Wednesday, February 25, 2009

The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham - Season 5, Episode 7

Well, the title says it all! On tonight's episode, Locke’s fateful mission off the island as Jeremy Bentham is revealed.

Hopefully, we'll find out why Locke ended up in that coffin, how he remembers dying and who photoshopped his picture into this plane crash image.

Are we lucky enough to pick up with the Oceanic 6 on the island as well? Probably not!

398 comments:

1 – 200 of 398   Newer›   Newest»
DeDJeZTeR said...

One millionth

Twinkle said...

Can't wait! Gotta get the kids in bed!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Here!

maven said...

So the big pop up things tonight are the military was the proof of the island and Ben threatened Widmore's Penny.

Alvar must have had military contacts in his life as an arms dealer. Maybe that's how he found out about it.

Have fun tonight everyone!

Capcom said...

Thanks Melissa, you've been doing a great job!

Capcom said...

Heheh, Kate just said, "Where's Ben?"...my guess is, Ben hit the ground running and is on his own butt-saving agenda already!

DeDJeZTeR said...

you got that right capcom... lol
Flashing mirrors and finding others.

DeDJeZTeR said...

IS it just me or was that Daniels notes that Ceaser found?

Takes a Village said...

Well that's a fine how do you do.

Sayid'sgirl said...

So are they in a different time than Jack and Co.?
The Life magazine said color pictures of hydrogen bomb(s).

Black Swan said...

here you are!

Black Swan said...

so, there are surveillance cameras just waiting for someone to show up in tunisia

Capcom said...

I dunno Ded, but it looked like all the maps we've seen up to now were in that pile.

Ellen said...

wow, just commented for email on the last thread and you moved!!!
Thanks Melissa for your dedication!
xxoo

Black Swan said...

different treatment than when Ben landed in tunisia... omg, poor Locke

Capcom said...

Wow, Wid's got the FDW desert outlet port covered?!

Capcom said...

Aha, Widmore answers tonight! :-D

DeDJeZTeR said...

SO Abbadon is definitely Widmores man and not just an Oceanic goon.

Capcom said...

Sweet.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I'm relly liking this episode.

Ellen said...

me too! I hope they give details about what happened when Wid left and so on...!!!
xxoo

Sayid'sgirl said...

Those looked like Rousseau's maps to me.

Capcom said...

Me too Sayidsgirl.

Heheh, Windmore's got a point there, he's not killing John.

Capcom said...

Soooo, does Locke not remember that he owes Abaddon a favor????

Sayid'sgirl said...

capcom
He seems a little anxious with him doesn't he.

Takes a Village said...

Walt,he dreams the future,dude

Capcom said...

Aw, poor Helen. Unless that's a fake grave so Locke will forget about her.

DeDJeZTeR said...

didn't see it all but she died on 4/8 April 8th

Sayid'sgirl said...

I guess Ben killed Abbadon.

Black Swan said...

That's right, capcom... it could all be a ploy! Widmore and Ben both are playing Locke

lost2010 said...

They seem to continually find ways to make me dislike Kate more. . .how do they do that?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Ded Apr 8 2006

Black Swan said...

sayid'sgirl, that's what I think

Black Swan said...

I kind of missed the Kate part.. hope my recording is working!

Black Swan said...

I think Locke's lesson to learn is to trust himself and his instincts.. to quit letting others influence his thoughts and self-doubt.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Locke said he lost Helen because he was angry and obsessed.
Kate said And look where you are.
Or something like that. Can't remember.

Capcom said...

Yeah, can they make us hate Kate any more than we arleady do? X-D

So I guess that Ben had Sayid kill Abaddon? Boo hiss. I think. :-o

Capcom said...

Oh yeah, if John came back alive on the island, does that mean that CS really came back alive and is not just a Smokey vision?!

Sayid'sgirl said...

So that's what convinced Jack.

lost2010 said...

Man, Locke is a loser. One shot each and he just gives up?

Capcom said...

Hmmm, is Locke rigging himself up because he's a coward or because RA told him he'd have to die to convince them?

lost2010 said...

Either way, suicide is unforgivable in my book.

Capcom said...

Me too. Locke needs to read a couple Zig Ziglar books.

lost2010 said...

And the Sawyer/Ben paralells just keep on coming. . .

DeDJeZTeR said...

WTF??????

Sayid'sgirl said...

I knew it was Ben. When he had Jin's ring.

Capcom said...

Oh my garsh!

Takes a Village said...

To Ben, saying Eloise Hawking is like saying Niagra Falls.

lost2010 said...

Good one Tav.

Capcom said...

OK, I was just thinking to myself, "Wow, once again Ben makes me like him," and then I remembered that it seems like every time Ben makes me like him, then he does something awful. But I was NOT expecting that!

Capcom said...

What does Niagra Falls mean? :-o

Black Swan said...

OMG... is it because it can't be suicide?

lol, tav!

lost2010 said...

Slowly I turn.
Step by step.
Inch by inch. . .

ring any bells, capcom?

Black Swan said...

lost 2010, the Sawyer/Ben parallels?

lost2010 said...

Strangled him didn't he? Just like Sawyer strangled the other Sawyer. . .

Black Swan said...

ah, I see.. thanks..
are there other parallels?

lost2010 said...

SG - Oh, sorry. I had in mind that Ben was Sawyer's proxy last week. That's all - both con men bent on revenge - both possibly killed someone the day before the flight - and now we have Ben strangling Locke in a very similar fashion to the way Sawyer strangled Locke's father. . .

Probably just my overactive imagination.

Capcom said...

Nuh-uh no bells, except for an I Love Lucy episode! X-D

You know, I kind of wouldn't mind if Lost ends with Ben in a straight-jacket, rocking in a padded cell. :-p

lost2010 said...

Oh, hmmm. I think it's a 3 stooges reference but it might be I love Lucy. . .I know it's black and white. . .in my mind it's Curly and Moe but I'm bad to get my pop culture references confuzzled.

Black Swan said...

thanks again lost 2010

Capcom said...

Three Stooges??? Then I will have to look that one up I love them! Thanks! The I Love Lucy one was just where she was training to be some bum in one of Ricky's shows, doing that old "step by step" gag.

lost2010 said...

And I'm way off topic by now. Good night guys.

memphish said...

Wow! 60 comments already. That's what I get for staying away during the episode. I also totally avoided the preview. I pulled a Hurley, ears in the finger, la la la la.

I'm just going to give a couple of quick reactions and bug out. This was a Meet Kevin Johnson episode, complete with Walt. It filled in blanks, blanks I wanted to see, but on the whole did not blow me away. I really liked the scene with Locke and Jack. I was so sad Helen had died. And I hate Benjamin Linus. Of course, that's partly influenced by the fact I watched Season 1 of The Wire over the last couple of weeks and am a huge Lt. Daniels (Abaddon) fan.

My big question for everyone is who's telling the truth? Ben or Widmore?

I vote Widmore.

Capcom said...

C-ya tomorrow Lost2010!

This episode left me in shock. I can't wait till the West Coast sees it. And the UK.

Takes a Village said...

You were right,Lost2010.
It was a funny scene.
Ben,you surprised me tonight.

DeDJeZTeR said...

Ears in the finger... this I would like to see... lol

Melissa_Lossa said...

lost2010 - *snort*

I have to say, I liked this episode more than I thought I would. Although I really wanted Walt to be in it more than he was.

Capcom said...

LOL Ded.

Yeah, Waltie's so adorable. Hopefully we'll get more of him soon. When he finds out that his dad is dead and that everyone's been fibbing to him, he's goona let loose a bird-hurricane.

Melissa_Lossa said...

I remember it from the stooges. :)

lost2010 said...

One more then I'm really gone. :)

Widmore is not a good guy either. He wanted to hack off one of Juliet's hands for no reason much.

I don't think there are any good guys.

There's just these two evil factions playing our losties like pawns.

Capcom said...

That's about where I'm standing on the Ben vs. Wid issue too Lost2010.

Melissa_Lossa said...

I'm outta here, too - I have a bad headache, and being on the computer isn't helping. Just wanted to stop by and say hi!

Takes a Village said...

A whole new group of Losties. Great episode.
Good night all.

Black Swan said...

Faraday's notes on space=time are in the folder Ceasar looked in with the maps

Black Swan said...

aw.. everybody's leaving? Well, good night then! I'm rewatching and getting screen caps

Capcom said...

G'nite you'se guys. :-)

Melissa_Lossa said...

Oh, one last question - did Frank manage to land the plane on the Others' runway?

Capcom said...

Hey, get some caps of those notes Blacky! Pretty please? :-)

memphish said...

I'll accept that good and bad are relative, so I'll rephrase. Who wants to save Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, etc. and who wants them all dead -- Ben or Widmore? Or do they both want them all dead? And doesn't crashing a whole new set of people on the Island just further mess things up? Whose side is Hawking on? Christian?

Capcom said...

I dunno, was that the Ajira plane in the jungle that they showed? Have to rewatch to see for sure if it was on a tiny runway.

Capcom said...

Ya got me Memphish, I still don't know even if you rephrase it. :o)

Sayid'sgirl said...

I've got a question. Whose the woman Frank took off with in the middle of the night? Was it Sun? And if it was why didn't she leave the plane with Jack Kate and Hurley?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Oh yeah, where's Sayid? With Ceasar's group lost in the jungle or what?

Black Swan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Black Swan said...

I'm guessing it's Faraday's office back when the DI was in it's hayday. Locke is ressurected because it's in the past, before he's dead?

Capcom said...

Super awesome Blacky, thanks!

Now, why the heck is Dan's notebook there? Could he have copied his page from that?

Capcom said...

Ohhhhhh. Hmm.

LostIt said...

What was taht station where those maps and the injured people were? Was that the hydra? Did the plane land on the "runway" that was being built there?

It did look like there were two islands - a bigger one and a smaller one - when they showed that night shot with the full moon.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Frank's one heck of a pilot.

Capcom said...

You can say that again! And would the runway even be there, if they are in the past before the Losties were in the cages and were digging it out?

Black Swan said...

those caps again:

Faraday's notes on space time

Life magazine 1

Life magazine 2

LostIt said...

I don't konw. Did the plane land in the past or did it land in the present? Aren't those the outriggers that the LBs saw? That would have to have been after the O6 left the island because the camp was there and had been trashed.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I don't know either.
But I'm thinking the plane Locke, Ben Ceasar and Co. maybe Sun are in the future.
Jack, Kate and Hurley are in the past.
And I'm not sure where Sayid is.

Black Swan said...

This pic is from when Locke is standing in the water looking at the other Island and they close=up on the shoes:

Christian's shoes on the beach

Sayid'sgirl said...

Well I guess by future I mean present. lol It's future to Jack.
I think. :)

Black Swan said...

I'm not sure where anyone is.. lol!

Does it look like the main Island in that pic?

LostIt said...

I think they landed on the hydra island and the other one is the main island. Some of them must have taken the outriggers to the other island to either find Lapidus or to check it out, landing at the losties beach camp. Then I'm guessing that it was the cop who was escorting Sayid that shot at the LBs in the boat.

Capcom said...

Wow, great job Blacky! :-D

Yeah, I'm all mixed up now, I've got to go watch it again.

Ciao and g'nite all! Gonna have some weird dreams after seeing Ben choke Locke like that. :-o

Black Swan said...

Are those your boats (John asks)
Ilana (i think is her name) says No, there used to be three;
the pilot and a woman took one

Black Swan said...

Aw, c'mon capcom, Ben's just helping Locke not commit a sin.. LOL! good-night!

Capcom said...

Good news, Dennis' FringeTelevision blog is back! Whew. Wonder what happened.

Wow Blacky, you are doing fantastic screencaps! Who needs DarkUFO?! :-D

LostIt said...

I'm going to have to re-watch. I get the feeling there's a lot going on in the background that I missed.

Black Swan said...

The boats from:

The Little Prince

Black Swan said...

Thanks capcom, just call me DarkSwan

Black Swan said...

That's what i'm doing Lostit... re-watching and taking screencaps (right here on the couch with my laptop.. lol!)

They are misleading us with those boats? They don't look the same, do they?

Black Swan said...

How many of you thought Locke was going to put the Mango in his mouth and smile? Ok, how many thought it was an orange before they showed it was a mango that Ilana brings him for 'breakfast'? LOL!

Black Swan said...

I'm sorry.. I'm all alone and have to do this:

107

LostIt said...

It's hard to tell because they're at different angles. I do'nt know if that blue one is the one in the background from the Little Prince or not. The one in the front could be the not-blue one.

Black Swan said...

108!!!!!!!!!!!

There has to be a prize for this!!

LostIt said...

Hey! I got 108! Sorry, black swan.

Black Swan said...

Lostit, you took my 108!! darn!

Those boats, idk, I need a better cap from The little prince.. maybe later.

Black Swan said...

LOL, I don't think you're sorry, Lostit!! If there's a prize, I'm coming after you! :-)

Won't 2costa be disappointed that Walt isn't Abaddon?

Black Swan said...

Ilana gives Locke the same, 'you've got to be kidding me, you weird man' look that Kate gives him in the pilot when he flashes that orange-slice smile at her.

Black Swan said...

sorry, she gives him that look when Locke says, I remember dying

Twinkle said...

Here are my impressions then I'm going up to read the comments.

Hurley's reaction when he finds out Locke is really there is classic! He's not shocked if he is a ghost but the real thing is frightful. LOL!

The suicide came a lot faster after talking to them that I thought it would. Was he despairing or did he really believe he had to die to make it happen?

Ben & Widmore - They're like like a really convoluted, dysfunctional family.

I hate to see Ben talk Locke out of doing what he was supposed to do again. Ooh, and then Ben fulfills the prophecy himself! Cool!

Dude! Why do these episodes always seem so short!

LostIt said...

If there's a prize, I'll share it with you, OK? :)

I'm gonna re-watch and then hit the hay. G'night.

Black Swan said...

Thanks, Lostit! good-night!

Yeah, Twinkle.. Ben and Widmore = Bad Twins

Black Swan said...

I don't think those surviellance cameras were there when Ben landed in Tunisia in 2005, so they were installed after that, and Ben's arrival already gave Widmore the head's up?


camera on Locke when he lands in Tunisia

Black Swan said...

It took awhile for that truck to come and take Locke. He was in the dark shivering with cold when they finally came.

Black Swan said...

They showed that license plate of the truck more than once, but what's the significance?
license plate

Twinkle said...

Also, what Locke told Jack explains the way Jack talked about his father in that drunk Jack in the hospital episode. Remember how confusing that was and how much discussion it generated?

Love Zig Ziglar, Capcom! He turned my life around in the 6th grade, according to my mother.

So why did Frank take off with one of the canoe things and who was the lady he took with him?

We know Ben doesn't tell the truth except to suit his purposes, but I don't want Widmore telling the truth either.

Which Dharma station are the new Losties in?

Did you notice that Locke, explaining the Dharma Initiative, said "*We* were running experiments." Did I hear that right?

It looked to me like the plane has landed on some trees.

LostIt said: Did the plane land in the past or did it land in the present? Aren't those the outriggers that the LBs saw? That would have to have been after the O6 left the island because the camp was there and had been trashed.

I agree. It seems to me that this is right before our Losties flash to this time point and take a second canoe.

Walt could still totally be Abaddon. He'd just need to go back in time a bit.

I agree that those cameras weren't there when Ben landed. I bet he did it because of Ben. At first I thought it was Ben who set up the cameras.

Twinkle said...

Good connection with Bad Twins!

Black Swan said...

So, Widmore says he was their leader (the others) before Ben was and Ben tricked him into leaving the Island. For some reason this surprises me because he was 17 when we saw him there with Richard in Jughead and he seemed like such a snot and Richard didn't even like him. If Richard liked Ben better (or if Jacob told him that's the way it should be) then I can see Richard becoming much more important in the story.

Black Swan said...

Twinkle, so you think a future and present 'self' could be at the same place at the same time (I'm talking Abaddon and Walt)

Black Swan said...

I think Frank and Sun took off in one of the boats to the main Island looking for the rest of the O6

Twinkle said...

The rabbits did it, briefly. And Walt and Abaddon didn't touch. I think it's highly unlikely though.

One curious thing was Widmore saying that they had defended the island for a few decades. Why only a few decades? Why did they start defending the island? Did Richard recruit people for the first time around the time of the Jughead? Who was on the island before then?

Twinkle said...

Why Sun? Why not the stewardess?

Black Swan said...

Good questions, Twinkle. The only thing we know at this point is that Richard and Co. were defending the Island in 1954 and the caps of the Life magazine I gave earlier show 1954 and the "color pictures of the Hydrogen Test" and "The Awsome Fireball" dated April 19, 1954.

Black Swan said...

Sun is desperate to find Jin!

Black Swan said...

Widmore says the Others are his people, that they protected the Island peacefully for more than three decades and then he was exiled by "him" (Ben) and I guess this takes the time-line to the purge?

So, Widmore is telling Locke he's also a victim of Ben's exiling, presumably to get control of the Island again. At least this is what Widmore wants Locke to believe.

Twinkle said...

And you think she wasn't transported back in time with the other Losties? Why would that be? I figured all our Losties were transported back in time with the flash but were in a different location. So Sun and Sayid are together and Jack, Kate, and Hurley are together. But I like the image of Sun holding Frank at gun point to take her to the other island.

Young Wallace said...

As soon as Widmore said he was exiled by "him", I thought Jacob. Anyone else think that? Or exiled by Christian?

And speaking of Christian...
(someone mentioned this) but it would definitely make sense that CS is alive and resurrected on the island (like Locke) and not just a phantasm.

Twinkle said...

Very well could be but he's definitely not normal. Speaking for Jacob, knowing where to be when and what messages to deliver, all adds up to some definite creepiness.

Young Wallace said...

Also, I didn't really think that people got transported to different times (as has been briefly mentioned). The LBs were always in the same time; Jin ended up being in the same time as the LBs; so in my mind, the Ajira's are in the same time together (not scattered through time), AND they're in the same time as the LBs.

Black Swan said...

I think all the ones on the plane were transported back to an earlier time, the same time Sawyer & Co. are in now. I think they all went back to before the purge. I can't figure out where Sayid is.

I don't think Sun would have to pull a gun on Frank, necessarily. He knows about the main Island and why wouldn't he help her. They would keep it a secret from the others, though, and didn't know Locke would be walking around in a monk's garb with Christian's shoes.. LOL!

I think the reason Locke is alive is because it's 30 years or so earlier. He just simply isn't dead YET.

Black Swan said...

Locke asks Widmore why would he want to help him getting the O6 back to the Island, and he says because there's a war coming and if Locke's not back on the Island when that happens, then the wrong side is going to win. Ok, so the war is the purge?

Young Wallace said...

I disagree with the theory that Locke is alive because he went back in time and therefore isn't dead yet. That doesn't make sense with how they've traveled through time. In 1954, he wouldn't have been born yet, but he was still there. Whenever they travel, their bodies don't take on the form of the year they travel to, they are always in their early Jan 2005 state.

Now that doesn't really answer why he's alive. Island healing properties fixed his trachea? Not sure why it couldn't heal Boon/Shannon/Ana Lucia/Libby/Nikki/Paulo/Eco/Ethan/etc/
though. I guess John really is special.

Black Swan said...

The other thing that makes me think they aren't the same boats is that Ilana says the pilot and a woman took off in the middle of the night, but there were more people in the boat chasing Faraday and Co. and it was daytime (before a flash to a stormy night)

Black Swan said...

LOL, Young Wallace.. I actually think they're all dead already, but I won't get into that unless my buddy Chucklez aka annonymous is here to support me on that one!

Black Swan said...

And I think it's different being on the Island and going through time flashes than it is leaving the Island and coming back through a certain bearing. Seeing the plane there (Frank did an excellent job landing that thing!) proves that those on the flight didn't just 'flash' onto the Island through Ms. Hawking's 'windows'

Matt said...

Good episode - I enjoyed it more than last weeks. I definitely agree that Frank somehow landed the plane on the runway, but that leads to the biggest question of the episode - when the heck is everyone! Here is why I think that they are in different times

Jack, Kate, Sawyer - we know for a fact that they are on the big island (because of the waterfall) and that they are at some point during which Dharma is functioning (because of Jin in a Dharma suit and his van is nice and clean)

Caesar, Ilana, Locke and other survivors of 316 are on the small island (because of the Hydra station) and that they are most likely post 2005 (Dan's notes, cruddy wall in the office that wouldn't be cruddy were it during Dharma's era, and John saying that Dharma ran experiments a "while back" - assuming that he somehow knew this for sure)

I DEFINTELY think that was a runway that the plane (the fully intact plane I may add) was laying on. This is where I get really confused. If Kate and Sawyer were building it, how did it get complete after they left and Ben's group disassembled. If there was one there previously and the 316ers are actually in the past with everyone else, why does the Hydra look like a dump and what would make John think that he had come back to the future.

Young Wallace said...

interesting thought DarkSwan. Perhaps the ones that crashed aren't with the ones that flashed. Did we get the sense that John wasn't "with" the ones that crashed, that he showed up at their camp later? And obviously Ben was with crashers, so he probably didn't flash. But you're right, the flashers may be in another time, whereas the crashers are in "real" time (whatever that is).

Time for bed, and since I think it's just you and me Swan, I bid thee adieu.

Matt said...

I agree about the flashes. It looks like Caesar and them remember landing and they landed in 2007 - the rest got flashed back to the 1970's

I didn't think about this when I posted my last comment (like 5 seconds ago) - it makes sense that they could have landed in 2007/2008 (whatever is present day)

Black Swan said...

Good night, Young Wallace.
Just for fun, here is:

Ben's new passport as Bentham

Twinkle said...

The boats on the island and the trashed camp, plus the points you mentioned, all point to a time in the future or 2008/9 for the Crashers.

The Flashers seem definitely in the future.

One question we also need to ask is who came in three of those canoes? Are they still on the island and are they friendlies?

Black Swan: Do you have a screen cap of the landed plane?

I would like to know if Locke remembers crawling out of the coffin in the cargo hold.

Twinkle said...

The passport is interesting. I wonder if the details have any significance. According to Lostpedia Locke was born 30 May 1956 in
Tustin, CA. The passport puts him 7 years older.

Black Swan said...

Twinkle, I was just looking to get a cap of the landed plane. And I don't trust Ceasar.. lol! Ilana tells him (when he gives her the flashlight and hiding the fact that he has that gun) that someone found 'a man', Locke, and he was just standing in the water.. I'll get that cap of the plane..

Black Swan said...

I don't think the passport would neccessarily have Locke's real info. Anything close enough would work?

Matt said...

At least we can be sure of one thing about the canoes - the ones on the deserted camp are not the same as Karl's. The boards leading out to the outrigger are curved on the beach canoes and are straight on Karl's.

(I don't know how to attach a picture but you can search "outrigger" on lostpedia for the pics.)

Twinkle said...

Well they don't seem to be Others... Looking forward to their back story too!

Ceasar reminds me of Charlotte, the polar bear, and her ardent desire to know about all things island.

Twinkle said...

I agree. The outriggers definitely come from somewhere or somewhen else.

Matt said...

The two outriggers behind Locke and Ilana are DEFINITELY the same as the ones at the deserted camp. From the lostpedia picture, you can see that there is one with metal trim that has curved limbs that go out to 1 outrigger and one with blue trim that has curved limbs going out to 2 outriggers.

Black Swan said...

Picture 1 the plane

Picture of plane 2

maven said...

A lot of info in this episode. Some initial thoughts:

What place was Cesar and Alana looking through? Those maps and notes looked familiar: Daniel's and Rousseau's maps?

So Ajira plane landed on land in one piece? That Frank is some pilot!
And are they in a different time than the Losties? Did Sun and Frank take one of the outriggers? Who left them there?

The first thing Locke does is take off Christian's shoes.

So Abaddon is definitely working for Widmore.

Re Widmore: It's been 4 days since John saw a 17 year old Charles Widmore. But the O6 have been off the island 3 years. Having a tough time figuring this one out. And he says he was the leader of his people (not the Others) for 3 decades and was exiled by "him". Was "him" Ben or Jacob?

The picture of Sayid building a house in the folder is the same as when Locke shows up in Santo Domingo. And I didn't know Sayid spoke Spanish.

So Walt is dreaming of Locke and the Ajira plane crash? Nice that Locke wants to let him be.

Everyone seems to be telling Locke to be his own person and make his own choices.

OMG! Did Ben shoot Abaddon? That car crash was very well done! Is the war that is coming Widmore vs Ben?

I agree with you guys that the plane landed on Hydra. And Frank and Sun took a canoe to the main island. And I think they are in the same time skip as our Losties. The Ajira group is back in a time when Locke was alive. The Dharma station seems pretty "fresh" (including batteries that work in the flashlight).

Now does Ben kill Locke because he knows they need a proxy for Christian? Or does he really want him out of the way?

Matt said...

The plane is definitely in the trees as seen in the second picture but they are walking on some kind of packed down surface. I don't think it is dirt because of how level and how dark it is, but it's hard to tell in the dark. i am sticking with runway

Matt said...

Maven - i agree that the items in the Hydra station are "fresh", but look at the doors - they don't look any newer than when Ben and company were down there - a lot of smudge.....

Everything sure is organized though.

maven said...

Matt: By "fresh" I mean lived in and not deserted. Having a flashlight that works with batteries would indicate something that hasn't been lying around for 30 plus years.

Matt said...

gotcha - I agree, definitely not deserted.

Black Swan said...

Yeah, sorry the pics are dark, I could probably do a better job with something other than photobucket, but too late tonight. It does look like a long, wide walkway, runway, of sorts that they are walking down as they pass the plane in the brush towards the beach.

Maven, I didn't know Sayid spoke spanish either.
I think it's Locke's redemtion to learn to believe in himself.
I thought it was nice he left Walt alone, too.
I think Ceasar and Alana are in the Hydra and the folder he looked through had a copy of Rousseau's map and Daniel's space time notes in it.
Ceasar I don't think is trustworthy.. why would he lie to her?
Yep, Ben shot Abaddon, he admitted it.
I think Widmore says he was exiled by Ben and that Ben tricked him.

maven said...

BS: Yes, I was trying to post notes and watch at the same time so I wouldn't get so far behind! I should have edited myself! LOL

Black Swan said...

Darn, it's getting too late, so I'll re-watch the rest later.. Maven, hope you've got it all figured out by morning!

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

-What was it about Jin being alive that changed the plan in Ben's head? Locke saying Eloise's name just made him take more satisfaction in a killing he was already going to do (kind of like when Locke told him that Jacob asked him to help him).

-The GF pointed out that the Ajira survivors are now having their own LOST moment. When will they meet the monster (unless they are indeed on Hydra Island)?

-Who was the woman who went with Frank? Cindy?

-What is Cesar looking for?

-What is Locke going to do to Ben now?

Matt said...

BS - I meant that it was so dark outside - I think the pictures are good. I wish I could take screen shots.

Matt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Black Swan said...

Widmore says he doesn't know why Richard would tell Locke that he had to die to get them back to the island and that he won't let that happen.... so, Locke does die and Widmore's word is no good or he really did want him to die?

I don't trust Widmore.. just a feeling.

maven said...

This Ben VS Widmore War is so confusing. They both tell good stories. And they both seem believable at times.

scoutpost said...

Well I would like to read all comments, but I've got to go to sleep. Hopefully will catch up tomorrow.

I know someone mentioned it, but what is the war that is coming? Who vs. Who? In his dream Walt said that Locke was in a suit (like the one he was wearing in this epi- funeral clothes?) and that everyone around him wanted to hurt (or kill- don't remember) him.

I like the Ben/Widmore= Bad Twins. Wonder if there is something to that?

I don't know who is telling the truth, although Widmore has a lot more credibility these days, but I don't like him or Ben. Even Penny doesn't like her father, and that is enough for me. And Ben just killed Locke- that can't be good. Oh the insanity!! LOL

Poor Locke- he is/was a real mess. He sways back and forth like a reed between Ben and Widmore- I kept thinking "he needs to take a vacation, get away from it all, sort it out", then Ben knocked on the door and that was that. What is up with Locke's specialness?

And at least now we know that Walt was supposed to go back, too. If Walt can have a psychic dream about Locke, then why can't he figure out that Michael is dead?

Anyway, good to see Walt and Abaddon, but sad to see Abaddon get killed- he was so mysterious in an ominous kind of way!

See ya'll tomorrow!

scoutpost said...

Oh! one more thing that I couldn't figure out-
Last week people were talking about the scruffy facial hair that Locke had on his face in the coffin and I didn't think much of it because hair and nails can still grow for a while after someone dies- BUT... Locke was pretty banged up from that car accident, but in the coffin he had no facial lacerations or bruising like he did when Ben killed him. I know funeral people will put makeup on people sometimes to make them look good, but he would've had to have a lot of makeup to cover up some of those scratches and scrapes. Not to mention, his cast was taken off because Jack put Christian's shoes on both feet and there was no sign of cast or broken leg. Does this make sense?

Carol Dunstan said...

I loved this ep, not as gripping as The Constant but lots of chunks to chew on.

I noticed the absence of the cast too, when Jack was putting the shoes on Locke.

I think those that were supposed to rturn to the island were flashed into the past, the time their friends are stuck in, and are on the main island. Those who weren't supposed to be there ended up on Hydra island... which makes me think the woman with Frank isn't Sun. I would have said Locke was supposed to return but since Ben was on the plane he needs to deal with him first.

Takes a Village said...

PS . Capcom,
I Love Lucy did do a version of the Niagra Falls bit,but the creepy killer guy from The Three Stooges film, was who Ben reminded me of. :)

memphish said...

Still working through the comments and listening to Jay and Jack.

First I want to say that these 316ers sure are more enterprising that the 815ers. They immediately found shelter for the injured and are investigating and taking advantage of their surroundings. Of course, there's no smoke monster on the Hydra (that we know of) so they've got that going for them.

I don't know what to make of the time discrepancies at this point in terms of the 815ers and LBs being in Dharma days, of the 316ers finding Daniel's notes. I'm glad someone IDed those. At first I thought they were Danielle's and that made no sense. I definitely think they are in different times, but as to how and why, not enough info. I think in part it's because everyone who left wasn't there. Yeah I'm talking to you Walt and Aaron.

I hope it's Sun with Frank, but I have no coherent reason why that would be. The only thing I can think of would be Locke's promise to Jin not to bring her back making the flash affect her differently. But surely, surely it's not some new character. I'm already resenting the 2 newbies and new group of redshirts taking screentime from the people I want to know about.

I have no idea when or where Sayid might be.

I like that they found Locke standing in the water and not immediately after the crash, clearly a day or two later. That's exactly what happened with Christian. Jack sees him in the water on day 3 or so. Good point about his wreck injuries. I guess he had a) a good mortician and b) 2 or so days for the Island to heal him. BTW, if we never see that broken leg again, that would be great!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Black Swan said:
The other thing that makes me think they aren't the same boats is that Ilana says the pilot and a woman took off in the middle of the night, but there were more people in the boat chasing Faraday and Co. and it was daytime (before a flash to a stormy night)

I don't think Frank and the woman would be the one's shooting at Sawyer and Co. We don't even know when that happened. It could have been days,weeks or months after the crash that they were shot at. And it was probably Ceasar.

Matt said:
Jack, Kate, Sawyer - we know for a fact that they are on the big island (because of the waterfall) and that they are at some point during which Dharma is functioning (because of Jin in a Dharma suit and his van is nice and clean)

Caesar, Ilana, Locke and other survivors of 316 are on the small island (because of the Hydra station) and that they are most likely post 2005 (Dan's notes, cruddy wall in the office that wouldn't be cruddy were it during Dharma's era, and John saying that Dharma ran experiments a "while back" - assuming that he somehow knew this for sure)


The map in the papers Ceasar found had location of Dharma stations marked on it. So I don't think this was Danielle's map. Although I did last night before I took another look.
Black Swan is right the other paper is Daniel's space time calculations.

The thing with the outriggers. I think Locke and that group are on the island in present time 2007/08. Which would be the future to Sawyer and Co. when the found the outriggers. We don't know what happened between 2004 Sawyer's group time and 2007/08 Locke's group time. We haven't been shown that yet.

The outriggers could belong to anybody. There could be another group of others (who built the outriggers) or another group of "losties". And I'm sure Richard is still around somewhere.

The war that was mentioned by Widmore. Is this why Ms. Hawking says God help us all? Is that why the O6 needed to go back? To fight or prevent this war.

I think Frank and Sun took the outrigger. Sun is looking for Jin. I'm not sure why Sun didn't flash with the other's to the 70's though unless she was never meant to go back to the island. If she hadn't left she would be dead now.

I think that's why Ben didn't flash he's not suppose to go back to the island. Not sure about why Locke didn't flash.

And of course where and when is Sayid?

Maybe each group has a purpose in each timeline.

And I'm still wondering who Chang and Daniel were trying to reach in the Comic Con video.

Scoutpost
I can understand the cuts and bruises being covered up. It's amazing what morticians can hide on accident victims. But why was the cast missing?

Sayid'sgirl said...

oops I'm sorry. I meant to say I agree with you matt after your quote.

Black Swan said...

Sayid'sgirl said...

I don't think Frank and the woman would be the one's shooting at Sawyer and Co. We don't even know when that happened. It could have been days,weeks or months after the crash that they were shot at. And it was probably Ceasar


I don't think it's Frank and 'the woman' (who I think is Sun) were the ones shooting at Sawyer & Co. either.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I'm sorry Black Swan. I misunderstood you.

When you say you don't think they're the same boats. Do you mean the same boats as the ones Sawyer's group found?

I think they are the same boats. Sawyer only finds two. Frank and Sun took the other one.

I think Ceasar is probably shooting at Sawyer and his group.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Or did Sawyer find 3 outriggers?
I'll have to go check.

At any rate I still think they are the same boats.

And who was using them before the crash? Different others? The same others lead by Richard. Other people lost on the island like our losties?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Got to go run some errands and get my hair cut.
Be back later for more discussion.
I still need to re watch.

memphish said...

My thinking on the outriggers is that there are 3 on Hydra. Frank and female take 1 to main beach. Later Locke, Iliana (?) and Cesar and redshirts take a second one to the beach. LBs flash to beach and take 1 outrigger; Cesar and crew return to beach (without Locke) and give chase to LBs firing the sawed off shotgun. Juliet shot Cesar.

bigdog said...

good morning,

Alot to chew on in an hour and 6 minutes. but not a lot to comment on.

Loved hurley's reaction to a real person vs dead island people. And really liked seeing Walt all grown up.

i would guess that sun and sayid are together and that Frank left with the new Cindy.

if the plane landed fully intact, why didnt the LBers see it when the flashed to the future time?

Bad Twins - Great analysis.
DarkSwan - Great screencaps.

I really dislike Ceaser, why would he be appointed the leader so quickly. he is definately up to something.

Walt sees the future? did he say that people were trying to hurt locke?

the island doesnt seem to be healing Ben so quickly this time.

Amused2bHere said...

Hey all, great episode! Love the answers we are getting now...

Why would they bury you with a cast? I think the undertaker would remove it, maybe tape the bones in place (ah, another use for duck tape!)

Poor Abbadon!
Ben killed Locke? omg omg omg
Poor Helen!
Sayid speaks Spanish because he's been there for over a year...he only spent 2 years chasing Ben's targets down. Seems to me it's likely he's been working with that group for a while, maybe long enough to learn that much language.


more later, folks!

memphish said...

The more I think about it the more I think Desmond and his game analogy is correct. Widmore and Ben and Hawking have to move the 815ers around this game board to accomplish some goal (world domination like Risk?) There's no reason we've seen why Widmore or Ben need Locke or anyone else to find the Island. There's no reason Widmore can't use the Lamppost anymore than Ben and the 815ers can.

memphish said...

I wonder if when you turn the FDW it means you can't go back, not to the Island, but in time on the Island. So you can't go back and change things, i.e. Widmore can't go back and not be conned by Ben, and Ben did not go back to DI days like the O3 (or more). But clearly Ben did turn the wheel and go back to the Island as did Locke. But they went in present day, not the past, and it's the past that Widmore wants to change(?).

memphish said...

So Penny was born or at least conceived on the Island right? Unless, she like Alex was adopted.

In 1954 Widmore is 17. They guarded the Island over 3 decades, that takes it the 1980s. Then Widmore is "exiled by Him." Locke assumes Ben, but Widmore doesn't confirm that. And in 2007 Widmore should be 70 years old. Penny has to be at least 30, right? And that's generous. That means she was born when he was 40 and that should mean Widmore was still on the Island.

bigdog said...

thinking like a game. then there has to be an end. is control of the island the end game or destruction of the island.

bigdog said...

memphish, is your new avitar how you were when the previews were playing... LOL

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

I don't know a lot about guns, but I'm thinking there's no way that the shots fired on Juliet, Sawyer and crew in the outrigger were coming from a sawed-off shotgun.

memphish said...

Re the avatar -- You got it BigDog.

I noticed a Smoking prohibited by law sign on the door of Walt's school. Remember all the No smoking signs last season?

I love that Hurley thinks Locke is a ghost. It also dawns on me that Abaddon did in fact work for Oceanic since it seems that Widmore controls Oceanic.

Black Swan said...

Bigdog, glad you like the screencaps and the Bad Twin analogy
you said...
if the plane landed fully intact, why didnt the LBers see it when the flashed to the future time?

Well, it seems they can't see much when the flashes happen since they all have their eyes closed. And since I think the plane landed on the Hydra Island and not the main Island, it explains it more. Seems like they would hear a plane go down, though. Unless it was a stormy night? hmmm (and of course, Frank is an exceptional pilot)


I think we need to hear and see more of Jacob and Richard!

memphish said...

So Ben can't kill Widmore, and it seems Widmore also cannot kill Ben, but Ben can kill Locke and Christian can die. Not really going anywhere with this, just noting it.

maven said...

Great observations gang. I'm totally confused about who's where and in what time skip, and who's in how many canoes! LOL

My hubby had a great thought. Ben seemed to be waiting for Locke to spill the beans as to Eliose Hawking, and as soon as he told Ben that that was who he needed to see, Ben sprang into action and killed him. Killing him was part of the plan (since he brought disinfectant, gloves and rags).

memphish said...

Here's a cool idea from a Jay and Jack caller. What if they woman with Frank is Claire? I like that. Maybe Frank died in the crash and she came to claim him like Christian did her.

memphish said...

I was glad to see that Locke unlike Faraday took off his tie.

lost2010 said...

Whose on our side?

Widmore had Alex, Danielle, and Karl killed. He had Claire's house blown up and she may be dead. Wid gave the order to the freightees to kill everyone on the island which would have included our losties.

Ben and Widmore share the blame for killing Michael.

Ben has killed his father, Abaddon, Locke and may have gone after Penny. He gave an order to kill any of our losties that got in the way when he sent his people after the pregnant women.

The people that Widmore and Ben both claim as their own have perpetrated the following:

-killed the entire dharma intiative
-had Michael kill Ana and Libby
-shot Sawyer
-killed Charlie

Our losties (if you count the tailies) have perpetrated the following:

On Island
-Killed Goodwin
-Killed Ethan
-Killed Shannon
-Killed the Original Sawyer
-Killed a few redshirt Others
-Not to mention their pre-island kills

I'm starting to see why either faction would like to recruit the losties. . .they fit right in.

However, I'm just not seeing that either side cares whether the losties live or die.

I'm getting that Widmore is motivated by wanting his island back. Whereas Ben is motivated more by keeping the island away from Widmore, if that makes sense.

Twinkle said...

Ooh! Outrigger thought -

The two outriggers are on the Hydra island with the Crashers.

Sawyer and crew find two outriggers (the same ones according to Matt) on the main island near the camp. So that puts it around the same time but probably after given the Aijira water bottle. Caesar has a gun. Could the Crashers have boated over to the main island and then Caesar shot at Sawyer's group?

scoutpost said...

bigdog said...if the plane landed fully intact, why didnt the LBers see it when the flashed to the future time?

Because the LBers are on the main island and it appears Frank landed the plane on Hydra island.

memphish- I agree with you that the dates with Widmore and Penny don't quite add up. Also, did Widmore mean that his people guarded the island for 3 decades with him as leader, or were "his people" in power before he led them? I guess "his people" were in power until Dharma got there? Or maybe it was Ben who exiled Widmore after the purge and after Richard declared Ben leader of the Others- which would be in the 80's. But that would mean that Penny should remember the island, right?

And I still can't understand why Hawkings and Ben seem to be on the same side.

lost2010 said...

Twinkle - I think that sounds very plausible, indeed.

scoutpost said...

ooh memphish I like the Jay and Jack caller idea of Claire coming to get Frank.
And LOL about the tie. Thank goodness Locke has enough sense to take off his tie!

Twinkle said...

Ben and Widmore - two brutal toddlers fighting over the same toy and their mommy's affection

Richard Alpert makes a bad nanny!

scoutpost said...

Twinkle- I know the whole Ben vs. Widmore reminds me of Bad Twins or Jacob vs. Esau...

I'm really beginning to think that Locke (or anyone else for that matter) should not trust either Ben or Widmore...then who should he/they trust?

And what about Desmond...what does the island want with him?

Do you all think that Walt will eventually have to go back, or that he will be able to stay in the real world?

lost2010 said...

Ben: No, John. Don't do this. The island is strongly opposed to suicide - murder on the other hand - not so much.

John: I have to do this Ben. None of them believe me. I'm a failure.

Ben: I think Jack believes you. Heck, he's on so many drugs he believes Geronimo Jackson is making a comeback.

John: No, it was bad. I just got lectured by Kate Austin on LOVE. Seriously. Kate Austin.

Ben: Kate Austin.

John: Yep.

Ben: Oh. Here let me help you with that noose.

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