few minutes.
Can't wait until Wednesday! I really hope we pick up in 1977 where Richard left off. Going back to Dharmaville and the quadrangle agonizing over their chioices will not be satisfying.
Happy Birthday Maven!!
zort
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the last two episodes didn't give us much. And not to sound to negative again. :) I agree on your assessment of Jack.
I felt they should have been put in earlier in the season. The thing I worry about now is are we going to get an other flashback for Sun that will slow the pace again?
Yes, I thought the off island, how do we get back stuff had finished, but it looks as though we will get a few more episodes with that as the starting point.
Happy Birthday Maven!
Do we really need to know more about Sun? I feel like we got her and Jack's full story when they met with Mrs. H. We know that's when they decided to return. But we still need Hurley and Ben's stories before getting on that flight. I just don't know if either would sustain an entire episode though.
Happy birthday, maven!
Maven - Happy Birthday from me as well
I didn't think we need to know more about Sayid and Kate (except to know for sure what she did with Aaron)Oh and I guess they had to show us what happened with Cassidy but that part was really boring/annoying for me.
As far as Sayid I guess they wanted to show us that he wants to be a better person, but always gets sucked back into the dark side of his personality. But we kind of already know that.
With Sun we don't know what she did before she decided to team up with Widmore to get revenge on Ben.
Why she thought he'd accept her offer and what the details of their plan was.
I personally don't need to know all this but something tells me they're going to tell us anyway.
Happy Birthday Maven!!!
xxoo
Happy Birthday Maven! Enjoy
Happy birthday Maven! *<|:o)8
Good thoughts about Jack Zort! Always good to hear your take on Monday morning. The thing that I think about poor Jack, is that he wouldn't have messed his life up so badly, if he was just able to keep his passion for doing good in proportion. His kneejerk reactions and inability to listen to other people's viewpoints (and to walk in another man's moccasins as the saying goes) caused him to take a lot of detrimental actions. Now he's going in reverse, with the New Jack. But if he could learn to temper his own good will and intentions, along the lines of Juliet for instance, he could find his peaceful purpose on the island and in the world. JMHO
LOL Sayidsgirl, poor Sayid reminds me of that line by Sonny Corleone in The God Father where he says, "I try to get out but they keep pulling me back in!" That line also reminds me of how Des keeps trying to get away from the island, but the Mob aspect is more like Sayid. :-)
Thank you all for your birthday wishes! I'm going to indulge myself today and get a massage! I deserve it!
One thing we all have to keep in mind with these kind of filler episodes....the majority of LOST casual fans are totally surprised that Sawyer told Kate to look after Clementine or that Kate would give Aaron to Grandma, etc. They don't even remember these characters let alone know their names! (At least in my circle of casual viewers!) TPTB have to play to the larger audience. Of course, we get so much more out of the story than they do!
I heard a neat reference on The Lost Initiative. They said this episode aired April 1st which could be March 32nd like in that Mystery Tales comic book from Locke's Dahli Lama test. Neat.
Yoiks!! We forgot all about that Memphish! And I was just looking at that comic again last week (gives self a V-8 slap!). :-B
It's neat little things like that Mystery Tales comic book that the casual viewer is missing out on!
FYI: The code for the season finale has been announced. DocArzt has a post about it if you're interested. I'm not sure if this is spoiler material or not. The finale's title is in the post.
SG - Do you think it's not just the lack of mythology, but the sort of retcon on the character development that bothers you? I liked this episode but that bothered me in both of these last two.
I think that the Sayid episode was sort of out of character for Sayid. In the early seasons they made it quite clear that it wasn't in his nature to be a killer, that the war had done things to him (like Scarlett) but in that episode they implied that he's just a natural born killer. And that he didn't realize the error of killing for Ben and go off to help people. . .that Ben just ran out of people for him to kill and then Sayid went to help people because he was bored. . .well, that fell pretty flat too.
Likewise in this episode, after 4 seasons of watching Kate dump Sawyer every time Jack crooked his finger at her. . .we're supposed to believe that Sawyer broke Kate's heart? Okaaaaaayyyy? I mean, I can go with it because apparently that's the story they've decided to tell, but it isn't exactly in line with what we've seen up to this point. . .
I also find it difficult to believe that Kate is pining for Sawyer in a genuine way, and not just in her "I'm bored with Jack now I'll go back to Sawyer" way. She had a chance to choose him a few times, but she turned him down. I can believe however that she always wants what she doesn't have, but to believe that she really cares for Sawyer *only* would put a strain on my brain bigger than the whole Time thing. :o)
Good point about Sayid too. Of course, it could just be that Ben was trying to make him think that little of himself, and not that TPTB were trying to actually make us think that he really was that. I dunno.
Hey, Fringe is back tomorrow, right?
Fringe is back tomorrow. I don't remember anything that was happening, but I asked a critic who has seen the new episode and she said she didn't think you needed many reminders to follow at least this first episode back.
I didn't get the idea that Sawyer broke Kate's heart either. It's always been the case that Kate wanted the one she couldn't have more than the one she could. Think that disgusting Kate with the spoon talking to Jack scene. I can see her thinking I'll just pick Aaron who will only know me as a "good" person vs. Jack or Sawyer. The heart break line is part of Cassidy putting her own spin on Kate so that she doesn't feel alone.
lost2010
I like the mythology. To me it is the most interesting part.
But I don't live for it.
I don't mind the characters having love interests. But this soap opera quadrangle doesn't do it for me. I actually do watch soap operas but I expect that stuff in them. I want more substance in my night time drama.
I like character developement and I don't mind fb/ff to do it in.
But I haven't seen any developement in the last couple of episodes.
They're not showing me anything new with the characters. It seems rehashed to me.
Maybe they're trying to show the differences in the characters over the three years. The only difference I've seen is it appears that the people who left the island have become colder or bitter. While the people on the island seem to have found peace and are able to work with each other and trust one another.
I just thought of something funny they only "constant" in the characters is Hurley.
I guess maybe I'm getting tired of waiting after the hiatus and half way through this season to find out why it's so important for them to go back. But I guess I'll have to wait for the finale to find out.
The following sentences might be considered revealing. So I'm going to put a space.
Unfortunately I heard the finale title on the OLP. I thought that's where we were heading this season. I just thought we'd get there faster.
End of possible revealing sentences.
I've been seeing and hearing on the Internet and podcasts that the Other who asks about Ellie and Charles might be a young Tom Friendly. I like that idea.
memphish said:
The heart break line is part of Cassidy putting her own spin on Kate so that she doesn't feel alone.
You're right. That's why I didn't like the Kate, Cassidy scenes.
It seemed like Cassidy was trying to run a con on Kate.
I didn't read it as a con Sayid's Girl, more like a destructive support group where the most bitter person is trying to pull everyone else down to their level to validate their bitterness.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who wasn't fooled by Cassidy. It smelled too much like misery-loves-company to me. Like you said Memphish.
I saw the title too Sayidsgirl.....eeeeeeeeeeeeeek! X-D
Okay, here's the "code name" for the finale - it was picked by a fan, so I don't think it has anything to do with anything, but spaces just in case:
"The Fork in the Outlet"
Also, spoilerphobes - avoid the title of the finale AT ALL COSTS!!!
memphish
I agree. I was going to say one whinner whinning to another whiner.
But I thought it would be taken as me whinning about this episode again, so I didn't.
I didn't hate the episode. It just didn't fulfill me.
Happy Birthday wishes Maven.The Blog monster,ate your last one.
I hope you enjoy your massage,and will tell us the great things you did.
Capcom;
Yes,Fringe tomorrow.
The Official Lost Podcast
was a little spoilery,but I listened anyway.I voted for the winning final scene,saying you would be a frozen donkey wheel not to pick it.
I think I've just always liked Cassidy and was so happy to see her again that I didn't much care what she did.
I've almost let go of the idea that Sawyer would ultimately end up with Cassidy and Clementine where I think he belongs. . .
But maybe I haven't after all.
Also, I used to like the mythology. . .until they introduced time travel. . .time travel is just not my favorite literary device. . .I could have handled aliens or it all being in someone's head better I imagine.
A listener on The Transmission had an interesting idea about the souls of some group of people inhabiting the bodies of others, so that Ben will be changed in that he won't in fact be Ben, but someone else in Ben's body. The same I suppose for those in Rousseau's team that came back from the Temple. It's an interesting idea.
It reminded me of the story Locke told Kate and Sawyer waaaaayyyy back in Season 1 about his foster sister dying and the dog showing up and his foster mom believing it was his sister.
Creepy idea -- remember how Claire's mom was using Ben's lawyer? What if Mrs. Littleton brings Aaron back to the Island?
Did the OLP address the magic moving bullet that goes in one side of a hoodie then reweaves it on that side and makes a hole on the other or how Miles knows about the donkey wheel?
LFL Stats are up. . .
I think I came up one place.
I'll take it.
Having Locke and Kate this week was a plus apparently. . .
Thank goodness. . . Penny hasn't helped me out in forever.
Steve and I are recording the podcast very soon @ talkshoe.com. Listen in or join live we'd love to have ya!!
memphis
i think locke told the whole group about ben moving the island through the orchid. I don't think anyone knew at the time that there was a wheel in there, except maybe charlotte. I also think dan knew but wasn't telling. I think dan's comment about how the orchid empirically would be logically where they would make the flashes stop. If the wheel itself wasn't mentioned before i think there are three possibilities. 1. dan is already working at the orchid and has seen the sonogram of the donkey wheel and told miles about it. 2. Dan has already know about it(which may be the reason for some of dan's awkward lines like"OF COURSE THEY ARE OVER" in reference to the flashes) and told miles or miles already knew from before like his line to Ben"dont treat me like im one of them". 3. locke told jack or one of the people he visited about turning the wheel after ben.
or the writers just messed up
I like it 2costa. It could very well be a case of something being told "offline" that we haven't seen yet.
I can agree with Dan postulating about what Ben must have done given that sonogram of the wheel, but it also seemed sloppy as many recappers have pointed out. Kind of like characters calling The Swan the Hatch.
Yep, I agree with that too. Like for instance, TPTB were fussing around with things that weren't really essential, instead of letting us watch Dan explain it to Miles. :o)
FWIW, I tried to figure out how Miles was saying that they could have their initial normal past and memories (up to 2007), and then also attain their second past and memories (from 1977 on), etc., here:
http://perditascientia.blogspot.com
The full LFL Lost Community league is :-
Tsol
Detroit Blue Herons
Weagle Weagle War Eagle Fantasy Team
Lossa's Losties
Elizabeth's Wicked LOST
DeD-LoSTieS
Team LuckyGuyLikeMe
maven
Eight is Enough
S.W.A.T.
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I scored a big fat 0 this week, which is an improvment :-)
or even an improvement !
watched part of one of us yesterday. noticed an interesting seen when jack comes back with sayid kate and jules. they were all discussing what happened to jack. sawyer is telling jack he should have let the bugeyed bastard die. so the opposite of 1977.
i still keep hoping that when this is all over that the fans like us are able to go back and watch and see all kinds of new things.
Given that our LOSTies seem to be the cause of their suffering from Ben by creating this changed Ben I hypothesize that Desmond will be the cause of the Incident leading to his own 3 years of torment of pushing the button.
bigdog, yes I hope that there will be lots of layers that we have yet to see when it is all over.
However with this latest episode I think it was fairly single level, Jack refuses to treat Ben which "changes" him into an Other.
I do hope there is more to it than than but I can't see it at the moment.
memphish - Does that mean Ben controlling Sayid led to his own shooting and transformation ? I'm not sure Ben would see it as suffering, but he does seem to get beaten up a lot ! Perhaps being a transformed other means you can cope with the beatings.
I think David and Steve mentioned something like this on the Podacast.
I think the suffering question we haven't had answered yet is what Widmore does to cause him to suffer by being banished from the island.
I think Ben can't die or else Widmore would have had Keamey kill him. I don't know if that's because he's some sort of immortal or because it would screw with the timeline, but Ben can't kill Charles and I think it's the same for Ben. Given that I think all the physical abuse Ben suffers is tolerable given that he knows he can't die, and of course, that the Island will heal him regularly quickly.
Of course the tumor in S3 changed things for Ben. I wonder if Widmore knows about it.
Speaking of suffering perhaps separation from the Island is the ultimate suffering these people can endure. It reminds me of Jesus' death. People think that it's the separation from the Father that is what causes him the true agony not the physical beating and death.
I wonder if Ben / Widmore not being able to die is either that the island won't let them die (rather frustrating if that isn't explained further) or whether if one of them does die then time gets reset (like Groundhog day)
sawyer voting to kill sayid also reminded me of peter denying jesus in the the passion
Nice one 2Costa.
I've got more theology mythology. Adam was told not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil or he would surely die, but when Adam and Eve ate from it and "lost their innocence" they did not die immediately. However a goat did die immediately, a sort of substitutionary death in order to clothe them. I wonder if there will be a similar substitutionary death in order to delay Ben's death.
Oooo, yeah! Good one 2costa. Ditto to al the comments this morning, too.
I finally got around to reading Doc Jensen's episode recap from last Thursday. At the end he talks about Ben's loss of innocence perhaps having his entire life revealed to him, of course with that time traveling caveat that you can't change anything. This is very similar to what happens to Slaughterhouse Five's Billy Pilgrim. While it didn't make him evil, it did make him an eerily passive participant in his own life. Of course, I still can't reconcile lose innocence with won't remember. Those 2 things just don't go together to me.
The Lost Community Hosts David A Dein and Steve "the Goog" Guglich discover just what happens when things happen and in that happening discover that they are mental. It's all fun and games until David starts dropping wacky theories like they're bad habits, and David's wife Nancy joins in the ruckus to give her two cents. Trust me it's fun.
If you'd like to be a guest on the podcast, have any theories, discover any clues, or just want to say "Hi!", contact TLCpodcast@gmail.com (mp3 comments are accepted as well), or leave a voice mail or fax at (206) 202-3512.
Episode 61 - What Happens, Happens
i think widmore just trys to lead the island by proxy because he fears his post exile judgement from the island if he were to go back, I assume that hawkings left in exile as well, why else would she always play off island puppeteer instead of going back herself. Also speaks to why she was good with ben going back, because she figures why should i have to worry about Ben the island will judge him. Just like the veiw that many have that it's God's job to dole out justice.
Just for fun:
A friend forward me this blog titled Ten Ways Passover is Like Lost. It made me chuckle!
Happy Passover to those who observe!
Funny Maven.
I'm thinking about Daniel (because I have the movie Rescue Dawn from Netflix to watch) and I wonder if we'll see a child Daniel if we see Ellie. I know a lot of people are speculating about Daniel and Penny being siblings, but why would they have different accents if Charles and Ellie, both Brits are their parents. I wonder if Daniel might even be a child of Dharma that is adopted by Ellie post-Purge, though that raises the question why he didn't have nosebleeds. In any event, I wonder if Daniel is the adopted son of Ellie or the biological son of Ellie raised by another.
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