Wednesday, May 02, 2007

THE BRIG - SEASON 3, EPISODE 19









Tonight we should get some insight into Locke's time with the Others and maybe some clues about how Anthony Cooper ended up on the island. It also looks like Sawyer will be tempted when Locke approaches him with some serious dirty work. The promo teases that "loyalties are tested" and "alliances are broken" as survivors begin to process the presence of the mysterious parachutist and her insights on the fate of Oceanic Flight 815.

422 comments:

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Amused2bHere said...

Chucklez, and all

so if Locke thinks he killed Patchy, why would he think he's clean?

Unless he knows Patchy isn't dead yet...

capcom said...

Tx, MBB. Yeah, his travel agent from hell!

memphish said...

That A2BH was my point in the last thread. But I don't understand how killing the thing that showed up in the "box" in front of children makes you worthy either.

Amused2bHere said...

LOL Capcom Travel agent from HELL

Darkaardvark said...

DeDJeZTeR said... "in this show you can always go back somewhere and go
"Wow, they set that up a while ago!""


The Sawyer/Locke connection was set up in The Hunting Party- more than a season ago.

SAWYER: Oh, I don't know, Mr. Clean, I probably would have gone around Mt. Vesuvius.

LOCKE: Why'd you pick that name?

SAWYER: Ain't it obvious? All you need's an earring and a mop.

LOCKE: No, your name. Why'd you pick Sawyer?

SAWYER: What do you mean, pick?

LOCKE: After the census Hurley gave me the flight manifest. Your name is James, right? James Ford.

SAWYER: What's it to you?

LOCKE: Just an interesting name to choose, is all. Who'd you get it from?

SAWYER: Who says I got it from anybody?

Amused2bHere said...

Yeah, Memphish, it seems like our definition of good, worthy, etc. has been turned upside down!

chucklez3 said...

amused: maybe that was never the intent. he pushed what he thought was an evil man into harms way to save those he was "protecting".

same idea as any protector actually.

capcom said...

Hmmmm, I wonder how all these events this season match up with Loco-Locke's vision and Boone's instructions for him? Have to go back and check that this weekend.

Amused2bHere said...

I love that they are keeping the actors in the dark as much as possible too. This way they don't project too much into each scene.

memphish said...

Here's something I noticed -- it takes one day, maybe a day and 1/2 to heal a punctured lung, but 6 days to heal a bite from your father. And I thought it was only the more fertile men and dead pregnant women that was screwy about this Island.

memphish said...

Was Sawyer's week of no-nicknames up or did he just assume Locke wouldn't know about the bet when he called him Tarzan in the beginning?

chucklez3 said...

yeah. josh said he's always scared to read the scripts cuz he's afraid sawyer will be killed off.

i think if it's justified, it could very well happen.

eh.

capcom said...

"The rules are a bit different on this island", Memphish. :o)

chucklez3 said...

memphish: great time to "let it out" when locke came around cuz he doesn't know about the bet.

memphish said...

TBP, so I guess Locke is Dorothy? The fabled one who does the impossible in killing a wicked witch. In the book, The Wicked Witch of the West drives the Wizard out of the West. How would Ben's people have "heard" about this man who couldn't walk who now could. I guess through Patchy!

chucklez3 said...

anyway.......i've said my piece. talk to everyone later.

amused: talk to you before the weekend, right???

peace folks.

Amused2bHere said...

chucklez,

If Locke was protecting his friends from the "evil man", by pushing him into the sonic fence to test it, then why couldn't he justify killing Cooper, since he'd be protecting everyone from such scum?

I guess the answer must lie in the "he's my father" thing, that he's not just a random bad guy. The hope that somehow, someway, there's a possible father-son relationship that can be had.

Sometimes you just have to let go and move on. They just aren't able to give you what you need, and you have to accept that. Grieve it, and move on.

Sorry, that's sounds more like a SotL post!

memphish said...

Dang TBP, the more I think about it, the more you're right. Ben isn't just the man behind the curtain. He's the giant workman fraud behind it. He set the impossible task before Locke, killing your own dad, just like the Wizard gave Dorothy et al the impossible task of killing the wicked witch, a task which he himself could not accomplish.

Amused2bHere said...

Yes, chucklez, I'll email ya!

chucklez3 said...

because he didn't know what would happen with the fence. that's why he didn't know he would die. it wasn't a "pre-meditated" thing.

memphish said...

A2BH, my husband was saying the same thing about killing your father, but he of course didn't know their history of nothing but John getting screwed encounters. I think I might have been able to take A Coop out, but not on Ben's sacrificial altar terms. What A Coop did should have been between him and Locke, not for Ben or anyone else's amusement or gratification.

capcom said...

I lean towards thinking that Locke knew that Patchy wouldn't die. That is, it was pre-arranged between them. That's why it was done so fast, and the B-Team was left gawking in disbelief. Locke told Patchy that he wanted to join them, back at the Flame. Then they make the plan to fake Patchy's death, and Locke gets in to see Ben. Maybe. :o)

memphish said...

Chucklez good point about not knowing what the fence might do, but I'd have indicted him for depraved heart murder if only Patchy had stayed dead. I don't think there is an attempted depraved heart murder, just criminal negligence maybe at this point. Combining LOST with Law and Order -- don't forget the piano chords.

chucklez3 said...

capcom: that could very well be also.

okay, gone for real. g'nite!!

capcom said...

Did anyone get a good look at the primitive sacrificial post there? Did it have any decoration on it? Have to look that up in the caps.

memphish said...

All right, I just looked up Bali and it's in the wrong direction from Sydney to LA. That's crazy talk. Just look at google maps.

capcom said...

'Night all! Gotta go process this in the dreams now.

memphish said...

When Ben woke up Locke to sacrifice A Coop, that would have been the same night Naomi crashed.

TheBookPolice said...

A younger Ben could have been driven by shame, jealousy, greed, any number of weaknesses. I'm guessing he'll be revealed as the one who sold DHARMA out to The Hostiles.

Side note: Did anyone else hear the mechanical noise that the Monster makes, except in the Others' caravan campsite? I swear I heard it a couple times. I guess it's the cab printer noise. That ticking as all nature goes quiet and right before ol' Smokey shows up.

Was it just me?

memphish said...

How is having Sawyer kill your dad not cheating like having chicken in your fridge?

Anyone left?

Amused2bHere said...

can u believe we are already past 225 comments?

no wv!

memphish said...

TBP, I'll have to rewatch for sounds. I didn't get to watch under ideal viewing circumstances.

luckyguylikeme said...

thebookpolice said... One more: how did Locke get the tape recorder from Ben? Is Locke still being played? Is he a willing conspirator in an effort to draw all the Losties out? Or did he actually manage to steal it?

In the scene where Ben asks for Locke, and Locke walks into Ben's tent as he's listening to the tape recorder, it seemed to me as if Ben made it as obvious as possible that he put it into that one drawer. I think Locke may still be being played.

Amused2bHere said...

I didn't hear Smokey ticking, I'll have to go rewatch.

memphish said...

So what's interfering with the sat phone signal? It can't still be THE transmission can it? Also, was Naomi's ship 18 or 80 miles away? I heard 18 when Naomi said it and 80 when Kate did.

Amused2bHere said...

How's this: Ben intended for Locke to take the recorder and "out" Juliet. He's double crossing her.

TheBookPolice said...

I can't wait to read the recaps of this episode tomorrow. Wood and Doc should be chock full of crazy theory.

Gotta hit the hay. My head's been aching for the last two days, and that was before this episode.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I just thought of something. Alex told Jack their punishment was eye for an eye. So maybe when Cindy said they were there to watch they were there to watch Juliet be killed not her trail.

memphish said...

Is Richard Alpert like Mrs. Hawking and Brother Campbell? He tells Locke he has to find his purpose. Maybe he's been keeping Ben on his path all this time while waiting for Locke's time to come.

memphish said...

Handsome Jack of the Jay and Jack podcast has been saying since OOU that Juliet was left behind by Ben so that the LOSTies would kill her and he wouldn't have to. If Jack's not careful, he'll be in noose #2.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I agree capcom I think Patchy and Locke was in on it together to push him throught the fence. Locke knows he isn't dead.

Amused2bHere said...

Sayid's girl: I also think that was what they were there to watch, the trial, sentencing and then the execution.

memphish said...

So seriously, how did A Coop get to the Island? Herarat Aviation brought him? When? Guess he can't tell us the date now.

memphish said...

A2BH, your new avatar is creepy. Doesn't mean I don't like it, but it has a very Ben Linus feel to it.

My first thought when A Coop said that he'd been tied up by his dead son was that we'd done a full Sixth Sense and that all of the LOSTies had died before they got on Flight 815. But then A Coop clarified that no the fall hadn't killed Locke, just the plane.

memphish said...

So is Locke going to try to rejoin Ben or is he going to try to find Rousseau or something else?

Totengraber said...

Hey,

Rouso and a case of TNT. That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Party time!!
Ben's gonna blow up real goood!

Dig All Y'all Later

memphish said...

I actually know a woman named Mary Ford. Actually this being the South and given that she's from Atlanta, her name is Mary Call Ford, but still it's Mary Ford.

I was scared that Locke was going to kill Sawyer so that Ben would be unable to discover that Locke had not been the one to kill A Coop.

Amused2bHere said...

Memphish, yeah that is a creepy avatar...I couldn't resist it!

Richard Alpert seemed to say that if Locke couldn't kill Cooper that it would still count if he had someone else do it.

bleh. I guess Alpert is in the "antiBen" group. Like Juliet, Alex, Karl. Maybe Goodwin?

Sayid'sgirl said...

amused2behere love your avi

Amused2bHere said...

btw, Lucifer was an angel who tried to take his creator's place (Daddy?)

Is Ben=Lucifer?

Amused2bHere said...

thanks Sayid's girl!

memphish said...

What does A Coop matter to the Others? Can't they send him back through the box to the ambulance? :o)

Well, I'll have to think about this all some more tonight. Catch you all in the am. I hope there won't be any spam, because no wv is awesome.

All in all I don't think this was one of my favorite episodes and not game changing. We're in a world now where everyone is very EMFH including Dr. LTDA. I don't like it. A Jack that won't let Kate walk all over him, that I like. A Jack that walks over all the LOSTies and trusts Juliet, that I don't.

I guess this confirms that Jack and Juliet shared info. pre-gassing thus explaining his "even Juliet" statement when Kate woke him in Othersville.

memphish said...

I think Ded and Chucklez better get that tar and feather together, Purgatory by any other name would still end in tar and feathers for TPTB.

Actually, I like it being Purgatory, I just don't like TPTB lying.

And as someone earlier said, does this mean Sawyer dies now?

Amused2bHere said...

True, Memphish, it certainly looks like Jack was part of a con. But what would make him turn like this?

Too many blanks to fill in yet.

Amused2bHere said...

You can actually use Locke carrying his dad's dead weight around as a metaphor for real grief work.

But that's another topic for the Stories of the Lost blog!

Sayid'sgirl said...

one more thought then I'm going to bed. Do you think Ben intended for Sawyer to kill Cooper all along? He must have known Locke couldn't do it. I'm pretty sure he sent Richard to tell him to have Sawyer to do it so Locke would think he had an out and still be part of the group. Locke's been conned so many times before why would he think Ben had sent Richard? He would think Richard was befriending him.

Amused2bHere said...

Although it really makes Locke a pitiful fool, I have to agree SG. Locke still held out hope for his dad, trusting him to the end (else why turn his back on him to call the girlfriend). So he thinks to himself ok, now I'm really "in", so Ben wouldn't con me any more. Even after Ben manipulated him into blowing up the sub. Locke still hasn't caught on.

scoutpost said...

Well this is a place keeper for me while I go catch up.

amused- cool avatar!

Codysmom said...

Finally got caught up! Hubby came home after business trip tonight, so had to watch ep later....

just a few points...

Isn't Locke just as guilty of killing his father as Sawyer since he knew what Sawyer's reaction would be?

OK, this is all about Princess Bride (the movie). First we have Patchy (mostly dead all day) and then we have Sawyer (my name is >>>>> You killed my Father, prepare to die.)

"It's your mess, John. Why would we clean it up?" says Ben... in reference to Locke's sweat lodge vision. How would Ben know this??????

DiggityDirge said...

Hey All,

Just finished watching and about to go through it a second time and catch up on comments.

Couple observations:

1. Can't con a con man, can't bs a bs'er. Apparantly not. Sawyer conned into Locke's plan. Locke was a little Beneske in his manipulation and planning.

2. Naomi is another one of Ben's cons. After tonight, I have serious doubts about her really being there to rescue Dez. In fact, I think she is actually there for Dez becuase of his new found "special status" since the hatch imploded. Why would she tell Mikhail that she is not alone and not tell the losties. Also, Sayid doesn't seem to beleive her and she has to threaten him to try to make him beleive. I smell something fishy.

3. John's not crippled anymore now that Daddy is dead. At the end Sawyer and Locke have an exchange where Locke says this. John's dad can longer prevent Locke from the future.

4. Hurray for the masses who have speculated since season 2 that Copper is the real Sawyer. Another anticlimactic answer. First, how Locke got in the wheelchair, now this. I would have preferred some better writing for these two. I guess the question is why kill Cooper? To prove loyalty, a sacrifice, or some other underlying Ben master plan?

5. Speaking of the master planner himself, some more beautiful manipulation by Ben. This guy keeps amazing me.

6. Locke healed Ben. I don't buy it. Ben was on his way to recovery according to Jack.

7. Taking the women: Goodwin must have moved pretty fast if they decided to take all those tailess in the first couple of nights. Another case of Ethan being a slacker :)

8. The plane diversion: Don't know how much of that to believe. We know from Mikhails TV feed that the plane did go missing, but a cover up of that magnitude? I don't put it passed the others abilities but the story seems a bit far fetched.

9. Locke outing Juliett. Interesting...not sure what to think of that yet.

10. Rousseau - And she's back to her old tricks. What happened to her tracking her daughter. What's the dynamite for. We better learn next week that she is an other or I am going to start to get mad about this too. Can we please have a friekin back story after 3 years. Hopefully the dynamite is to try to break Alex away.

11. I believe as usual Locke has mistaken fate for coincidence.

12. Locke is now a special person. Why I don't know. He seems like more dmamged goods to me than anyone else on the island. And Cindy and the other captive losties telling Locke they have been waiting for him. Has Cindy been in on this pre flight 815. Seems weird.

13. Jack and Juliett. Should we tell them?? Umm, please. Is it possible you will tell us why you are acting like an idiot Jack. What do they know that they aren't telling the group.

DiggityDirge said...

chucklez3 said...
again.....do any of us believe that if we had the answer, TPTB would ACKNOWLEDGE IT??

It's no purgatory. Why do you always think everyone in the world is lying to us Chuck? TPTB have for the most part always been truthful. Not saying hell is out of the question, but if I had to pinpoint one person as the TLC conspiracty theorist it is definetly u bro.

Codysmom said...

diggitydirge said..

2. Naomi is another one of Ben's cons. After tonight, I have serious doubts about her really being there to rescue Dez. In fact, I think she is actually there for Dez becuase of his new found "special status" since the hatch imploded. Why would she tell Mikhail that she is not alone and not tell the losties. Also, Sayid doesn't seem to beleive her and she has to threaten him to try to make him beleive. I smell something fishy.

interesting observation... I like it!

Codysmom said...

My eyes are starting to cross...
see you tomorrow!!

DiggityDirge said...

Amused2bHere said...
Chucklez, and all

so if Locke thinks he killed Patchy, why would he think he's clean?

Great frieking point. Very Very nicely done.

I also like thebookpolices theory about The Wizard of Oz and Ben. It will be interesting to see if the story goes down that road.

maven said...

OMG! WOW! They've got my head spinning again! Gonna try to read your posts and try to sleep, then see you guys in the morning....

DiggityDirge said...

Here's one argument why Lost should pick a new time slot next year. So the west coasters can have some TLC chatter after the epi's over. no good chat for us west coaster until Memphish wakes up at 2:00 a.m. and reads our comments :)

Dennis said...

Here are my 12 screen shots from the preview for next week.


DiggityDirge said... I had to pinpoint one person as the TLC conspiracty theorist it is definetly u bro.

LOL. don't forget about ThinBlueMime :) I think they are neck and neck!

Amused2bHere said...

well, somebody has to watch over our shoulders!

LOL

DiggityDirge said...

thxs for the caps Big D. Very Nice!

Amused2bHere said...

Dennis,

great job with those screen caps! The last one, is that Alpert?

He looks familiar...

Amused2bHere said...

Well, I gotta get some sleep. See ya all in the morning!

(humming "follow the yellow brick road..." )

DiggityDirge said...

One kind of related but not related note at the same time.

I just finished watching Smokin Aces the other night for the first time and was stunned to see Dr. Alpert kill Jack in the movie. Both Matthew Fox and the Nestor Carbonell are in the movie and the only scene with Matthew Fox is completely centered around Carbonell killing him.

I wonder if that is how ACarbonal got hooked up for his character on LOST?

scoutpost said...

diggitydirge said...
I also like thebookpolices theory about The Wizard of Oz and Ben. It will be interesting to see if the story goes down that road.

A yellow brick road perhaps?! Actually for what it's worth, I like that theory too.

I'm hesitant with the whole purgatory, hell scenario. That's too easy. People, including myself have been saying that since season 1. Aren't TPTB smarter than that? But if it is, count me in on the tar and feathering.

OK here goes:
man purse- too funny, I knew RA was up to something when I saw the bag on his shoulder. Ben always delivers some kind of news when he wears that bag.

Re: the place where the Others were camped. What the heck was that place- looked like an old Temple ground (or TBM should I say Temple mound?) Like Capcom said, we'll need a closer look at that, but it looked ancient like the 4 toed statue. And...where the heck are the Others off to? I mean they're only supposed to be gone a week.

Rousseau + dynamite= BOOM! What the heck is she gonna do now?!

Do Jack and Juliet have some kind of plan? And if so, Locke is getting ready to screw that up by outting her? I like the idea that Ben is double crossing her and "feeding" her to the Losties. That makes sense that he is getting everyone else to do his killing for him. And we know he didn't want to call off her sentence back on Alcatraz. I bet that is his plan all along.

If Richard is to be believed and the fertility is just a distraction used by Ben, then why was it so urgent to have Juliet come to the island? Couldn't they have gotten any fertility doc to be part of a distraction? Does Juliet really have a purpose there? Or is Ben the only one who is obsessed with fertility (infertility) and Richard was just trying to say that no one else really cares about that? Ugh so much to talk about.

diggity- good call about Naomi- if she's telling the truth, why did she say she wasn't alone to Patchy. She's definitely lying.

scoutpost said...

Yeah diggity, an earlier timeslot is better for us west coasters to chat, but I kind of like the later slot, just 'cause I liked seeing Charlie get the arrow to the neck. (That is sick- I'm really not into gratuitous violence.)

maven said...

Everyone has such good ideas and theories...I'm just too tired to make sense of what I watched tonight.
I do like the Wizard of Oz stuff and what TBP said about Ben=Roger Work Man makes a lot of sense.

I'm going to sleep on everything and try to sort it out tomorrow!

scoutpost said...

Dennis- those screen caps are great. Really eerie.

amused- I think that last one is Richard Alpert- with long hair.

DiggityDirge said...

Scoutpost,

I'm not sure what to think of Jules at this point since she seems to be playing all sides. I would agree she isn't is in the Losties camp for fertility reasons. It is probably the reason she thinks she is there but Ben has another reason. Probably the continued manipulation of Jack?

The went to such lengths to explain the fertility issue that I believe it is a big issue on the island, but Jules isn't on the beach for that right now. Definetly another Ben well orchestrated plan.

Dennis said...

Amused2bHere said... The last one, is that Alpert?

Yeah, that's the "hippie" version of Richard Alpert.


There's also the screenshot that reminds me of Wilson :)

Anyone remember the Wilson Hatch?

scoutpost said...

The Wilson Hatch is creepy- but that screen cap does look a bit like him.

scoutpost said...

Here's another question- If Ben knew Sawyer's history, then why was he certain that Locke brought A Coop to the island and not Sawyer? Or do you think the dossier didn't have the exact info that A Coop was aka Tom Sawyer and that Locke put 2 and 2 together from some previous info he had on his dad- like darkaardvark pointed out from The Hunting Party?

scoutpost said...

....or was it just a part of the master manipulator's plan to set Locke up again?

Ebonflame said...

My latest theory is that perhaps Richard Alpert is trying to use Locke to overthrow Ben. Perhaps Juliet and Jack are in on it to? that is why they have their secrets? And also i know this is from last week, but if Sun's father is the head of Paik Heavy Industries (Lost Experience), and he can afford to have Jin beat up the minister of agriculture in season 1 over a facility being closed and getting away with it do you think that Mr. Paik could have made the decoy plane that crashed? perhaps he is trying to punish his daughter for trying to escape so he sold her and all the people on her plane to Hanso? i think Sun and Jin will prove to be much more important then they currently appear to be. That's it for tonight i'll check back tomorrow!

Dennis said...

diggitydirge said... 2. Naomi is another one of Ben's cons. After tonight, I have serious doubts about her really being there to rescue Dez. In fact, I think she is actually there for Dez becuase of his new found "special status" since the hatch imploded. Why would she tell Mikhail that she is not alone and not tell the losties. Also, Sayid doesn't seem to beleive her and she has to threaten him to try to make him beleive. I smell something fishy.

scoutpost said... good call about Naomi- if she's telling the truth, why did she say she wasn't alone to Patchy. She's definitely lying.

I don't think she is lying. I think she was in shock, so erratic behavior is to be expected.

Her story matches Cooper's regarding the plane crash. This could point to conspiracy, but I think it points to the truth.

I think Sayid initially thought she may be lying, but not after she showed him the phone.

As to Desmond being special, I don't think anyone knows about it except for Hurley, Claire, and Charlie. How would the Others have found out?


I'm out! See y'all tomorrow!

Dennis said...

Wacky theory before I go...

The stick with the happy face = Jacob

scoutpost said...

ebonflame- welcome
Paik industries definitely has the dough to pay for a cover up of that magnitude, as does the Widmore corp. So that could be true.

Well that is true about A Coop corroborating the crash story, but I still think she's lying to the Losties :)

scoutpost said...

The stick with the happy face = Jacob


LOL! I'm out too, see ya'll in the am.

DiggityDirge said...

scoutpost said...
....or was it just a part of the master manipulator's plan to set Locke up again?

The famous Echo line comes to mind everytime Locke has a conflict. "Don't mistake coincidence for fate."

I think part of Ben's plan. Ben seems to have a few loyal subjects and Richard seems to be one. Ben can see Locke isn't angry when he see's Coop, so he uses information against him. I can't remember the exact quote, but something to the effect of "The same way I get anyone to do anything. I find out what is important and exploit it." What is important to John? Resolving his issus with his dad. Time to exploit it.

If I had to pick one of the others who would betray Ben it would be Tom. Tom really warmed up to Jack and became friendly, and has seemed to do the same with John. (we see a brief interaction) A huge role reversal from the guy we used to think was evil Ziek and Mr Friendly.

DiggityDirge said...

I guess the question left in my mind is why did Ben want Cooper dead. To prove that he can control John? To free John's mind? To determine if Sawyer is capable of killing? Did he somehow hurt Dharma or one of their intiatives.

Ben went to great lengths to get him killed.

DiggityDirge said...

One last note than bed time. Juliett is the one who suggests telling Kate whatever it is that Jack and her are hiding.

Interesting that she suggests it not Jack. Makes me think it could all be part of the master plan Ben has worked up. I would think Jack would want to be the one to bring Kate up to speed, not Jules.

memphish said...

Hey DiggityDirge. You win my favorite comment of the night:

Here's one argument why Lost should pick a new time slot next year. So the west coasters can have some TLC chatter after the epi's over. no good chat for us west coaster until Memphish wakes up at 2:00 a.m. and reads our comments :)

Usually I'm here by 3:30 am PDT unless it's Flashes or Man from Tallahassee.

Ange said...

Good morning. GREAT screen caps Dennis. They are the talk of the teacher’s room at my school this morning.

Okay so thoughts/place marker:

1. Danielle and the explosives- Man, she shows up at just the right time EVERYTIME. I am thinking that she was really there to see what Locke was up to and maybe report back to Ben. Either that or she is the one running the show.

2. Hell- Feasible, but I dunno. Although Hell would certainly explain why they can’t leave the island, and why they can’t return (Don’t look back, etc… when you are rescued from hell). Also, might explain the unusual way of getting to the island. Maybe Juliet was not knocked out but killed so she could enter? Also, a baby born from Hell is for sure interesting to think about.
*Check out this painting: Garden of Earthly Delights

3. The Crash- Naomi says (and please correct if this is wrong, only watched once) that they saw the wreckage/dead via an underwater camera. Is it possible that it was not actual footage but a closed circuit cam or video of dead bodies?

BLACK_ROCK said...

hi i love lost i live in australia so i have to wait till i can download it probaly tomoro. but i thank everyone for there theroies i love rading wat everyone thinks . cant wait for the brig

bye bye

memphish said...

Now for my "serious" comments on the comments.

Codysmom said: "It's your mess, John. Why would we clean it up?" says Ben... in reference to Locke's sweat lodge vision. How would Ben know this?????? Great memory Codysmom. I guess Ben could be plugged in to whatever causes the dreams and visions on the Island or more likely the dialogue was meant to make us remember Locke heard it before, but not so much that Ben knew what Locke's vision was.

DD said: 2. Naomi is another one of Ben's cons. After tonight, I have serious doubts about her really being there to rescue Dez. In fact, I think she is actually there for Dez becuase of his new found "special status" since the hatch imploded. Why would she tell Mikhail that she is not alone and not tell the losties. Also, Sayid doesn't seem to beleive her and she has to threaten him to try to make him beleive. I smell something fishy. This is the most reposted thing of the night. And I wanted to repost it too. I'm going to keep thinking about this one. We sure are a mistrustful bunch now aren't we?

DD also said: 7. Taking the women: Goodwin must have moved pretty fast if they decided to take all those tailess in the first couple of nights. Another case of Ethan being a slacker :) I rewatched "The Other 48 Days" after OOU and the Others took mostly men from the Tailies.

More to follow.

memphish said...

I don't know what to make of those preview screencaps except to be very excited for next week. I like how some of them seem to be in Black and White like the beginning and end of The Wizard of Oz. Reading the book recently, Kansas is described as gray and Oz as amazingly beautiful. I'd guess the Island appears to be similarly different from the real world by Dharma.

I like that the Wilson-esque stick could be Jacob. Good idea Dennis.

The eerie woman definitely looks like a frumpy Juliet in the Lost-Media screen cap.

memphish said...

Ebonflame said: My latest theory is that perhaps Richard Alpert is trying to use Locke to overthrow Ben. Perhaps Juliet and Jack are in on it to? that is why they have their secrets? And also i know this is from last week, but if Sun's father is the head of Paik Heavy Industries (Lost Experience), and he can afford to have Jin beat up the minister of agriculture in season 1 over a facility being closed and getting away with it do you think that Mr. Paik could have made the decoy plane that crashed? perhaps he is trying to punish his daughter for trying to escape so he sold her and all the people on her plane to Hanso? i think Sun and Jin will prove to be much more important then they currently appear to be. That's it for tonight i'll check back tomorrow!

Boy the crosses, double-crosses, triple-crosses mount. My hubby told me a co-worker of his gave up on LOST this season. I say that's too bad, because I love all this crazy stuff. I do think you need to be in a community where you can hash this craziness out. Thanks TLC for being that! Hugs

Ebonflame, I like your idea of Paik being involved in the coverup. We know they have a shipping division. Could it involve mini-subs with cameras?

Staging a crash full of dead bodies is pretty hard core.

I mentioned this last night, but Bali, isn't that where Naomi said they found the plane? Bali is Northwest of Australia, basically due north of the Western Australian city of Perth. To get from Sydney to LA you fly East from Sydney. The pilot said he turned back to head to Fiji. Fiji is Northeast of Australia and both the pilot and Desmond have implied that they believed they were East of Fiji.

In any event, why would the world believe a plane that was supposed to be headed in the other direction crashed near Bali, unless there was another Flight 815 as some people suggested last week, a flight that was going from Sydney to someplace West of Sydney?

Thinbluemine, I know you've got to be working on this. :)

memphish said...

When did the Others tell Locke What Kate Did? When did he make a case for her?

memphish said...

How many Tom's do we have now? Kate's Tom, Tom Friendly, Tom Sawyer. I'm embarassed that someone even from Alabama (like me) would fall for Tom Sawyer.

I liked that A Coop started with the Southern accent. I think as a conman he probably spoke in the style of his "mark." Taunting someone about his parents whose death you lead to, not really a good plan. Most people don't respond like your own "bald-headed bastard" A Coop. I wonder what the guys real name was.

I'm going to keep posting in a row until someone shows up. It's up to you all to stop me. :o)

memphish said...

So was the morality play we saw with Ben, Locke, Sawyer and A Coop a twisted version of the Sacrifice of Isaac?

Ben = God
A Coop = Abraham
Locke = Isaac
Sawyer = The ram in the thicket

God demands Isaac sacrifice his father to prove his faith. Then God provides a substitute to accomplish the sacrifice. I don't know what Alpert would be.

Ange said...

*wave* Hi memphish, I am here too, although I still processing and coming up with WAY more questions than I first posted. One thing, and maybe your MIGHTY NOTES has this...when Naomi was talking about the rescue mission from the ship, was she a part of that mission and also working for Penny, or just working for Penny (How did she know about the bodies on cam?)?

memphish said...

Ange, I'm going to rewatch soon. I think Naomi said her company was hired by this woman she never met named Penelope Widmore to find Desmond and that they were given coordinates that looked like the middle of the ocean.

memphish said...

So does Naomi's story prove that it was never going to be Penny landing on the Island no matter what Desmond did with Charlie?

Ange said...

Memphish: Not sure, but it begs a good question doesn't it.
Also (and this was mentioned a tiny bit last night), I think Sayid had a very valid point about no one actually seeing the helicopter, just hearing it. Same thing with the food drops...looks like food was dropped (ie. parachute) but no one sees/hears an actual plane.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Morning LoCos
This is a place holder.
Going to go watch the epi again.

Dennis said...

Morning Locos!

ib4uc said...

Good morning Locos. Wow, look at all the comments. Probably because it was an awesome episode, or maybe 'cause there's no more wv.

Going to catch up. It'll take all morning but will be well worth it.

ular97 said...

Jack has turned onto a faithful Other, and is only there to help Juliet get into camp. He is there to assist her in finding and getting the Mommies to be. He is a total jerk in my very low opinion of him. Anyway...the thing they are waiting to tell Kate(?) would be, she is pregnant. I am not sure if it would be Sawyers or Bens or one of the Others by artificial insemination. Lock...he has been on his own selfish missions his whole life. All he has done was to serve his own purposes and wishes including "unselfishly" donating his kidney.

ib4uc said...

One comment though. I'm really hating Jack right now. Him and his "holier than thou" attitude. What does he expect -- he's making nice with the enemy but expects the losties to still trust him and tell him everything? I think not. Kate should've kicked him in the b***s. And what's with the "No, let's not tell Kate yet" crap?

ib4uc said...

ular97... I was thinking they are not telling Kate she is pregnant also. But, how would they know? Juliet has taken here "sample" yet, has she?

capcom said...

Hi All! Happy hangover Day! Very thoughtful comments by everyone as usual.

After dreaming fitfully about last nite's ep, I have come to some conclusions:

1) Locke is such a tool!!!! OMG!!!!

2) I would have respected this ep a lot more if after Sawyer fulfilled Locke's needs of killing his dad, Locke immediately loses his legs again, in island payment for having someone killed.

3) Ben just gives me the mega-chills now for causing that, and my hat is off to TPTB for making him seem so ugly on the inside, in a mere 30 minutes of episode!

4) Ben obviously strives to get people to do something heinous, so that he can hold it over their heads, and keep them on the island, like he did with Michael, reminding him that telling The World about the island would only reveal that he killed two people (albeit Ben said that to him to keep him off the island).

5) If Naomi is an Other-plant, even in pain she could probably pull off a hoax or con...you know, the Others are "different", and are pretty resolved even when the rubber hits the painful road.

6) I hope that Rousseau is going to blow up Othertown!!!!!!! Hooyah!

7) I still find this episode very disturbing......

memphish said...

ular97 and ib4uc, I wanted Kate to slap Jack and then slap Juliet last night so badly. And why did Juliet have on so much eye shadow? It really bugged me.

During the night I was trying to concoct a theory that this wasn't Jack, but his evil twin, but I just couldn't seem to make it work. After all, if Locke could wish up A Coop, shouldn't we assume others of the LOSTies wished up other people?

Oh well, Jack remains on my bad list and I still can't abide Juliet.

capcom said...

Oh yeah, and I think (but am probably wrong) that Jack doesn't want to tell Kate that working on the radio she was talking about is a waste of time, because no transmissins can go out of the island. As is also the case for the Others communications since the Purpling. Just a guess.

But why not tell her? Because he is a DH.

ib4uc said...

memphish... I think I'm on the "I hate Jack" boat now after last night. Unless this is all one big con he's pulling.

capcom said...

LOL Memphish, I'll have to go back and check Juliet's eyeshadow! I get P.O.'d when the islanders look like they are perfectly made up (a la usually Claire). Although, she may have brought her make-up kit with her from Otherville. :o)

DiggityDirge said...

memphish said...
Hey DiggityDirge. You win my favorite comment of the night:

I thought you might get a kick out of that Memphish!

ib4uc said...

capcom said... Because he is a DH.

I got the chuckles when I read this.

Maybe Jack being this way is him getting back at Kate for sleeping with Sawyer. Very childish but effective.

memphish said...

Capcom, Jack is a designated hitter? A dumb hick?

That's the thing I can't figure out about Jack right now. If Juliet is really One Of Us, demonstrate it and get ready for this showdown that's coming when Ben sends people for the women. It seems like Jack's planning on keeping everyone in the dark just like he did in LTDA and how did that work for him? I'm just saying.

capcom said...

Heh, good point IB4UC! Payback's a b*tch, indeed. And he would be a whiney poopoo-throwing paybacker.

capcom said...

You're absolutely right Memphish. He is such a hypocrite in that way with his, "Follwo me, but I won't ever follow you" attitude. He hasn't learned a bloody thing on the island.

DH=D***Head.

memphish said...

Sorry for my denseness. I'm going to re-watch now and listen for Monster sounds that TBP said was in the Others camp.

Why aren't the Others worried about Smokey on their camping trip?

capcom said...

Are they not afraid of Smokey because he only goes to certain parts of the island? Did we assume or figure that because of the Dark Territory, or the blast map, etc.?

Ange said...

Dark UFO has screen caps of the files Locke was reading on Sawyer. Some of it is in French...why French? DANIELLE speaks French...hmmmmm. I still think that woman has way more involvement/idea about what is going on on the island that we have been shown.

ular97 said...

ib4ic
I don't know why, but for some reason I have it in my head Jack and Juliet were getting blood samples from the females on the pretense of seeing if they had abnormal "things" since being on the island. I was thinking it happend a couple of episodes ago...was I dreaming? I didn't notice Juliets eye shadow, I was just watching that smirk on her face that I have grown to hate, along with Jacks, how could you looks, he has started to give everyone.

ib4uc said...

I must say that Hurley didn't have quite the dialogue last night but when Sawyer asked him and Jin "What the hell are you doing?" and Hurley sputtered it right back at him, that was pretty funny. And, yes, I'm easily amused.

capcom said...

Yeah, Ular, FYSB hates that Jack smirk. :o)

ib4uc said...

ular97... If the others took samples from Kate when they were first captured, that was before her and Sawyer did the dirty deed. Unless she was pregnant before she got to the island.

ular97 said...

Hurley doesn't need dialogue to come across as funny. Could you imagine having a real life friend like him?

ib4uc said...

ular97... I'd love it! I wonder if he's like that in real life.

capcom said...

Thanks for the promo caps Dennis. Is that Wally Whatshisname from Retrievers Of Truth behind Marvin Candle??? :o) BTW, I tried to get his name from the site and it's no longer up, boohoo: "richerdeeperbroader.com expired on 04/18/2007 and is pending renewal or deletion."

Maybe we will get to see the monster baby next week?

ular97 said...

ib4uc I was thinking Juliet and Jack were drawing blood after they got back to the camp. Jack was telling how Juliet was trying to find out why preg. women on the island die, and why Claire didn't...and testing Sun. I am getting old and forgetful so maybe I have it all wrong in my brain. Maybe a trip to "The Island" would repair my loss of memory, wrinkles, sags and bags. :=O

capcom said...

The Wilson Stick is funny. I didn't know what you all were talking aobut last night until I just looked at the promo caps. :-D LOL our Wilson Hatch, as well.

Jason said...

Unbelievable show. Some thoughts:

1. If the producers said it's not purgatory, they are messing with us. Maybe in the end it will be something else. The real truth is buried behind the smoke and mirrors. There are many things to support purgatory and to refute it. A) plane crash and Cooper's story obviously support purgatory. Also, the pregnancy issue. Women cannot get pregnant and have babies because that would go against how one arrives in purgatory. Claire could have the baby because she arrived in purgatory already pregnant. B) the one refute is clearly the others, how did they get there? The backstory on Juliet is all we have, and so far it doesn't show anything close to her dying before arriving on the island – unless that drink she had kills her.

2. I don't think Richard is against Ben. I think it is all part of Ben's manipulation. Ben talks of Locke removing his burden. Richard certainly helps that. Cooper dying removed Locke's burden, but he didn't have to kill him – he just had to die.

3. Richard's discussion with Locke about "more important things" on the island could be true, or just part of Ben's manipulation. It plays into Locke's views of faith in the island. But I think there are higher things on the island. Perhaps dabbling in them allows Ben to keep the Others away from the more important things.

4. Naomi as an Other isn't necessarily true (though it could be). She told Patchy that she was not alone. But in her recount to Des and Sayid she keeps saying "we." Clearly she refers to Penny's operation to find Desmond. I think she also was not alone on the helicopter.

5. Penny's comment earlier that "with enough money, you can find anything." Also, with enough money, you could cover up a plane crash. You could also get "The Man From Tallahassee." More refutes to the Purgatory theory.

6. If they are in Purgatory, is Penny also there? She is looking for Desmond and they "saw" a signal – the sky turning purple – and that is the basis for her rescue mission. Either she knew what happened to Desmond or they are not in purgatory. How could something occur in purgatory and be seen in the real world? Or is Penny an Avatar of purgatory (ala the monk, the Ring lady, Richard perhaps)?

7. I thought it was odd that when Cooper bit Locke he was starting to discuss where they were. It seemed as if Ben didn't want Cooper to discuss this any further.

TheBookPolice said...

jason - Cooper seemed...I don't know, more feral on the Island. Like there was something there that was affecting him. Knocking him back to a more animalistic state. He didn't seem as "in-control" as he usually did in the flashbacks.

Anyone see that episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where the whole ship's crew starts de-evolving?

capcom said...

Good points Jason, especially the purgatory points. How could someone get preg in purgatory?? And how could Penny's polar team see the event if they are in purgatory?? Good Qs! I think also, at least from what little we saw, that Richard was only playing the goodcop to Ben's badcop to trick Mr.Youcantrickme-Locke, and is not necessarily playing against Ben.

capcom said...

Interesting TBP. Or, being tied up for days, being knocked around, and having to probably poop in his pants (not being allowed the courtesy to use the restroom perhaps) just brought out the very worst in Cooper. :o)

TheBookPolice said...

As for my comment last night about the Monster-noise...I'm pretty sure it's just wildlife that has a similarly staccato call.

Ange said...

jason said...7. I thought it was odd that when Cooper bit Locke he was starting to discuss where they were. It seemed as if Ben didn't want Cooper to discuss this any further.

I thought that too. In one breath Ben said something like "Don't get to close" while Tom was at the ready with a stun gun. Then in the next he said to go ahead and take the gag off. He knew Cooper would do something...

What could "More improtant things" be?:
1. Archeological dig for some lost civilization (I remember Atlantis being brought up months and seasons ago)?
2. Mining for whatever the slaves were sent there for?
3. Utopian society?
4. Telepathy or some sort of mental ability (room 23 and Walt's powers)?

ular97 said...

I am not sure anyone in the Others would truly go against Ben. We have thought someone was, in the end it was a ruse or a manipulation. That is one reason I think Jack is now Other, I don't see him really going against Ben or Juliet, just helping cover up for them. He didn't come back and ask a group to go attack or tail the the Others; or start to make plans on how to get off the island...he came back and acted as if he was Lord and King...again... with Queen Juliet. If Kate or someone doesn't soon give Juliet a black eye my tv is going to be broken, I am going to throw something at Juliet myself, then bonk Jack and Lock on the head and see if they will come to their senses.

capcom said...

Good questions about the important things Ange! I might vote for #3, which might be, getting back to the original altruistic plans of the DI, before everything went to heckinnahandbasket.

I was also thinking, since Cindy seems to be an Other at this point (until further info is given) I bet that she was set up to get involved with Gary Troup, if he still has any significance to the Lost story, other than for ABC to make more money by selling a Lost-related book. If the plane crash turned out to merely be a way to kill Troup before he revealed the Equation, I might get a little ticked off. :o)

InEnglandAndLost said...

anyone got any flickr pics from the next promo?

maven said...

Good Morning the Morning After!
Trying to play catchup with all your great comments...bbl

Purgatory!!?? Ugh!

capcom said...

See Dennis' above, InEngland. :-)

InEnglandAndLost said...

Thanks Capcom!!!!!

JGZ350 said...

Good Morning Locos, a tremendous Thursday to you-

I know I have been MIA as of late, but dealing with my office move and then the corp's office move has not given me any time to continue my studies in Lostology. I just got back in town and had the extreme pleasure of watching a fantastic episode of LOST last night. I didn't know the TPTB had been hyping this episode so much, but I think it was one of the better one's of S3.

Great comments everyone, and yes, being apart of this fantastic LOST community is a must if you are really into LOST. Thanks for all of your valuable input everyone!

What is up memphish? What was up with your hubby watching LOST with you last night? It sounded like he was a big time distraction for you. I only watch LOST with my boys. My wife thinks I'm LOST because I'm so into LOST. I've invited her to watch it with me, but she would rather watch some crapola on the lifetime television channel. She just doesn't get it. I think she is the one who is LOST!

Ange said...

capcom said... If the plane crash turned out to merely be a way to kill Troup before he revealed the Equation, I might get a little ticked off. :o)

No might about it here, if that were the case, I would be mad!

It does seem that Cindy is an official Other. Either that or she got schooled very quickly on being a freaky-weirdo and on the rules to being an Other. What with the "coming to watch" and always having those kids in tow...even to an EXECUTION. I would say that you are right on there with her being set up with Gary Troup (Gosh, Bad Twin was awful wasn't it!).

So it begs the question: How many other "real world" others are there manipulating events toward/before the crash?

memphish said...

I think Cindy was a pre-Island Other who was tasked to get Gary Troup off Hanso's case. Remember in TLE how he was supposed to be writing a book on Hanso and getting to the bottom of the Valenzetti thing.

JGZ350 said...

Thanks for no WV admin, and also Happy belated TLE anniversary! What a fantastic LOST community that was born because of TLE.

capcom said...

Well JGZ, you will just have to go to summer-school to complete your Lostology degree on time! :-)

Lifetime channel? Ugh, I'm even female and I don't like that channel. Too much lying, dying, and crying for me.

memphish said...

Hey jgz350! Hubby was a definite distraction. I enjoyed it so much more rewatching it just now, but it's definitely a dark, intense episode.

My favorite part was the scene between Locke and Rousseau. It was reminiscent of the old Locke and Eko scenes.

My least favorite is reactionary Jack.

Jason said...

I think Cooper was acting "Feral" because he thought he was in hell or purgatory and thought nothing would happen to him or he acted that way just to see what would happen to him.

Also, if it isn't purgatory the only explanations I could see is that the plane crash was covered up, or there is some kind of time shift on the island, both of which everyone has discussed and thought about here before.

When Naomi was discussing the island not there then appearing, I definelty got a "Bermuda Triangle" feeling. And teh Bermuda Trangle stories/myths/legends definetly deal with time disparities.

memphish said...

Someone up above mentioned Ben cutting A Coop off in the beginning when he was going to posit that he was in hell. Why would he do that?

Now for the Kate is a Mole section of my post. Did Kate leave Sawyer's tent because she is so relationally challenged or something else? Why didn't she notice Hurley and Jin or ever mention that Sawyer was gone for an entire day?

Apparently it took the Others 4 days to get to Camp #1. 8 days ago they were leaving in the morning and Locke helps Cindy with her tent 3 days ago. That's a long walk carrying a bookcase.

This episode makes me think that the Others do control Smokey because they didn't seem concerned about him on their journey and Locke and Sawyer didn't encounter him while they were in the Dark Territory.

Is Sayid digging a new latrine?

Administrator said...

I'm generally opposed to any Purgatory or Hell theory (How many times to Damon & Carlton have to say "They are not in Purgatory" before we will believe them?) but I just looked at the Wikipedia entry for "Limbo" and thought I'd share an interesting quote.

"The "Limbo of Children" refers to a permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, without having committed any personal sins, but without having been freed from original sin."

This interested me not because any of the Losties actually suffered a physical death in infancy. Rather, it seems that each of them suffered a significant blow in early childhood that robbed them of their innoncence. Their fate was, in a sense, sealed by the sins of another. Their souls were "killed" before they had developed the maturity to defend themselves.

Who can tell me the difference between Limbo & Purgatory? Neither of those really fit my personal understanding of the Bible so I haven't studied them much. Is it possible that the creators are proposing that the Losties are in some sort of "after-life" state besides Purgatory?

Does anyone remember if Damon & Carlton have categorically denied that the Losties are dead? Could they be in comas?

TheBookPolice said...

Doc's up.

Ange said...

jason said...I think Cooper was acting "Feral" because he thought he was in hell or purgatory and thought nothing would happen to him

ABSOLUTELY! He totally thought that the car crash had killed him.

Naomi said something like the cluods cleared and there was the island. Are we to think the clouds literally clearing let them see the island, or were these some sort of "special" clouds that block the island?

memphish said...

Maybe those "special" clouds are what's blocking the sat phone?

ular97 said...

As I recall, in one of the Lost magazines in Q an A it stated "no purgatory or hell", but not that they were not all dead. It just leaves you to assume without being specfic on the point of death that they are alive someplace, you know about assuming on Lost however.

Ange said...

LOL memphish...even plain regular clouds mess up my cell service nevermind special ones and a sattelite phone;).

memphish said...

TBP, I listened for the sounds and agree it was probably a bird, but during the scene where the Others are packing up there is a chittering sound similar to the Monster.

Turning the Abraham and Isaac story further on its head, I remembered that an angel stopped Abraham and pointed out the substitute. So that's who Alpert was. In the OT though, Abraham and Isaac went alone to the site of the sacrifice and left those who had traveled with them behind. No audience like Ben created for Locke. Also in the OT, the animal sacrificed had to be unblemished. A Coop certainly doesn't meet that standard physically or spiritually.

Ange said...

Thought: It is not going to be this easy to figure out the "thing" that is going on. They have signed on for a 4th season. If it is all figured out to be hell, or purgatory (limbo, etc..) then we have no where to go next season, unless they delve into the why. Also, if it is purgatory I am so crying shenanagins!

Sayid'sgirl said...

ange I vote for number 3 Utopian Society also.
Who is it that they think John Locke is? Could it be Jacob? John is another name for Jacob.
If the box is a metaphor then could Cooper maybe be a metaphor also? For want I dont't know.
Cooper tells Locke you really haven't figured it out yet, I really don't want to say this but maybe Locke is still having his sweat lodge dream. I don't really believe that though.
I found it odd that Cooper bit Locke but not Sawyer. Maybe Sawyer was suppose to be the one to ask how he got there. I think Sawyer was suppose to be the one to kill Cooper all a long not Locke.
Cooper's story seemed a little ala Alias to me. He got run off the road then he was quickly picked up by paramedics and stuffed into an ambulance while someone smiling at him pops an IV in his arm and then black....

capcom said...

They were special nanite clouds. :o)

Administrator said...

jgz350,
Re: TLE anniversary.
Can you believe it's been a whole year?! I was just looking back over the May Archives and it brought back some serious memories. Anyone ever hear from bellyofdesire any more? :)

capcom said...

Oh, and interesting info about limbo Admin. And was Charlie unknowingly saving Aaron from this children's limbo, by obsessing about his baptism?

Doesn't Dante mention Limbo in his poem(s)?

memphish said...

I noticed that Sayid still has a band-aid on his bullet wound.

So Locke had to know his dad was dead to stop being emotionally crippled. Was that why Alpert and Ben insisted he needed to die?

I was hoping A Coop might have recognized the paramedic like it was Alpert or something, but no.

Has anyone anagrammed the rest of Cooper's aliases? Ted McClarren (sp?), Lewis Jackson, Tom Sawyer.

Back in Outlaws (Ep 1.16) Hibbs told Sawyer that it was "Frank" Sawyer that ran the con on his parents. Of course, he was lying and just wanted Frank Duckett dead.

Jason said...

Maybe it wasn't a big deal for the Others (and specifically the children) to watch Locke kill Cooper because Cooper isn't real. He is on the island, but isn't a real human being. Hurly has seen his psych ward roomate, Jack his father, Kate the horse and her dad, on the island. And as far as we know, they were not "real." Cooper could have fallen into that same category.

If it is Utopian, than it is a twisted one. Cause Ben runs it more like a cult.

Ange said...

ular97 said...Anyway...the thing they are waiting to tell Kate(?) would be, she is pregnant

Okay so Kate took a pregnancy test off the island. Right before she freaked out from her engagement and took off. It was negative, but maybe a false negative ("I almost had a baby," says Kate)? Would that time frame work out? Maybe she WAS pregnmant before she got to the island, and Juliet and Jack do know this per the blood taken when Kate was kidnapped.

Sayid'sgirl said...

jason
Yes Ben does run it like a cult. I think some of the others what to get back to their roots of a Utopian Society.

memphish said...

This woman looks like she's wearing Dorothy's dress from The Wizard of Oz.

Sayid'sgirl said...

What does killing your father have to do with showing a gesture of free will? I can see how that can show your commitment but free will?

scoutpost said...

MOrning LoCo's! Lordy I can't keep up with the comments. Almost done....

capcom said...

Right Sayidsgirl, and what part of Utopia is reflected in a public execution of someone, just because they are in the way of your personal progress? No wonder Jules wants Ben dead...for the sake of all the future people that Ben will kill, hurt, destroy, etc.

Ben thinks that he is a "good guy". I think that he is living on Opposite Talk Island.

Dennis said...

memphish said... Capcom, Jack is a designated hitter? A dumb hick?

Dharma Hippie?


capcom said... Is that Wally Whatshisname from Retrievers Of Truth behind Marvin Candle??? :o) BTW, I tried to get his name from the site and it's no longer up, boohoo: "richerdeeperbroader.com expired on 04/18/2007 and is pending renewal or deletion."

Wally Bole. You can still see him on Mandrake Wig's Flickr account.

That sucks about RDB.com. I hope someone has a mirror of that somewhere.


maven said... Purgatory!!?? Ugh!

:)

Purgatory. Time Travel. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.


Sayid'sgirl said... Who is it that they think John Locke is? Could it be Jacob? John is another name for Jacob.

Maybe they think he is the "Chosen One", like Neo in the Matrix.

Jason said...

Sayid'sgirl - I think Locke is burdened and controlled by Cooper. "Getting rid" of him or "killing" him removes that burden and allows Locke to have free will and free to make decisions without Cooper. (I put those actions in "" because I think Cooper was metaphorical and not real thus he wasn't really killing him. Ben to Locke: "The box is a metaphor."

memphish said...

Capcom, I think you're on the right track there with the Opposite Talk stuff. The finale title refers to a book where everything is backwards and you have to walk away from what you want to go to to get to it. How confusing was that sentence?

memphish said...

Dennis said: Purgatory. Time Travel. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

ROFLMAO. Dennis are you wearing a short sleeved yellow dress shirt today?

capcom said...

Really Memphish?! I'll have to go check out the ep title, and then the book! ((fine, more books for us to read this summer, didn't someone sugjest that as our summer/fall/winterbreak assignment?)) :o)

As for the free will of Locke not having an alive Cooper hanging over his head, I hope that the tremendous guilt of making someone else kill someone for him, haunts Locke to pieces for the rest of his life! :-p

scoutpost said...

dennis said...
Maybe they think he is the "Chosen One", like Neo in the Matrix.

That's the feeling I get. Now whether or not Ben really believes that, I don't know. I think maybe they are looking for a "chosen one" type and Ben is just setting Locke up as a figure head while Ben still runs the show. I hate how Locke still bought into the "your special" lie. What a sucker. This is why I actually like Ben (although last night he was a bit too creepy/evil)- because I'm tired of the Losties being the dupes, victims and idiots. Seriously- Sayid and Hurley are about the only ones on the island with their head screwed on straight. BTW-What the heck was Sayid digging last night?

capcom said...

Sheesh, ignore typos puhleeeeeeeze!

scoutpost said...

You know- yes it was despicable for Locke to con Sawyer into killing A Coop- but Sawyer had a right to know...assuming that Tom Sawyer=Frank Sawyer (like memphish brought out). I will freak if Sawyer killed the wrong man-again.
And in my opinion- A Coop was such a SOB that I don't care who killed him or what the motive was- I'm just glad someone killed him. I only wish it had been slower and more painful.

scoutpost said...

no kidding capcom- too bad blogger can't fix the typos.

capcom said...

Yeah, the WVs are gone, but not the typos and brain-burps!

Erich said...

Hey all!

Just wanted to let those who care know that our new post is up. I'll be back later to catch up on what I'm sure is some great discussion (about this great episode).

scoutpost said...

I don't think the timing would work for Kate being preggers when she got to the island. I don't know the timeline of when she was married- but in between that and the plane crash she had to go to Australia, work on the farm of that one armed gentleman, and grow her hair back from that awful haircut she had in "I Do".

2costa said...

i was thinking that richard alpert was just part of bens mind f*ck with giving locke the red sawyer folder, but this picture of richard has me thinking that he may indeed be trying to take out ben, he could be sawyers brother in this

pichttp://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/Rjld1Jsh3rI/AAAAAAAAE7g/4X0MkJRl2zM/s1600-h/13.jpg

, perhaps he is one of the few that were born on the island. Bens plan has been killing all the people that were free to leave ethan, collen(as evidenced by her using the sub to ambush sun), pickett was a higher up to, as well as klugh. I am thinking that richard resents ben trying to strand everyone. Julliette is obviously only privy to the manilla folders and not the red ones, cause if she was she would have already known that jin was sterile and not left that message for ben. Thats why ben is so adamant about the breeding so he can totally shut down the island from the outside world.

2costa said...

http://bp0.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/Rjld1Jsh3rI/AAAAAAAAE7g/4X0MkJRl2zM/s1600-h/13.jpg


richard opic

2costa said...

So what is jack not saying that kate is preggo or he is sleeping with julliette. Who gave locke the tape of julliette... richard?

scoutpost said...

Ew- I just looked at that screencap of the "eerie woman" that memphish linked- it does look like a Dorothy dress- it looks like Juliet in a Dorothy dress. I can't wait to hear how they explain that one.

2costa said...

what do u all think off the richard pic with long hair and stubble???link above
good riddance word verification

maven said...

Can't keep up with you guys!

Here's just some gut observations:
1. When Cooper asks Locke "Don't you know where we are?": Is Cooper in what he thinks is Hell. I'm trying to reconcile the Purgatory theory (which TPTB constantly deny). Maybe being drugged and transported to this island and basically tortured, Cooper thinks it must be Hell and he's dead too.
2. Sawyerisms and Cooperisms!
3. When Ben tells Locke that maybe he should say goodbye to Kate when they're leaving Otherville: Why didn't Ben want Locke to say goodbye to Sayid?
4. When Charlie is in the "kitchen" gathering stuff in the suitcase: Seems that their supplies are running low.
5. Naomi and Cooper's story about finding the 815 wreckage is the same.
6. What's Rousseau going to blow up. As usual, she doesn't react to hearing someone behind that door, and doesn't ask any questions. Same for Locke...just take the dynamite, but it's unstable.
7. Agreed Richard Alpert is playing Locke with Ben, getting him to do what Ben wants.
8. Re the Sawyer/Cooper scene: Cooper believes he is in Hell. What else could it be? He believed Locke died in the plane crash, and there he is! Must be hell (it's even hot there).
9. Locke thanks Sawyer: Very similar to Patchy thanking Locke for pushing him thru sonic fence.
10. Jack: You have some 'splaining to do! You better have an overall plan, because we don't like you right now!
11. At least Locke let Sawyer in on the Others plan.

All in all, an episode that really moved the story along! (Even though not in the direction we would want!)

scoutpost said...

2costa- I'm up in the air about Richard's loyalties at this point, but he definitely could be trying to take Ben down. That screen cap is weird isn't it. When did Richard have long hair?

Did ya'll read Doc yet? I found the first paragraph funny- especially since he mentions *attn: Passafist and Goog*, Gillian Flynn.

scoutpost said...

maven said...
All in all, an episode that really moved the story along! (Even though not in the direction we would want!)

Yeah really- is that a blessing or a curse?!

Ange said...

Okay, just had lunch with a bunch of Losties...thoughts were maybe 2 Bens. I mentioned this last night (I think) although I am not sure if I just thought it or what, but it might fit in with the Bad Twin thing. Historically the two people living one life has been a theme in stories/literature (Dean Koontz even went there with twins who were so intertwined they had no idea they were two people). So here is why:
*Ben last night seemed maniacally evil (like with the rabbit as well). Kinda different than the methodically evil manipulating Ben that we usually see.
*Ben got out of his chair way too easily. Maybe one Ben can walk and one cannot.
*Saying it is because of Locke, that will help perpetuate the illusion that Lock is special somehow.

I can't really give you any reasons for why this would be necessary but it is something to think about.

2costa said...

maybe we are looking at this from the wrong angle. It seems convinient that the wreckage of 815 is buried under sea, a video ala alien autopsy or the fake space landing(jk) that couldnt be put under much scrutiny. I almost tend to beleive that naomi being fake and cooper having the same story being a hoax is the red herring. Maybe the underwater 815 was meant more for a lesson for people on the outside world, cooper was much more likely to beleive he was in hell since he beleived locke was dead. Or there is the other angle that smokey can assume anyone form as in eko's brother and jacks dad or the black horse and in that respect it is the ultimate therapy role playing tool. Sort of like the holodeck on startrek...Locke is naive to think he doesnt have blood on his hands for boone and cooper, maybe it is sawyer that they want. I think BEn was faking being in the wheelchair to make locke feel special and needed, cause if he were really only getting better cause of locke then he wouldnt be so quick to ditch him...

capcom said...

Ange, that would explain why Ben thinks he is good and does not lie....the other Ben is the one that lies and kills.

Bette Davis did some great bad-twin-kills-good-twin-and-lives-dead-twin's-life roles! Two movies like that I think.

2costa said...

I also like the "apocolpse now" nod to sawyer being martin sheen with the blade and the bare feet. Or even Locke and sawyer teaming up to be to do the job sheen did alon, I agree Ange that the "Bad Twin" thing is gonna come back up

Ange said...

Andre: I completely agree about the video thing. I have been saying thaty since last night with the whole, "They saw the bodies with underwater cameras, " thing. WAY too convenient and easy to manipulate. I would love to see that footage,

Maven brings up a good point. Cooper and Naomi did have the same story about the crash.

Sayid'sgirl said...

jason
Yes I made that same comment up there somewhere. That if the box is metaphor maybe Cooper is too.
I was sure what he was a metaphor for. So you think he's a metaphor for free will. I can go with that.
Dennis
So Locke= Neo Ok I can go with that to. I liked the Matrix.
I have to post in bits and pieces cause by the time I read everything and post then there's a dozen more posts to read and I feel most my responses are a little late.

scoutpost said...

Yeah, but I don't understand why it is such a big deal that Coop and Naomi have the same 815 story. Coop knows it from the news, Naomi could know it from the news, or if she's an Other, that's the story she knows to tell. Maybe I'm just missing it.

I am curious though about them finding the wreckage near Bali- why would the plane have been near Bali? The survivors families should have something to say about that.

maven said...

Scoutpost: I think the significance that Naomi and Cooper have the same plane crash story is that it was the one given to the news and Cooper just confirmed it. Kinda proves that Naomi was not lying (at least re the plane crash).

Sayid'sgirl said...

Ok that should say I wasn't sure (not was) what he was a metaphor for.
Scoutpost
I think Sawyer had a right to know who he was but I also think he had a right to walk away if he chose to. He shouldn't have been locked in the brig without any choices. I don't know which was more disturbing Ben clubbing Cooper with his cane or Locke quietly waiting for Sawyer to kill Cooper. Or the fact Sawyer was high jacked to kill him. He seemed so upset afterward.
Oh and to me it appeared that Richard was D.I.

Ange said...

scoutpost: Them knowing the same story shows that it was indeed on the news or in other real world sources.

For all we/The Losties know Naomi could have been completely making the crash story up.

Now we know that at least one other person has heard the same thing. So unless they are both plants, the crash story is what the world thinks.

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