Well, the title says it all! On tonight's episode, Locke’s fateful mission off the island as Jeremy Bentham is revealed.
Hopefully, we'll find out why Locke ended up in that coffin, how he remembers dying and who photoshopped his picture into this plane crash image.
Are we lucky enough to pick up with the Oceanic 6 on the island as well? Probably not!
Wednesday, February 25, 2009
The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham - Season 5, Episode 7
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397 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 397 of 397Yeah Locke don't kill your self until you tell me everything I need to know to manipulate the O6.
And BTW what was the last thing Locke was told before he left the island? "When has listening to Benjiman Linus gotten you a damn thing?"
Hello! Does that man ever listen?
Yes Sayid's Girl- the problem is that he listens to EVERYONE!! He needs to stop listening to some people.
It wasn't until I went to bed that I fugured out why Locke was so obsessed with the passenger list.
He wants to know if the O6 came back with him.
lost2010
You're right Kate isn't one to be giving love advise. But, she was right concerning Locke.
i was wondering why ben would kill locke, even though he was going to off himself anyway. First i thought it was to let locke die with dignity thinking he was special rather, then killing himself and not knowing. I think Ben had a much more utilitarian reason for stopping john, then killing him anyway. He wanted to get info about the island after ben had left and info regarding how they were supposed to get back. Last week Ben back in his "i know every move that's going down mode", but this week we see that a lot of that info was yielded from locke right before he killed him. Ben obviously had planned to kill jin on the freighter and seemed genuinely surprised to hear he was alive. I don't doubt that ben knew or knew of hawlkings, but he seemed surprised that she was the key. He went ahead and killed locke because he knew that it had to be done, he just wanted to insinuate himself into the situation and cut out widmore while he could(one might wonder if ben was meant to go back, because apparently whoever told hurley about the flight, never clued him in about ben going there, plus locke would have just gotten in the way on their mission back to the island alive. Obviously only some people are subject to the flashes, as evidenced by richard and the others not jumping with sawyer. The ajira survivors are seemingly on the island in 2007, where the ajira bottles were found. I think that richard telling locke he had to die was the island in 2007 as well, thats why he said they(06) were already back even though to locke they had literally just left.
It would seem that locke had to die before he went back in order to opt out of the time flashes and be in the present on the island with ben, perhaps being dead makes you more normal and less special. I think only special people are subject to the flashes. It could very well be due to some of the others injections or lack there of on the 815'ers
I think that widmore and ben both agree that they need the 06 to get back to the island, its just a question of who will use them first. I feel hawkings will help whoever she can to get the 05 back to the island, by killing abbadon and locke ben made himself irreplaceable to hawkings.
Im not convinced that abbadon is really dead, it was either a long con on locke with squibs. Take him to the grave of his only love and then kill his handler that he finally trusts, which propels locke to jack, who makes him feel like a failure, seems like a perfect way to push him over the edge towards suicide. I assume that if locke had gone back to the island alive he would have been still flashing and for whatever reason ben and abbadon wanted locke on the island in the present with the ajira people.
the outriggers were left there for a purpose, reminds me of the star trek with the lizard man, where the god like aliens left kirk on a planet to fight, but left him building blocks for weapons to fight the lizard man. The lizard man uses the planet"island" resources to make a club, but kirk uses science to make gunpowder out of some elements he found.
Lapidus and a girl taking off in an outrigger seems to show, his stupid act on the plane was a ruse, i just wonder who he works for, i used to think ben, but now i think it might be hawkings or widmore.
lol scoutpost
You've got a point there.
He never has been able to make a decision without someone telling what to do.
And when he doesn't get advise someone usually ends up dead, like Boone.
i think its possible that ben didn't know locke would be reanimated , but i doubt it. Ben saying to locke "that he has more work to do" plus widmore saying he thought ben would trick locke off the island seems to concretely show that christain is working with ben
I think Walt's the only one that really belongs on the island. I don't see how Desmond or Locke or any of the others are special to the island.
Funny, Lost2010!
TPTB have said this show is to make us think more deeply about how we define good and evil. It's possible they won't leave a single person untainted. There may not be a "good side" just varying grays. In the end it leaves the audience with no one to believe in, to root for.
Can't root for Ben or Widmore.
Can't root for Alpert.
Alpert's role is vague and he seems unable to choose good leaders. He's basically only chosen Locke as a leader because Locke showed up in the 50's and told him to.
Can't root for the island/Jacob/Christian.
Ok, so maybe Jacob said, "Help me!" because he needs rescuing from Ben and Widmore, but I'm going to need a lot more information to find the island anything more than a petty demigod.
Can't root for Locke.
Well maybe partly I can. But he's resorted to the same type of thing as Ben and Widmore (Naomi!) and I'm tired of seeing him doubt instead of telling the island to shove it's stupid expectations and let him be his own person!
Can't root for Jack or Kate.
I don't care who gets together anymore and I'm tired of the neediness.
Can only root for Desmond and Penny to stay off the island.
Kind of can root for Sawyer.
He's the one who's path of personal growth I've enjoyed the most.
All in all, I still love this show, but I hear you about not knowing who's side to be on, who to trust.
I think I finally figured out why this season hasn't been as exciting for me this year as in the past. Not that I'm not enjoying it I am.
I haven't been suprised yet.
I've seen things that I didn't expect like the bomb and the temple.
But nothing earth shattering.
I knew it was Rousseau in the Little Prince from the promos. I figured Ben killed Locke especially after I seen he had Jin's ring.
When they brought time travel into the story last year full force and said they had to go back. I figured they use a window, portal or wormhole. Something along those lines.
When they had to go back on an airplane I figured Frank would be the pilot.
I figured Jin was floating around out there somewhere. But I didn't expect Rousseau to be the one to find him.
I don't know just things like that.
Not to mention this years previews at the end of the show have been alot more revealing than in the past.
Maybe Ben killed Locke to keep Locke in the same time jump/skip that Ben himself was in. Maybe it matters whether Locke committed suicide vs. being murdered.
Good points, Sayid's girl. They're also laying down plot points that have yet to become full-fledged, make-you-stay-up-all-night mysteries - like the outriggers and the two new characters.
2costa: It looked like Ben only needed John as his way to get back to the island. Once he learned that Eloise Hawking was in LA, he didn't need John anymore to get back to the island. I don't think he did it to serve a higher purpose.
I also don't know if Ben was expecting that John would be resurrected. Guess we'll find out.
Hi All!
Again, you are smokin' on the screencaps Blacky!!
Me too Twinkle, Zig Ziglar changed my life when I was young also, I had no self-esteem and his book opened my eyes to a lot of things.
One thing that perked up my ears was Widmore telling Locke that he was a part of the original Islanders (or Hostiles as we know them). And then (of course as we know) Ben was a johnny-come-lately, and bumped him out (as we guessed). Who exactly exiled him is up for grabs I guess.
It sure does look in the screencap that the plane is near a cleared area!
Yes, I have definitely got to Youtube search that Three Stooges act Village! :-)
LOL Kyle, I noticed that nasty sawed off shotgun too! X-D
My brain just blew up when I had the thought that maybe Jack found Locke's casket in the jungle instead of CS's. Do not think that this is the case though.
SG - Yeah, when you're at the point that Kate Austin can give you love advice, maybe it's best to just give up. LOL
Twinkle - Exactly. It's hard to figure out who to root for.
I'm wondering even if Mrs.H doesn't even care whether it is Widmore or Ben who saves the island, just as long as SOMEone helps her do what she has to do. Then I don't like her so much, if that's the case.
I'm very confused, and I really look forward to somehow watching all my DVDs in chronolgical order after Lost is all over. I don't really care who is bad or good or gray, I just would like to know who is working on what side together regardless if they're good or bad. :-p
Blacky, I lightened up your two plane screencaps with Printkey and there really isn't much else to see there.
Hmmm.....question. Since SUICIDE is an "unforgivable-type" sin (can't ask for forgiveness after you're dead), then how about the fact that Ben HAD TO kill Lock so the island would accept him BACK?
And again with the "you've got work to do".
still getting a lot of "Purgatory" vibes.
peace, love and purgatory
See, I think that's where J.J. comes in. When Alias was all over - all of them were working together in some form or fashion. The appearance of sides was just sort of an illusion. That's what I'm afraid we're getting to here as well. No real sides just lots of people willing to do absolutely anything to get what they want.
Well I still wonder if there is one big task to be done- i.e. save the world type thing and it doesn't matter who does it, it just needs to get done. So it doesn't matter if it's Ben or Widmore, and doesn't matter which group of Losties does it. That could be why different groups of people all get to the island, but there are similar people fulfilling similar roles in each group (proxies for each person). But then there are certain "special" people like Locke, Desmond, Walt, Aaron, etc. who for some reason have a specific role to fill.
I agree.
I'll just sit back and eat some Valenzetti-O's while waiting for more doors to close.
All the while, throwing stuffed "Joops" at the screen.
peace, love and purgatory
gotta run. talk to you guys another time.
peace, love and purgatory.
Hey Everyone!
Long time no see... I just wanted to let everyone know that I haven't been strangled by Ben Linus ;)
Whew! That's good news Dennis, we were getting worried and debating whether it was Ben or Widmore who got to you!
That's good to hear Dennis. :)
Glad to see you're okay Dennis!
I agree with you about this season Sayid's Girl.
I think the problem is that theend date is closer than we realize and the mysteries, whether old or new, have to be resolved quicker than we are used to.
For example, I am confident that we will learn what happened to Frank within 2 episodes. In the past, we may not have seen Frank for 2 years' worth of episodes.
So for me, it feels like the answers are being handed to us too easily and quickly.
Lost2010, you keep making me regret more and more that I didn't pay any attention to Alias. :o) So keep posting the parallels when they come up, it's helpful!
On the suicide thing, unless TPTB are specifically going to make an issue of it concerning how the island feels about it, the idea of suicide being an unforgivable sin is more of a theological idea, and is not actually addressed in the Bible exactly as that. The only unpardonable sin mentioned in the Bible is to deny, curse, or blaspheme the Holy Spirit (depending on the translation - Matt.12:32). That said though, killing yourself is killing a living thing even if it is yourself, and still a bad thing.
You got that right Ace. I wish that they had negotiated their contract to finish in 2011 since they laid down so many tracks of mystery all over the place.
Hey Dennis! Glad that you're OK!
Capcom,
I thought suicide was an unforgivable sin because you are unable to repent/ask for forgiveness before you die.
You can be forgiven for any sin if you repent, no matter how bad.
Hmmm, I suppose I've always considered it this was:
If sin is the indulgence of self over the will of God. And God gave you life. To end that life by your own hand is to blaspheme God [the Holy Spirit]. . .
"Way" not "was - - typo.
Still going through the comments, but Sayid's Girl, I'd say to you, stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and sing la la la when the previews come on. Also don't look at the list of guest stars when the episode starts to air, and if at all possible even skip Previously on Lost.
Well, that would still be a theological theory I guess, Ace. In terms of what you said Lost2010 (and Ace), I would think so too. But in bible study class, etc, the pastor explained that denying or blaspheming the Holy Spirit means basically to not believe in God's Word and to willfully work against God's will and plan, which defines down to not accepting the redemption of the price that Jesus paid to save us from the unholiness that separates us from God. That's just how I've heard it explained a number of times over the years in church, etc., and hopefully I'm relaying it correctly, and I'm not saying that my understanding is the ground-rule definition, it just makes sense to me. :-o
Capcom - I agree with everything you said. I just believe that suicide is the very definition of "willfully working against God's will and plan". I know it never says specifically in the Bible that suicide is unforgivable.
I'm not sure what to make of Ben killing Locke. I agree it had something to do with the mention of Mrs. H. To push on the Locke = Jesus analogy, Jesus was killed for crimes he did not commit by the Romans to placate the Jews. Not sure how that parallels exactly, but I guess John is killed by Ben to placate the O6? That could mean that Ben is indeed the illegitimate usurper of the Holy Land.
As far as Christianity is concerned, trusting that Jesus is the Lord of all and that he died for your sins means that you cannot ever be taken from the Kingdom of God. So while murder of self is deplorable to God, it is as forgivable as murder of someone else. I've committed sins that I may not explicitly ask for forgiveness, but that doesn't mean that i lose ultimate forgiveness.
All that has very little to do with the Island's code of ethics though.
Did Ben actually say suicide was unforgivable? I must have glazed over. Sounded to me like he was just using the line to get John down, not for his sake, but so Ben wouldn't lose his ticket back to the island.
I think the Catholic church, maybe most churches, have made a bigger deal over suicide than what's in the Bible. Same with lots of specific sins. Not that there aren't things that are wrong, but if you and I can see that people do good things for bad reasons and bad things for good reasons - that motivation, outcome, and morality get all twisty-turvy - and we aren't all that smart compared to a god-like being, then surely God can see an even more nuanced picture.
Good to know, Lost 2010. Now I won't watch Alias.
The Christianity on Lost is much more Catholic tinged than Reformed theology.
I agree Lost2010, it sure is working against it. Especially in terms of what better things God might have in store for the person in their future, that has now been wiped out by the suicide. The sadness of a mental instability that causes suicide is another thing that complicates the subject.
Right Memphish, if only Locke hadn't mentioned Mrs.H.! What was it that made Ben lose his marbles over that exactly?!
Good points Wallace, Twinkle, and Memphish. :-)
If you watch Alias, root for Sidney and you'll be okay.
I'm assuming if we keep rooting for Jack and the losties we'll be okay on Lost.
At least, that's what I'm hanging onto.
aceawebguy said:
I think the problem is that theend date is closer than we realize and the mysteries, whether old or new, have to be resolved quicker than we are used to.
I think you have a point there acewebguy.
memphish
I think I may have to the la la Hurley trick.
The funny thing about guest appearences is I'm to busy watching what's going on, on screen to think about reading the names. So I usually don't see them.
re: suicide- I think it depends on your theology- different Christian denominations have different interpretations on it. I hold the same theological interpretation you do capcom.
BUT- I was just wondering in terms of the island, if the suicide vs. murder made a difference.
Also, I was thinking about this tidbit, but don't know what to do with it: Hurley was drawing a picture of the Sphinx about the time Locke showed up in the Tunisian desert (of course the Sphinx is in Egypt, but it's all the Sahara I think). And Locke himself had drawings of the smoke monster on the wall when Richard came to give him "the test" in 1956. And I think Aaron had some questionable drawings that were posted on Kate's fridge (although I haven't had time to look this up yet). So I wonder if these are premonitions? Why do some Losties have this ability?
re: suicide (again) memphish- you've nailed it precisely.
I really liked Alias. That's the reason I decided to watch Lost because it was a JJ Abrams show. Otherwise I'm not sure I would have.
The last season of Alias was the only disappointment. It was delayed so long and then shortened all due to their star being pregnant. At least that's what I presumed. The end seemed rushed and thrown together to me.
Deleted because my black mood is leaking over into my posts. See you guys next week!
Okay, my co-worker and I have come up with a theory:
Maybe if you are the leader or you turn the wheel, and you die, you end up back on the island in some new/resurrected form. So, Ben and Widmore know they can't kill each other, because the dead one will then become more powerful, perhaps meaning that whomever wins the war becomes the leader forever.
That could explain why Widmore was so hell bent on keeping Locke safe - he didn't want Locke to become the final leader. But when Ben learned that Locke and Widmore were going to go to Hawking, he killed Locke, sacrificing his own chance at leadership to keep it from Widmore.
Also, I know I'm late to the party, but I wanted to weigh in. I think that Frank landed the plane on the Hydra island, in whatever "present day" is (2008, I think).
The O5 are all on the main island, in the 1970s or 80s, we just haven't seen Sayid or Sun yet - I'm thinking mostly to postpone the Sun/Jin reunion.
I wonder if Ben is actually the one getting constantly conned by the island. He seems desperate to do whatever the island has in store for Locke in some lame attempt to maintain leadership. Hence Ben turns the FDW instead of Locke. Ben convinces the O6 to return to the island instead of Locke. Ben works with Eloise Hawkings instead of Locke. He seems the constant usurpurer, but it appears that the island's last laugh is on him. None of these events gives him the special chosen label he seems so eager to have back. I think he murders Locke to dispose of him once and for all thinking that will default leadership and specialness back to him. He's probably not pleased when Eloise Hawkings informs him that he must return Locke to the island. Really, the island just uses Ben to get the O6 back, as it always meant to.
On a separate note, I think it's odd that when Ben turns the FDW, he ends up in Tunisia in the same time frame as the O6 but when Locke turns the unFDW, he is transported from the far past to 2007 (as we learn from Widmore and the passport). What are the time travel determinants of the FDW? When was that Polar Bear transported from the island to the desert? Finally, I took humour in the fact that Bentham's passport issued in 2007 expires in 2017, when Canadian passports are only issued for 5 years. Accidental oversight or intentional fakery?
Thanks for everyone's concern :)
OK, I finally got mostly caught up...
I don't think that Sun is the one that went with Frank... She would have vanished with the rest of the O6. I would guess that it was the stewardess (Rupa) that Jack talked to in 316.
Also, as to the canoe, I only recall one canoe in The Little Prince, which I now think was canoe that Frank and Rupa took from Hydra island...
ML I like that theory about leadership, but then why doesn't Ben or Widmore kill themselves?
Uncanny Canadian, I like your ideas about the Island conning Ben. As for when you end up in Tunisia, who knows?
Dennis, here are the 2 outriggers from The Little Prince.
Did anyone get the feeling that Walt was happy that Michael was on the Freighter? Or do you think he knew Locke was lying?
I kind of got the feeling that Walt was testing Locke. He tells him the story about his dreams. Locke blows him off. He asks about his dad, but not in a way that shows real concern. I think Walt, who did spend time in Room 23, is not enslaved by time and space, so he knows the deal with Michael, but wants to judge how ready Locke is to deal with his mission. Guess what? Locke fails.
Just wanted to say this about Locke. I think this episode showed that he can think for himself.
He was told that they all had to go back, but he made the decision himself to let Walt be. He even told Abaddon that he (Walt) has been through enough.
Granted, Locke has always had a soft spot for Walt, but if he was following orders exactly, he would have tried to get Walt back to the island as well.
The one thing I have always liked about Locke is ths...all of the main characters seem like they needed a new life/second chance. The island gave them that (somewhat), but only Locke (and Rose) truly appreciated it from day 1.
Good point Melissa about the dead leaders, etc.
I was kind of disapointed that John didn't tell Walt about his mission. Walt isn't a kid anymore, and I thought it would have been straight shooting on Locke's part to give him the lowdown on what's going on and at least give Walt the chance to make his own decision. And I thought that Abaddon was spot on saying, "0 for 2" when Locke failed Walt too, that was funny. :-)
You're so right Ace about who were the only ones who really appreciated getting a second chance right away. Everyone wanted a second chance, but no one really siezed it the way those two did.
I love this from Mo Ryan (and agree with it).
If you're a Locke fan, then this may have been Christmas. Not that I don't dig Terry O'Quinn's performance, but Locke hasn't been one of my favorite characters for a while now, given that he's so frequently manipulated by others. And this was nothing if not the Locke Manipulation Hour (Now With Added Widmore!).
It just dawned on me Locke died in the exact same manner as his father.
Payback was a b*tch for Locke, wasn't it Memphish?! :-o
That's funny about The Locke Manipulation Hour. Kind of sounds like an Alfred Hitchcock TV show.
I too was really blown away by T. O'Q's performance last night.
Uncanny,
I'm thinking along the same lines you are--that Ben wanted to usurp Locke's destiny. Ben kept Locke alive only long enough to retrieve key pieces of information, then murdered him. I imagine Ben being quite troubled when he went to Ms. Hawking and was told that he needed to get the body! Why is Hawking helping Ben, anyway?
Also, good point about the different effects of the frozen wheel. It only sent Ben about ten months into the future, but you are right, it sent Locke from some distant past all the way to 2007. Why the difference?
Everyone is assuming that Frank took one of the boats, but I'll just throw this silly idea out there: Maybe Frank flashed out of the plane, and the co-pilot landed it? The 316ers might refer to the co-pilot as "the pilot".
Very, very good episode. That one felt more like LOST to me. Although I still miss the traditional structure with the flashbacks/flashforwards. I hope those come back soon.
It does seem exactly how Desmond said: That they are all pawns in a big game. I'm still on the fence as to who is the good guy. Widmore seems driven by revenge for his banishment (and I'm not sure who orchestrated that...most likely Ben).
And this was definitely the Locke Manipulation Hour. It's almost like he's the child which must be split between divorcing parents. And everyone added to his dwindling self-esteem and got him to question is purpose. Is he just a lonely old man who crashed on an island? Is he really special or not? Great acting job!
I'm beginning to think that those on the Hydra island are in present day 2008 and those on the island are in Dharma days in the 70's. When the pilot (Frank) and the woman (Sun?) paddle over to the island, are they going to be in their time frame from the Hydra or be in the 70's?
According to Walt's dream, Locke is in trouble with the 316ers. Caesar and Illana both could be working for Widmore.
I really like that John took charge of the moment and decided not to include Walt in getting back to the island. But if Walt is so special, wouldn't he know something is up?
I'm wondering why Ms. Hawking is helping Ben too. I hope we get to see that meeting. I wonder what lie he tells her about Locke. Or can you lie to the keeper of time?
Abaddon sounded like Ms. Hawking last night talking about Helen's path and John's path being pre determined which Locke stopped himself from say and used inevitable. I wonder if he was a time keeper too.
maven
I'm think Frank and "the woman" (Sun)( I mean who else would he take off with in tne middle of the night with) get to the main island they will still be in their own time not the 70's. Jack, Kate and Hurley were "placed" there by a window.
Heh, totally called it on Ben killing Locke. :)
That was a pretty interesting episode there. I think it will be interesting to see now if Locke ends up working for Widmore, simply because he's fed up with Ben repeatedly either trying or succeeding in killing him. Lol.
Btw, I have a new blog up looking at how Charles Widmore has probably been manipulating Desmond's destiny all along.
It seems Ms Hawkins is well aware of how much of a liar Ben is. So whatever he told her, I doubt she believed it. But I think her primary concern was for the island.
Plus of course if she is an agent for Widmore then by going along with Ben's plan may allow for them getting Widmore operatives to the island (which at this stage is looking likely). So they were probably playing each other.
Sayid'sgirl: I just get how Sun would not be in the group with Jack/Kate/Sayid/Hurley. She was in the same cabin area as them and she was part of the O6. I could buy Frank being in that group since he was previously on the island and left the island with them. So I'm thinking they should be in the same skip at the O6 (just like Locke and Jin were with the LBers). Now this does not explain how Locke and Ben are now with the 316ers!
LOL@lost2010
omg
"not so much..." bwahahaha!
perhaps as i said before it matters how hurt you are if you are to be reanimated in the island(i.e. charlie after ethan hung him), if locke hung himself he might have broken his neck, ben's way he simply died from lack of oxygen. Perhaps the freshness of lockes body was important, assuming locke was embalmed keeping him on ice wasn't so important. Interesting he was stored in "Simon's butcher shop" wasn't charlie's dad named simon and a butcher. I think that its obvious that richard is with ben still, hence telling locke he had to die. It makes sense that Ben's off island support staff are off island others.
i tend to think that Ben just told locke not to kill himself and get that info so that he
(ben) would be useful to hawkings. Plus he wanted a chance to show locke that widmore was the bad guy. Event hough locke will be mad at ben for a little while, i'm sure ben can sweet talk john pretty easy, this is locke were talking about after all, he can justify to locke that he killed him in order to convince jack to come back. I think locke will be more mad at ben for bringing sun back then for killing him.
You are absolutely correct about Simon Pace the butcher, 2costa. Good memory!
I'm not sure why they were separated. But it's my belief that Sun, Frank, Locke and Ben are together. And Jack, Hurley and Kate are together.
Each group in a different time.
They only thing that I can think of that may have caused them to be separated is that Walt wasn't with them.
Ms. Hawking said if they all didn't go back together it would be unpredictable.
Or each group has a purpose in each time.
Or one group was suppose to go back and one wasn't. But that's not likely.
Oh and who knows where/when Sayid is.
In thinking about who's dark, who's light, I've decided Mrs. Hawking isn't either. I think she's a being that can be used by which ever side finds her. I think maybe she can't lie or can't refuse to answer questions or something like that, so when Ben asks her how to get back to the Island she can't refuse to tell him even if he's up to no good. Why Widmore doesn't do the same still doesn't make sense to me, unless he's been told (untruthfully) by someone that he can't use her. Maybe that's the cock and bull he was sold by the "him" who exiled him from the Island.
Mrs. Hawking is the Oracle. but i would guess that Widmore has spoken to her but his path back is much more complicated.
I'm having difficulty reconciling the elderly Hawking and Widmore-- who appear to have great knowledge about space and time, and possibly possess significant information about past, present, and future events--with the Hawking and Widmore we saw back in 1954. Back then, they seemed like normal people (other than the fact that they were Others). What happened to them? How do they know what they know?
I'm also struggling with the apparent contradiction between behavior and actions by the powerful characters on the show. We keep being told that the past and future are generally fixed (unless "the rules" don't apply to you) and that the universe "course corrects" and so on. But there seems to be a whole cast of characters (Ben, Widmore, Hawking, Abbadon, Desmond's monk, ...) whose primary purpose seems to be to manipulate people and events to achieve or prevent things from happening. Either the future is fixed or it isn't, right?
What if the reason Ben kills Locke after the mention of Mrs. H is that he knows that the only way Mrs. H has of getting you back to the Island requires a dead body? This kind of goes with my whole you need proxies from back in the olden days to get there. Clearly there have been other ways in the past to get to the Island, but maybe Mrs. H's way requires these proxies including a certain dead man, in this case Locke.
I also wonder if they could have gone back with a dead Ben. If Locke had gathered the O6 and gone to Hawking would she have told him to kill Ben and bring him along? Or a dead Widmore?
I'm kind of, almost, sort of, thinking that I can forgive Ben for killing Locke IF Ben knew for sure that Locke would be coming back to life on the island.
But it's also fun to think of the thought of how Ben would have choked if he figured that he was done with Locke, and then found out that he had to drag Locke's dead butt all over LA and then back to the island with him. :o)
Well, I think there must have been some master plan in place with Ben and a dead Locke. It would have been awfully convenient to just happen to have an off-island operative working in a butcher shop that can keep a dead body cool.
nice to see i sparked a little conversation there with the suicide reference.
But as said before, if you can't ask forgiveness for what has been done, then it is then "unforgivable".
And to ask for forgiveness BEFORE committing a sin, is blasphemous in itself!! Because you assume that because you WILL be forgiven, that it is okay to go ahead and sin all you want.
just food for thought.
peace, love and purgatory
2costa: the theory you have about broken neck or not, was something that I thought of as well. However, I discounted that because of this.
If he is to be brought back "to life", then there is no injury from which he cannot recover. I mean, he was paralyzed before the island, then could walk. And then, he was DEAD and yet he lives. So do you really think a broken neck wouldn't be "magically" mended upon arrival at the island??
peace, love and purgatory
Plus, Ben was going to kill himself. No reason to STOP him, then do it in his stead. Except maybe to keep him from being a "suicide".
Other than that, I seriously doubt (unless John has more "issues" than at first glance) that he'd be MORE angry for bringing Sun back than killing him!!! hahaha.
Not to mention, John KNEW that EVERYONE had to return!!! EVERYONE! Sun included. So no. He won't be upset about that, because that is how it needed to be.
peace, love and purgatory
Don't take my "!"s out of context up there. Those were for EMPHASIS, not out of spite or to spew anything at anyone. Just FYI.
peace, love and purgatory
It seemed to me the reason Ben stopped locke killing himself was simply to get information. He knew Locke had to die, but he wanted to make sure he was part of the events that would follow that in place of (potentially) Widmore. Of course that doesn't mean there isn't deeper significance to it, but I don't think Ben was specifically trying to save Locke from commiting a mortal sin.
I also think that Eloise is still strongly tied to Widmore and that perhaps the only reason she went along with Ben was because he had an in with the six and once the plane was set up Widmore could get operatives onboard.
I think we'd be very much mistaken if we thought Widmore would suddenly back away once Ben was involved. I still don't think the guys with the tranq guns were his, rather they were Bens used to help encourage them to the island.
Anon, see YoungWallace's post on forgiveness, then you'll understand it better.
Good point Fenris, about Ben getting info. :-)
I'm wondering now, what would be the reason that Widmore didn't beat Ben to LA and Mrs.H, and get back to the island first himself, if he knew exactly where she was (as per what he told Des on how to find her)? Hmmm.
hey Chucklez...I mean Anonymous...
how's it going, bro?
I agree there has to be some rationale as to why Ben talked Locke out of killing himself and then went ahead and killed him anyway. Perhaps there is an Island ban on suicide, but if the Island isn't finished with you, then you can't die, even by your own hand...so was Ben truly afraid that the Island was done with Locke? hmm...so if Ben knew John had to die, was it just that John had information that Ben was planning on conning him out of? And when Locke so freely offered the info, Ben was all goody-now-you-can-die-here-let-me-help-you-with-that. wow. that puts a little spin on things, doesn't it?
btw, I just loved that TPTB had Widmore actually talk about the names of the philosophers John Locke and Jeremy Bentham. LOL Was that a little bit of the writers talking directly to us?
wink, wink, nudge, nudge
:)
I liked that bit too, Amused.
Chucklez/Anon said:
But as said before, if you can't ask forgiveness for what has been done, then it is then "unforgivable".
And to ask for forgiveness BEFORE committing a sin, is blasphemous in itself!! Because you assume that because you WILL be forgiven, that it is okay to go ahead and sin all you want.
I agree, except that there's a third possibility, that the person you have offended can forgive without you asking or deserving it. That's what makes defining what's "unforgivable" difficult to pin down.
There have been a few significant people in my life that I have had to forgive without them asking or deserving it. It was hard and I needed help, but I'm doing it. If I can do it, how much more can God do it even for suicide?
Otherwise God would be a person who'd say one moment, "We're good." Then you'd sin (at anything) and die. Then the next moment God would say, "Sorry, we're not good anymore. You're going to have to pay for that." That sounds more like the pettiness I'd expect from Jacob or the island than from God in Jesus. Some people though think that's the way God is too.
I'm still voting for Ben not caring whether John lives or dies except where it benefits him.
The whole Hawking/Widmore/Ben thing is like the Heroes Generations plot line. The generation before did some serious **** which has not yet been fully revealed, and now the current generation is all confused and paying for it. And so is the audience.
Updated comment about Niagra Falls;The creepy killer guy I had remembered, (all those back and white films have turned grey over the years.)was actually from the Abbott & Costello version.He looks like an old school Other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pQii1L8fGk&feature=related
Enjoy your weekend,Loco's
i tend to think ben knew that locke was gonna come back to life, hence the whole speech to jack about saint thomas. I think it was interesting that from the time we see locke in hoffs drawler to the ajira reanimation flight was roughly 3 days, just like the story with jesus and thomas. The only reason any of us are questioning if Ben knew was his "i really gonna miss u john" comment, which could have just meant hes gonna have a dickens of a time lugging around dead locke. That comment by ben is right up there with" i hope you know what your doing jacob" o r whatever ben said when he was turning the donkey wheel. Both coments see to be contrary to bens actions.
I'm still thinking that theres a big bad coming that we havent seen yet thats not widmore or ben
Twinkle asked...
So why did Frank take off with one of the canoe things and who was the lady he took with him?
I like the idea that it was Sun, but I think it was a stewardess. She would trust Frank and he could have been like listen, we need to get to that other island.
We know Ben doesn't tell the truth except to suit his purposes, but I don't want Widmore telling the truth either.
I don't think he is, Ben probably learned that whole half truth game from Widmore and they are both doing it. Maybe if you combine everything they say you could desipher the truth...lol
Which Dharma station are the new Losties in?
They are definitely in the Hydra station and I would say it is the present that they are in... 2007
Did you notice that Locke, explaining the Dharma Initiative, said "*We* were running experiments." Did I hear that right?
Can't remember at the moment.
It looked to me like the plane has landed on some trees.
I think the plane coming in to crash used the others runway, but slid off at the end as it came to a stop.
LostIt said: Did the plane land in the past or did it land in the present? Aren't those the outriggers that the LBs saw? That would have to have been after the O6 left the island because the camp was there and had been trashed.
I disagree. When Alex helped Kate and Sawyer get away she said that her boat was hidden, and juliet referenced them having boats there at another point. Those (I think) are just boats that were there, left behind by the others.
Walt could still totally be Abaddon. He'd just need to go back in time a bit.
"Get out of the town." (said in a Balcay Bartokimus accent)
i agree that walt could still be abbadon, and thats why abbadon asked locke if he was going to ask walt to go back, he almost seemed little kidish in his delivery, like maybe if i go back with you guys i wont have to be doing widmores bidding later on
i like that idea that they used the runway and just surpassed it. I think thats may be tied to the enhanced comments detailing all the people that have successfully gone to th e island, it stressed how frank landed the chopper unscathed. I'm wondering if the plane being intact may be something down the road towards flying a lot of people off the island in the endgame of the show, the runway seems more important for taking off then landing
heres t he enhanced transcript
A barrier surrounds the island
and one must approach the island
at the proper bearing to get through.
Oceanic flight 815 hit turbulence
before it was ripped apart
and crashed on the island.
Desmond encountered a very bad storm
and crashed his sailboat onto the island.
Frank Lapidus's helicopter hit a storm
and almost crashed on the island
but was able to land safely.
And when Sayid, Desmond and Lapidus
flew from the island to the freighter
they encountered a storm and almost crashed
before they made it to the freighter.
seems like they are stressing how lapidus is the only one to go back and forth without crashing, makes me remmeber the smbolic "holy cow" that frank encountered when he first reached the island
Hey Village thanks for the Youtube link!! The 3 Stooges one is below in the list even, it's great! X-D Oldies but wonderful goodies! Nyuk-nyuk!
Heheh, Ded, get out of the town!
anyone else wonder how daniels equation map that ceasar was looking at ended up on hydra island?
Oh yeah 2costa, I wonder that a lot! :-o
Ded,
After re-watching,I'm pretty sure Locke said "they".
I also realized that While the O-6have been off the Island for three years,(John's conversation with C.W. and Sayid)only a few days have passed on the Island for Locke,and the LB's.
It just occurred to me that we don't have the "two Locke's on the same island" problem now right? Because island-Locke bounced off into The World after turning the wheel and then came back, so.....since island-time-skipping-Locke left, there is only one Locke on the island. Right? Or, not right? :-o
I think you're right, Capcom. But would Ben have a problem if he gets over to the big island and runs into 1970's Ben?
Now that might be a problem! Past-Ben could be there for all intents and purposes.
And thanks!
Any of you guys know of a website to upload MP3's so that I can send out a link to it and others can listen?
ThanX in advance...i hope
DeDJeZTeR said...
Any of you guys know of a website to upload MP3's so that I can send out a link to it and others can listen?
---------------------
Try mediafire.com
It's free and fast. I use it all the time. No sign up necessary.
Thanx Thin
Check this out guys, Anthony from Opie and Anthony 92.3 and XM radio explains Lost in 60 seconds.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=76bb8cda61974638c79b87b207592a1ce04e75f6e8ebb871
Anybody watch Andromeda the TV show? Maybe something happens, Ben finds the younger Ben, kills him off and takes his place? And that's why it seems like Ben always knows what's going on (for the most part) and is always so ticked off at people he hasn't "officially" met yet?
Anyone else wonder what in the world Daniel's notes meant? I paused the show at that point and looked it. I'm surprised Lostpedia doesn't have a screen capture. There was Real Time crossed with a different time and circles. It kind of reminded me of the floor under the Foucault's pendulum.
Zig Ziglar and Niagara Falls...you all make me smile.
When I saw Daniel's notes, I assumed he was dead. Daniel has always kept his belongings close to him.
Good point, Barbara Jay! Although he left some stuff in the attic at Oxford too. The question of what happened to our Dharma time Losties is probably one of the season's big reveals.
I'm pretty sure that the ajira people will be in the present no matter what island they are on, including ben, so i'm thinking no ben seeing himself in the seventies. The ajira people, locke and ben did not get subjected to the flash. They never said they saw a flash of light and then they dissappeared did they? i think hurley kate and jack just dissappeared and no one else saw the light, just as in the past flashes no one else but the lb's see the light. Which makes me think the ajira people are just people on a point in the timeline that arent at all subject to the flashes, and will not jump around in time regardless. I think getting to the island wasn't the hard part, jack and the rest had to do all the proxy business to accomplish two things, bring locke back to life and have them plucked out of the plane into the same time period as the lb's. If sun is in the present with lapidus like many have speculated there has to be a reason, like the wedding band or the fact that she left ji yeon behind, perhaps sun was rejected by the island from the flash for not bringing her daughter with. All the other 06 didn't really do much in the three years off island that would be missed if they never come back or change the past, and thus no real paradoxes would be created, but if sun went back to the 70's and didn't come back or they changed the course of things that led to sun and jin making her, ji yeon existing would be a serious paradox, so perhaps the island takes that into account. I think that's why the others are so hard core about killing supporting characters in the time flashes, they dont want any loose ends mucking up the space time continuum. Only the core players in this timeline flashing are spared.
So is widmore ruled the others in peace for 30 years wouldn't that take him to like 1985 on the island, theres no way penny was born after 1985, widmore seemed pretty established financially in 1988 when he bought the black rock ledger. I'm thinking that widmore used the sub or whatever like ben and tom to leave the island, throughout his tenure on the island to go make his fortune and perhaps sired penny on the island(maybe in the 1970's before the fertility problem) or on one of his off island jaunts. Considering widmore broke a fellow others neck because he was going to tell locke where the others base camp was in 1955, i have a feeling his idea of "ruling in peace" is different then most of us would imagine...
I thought I was posting this yesterday, but for some reason it didn't. Here it goes again -- hopefully. Well, maybe this time.
To play Devil's Advocate, I think the woman with Frank is Sun and the way she got Frank to sneak off in the night with her was guilt. You left my husband on that freighter, you're taking me to him now! Otherwise I don't think Frank as the captain of his ship would abandon the 316ers.
As to why Sun wouldn't have gone with Jack, Kate and Hurley the answer is it's unpredictable. The reason Jack, Kate and Hurley are in the 70s is that there's something their 2007 selves have always done in the 70s. Sun and Sayid weren't there in the 70s, their 2007 selves either aren't needed or are needed in some other time.
So sorry that last post is so out of order, but for some reason it didn't post when I typed it, and I just now found it.
Why the O6 need to go back has always bothered me. It's never really made sense, but now I think I'm getting it. If the O6 had not left the Island and Locke had turned the wheel as he was supposed to, the Island would have flashed back to Dharma Days and the Island would be inhabited by Dharma and the LBs. The LBs, their 21st century selves, have some task to do in DI Days just like 21st Century Locke had to meet 17-year-old Widmore.
The question is what is that task? Are they there to order the Purge? Or is there some reason that some Island faction thinks they can prevent the Purge? Or is it something completely different. So far it seems that it should be the case that they cannot prevent the Purge because it has occurred and therefore always should occur. So is it just the case that the time traveling LBs need to be there so it will occur and the timeline be preserved?
On a separate note, I wonder if Cesar is the response to the Chang video to reconstitute the DI. For some reason it seems he has some familiarity with the stuff he's finding in The Hydra.
Twinkle, we found that Dan's notebook page with the circles and lines looked like an extended version of the real Minkowski's theory on imaginary space and time, which is what Dan has written on the page. See a graphic that I found last season here: http://capcomslost.blogspot.com/2008/02/footnotes-for-future-405.html
Wow, I thought that my mention of Zig Ziglar would be answered with crickets chirping! I should have known, you guys are all so well-read, even on the older stuff. That's why I hang out here. :-)
Wow #2, that is an awesome thought about why/how Sun might get Frank to help her get to the main island to find Jin Memphish! :-o
Oh, as for the original Purge vs an aborted Purge (which could not be possible according the The Rules) maybe the Purge could still happen, but more people could be saved, or hidden, since they'd know about it coming at some point? Mabye not exactly when, but if they know that something will occur, perhaps they can save more people then when they had no idea??? Just thinkin'
P.S. I find myself SO annoyed that we have two new people of whom we have NO idea what side they are on, again! :-p
I haven't caught up on all the posts yet, so if this has already been discussed to death, I apologize.
Black Swan said, "The other thing that makes me think they aren't the same boats is that Ilana says the pilot and a woman took off in the middle of the night, but there were more people in the boat chasing Faraday and Co. and it was daytime (before a flash to a stormy night)"
I don't think it was Frank and the woman chasing the LBs. I think they went from the hydra where they landed to the original Losties beach camp. I think Locke took anohter boat to the beach camp. Then the LBs took one from the beach camp while Frank, Locke and the woman went searching the island. Then some of the other new crash survivors (Ilana, Caesar and maybe some others) took the third boat to go after them. They were the ones doing the shooting.
Twinkle said "One question we also need to ask is who came in three of those canoes? Are they still on the island and are they friendlies?"
I think the outrigger canoes are leftover from when Ben and the others were on the hydra. Alex used on to travel back and forth between the hydra island and the main island.
Ooh! That just flashed a memory and now I'm thinking a little differently about the 3 canoes and how they got to the beach. Could one of those canoes be the one used by Karl to warn the losties about Ben planning an ambush?
That would mean that one of the canoes that the LBs found at the beach camp was Karl's and the other one was the one Frank and the woman used. (I don't think it was Sun. I think she would have flashed in like the other O6 members that were alive on the plane)
If I had read a little further I would have seen that Matt answered my question about one of the canoes being Karl's. He said that the boards leading out to the outiggers are different.
Maven said "Matt: By "fresh" I mean lived in and not deserted. Having a flashlight that works with batteries would indicate something that hasn't been lying around for 30 plus years."
No, but they could have been around for 2-3 years (just since Ben and the others left it) if they crashed in 2007.
"Not to mention, his cast was taken off because Jack put Christian's shoes on both feet and there was no sign of cast or broken leg."
I hadn't noticed that, scoutpost. Good catch! I wonder if there's any significance to it or if it's just a continuity thing?
One thing I was wondering about Ben killing Locke - was he doing that because he knew that Locke needed to die to return to the island and would be resurrected once he got there? So he was carrying out the will of the island at that point?
Sayid's girl said "Not sure about why Locke didn't flash."
I think Locke didn't flash because, like Ben, he turned the FDW.
I'm bored and waiting on something, so I'm perusing the pop-up transcript of 316. I know some of these were mentioned earlier, but I'll repeat them anyway. :-)
This is a U.S. Army photo of the island taken in 1954.
The island cannot be seen
by a visual fly over or by satellite.
The DHARMA Initiative knew island existed
from the military photos.
They also studied old slaving vessel manifests
like the Black Rock journal.
Ajira is a Hindi word that means "island."
The theme of science versus faith
is underscored by the science lab
located under the church.
Ben vowed to Charles Widmore
that he would kill Widmore's daughter, Penny This is in the scene where Ben talks about the promise to an old friend.
Ben's lawyer, Dan Norton
was able to secure Hurley's release
citing thin evidence, as seen
in this season's episode, "The Little Prince."
A barrier surrounds the island
and one must approach the island
at the proper bearing to get through.
Oceanic flight 815 hit turbulence
before it was ripped apart
and crashed on the island.
Desmond encountered a very bad storm
and crashed his sailboat onto the island.
Frank Lapidus's helicopter hit a storm
and almost crashed on the island
but was able to land safely.
And when Sayid, Desmond and Lapidus
flew from the island to the freighter
they encountered a storm and almost crashed
before they made it to the freighter.
That last one was a doozy. I guess that means Frank had the right heading. I wonder if he used the one Daniel had given him before.
Thanks Memphish!
I have a question: when Ben told Locke that Jack had just bought a ticket from LA to Sydney, was he lying or are we to think that Jack was still on his plane-hopping "praying the plane would crash on the island" jag? Cuz, obviously they weren't flying to Sydney, they were flying to Guam this time. Tx.
he was referring to the flights that jack was taking with his oceanic golden ticket right before he saw that locke had killed himself on one of those flights in a newspaperjack found on a seat..
memphis said "So Penny was born or at least conceived on the Island right? Unless, she like Alex was adopted."
I hadn't thought of that! If Widmore was 17 in 1965, that would make him 47 when he left which would have been 20 years ago. Penny's older than 20. Good thinking, memphish!
since jack ad already started growing his oxycoton beard when locke visited him, i can't see him doing too many oceanic flights, considering locke was still injured from his car accident when he killed himself, which means that jack only had a month max of time to do oceanic flights before he saw locke was dead, but i guess since we now know that locke had mentioned christain that it was a little more plausable why jack went off the deepend, just trying to randomly crash on the island again..
ya lostit, but i assume that widmore could leave the island whenever he wanted when he was the leader, so maybe he just conceived penny on an off island booty call before he was banished. I also think he already made off island fourtunes for himself before he left, just like ben has no problem getting off island tactical and financial support
Sounds good 2costa. Either way, I guess Ben was still stretching the truth, because how would Locke know that Jack was taking his little fruitless excursions every weekend. I was just wodnering if what he said fit into the timeline of when Jack was doing that. Obviously I'm too lazy to look it up. :-B
lostit said:
I think Locke didn't flash because, like Ben, he turned the FDW.
That's a good point I never thought of that. Thanks.
capcom said:
I have a question: when Ben told Locke that Jack had just bought a ticket from LA to Sydney, was he lying or are we to think that Jack was still on his plane-hopping "praying the plane would crash on the island" jag? Cuz, obviously they weren't flying to Sydney, they were flying to Guam this time. Tx.
I was wondering this to. At first I thought Ben was lying. But maybe not Jack is just starting to grow his beard.
I'm wondering if he's seen Christain yet. If he sees him before or after Locke's visit.
capcom
Ben said he had people watching the O6 so he would know if Jack was taking regular flights.
I think it fits in the time line.
Thanks everyone! Oh, I meant that I didn't think that Locke would know about Jack's trips. And I forgot about the semi-lumberjack-face that he had and where that would put them in time.
Now for another question that I'm too lame to lookup: when Locke saw Hurley, was it before Jack first visited Hurely in the gym, since at the gym Hurley did mention going back? I'm thinking that he would not have had that thought before he saw Locke, right?
You'se guys are the best. :-D
I would say Locke visited Hurley sometime after Jack visited Hurley in the gym. Jack was just talking about growing the beard then.
I think this is actually the timeline Capcom.
Abaddon visits Hurley in the dayroom.
Jack visits Hurley in the gym.
Jack visits Hurley to get him to take his meds.
Locke visits Hurley.
And here's what the pop-ups have to say about Hurley being at the airport.
This is the first time
Jack and Hurley have seen each other
since Jack visited Hurley
at the mental institute.
During that visit, Hurley warned Jack
that Jack would soon be getting visitors.
Soon after, Jack saw his dead father
as seen in the Season 4 episode
"Something Nice Back Home."
Oh and as for Jack's beard. When he mentions it to Hurley in the gym that was a mislead for us. He doesn't acutally grow the beard until much, much later.
If Abaddon was suppose to get people where they're suppose to be for Widmore.
Then where was Hurley suppose to be?
I know Abaddon was trying to get Hurley into a "better facility" but why?
See'n is believein'.
Jack saw Christian;on, and off the Island.Hurley saw Charlie,numerous times.Sun saw Jin's wedding ring.
Sayid saw the long arm of the law.
Who,or what did Kate see, to change her mind?
Thomas,the Apostle,saw and believed.He was told"Because you have seen me.you have believed;blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed."
For various,and sundry reasons,most of the 06,were on that flight to Guam.The Island,and the LB's have them back again.They have work to do.
Thanks everyone!
But didn't Hurley hint something about going back in the gym that got Jack upset and made him pretend that he had to leave? I guess that it was just what Charlie said that Hurley was hinting to Jack about, and not actually Locke's visit to him which happened later. And who the heck knows what Mr. Eko was telling Hurley while they were playing chess! :-D
Hey, interesting question about why/where Abaddon wanted Hurley to be relocated to.
kate saw a vison of claire and got the backward phone call, claire's statement to kate basically presupposed that kate was going back to the island and she "better not bring him(aaron i'm guessing) back"
ben was saying to locke that his visit to jack had inspired jacks oceanic joy rides, i assume his flight to oz was his first attempt, i just can't see locke meandering around too long in between seeing jack in the hospital and deciding to off himself, i just said a month because locke still had the cast on his leg when he tried to kill himself. If anything it's almost a continuity error, because before they implied jack had taken many flights when they showed him combing over maps in his apartment, but unless it took a long time for the police to find lockes body, i cant see time for more than one oceanic flight(maybe two) for jack. Ben tells locke jack booked the flight, ben kills locke, jack sees obit on his flight back? right
Interesting 2costa!
i also agree that jack just starting the beard, when he sees locke, is like 2 years after he sees hurley in santa rosa and says hes thinking of growing a beard
i was also thinking that ben was having sayid kill widmores people so widmore would have less well trained people to send to the island to infiltrate or less people to hunt for ben, since it seems widmore has no interest in harming the 06
Ben doesn't move to kill Locke until after he mentions Hawking, but the fact that Jin is alive also throws Ben for a loop. I wonder if the reason Ben let the people go to the freighter and didn't care if it blew up was that Ben was trying to change the past. He knew from his own Dharma days that Jin and the other O6 (or some portion of them) do something during that time frame and he was trying to stop it by letting them die in 2004/5.
i tend to agree memphis, but i also think that ben is so cavalier about killing people because he's hoping that it will all be moot if the lb's change the past...
I don't know if this is a continuity error or a sign that things have been slightly changing in our lost time line, so slight it's hard to notice. Below i put the transcript of walt's convo with locke in last weeks episode and walt's convo with hurley in santa rosa from last season. If you read through it Locke never tells walt he is jeremy bentham or about the lies. yet when walt visits hurley he adresses locke as bentham to hurley and seems to mention much more then locke ever said to him...its not like the obit would reach ny
ABADDON: I'll give you two some privacy.
[Horn honks]
WALT: Hey, John.
LOCKE: Hi, Walt.
WALT: What happened?
LOCKE: I hurt my leg. You don't seem surprised to see me.
WALT: I've been having dreams about you. You were on the Island, wearing a suit, and there are people all around you. They wanted to hurt you, John.
LOCKE: Good thing they're just dreams.
WALT: Is my dad... is he back on the Island? I haven't talked to him in three years. I figured he must've gone back.
LOCKE: Um, last I heard, your dad was on a freighter near the Island.
WALT: So why'd you come to see me?
LOCKE: I just wanted to make sure you were okay.
WALT: Yeah. I'm doing pretty good. Well, I gotta go. It was good seeing you, John.
LOCKE: Yeah. Take care. HURLEY: Hey, Walt.
WALT: Hey, Hurley.
HURLEY: You're getting big, Dude.
WALT: You know, when you came back, I was waiting for one of you to come see me, but... nobody did.
HURLEY: I'm sorry.
WALT: Do you know who did come see me? Jeremy Bentham. I don't understand why you're all lying.
HURLEY: (Lowered voice) We're lying... because it's the only way to protect everyone that didn't come back.
WALT: Like my dad?
HURLEY: Like your dad, yeah.
interesting aye?
Good catch 2costa. :-)
could ben have told walt all about Bentham after all he was outside of walts school when he saw Locke.
There seems to be something there that either TPTB missed, or they haven't told us about yet.
I hope these "continuity issues" are really not just bad writing...but intentional clues/red herrings planted for our enjoyment/confounding.
Otherwise, I would not be amused!
:)
Takes a Village: What did Kate see?
That story still needs to be told.
Whatever it was, it must have been a doozy!
Amused;
Yep.
it was also strange that abbadon slipped and said the boys gotten tall before he revealed to locke that he gets people going where they need to be. Are we supposed to believe hes been in locke's life so long and apparently walt's, but dosn't know who helen is?
Be sure and read Ack Attack.
My favorite part so far:And for his ~*peace of mind*~ Widmore gave Locke a creepy ass bodyguard! The guy that told Locke to go on the Walkabout like eons ago! And Widmore was like “You can trust him, he’s bald like us!!”
I've been slightly distracted today....I just got a new iPhone and have been playing with it all day! LOL
I think we still have some major chunks of time missing in the off-island goings on. I think they might be allowing for some flashbacks (or I guess they would be flash forwards if they're in 1970's island time).
Update on J. Wood for those who haven't seen it yet. He's still posting but his last two poasts have been dleayed by a combination of health and technical problems.
Hi all, a good episode with a shocking twist (of the cord !)
I've been through the comments and I'm fairly sure no one has said this, but Locke said that there was only one person he had to convince to get them back.
It was infered by the episode that the one person was Jack, but what if the one person was Ben, and Locke was playing Ben for once ?
Also who gave Locke the name of Mrs Hawking ? I either missed that part or it wasn't mentioned. I'll rewatch tonight to see if I can work it out.
Also the people installing HD didn't manage to sort it out so I had to watch on good old normal telly mode.
Glad to hear Dennis is ok and still with us, it has been quite a time for disasters, both natural and mad made recently so it is always good to hear that people are ok.
Zort, Christian Shephard told lock to find Eloise Hawking before he turned the wheel. As for the one he had to convince, I think it was any of the O6. I think Locke figured if he could just get one, that one would convince the rest.
memphish - thanks for reminding me, I should remember to wath the 'Previously' section !
On Lostcasts they pointed out that the people we've seen flash to the 70s, Jack, Kate and Hurley were the ones on Mrs. Klugh's list, minus Sawyer. I hadn't thought of that.
Everytime I regain hope that the list meant something, they dash it to pieces. But I really like the idea that the reason they were so interested in Jack, Kate, Hurley, and maybe Sawyer - was that they knew about them from when they visited in the 70s.
Sawyer would be in the 70's too. Along with Jin and probably Juliet,Daniel and Miles. Poor Rose and Bernard we never know what they're up to until the finales.
Yes Rose and Bernard are in sort of limbo at the moment, we have no idea what happened to them after the beach attack.
This a test post from my new toy!
Sorry about that, gang, but I was testing my new iPhone! It worked! :)
And I'm definitely worried about Bernard and Rose. Where the heck are they?
Oh boy, if Rose gets skip-landed into the 1970s too, God help the hippies from her nagging, she'll never let up on those DI psycho-babblers! I can't wait! X-D
So when Ben claims he moved the Island to prevent Widmore from finding it and letting Locke lead, he was at best mistaken and at worst lying because once Ben left Locke couldn't lead "his people" because of the time flashes which affected John, but not the Others. So was Ben lying or mistaken? Or is John just supposed to lead his people, the 815ers and not actually the Others?
On The Transmission a caller pointed out that they show a 4-toed Locke before he's going to hang himself. It's at 0:53 into this clip.
Another interesting idea from The Transmission. The upcoming war is not between Widmore and Ben, but between Jacob and Christian. It seems that Christian has usurped Jacob on Island, and it's Christian that tells Locke to leave and to die. Jacob on the other hand asks Locke to "Help [him.]" And Widmore and Ben both say that Locke needs to be back on the Island.
It does look like Locke has four toes in most of the casted-foot shots, but in the scene in the hospital where Jack walks to the door, you can see all five toes.
Interesting idea about Jacob and CS.
Apparently, besides the March 11 break, there is going to be a Clip Show on April 22nd.
Wouldn't April 22nd be the finale if there's 16 episodes? And we skip March 11th.
Sayid'sgirl: According to the chart on DarkUFO, May 20th is the finale (which would be in Sweeps Month). There are 4 more episodes after April 22nd.
there's 17 episodes
5/20/09 5x17
5/13/09 5x16
5/6/09 5x15
4/29/09 5x14
4/22/09 clip show
4/15/09 5x13
4/8/09 5x12
4/1/09 5x11
3/25/09 5x10
3/18/09 5x09
3/4/09 5x08
Thanks maven and 2costa.
I thought April was to early for the end.
But that's what 16 weeks added up to on the calendar.
Don't talk about the Finale yet, there is still lots of Lost before then.
I've just seen some behind the scenes photo's posted on MSN
Click Here to see them
I don't think there are any spoilers in amongst them. My favourite is the one of Daniel in the Tiara.
Neat photos Zort. Not spoilery. The one of TOQ playing golf with a compound fracture. Ick!
the 4 toed statue is Locke's foot?
omg...lololololol
now that would be funny!
thanks for the Ack Attack link, Memphish!
The Get Lost podcast guys have debunked 4-toed Locke. Oh well. I guess it could still be Sawyer.
Just heard that my HD install has been rebooked for Thursday, so fingers crossed.
Fingers crossed for zort.
I'm going to take a wild guess here before tomorrow night's show and say Sayid is with the Locke group.
I don't know why. It's just a feeling I have.
Thanks for the link Zort!
Yes, you can see all of Locke's toes in the hospital scene when Jack is at the door beginning his Jack-face-o-palooza.
Perhaps Locke is self concious about his four toes and wears a prosthetic toe.
Or at some point soon Ben offers to give him a foot massage and then takes a toe off !
Thanks Sayid'sgirl, Sky are the only people I can get a HD service from and still watch Lost. Their customer service is next to zero so anything could happen.
I personally think Sayid has been plucked out of the plane like the three we have already seen, but has landed somewhere else with Sun.
If Sayid has gone to the past, would that mean the Marshall he was handcuffed to has gone as well as they were attached ?
Well see I think Sun is with the Locke group too.
I don't think Sayid was handcuffed to her. Just handcuffed.
Yes thinking about it he was probably handcuffed to the seat like Kate was on the 815 flight.
i don't know if this is a spoiler its in the sky one promo read at your own risk, but i don't think its fair to call the sky one promo a spoiler but heres your warning
sun is with the ben group, it's in the promo, which group sayid is with is still a mystery, i tend to think hes with the white lighters or ilana would still be tending to him?
2costa, probably best to leave a bigger gap when declaring a possible spoiler, but I agree it's on the borderline as it is in a promo.
Off topic - I've just signed up at Skynetresearch.com which is a Terminator ARG. Reminds me a bit of the DI ARG (but don't let that put you off :-) )
I think the promo departments may be the source of some of the disappointments I keep reading about at various spots with the season.
Locke turning up alive would have been at least an 'aha!' moment but we already saw him talking to the 316ers in the promo so it lost any surprise value it would have had.
And the writers seem to be forgoing certain personal elements as they build toward the ending in the stories in the interest of building in these little mini-cliffhangers. So, when you don't get the 'aha!' it leaves the episode a little flat.
My guess is that you were supposed to walk away from this episode shaking your head going, I can't believe Locke is alive!
It's the equivalent of showing Locke in the wheelchair in the promo for the episode before Walkabout, maybe.
It's like the promo guys are missing the point, kind of.
I agree with you about the promos Lost2010, not much wisdom being utilized there. Finding 815 was like that for me too, and that was revealed in a dang game. :-p
Stay away from Promos. The Promos are bad. :-)
Good advice Walt! :-D
And everything is so twisted and out of context in promos!
The Lost Community: Join hosts David A Dein and Steve The Goog Guglich as they unpack the brand new episode of Lost "The Life and Times of Jeremy Benthem." Along the way they posulate some really interesting theories and spoil the end of the Diary of Anne Frank.
If you'd like to be a guest on the podcast, have any theories, discover any clues, or just want to say "Hi!", contact TLCpodcast@gmail.com (mp3 comments are accepted as well), or leave a voice mail or fax at (206) 202-3512.
Episode 56 - The Life and Death of Jeremy Benthem
The new fantasy league standings are up. After all my griping about Locke and Kate, they seem to have given my fantasy team a shot in the arm. :)
I dropped a few in the standings.
But I'm still hovering around the middle.
I've forgotten how to access the LFL standings. Can someone post a link?
Here is the link, Losit.
I'm #7! Congrats to Detroit Blue Herons! Ded has relinquished his standing!
That's #7 in the TLC mini-league....not the whole thing! LOL
The Lost Communuity standings are
Detroit Blue Herons
Elizabeth's Wicked LOST
Weagle Weagle War Eagle Fantasy Team
Team LuckyGuyLikeMe
You Don't Know Jack
Tsol
maven
DeD-LoSTieS
S.W.A.T.
Eight is Enough
codysmom
Lossa's Losties
Deceased-clown
They've all lostit
x-1
TheLostZort
Sayid's Army
valerianmud
Bigdog
Goatzilla
UC is lost in time, space, and sanity
8OrangeSmiles
greek-lost-team
theVillage8
FYSB's Fantasy Picks
Sterling
Memphish
Team NO WORMHOLES
Sailormoon73's LFL
Happy Lost Day!
NEW POST!
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