Wednesday, January 28, 2009

Jughead - Season 5, Episode 3














Tonight's episode, in 25 words or less:

Desmond goes in search of a woman who could be the key to helping Faraday stop the island's erratic movements through time.

Comments away!

371 comments:

1 – 200 of 371   Newer›   Newest»
DeDJeZTeR said...

Whats everyone think so far?

Ange said...

First?

DeDJeZTeR said...

Sorry Ange... lol

Capcom said...

I really luuuuv the Dez and Penny show. :o)

Melissa_Lossa said...

Hope you guys don't mind the bare bones post!

Ellen said...

Here!

Ellen said...

The army guys are others...wow, didn't see that coming!

Capcom said...

Bomb?!

jess4ua said...

Daniel is so freaking shady!

Capcom said...

That's cool Melissa, you did great on the fly!

memphish said...

Why won't they tell us little Hume's name?

Otherwise my response is "huh?"

Ellen said...

They know Daniel! and of course, ageless Richard is the leader in that time-period!
xxoo

Capcom said...

Very interesting how Dan totally takes Miles at his ghostbusting word. Hmmmm.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Between the show playing, and my dog climbing on me and my husband talking and trying to post, I almost didn't make it!

So, what's up with Daniel and Richard?

Ange said...

Me thinks we know who "Little Hume" is Memphish.

jess4ua said...

Who Ange?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Good I'm not first again.
So who are Richard "others" fighting. I thought the flaming arrow people were others or at least native to the island.

Sayid'sgirl said...

That took 5 times and 2 refreshes to post.

Capcom said...

Must be WWII era. Dan's pretty slick.

Ellen said...

OMG, a hydrogen bomb...wow.
awwww...he loves her...I knew it.

DeDJeZTeR said...

So Dan finally said those three little words... sort of... lol

Why did the Dharma initiative have a hydrogen bomb?

Melissa_Lossa said...

Dan loves Charlotte. Ew.

Capcom said...

Maybe it's just WWII bomb testing on remote islands, kind of stuff and he's just playing along with whenever they are.

Black Swan said...

whoa... John says, one of my people?!?!

Capcom said...

H-bomb + energy source = Incident? Nahhhhh.

lost2010 said...

Anybody else starting the think the woman Juliet looks just like is. .. Juliet.

Ange said...

Dunno Jess, but I get the feeling when they say his name we'll go OHHHHHHHHH!

Good one Lost2010.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I don't think it' the others bomb.
It belongs to the U.S. soldiers.

Takes a Village said...

Richard,the ageless wonder.

jess4ua said...

OHHH I get it Ange

Capcom said...

Bet Teresa is in a coma or something horrible.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Rather DI not others.
Is that a young Ms. Hawking?
Dan's mom is time tripping?
Now Dan's trying to fix it.

Capcom said...

oh...my...goodness.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Anyone else think Teresa looks a bit like Charlotte?

Sayid'sgirl said...

No, I guess that's the girl the guy Des was talking to was talking about.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Ellie is the girl time tripping.

Melissa_Lossa said...

If Ellie turns out to be Ms. Hawking....

Possible?

Capcom said...

Whoa, that's a thought Melissa!

Melissa_Lossa said...

I have to give Mr. Mel credit for that one!

The hairstyle may be a clue, though - they are similar.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I miss things typing and watching sometimes.
So I'm not sure what went on when Des went to Oxford.
If Teresa is the girl in the pic at the lab. And the girl time tripping. I think she might also be Ellie.

lost2010 said...

Wasn't the rat Eloise? Ellie?

Capcom said...

How's Dan supposed to disarm the thing if the housing is compromised?

Sayid'sgirl said...

I thought woman who opened the door to Des might be a young Ms. Hawking. But would she be involved with Widmore?

DeDJeZTeR said...

Lost2010... are you asking if the girl is the rats conciousness??? lol

lost2010 said...

LOL! That's even better. . . no,I thought Dan might have named the rat for his mother or the girl. . .

Ellen said...

Jughead is name of the bomb?!!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Is that what's in the Swan!?

Capcom said...

They gave alll kinds of crazy names to bombs during testing. :o)

DeDJeZTeR said...

OMG the Army Brat is Widmore and he was an Other.... what the hell is going on here?

Sayid'sgirl said...

You guys were right Widmore is with them.

Melissa_Lossa said...

WHAT?!

jess4ua said...

Holy S%*#

Melissa_Lossa said...

Sayid's Girl - good call on the Swan.

lost2010 said...

So, Widmore was sort of a second in command and Ben usurped his role? Surely there's more to it than that. . ..there has to be.

Ellen said...

ohhh, I'm in total ecstacy...Jones IS Charles Widmore! Whoever said it first, great guess! Widmore was an Other! OMG!!!!

Capcom said...

Juicy, very juicy.

acewebguy said...

Hi everyone!

Cool, I said last week that he was Widmore!

They tried to throw us off by having him swap shirts with Private Jones

Capcom said...

Well that would sure be the start of a lifelong feud, Lost2010! Deja vu for Ben with Locke then, too. Talk about what goes around.....:-)

Sayid'sgirl said...

Thanks Melissa.

Takes a Village said...

In the pop-ups it said Daniel's Mom was named Eloise.

Melissa_Lossa said...

On a side note - Des looks HOT in that scarf.

lost2010 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
acewebguy said...

They seemed to change it up tonight but...

Am I the only one who has been fooled all week by the Life on Mars promos? The intro sounds just like a Lost promo so everytime I hear it I automatically look up at the tv.

DeDJeZTeR said...

Awwwwwwwwwwww.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Aw, Charlie!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Aw Charlie. I hope after Charlie Pace
not his grandad.

acewebguy said...

In Los Angeles...that still seems to leave open the possibility of Hawking being Daniel's mother

acewebguy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeDJeZTeR said...

Of course its Charlie PACE...; don't be rediculamoose!

Ellen said...

Well, I must say, hated it to end...great episode!!!!
I'm going to watch Life on Mars now...love it!
Talk to you guys tomorrow!
xxoo

Capcom said...

Or, redunkulous. :o)

Ange said...

Would it be totally wrong and/or gross if Penny's son turns out to be her father. LOL.

memphish said...

Ange and Jess did you somehow know the name was Charlie? That's the first tear-jerking moment of the season for me. If Ben Linus hurts Penny or Charlie he will be unredeemable for all time.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Well, if Eloise the rat was named after Eloise, Dan's mom, then I think there's definitely a possibility that Ellie and Eloise are one and the same.

Capcom said...

LOL, Ellen, I've tried to watch that show, but I really can't stand to relive the '70s. :-p

Ange said...

No Memphish, I just had a feeling the name would ring bells for us.

lost2010 said...

I was just glad the poor kid's name wasn't Jacob!

Melissa_Lossa said...

All right, the dog needs to go out, and I need to get to bed. Back tomorrow!

Good night!

Capcom said...

Hoowee, Lost2010, you're right.

acewebguy said...

I had this thought about Teresa.

When Dan was doing his testing on the rat in Oxford, if I remember correctly, it came back then eventually died.

Maybe Dan continued to refine his testing and eventually tried it on a human test subject...Teresa.

The procedure didnt kill her, but put her mind in a time loop.

This failed experiment disgraced him and got him thron out of the University.

Takes a Village said...

Great episode.
Nite-nite.

lost2010 said...

Better yet, what if Jacob is another of Dan's test subjects. . . .or an earlier test subject of the same type experiments performed by Ellie/Eloise Hawking. . . .

memphish said...

Just one more thing and then I'm going to watch Top Chef. This episode was a bit flat for me. Mostly because so many people had already guessed about Jones/Widmore and Mrs. Hawking/Farraday. Up until the last 10 minutes or so with Charlie Hume and Charlotte collapsing I was not particularly enthralled. In fact I was knitting.

I also appreciate that we didn't jump but once in the episode, but this time travel thing is getting hokey to me. They also conveniently got rid of 2 more log-carrying guys, and managed to separate us from Rose, Bernard and the rest of the redshirts for who knows how long.

I agree that the Swan is enclosing Jughead, but I don't really get the who, what, where, why of that. How did the US Army find this special Island? And if they know where it was why didn't they do something about all the soldiers who died on it. That felt like a 24 moment to me. Let's bomb the crap out of Sengala and move on. The bomb failed as a plot mover for me.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Ok!Ok! guys. sheesh.
Charlie Pace jr.

Capcom said...

That sounds about right to me Ace (she may have even volunteered for it, but no one knew and blamed Professor Dan for it). It's the most logical thing for us to guess at this point, unless we get more info.

lost2010 said...

So, I messed up and didn't click off the promo, can we talk that too? Or is that off-limits here?

Capcom said...

Oh no, I wasn't saying you were ridiculaous Sayidsgirl, I was just continuing the play on the word. I-so-solly! xo :-)

Sayid'sgirl said...

That's Okay capcom.
Daddy Widmore might think so.

memphish said...

Ok one more thing. It's interesting that Widmore was funding Daniel's research and that Widmore knows where Mrs. Hawking is right now. Is it the case that Ben and Widmore are on the same side of saving the Island at this point?

I have questions, but the episode didn't really give me enough to go on. Like when did Widmore leave the Island and why?

One thing just dawned on me. Maybe Ben can't kill Widmore for the same reason Locke couldn't. He's one of "him/them." Of course, they were all willing to kill Juliet for killing Danny. That's the code though I bet. You can't kill one of us or you'll be marked or exiled.

Capcom said...

Crikey, Memphish you've got a point. What if Ben and Wid were both Mrs.H's minions or trainees, whatevs, and somehow they become rivals working at opposite ends. Weird.

Good point about the "one of us too". Once you get marked, you're expendable and no longer protected.

skweeds said...

Yeah I'm pretty positive Ellie is Dan's mom. Also, nice to see Alpert's eyeliner make a comeback in this one.

lost2010 said...

memphish - that's where I got to by the end of the episode too, that the rules are simply the Others code of conduct and by breaking a rule, Widmore opened himself up the same way Juliet opened herself up by killing Pickett.

Sayid'sgirl said...

It's interesting that Locke told Richard to come see him when he was born. And he did.

lost2010 said...

sayidsgirl - I liked that part too.

Capcom said...

Hey Skweeds. :-)

Wow, so will we get to see Widmore's mark??? :-O BTW, Charles looks much better shaved, IMO.

Black Swan said...

Yes, I liked that they showed us why Richard was staring throught the window of the hospital when Locke was born. Of course, now I want to see that again.

I'm still rewatching and one thing that struck me is that picture that Desmond finds in Dan's old lab room above the physics dept. at Oxford. It's Daniel and a blond woman and the first thing I thought of was the DeGroots from TLE. (and they were also partly funded by Widmore).
Here's the pic

scoutpost said...

Well crap. My recording screwed up about half way through the episode and now I'll have to wait until tomorrow night to see the rest. ugh. I'll catch up with ya'll Friday.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Black Swoan
Are rewatching I think the girl in the picture in the lab is Theresa.

2costa said...

on the enhanced 5x2 they said hawkings first name was eloise, just as daniel's rat was named eloise, ben seemed to visit hawkings in the l.a. area, so i think that eloise hawkings is daniel's mother.

the curios thing that i figured out during the episode is that Elle the peer of young island widmore. The girl that took daniel to defuse the bomb, was indeed young Eloise Hawkings. that is why daniel said she reminded him of someone. Hawkings and widmore wern't always time travel experts, the 815'ers time jumping is what set Hawkings on a path toward harnessing time travel off the island. It reminded me of like sarah conner before she gets hers first vistor from the future. Going form naive to cunning. It also reminds me of the notion from movies and conspiracy therories of like a piece of alien technology recovered from roswell was ground zero for the technology explosion

MadAriad said...

Hey there! Just checking in for email and then going to bed - probably won't be back on till Friday, though.

My brain is imploding from all the new connections!! lol

maven said...

I know not too many of you are around now. My mind is spinning just because of all the crazy connections on this episode. WOW...it's a small world after all!

--Awwwww, baby Charlie! Charlie is reborn!
--I really buy it that Ellie is a young Eloise Hawking, which makes it very strange that Daniel is interacting with his hot, young mother!
--So all the equipment and weapons were stolen from the Army that set up shop on THEIR island. One would think that the Army wouldn't take too kindly to all their personnel killed or disappearing and having an active H-Bomb missing.
--I don't know in the 1954 Richard we have someone who really knew everything about the island. They just have a protocol for picking leadership. Did they know about FDW then?
--What's the deal with the Latin?
--Agree with most of you that Teresa is an experiment that went wrong. She's still in a time loop...remembering her dolly and her old father. But why did her sister let Desmond in when he name-dropped Daniel? Apparently, she is made at what Daniel did to her sister.
--Juliet confirms that Richard has always been there and is very old.
--Great Sawyer line to Juliet: "Are you gonna stay here in crazy town or help me rescue the geek?"
--Widmore told his security that Desmond was a colleague of his...strange choice of word to me.
--So Widmore was funding Dan's research for 10 years.
--Widmore asks if Penny was safe...not how she is. Apparently, there's trouble ahead.
--Jones is Young Charles Widmore! We're brilliant, aren't we?
--Interesting how they tie in Locke telling Richard to come to Tustin in 2 years to see him born. I guess Richard really believes Locke is the new leader, because he makes that long trip.

That's it for now.

Carol Dunstan said...

OMG... I've only just started watching the ep, but I totally did not see that start coming!

Carol Dunstan said...

gah, I hate not getting on till after everyone else is gone!

I feel like I am going to have to watch The Constant again... how many years has Eloise been like that? Minkowski didn't last anywhere near that long.

Teresa's name make sme think of Boone "Teresa fell up the stairs, Teresa fell down the stairs"

And now Richard Evergreen has the compass back, to put in front of Locke in about 7 years time (Locke was about 5 wasn't he?)

Carol Dunstan said...

Locke is really making his own future... they're expecting him (when the Others first meet him) because he told them he was going to be their leader

memphish said...

Dawned on me this morning that Charlie Hume's name has a double connection -- Charlie Pace and Charles Widmore.

Good callback on Teresa Carol.

It kind of bugs me that Dan's mom's name being Eloise was in the pop-ups. That puts the people who watched the pop-ups ahead of everyone else. Well at least we know about it here.

So if you aren't supposed to kill each Other, then Widmore changed/broke the rules from the very beginning with his plan to kill everyone on the Island. Killing Karl changed the rules because he was an Other. And that made killing Alex changing the rule not because she was Ben's daughter, but because she was an Other. I don't know. But I like that interpretation better than the mob's families are off limits type rule.

memphish said...

My idea that you can't kill one of your own is broken by Widmore in the episode when he breaks that guy's neck. Mabye that will lead to him being banished? Don't know. And Locke killed that other one. So now I'm backing down from that idea.

Anonymous said...

I read in a few other places that people think Ellie (girl with gun) might be Penny's and or Dan's mom.

memphish said...

Yeah Anon. I think most people think Ellie is Dan's mom. Others think Widmore is Dan's dad. Which grosses me out. I've heard less of Ellie is Penny's mom, though their hair color is similar. :-)

skweeds said...

It would be interesting if Widmore was Faraday's father, because that would make his situation somewhat similar to Claire's (Remember Christian paying for Claire's mother's health care?)

memphish said...

So the Others dressing up in costume practice goes back to at least 1954.

skweeds said...

Do you guys think we might have come to the conclusion that Ellie was Dan's mom without him saying she looked familiar?

lost2010 said...

Widmore already tried to cut off one of Juliet's hands. It'll be interesting if Sawyer and Juliet end up deciding Ben is the lesser of two evils and they are the ones that help Ben come to power. . .
thus that whole "you look just like her". . .thing.

bigdog said...

good morning, didnt love the episode, but the payoff was baby desmond being named charlie.

this time travel stuff creates a basic question for me..which comes first the chicken or the egg? Locke was destined to be the leader because he went back in time and told richard that jacob said he was. so that put in motion richard following locke. which would explain how they always had tabs on a. cooper.

memphish - i think you are right on about the rules for killing one of the others braking the rules. when widmore kills the other guy(very sayid like) he was about to give up the location of the team. i think there are also rules if they are captured. that would be why ms klugh told mikhail to shoot her.

Lisa said...

great show as usual but again, I didn't feel good when it started so I'm going to watch it again this week some time to catch the things I missed like Eloise being the name of Ms. Hawking and Dan saying Ellie looks familiar. I think I missed alot.

Anonymous said...

Okay so was Faraday adopted then?
Who was the lady talking to him when he was crying in front of the tv? His adoptive mother?

acewebguy said...

I didnt like the episode for the most part except for a few parts (ex. - the baby being named Charlie)

I am worried that TPTB are lobbing in some softballs in make things a little bit easier. For example, putting Daniel's mother's name in the popups gives us a possible answer before we even had time to form the question (does that make sense)

I have no doubt that without that tidbit someone on here would have thought outloud "I wonder if Dan recognizes Ellie ecause that is his mom"). Now the question seems to already be answered (Obviously, I believe that Ellie will turn out to be his mother)

Sayid'sgirl said...

Ok caught up with the posts.
acewebguy
I agree that Theresa was Daniels test subject and it went bad. Also I wonder if Theresa was a colleague or a girlfriend?

Carol I thought I was the only one who thought of Boone's nanny! :)
And that's a good call on the compass.
Also agree that Locke is making his own future. Ever since I started watching the promos before the season started, I've been wondering if Locke is the true leader or Jack. Now I'm wondering even more.
I've been questioning if Richard chose the wrong leader in Locke. After all Locke didn't chose the things he should have as a child.

memphish I missed Eloise's name in the popups. Last night wasn't a good night for me watching.

memphish said...

I'm predicting that Charlotte's parents are the Goodspeeds. Horace and Olivia.

memphish said...

The hole Faraday's lab covered up but still there and the injured female lab assistant totally reminded me of Fringe.

memphish said...

Boy not enough coffee. hole should be whole.

acewebguy said...

Looking back at the end of last week's episode, I noticed that the "star" that seems to be located near Guam blinked when the screen said "Event Window Determined"

Could there be a Ajira flight from LA to Guam in 70 hours that would allow the 06 and Ben to get back to the island?

Sayid'sgirl said...

I was going to say this last night but I wasn't sure. But after rewatching it. Widmore seems like a "coward" to me. Even though he broke that guys neck. He lied and said they were attacked and out numbered. Even Ellie questioned this. When Richard asked how he escaped he said he "run".
Maybe Widmore is projecting his cowardice onto Desmond. Just a thought. They way he demanded respect from Sun struck me as a person who never had it but some how aquired it. Sort of like a bully. He doesn't seem comfortable with it.

Young Wallace said...

I liked Maven's comment that Widmore called Desmond his colleague, as though his view of him has changed now that he (Des) has been on the island. Before, he always had this "holier than thou because I know of this great island and you're just a pitiful monk" kind of attitude, but now they're on level (or at least closer) ground. You're right, Maven, interesting word choice.

Also, I'm VERY interested to see who is whose parents, and what changed on the island to no longer allow child birth (especially if we find out that Charlotte was conceived and born on the island, maybe Faraday too).

Young Wallace said...

Also, great line from Widmore:
"Do you think he can track me? Do you think he knows this island better than ME??"

Sucka!

memphish said...

Sayid's Girl said Maybe Widmore is projecting his cowardice onto Desmond.

I like it.

I'm still trying to put together a 1954 Widmore with a 1970s young Ben Linus. Does this mean Widmore was on the Island for those 20+ years?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Here's a thought. Say Widmore is the leader right now. Richard has never been the leader just the one who finds each successing leader and trains them.
Maybe when the leaders start to get out of control like arrogant Widmore and later Ben they get a new leader. After all Destiny is a fickle bitch. I don't know just a thought. :)

memphish said...

I think that's possible Sayid's Girl. That's why that big time gap has me puzzled. Widmore in The Shape of Things To Come clearly blamed Ben for Widmore's loss of the Island. But I find it hard to believe that Widmore was on the Island up until just before the Purge. I also don't know how Ben could hide the Island from Widmore all this time if Widmore was so connected to the Island.

Which reminds me I loved the line about an old man knowing more about the Island than me.

memphish said...

Why didn't Widmore warn Desmond Ben Linus wants to kill Penny?

memphish said...

So if Ellie is Mrs. Hawking and Daniel is her son I bet that's how Mrs. Hawking knows back in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" that Desmond has to go to the Island and push the button and how important it is.

maven said...

I think we need a time line laid out in writing so we can place people in different years and what their status was! This is very confusing.

So Widmore and Hawking are original Others? Because of all the connections, I wouldn't be surprised if those two are Daniel's parents. It might explain why he has funded Daniel's research for 10 years.How old is Daniel supposed to be? Isn't Charlotte around his age, too? And how did young Widmore acquire all his wealth and prestige.

memphish said...

Do we think Jughead will ever show back up? I sure hope not. If it is in the Swan what happened to it when it imploded. But it can't be in the Swan can it since it was out in the open and the Swan is in the jungle.

maven said...

Memphish: We know "something" was behind a concrete wall in the Swan. And Daniel did mention burying it in concrete.

memphish said...

But look at the areas Maven. They are very different, and wouldn't an implosion of a bomb lead to some very bad radiation effects?

maven said...

I know, I know...an H-Bomb is more than a purpling of the sky. It is tough to gauge how far they are from the Swan. And Jughead must weigh a lot. Just a thought.

2costa said...

i think that godspeed and Ben's mother had some secret plan. She made sure that he was named Ben because of the biblical significance of Ben being the son of Jacob.

i think that the h-bomb was a very important part of this episode. I was wondering why the losties seem to be time jumping within a range of say 1950-2007. I think the h-bomb is the key. Last weeks episode showed that the frozen donkey wheel predated the dharma initiative, and probably from some more ancient civilization. I think the radiation from the h-bomb coupled with the negatively charged exotic matter in the orchid together make the magic time jumps happen.

Daniel suggested to bury the h-bomb in concrete in order to contain the radiation. I think the SWAN IS WHERE THE H-BOMB WAS FINALLY ENTOMBED. Which explains the thick concrete and heavy blast doors in the swan. I still contend that the swan was anchoring the island. The 108 clock was probably really letting off little amounts of radiation at one time. Ben's plan all along was to destroy the swan and the orchid so together the island gets thrown around in time. In the same way that both widmore and ben seem to both use desmond for their own means, they both use faraday for their own means.

A couple more observations Locke was compelled to not kill widmore when he had the shot because that would undue his chance to change things, or the island wouldn't let him. No future Widmore off island, then there would be no dharma initiative on the island, no hatches. The terminator like paradox here is that Locke going back into the past on the island is what set the events in to motion that would later allow Locke to travel in time. Much like dude from the future being john conners dad and the other paradox of terminator 2 that the terminators hand left in the past became the basis for skynet. Here in lies a lot of importance of the rules. Widmore and Ben can't mess around too much with the timeline because they have to let dharma and Desmond and Ben do their thing in order to be in the time travel game in the first place.

We have speculated that in order to be the leader of the others one has to kill their own father like Locke and Ben, well knowing that they were expecting Locke to come be their leader, having cooper on tap for john to kill him makes much more sense. Also Richard being at Locke's birth makes more sense now, he wasn't Locke's dad, he was simply checking out if the Locke he had seen two years earlier on the island was telling the truth. Similarly Richard leaving Locke because he picked the compass not the knife makes a lot of sense, he knew he had to leave him behind because they needed a Locke with specific life experiences to be on the island at certain times, the compass just validated that

2costa said...

to finish my previous thought i think they are only jumping in time on the island within the range of when the breach in the h-bomb on the island say like 1954 to the present, otherwise why aren't they jumping form the present all the way back 1000 yrs?

2costa said...

i tend to think that the priest that saved Desmond from the gutter that was pictured with hawking on his desk is Daniel's father

memphish said...

Why do people keep connecting DI with Widmore? It was funded by Hanso.

memphish said...

So Widmore funded Faraday's time travel research in the hopes of traveling back to the Island to change something? Did he also experiment on his mother which is how she knows about the course correcting?

2costa said...

hanso and widmore funded the DI, thats canon, i believe. I would make total sense that widmore left the island, my only question is did he turn the donkey wheel or leave by other means, then sent back dharma to harness all the forces of the island and teamed up with alvar hanso who's grandpa was on the island. I can't really see young piss and vinegar widmore being leader of the others and if so not for very long. When widmore said to ben" boy i know who you are and everything you have you took from me" he meant by destroying the dharma initiative Ben hijacked the island from him

2costa said...

hawkins was exposed to mad radiation from the h-bomb and had encountered time travelers form the future, i think after she left the island if ella is indeed eloise hawkings, she devoted herself to physics and time travel. I don't think course correction is totally real yet i think Hawkings and denial have a plan about changing things and they don't want the satellite small time players changing stuff that will set them back or change everything entirely.

I now see that the primary purpose of the freighter and why Ben and Widmore both let these events go down unchanged was to get Faraday to the island. No time shifting faraday and Locke and Hawkings and Widmore may never leave the island or believe in time travel.

I also have a suspicion that Juliet knows whats going on because Ben prepped her for her time shifting role, that's why she knew they weren't getting off the island last season. Who's to say what Daniel was really doing in the tempest last season as well

2costa said...

no faraday on the island and desmond dies of nosebleed and never connects with penny. Perhaps they can't even access the island(no coordinates) so the donkey wheel never gets turned. Which in turn changes everything because no locke going back to talk to richard. So the answer is Widmore had to fund faraday and the freighter in order to make ben turn the wheel which in turn changes the course of young widmore young hawkings and richard's lives. So really widmore had no choice to do everything he's done up until the secondary protocol. Its a paradox.

I have a feeling that Ben was injected into the island timeline by godspeed and Ben's mom in order to change things

bigdog said...

is richard the only one that doesnt age? and what would have happened that richard gave up being the leader? did jacob tell him that. most leaders would not like to be demoted.


why is charlotte the only one experiencing any time travel problems. and miles has quickly become my favorite FF, that is until they bring back lapidus.

i still dont like how Juliet is looking at sawyer.

2costa said...

That is s why Ben and Widmore can't harm each other, they know they might makes themselves cease to exist by the smallest change. For instance if Ben had had widmore killed in 2000, then chuck never sends the freighter, as i mentioned earlier, no frieghter no time flashes.If the time jumping never starts, who knows if Ben ever comes to he island. Its sort of like the grandfather paradox that's why they can harm each others children because that wont effect the timeline. I think that what we see of Ben and Widmore in the present on the show is post paradox. When Ben said that charles changed the rules it implied that Ben would now try to change things that might have a bigger impact on the timeline and do away with course correction mentality

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

Okay, gonna get back to the comments later, but thought I'd chime in:

Anyone else think that Ellie, when we first meet her in the jungle, looks a bit familiar to us, too? High-waisted pants, tank top, carrying a rifle... wrong accent, but my first thought was Rousseau.

The 1950's Others stole the uniforms of the US military guys. They continue to wear them after they've killed the entire regiment. They're disguised even when no one's looking. Same is true of modern Others, with the rags and costume bears. From whom are they constantly hiding?

Was Widmore on the Island when young Ben arrived? Did he escape the Purge? When, how, and why did he leave?

Loved the Locke Supreme moments: not firing on one of "his people" (which goes a long way to prove Faraday right about things not changing in the past), Widmore being incredulous about some old man knowing the Island better than him (and one beat later, there's Locke looking down at the encampment), and Locke restraining himself upon learning that he's face to face with young Widmore.

And yes, Desmond was friggin' fashion plate hot this episode; I don't mind saying it.

2costa said...

i think Richard isn't human or mortal in the regualr sense of the word. He seems to always have a human mortal leader that jacob seems to pick. Richard seems to be the constant number 2 to whoever the island or jacob deems the leader. I think in 1954 we were not shown richard's mortal leader. Widmore seems more like an young brash upstart in '54

I also like the Shineing reference to richard "has always been here" like jack and his predecessors in the overlook hotel have always been there. Perhaps Richard was born on the island or something like that that puts him outside of reality as we know it and he needs a regular off island mortal to be his leader for "the rules"

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

That should be costume beards, not bears. Although they have bears on the Island, too, don't they? ;)

memphish said...

Kyle, the Others had not only taken the US Army uniforms and weapons, but had taken over their camp. I think they're trying to fool other Army groups from coming to the Island.

I even wonder if Widmore will move the Island to prevent the Army from finding them.

2Costa -- You need to show me where Widmore funded DI before I'm buying it.

Sayid'sgirl said...

maven
I think the bomb was under the Swan too.
memphish
They may have moved it to the jungle to keep it far away from the population. Don't know.
Also Desmond was exposed to a huge amount of radiation. He was under the Swan with the bomb (if it is there)basically at ground zero. Which I think is what caused he to time travel in the first place. Maybe the fact that it imploded not exploded has something to do with it not affecting the the rest of the island.

I haven't been connecting Widmore with the DI. I did think in The Lie that the military people were DI though.
You called that one good job.

memphish said...

2Costa and people on other boards are connecting DI and Widmore. I'm just trying to clarify that I don't think that connection has been firmly established. People have speculated that Widmore is upset about the Purge of DI. Widmore certainly knows about the Purge which is how/why Daniel and Charlotte went to the Tempest last season, but it still doesn't show that Widmore funded the DI.

I suppose they could have moved the bomb, but I still worry that the implosion would have had a much worse effect than it did. I guess the magnetism cancelled the radiation. :-) I could live with that.

I do wonder though if the Others on Island with the bomb are time specials like Desmond. Desmond's time travel is special because of his proximity to the Swan when he turned the failsafe. It could be that Widmore and Ellie and any other Others of this 1954 time period also engage in consciousness time travel or exist outside the rules because of their high radiation exposure. Daniel first asks about magnetism and radiation exposure back in The Constant.

Capcom said...

Fascinating theories everyone! :-D

I know, last night when Dez said Baby Humie's name I went, "Awwwww...EW!". Poor kid.

Maven, Lostpedia has updated some of this season's events on their timeline: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline:Post-moving

Sayid'sgirl said...

Oh ok. Thanks for the clarification memphish. I don't thimk Widmore funded the DI either. But you're right he did know about it. Hanso and Paik seem to be involved in the DI someway. And Widmore has knowledge of it but, I'm not sure what his involvement might be.
I'm not sure of the specifics of the bomb, but I'm going to continue to think it's at the Swan. At least until I'm proven wrong. ;)

Sayid'sgirl said...

So did Widmore know about time travel in the 50's when he was on the island or did that come later?
Did he discover it when he bought the Black Rock journal? Is that why he funded Daniels research? Was Daniel already doing research or did Widmore commission it?

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

Or does Widmore remember his past encounter with Faraday, like Desmond?

Erich said...

Quick thoughts:

I agree that Jughead is/was under The Swan and Ellie is Dan's mother. I like the idea that Widmore is his father, but we'll see.

Knowing that Widmore used to be an Other adds credence to the theory that he was the last one to move the island before Ben. Hence why he's been so desperate to find it again. Maybe the whole "kill everyone on the island" was an extension of his Other-ly duty to protect the island from invaders. Maybe it was just revenge.

I'm really loving the new time jumping narrative this season. It's a great way to answer past and future questions quickly, and it's a nice break from the flashback/forward setups.

Capcom said...

In case anyone is interested on the effects of an H-bomb test in the Pacific, here's a few details from a PBS special (if not interested, skip, heheh):


"On March 1, 1954 the United States tested an H-bomb design on Bikini Atoll that unexpectedly turned out to be the largest U.S. nuclear test ever exploded..."Bravo" yielded 15 megatons -- making it more than a thousand times bigger than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

The blast gouged a crater about a mile wide in the reef. Within seconds the fireball was nearly three miles in diameter. The illumination from the blast was visible for almost one minute on Rongerik, an island 135 miles east of the burst. It trapped personnel in experiment bunkers...the air started getting filled with this gray stuff, which...was somewhat radioactive coral. An hour-and-a-half later a similar gritty, snow-like substance began raining down on a Japanese fishing vessel called the Lucky Dragon that was about 80 miles east of Bikini."


If TPTB are going to use Jughead in the Swan containment section, Jughead would have to be a pretty small device, but that's do-able.

Capcom said...

Lostpedia's Pre-crash timeline is very helpful already as well: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline:Pre-crash

I'm sure as the season becomes clearer they'll layout more details.

blueheron13 said...

I think the bomb is buried somewhere on the island, but not at the Swan. The Swan appears to be totally destroyed and I don't think we've seen the last of that bomb. I don't believe something that dangerous would be introduced into the plot for just one episode.

As for Widmore and the DI, were there some Widmore products in the pallet drops? I can't recall.

Amused2bHere said...

Great musings, everyone.

Loved the reveal for baby humie's name...aw, Charlie! Nice touch.

Dan loves Charlotte...she doesn't deserve him!

I didn't get that the blond soldier garding Dan might be Ms. Hawkings, or that Dan's mom's name is Eloise, but I did see in the pop ups that Ms Hawkings' name is Eloise, and it made me think of the rat he used....oh wow.

Chas Widmore must have been off Island for assignment when Ben's friends killed the DI. Maybe that's why CW is so upset at Ben--because Ben killed everyone and kept CW from being able to return to the Island. just a thought...

I agree, Memphish...why didn't CW at least tell Des that Ben was out to kill Penny? It's obvious that CW doesn't want to kill Des, as he's the one keeping Penny safe right now. He must assume that Des knows Ben, or at least has met him. Darn these "need to know" attitudes!

Off to watch again!

maven said...

Great points everyone. Thanks for the Lostpedia time line link, Capcom. I tried to keep a time line for TLE, and it's tough!

I don't know if Widmore funded DI. If he is an original Other in 1954, I don't think he would help the DI set up shop on his precious island. I mean they drove off the Army in 1954-ish, and his group with Richard are probably the Hostiles from the DI perspective. I think he left when the island, probably during the "incident", maybe around 1984 and has been trying for 20 years to find it and get back. The question is when and how did Widmore become the power-broker.

And why does Widmore still know exactly where Hawkings is? If they are Daniel's parents, they might still be keeping tabs on each other.

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

2costa's Widmore/DHARMA fascination comes from Bad Twin, where the Hanso HQ is located in the Widmore Building.

But TPTB have said that we can throw out almost everything from Bad Twin because they had nothing to do with almost any of it.

There's no 'there' there.

maven said...

Weren't those Army tents the same ones they Other's used to make camp on their way to the Temple...when Ben took Locke to meet Jacob.

Sayid'sgirl said...

blueheron13
I think Sun's pregnancy test was a Widmore product but it came from the plane.

amused said
I didn't get that the blond soldier garding Dan might be Ms. Hawkings, or that Dan's mom's name is Eloise, but I did see in the pop ups that Ms Hawkings' name is Eloise, and it made me think of the rat he used....oh wow.
I think because Ms. Hawkings is involved with time travel and Daniel has sent Desmond to find his mother people are assuming his mother is Ms. Hawking. I'm not sure if I agree with that. But I guess it could be. Also Dan named his rat Eloise and people are assuming he named the rat after his mother. And the girl on the island is Ellie. Alot of coincidences which could point to Ms. Hawking being Dan's mom.
But I don't believe in any way that Widmore is Dan's father,sorry.

Sayid'sgirl said...

maven said:
I don't know if Widmore funded DI. If he is an original Other in 1954, I don't think he would help the DI set up shop on his precious island. I mean they drove off the Army in 1954-ish, and his group with Richard are probably the Hostiles from the DI perspective. I think he left when the island, probably during the "incident", maybe around 1984 and has been trying for 20 years to find it and get back.
I agree I don't think he'd help the DI. And you're probably right he and Richard are probably the hostiles to the DI.
Weren't those Army tents the same ones they Other's used to make camp on their way to the Temple...when Ben took Locke to meet Jacob.
I never thought of that but they probably are. If they would stand up that long.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Here's a article about H-bombs I got from DarkUFO's site.
I thought it was pretty cool.
H-bomb

bigdog said...

my math may be a little off but widmore looked young in 54. maybe in his 20's. makes him 70ish in 04. if he was looking for the island for 20 years wouldnt that mean penny was born on the island?

maven said...

Sayid'sgirl: Thanks for the link to Popular Mechanics. Those are always interesting articles. What I found most interesting was at the end: a leaking H-bomb might affect women's pregnancies.

Ellen said...

Memphish - I did a little looking around and if you go toLostPedia and scroll a little over halfway down the page, under the section "Looking Back", there is an interview with Darlton about the canonicity (is that a word?LOL) of the The Lost Experience. They say all the background info we gleaned about the island and the DI are considered canon, so, I am still of the opinion that DI was funded by Hanso, Widmore and Paik. They were business partners.
xxoo

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ellen said...

That's not to say that Charles Widmore was the one who funded it, it was Widmore Industries. I would guess that perhaps his father was CEO in 1954?
xxoo

Capcom said...

I found that last paragraph kind of funny when I read it. If there was enough radiation leaking out onto the island to cause the things mentioned, and other serious maladies, you'd think that the Others would be aware of that factor (especially since they do have G-counters) so that Juliet would know to include that as a variable in her research of the pregnancy complications. It would be very negligent of her not to wonder and ask about the environmental situations on the island. You could also assume that it would affect a fetus that came to the island as well. Perhaps not Aaron since he was almost full term. But if Ji Yeon was concieved off island, Juliet implied that the baby would have a chance to live. Just sayin'.

Of course, TPTB can write anything they like. :-)

memphish said...

I'm sorry to be so picky about this, but I still think the link between Widmore and the DI is tenuous.

I did find this on Lostpedia:

The Widmore Corporation is mentioned on Thomas Werner Mittelwerk's answer phone on the Hanso phone line alongside Paik Heavy Industries. He addresses them as colleagues currently involved in active projects with the Foundation. Similarly, Peter Thompson says that anyone making threats against his colleagues or representatives of the Widmore Corporation will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

It was later established that Rachel Blake worked for the Widmore Corporation before quitting her job and receiving a healthy severance pay, which she used to finance her investigations in Europe against the Hanso Foundation. Rachel speaks very little about her old job, though does boast that the computer she used, a Hillis Teraflop in the basement of the Widmore Corporation building, was "badass".


There are also links per Bad Twin, but I don't think anything in Bad Twin can be counted as canon.

In conclusion, there is some link in a post-2004 world between the corporations according to The Lost Experience. But there has been nothing so far to suggest that Widmore funded the original DI of the DeGroots and Alvar Hanso. No Widmore branded products were in DI's possession unless Sun's pregnancy test was from a hatch and no claims of sponsorship in orientation videos or otherwise.

It's clear that Widmore knows a lot about DI because he had put that secondary protocol thing on the freighter, but that does not prove he funded the DI.

Again, sorry to be so persnickety, but the lawyer and logician in me can't stand making the leap from fact A to conclusion D without steps B and C in between. And I'm not a fan of the giant corporations conspiracy.

memphish said...

Another interesting thing I saw while rooting around on Lostpedia is that Jack's estimation about the age of Adam and Eve put them close to the date we just saw in Jughead, namely the mid-50s.

Sayid'sgirl said...

capcom
I'm absolutely no expert at these things. But don't they build schools and such overtop of toxic waste and no body knows about it until people start getting sick? If it's leaking into the ground water would a geiger pick that up?
memphish I'm with you on the Widmore thing. And I think the pregnancy test was from the plane.
I've been thinking about Adam and Eve with this time traveling wondering who they might be.

Capcom said...

I just saw that about A & E too Memphish!

About the DI and Wid, I'm OK in my head just thinking of it as Hanso founding the org, and hiring Widmore and Paik industries to help him "furnish" it with equipment, supplies, consumables, etc. So that their two companies had a major part in the development of Hanso's DI, possibly even owning parts of it via stock holdings, etc. But...now we know that Wid had more than just money in it. Hmmmm.

Sayid'sgirl said...

bigdog
It would depended on when Widmore left the island whether Penny was born on it or not. We're not sure when he left.

Kyle/thebookpolice said...

No! Widmore has not been shown to have anything to do with DHARMA. He's an Other, yes. But that's not DHARMA.

And Kate made a point of saying that the pregnancy test came from the plane.

Ellen said...

You could be right, Memphish, it's been too long for me to remember the exact details that led me to believe that Widmore Ind., Hanso Foundation and Paik Heavy Industries were connected through the DI. I guess I'll just remain neutral until we find out for sure...:)

maven said...

I, too, don't think Widmore would personally be involved in funding the DI. They were the ones that encroached on THEIR island (the group that Saywer/Locke/Juliet run into). Those original Others were there before the Army came and they didn't like it one bit that the Army was there. Same for the DI...the DI considered them Hostiles. The only reason I would see that Widmore would help fund DI was that their research might get him back to the island. I can see him funding Dan's research as a way to get back, too.

Capcom said...

They sure do Sayidsgirl. The problem is, the first guys with the meters are usually the ones who dumped it there and don't tell anyone about it so they can get rid of the land. Then after the land is sold and developed and people start getting sick, then the authories check into it and do the, "A-ha!".

Also correct, anything with radiation in it, even water, would register on the meter. Strongly or weakly.

I'm just thinking that if they knew about the bomb/radiation/etc, the Others would have to pretty stupid not to tell Juliet about that and take it into account for the pregancy problems. But, that's not saying that they weren't that stupid. :o)

Capcom said...

It came from the plane but it was a Widmore Labs box, right?

minnesotawriter said...

Wow, so many old faces (usernames...?). Nice to have LOST back.

Sayid'sgirl said...

capcom
Yes it was a Widmore product.
About the bomb. I guess what I'm getting at is it possible they buried it and it started leaking and they don't realize it. But I guess you're right you would think that would be the first thing they would think about is the buried bomb.

blueheron13 said...

On the possible Widmore/DI connection, here is what we know for sure:

- The Widmore pregnancy test came from Sawyer's stash, which was presumably salvaged from the plane.

- In "DOC", was saw Mr. Paik involved in a conversation (in Korean) about a business deal with the Hanso Foundation.

- In last year's finale, Charles Widmore admitted to knowing Mr. Paik.

So it's possible that Widmore, Paik, and the Hanso Foundation are all tied together, but it's still just speculation. And if even if these entities have had dealings in the past, it sheds no light on Widmore's exact relationship, if any, with the DI.


On another note, does anyone have a good theory on who else (besides Desmond) has been snooping around Faraday's old lab (if we can trust what the janitor says)?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Ben or Ms. Hawking maybe.
I don't know, but that's a good question.

Sayid'sgirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ellen said...

blueheron13 - were you around during The Lost Experience? If so, do you remember any of the things we found out about the history/background of the Dharma Initiative?
I guess I'll just have to ask the writers straight up to get an answer that we all can put our teeth into! I'll go now...:)

blueheron13 said...

Ellen--I lurked here throughout TLE, but I tend to discount anything we don't actually see on the show. I think Lostpedia has quite a bit about the DI's history as told through TLE. I can't remember it too well, though.

Capcom said...

Probably Teresa's lawyers were snooping around Dan's lab. j/k :o)

Ellen, Lostpedia used to have all the step by step info we learned during TLE, I'm sure that they still probably have it. You know, like videos and the transcripts, data from the freaky webpages that we had to explore, etc.

2costa said...

ki guess theres not concrete evidence that widmore helped fund the Di. I think i surmised that from not only bad twin,but also the fact that widmore, paik, and hanso were all working together in TLE on the helgas antonius. Henry Gayle's ballon also was marked with widmore on the side. It was also partly a logical jump i made that Ben didn't truly become leader of the others until the purge. I just had the sense that widmore found the island again after he made his fourtane and went back to use science to harness his powers, then lost the island when ben did the purge, that would explain why miles said it took him 20 widmore 20 years to find the island again, because the purge was twenty years earlier. I have to think widmore was already gone form the island before Ben's ascendancy, for one because he had to leave and conceive penny and make his fortane. Considering young widmore was already openly questioning richards authority I can't see him being an other for very long...

Capcom said...

Good thoughts 2costa, I agree. :-)

Although, there's always the possiblity that Widmore was a trust-fund baby and inherited his wealth after he left the island. But I'm not married to that thought.

maven said...

One thing I was wondering...Richard mentions a few times about how the leadership role is assumed...that there are certain protocols to follow. Who set those rules? In 1954, when Richard tells Locke this, is Jacob the leader then? Is Richard always second-in-command?

maven said...

Well, this explain where Dennis has been (From his Fringe blog): "As you may or may not know, I live in Lexington, KY, which was hit hard by an ice storm. Almost 500,000 people here are without power, including myself, so needless to say, I have been without internet or TV since Tuesday. This of course means I haven't even seen this week episode of Fringe yet (or Lost!) ;("

Capcom said...

Oh no, poor Dennis!

Good questions Maven. I guess either it's Jacob who is the only one older than Richard if he's from the Black Rock, or someone from even farther back maybe? King 4-Toes? Zeus? :o)

Sayid'sgirl said...

I was going to mention Dennis was in Kentucky and he might not have power last night when the post was late then Melissa put the post up and I forgot about it. I thought he might have gotten hit with all that ice. There's people in south east Ohio with out power still too. But not that many. I thinks it's about 20 to 30 thousand.
Glad he's safe and warm.

2costa said...

i think that richard is like a custodian of the island, but needs a regular mortal to at least be the figure head leader. So yes i think he is always second or third in command if our counting jacob.

i think "richard has always been here" is definetly a nod to the shining, Makes me think of the end of the movie where jack's character is dressed in a tux partying with grady and all the other misfits from the overlook hotel's history.

first i thought richard was a human manifestation of the black smoke and that's how he's always been there and doesn't age and thus needs a human to be the leader. it's definetly possible we have seen the smoke take physical human form. the only thing that poo poo's that idea i s how richard has been leaving the island like in not in portland or at lockes birth. I guess the question is how corporeal was christain when jack saw him in the hospital after the island

Darkaardvark said...

For those saying that the Swan was surrounding Jughead, what exactly does that imply about the implosion of the hatch? Surely that would have triggered something if that's where the bomb was, whether it be a full on explosion or just radiation leakage.

2costa said...

another reason i think widmore is involved with dharma is his buddha polar bear painting in his office

2costa said...

interesting that widmore knew desmond had a messae to relay to dan's mum

Black Swan said...

Just to put another thought into the Widmore/dharma thing.. I think that Widmore, who obviously started out as an Other, switched sides to Dharma just as Ben, who started out Dharma with his dad, switched sides to the Others. I'm not sure of the timing on Widmore for this, other than it being before the purge.

It was interesting to see that Richard and the rest of the Others seem to have been getting rid of any intruders who appear to be a threat to the island with no hesitation and then confiscating their stuff for who-knows how long. I love Richard's subtle ways and calmly given threats. I was saying to someone today that he'd make a great 8th grade teacher... LOL!

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