Kate tries to save Ben's life - and takes drastic measures to do so - when Jack refuses to help. Meanwhile, she also begins to tell the truth about the lie in order to protect Aaron.
I guess we know that things are really changing, if Kate's starting to tell the truth about anything!
And if Daniel was right, and "whatever happened, happened," what does that mean for Ben Linus?
Wednesday, April 01, 2009
Whatever Happened, Happened - Season 5, Episode 11
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second!!!!
Yay, TAV... congrats on #1~
So, it's about Kate.. I've been wondering about her
Fourth
If she's trying to save Ben's life, he must have something to do with where Aaron is now?
Ok 5th
Black Swan shhhhhh ;)
I KNEW it!
Admittedly, who didn't, right?
Girl Power.
Raise your hand if you were afraid Kate would be willing to sleep with Roger?
I'm glad of the timing with the Cassidy flashback. It's before Kate was confined to California.
I had totally forgotten that Kate knew Cassidy from her own past.
Here! Looks a little better so far...
xxoo
(hand raised) Yup. I was getting ready to puke.
I knew it Jack is such an a**.
That was HARSH.
Also, I love Hurley's Back to the Future reference!
How sick is it that Jack has been somewhat redeemed in my eyes by that choice. Ben dying is much more interesting than Ben living. I vote he dies.
LOL Sayidsgirl. I was gonna say Tool.
That was the ballsiest thing Jack's done in 3 seasons. I like it. I hope he doesn't change his mind.
So nobody in Dharmaville questioned that Juliet - who supposedly landed on the island after being on a salvage vessel and then worked as a mechanic - is actually a doctor. And SAwyer was going to have Jack the janitor operate on young Ben. That won't raise any suspicion, will it?
Did anyone else get the idea that maybe there isn't really a Clementine?
Kate is instrumental in the fact that Sawyer had charges brought against him by Cassidy (and thus being in jail)
Jack just wants all his power back. He would.....
Cassidy seems to have gotten pretty good at seeing through lies, hasn't she. yeah, I wondered if Clementine wasn't a con of her own.
History Repeats itself.this is nuts!
Well, I guess he told her.
LOL, Jack has an epiphany and realizes what we've known all along. X-D
"You didn't like the old me."
Oh SNAP!
I've wondered all along if there ever was a Clementine, Lost2010.
ROGER AND KATE do not need to sleep together!!
Hey, didn't Bennie get shot in the heart last week and now it's on the right side?
LOL Kat....that would be Rate or Kager. :-D
So is roger going to all of a sudden become a good Dad now? That doesn't match with what we saw preceding the purge.
does this mean that roger is actually going to care about ben now and he is actually going to take care of him??
I love Hurley.
Correction: Kate liked the old Jack that she could control
Say that again...
Great time travel discussion! Hurley asked THE question of the night!
Hurley is the voice of the audience. . . . :)
i agree kate does like to controll ppl.
LOL Ace and Lost2010!
Jack's having a hissy fit.
The others! I'm betting that Juliet is going to find Richard and he'll take Ben to the temple where the island will heal him.
Now we're getting to the good stuff...
Hurley & Miles sounded like us after a Lost episode.
Maybe if Roger remains and alcoholic he'll revert back to his old self in time.
So, Juliet sent Roger to the Staff, which means it exists already in 1977. So why would they build a medical hatch that's better equipped than their main medical station so far away from the barracks?
Yeah! Can't wait to see that Lostit! :-D
Have I ever mentioned how much I do like Cassidy? She calls people on their crap like no one on that show besides Ben and Season 1 Sawyer.
I love that we can always count on Hurley to say what we're all thinking.
TAV, LOL! They probably could have gotten that dialog from this blog (or any other LOST blog for that matter)
Hurley has always been the voice of the people... lol
I loved Miles' time travel explanation.
I love that Jack!
Kate and Roger --- ewwwwww
Juliet's line about the Others made me gasp loudly. This episode already kicks last week's behind.
I also really like Cassidy, partly because now I see her as Saracen's mom on Friday Night Lights. I like how she can see through Kate. I do think there is a Clementine, though the crib line seemed weird. Does this mean James got out of jail just before he went to Australia?
Awe, poor little ole Matt Saracen.
Okay, I'm official sick of this scene on the pier.
Boy, how many tiems do we have to see that dock scene...is this the fourth?
Oh heck. I've lived that one. . .it's terrifying. . .
totally thought that was claire!! i miss her.
Is it just me, or did that woman look like creepy bizarro Claire?
Maybe Claire if she was a hooker?
I am sick of the pier too!
That left scene left me all Awwww.
And how mature of Juliet to tell the man she loves the truth. She really should be the therapist instead of Harper.
freckles. ..
:)
So why are they all trying so hard to save Ben?
I'm sure the woman in the store was meant to look like Claire. That's Kate's whole journey in the backstory.
Good question Lostit. I figure James and Juliet are like Miles and think they have to because what happened, happened. They seem very indoctrinated, plus they've known the kid for 3 years. Kate's desire is her misplaced mothering need.
Pier? If everyone's seeing it so much how could I have missed it? What scene was at the pier?
Never mind! I was thinking Dharma pier, not LA pier! (D'OH!)
It's like that scene in the hatch from Season 2, we have to see it from every possible camera angle I suppose. . .
I don't think Juliet telling Sawyer the truth has anything to with Sawyer being her "man". It was about survival. Doing what has to be done to keep their own lie going.
yeah that was creepy though i totally thought it WAS claire.
clementine does exist. ha
Oh blech.
Smoke
Yep he did.
Whaaaaaaaat jack believe in destiny? what..
Oh well, would have been a better story if she didn't.
Somebody get the R.A.
I can't believe it's almost over, it just started!
Kate just can't help herself, can she? She just has to jump in the middle of everything.
So why would the others care about a DHARMA kid? They were so quick to kill Paul and were about to do who knows what to Amy for a truce violation.
always melissa always. haha
I've always figured Sawyer and Alpert have been meeting keeping things moving along smoothly. Guess we'll see.
No wonder he is always hostile and a killer.
Ahh!So he forgot that Sayid shot him because of Richard!
The temple! I called it!
Hehe! Ben looked like he saw a ghost!
Yay! Redemption!
I'm even willing to get over the whole there's no way Ben should have been alive to save in the first place problem.
And I was dying for Rose and Bernard to be with the Others. Dang it. Charles and Ellie are though. Can't wait 'til next week!
Another so so episode. Nothing none of hadn't guessed at.
But next week looks great though.
Wow, so it really is Jack's fault that Ben turned out to be who he is, and not Roger. Heavy duty.
So in trying to keep him from becoming evil Ben. . .Sayid and Jack turned him into evil Ben. With a lot of help from Sawyer and Kate. And it was Juliet's idea to send him to the Others. . .
It's everybody's fault that Ben is who he is.
But Kate gave the final word. . .I wonder if that's why she got a dress and strawberries. . .if someone told him that.
Heheh, I guess you're right Lost2010. :-) But I like to put it all on Jack cuz he's such a pompous tool, snicker.
Now I want to see what happens in the temple.
Ooooh, good point about the breakfast.
Why am I all of a sudden thinking of Stephen King's Pet Cemetary?
So, maybe that's why he killed Locke. . .because if you're killed and the island heals you. . .you become "one of them"
Hey!! It IS the zombie season after all. LOL
Ben really was shocked to see John.
Very touching scene with Kate and Mrs Littleton,then Kate and Aaron.
The idea that the 815ers in the past caused their present problems has been circulating for a while. Nice to see it come to fruition, though of course it doesn't explain all the other people on 815 who've suffered on the Island. Loved the ending! Loved it!
That scene with Kate saying good-bye to Aaron had me in tears. I'm glad she left him with his grandmother instead of some of the other possibilities that were discussed.
I was really happy with Kate by the end of the episode. She had realized her own selfishness and decided to move past it.
So we learned that Jack would kill a young Hitler, Juliet and Kate would not, and if Juliet and/or Kate told Sawyer that, he would not either.
So maybe Ben wasn't completely lying when he said he was born on the island.
Just reborn on it.
I thought it was pretty nice from the romantic angle too.
Sawyer and Juliet both stuck by each other even when alone with Jack and Kate.
Sawyer admitted that he had to grow up to be ready for a relationship with Juliet.
Kate went back for CLAIRE!!!!! Yay!!! Somebody finally remembered poor little Claire. . .I think I like Kate again.
Jack-----pffft-----I guess if we redeemed everybody in one episode the series would be over.
:)
Yeah, I tried to sell that idea last week Acewebguy. Anyone buying this week? I hope so. I really, really want him to be resurrected like Locke and Christian. Or can Ben just not kill Widmore because he allowed him to be saved? Whatever the reason is Ben can't kill Widmore should be revealed next week--I hope! And if they could just throw in a line about Rose and Bernard, I'd really appreciate it.
I do wonder if it'll be significant that Kate gave the consent for Richard to take him.
Also liked that Richard doesn't answer to Ellie and Charles.
I don't know if I really believe that Kate went back for Claire. I think that was just her story when talking to Claire's Mom. When she got reunited with the LBs, she didn't ask anybody if they had seen Claire.
I liked Jack tonight. I think refusing to save Hitler is not necessarily the wrong call even if he is 12. His accurate assessment of his and Kate's relationship won him many many brownie points in my book. His failure to have any purpose at this point and his continued chest shaving wiped away a few of those points though.
the way he said Ellie and Charles sounded like they go together like a married couple.
Plus, I don't see Widmore sharing power otherwise
They've only been there one day LostIt. I think Kate is sincerely there to find Claire. The whole problem of being in the 70s though will likely make that difficult.
Did we see both of Jacob's arms?
Well, Ben getting resurrected sure puts a spin on the "I know what you are boy" comment. Whew!
You're right Lostit, she never enquired about Claire in DI-ville.
So they have to do something to Ben other than just resurrect him to make him forget what happened to him, right? Locke didn't forget. Christian doesn't seem to have forgotten. And why Christian? Still waiting to find out how he knows so much.
Y'all cut Kate some slack. The only friend Kate's made is Roger -- ewwwww -- and she hasn't had any alone time with those in the know to ask about Claire without giving them up.
That's funny I didn't beleive Kate when she said she was going back for Claire.
that episode didn't impress me much at all.
however, seems that they're on track with my spherical time theory.
and i still won't give up on purgatory. ben is back to "be judged"....hmmm.......
peace, love and purgatory
So the sickness is Sociopathy. Rousseau's crew got it when they went into the temple and Ben got it after Richard took him in.
This is almost more like killing Anakin than Hitler. . .
Anakin died and you got Darth in his place. . .
And in the end, Darth really did take down the Emporer and restore balance to the force. . .
So Ben just miiiiigggghhhhttt end up being one of the good guys in the final minutes of the series.
LOL Matt.
Nice Lost2010, but I don't think any of our LOSTies can see it as Darth vs. Hitler at this point. They are in 1977 when Star Wars first came out. Clue?
Nice call Matt about the sickness. So do all the Others have the sickness? Is that what makes them Others?
And what did Richard mean about not answering to Charles and Ellie? Is there someone else or is Richard the leader at this point?
So what will the other DI folks do when they notice that Kate, LeFleur and Ben are missing and 2 DI vans are at the security fence. Did anyone see Kate and Sayer leave with Ben? Aren't there cameras at the fence?
matt: i buy that. the only question is "why".
i knowm it has something to do with smokey.
eh...
p, l and p.
I actually believed Kate.
Of course, I just rewatched "Do No Harm" and when you chase that with this episode. . .
Kate's alright.
Locke wasn't taken to the temple to become "one of us".
chuckles, it's like I said - Pet Cemetery. They come back, but they're different.
I'm pretty sure I asked some time last week why aren't the DI more suspicious about Juliet suddenly being a doctor. It's weird, but I guess Oldham gave them happy drugs that make them accept things like that and so they'll equally accept whatever LaFleur sells them about his and Kate and Juliet's actions later. Unless they all die in 1977! Clearly they accept some story because they take Ben back in until he's old enough to kill them all.
I think the others do have the sickness. Richard is the only one that has ever showed that he was capable of being a human being - and that was really only to Locke. Maybe that is because Richard was always part of the island - the others have to be "reborn" to be part of it. Sell their sole if you will.
there will be another plane crash.
the flight 815 passengers still with the DI will die by Ben's doing (and his "others").
and so on.......
and so goes the cycle (circle of fate).
peace, love and purgatory
D! True Dharmaville Story.
You just wait. . .Phil's got it all there in his little reporter's notebook. . .
And if Kate sleeps with Roger, I got back to my original opinion on her.
lostit: have you always been "lostit"??
forgive me and my bad memory.
So Matt do you think that the flight attendant Cindy and the kids and the other Tailies have become Others by selling their souls as well?
Maybe that's a ritual at some point in Other-dom-ness, but it seems like in New Otherton most had not engaged in this ritual. They had not fully committed as Ben said once. Alex, for example, didn't know where the Temple was or what it was for. Should Ben have "protected" her by taking her to the Temple earlier? I think Juliet certainly hasn't been there.
So, this is a little creepy, but Juliet. . .she's uh, you don't think she's a real Other then? Just recruited to work with them?
Yup. I've been here since TLE, but I don't always have time to post.
gotta run.
talk another time. gotta watch the suns snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. ugh........
peace, love and purgatory
Must mull. . .always a pleasure to watch with you guys!
Until next week. . .
I'm thinking out loud here but I think the only "real" Others we've seen in the earlier seasons are Ben, Ethan, Tom, Richard. Those are the ones we know were indeed permitted to travel off Island.
I dunno Lost2010, but I guess she saw enough during her first round in Otherville to know what Richard can do with daed or dying people. :-o
I agree memphish - no one else seemed to know about the temple. thanks for squashing my theory. LOL!!
Ben's others did seem to act like they "owed" something to him. Dangit - now I am really confused.
Sorry Matt. Looking forward to rewatching tomorrow. Catch y'all then.
This is one of the funniest pictures ever. Especially Sayid.
OMG!! Look at little Hurley!!
I don't know Jack looks a little creepy in that picture.
I know some will disagree (some have already), but I love the new Jack. I love that he has the spiteful attitude towards Sawyer and is perfectly content to watch him squirm while trying to lead. "Not so easy, is it?"
I love that he isn't just reacting and jumping through the next hoop every time something goes wrong. Instead, he makes sandwiches.
And I LOVED his line to Kate tonight. "You didn't like the old me". Right before he said that, I said "Uhh, actually Kate, you chose Sawyer over the old Jack." Then he scored the zinger.
He's starting to talk like Locke, which I'm not sure how I feel about yet. Verdict pending.
And finally, he has a heart of stone. Towards Kate. Towards Ben. Even Juliet. Being overly compassionate or sensitive landed him in a world of hurt over and over. At least he learned his lesson.
Yep, it's safe to say that I dig the new Jack.
Also, someone said Hurley had the question of the night. I assume it was the whole "Well how come when we caught him and Sayid kicked his butt, he didn't remember getting shot by the same guy as a kid?". To which my friends and I promptly cracked up, since it was such a familiar conversation.
I found it a little corny though that they answered that exact question by the end of the episode. Whatever happened to the days where you had to theorize for a season or two before getting an answer. After last week and this week, I find that I don't have many questions about the episode or the story as a whole. I just want to see next week's episode to continue the story. I guess that just means we're closer to the end of the story than the beginning. Just not enough time to bring in more questions.
I'm out til tomorrow morning. Night, y'all.
Oh I am so upset!! I had to be out and totally forgot to record the show!! Now I'll have to wait until tomorrow night to see it. So see ya'll then.
I'm rewatching now and it just struck me that Jack's attitude reminds me of Ben's when he says to Sawyer "so he dies" when Sawyer's trying to get JAck to go save Ben. How many times have we heard Ben say "so" when someone talks about people getting hurt or dying?
I'm convinced that Juliet konws more about the Others and what they can do than she's let on in the past. She really seemed to be lost in thought about it when she told Kate that there was something they might be able to do. She had a somber look to her, too, as if she knew that their help came with a price.
But then, when Ben needed surgery for his tumor, why did Jack need to do it? Why didn't the island just do its thing? Or was that episode more for Jack than it was for Ben in the timeline POV?
So we still don't know where Sun disappeared to after meeting Mrs Hawking. I thought sure she had gone to talk to Kate and had something to do with convincing her to give up Aaron and go back to the island, but Kate was talking to Cassidy. I wonder where she went and why.
Now I get why the Others would care about the DI kid being shot. Because the DI think that he was shot by them and that would be a definite violation of the truce and it would end in an all-out war if the others didn't help.
So why didn't KAte simply tell Jack what she did with Aaron instead of being so melodramatic about it. She could have said it in just a few words "He's with his grandmother". Unless she was afraid Jack would try to get him back and bring him back to the island?
Quickies:
I knew in the "previously on LOST" segment, Kate was going to see Cassidy! We all knew this!
Little Ben calls out weakly, "Please help." just like Jacob says "Help me."
Roger Linus sure seems like a concerned father all of a sudden. I guess he's sober.
Cassidy can see right through Kate.
Hurley looking at his hand and doing "Back to the Future" was priceless. He seems to be talking for us. Miles is trying to explain to us that you can't change anything, but they just haven't experienced Little Ben being shot.
So Jack has been called on to save Ben again. What happened to his Hippocratic Oath?
Hurley/Miles scene is priceless! Hurley is as confused as we are! And he actually stumps Miles with THE question about Big Ben not remembering it was Sayid who shot him as Little Ben! Hurley is the fan voice! Love this!
So Roger is feeling guilty. I thought we are supposed to hate him.
Interesting that Kate and Juliet are working together to save Ben.
I, too, am sick of that marina scene!
Poor Kate: Every parent's worse nightmare. If that was supposed to be a Claire look-a-like, she sure was scary looking! I know that Kate was supposed to think it was was Claire, but when she turned around I thought
Botox! LOL
Love Hurley's parting shot to Juliet: "Ask him questions about time travel." LOL
So Jack finally believes in destiny. "I came back because I was supposed to."
So Richard doesn't answer to Ellie or Charles. They are still there.
The TEMPLE! Yes!
I liked this ep, though it was simpler than a lot... it feels like the pace and intensity of the season is building.
Anyway, Melissa asked about The Staff... The station wasn't actually refered to as that so I guess it's not definate that it is the same one... but I'd say the medical station was more research type of stuff, and the Dharmaville infirmary was for the run of the mill stuff. If the medical station was more like a hospital than the infirmary then why don't the pregnant women go there instead of going off island?
Loving that we see the temple again, and loving seeing Richard again... and Ben's face was priceless
Morning LoCos.
Young Wallace I'm with you about Jack, but the fact that he is acting a little like Ben and Locke does have me scared. People first, not Island first!
LostIt -- Jack operated on Old Ben for Kate, to save her and fix her Sawyer is about to die and she's locked in a cage problem.
As for Kate and Aaron I think she told Jack that a) so that she didn't have to talk about it then, and that b) she wants to fix the problem of missing Claire and not let Jack fix it. While I agree it was melodramatic I think Kate is trying to stop using the men in her life and do something on her own. About time, I know, but I'm glad to see it.
As for the Others saving Ben, I agree that Juliet must know something, remember that she thinks Jacob cured her sister's cancer. I think she had concluded from a time paradox standpoint that Ben had to be saved, she couldn't do it, so if DI didn't save him, the Others must have.
Thinking about Richard taking Ben's innocence creeps me out. So the Island is Eden and they're going to make him eat from the tree of life and then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Maven -- the Hippocratic Oath says do no harm once you're doing something, but it doesn't require every doctor to save every person in the world. Juliet was acting out of her oath by doing everything she could even though in 30 years she'll try to talk Jack into letting him die on the table. Ironic, huh?
So will taking Ben's innocence lead to the fertility problems? Or is that still Purge residue? Or Jughead?
Lost2010 this is for you especially. But I'm betting more than just Jack and Sayid will find the sentiment to be true.
Don't forget that Darlton wrote last night's episode so all the time travel rules that Miles went through are THE rules we're dealing with.
Good morning all!
Ha, ha - Mr. Mel borrowed the computer right after the episode ended last night, and then I fell asleep!
I have to say, I kind of like the new, I-don't-put-up-with-any-crap Jack. I think he may have actually taken Sawyer's words to heart about not running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Kate, however, has not learned that lesson yet.
I was happy to see more of Miles last night, and it's interesting to get another hint that Daniel was around at least long enough to explain some of his theories. I also loved Miles handing Hurley the gun and saying "Shoot me." :)
I did believe Kate when she said that she was going back for Claire, but I think she meant it in a broader sense - not that she was going back JUST for Claire, but for everyone they left behind. I think she finally came to the same conclusion that at least Jack and Hurley seemed to have come to - it was wrong to leave everyone else behind.
Lastly, small spoiler, but good news:
According to Ausiello, we WILL find out what happened to Rose and Bernard!
Also, I'm thinking that the reason that Locke and Christian remember everything, while Ben won't, is that they were both dead when they came to the island and were resurrected (or something) somehow. Ben's not dead yet, so whatever they have to do to save his life must be what causes his memory loss.
At the end of the episode, when Locke said "welcome back to the land of the living," and Ben started at him, did anyone else think that Ben was going to say "Who are you?" I was totally waiting for that! Along those same lines, when Richard had his back to the temple, right before he kind of shouldered his way through the door carrying Ben, I really thought he was going to disappear, or get beamed up or something. :)
BTW how did Miles know that Ben turned the wheel?
Even Locke didn't know what Ben did.
I'm guessing it's a continuity error.
Interesting Sayid's Girl, then again Miles talks to dead people. Maybe one of them told him. More likely Daniel theorized about it before he went wherever he is now.
So do you think the normal DI members, other than Roger, will learn that it was Ben who freed Sayid?
I'm officially as tired of Patsy Cline being the only thing Kate listens to as of that pier scene. When Kate sings Catch a Falling Star to baby Aaron (and how cute is he?) it is creepy. Do you think she'd heard Claire sing it back on the beach? It's not like it's part of the American Lullaby Songbook.
I'm starting to wonder if what the Others are going to do is going to involve a time restart of sorts which will explain the memory lapse for both Ben and possibly also for the rest of the DI.
Oh I know. I thought Patsy Cline again?!
I was wondering about the lullaby too did she say anything about it when they went to the medical statioin with Danielle?
And yes it was creepy.
Maybe the DI that survived the purge were taken to the temple.
I'm interested in finding out what happens in there.
So I think Ben's memories of the 815ers helping him are what will be gone which is why he won't have any sympathy for them when they crash. I really think this is going to involve a time reset back to the day before the 815ers flash into 1977 which makes me wonder what will happen to the LBs who were already in 1977. The Other (I was really hoping he'd be Paul) says that Richard should talk to Ellie first. That's because Mrs. Hawking is the Time Lord. Richard is going to mess with time which won't make her happy. Then that Other says "if Charles finds out." So Charles' role is different. I bet they've already done whatever they're going to do to Ben to Charles, so Charles will no longer be unique. That's why he'll be so mad.
I really, really, really want it to be next Wednesday. But not so much that I'm willing to watch the previews.
Memphish,I also passed on the next weeks preview.
It seems that when one gets an "Other" makeover,it makes them quite "Otherly".(The first symtom of this "sickness" seems to be a complete loss of fashion sense,then loss of memory, and innocence).I think that Ethan is an example of one who will be getting the makeover,i.e. strength and creepiness.
And,Juliet may be more of an Other than we thought.
Symptom
I don't know if Richard is going to make Ben immortal or ageless like himself in the Temple. Obviously, Ben ages by growing up into the Ben we've known and Richard has always remained the same. But, once saved/resurrected by the Others always an Other! I half expected Paul to be among the group thinking that Richard demanding his body was a way to increase his people's numbers on the island.
Also find it interesting that all the 06ers have been involved somehow in creating the Ben Linus we know as an adult. They all were responsible to eventually getting him to Richard and the Others.
when hurley and miles had their time travel paradox discussion they left out one option. Either this all happened just like this, they changed things and will cease to exist in 1977, or the one they left out(they changed things, but they stay right where they are just displaced from their proper timeline). To me it all goes back to daniel and his rat eloise. WE all know that after dan zapped her with his ray and she performed the maze that he "intended" on teaching her, she died of the time flash bloody nose before he could actually teach her the maze. This is an example of the third option where eloise is displaced form her proper timeline. If the back to the future option was true, eloise would have disappeared right after she died because she was a product of a timeline that no longer existed, the one where dan actually taught her the maze.
For me it really comes down to 2 questions. Do the others put "changed forever, an other" ben back as a sleeper in dharma to ultimately do the purge and hence what happened happened. Or did Ben's timeline get changed and he is indoctrinated earlier then expected into the others, thus being spared years of rogers abuse. It could go either way considering ben on purge day already seemed pretty indoctrinated into the others.
To me it seemed to make more sense why Ben made jack hate him in 2004, if jack would have saved him, ben would have stayed with dharma longer and perhaps lost his leader status with the others/ It's unclear to me if Ben is more a part of the others after they save and change him then he was had the lb's never come back. This also goes for sayid, becasue being shot coupled with jack not saving him, gave Ben some serious serendipity mojo with richard, like this "ben has to be the chosen one". I'm still trying to figure out if this is how Ben originally took locke's birthright from him. Did richard mean Ben will always be an other even after he's banished. This ep also explained why Ben injected himself so much into the 815'ers lives so kate and sawyer would really want to save him for fear of losing all the things that happened in their past's.
I think it was important that hawkings and widmore seem to be the leaders of the others and richard resents them. Make's hawkings seem more sinister. What's the deal with daniel, he must have already been born in 1977? It also shows why Richard helped kate and ben in last seasons finale because he remembered kate bringing him teen Ben if this already happened.
i wonder if Ben being on deaths door in the past is related to his getting judged in the present by the island. perhaps the island can see time all at once like the tralmaphradorians in slaughterhouse five and is going to judge if his tweaks to the timeline and sins were worth the bother. It seems to me that the timetravel we see gives the window for paradoxes but kills the person or rat in the present to prevent catastrophic paradox. Put simply if Ben gets judged negatively the island will kill him in 2007 and 1977 and sweep the paradox under the rug.
I have to also think that Ben won't remember the lb's because if they like the timeline like it is they need to not send back the lb's this time around so nothing changes, but they wont dissappear. It will just be like the eloise paradox, ben will have been shot and delievered to richard by people that never were in 1977. I think this is a definite possability
why couldn't they send for the doctor at the looking glass station? do they need the sub to pick them up? With van's you could probably drive there quick. Is the hole that smokey tried to pull locke into the site of the temple in 2004? someone would have to have seen it in 2004, if it's still visible
Exactly 2costa, how long does it take to get from the LG to Otherville? :-D
Good points everyone! I have to digest this one some more after a reviewing today.
Interesting idea about getting Paul's body back to revive him and keep up the native numbers, hmmm. I wonder if in the future when a pack of Hostiles is around, someone will say his name (I wouldn't recognize his face if I tripped over him!)
The thing that bothers me about the New Jack, is that he's merely behaving in the typical kneejerk psychological reaction to finally realizing that his old way didn't work. As in, you're doing the exact opposite extreme out of frustration, when your normal behavior doesn't work. And, it seems like jsut another version of pouty Jack to me, heheh. I'd be surprised if this is the Jack that will remain, hopefully the pendulum of his emotions will settle in the middle somewhere and not reside at either extreme.
And actually, Kate did like the old island Jack, she just didn't like the old whiney-boozer-loser Jack, IMHO. :-)
I wondered about that too 2Costa, but if dude couldn't do a C-section he wasn't going to be much help anyway. He could just swim up from the Looking Glass if they'd really needed him, right?
I see what you're saying about Jack Capcom, but I respectfully disagree. Whoever said Kate liked the Jack (and Sawyer) she could manipulate was spot-on. That's the only time the old Kate actually liked either of them. Kate kept a 3 year relationship with Cassidy and Clementine secret from the guy she agreed to marry. That's what I loved about how Juliet was unwilling to lie to James.
That's OK! But that's kind of what I meant, Jack got really controlling ("Who's on the phone?!") when he was boozing and she resented it, etc. On the island before things got really crazy, she had Jack "wrapped", and she was shocked when she lost that control which was shown by how after Jack worked with Juliet, Kate sits there all girly licking the spoon and smiling, teehee, and Jack just goes "Meh" and walks away. :o) Then she jumped back to Sawyer again. :-p So I agree with you there.
memphish - Help us Obi-Wan, you're our only hope. :)
I've decided the best line of the night was, "You didn't like the old me."
Translated - -"Yeah sweetheart, I just remember that you weren't always WITH me, part of the time, you were doing unmentionable things with Sawyer in a bear cage on camera while I had to watch."
Preview spoiler alert for memephish.
That is if anyone watched the preview to give an opinion.
If Ben came back to the island to be judged, do you think Smokey will be the one to judge him?
END OF PREVIEW SPOILER
SG - That's what I got out of it! Absolutely CAN NOT wait!!! Ben is like J.R. Ewing and Darth Vader all rolled up into one. :) The ultimate villain. . .glad he's not dead. . .what kind of a show would it be without him?
Sayidsgirl....well, if I ever believed anything that he said, that is what I would guess too. :o)
Thanks for the preview warning. :-)
Capcom, I've thought since mid-Season 3 when Kate "committed" to Sawyer, her relationship with Jack has been pretty toxic. Way back in that stinker, Eggtown, Sawyer called her out on it pretty good when she was be-bopping back and forth between the the two of them. Kate summarized it pretty well last night -- she doesn't understand Jack, and Jack's never really understood her.
I think Jack really started slipping from the pedestal I'm put him on, possibly unfairly, early in Season 3 when it became obvious as he stalked Sarah that he had no idea how to be in a grown-up relationship. While I don't fault TPTB for creating a flawed hero, Jack has always been a character of extremes which makes him hard to relate to as a real person. I guess his extreme indifference now is actually in character. As his dad told him, Jack commits, he just can't find the balance of when to let go.
most def yes sayid's girl, the other time in the barracks he didn't have to worry because he hadn't been banished yet so he didn't break the rules by coming back yet...
im thinking that hurley's dave and maybe jacob may be people that only exist on the island and in people's heads because they are time line refugees that lost their original timeline, maybe even richard for that matter.
Am i the only one that's disturbed that hawkings is a "leader" of the others still with widmore in 1977, did ben trick them to turn the wheel together. Does hawkings let "probably lying" ben go back because she doesn't have the stones to break the rules? WAs daniel born on the island. To be a mullet wearing oxford professor in 1996, he'd have to at least be 20-22, and that's if hes a child prodigy. Maybe being a child prodigy is why he thought his fellow professors were messing with him when desmond came a calling, they resent how quickly he became a professor.
Exactly Memphish. :-)
Maybe Widmore and Hawking's timelines are out of order too. Maybe that explains Daniel and Penny's ages. If you can die in 1977 after you lived 2007 why can't you reproduce in 1984?
So are Daniel and Penny supposed to be brother and sister now? I'm confused.
Or are Hawking and Widmore brother and sister?
I still think the explanation for the kids being the wrong ages may be that somehow they left the island at a wrong angle and lost some years or gained years depending on what craft they left on.
Oh! I had a theory.
Remember when Locke saw the eye of the island and it was beautiful?? Are we sure that he wasn't drug down into the temple and smoked?
I never keep good track of Locke so I couldn't remember.
Another preview spioiler warning
What do you think of Ben telling 1986 Danielle she should be greatful she's alive?
Or at least that's what the preview seems to be showing I'm not sure because it looks like present day Ben saying it. So it may be one of those trick edits.
END PREVIEW SPOILER
Sg - I missed that one. I didn't know who X was talking to. So, if bleep's bleep got bleeped, and bleep got bleeped. . .wonder why bleep bleeped bleep. . . .
lost2010
LOL
I know it's hard to discuss and respect others feelings.
Next weeks episode seems like it's going to be really good.
Much better than this weeks. This weeks was another less violent catch up episode. There wasn't much meat to it for me anyway.
They showed bleep right before x was speaking.
Sg - Oh you know I loved this one. . . I'm a closet Triangle-junky. . .but next week looks even better. :)
lost2010
I know you are. ;)
I'm glad you get some episodes that please you too.
That's the good thing about this show it gives you a little bit of everything.
Just wanted to check in and say that I loved this episode.
You all have done a great job pointing out all of the exciting, funny, touching, and creepy moments, I don't have more to add. I feel like LOST is back!
Plus, next week's promo...one of the most exciting promos ever?
Sayid's Girl, this episode seemed to really rub you the wrong way. I can't remember, did you like last week's? You aren't alone BTW, Mo Ryan who writes for the Chicago Tribune really disliked last night's episode too.
I agree that next week's preview looks very exciting!
And again, I'll caution - those of you who are spoilerphobes - DO NOT read the name or description of next week's episode!
Sayid's Girl - the answer to one of your questions can be found in one of those pieces of information, if you really want to know.
memphish
Last weeks episode was so so for me too. It didn't really give us much until the end. Pretty similar to this week.
They built Oldham up to be this horrible scary person and he gives Sayid an LSD laced sugarcube.
I know Jack is your favorite character but he has always got on my last nerve (as well as Locke) and that hasn't changed for me. I don't much care for selfish Kate either.
Juliet who I hated and didn't trust at first is now my favorite female character. Off island she was whiny and needy now she tough.
Sorry if I've been too negative I wasn't meaning to be.
melissa
Thanks
But I'll avoid the title and description if I can. I even block the screen on Wed.night so I don't see your post for the night when I open the comments.
Knowing it will be answered is good enough.
I know the title, but I haven't read the description. I did watch the preview and, if you can avoid them all week on ABC, good luck!
You're right maven if you watch ABC at all you're going to see the preview. It's on day or night.
I don't watch anything else on ABC, so I'm free and clear. Sayid's Girl, you sound a lot like Mo Ryan, those characters are not on her favorite list as well.
I'm not sure who my favorite character is at the moment. Jack's been off my list since mid-S3 when he returned from Othersville and was a total jerk. I've done a total 180 on Juliet this season. I'm a total Sawliet-er. I guess Hurley's my favorite. I've never been mad at him I don't think. In truth I like how much I've changed my opinion on most characters over the course of the series. Good job writers.
Heheh, me to Memphish, sometimes I feel (almost) as fickle as Kate about the characters. Very good writing.
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