On tonight's episode, one of the survivors goes rogue and acts alone, risking the lives of everyone on the island.
So, pretty much every episode, right?
Guesses? He's our who? Who's our you? He's whose you?
Here we go again!
Wednesday, March 25, 2009
He's Our You - Season 5, Episode 10
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If only my wife weren't so into Idol. We'll probably have to get through the whole show before we start LOST.
Looking forward to it. Yay!
second
I can't wait, but I have to because it's only 6 o'clock here :(
Whew! Just in time!
oops- well I would've been second if I hadn't taken so long to type that comment.
Have fun all you EST'ers and CST'ers!!!
I'm here!!! just in time, too!
Don't tell me Sayid is going to make Ben into what he becomes.
A real flashback. Wow!
And new timeline info. Ben has been on Island since at least '73.
Oh Sayid's Girl -- not another circle Kelvin to Sayid to Ben!
Kid Ben even has a plan. . . creepy.
He always has a plan Lost2010.
Here! No bad weather yet, just a little signal interrupt once in a while. *whew!*
xxoo
Sniff sniff. . .it's all over. .. the playing house. sniff.
Agree Lost2010.
Interesting pic on the front, Ben looks like he's standing in one of those magnetic Mystery Spots. :o)
That hurt just looking at that head-butt
That makes the popup episode wrong.
It said Ben was 10 when he came to the island.
Ten and four is 14 not 12.
Who couldn't see that coming? LOL
capcom - Not much to pick from photo wise this week - but that was definitely the most interesting!
Deja vu, Bill gave this speach to Beatrix in Kill Bill. :-)
Is he going to kill Ben's daddy?
Well, not if whatever happened happened. . .
Hey! It's Larry!!
BTW - Anybody catch the book little Ben gave to Sayid?
Sayid's tied to a tree in the jungle of mystery by Larry and Phil is his brother Darryl and Radzinsky is his other brother Darryl.
Does that mean Lost is going to end with Sawyer waking up next to Susan Planchette?
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it means.
Was that Billie Holiday on the record player?
That was a low blow Jim.
But not lower than Ben.
Better buckle up Sayid.
So will they believe Sayid's crazy story?
lost2010
hmmm you have a point.
But something must be going to change, why else are they in the 70's?
I thought they were supposed to be there to fulfill destiny not to change it. . .but maybe they can change it. . .guess we'll find out. . .
Hey, everyone! I'm here too. So far so good.
A rule of law!?
Half a dropper! LOL!
No. Sawyer. . .what are you doing?
I missed it - who did Radzinsky want to call?
And whoever said that his first name was Stuart - good call!
Is that anything like he book of laws?
It was 2Costa that knew Stuart.
Now, Ben's going to have to break him out. . .
They can't just kill Sayid, can they? Yikes!
Mel,
Ann Arbor Mi.
Radzinsky was going to call An Arbor
2costa
Knew it was Radzinsky before we did too. Before the episode Sawyer went out to talk to Richard.
Oh, Ann Arbor, Mi. I thought An Arbor was another station.
Ah, thanks TAV. I thought I caught "Arbor."
Ann Arbor Michigan, home of the University of Michigan where Gerald and Karen DeGroot both teach, research and reside. And since when did people put truth serum on sugar cubes??? Timothy Leary & co used sugar cubes as a delivery system for LSD last I heard...???
xxoo
Maybe changing things does fufill destiny.
Ben
"Three years no burnin buses. Ya'll are back for one day!"
Love it!
Ellen
Yeah really. (sugar cube)
ok, 'nuff commercials now...I hope we see MORE before it ends tonight...:( It always seems to end too fast....
xxoo
I knew it was little Ben who caused the distraction! And, isn't that Ilana with Sayid in the bar?
Melissa, the book Ben gave to Sayid
A Separate Reality
Capcom...
The pic on the front of this post reminds me of
this
Twinkle, that's a really cute baby (your avi)...
xxoo
Can we trade watching Sayid kill a chicken for a few more minutes on the porch. . .nah, I didn't think so.
Noooooooo!
That was a heart shot...wow. I hate being right about that.
xxoo
I do not like Sayid anymore. I'm sorry. . .I know he's Ben, but he was just a kid.
Hmmmm.
Didn't watch the preview again, so if you can mention that you're talking about the preview I'll skim by. Thanks.
Well I guess we'll test Daniel's theories now. Did Ben lose a kidney as a child?
one way to stop the "cycle".....kill Ben before he gets going. However, maybe Ben is a "twin"......Bad Twin!!!
And did i mention, they're THERE to "atone" for things......PURGATORY!!!
Gotta go for now.
Enjoy
Peace, love and Purgatory
Nice Chuckles!
Ben is a Bad Twin?!?!
I gotta watch that again!
This was definitely my least favorite episode of the season, at least on first watch. It was awkward and Sayid's backstory just wasn't that interesting. The scenes with Ilana (or whatever her name is, I still don't freakin' know) were just icky. Ben just saying they'd killed everyone was very unsatisfying as an explanation of the Ben/Sayid fallout. I guess the fallout was Ben calling him a natural born killer. Strange though. I thought this show was about redemption. Not for Sayid apparently. I was afraid he'd shoot himself after he shot Ben. If he's really a killer he'll follow up with a headshot or a chicken neck break. We'll see.
I know Jin radioed Sawyer, but they don't have GPS in 1977, so will they know where to look for them?
Wow. Well, this was one of those violence-packed eps that I don't particularly care for. :-p
Interesting cap Blacky.
Soooooo, why the heck DID they come back, I'm starting to wonder myself.
Thanks, Black Swan! Added it to the Book Club list. ;)
Yikes! I can't believe Sayid just capped little Ben!
OT - I loved Hurley's line - "They live together... and not like roommates."
Okay, I have to be at work REALLY early tomorrow, so I'm off to bed. Good night!
I'm going to have to sleep on that.(?) Wow!
Sorry to leave when it's just getting good.I know the comments from the Central, and West Losters will be awesome too.
I'm off to dream some fantastic dreams." Nite all.
Well, the only decent surgeon they seem to have is cleaning toilets at the moment. . .so Ben's chances of survival look slim. . .
I was kind of expecting that, but wasn't sure it would happen.
If the island isn't done with Ben will he be dead? Right now we only know he was shot.
I agree Memphish, with your entire paragraph.
So do you think Jack would save Ben? He hasn't been listening to 3 years of Daniel going what happened, happens. Jack has all the reasons Sayid does to let Jack die and he's come close to killing Ben at least 3 times. Why blow his cover to save Ben? Especially since the DI were going to kill Sayid.
I guess Sayid figures that if he kills Li'l Ben, there will be no big Ben? What will happen to big Ben, does he go *poof*? Sigh. No wonder Daniel left, this stuff is getting too wacky.
I guess that's future-Ben's only hope, if Jack comes to the rescue.
Thanks for the book link Blacky. I've read some Castaneda books, but not that one.
I can't decide if I'd want Jack to save Ben or not. I guess that's the question I need to ponder. It's the killing Hitler (on a smaller scale, but nevertheless the same scale) question. Actually it's a slightly different question because while a doctor takes an oath to do no harm, doctors don't have an affirmative obligation to act. But if they do act, they must act properly.
I am on the West Coast....Still hasn't come on here, but from the comments, seems like an interesting episode!!!
I think this was just an episode to bring us up to speed with what happened with Sayid.
We already know what happened with everyone else from earlier episodes.
omg!
I can't believe it...but Ben can't die, the Island still needs him..I kept waiting for the bullet to bounce off, and maybe just stun Ben. But when he fell forward...yikes!
How ironic if Jack gets pressed into saving Ben's life the way Juliet got pressed into delivering Ethan? Maybe Juliet attends Ben in the hospital, and that's when his crush on her starts...
I too think they gave Sayid LSD as their "truth serum". Weren't psychedelics the truth drug of choice back then?
LOL tell the truth, and most people won't believe you anyway! Crazy story...from the future...ha ha
hey Chucklez!!
It'll be interesting to see what happens to older Ben if young Ben dies...but then again, whatever happens, happens. My guess would be that the island probably won't let Ben die just yet, I don't know.
xxoo
Oh, I think Jack would help little Ben.. he's just a kid! And above all Jack is a dr., the hypocratic oath and all that.
That scene with little Ben and his Dad was brutal! I didn't think Roger Linus was that bad and abusive (I guess I just thought he ignored Ben most of the time)
lol lost2010 I couldn't for the life of me think of who the one decent surgeon was. I didn't even think of Jack.
I guess we had seen the emotional and verbal abuse Ben had suffered at the hands of Roger the Workman...and now we know there was physical abuse too. So I guess that might be an excuse for becoming a homicidal sociopath,eh?
and Jack has abandoned many rules along the way, Black Swan...least of all the hypocratic oath now...
Well, after the initial shock. I'm going to guess that the island may heal him. . .and maybe that's another reason the OTHERS decide he's so special. . .
Why did Sayid have to beat up Jin anyway?
This was one of those upsetting episodes. . .
Yes, tonight's abuse revealed a new layer of Roger, yuk.
Too bad Sayid didn't know that taking a kid out of an abusive environment is the way to keep them from becomming abusive. And actually, Ben was right, he didn't make Sayid do all that killing, he was very willing to become the tool of revenge.
I thought for sure that some kind of switchblade was going to pop out of Ilana's boot at Sayid. :o)
He did beat up Jin he just knocked him out.
He doesn't want to get captured. Jin doesn't know what's going on.
I wonder where he'll end up now?
This is going to change everything in Dharmaville.
memphish said...
I can't decide if I'd want Jack to save Ben or not. I guess that's the question I need to ponder. It's the killing Hitler (on a smaller scale, but nevertheless the same scale) question.
What you are talking about here is called 'counterfactual history'. It is about theorizing the 'what ifs' of changing history. I found out about it when researching the Black Swan theory. Ever since then I've been wondering if this is what the Island is all about. Instead of 'in theory' how would the world be changed 'if' such and such didn't ever happen, with the special properties of the Island you can have an actual answer by really changing things. Think of the power such an ability would be!
A2BH - don't know about "the truth serum of choice" but I do know that the earliest trials and for several years afterwards, sugar cubes were used for LSD, and other psychedelic drugs. Especially during the "research" years (ha-right!). I think that Timothy Leary had a lot to answer for when he died. He changed an entire generation and not for the better. That's the one thing I detested about the 60's-70's. The rest was great- the music, my friends, etc. but the drugs were deadly.
My friend who watches Lost mentioned that perhaps the guy, Oldham, lived out in the woods so maybe he had his own little concoction going on...
xxoo
xxoo
I don't care what Dan said, the Losties going back in time has changed everything. The Universe is really going to have it's work cut out for it trying to course-correct from here on out!
lost2010...because Sayid lied about LeFleur letting him escape and Jin was about to find that out. Sayid couldn't let Jin actually talk to Sawyer, now could he?
yes, very upsetting...but I did like the look into Sayid's backstory a little bit more, and we did find out confirmation of why Sayid was on the plane...Guam came a-calling! I guess that was one broken necked chicken that came home to roost!
Right Ellen, there was a bit of official psychological uses for LSD back then. In treatments under supervision, it helped people who had uncontrollable fears to open up and face them, and it actually did some good in that arena. But out in the open market without supervision in uncontrolled dosages...not so good.
Amused2bHere said...
I guess we had seen the emotional and verbal abuse Ben had suffered at the hands of Roger the Workman...and now we know there was physical abuse too. So I guess that might be an excuse for becoming a homicidal sociopath,eh?
It could lead to it.. and being shot by Sayid could lead to trust issues..
Capcom said...
Too bad Sayid didn't know that taking a kid out of an abusive environment is the way to keep them from becomming abusive. And actually, Ben was right, he didn't make Sayid do all that killing, he was very willing to become the tool of revenge.
Yep, I agree with you!
I'm actually feeling sorry for poor little Ben.
I agree, Capcom. I'm starting to think that perhaps they could be the cause of many bad things that happened on the Island.
xxoo
I will add this to the list with
Eggtown, Stranger in a Strange Land, and The Constant. . .
advanced the story I'm sure but not fun to watch.
I knew things couldn't stay all happy hippie flowery.... darn it!
I disagree with the Constant, lost2010!
I'm betting that young Ben must not die. If he does, Juliet will disappear because her presence on the island was all Ben's doing. If he hadn't brought her there, she wouldn't have flashed into the '70s. And who knows what would happen to all the other Losties.
I'm thinking that Richard might save Ben - maybe bring him to the temple for some special ritual or something.
"happy hippie flowery" LOL!!That's funny Black Swan!
This was a very dark episode. It left me feeling very "unsettled." I wonder if that's what Darlton intended?
xxoo
What if Ben's been dead all along? What if 3 days from now (or however long it took Christian and Locke to resurrect) Ben comes back to life there in the jungle? Got to work around Jin here, but what if Alpert's people take Ben's body and then send him back to the DI as the new Ben!
Larry in the jungle reminded me of Locke's sweat lodge. I was hoping it was going to be the pot farm head instead of Larry.
Sayid's shooting Ben is probably a contributing factor in Ben turning out the way he did. (Assuming, of course, that Ben survives)
Thanks, Ellen! It's my son from years ago.
RE: Ben - I agree. The island probably will heal him. Look what the island's done for Locke. Nothing has happened that hasn't already happened.
I guess now we know for sure that it wasn't Sayid that beat up Ben after the docks. I'm anxious for Penny.
Are they no longer showing pop-up episodes?
Lostit, yes! the temple!!
Ellen, I feel unsettled, too. I'm sure that's how we're supposed to feel!
memphish, I like it!!
I missed the first part with Sayid and the chicken (I take it it was when Sayid was young?) Would anyone care to write a short synopsis? thanks in advance!
Wow, wouldn't that be an intersting causal loop, Lostit!
For Ben to die is a huge paradox. . .
If Ben dies and Widmore stays in charge. . .Widmore is on the island. . .his daughter Penny isn't off falling in love with Desmond and Desmond certainly has not reason to go on a boat race to get his honah' back.
If Desmond doesn't land on the island, he isn't the designated button pusher. And he doesn't bring a boat for Kelvin to refurbish.
If Desmond's not there, he doesn't forget to push the button because he's off bashing Kelvin's brains in.
So, Flight 815 doesn't crash. . .
So, Ben must live. . .or we don't have a show.
I'm liking my Ben is dead theory. It explains why Widmore's mercs couldn't kill him. Widmore is dead too so Ben can't kill him.
108!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Aw man, you mean we won't be getting any screencaps of dead chickens, Blacky? Just kiddin' :o)
BTW, is Widmore on the island with Richard now, when Ben is a kid?
I think I'm done for the evening. Had an interesting ethical debate with the surgeon husband. But I like the idea of the Hostiles saving Ben, through resurrection :-), better than the 815ers deciding whether or not to out Jack as a surgeon to save Ben. When are we ever going to see Locke again?
Chicken scene:
Big Iraqi kid is told by his father that he is old enough to kill a chicken - given a knife and told to kill one.
Big Iraqi kid stands there looking pitiful.
Little short Iraqi kid lays down some grain to lure the chicken. . .picks it up. . .and wrings its neck. . .
Hands the chicken to the big kid.
Father comes out and is proud of the big kid.
Big kid denies killing the chicken and indicates short kid did it.
Father makes some crack about "at least one of you will be a man" and addresses the smaller boy as "Sayid."
I'm on board with Ben's betrayal by Sayid setting him on the path to become what he became.
Older Ben must remember Sayid. He's at an age he can remember things and was shot by him. The question is, did Ben from Season 1 realize it was the same Sayid? Now I want to go back and watch it all again, which of course is TPTB's point.
if Daniel is right, and the past can't be changed, then everything that happens, already happened and is part of the time line. right?
so...Ben can't be dead. And we've seen that 'shot' doesn't necessarily equal 'dead'. I won't believe otherwise until I see them bury the little weasel!!
LOL, capcom.. I'm afraid not! But anything after the first commercial I should be able to get (assuming my tv tuner worked.. haven't checked yet)
LostIt said...
Sayid's shooting Ben is probably a contributing factor in Ben turning out the way he did. (Assuming, of course, that Ben survives)
Yep, I agree!
memphish, I like the theory! Would you call Ben a fallen angel, then?
Memphish - that's a very interesting theory you have there!
Even though I know that Lost will end all too soon, I can hardly wait until next week to see what happens...I get really depressed when I think about Lost ending. So, on to "brighter" days, huh?
xxoo
G'nite guys. . .always enjoy watching with you.
Capcom: Yes, supposedly, if Widmore was there in 1954 at age 17 and then was their leader for 30 years. He says he left the island because of Ben's "machinations."
Lost2010, thank you soooo much!!!!!
good-night!
I was cheering when Sayid popped Ben. I mean, I am not for watching a child die but a sociopath is a sociopath
I just finished reading Vonnegut's "The Sirens of Titan" today and this show is reminding more and more of that. I was expecting that to be the book Ben had. Does anyone know what the book Ben offered was about?
Twinkle, There's a bit about it here
In "Siren" everything that will happen has happened from one perspective in time. Knowing the future and fighting against it does nothing to change it and may even help. It traces back the line of who's been manipulating who. It's a funny book but heavy.
Thanks, Black Swan.
here's a google link, twinkle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda
I meant a wiki link.. lol!
Great recap Lost2010! X-D
Not very enlightening, unless the connection has to do with the "use of plants."
Ah well, goodnight all!
I think the title has a lot to do with the book's relevance...a separate reality indeed!
xxoo
It seemed they were comparing Ben and Sayid's childhood.
Ben never tried to rise above his. I really don't think if Sayid had spared his life Ben would have changed.
Sayid tried but could never seemed to be able to accomplish it.
And the manipulations that Ben put Sayid through caused his "possible" death.
And breaking a chicken's neck to have it for dinner is a huge difference from killing someone.
My mother has wrung a chicken's neck to prepare it for dinner as a child and she didn't become a killer. So I don't think that was a good way to show Sayid's killer instinct.
I was so hoping that Sayid would be able to find his redemption.
I'm not going to give up hope the show isn't over yet. But at this rate he may not survive.
Through Ben Sayid finally gave up trying to change.
lost2010: I don't know how you could not love The Constant. Sorry. Don't get it at all.
Sayid's childhood flashback clearly mirrors Eko's. Doesn't bode well for Sayid surviving the season.
Lots of great one-liners tonight; odd for such a violent episode.
I think I know what's going to happen in the finale. Open the link if you want to read my blog post.
http://tinyurl.com/c5kv99
I'm glad I didn't know the title. I think I might have figured it out. Knowing it was a Sayid episode.
So after reading all the comments (so far) and thinking about it immediately after the show ended, I think the only conclusion is that Ben either doesn't die or is resurrected. There just seems like no way to try to untie the whole story in ~20 more episodes.
In general, I agree that this wasn't a very engaging, edge-of-your-seat episode. [ASIDE: When they first announced that they had set an end date for LOST, I thought it was a good thing. They knew where they were going and how many episodes they would have to get there, so they wouldn't meander as much. Now I'm starting to think they feel like they're running out of time to say everything they want to say. Can't we just tack on one more season?] Anyway, I don't think I have much to say about this episode, other than they've got some 'splainin to do.
I agree Sayidsgirl about killing a chicken for food. I guess TPTB were just trying to show that little Sayid had no hesitation? To me it's as weak a link as setting up Sun to be a liar by how she fibbed to escape a spanking, cuz what kid in all of the history of humanity hasn't done that? But I guess it's as good of a setup as any for TPTB to use.
LOL Wallace. And I agree, to fulfill all of our dreams and answer all of our questions, one extra season please. :-)
Sayid'sgirl, we don't know that Sayid won't change.. It's not over 'til it's over!
good call, Kyle.. I wouldn't be surprised if you are right!
Re: Ben. I don't want him to live because A) it'd be too tidy to just have him POP! be okay, and B) Doc Jensen's mirror theory of the 6 seasons wouldn't hold up to his survival. On the other hand, every major death accompanied a finality for that character. I don't think we've been given that finality for Ben yet. So, as unsatisfying as it will probably be for him to live, he'll probably live.
Young Wallace... YES!! We need another season!!!!
capcom
You're right the set up of Sun being a liar is weak also.k
Black Swan
I haven't given up hope for Sayid. It just looks bleak right now.
Good night all. I'm going to rest my back.
Talk to you all later.
If you look at Sayid's childhood in comparison to Eko's, it makes more sense. Both men were ultimately mistaken about what their lives to that point had made of them. Eko thought he was blameless and virtuous, when he did in fact kill a man (many men), and even in dire circumstances those kinds of actions demand a more serious penance than building a church out of sticks.
Sayid, on the other hand, felt that his life made him a bad man, fated to doing bad things, when in fact all he needed to do was remove himself from those situations. Killing a chicken for food, as you pointed out sayidsgirl, is not the same as killing a man. Even though Sayid killed many men, look at where we found him in 2007: doing charity work building real houses.
Both Sayid and Eko are flawed men, both in their actions and in their own estimation of the worth of those actions. I really believe that it's not going to work out any better for Sayid than it did for Eko. That would be just as ballsy a move for TPTB to make as it was to kill Eko (even if AAA didn't want to be part of the show anymore in the background of it all).
Hope you feel better Sayidsgirl! Take it easy tomorrow.
So do you think Smokey's gonna get Sayid like it did with Eko?
Something's gonna get Sayid. I'm starting to feel it.
Ruh-roh, good question Lostit. He is in the woods now.
Think about this... it's all an illusion. Sayid tonight is given LSD to speak the truth. LSD was created by Timothy Leary and get this with a Dr Richard Alpert who later became Baba Ram Das and wrote "Be Here Now" in the late 60's. So why is this version of Richard Alpert in charge on the island in the 70's and tells Widmore & Ben what to do? Strange paradox!
Gotta love Sayid shooting little Ben to change the future, but a hell of a way to leave us guessing
Good-night Sayid'sgirl, hope your back feels better!
Interesting Anon.
G'nite all, and ditto what Lost2010 said, it's great to be able to watch with you all!
Ben is not dead - and I think, not even wounded. If he were dead, incredible paradox ensues, as already well documented above. Scratch.
If he were actually wounded, he would have to be healed - which leads to two likely options and both are not good:
1) He goes to the others and they heal him, which doesn't work on two levels: a) he can't stay with the others because he has to be an adult in the DI to help orchestrate the purge; b) he can't be healed and return because there is no plausible explanation (see #2). Scratch.
2) He is rescued by DI and healed (by Jack or otherwise), which doesn't work because, again, what is the explanation - it would be revealed that he was helping Sayid escape and that he was planning on defecting. Although I have to admit I like the prospect of the symmetry of Jack operating on Ben to save his life in both the present and the past, this also wouldn't work because then it would be revealed he is a surgeon, not a janitor. Scratch.
So, Occam's Razor says that the simplest solution is that Ben is not wounded. He gets up (with Jin's help) and returns to the DI with a grudge against Sayid and a life's lesson that it doesn't pay to help anyone but yourself.
How is he not wounded? Again - the easiest solution is the ol' "Bible" under the coat trick. Ben was planning on leaving the DI for good - in all likelihood he took his most prized possessions with him, which undoubtedly includes one or more books. He had them tucked under his sweatshirt, and they took the bullet. Also why there was no blood shown in the very, very long time it took for Ben to hit the ground. Also why there was no exit wound out his back - a scrawny tweener probably would not take and retain a bullet at close range, otherwise. He just got the "wind knocked out of him."
Anyway, just my theory... ;-)
Betcha the book in little Bens jacket is "Be Here Now"!
Okay, if you do a little poking around on this "separate reality" business, you'll find that it is related to some Mayan/Aztec ancient mysticism involving psychotropic plants, shapeshifters, and shamanism. Hmmm, see any Lost motifs in there?
I think it is especially interesting that in the same episode as the book there is a tent of a "medicine man" who administers a psychotropic drug to someone.
The author's follow-on book (Journey to Ixtlan - still the same general theme) is about how once a person "breaks through" and truly "sees" reality that they can't really go "home" - they just can't relate to those people and their old way of life. As a so-called "man of knowledge", they are changed and unable to connect to common people. Also sound familiar?
Interesting little morsel they tucked in there tonight...
Hmm, I had never heard of this Carlos guy, nor his books - but I guess he was a pretty big deal for hippies and the start of the New Age movement:
Recent Salon.com article about him
oh...my...gosh! My brain is really gonna hurt after this one isn't it?!
going to catch up....bbl
Being the librarian that I am, I saw Castaneda and immediately went "oh lord here we go" in my brain. If there's an author who's even harder to deconstruct and even trippier than Philip K. Dick (see: VALIS), it's Carlos Castaneda.
I like the "book in the shirt" idea. A lot. But only if it's a really meaningful book, like the ones mentioned above. If it's just another touchstone text like Catcher in the Rye or some shit, I'll be disappointed.
What a cliffhanger ending! Ben cannot be dead! It would change so much in the island's history. But Sayid would not have missed at such a close range, so Ben couldn't just be stunned and fainted (although I did not see much blood on rewatching the scene). Do like the idea of Bad Twin! LOL
Some notes:
The chicken killing scene was just to show the Sayid always took killing easily, unlike his brother. Nice segue way from killing a chicken and getting a chicken salad sandwich from Young Ben.
So Ben always has a plan.
Ben tells Sayid he is free (in Santo Domingo) and then we cut to Sayid behind bars.
Sayid is drinking MacCutcheon when Ilana shows up.
We have to call Ann Arbor=DeGroots?
It was strange to me that Young Ben says about Roger: "I really hated him." He's talking about him in the past tense. You would think he would say "I hate him."
I did like a little of the backstory with Sayid...finding out why in the world he was going to Guam. And I liked his uneasiness for being on that flight with the other 06.
Ok I'm not sure I have much to add. The burning van reminded me of Walt burning the raft in Season 1- although other than fire I don't think there are many parallels there.
It seems we're all agreed that there is no way Ben can stay dead (if he is indeed dead).
I can kind of get behind the book in the jacket theory, because I too wondered about the lack of blood. And cdbosh brings up a good argument on it.
If there is no book trick then I go with memphish's theory, which is what I was thinking as well. I don't think that- based on the shot Sayid took that they could get lil' Ben to Jack in time to save him, and then there is the whole blowing their (O6) cover and all. So I think that the island/the Others will resurrect him.
One thing that is sticking in my mind, although I'm still in the dark as to it's interpretation is during the Widmore/Ben confrontation Widmore said to Ben "I know WHAT you are"...could mean a lot of things but after this episode it's opening up crazy ideas!
So we're thinking that young Ben gets resurrected ala Christian/Locke/Claire? Would kinda explain how old Ben takes so many beatings and keeps on ticking! LOL
It's really interesting how much Sawyer and Juliet had come to accept living with the DI. I know they had lived there for 3 years, but I've moved around quite a bit and there are places that it took longer than 3 years to get accustomed to. Anyway, just interesting that they didn't seem to really want to be rescued anymore...yet Sawyer still saw to it that they continued searching the grid. heh. I am sad that the happy home that was Jim and Juliet seems to be coming to a close. :(
I like the idea too that Sayid shooting Ben was what caused Ben to go to the dark side rather than it changing anything. Maybe that is why Ben set Sayid up as a killer in 2005-2007- to mess with Sayid.
I don't know- some of that time looping stuff escapes my brain's capacity, but I like the thought of it.
Kyle I'm liking your theory on the finale. I also am a fan of Doc Jensen's "mirror theory". very cool.
I think young Ben said "I really hate it here"
I think I have to agree that this is my least favourite ep of the season so far... which isn't hard actually because they've all been pretty awesome up till this point! But I usually like Sayid and there was very little to like about him in this ep and I need to process that.
Maybe little Ben can just say he was going for a walk and got caught up in a confrontation between Jin and Sayid?
maven said...It was strange to me that Young Ben says about Roger: "I really hated him." He's talking about him in the past tense. You would think he would say "I hate him."
I noticed that too. See I really think that means something like Ben knew what was going to happen...and if that is true, then maybe he does pull the book in the shirt trick to prevent getting killed. oh man, I think I need to go to bed because this is making no sense.
Oh maybe you're right Carol. I'll need to rewatch. But might have to wait til tomorrow.
Carol & Scoutpost: Carol, you're right....he does say "I really hate it here." My bad! LOL That takes care of that one.
Maybe Richard warns young Ben to protect his heart with the book trick?
Oh well thanks for clearing that up. Another mystery solved! LOL I think I must go to bed. Will catch ya'll in the morning!
Night, Scoutpost...me, too...I'm tired and it's quiet here.
Faraday said only your consciousness time travels and your body stays behind, right? Like McCouski, (sp?) and Desmond, Charlotte, and that lady at Oxford. So how is it that Sayid can even shoot Ben. Eloise wouldn't even let Desmond buy a ring. I thought Sun was gonna find everybody lying around in time travel comas. I guess I was wrong.
Morning LoCos! Hope you're feeling ok today Sayid's Girl. Take care of that back.
cdbosh - I think you're analysis of what happened to Ben is sound, but boy that would be unsatisfying.
good morning,
Sayids Girl, Feel better!
Not my favorite episode but what an ending. It was definatley unpleasant when Sayid saw ben again. After watching i am convinced that Ben killed Nadia.
Sayid is great at reading people unless its a woman. this will be the second time a woman gets the drop on him.
I have a bad feeling for my boy Sawyer, with Radinsky and his angst about spies.
Jack was incredible calm and restrained, I actually liked him for a moment. Kate not so much.
Something keeps telling me that this is all suppose to happen. Especially with the queen of course correction being the one chosing the flight and sending them all back.
Was Ben ever suppose to be the leader?
Is the time traveling more about fixing what happened with the DI or fixing what happened with the others?
Thanks guys.
I had a few spasms when I first laid down last night and I still a little stiff this mornig.
But I think I'll be alright. I just have to be careful how I move so I don't aggravate it.
It totally escaped me that Ben saw that Jin knew Sayid. Thanks to Steve at Magic Lamp for reminding me.
Another excellent point for my Ben is dead theory. Handsome Jack of Jay and Jack reminds me of Ben's 'I was born on this Island," statement. Did Ben ever tell the truth?
kyle - The original losties aren't really in The Constant. . .it's all Desmond and Daniel . . . which is fine. . . I just never can watch it without keeping my finger on the fast forward button for all those drab scenes on the mainland.
If Ben is dead like perhaps Richard, Locke, and Christian. . . then why does he age? Shouldn't he be forever young?
Since we know the incident happens between now and 1980.
The Losties going back to the 70's has to have something to do with that.
I think the shooting of Ben sets it into motion. The happy life that Sawyer has created is about to be blown to bits.
Let's not forget Phil may be a dim wit but he's been suspicisous of Jack and his group.
I could have stood a few more episodes of Sawyer and Juliet happy in Dharmaville. . .but I suppose they'd have lost the bulk of the audience with that. . .back to murder and mayhem I suppose.
I thought as Sayid was walking away, and no I'm not a psychopath too LOL, that he should empty that gun into his head. We've seen far too many people come back from injuries.
If Sayid were really a killer he would have unloaded on Ben to make sure he was dead. But instead he shot him once and then possibly had compassion for the kid. Most likely Ben will survive and it will be the last straw pushing him to the dark side, because Sayid was torn between killing and compassion. Very poetic.
Things would be so much easier if good guys were good and bad guys were bad. Humans being shades of gray makes things so tricky. I think that's partly the point of the episode.
so at this point in the 70's both richards group and horace's group have been told about time travel from one of the 815ers.
the house where they voted on sayid, was that the book club house?
radinsky should have put together that Sayid mentioned a plane right before that Jin came in looking for a plane.
Who got to and who didn't get to vote about Sayid was interesting. We got Radzinsky, Amy, Horace, James, and randos, but not Chang or Juliet. Probably means nothing, but it seemed odd to me.
For the record, I don't think Richard Alpert is the same as Christian and Locke, so I think the question of aging is still out there. Richard and his NOT being the leader makes him a different class of being from possible leaders in my book. It kind of makes me think about the Biblical difference between angels and humans.
Actually chang absence does seem odd? Because of the films he has to give off the impression of being an important individual.
Just remembered the Juliet/Kate talk, where she basically told Kate to stay away while telling her she didnt want to say stay away. they really might be meant for each other.. Gosh i sound so sappy for Sawyer/Juliet love.
Chang not being there only points to the two faces of DHARMA: the Workmen and Teachers and Mathematicians of the DI, and the people actually manning and running the research stations.
This decision was a societal one, not a research one. Chang had nothing to contribute. I wouldn't be surprised if the blue collar DI workers resented the white collar workers.
But surely Radzinsky is in the science camp if he's designing the Swan.
Oh, and last night further cemented the giant continuity screwups of having Swan logos when they haven't even decided on using that name. Chang wears the logo and so does Juliet and Sawyer's wine.
True. Maybe that division hasn't happened yet. We don't know where the Orchid construction scene takes place in the continuity. Maybe that kicks off the division. And clearly, Radzinsky's attitude represents a shift in DI culture.
Radzinsky could be just an architect, but I agree that his wackadoo-ness and level of understanding of the purpose of the Swan is too great to make such a scenario likely.
i wonder if Ben, had sayid kill someone specifically so he would get hauled to gaum later.
Sayid killing the chicken as a child was almost the exact situation that happened with sawyer killing locke's chicken(cooper) for him.
This episode was a little bit of redemption for jack from the last episode. Sawyer got cocky about how he was gonna think his way out of this mess and jack sat back and let him. It didn't work out so well for sawyer in this episode.
Although Ben as a child was way wimpier then lil' sayid, his diversion with the burning microbus was classic ben linus. I have to think this has already happened this way to the ben linus we are familiar with, Sayid, not trying to shoot Ben would have been of the beaten path. Ben wasn't supposed to leave dharma so young, it would have ruined the others plan for the purge way later. Ben needs to be part of dharma longer, this seeming betrayal by "the others" should quell those fires for a while.
I'd like to know why all the science types aren't part of the security structure of the DI. Seems strange that handful of people would determine if sayid lives or dies.
So the university of michigan at ann arbor is where the Di corporate overlords still reside? Horace seemed convinced that ann arbor would say to kill sayid as well. Seems like richard isn't the only one that is just using the truce to get what they want done, the DI seems like it is ready to break the truce when their work is done as well.
Although radzinsky now has heard the truth about sayid being from th e future he doesn't believe it, but if the purge comes to pass as well as the fall of the DI, i think radzinsky may start to believe sayid. I almost think that the incident may be the discovery that there are people from the future on the island, and the swan is designed to prevent uncontrolled time travel 108 minutes at a time.
the swan logo may be like a generic dharma logo, before the swan is erected. Remember the dharma shark had the swan logo as well. I'm thinking that the swan logo may be the banner logo of the DI, and only people that work in other stations have a different logo.
If i was going to get shot in 1977 at age 14, two time traveling doctors on the scene would be nice!
Nice about Ben not leaving DI yet 2Costa. I still can't decide if I want Juliet and Jack to try to save that not yet bug-eyed bastard. I could see Juliet with her 3 years of Daniel's what happened happens convincing Jack though.
Also nice about this coming back to Radzinsky later. We probably won't get to see that play out, but I think it's a reasonable assumption.
Has anybody identified Ilana's accents? She was sounding all Russian-y in the bar (and was that the same bar Jack went to?), then later the accent's not pronounced, but different. I really don't give 2 shakes about her or any other 316ers. I wish Frank hadn't pulled such a Sully.
Kyle said: "..I saw Castaneda and immediately went "oh lord here we go"...LOL!!!! I concur! X-D
I didn't see the size of the book in Ben's shirt, but "Be Here Now" is a pretty large square book and as far as I know hasn't ever been published in a small paperback size. I read that, and two of CC's Don Juan books.
I heard Ben say, "I really hate it here" too.
Maybe the ones who got to vote Sayid off the isalnd were mostly the security crew?
Good point about the Swan logos. Hmm.
Warning: Next week's tv/tivo/dvr guides contain what I think is a spoiler! Read at your own risk.
I also agree that the "lynch mob" meeting was very subdued and only the main characters piped in...everyone else meekly sat around listening. And why wasn't Chang there? He seems pretty high up on the DI hierarchy.
Upon rewatch, I didn't like the episode any better. Usually I like when we get to re-see things from a different perspective but I was really annoyed by the scene at the pier, again, and the airport/airplane stuff. I get the whole point was the Ben/Sayid relationship, and its circularity, but I just didn't enjoy it. It's not to say it wasn't a well-crafted, well-acted, well-executed episode, but it just didn't connect for me emotionally nor did it do much to advance the plot. I'd equate this episode with Two For the Road.
Jopinionated raises a good point -- why isn't Ilana more concerned about Sayid's disappearance after the crash? I'm not a fan of the Ben hired her theory, but I guess it seems reasonable.
Good point about why Ilana isn't more concerned with her escapee. Hmm.
I'm starting to think it's a little less supernatural and more just time travel period.
Let's say at some point Ben goes to the future. Even further into the future than we've been so far. If he sees that certain people are alive. . .and if the whatever happened happened rule applies. . .he simply knows that no matter what transpires prior to that - those people live.
No matter how close to the brink they go. . . they'll survive it.
He knows that Michael isn't going to die when he tries to kill himself because he's already seen or talked to someone in the future that tells him Michael died on the freighter. . .he knows he and Widmore can't kill each other because perhaps in that case, they've both seen the future and know that they are both alive there.
So the island isn't so much keeping them alive. . .as showing them a window on the future where they see certain people alive and know they'll survive whatever comes their way. . .
What could still be a little supernatural is that whatever Jacob is. . .he could still be a person or thing that can access many points in time at once and thus isn't completely corporeal in any of them. . .that could be where Ben's getting his information. . .and for the first time ever I'm sort of seeing where that Sawyer as Jacob thing might kind of work. . .just maybe
the island needs them there to keep the cycle going.
Ben was killed. Sayid will be the new Ben. He will lead the "Hostiles" to kill the DI folks (which now holds our Losties).
Vicious cycle.
Peace, love and Pur...rinse and repeat.
Yeah, I'm just trying to find a way to keep watching though. . .if Ben's dead, my heart's not in it anymore. First Boone, then Charlie, now Ben. . .something's just not right with the Lost world.
You can count myself and the two other LOST junkies I talk to here in Detroit as being among those who found this episode to be very disappointing.
For me, the main disappointment was with the quality of Sayid's flashbacks. When I learned that this was a Sayid-centric episode, I hoped that we would be given compelling answers to the following questions:
1. Who really killed Nadia and why?
2. What caused the falling-out between Ben and Sayid?
3. Why prompted Sayid to spring back into action and bust Hurley out of Santa Rosa?
4. Who exactly were the people that were monitoring Hurley and trying to stun Sayid with darts?
5. Why was Sayid under arrest and on Flight 316?
Questions #1 and #4 were not addressed at all. Questions #2 and #3 were covered, but those scenes between Ben and Sayid in Russia and Santo Domingo just felt lacking. There were no compelling information exchanges, the quality of the script was poor, and the acting felt off as well. I was hoping for something along the lines of the Locke/Widmore, Locke/Jack, or Locke/Ben scenes we got in the Jeremy Bentham episode, but the quality just wasn't there.
And as for how Sayid ended up on the plane, like some of you have posted, I just don't find the Ilana character very interesting (or Caesar either, for that matter), so those scenes weren't too compelling either. We all knew that at some point she was going to handcuff him or knock him out.
They did set up the mystery as to whether Ilana was being truthful (working as a bounty hunter for Avellino's family) or whether she was working for Ben. That has me mildly intrigued.
Another issue with me is how they are writing Sayid's character now. Until recently, Sayid was a complicated character, kind of a "tortured" torturer. But now, they are portraying him as someone who is simply a natural born killer and feels purposeless if he doesn't have someone to hunt down. I don't know what they're going to do with him (on the show) if that's the path they're taking the character.
One final comment: Something about this whole season feels a little off, and I think it has to do with the point posted earlier that right now, we have no clear idea what the show (overall) is about. What is the goal? I get the feeling that the show will ultimately be about "the war" that's coming between Widmore and Ben, but the plot does not appear to be moving in that direction right now. It's like this whole season #5 has no purpose other than to shed a little light on the island's past. In the past, characters were striving to get off of the island (then to get back on to the island) and we've had clearly looming confrontations (Losties vs Others, Keamy's crew vs everyone on the island). But there is nothing really driving the plot right now. It feels like we've been left adrift.
At least there was an Ann Arbor reference yesterday! (Go Blue!)
well, i've said a thousand times that they seem to have had a beginning and end to the show, but everything between is "fly by the seat of your pants" with the writers. Which explains why so much is going unanswered. they have like 7 types of shows going on at once.
Still not certain about the statue or smokey.
but still.......the island or whatever needs to have the same "sequence" of events to happen over and over.
i hae a theory about time. it is NOT linear, but circular(ish). Time as we know it is based on man's thought of linear motion (beginning and end).
However, what if every so often, circumstances and and everything else repeats itself. which is why we have deja vu and why things in the past tend to come back (like fashions, etc).
We continue going forward, because time doesn't stop and put the needle back on the begining of the record. However, it loops back (slightly) askew, to pass by "similar" pasts.
I'll stop. I'll go on and on.
The island needs them to repeat.
I need them for my theory of Purgatory. hahaha
Peace, love and Purgatory or rinse and repeat.......eh.....
I have to say if the reason Sayid needed to go back to the Island was to kill young Ben and change the timeline, at least dude figured out why he needed to go back. That's still the most nagging question of the season, as Blue Heron basically stated, what is the point especially of Season 5? They have to go back -- why?
p.s. when i said "circular(ish)"......think gyrosphere.
But a record groove is one continuous line.
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