Ben begrudgingly begins to introduce Locke to the secrets of the island, beginning with the mysterious Jacob. What is compelling Ben to reveal his secrets to Locke? Who will Jacob be? How will Locke responde? What will we learn about the history of the Dharma initiative? With questions like these, we can't help but get some cool answers!
Wednesday, May 09, 2007
THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN - SEASON 3, EPISODE 20
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 432 Newer› Newest»I will admit, they did a good job of making Ben look younger, without resorting to any flashback wigs of doom.
yeah dark. probably us. hahaha.
no one's being snotty. we just don't want to give up what we believe are viable theories, based on what's been handed to us so far. no big.
good thought on the window dark. what if when the rest of the others knew where they were going, a few went (as the normally do when ben goes there) and THEY were manipulating all that stuff???
i guess TPTB said everything could be explained..maybe just not in the way we had hoped. fair enough? =]
i actually think all your theories sound good [and generally better than anything i've come up with] even purgatory and time-issues and all that. i'm certainly not going to disagree w/anything anymore after seeing ghostly jacob banging stuff around lol. that was game changing for me, if only to the extent that i see how far they're willing to go on this show.
My biggest question about Alpert, besides how does he stay so young, is what's his deal? I mean, the "hostiles" appear to be relatively low-tech, so how does he make the transition from that to science-guy? And why does he let Ben become leader, when he's already the leader, and obviously has some serious senority?
"Does anyone else think the glass on the house's window broke inward?"
Yes, definitely.
I wish they'd add a quote function to the blogger comments.
I like debating with people who stand up for themselves better than people who give up too easily.
So...Ben ages reasonably normally on the island, but Alpert doesn't. Is it simply an actor/makeup thing, an Alpert vs. Ben thing, or a Hostiles vs. Dharma thing?
before we actuall saw that flash of jacob, i was liking the idea that maybe ben was actually crazy .. remeniscent of hurley's "dave" .
we shall see. only a few episodes left in this season.
and what the bloody hell will we do until NEXT SEASON????? ugh!!!!
So the promo definitely shows Danielle blowing something up... I'm very excited!
Hey! Lookit that! I was pretty close.
I haven't read all the comments, but I'll say this much: I came up with my theory maybe three days or a week before the ABC press release for this episode came out. At that point, it was pretty apparent that I was wrong. I have to be honest: I forgot that I had been proven wrong by the casting announcement when I posted my theory last week. Whoops!
Nevertheless, I swear to you that I came up with the heart of the theory before any mention of Roger Linus hit the spoiler "wire."
Now, to catch up! What an episode. My mind is boggled. Did we see a split second glimpse of Jacob?
Locke obviously heard Jacob, but rewatching it, it appears that he may have SEEN him as well. Right after Jacob appears, Locke gets a very wide-eyed look, and then runs out the door.
anyone explain ben's mom?
i'm sticking with smokey. and again, smokey decides if it's your turn (sorta').
something like that. ugh....medicine kicking in...
And that voice at the end, I think it's either Danielle or Naomi.
I don't think the Alpert thing is an actor/makeup thing, there's just no way they could be that grossly negligent! I guess it's remotely feasible that Alpert is actually older than Ben (in a normal fashion), but it just doesn't seem right.
That said, we know Alpert is an original hostile, but we don't know who else could be.
Colleen? Klugh? Tom?
Not Mikhail (unless he lied about the Russian army).
Not Juliette.
This makes me wonder more about the lady that came to judge Juliette way back in that episode. Where does she fit in? Is she a "hostile?"
I agree, sara - I think it would have been actually kind of interesting if Ben was just a complete whackjob. What happened was better, but Norman Bates Ben would have been pretty cool.
Erich said: "Good job, TPTB for not actually showing him die...you know what that will do to us." Ya got that right! Arg!
Yeah Memphish, where did these Hostiles come from? They certainly didn't look and speak like primitive natives! Alpert spoke as if he graduated from Jungle University, he didn't sound like a native!
i have the exact same question, melissa. why isn't he being more vocal about the island's ability or their mission? i mean, he was there 30 some-odd years ago. he knows more than anyone. something must have happened after ben killed his dad. hopefully it'll be explained.
as far as richard becoming a science guy, maybe he already was..you never know what was happening on the hostile's side..or maybe he just adapted the best he could once he got in dharma's area and started using their stations or something. as for his aging, it might not be a big difference in ben's and richard's ages, but the point is ben aged and richard did not. there HAD to be a reason for that.
Definitely smokey, chucklez. What confuses me is that her body wasn't on the island. I thought Smokey needed the body for humans. And the Hostiles think so as well, no? "Did she die on the island?"
Didn't Mikhail claim that he arrived before the purge? Is it possible that he was telling the truth?
well, smokey has done it before..no reason to think it didn't morph into his mother. maybe smokey sensed he was special and wanted him to venture out and meet the hostiles?
no. smokey has appeared as dave, the horse, etc. depending on what has that particular person "perplexed", etc.
So here's my overall theory of WTF is going on. The Hostiles, I don't know where they come from, but they are looking for a priest. Alpert thinks Ben is that guy because of his ability to see his dead mother. (What a letdown that preview shot was.) But in reality it's only Ben's guilt that was producing that, not the Island, after all she appeared both inside and outside the fence.
But the Purge occurs and they think Ben is the man and Ben wants them to think he is the man and he finds "Jacob" who is entirely creation of Ben's. But Ben was taught by Dharma (what a waste of Samantha Mathis) to use telekenesis and all those other weird Dharma things we've seen in the Orientation videos.
Total aside--Marvin's arm was post-incident.
So Ben strings everyone along, but because of the chemicals they've used to wipe out the Dharma people, no one who conceives on the Island can successfully procreate. (I don't understand the sperm thing and I'm ignoring it.) So he starts to recruit new people including Juliet who also has a special telekinesis power, only hers wasn't trained, it's inate, so now she's a threat to Ben.
And then Flight 815 with the true Messiah, Locke, arrives and Ben has to keep it from his "people" thus what we saw tonight.
This is disjointed and typed once and not reviewed, so go at it. I will too.
Tim: "That said, we know Alpert is an original hostile, but we don't know who else could be."
I thought the point of the episode is that EVERYONE was, except for maybe a few others like Ben. All the Dharma folks were killed in the purge. Likely betrayed by Ben, who turned off the fence for them.
TPTB confirmed after Enter 77 that everything Mikhail said was true except for the Dharma Initiative part.
Topic: If Dharma is gone and dead, and has been taken over by the hostiles, from where cometh the food drops?
Melissa - good question about Mikhail. Maybe the "hostiles" were recruiting from outside already?
Maybe none of them were native to the island, either, despite the Dharma beliefs.
There were a lot of other "hostiles" with Alpert though, surely some of them still make up the group of "others."
Alpert had on some pretty cool threads there, when Li'l Ben met him in the jungle. Not the typical hippie-muslin crap, he was all rock-starred out with some nice embroidery, etc. I know, I notice weird things.
I wondered that, too, dark - about her body being on the island.
If the hostiles don't age, that adds another question of why they'd want Ben to be their leader. He's younger than some of them, he's the outsider, and he ages!
ooooohhhh........memphish said "sperm"!!
hahaha.....j/k
Also, what the hell do the Hostiles have to make everybody brain hemorrhage and die ON THE SPOT without moving instantly. Some sort of a gas, apparently.
But even the tennis doubles were still in their proper position. That's just *creepy*.
okay..........going to bed for real.
talk to everyone later.
been good debating and simply discussing, conversing. later peeps.
tim
You're right there is a man sitting in the chair. I just went back over that scene frame by frame. I can't tell who it is. You're going to hate me but it kind of looks like Richard except older. I been thinking he might be Jacob but I don't want to be laughed at. If he isn't I think he is going to play an important role.
memphish - I like the idea that the gas is what caused the baby issues on the island.
dark: it seems to be an advanced nerve agent sorta. actually, it appears the writers have it as a hybrid.....
a choking agent, mustard gas and nerv agent. if that's intentional, yikes. if not, they need a military advisor. hahaha.
Oh, dude. Sweeeeet. One frame from the promo: Sayid and two others standing in a row with guns.
Take a guess.
BERNARD AND ROSE!!!!
what???? get outta here!! are you serious????
where's ana lucia?? hahahaha
Okay, I'd love stay and talk all night, but I have got to get to sleep.
Memphish - let's talk books tomorrow :)
Good night!
DAA, that is awesome! TPTB said they had a key role for Bernard and Rose. I cannot wait for next week. I can't believe we only have 3 hours left until Feb. 2008!
goodnight. email me people, if you have anything you think i'd want to read.
chucklez3_2000@yahoo.com or buttmonkey73@yahoo.com.
later.
DArkUFO has some caps of Jacob!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yep, that definitely confirms what they said about B&R. And to clarify, Bernard had a rifle, and was aiming it, Rose just appears to have a hand on her head, no gun, and Sayid I can't tell. But it's awesome.
Night, all.
"My people are coming" - Rousseau.
Key line: Ben to Richard, "You remember birthdays, don't you?"
Did Ben's girlfriend die in childbirth too? Did Ben do the up-knocking in some unseen section of his youth?
When did the Purge happen? Do we know? Does it jive with Kelvin's arrival?
I was waiting for a John the Baptist/Jesus parallel. And wouldn't you know it, Ben came upon Richard at a stream, and recognized his potential.
Jacob is not physically on the Island. But he is mentally or psychically trapped there.
and i wsa pretty sure that the voice at the end was karl
which would make sense, cause he went back after going with sawyer and kate .
nice catch, dark! for the record, I think sounds like Karl who says that his people are coming now at the very end of the promo
okay, really going now!
Where did the LOSTies get weapons? They've been losing there's hand over fist. It looked to me in the preview that they were having to resort to Danielle traps. Why don't they just bug out to Othersville?
Jacob looks creepy in the caps, and of course, he's got long hair. He kind of looks like Pickett with longer hair.
Q: What was that grey junk in a thick trail on the way to Jacob's cabin???!1
Capcom, I was wondering where you were.
I thought the same thing about Pickett. Maybe Jacob is the most recently killed person on the Island and so now he'll be Locke. Ooh, I don't like that idea.
If it's Christian Shephard I will be ticked. I mean it.
So, Mikhail... if he isn't really a part of DHARMA, but came pre-puge, how do you explain the whole "You said you would not cross this line" thing?
I'm thinking, they killed almost everyone EXCEPT Ben and Mikhail. I think they kept him alive and promised to pretty much leave him alone in return for his knowledge of how to operate The Flame.
What I'm wondering now though is, where does Kelvin fit into this? Maybe they left him alive to keep pressing the button?
Since Dr. Candle/Mark Wickmund is obviously DHARMA, I'm thinking maybe The Incident is NOT The Purge, since it can be assumed that he was killed in the purge, as were supposedly all other DHARMA members. And as we just saw, there definitely WAS an "incursion by the hostiles."
Also, what is The Sickness? Is this whole gassing thing what is keeping the mother's from carrying to full term?
As for the thick gray sandy stuff, I thought maybe it was a Smokey conduit. I'm not good with mechanical stuff though, so don't go by me.
LGLM, I think Candle was definitely one-armed when Ben and dad arrived.
Yeah Dark, the promo shows Sayid training Bernard how to shoot... that's what the beer-can-being-shot frame is.
Gray sand: gunpowder, corpse powder or Smokey taking a nap. My money's on napping Smokey.
Jacob's appearance in the cabin: astral projection?
He kinda looks like Kris Kristofferson.
If Ben can kill his dad and Locke can too, why can't Kate?
I know it's a dark picture but that actor looks familiar to me. Not familiar to Lost but familiar as I've seen him in something before. Ah well. We'll find out who he is sooner or later I guess.
Or Daniel von Bargen (who I could only remember because of his role in O Brother, Where Art Thou?)
The commenters on Sledgewebs pictures of Jacob have a point... close up, it looks like Locke with hair.
It reminds me of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. The first time the Dementors are surrounding Harry, he thinks it was his dad that summoned the Patronus that owned them all. Then, the second time around, he saw that it was himself. The whole Locke hearing Jacob say "Help me," and then saying "Help me" for the first time when he fell in the pit, doesn't sit well with me.
Jacob looks like Pickett in those shots too like in DarkUFO's. Not saying that it is though. I'll die if he is Randal Flagg.
I'll be disappointed if that grey powder is some kind of voodoo thing. :-(
So if it's TOQ, does that make Locke Luke Skywalker?
Hi - long time lurker here. Two theories for everyone:
could Jacob also be smokey?
maybe the death inducing gas is the reason for the Dharma stations being marked quarantined from the inside?
OH! I vote for Magnus Hanso, like someone says on Sledgeweb! I'm sure it's not, but that would be fun.
well, went screen by screen and saw Jacob... I don't know what to think
I could vote for that Jacob being TOQ because that does look like a LOST Wig of Doom.
The profile of Jacob also looks like the guy who recently played in the horrible ScFi version of 'Grendel'. He also plays the sherrif in USA's Dead Zone. I can't remember if he has that kind of "boxer's nose" that Jacob has here though.
Hi Kirsten! We're glad you're here. No theory is too lame as I often prove.
I think it's a very good question to ask about Smokey at this point. Why is it that Ben isn't concerned about Smokey at all on this little trek of his yet when the Others first bugged out Smokey appeared twice to Kate and Juliet? I wonder if Ben built Smokey?
I just had one of those brain freeze ideas. What if Jacob is Locke and he was saying Help Me to warn Locke about Ben. After all when Locke first says "Help me" to Ben, Ben thinks he means help Locke not Jacob said help me.
Time travel and my brain do not compute. I'm putting A Brief History of Time on my summer reading list. I'll be able to advise the book club accordingly once I get to it.
That just rang another bell. I was just reading in The Hero With a 1000 Faces how the hero often has a "belly of the whale" experience where he appears to be dead. I guess this could be Locke's. If so, then he should be entering even more trials and then meet some women.
Do you really think they could kill Locke? I guess they could string us along until Season 4 wondering at least, huh? It seems to me if you kill Locke, you'd lose your serious geek audience which has to comprise at least a good 1/3 to 1/2 of the 12 million of us who watch, right?
From Doc's column, my favorite outlandish theory was that the two words were "you're Jacob," and that Jacob was actually Locke as a child, with the same sort of precognitive powers that Walt appears to have been endowed with.
The cabin was very "Failure at the Cave."
Yeah Memphish, that's what I was getting at, the Jacob is Locke.
What's Failure at the Cave, TBP?
Ok we're underway here in AZ. I wish there were more people to talk to in this time zone as the epi airs. Oh well. Locke just beat the crap out of Patchy- good to see the old Locke again.
I'm looking at my screencap of jacob and he looks like Ben's father
TBP, "Failure in the Cave" as in The Empire Strikes Back? Do you have any ideas for Alpert's apparent non-aging TBP?
This is the one that to me looks exactly like Locke, from the round forhead to the scruffy chin.
Close-up of Jacob
The old Luke and Yoda in the Jungle bit.
memphish - Avatara, baby.
So lets say that Jacob is Locke. What does that mean? In what dimension is Jacob? Does killing Locke mean that Jacob no longer exists and that Ben is finally free of him? Why can't anyone but Ben talk to him? Why do the rest of the Others revere him like Juliet back in OOU? The healing thing, Locke, cancer, makes more sense with respect to Juliet and her sister. It doesn't explain to me why Ben would take Jack instead of Locke for his tumor problem though.
Yes TBP, that's the stuff I'm talking about because Joseph Campbell talked about it and so did Doc Arzt at The Tail Section.
Lucky,
I think Etan was arecruit, possibly even done by Alpert.
I also think Locke was answering the question the first time he spoke in the Pit. He wasn't asking Ben for help.
DAA,
Yes, The glass came inward frame by frame shows either something come through the window or the pice of glass fly inward toward Ben actually.
Capcom,
You are mistaking Native for Primative... To the Dharma initiative Native just means there before we were. They could still be Older Dharma operatives that went rouge. They are reffered to as Hostiles to make the New comers think they were their first.
So the Pearl station operatives were some serious Alchaholics.
The Voice at the end saying "My people they are coming right now!" is Alex. She has that same sorta nazely tone to her voice and no accent. Or at least not Danielles accent, nor Naomi's. It is definitely not Karls voice.
Rose and Bernard were there shooting at Dharma Beer cans, possibly training to shoot. Sawyers stash was raided and the spoils went around camp... including the guns. That's what I think anyway.
TBP, Ithink it looks like Kris Kristofferson as well. I can't put my finger on the name of the movie that makes me think of him, but he has long strangly Grey hair and looks alot like what Jacob did. Could it be as simple as misdirection. Ben throws himself against the wall, an other pops up into the chair Locke looks back to Ben and he slips away.
Ded, is it A Star is Born with Babs?
I'm telling you, people. Jacob is either
Kris Kristofferson
or
Daniel von Bargen.
dedjezter - Blade, as Whistler.
That's it for tonight, y'all. I should be back on tomorrow morning, CDT.
TBP,
I just had a total "Duh I'm an idiot Moment."
A star is born with bab(e)s?????????
I'm thinking, since Jack seems to have been formulating his own plan, maybe he's got Danielle working with him? He told her to get some dynamite, since he knew that she knew where it was, and that they'd probably need it.
LGLM, why would Danielle trust Jack? I think both of them are operating on their own.
Further, I think Jack knows nothing more than the little bit we heard Juliet reveal tonight, namely that Ben wants Juliet to locate the pregnant women because of her project. She was probably forced to tell him because he noticed Juliet and Sun returning to camp that Saturday morning.
I think Juliet is still playing both sides against the middle. (Of course I hate Juliet.) Her telling them to flip the tape was a bluff that payed off since Ben had already recorded his response. I'm sticking to my earlier prediction that this is Ben's plan so that the Others can kill LOSTies in self-defense.
As I see it now, Alpert, Tom et al are beginning to question Ben's "chosen-ness" which is why they don't stop Locke from beating up Patchy. The real Others, Alpert's group is looking for Locke to lead because of Ben's power erosion especially the tumor.
Well I'm finally off to bed... I have to wake up for work in about 5 hours! Great thoerizing so far. My friends barely wanted to talk about it after the episode... I'm glad I have diehard fans to talk to. Goodnight everyone!
memphish said...
Codysmom check out the Sledgeweb cap. I'd say it looks much more like Locke than A Coop.
Not A Coop, Ben's father, Roger Workman
Sorry Codysmom. I misunderstood. But boy I hope not. That guy was not fun to look at. He made Ben attractive. I would serve the little bug-eyed non-bastard right though wouldn't it?
That would be pretty weird if Ben was led to betray Dharma by visions of his Mom only to lead the Hostile courtesy of visions of his Dad.
any theories on why Alpert doesn't seem to have aged a day since Ben first met him in the jungle as a boy?
No one has any of those yet Brianne. Maybe the West Coasters will come up with something.
Ben is a Capricorn like a lot of us LoCos. Be sure to add him to the list Dennis. :)
Thank you thebookpolice! I couldn't think of his name...Kris Kristofferson
Memphish - too funny! Capricorns, the born leaders.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no!!!! Guess I spoke too soon. No freakin' way. If Locke is dead, the pigs are walkin'!
Yes Memphish, I really got the creeps when Tomand Richard just stood there when Ben asked them to pull Locke off of Patchy.
memphish said...
That would be pretty weird if Ben was led to betray Dharma by visions of his Mom only to lead the Hostile courtesy of visions of his Dad.
Wouldn't it? I was looking at noses in profile and I don't think it looks like Locke...
I don't know what it is about this episode, but I can't shake the feeling now that the visions and smokey are seperate things. Even though the vision of Ben's mother didn't cross the fence line.
The grey sand type stuff to me anyway looked like gun powder. What if it is or was some kind of fail safe against invasion by the Dharma initiative. Like If they get to close you light a match and in seconds that whole area is up in flames and burning to the ground, while Jacob or whatever escapes out the back, like Mel Gibson in Conspiracy theory.
Yes, Codysmom, this new guy has a definitive nose profile, like a boxer's broken nose. A new nose on the island! :o)
I don't like that Ben's a Capricorn; I like Capricorns
Good guess Ded, about the powder.
See-ins how Mr.Jacob don't like no moderin' contrapshuns near his cabin, I reckin' he would use that instead of the pylon doohickies. :o)
One other comment (these things always come to you head-on-pillow)...
Ben said, just before doing the 1st degree, that he was "one of the few" smart enough to avoid being in the pit, or something like that....
That means he's not the last surviving member of the DHARMA island project?
dedjezter - I think memphish was just pulling your chain on the movie you remember KK from (A Star is Born co-starred Barbra Streisand).
LOL, capcom!
BTW, I didn't think that TPTB could make me ever feel the least bit sorry or sympathetic for Ben, but they kind of did tonight. Up until the point when he killed his dad. Yech.
And yes, who said earlier that the bad-daddy thing is wearing a bit thin? Sheesh. They should change the company from 'Bad Robot' to 'Bad Dad' productions.
be back tomorrow... I have to watch it again and get some sleep!!
I like your avatars Codysmom, are you hinting at something? Jacob=Dad? :o)
Just trying to work it out in my mind, capcom:)
Love yours, capcom
I guess we are to believe that Ben sold his soul to the Hostiles? There are a lot more Ben backstories I want to see. Like how many meetings with Alpert did he have as he was waiting patiently to kill off everybody..
G'nite all! I hope that the Admins wake up early tomorrow and give us a new post to work with for the day!
I think I am going to have nightmares tonight. About dark cabins. :-o
ok, really going to bed now.... g'nite!
Ded, Ben did see a Mom vision inside the pylons back on his birthday when Annie gave him the carved Wilson Doll.
Annie was the alias Kate used in Australia. I think this is the real reason she's not on Jacob (uhh Ben's) list.
Back to the dolls. Annie gave little Ben the one that looked like him or the one that looked like her? Which does he have now?
Nighty night. Good luck West Coasters.
Capcom, dittoes on the Admin comment. Dennis, I know you're likely to be around here soon. Get cracking (insert whip sound here). :D
This is way out there, but the though of Jacob shaking things around reminded me of Jacob Marley and E-Ben-eezer Scrooge.
I told you it was out there. What do you expect? It's late and I'm tired.
OMG! The island better work some strong magic on Locke! Just finished, will play catch-up! BBL
hey all
awesome episode! I ave a few things for discussion:
1st remember the womb shots richard shows juliet? he says they are of a 23 yr old woman right? and She says something like 'they look to be from a 70 year old' this could explain richards non aging. hes a 70 yr old trapped in a body of a 23 year old!
i think that when dharma came to he island they promised to heal original inhab, kinda like in TLE when the were going to be presenting a vaccine to the locals in the rachel video but it was actually a virus to kill. what dharma promised here was fertility but instead gave them trouble of some sort: using people as guinea pigs?
2nd gut-shots are fatal because the wound is not a clean wound. through and throughs like naomi's branch can heal once the wound is cleaned of the foreign object. so that leaves us with was Locke's gut shoot a through and through?
Oh man ya'll are all gone and now I have to figure things out by myself. Dennis, Maven...?
Have no clue how Alpert stays so young, but I want what he's got.
Memphish- it's hard to wrap your mind around the time travel/dimension thing, but I was also wondering if Locke = Jacob and was warning Locke etc. Could there be overlapping dimensions here? That gets so complicated. But I really wonder if that has something to do with what is going on- like the whispers, the Adam and Eve skeletons, etc.
Man if we do WIT in book club first, I gotta go back to the library! LOL
Another questions re: hostiles. In Ben's schoolroom flashback the room started to shake like an earthquake, and there were loud "stomping" sounds- they said it was an attack by the Hostiles. Then that night Roger was talking to whatshisname and he said, we don't really know "what" they are (I think). So what the heck?
Yeah Andy, maybe the xray of the woman was one of the Hostiles. But who is she?
Maybe Alpert is like Aragorn in LOTR- he was some type of man that lives a long life, he tells the blond chick he was 80 years old or something like that. LOL
And- maybe Locke will be like Gandolf who "comes back from the dead" as a white wizard.
scout - if we take that Lord of the rings thing further that would make ben Golum right?
You know it wasn't easy viewing those pics on Sledgeweb's. Everyone must be looking at them. I don't know- I think it looks like Locke, but you know it's not clear. Can you imagine if you were TOQ and you got your script and realized that you were Jacob?! What fun that would be.
andy- well he does have the eyes for it! And one could argue that he has a split personality.
I don't understand- if Alpert is older, a Hostile, and apparently knows "stuff" about the island, then why and how did he end up being Ben's right hand man and not the other way around? Was it because Ben somehow made a connection with Jacob and the hostiles hadn't?
Why doesn't Jacob like modern technology- like flashlights? Perhaps the invisibility is just an illusion and the bright light from the flashlight would give that up?
No way will I believe Locke is dead. Not until someone checks his pulse!
But what a shocker of an episode...omg omg omg...at least the beachies are talking to one another. I think Jack is going to let everyone know that he sent Rousseau to the Black Rock for the dynamite.
And my first impression was that it was Karl's voice that said "My people are coming". I'll have to to re-listen.
I'm going to keep posting until someone else shows up or until it gets to 400 whichever comes first! j/k
Oh amused! You're here!
Let me know what you think. It would be cool if it was Karl warning them.
if TOQ is jacob = job security even if he doesn't survive this gun shoot wound.
oh and wouldn't it be cool if locke and ben were brothers from the same Emily?
I believe that Ben is in posession of the Girl doll. If that comforts the person who asked.
Jack better hope the dynamite was his idea- he needs a redeeming act.
Scoutpost, yeah I just got caught up. I am still in shock, I think, over the episode.
So, no DeGroots. darn.
Yeah- I forgot someone asked- he definitely had the girl doll.
Wow (Again!)!
Looked at the screencaps and on my HD DVR...Sure looks like Locke to me! (I believe I "predicted" this in the last thread! Hahaha) Problem is...I can't explain it! LOL
richard not aging could aslo be "explained" if the island is some time shifting place or that times normal properties stop or go on pause from the rest of the world.
I am guessing that Ben painted the portrait of his mom with the hamster, though. And Juliet's resemblance to her may be why he's sooooo not letting go of Juliet.
Andy, or if it's Purgatory! (I had to put that in for Chucklez...) No one ages in the afterlife, eh?
Scout are you saying in a round about kinda way that maybe it is a light bending trick of some sort and the flashlight makes things visable. Because I think that the light from the fire is what illuminated the man in the chair. So I don't know what to make of it.
andy said...oh and wouldn't it be cool if locke and ben were brothers from the same Emily?
But something fishy would have to happen for that to be true. We've seen Locke's mom and Ben's mom and they don't look at all alike.
The flashlight thing: maybe the light particles interfere with the projection(astral, hologram, transmission, whatever). Could be?
ded- I guess that's what I'm saying. Mainly I'm thinking if magicians can do all kinds of illusions, why couldn't Jacob? The light in the cabin was dim, and the chair could've been strategically placed. Jacob didn't flip out until Locke turned on the flashlight. (I think)
Yes amused that is a much more sophisticated answer for what I am thinking! LOL
Well, going to get some shut eye. I hope I don't dream about tonight episode--likely to be a nightmare!
{yawn}
But I still wonder about the school house incident.
Evangeline is on JK. Man she has some cut arms. And she's got blond highlights in her hair.
Sweet dreams amused. I know- now we all know why they switched to the later time slot.
Well, we did get some real answers, but as usual, many more questions.
1. Ben was NOT born on the island (I was wrong, I admit it!).
2. His father was Roger Work Man. Another Daddy issue story. Gosh, Daddy was so cruel telling young Ben he was responsbile for his mother's death.
3. Orientation film with Dr. Marvin Candle/Wickman was in color.
4. Others are very cult-like, especially when Jacob is mentioned.
5. Was that the "incident" when young Ben was in the classroom and there was a lockdown (there was shaking)?
6. Ben had an explanation for his hand shaking (Jacob will be angry).
7. Could Juliet still be setting them up?
8. What's up with Alpert not aging at all?
9. What is the grey sand barrier leading to Jacob's cabin?
10. Ben was always the master manipulator, planning with Alpert and the Hostiles against the DI.
11. I cannot explain what happened in Jacob's cabin...it's too late...I'll have to sleep on it.
i have been thinking about the first sceen. the whole bens birth thing.
another pseudo science explanation: there must be a portal between portland and the island. this portal was open when bens parents were out on their hike and boom ben comes early.
after ben was born 32 miles outside of portland what kind of car did the hippies drive? was that a very nice sports car? what are a couple of hippies doing with such a nice car? seriously. :-)
Well the JK interview is over- I don't know if I missed part of it or not, but she didn't talk about LOST at all. Kind of like MF last night on Leno. NOt that I expect a lot of LOST talk- but to go on a show and not even talk about it is weird.
Scout,
I agree that is wierd, I mean they said she was from Lost a lot, but for Jimmy to not ask Lost question is strange since he is a fan of the show.
andy said...another pseudo science explanation: there must be a portal between portland and the island. this portal was open when bens parents were out on their hike and boom ben comes early.
You have to wonder. Call me crazy, but when I was 7 months pregnant I was not going on hikes through forests or on scientific expeditions like Rousseau. What is up with these women? I was too busy eating for two.
BTW- Dennis- using your handy TLC helper. I like it!
Yeah Ded- Matt Fox did the same thing on Leno last night. I know Leno's not a fan like Kimmel- but it's still weird to go on and make small talk without saying a word about the show.
Scoutpost: Thanks for the heads up about Lily's appearance on Kimmel. Think I'll skip it.
I'm way too tired to try and make sense of the episode tonight. See everyone tomorrow!
re: the grey substance around Jacob's house- do you think Locke knew what it was after picking some of it up? I was originally thinking gun powder, too, but it seemed more sandy. (not that I know a lot about gunpowder)
I wonder if the epi where Tom dressed in Hostile attire and told Jack et al to not cross the line, etc. alluding to Jacob's line. And was the getup Tom was wearing back then an attempt to look like Jacob? In case the Losties encountered Jacob?
scout- i agree with the whole what are these pregnant women thinking!
didn't the hippies give each other a look when rodger said that they were out for a walk when boom birth started - like they have had this kind of thing happen before. hmmmm
also remember those time questions from earlier this season. i think that the island might be on a time loop thing. maybe our losties end up braking the cycle, or are the original hostiles who battle dharma in an attempt to end the cycle(series finale right there!)
i mean if there is a time loop going on it could also explain needing to be knocked out to get to the island and why richard is about the same (minus the hair) when he first sees ben as a boy and is willing to follow ben after the purge/ gassing of dharma.
Yeah andy- I know people don't like the time loop type of scenario. But there's been a lot of reference to something strange along those lines. But right now I'm clueless about what is going on on that blamed island. Talk about ignorance being bliss- if I were on the island, I would want to be one of those background people.
I'm thinking Wrinkle in Time or Brief History of Time might be the best books to start with in book club! Maybe we should bring in The Elegant Universe too.
Ugh, and with that last comment, I'm off to bed. My brain is tired.
So Samantha Mathis played Olivia = Teacher, who was also the hippy girl who pulled over on the side of the road.
And was the guy at the Island arrivals named Horus Goodspeed. or did I hear that wrong?
hey scout- i'm not sure tom was trying to be a jacob look a like. if jacob is such an important figure then you would think that the line would be further away from his place(the love shack). can you imagine a lostie comin up to the line? on no there is the line we shouldn't cross but wait what is this? its a little ol place were we can get together- love shack baby!
maybe the gray powder was ashes? people burned sacrifices to the almighty Jacob? that would be sick!
Also do these numbers mean anything to anyone
Fence #54439
Gas canister... ???431CTP
???Arge Gas
Poison (symbol as well)
A few more Questions then I am out for the night.
1) Why are the kids allowed to eat as many Apollo bars as they want?
2) Was a deal origonally made with the Natives or did Dharma try to take the Island by force?
3) Is the little canyon area where Ben met Alpert for the first time the same place where the Talies lost Cindy?
I am saving my Jacob theory for the Pod Cast... lol ... sorry
Jacob is none other than Carlton Cuse! Did anyone catch his voice cameo? His "help me" deserves an Emmy.
Good Morning. I have officially skimmed, and am marking my place. I think you all pretty much covered everything last night, but I still had some stuff rattling around in my brains:
thebookpolice said...Jacob is not physically on the Island. But he is mentally or psychically trapped there.
I really like this idea. Either that or Jacob IS on the island somewhere, but, like Walt, can project himself somewhere else.
dedjezter said...1) Why are the kids allowed to eat as many Apollo bars as they want?
Well, if we go by what TLE told us, then maybe there are psychotropic drugs in there. Why you would want to drug kids, well make to enhance their learning, make them complacent, not want to get out of the fence area?
scoutpost said...re: the grey substance around Jacob's house- do you think Locke knew what it was after picking some of it up? I was originally thinking gun powder, too, but it seemed more sandy. (not that I know a lot about gunpowder)
I think Locke knew what it was because he put it there.
I can not get over how much that Jacob screen cap on Sledgeweb looks like Locke with long hair. So I have myself convinced that it is him. I need to work this out more in my head, but, the theory of looping...not actually time looping physically, but that they can all see things that will happen but don't know it(From Fenris last week)might just work.
Locke may not actually be physically in that reoom but part of his essence from the future loops. Power of the mind and all that. Maybe that is what they are doing in Room 23, trying to harness the power of the mind.
Hey Everyone-
I just have to repeat how much I LOOOOVVVEEE reading your comments- I have not been able to catch up today- so forgive me for busting right into a conversation I might be derailing (feel free to ignore me till later tiime).
Given the "daddy" issues- (Memphish, I think you brought this to the forefront a coupla posts ago)- and how they played into Ben's history.... I have a slightly off topic, maybe "cock-a-may-me" theory that is burning a hole in my brain....
Any chance that Emma (the little girl taken by the others) is Sawyer's Cl-EM-entine? I don't know how that works in the timeline. Chucklez had posited that Sawyer's "test" was how he dealt with Cooper... but we see that Locke suffers consequences in this epi (maybe totally unrelated to Cooper incident).... if Cl-EM-entine could be Sawyers... is there still a chance at his redemption via how he recieves his daughter (ex. parrallel to Ben being rejected by his?) I'm such a ridiculous closet romantic, I just want him to be the redeemed and wonderful Sawyer.... sigh....the scene with Cooper broke my heart!
Also TBP---- I think we know from last night's epi you might not be totally "right on" with your Roger workman=Jacob theory... but wow... you got the humble beginnings/disgruntled employee thing right.... you all continue to impress me!!
Sorry long blubbering post... HA! I'm worse in person!
Lisa
Good Morning LoCo! I've got to catch up on the late posts and will be back later this morning. I hope some of you have it all figured out by the time I get back. :)
Ded, thanks for the call on the girl doll. It was me who asked about it.
Crazy theory for next week. Desmond will have a flash that shows Locke in the pit and will go to rescue him which is why Charlie will be on his own.
Good day-after-another-excellent-episode-of-Lost Day! I'm still in a state of shock from the ending. Going to catch up. Be back later.
Okay, I'm jumping right in with a theory that my co-worker and I just came up with:
Jacob hates technology because he was at ground zero when the incident occured. Whatever happened involved the anomaly under the Swan. Perhaps being so close when the incident happened knocked Jacob out of phase somehow. I think he is suffering from the same time phase that Desmond experienced, just on a much greater level. That's why he only appears physically for a second.
This would also be an explanation for why he is considered so powerful - he can predict and chane things because he appears in may time phases at once. This is also why he asks Locke to help him.
What do you think?
Good Morning LoCos!
...catching up now...
RE: The black powder circle. Scoutpost got me thinking on this. So two things:
1. In Voodoo and some wicca, Santaria, etc...the use of black salt to make a circle to ward off bad neighbors or bad things in general, is common.
2. The island has magnetic properties, and it has been speculated that is what the black rocks are all about. Could the black powder be refined or crushed magnetic black rock? If so, what is its purpose around Jacob's house?
Good morning LoCos
Interesting show last night.
andy
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thought that maybe the gray powder might be crushed and charred bones. Sort of a voodoo kind of thing. It was interesting that Ben stepped over it and even more that Locke did.
scoutpost
The school scene and Ben's dad talking to Horice after was bothering me last night too but I was to tired to rewatch it. I first thought it was stomping sounds like it was Smokey. After rewatching the school scene it seemed to me that the ground shaking was a plane going over like in TOTC with flight 815 the teacher seemed to glance up. The stompping sound was an explosion. I get this from the conversation with Roger and Horice.
Horice: Hey man I heard you ran into a little trouble. Roger: We're driving back from the plane and we hear this huge explosion, next thing I know there's a siren wailing and we're driving through the middle of a shoot out. Horice: Look we're having some skirmishes with the natives. Roger: What do you mean natives. Horice: Well, we're no eactly sure who they are.
And then Roger wants more money. So they were paying people to come to the island? I always assumed they were volunteers. I'm wondering if the natives/hostiles were attacking new arrivals.
Ah phooey my husband just called I have to take something to him at work. More theroies later.
Oh real quick. I think that I'm the only one who wasn't bothered buy Locke getting shot. I was surprised Ben did it but Locke kind of deserved it he was getting a little arrogant. Back soon.
My 2 cents...
Totally missed seeing Jacob.
Loved seeing John Locke as a total bada$$. Ben is threatened by him, that's why he shot him.
Apollo Bars -- shout out to TLE
sayid'sgirl said...Roger: We're driving back from the plane
Could they have their own plane?
Is it the food drop plane. Roger (Work Man) might have been picking up supplies from the plane.
OR maybe it was Yemi's plane?
I thought the powder-like ring was keeping Jacob inside. Jacob maybe trapped, hence the "Help Me"
melissa_lossa, I like your idea about Jacob being transformed by the incident. It stays within the confines of what we know has happened in the past on the show.
The thing that confuses me is if Jacob is controlling Ben, or Ben is controlling Jacob? it would seem to me that taking direction from a buy confined to a house isn't that swift. Of course, if it is that Jacob was involved in the incident, Ben may need his ability to see the future. Thus, that is why Ben can plan so well against the Losties, because he has knowledge of the future.
Maybe Ben has made a deal with Jacob like he's made with Juliet--You help me and then I'll help you, so that Jacob is tied to Ben somehow. That is why he needs Locke's help.
Who knows!?
I don't think Jacob is Locke. The voice is so wrong for him. It's a much lower man's voice.
Did everyone sleep okay last night? LOL I know I woke up about an hour earlier than usual with my minding going a mile a minute! What the heck happened on that episode? Like all your theories so far. After going back and rechecking on my HD, I saw "Jacob" and it sure looks like Locke! But I can't explain it other than the time-loop stuff. Jacob saying "Help me" and Locke echoing that when Ben shot him was eerie.
More later after catching up....
sayid'sgirl your post has really got me thinking today.
If DHARMA was paying people to come to the island that would make sense. We learned that Alpert was a "native" yet when he recruited Juliet, was he going as DHARMA or a native (or are they now one in the same)?
Questions:
*Was Juliet being paid to go to the island?
*Are we to assume the natives took over whatever DHARMA was doing after the purge? If so, where are they getting their money to pay new recruits (Juliet, Nathan, Goodwin, etc...).
*Where do "natives" on a secluded island get money to recruit/pay anyone?
good morning all,
I thought the gray sand was volcano ashes, since the made a point to say there was one on the island.
lisa - interesting thought about clementine. i could see that happening.
If the others were living off the land when did they get financed the way they are today.(mittelos) I think there is someone else from dharma that wanted the purge to happen.
experimentalfilm! said... memphish said... If only that statue still had eyeliner, then we would know Tim. LMAO . okay im reading up on some spoilers that i wont disclose but from what i read -- ------ -------- ---- ----- ---- --. i think its pretty awesome that ben was dharma, and not born on the island .. he has a real live past, and actually had to have known about all the stations .. could explain how he knew to deal with the lockdown. the first thing i thought about when i saw richard with him in the jungle is the age thing .. im rewatching and i think richard was about 20 ish, and ben was about 10 . so idk if the age thing is such a throw . and again, the whole pregnancy theme is present in the epi .
SPOILER REMOVED
Hi LoCos
Just watched the ep. Oh my godness, oh my godness, oh my goodness.
No more Locke. Who's going to blow stuff up now??
going to attempt to catch up!!
IEAL
just think only 3 more years before we really understand what the hell is going on..
Do they have to pay people or do they just have to promise they'll pay them? Do your stint on the Island with free room, board and food and when your're done we'll pay you the big bucks? (And then they never let them leave).
how would jacob summon people?
I understand why ben is so into the mothers dying at birth thing.
IMHO I dont think locke is jacob. and i was not all that bothered with him getting shot. if his daughter gives you a gun and you think he ben crazy when he takes you to a mass grave site you might not want to turn your back on him.
Lastly, I wish sawyer would just beat the crap out of jack. even if he has good intentions he is putting Jules above the group.
Great point on DI employees being paid. I always thought those recruited in the 70's were idealistic hippy-like people that would jump at the chance to "save humanity". Maybe those who do the grunt work -- janitors, etc. needed to be paid to get them to come (although Roger seemed pretty upset he was assigned as a Work Man, so he might have been suckered into coming to the island).
I don't get why Alpert didn't age, while other people do (like Ben, and Amelia from the Book Club, etc.)? What makes him so special? Could he be more important than Ben? Ben is really just a lowly Work Man's son trying to make himself more important.
There really seems to be a cult-like feel to Jacob. When his name is mentioned by Locke, the Others are stunned and seem in awe.
did ben and roger come to the island by sub? i thought i rememeber seeing them walk from the dock. if there is an airport there why did they use the sub?
bigdog said...how would jacob summon people?
There are way way too many "hows" aboout Jacob:
How is he invisible but for a few seconds in the chair?
How does invisible Jacob make things fly around and cause a general uproar?
How is a flashlight THAT disturbing?
How is it that Ben is the ony one he "speaks" to?
How can anyone live in that gross little shack?
How is it being invisible and only getting to talk to a psycho who carries a man purse!?
Also, I totally agree, bigdog, they mentioned the volcano for a reason. I feel so confused by all there is to think about!
maven: Maybe you need to be a "native" to not age. We don't know if Amelia was a later recruit (like Juliet) do we?
I don't think anyone has said this, but if they have, I apologize. My theory on the grey stuff on the way up to Jacob's cabin? Ash from the volcano (the one the Dharma teacher mentioned in Ben's class). When Locke picks it up, it's powdery. Just my two cents. :)
By the way, some of you might remember me as Your Mother from TLE. :) Aw, how I've missed hitting F5.
ange - LOL. you are soooo right. i should keep it simple. i dont think he is invisible. i think locke cant see him because he didnt really kill his father. and doesnt believe.
People see things that they believe in all the time.(horses, dead parents)
The fact that richard hasnt aged and ben has as well as getting cancer shows that richard is higher up that Ben. Richard was intrigued when he heard young ben had seen his mom, thats why he asked if she died on the island, if so she could have healed up , but like jack or eko if the smoke comes to you as a dead relative and doesnt come back to kill you then you are doing good, If Ben wanted locke dead he would have shot him again. Ben obviously pretented to hear what jacob was saying. He figures that the island will save Locke if he is worthy. Besides calling him out in front of the others I thin ben genuinly wants to know if locke will be able to hear jacob. I feel there still could be a man behind the curtain that we are not seeing yet. This episode showed that they probablly recruited ben from birth much like walt, horace showing up in portland right at the right moment seems too perfect. It reminded me of how the buhdists scout out their dhali laama candiates well in advance. Richard seems to be much more keyed in to the islands healing powers thats why he hasnt aged. Obviously there is a lot of stuff we missed between when richard found ben to him growing up and gassing his father.
if thats the case then maybe sawyer can see Jacob or Kate since she killed her father
I agree with bigdog about the grey stuff being volcanic ash, since the teacher was telling them about the volcano.
Maybe Jacob's hut is located in or around the volcano?
Hey, Stephanie! (I remember you!). But I don't think the grey stuff was so powdery...it seemed almost like wet sand to me when Locke picked some up. Somehow, I think it relates to volcanoes...which the teacher made a point of in the classroom.
Also, the Apollo bars were different than the ones we got during TLE. Wonder why the children can eat as much as they want? Drugs?
I Noticed that too Maven! I turned to my LOST viewing buddy and said "That doesn't look like MY Apollo bar!!" And if it's not ash (which could've been wet from rain ... it rains all the time on that island!), I agree that it still has to do with the volcano.
So, is it a different Apollo candy? Maybe it's the mysterious MILK chocolate!
I don't get this not ageing thing. Surely one would have to age to reach the point of non-aging.
Does that make sense?
DHARMA's island operations - all designed to draw fire away from the Swan? No one seems to know or mention it within DHARMA except those stationed in it (and maybe in the Pearl, although the video never said the name of that "other station"), and Marvin Candle.
Are we going to need to know who ate an Apollo bar out of the Swan's stash? Is that going to be important? Since Rose grabbed one for Bernard, is that how they become important? Some kind of immunity/ability/whatnot? I too caught Annie's comment about eating as many as they like.
The Apollo bars on the show have always been different than our Apollo bars. Kate was eating one when they first found the hatch (season 2??) and it was all gooey inside. Still think that there are psychotropic drugs in there per TLE.
IEAL: Maybe the island slows aging...not stops it. For every 1 year normal people age, maybe it takes ten years to reach that for a "native".
Any thoughts on the significance of the things in Jacob's shack?: The dog painting, the red bottles near the window, etc. Dark UFO has some screencaps of the stuff there.
Ben's white rabbit (which we saw in the con with Sawyer and the number 8 bunny...could be the descendant of Ben's pet): Seemed very reminiscent of Alice in Wonderland and following the White Rabbit to all her adventures. Also, white rabbits are used my magicians (a sort of con man).
Ange: I tried to play close attention to the shack (when is the cleaning crew coming? LOL)! I looked at the screencaps on Dark UFO. There's speculation that the jars could be holding specimens, but they looked clear to me. Maybe they're just some juice? I have no idea why that dog painting is there? Other than Vincent, what other dogs are important to the show?
Morning LoCos! In the morning rush of getting kids out the door. I want to comment so bad! BBL
I think that Ben is coming unraveled. All his plans are in jeopardy. He is losing control of "his people". I believe he was genuinely surprised that Juliet's tape was missing and Locke probably took it. He can't seem to get his people to follow orders (no one would stop Locke from plummeting Mikhael). Ben seems pretty desperate to maintain control and was shocked that Locke actually killed his father and fulfilled his side of the bargain. And, to make matters worse...Locke can actually hear Jacob!
Okay this is going to sound totally simplistic but what if the jars in the cabin are tea? Anyone ever make sun tea?
When the Losties visit Patchy at the farmhouse he gives them tea and makes a point to mention that he grew/made it himself. I don't know why it would matter, but it was a thought.
Maven: I think the jars look clear too.
OMFG> Hi i just watched the episode and my brain hurts.
i thought when i seen that bunny i thught of joop could that be the same rabbit just really old.
ok i be back in a minute once i collect myself and my thoughts
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