Here's your tagline: Sun discovers the identity of her unborn child's father after being examined by Juliet. Meanwhile, Desmond allows an unlikely foe to help save the life of a mysterious new island inhabitant. Informal Poll: Who's the Daddy?
Wednesday, April 25, 2007
D.O.C. - Season 3, Episode 18
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 548 Newer› Newest»I forgot to add, Jin was in the Army. He says it and his Army picture is at his dad's house. Do all Korean men have to serve in the Army? That's another military man on the Island.
Now that we know who Sun's Baby's Daddy is, who is Jin's daddy? A Korean version of Christian Shephard? And will it matter?
my only question is patchy being a live just a long con to make the island healing power seem that much stronger, would others come back to life if they were not buried so fast. If mikhail lived through that then kelvin is definetly still alive. Or did he use an alka seltzer and some blood squibs to shoot out of his ears as part of bens long con. My theory before that kugh was still alive too seems to be in play still. She had mikhail shoot her so that she wouldnt catch a real bullet from the 815'ers. Did anyone catch if locke wanted sawyer to kill ben or The man from tallahasee?
Oi, good comments last night. Here's a few thoughts:
1. I still don't think there is any way that Flight 815 could have been intentionally trying to land on the island. It would need a huge runway in a large open space, which just doesn't seem to be available on the island.
2. Just a point: when Colleen and Pickett both died, they were technically not on the island. Colleen was on the boat and was brought back to 'Alcatraz,' and Pickett died on 'Alcatraz' as well. This doesn't explain the other deaths on the island, though.t
3. Totally off the wall, but what if there were two patchies? I don't think this is true, and it doesn't explain the dried blood on his face. One was a medic, the other was in communications... twins!
4. Maybe the Others planned all along for Kate and Sawyer to have sex in the bear cage. Maybe they want Kate to get pregnant so they can continue their research, and that's why they put Kate and Sawyer together.
To be clear, I don't believe anyone is coming "back" from the dead. Either Patchy didn't die in the first place, or it's someone else.
Good morning Locos. Great comments by everyone. So much is going on it's hard to keep it all straight.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I have one thought... Juliet tells Jack and Kate that she implanted Claire to save her and her baby. But last night she tells Sun that if she got pregnant off the island, she should be OK. Totally contradicting.
Sun will tell Kate, and Juliet's secret is out. A tip to Juliet -- be afraid, be very afraid.
Good morning, Losties!
One thought I had this morning was that Naomi seemed to really know the specifics of the crash of 815. I don't know that I would remember that much about a crash, unless I had been specifically told about it. Is it possible that she knew that 815 was tied to the island? When Des went back and told his friend all about the island, did he mention 815, thus leaving the info for Penny to discover?
Maven said, "13. The Others should bottle their sperm counts and sell them to infertile women around the world. They'd make a ton of money!"
LOL! I love it!!!
ib4uc, Juliet didn't tell Kate and Jack that she implanted her to save her:
Juliet: Claire's immune system is turning on her, she's having a latent reaction to a medication in her bloodstream.
She lied.
Melissa_Lossa said... I don't know that I would remember that much about a crash, unless I had been specifically told about it.
Whenever a plane crash happens, the media spends weeks talking about it and telling the stories of everyone who died on it. Just like the Virginia Tech shooting. We all know about it and I even know details about it through the media and I doubt I will ever forget them.
I think Naomi remembers the media she saw.
Melissa_lossa said…Is it possible that the Losties did not board the flight 815 that they thought they did?
Wow, this is an incredibly valid point. We know a plan crashed, we saw it happen now several times. But yeah, they could have been told they were on flight 815, but really have gotten on a different flight. I also like what dennis said about the whole thing being an Other cover-up. That makes a lot of sense.
scoutpost said…what did Juliet say about the sample from Austen- had she gotten it or not? Maybe they are wondering if Kate is pregnant, maybe they did set that up after all. Ange you were right?!
Hehehehe! I am wondering about the sample too though. What kind of sample, blood, urine, WHAT? And how is she going to get this “sample” will she just ask for it, do a covert thing like with Claire (right on memphish)?
RE: Naomi…well She is the actress that played an incredibly hoochie woman on Las Vegas (I don’t watch, hubby does) and all I can think of is her skimpy bedazzled weirdness when I look at her.
Finally, if women who become pregnant off of the island can carry to term (IE Claire), then Ben's mother must have gotten preganant off of the Island, if we believe his story about being born on the island.
Sorry about the long post, my fingers wouldn't stop today.
carissa - I guess you're right. Maybe I'm having trouble remembering that it's only been a couple of months on the show, as opposed to the three years that it's been for us. She just seemed to be very well-informed to me.
carissa... I guess I should clarify what I was thinking:
Juliet said Claire was injected with serum to save her and the baby, even though Claire conceived off the island.
She then turns around and tells Sun that if the baby was conceived off the island, she should be OK. Reading between the lines, I took this as Sun wouldn't need the serum if she conceived off the island.
If Sun tells the losties what Juliet told them, don't you think they would go "um, that's totally different from what she told us earlier".
It's so hard to put in writing what I'm thinking sometimes.
ib4uc - I hear ya. There's a discrepancy there.
I don't know - Claire was the first mother Juliette had access to that had conceived off the island. It's possible that they gave her the same serum that they were testing on island mothers, only to discover that she didn't need it anyway. Maybe Juliette's idea is that Claire is reacting to the serum simply because she didn't need it.
Anyway, Juliette claims that Claire was fine after she counter acted the serum she was given - it was never Claire's pregnancy that made her sick. So if Sun had conceived off the island and not had the serum, she should be fine.
Does that make sense?
maven said: 3. Finally, Sun asks tons of questions! But then wimps out at the end and doesn't follow Juliet back into the Med. Station.
I am starting to like the others. primarily ben and Jules because they are the best manipulators i have ever seen. Juliet made it seem like it was Suns idea to wait outside.
ib4uc said... If Sun tells the losties what Juliet told them, don't you think they would go "um, that's totally different from what she told us earlier".
I agree. It would be a big difference. I only hope Sun does talk about it. One thing that infuriates me on this show is that they Losties don't communicate with each other! (excpet for last night where Charlie conveniently knows about Mikhail. Hum... maybe the Losties are starting to realize th emore information shared the better!)
Personally, if I were Sun, and Juliet said that she was going back inside alone, alarms would go off - what is she up to? That's why I expected Juliet to turn around after making her recording to find Sun standing there. I thought Sun was finally after some answers.
Another interesting statement was Desmond telling Charlie that he killed more of them than they have of you.
melissa_lossa, good points. It would make sense that Juliet wouldn't know if Claire would need the serum or not and that when it was tried it failed. And since Claire gave birth just fine, then it would be even clearer that women who get pregnant off island are okay. Remember Juliet wanted to take a woman off island to test and Ben wouldn't let her? Maybe now she has her answer.
Another thought--Juliet said that Ethan's kidnapping Claire wasn't her idea. Maybe she didn't want to inject her with the serum in the first place and Ethan just took it upon himself to inject her. Of course, Juliet could have been lying about Ethan.
Could it be that even though the men on the island have a higher sperm count that something's wrong with the DNA contained in the sperm? It's odd that the men are more fertile and then women are okay with the babies until the second trimester. Maybe something's genetically off in the sperm.
carissa: I completely agree with your feelings about information sharing. I hated Niki and Paulo for that.
bigdog: I have to say I agree with you about Sun and her wimp out. Although, I have a feeling that maybe she is a lot more savvy than we give her credit for. I am wondering if she did follow her back into the hatch, but we just haven't been shown this yet. Also, I think Sun is suspicious about Juliet. She is happy yes, about learning about Jin, but seriously, I think she may have a WTF moment soon...she started doubting Jack, she is more with it than we are being shown.
Also, Patchy and his fight skills. Hmmm military training yes, but Juliet got traind to fight by someone, could it be Patchy?
bigdog said... Another interesting statement was Desmond telling Charlie that he killed more of them than they have of you.
That made me wonder how Desmond sees himself. It's like he doesn't see himself as one of the Losties and not as one of the Others. That would make sense since he was never "with" either group. Yet, has he chosen a loyalty? At least he is trying to save Charlie all the time, so for right now, I see him with the Losties.
Do you think when he finally meets the Others they'll tempt him with seeing Penny again like they're tempting Juliet with her sister?
Carissa, you're Desmond point relates back to Locke's vision in FI as well. He was taking care of himself.
ange - I do think that Sun is a lot smarter than most on the island. she is after all the daughter of the most powerful family in Korea. All of her flashbacks show her doing something very strong as if she knows she has a lot of power.
carissa- I hope ben doesnt have penny in the box too. sometimes i actually forget that desmond wasnt on the plane.
memphish, wow! Good catch. I hadn't thought of that.
bigdog, Uh-oh... Are we going to need a new song? Penny in a Box? :-D
I think Des is a wild card in every sense - the losties include him in their community, but he seems to be something of an outsider, and I still don't think that the Others really know much about him. Whatever they may have known or not known about Kelvin and the Swan, I think Des has always been a mystery.
Good point, memphish, about Locke's vision. Desmond was handling things on his own, and I think that he still is.
Good Morning LoCos
Maybe time does move faster on the island that's why they heal faster and why a 26 year old woman's womb looked like one of a woman in her 70's.
But that doesn't explain why they don't seem to age outwardly.
Oh and BTW 90 days in real time would be a Monday and 91 days which I think is when I think Juliet makes her recording to Ben would be a Tuesday not a Saturday.
hey a good morning to all
couple of thoughts for the episode. didn't the wreckage get sucked into the ocean? it could have made its way out to sea and then found right?
i liked seeing charlie wanting to go all jin on patchy. wish he could have gotten on good slug in.
and about sun and the other preg women and abortion. i think that for the other (what was the number 8?) women they either wanted to try or wanted off the island in the worst way. either way knowing the risk reward for their choice. because of that i think abortion was never an issue. plus the others seem very old testament. and i'm sure if a woman would elect to terminate the baby then i don't think the sheriff would be too kind. as for Sun this is something that she and Jin have been wanting. which opens up an opportunity for juliet to find a cure and get off the island
codysmom said
"Ms. Klugh's death also staged? The ones who have stayed dead (that we know of) are the ones killed by our losties (Goodwin, Ethan, Colleen)?"
maybe this is do to the fact that they weren't treated like naomi and given the chance to heal. like with patchy they just left him there allowing him to have time to heal.
Libby, Anna, and Coleen died from only single wounds. but to that i would say that their wounds were never cleaned and treated. like naomi who had the branch pulled out the wound needs the foreign object out in order to heal. oh and thats why the pregnant women die! the 9 month gestation is too long! the baby doesn't get out in time and perhaps the island sees it as an infection! weird.
Was patchy running to the flare or running from someone? Was this the other way he was talking about before he shot klug? And since they are such good shots with a gun he could have given her a flesh wound and be looking for her.
desmond is obviously the key to any rescue. if the world thinks flight 815 went down with no survivors, no one would be looking for anyone on the plane. but penny would still be looking for desmond.
Something that dawned on me this morning (and reinforced by memphish's very valid point about Sun's period)..... Sun and Jin were fighting for pretty much the duration of the building of the second raft. That was right around the time Sun would have conceived.
The LOST podcast spoiler that referred to "D.O.C." stated that the father could be Jae, Jin, or a mystery person. And we know that Sun's a pretty good liar.
2 + 2 = Jin's not the daddy?
The whole pregnancy issue is getting confusing. If a 20-something womb looks like a 70-year-old, I don't think the woman could get pregnant in the first place. There are some medical types around here. Maybe they could clarify it.
Could it be then that the insertion of the foreign object, i.e. the fetus, is what begins the rapid womb aging process? Even so, I don't understand why the woman and not just the fetus would die from that.
Some have hypothsized that a chemo type thing is going on, but why would it take 20 weeks to kill the woman, and does she deteriorate like I'd think a chemo patient would or is it rapid or a single crisis?
I wonder if they've tried to preform C-sections at 20 weeks to save both the woman and the neo-nate. Real world science has saved at least one 22 week old preemie. Couldn't the healing powers of the Island push that back 2 more weeks?
if the womb is growing faster doesnt that mean that the baby is growing faster as well?
I have no idea when Sun's period would be and have no idea how you'd figure that out and who's to say she was regular.
But according to Juliet (and yes I know she lies) Sun concieved around the 53rd day they were on the island which would be right after they brought the tailies back.
Exactly Sayid's Girl and that was 48 days on-Island. In my world, even with the stress of a plane crash and a marriage heading south that would be extremely late.
It would make sense it it was when they reunited with the Tailies - that was when Sun and Jin reconciled and started getting it on. Remember Hurley's thumbs up?
Good Morning Locos!
I won't be around much today but I wanted to stop in and say hi!
memphish said... Wow! Good stuff after I went to bed. Unfortunately, I don't have much time this morning, so I'm going to hit and run post and trust the rest of you to figure it all out by the time I get back this afternoon. Sorry for the length. 1. I can't believe Scoutpost, Dennis and Maven didn't figure everything out last night. :)
I thought we did :)
ib4uc said... Good morning Locos. Great comments by everyone. So much is going on it's hard to keep it all straight. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have one thought... Juliet tells Jack and Kate that she implanted Claire to save her and her baby. But last night she tells Sun that if she got pregnant off the island, she should be OK. Totally contradicting.
I think Juliet was saying that Claire got sick because she was getting injections, and now she was suffering from withdrawal symptoms. We know now that this was just a lie. But, Sun hasn't been getting any injections, so she should be fine.
BTW, how long until Claire is pregnant again with Charlie's baby?
Ange said... Melissa_lossa said…Is it possible that the Losties did not board the flight 815 that they thought they did? Wow, this is an incredibly valid point. We know a plan crashed, we saw it happen now several times. But yeah, they could have been told they were on flight 815, but really have gotten on a different flight. I also like what Dennis said about the whole thing being an Other cover-up. That makes a lot of sense.
How would that have happened? Did they switch the license plates on the planes? Would that mean two plane crashed?
sayid'sgirl - No, Juliet said Sun conceived 53 days ago; in other words, around day 37 on the Island.
Can't you continue having your period a couple of months into a pregnancy? I don't have any kids, but that's possible, isn't it?
If she was sleeping with Jae right up until she left, it would be possible that she had one last period on the island, right?
dennis - switched the license plates, lol!
I don't know how it could have happened. I guess I was thinking this way:
1) Everyone buys tickets for flight 815.
2) They show up at the airport and are told that flight 815 is at a certain gate.
3) They board the plane at that gate and take off.
4) Meanwhile, the real flight 815 is boarding somewhere else entirely.
Admittedly, this is proably the least likely scenario. I'm leaning more toward either a) someone faked a crash site to halt any searches or b) Des somehow changed the timeline so that there were two outcomes for 815.
melissa_lossa - Bleeding can occur, but it's not a "period" in the technical sense.
But it's very possible that the trauma of the crash screwed up her cycle. It's equally possible that being surrounded by so many strange women for an extended period (no pun intended) and living under the moon has also wonked up her cycle (no joke).
Regardless, the fact remains that a few days prior to the day Juliet describes as the DOC, Jin left Sun in a huff after learning she speaks English.
dennis said...Did they switch the license plates on the planes?
LOL, yeah something like that. It would mean that two planes crashed yes, one that was found with no survivors, and one that crashed on the island (like melissa said, the old switcharoo). In theory it makes no sense, but neither does people coming back from the dead, brain/DNA scanning smoke monsters, and magic boxes. A decoy of sorts is feasible. We now know that they have their own private airport in Oregon somewhere. Also, it does support the idea that this has been set up by an outside force (DHARMA, Widmore, Paik, the Others...dunno) for some time. The key will be finding out if no survivors means everyone was dead, or if they didn't find any people.
ange - The parachutist stated that "they were all dead."
memphish
Are you saying that you think even in a bad marriage they had sex before then? Which they may have but it doesn't mean they would get pregnant before now. And believe me if you're in a bad marriage 48 days isn't that long to not have sex.
so where does that leave michael. if the others were involved at all with the fake plane crash they cant let anyone go back ever. you have to assume that with all the information that they have Ben also knows that people have stopped looking for the losties.
which would lead me to think that mike and walt are being held somewhere else and were never allowed to leave.
Sayid's Girl, Sun seemed to say to Juliet last night that she and Jin were not getting busy in the days leading up to Flight 815. She implied that the only man off-Island who could be the daddy was Jae.
why would women 3 - 8 try and get pregnant if 2 had already died the same way? and who would the fathers be. i dont think that i would CHOOSE to kill my wife/babys momma in order to have a child without her.
I told y'all the pregnancy math wasn't computing in my head yet. If she got pregnant day 37 on-Island then she could have just finished her period pre-crash and that math would work. 53+37=90, right? But by day 37, according to LostPedia, Sun and Jin were living apart and not speaking. Now you don't have to talk to make a baby, but . . . So now who's the daddy?
memphish - the only other person we could assume would be michael.
bigdog - If you were part of a society that was unable to procreate, and there was a chance that, thanks to a brilliant new doctor, you and your wife might be the first to reverse that condition, wouldn't you take that shot? Especially if the vitality of your community has a higher importance than just living another day..?
Sayid'sgirl said... I was just thinking maybe Naomi is an other and Patchy was looking for her and she just plain lied about flight 815. Just about everybody lies on this show.
Initially I thought that Naomi was sent by Penny to try and find Desmond, but if that was the case then why would she be shocked to find out that there are survivors of Flight 815?
What about this theory? The Others did not know Desmond's name. The only thing they knew about him was the boat. Patchy requested registration records for the boat to try and find the owner. All that research took days, and in the meantime communications were lost. Now to get the information about Desmond to the Others, Naomi (also an other) had to physically come to the island to deliver it. That was why Patchy was in the jungle; he was waiting for the flare to rendevouz (did I spell that right) with her. When she saw the Losties first, she was scared and tried to scare them away by saying "I am not alone".
Since she was just an Other messenger, she would not know about the Losties, or that they were from 815. She would only be told enough to get the job done.
Of course, Juliet could be off a couple of days and Sun and Jin could have done it before she came strolling out in her bikini. In fact maybe that's why she wore the bikini. It's not even THE numbers and I still can't figure it out.
tehbookpolice
you're right I misunderstood her.
She said you crashed on the island days ago the baby was concieved about 8 weeks ago...so about 53 days. I thought she was say 53 days on the island not 53 days gestation.
So she must have gotten pregnant before Jin left on the raft. She was scared for him and didn't want him to go.
Why haven't the Others theorized that the island sperm (300-400 million count) could be responsible for the pregnancy problems. If this is the case, then the women are not the problem and it is the men that need to be researched.
acewebguy - Don't forget that Desmond wasn't on the plane! Any search and rescue operations funded or directed by Penny would have no connection to 815.
tbp - i hear you, and i could understand the first to try and even the second. but jules seemed to know from the beginning that the problem is with the island. not the people. so after i saw my friends suffer that way. me personally would not sacrifice my loved one. but as the theme of this show is it would have been the mothers choice not mine.
Morning all the day after!
Sorry, Memphish: Dennis, Scoutpost and I were just as confused as the rest of you! LOL
2costa said: my only question is patchy being a live just a long con to make the island healing power seem that much stronger, would others come back to life if they were not buried so fast. If mikhail lived through that then kelvin is definetly still alive.
No matter what TPTB say, dead is not dead! Kelvin could very well be alive, too!
carissa said: One thing that infuriates me on this show is that they Losties don't communicate with each other! (excpet for last night where Charlie conveniently knows about Mikhail. Hum... maybe the Losties are starting to realize th emore information shared the better!)
Finally, the Losties are starting to talk! When Patchy first burst upon the five of them, I thought, oh no, they have no idea who he is and I was getting "mad" that Kate and Sayid didn't tell anybody what happened on the trip to Otherville. But, later, Charlie did acknowledge that they told him. And Sun was asking a lot of questions that I wanted to hear answers to of Juliet
andy said: didn't the wreckage get sucked into the ocean? it could have made its way out to sea and then found right?
That was one of my many takes on this subject last night. Some wreckage could have been found in the ocean and everyone on Flight 815 was presumed dead.
bigdog said: the only other person we could assume would be michael.
Yes, TPTB mentioned it could be a mystery man besides Jin and Jae! That would make sense to me.
Thanks bookpolice...I did just see that on LostPedia as well. Huh, so I wonder who all the bodies belonged to?
Also, maybe the pregnancies were invetro bigdog. It would make sense and would be apt to happen what with the high sperm count and all.
acewebguy said...Patchy requested registration records for the boat to try and find the owner. All that research took days, and in the meantime communications were lost. Now to get the information about Desmond to the Others, Naomi (also an other) had to physically come to the island to deliver it
That makes so much sense and totally would explain why Naomi had a picture of Desmond. Although why THAT picture...when he and Penny were the only ones to have it? Also, explains why Naomi would perhaps lie about flight 815...although I just dunno, these people have HUGE abilities to keep their heads about them and keep up their lies/farce when in great amounts of pain. I could't do that.
TBP: Naomi could have been DHARMA or an Other and have nothing to do with Panny. She was asked to find out who Desmond was BECAUSE he was not on the plane. Although if there are no ties to Penny again, it makes me wonder about that specific picture.
About Michael: I don't think he or any other mystery man is the father, unless it was without Sun's knowledge. She seemed sure that off island = Jae and on island = Jin. If she was willing to tell Juliet that she'd had one affair, why not two?
A-ha, melissa! That's the rub. Would the Others be above involuntary and secret artificial insemination?
Also, there's nothing problematic about a too-high sperm count. I know of no studies that show an extremely high sperm count would lead to problems with conception, unless an inordinate amount were deformed.
personally, I dont think its michael either, but early he was the only one kinda close to sun. but ange gives another valid option with invetro pregnancies?
has it ever been said what jules did to get rachel pregnant?
I love how thursdays at work always go by alot faster after a good episode.
I just read a really interesting theory that's making me think. Hard.
http://theoriesonlost.blogspot.com/2007/04/events-on-island-are-impacting-events.html
Man! So much to talk about.
Ok what if the Others artificially inseminated Kate when they captured K,S,J. They were all unconscious for a while and they obviously took some kind of blood sample. Of course this scenario is really grossing me out.
Who was it-memphish(?) who asked why they can't do a c-section and deliver a 20 week old fetus- That's what I wonder. I mean I know it is really new technology and docs have only saved one 22 week old, but the Others do seem to have access to some pretty high tech stuff, so yeah, why aren't they trying to do that? Maybe that's why Sabine (or whoever the mom was in Jules flashback) was in the operating room. OR maybe there is some more serious problem going on that makes a c-section not practical or useful.
omgosh, we really exploded on the blog with comments. Way to go LoCo!
Some random thoughts: Absolutely LOVED Sun's threat to Jin's egg-donor (she who gave birth to him but isn't worthy to be called mom). Sun is her father's daughter after all.
Here's an "ew" for the day: what if Mr. Paik is Jin's bio-dad? Ew. Nah, I don't think they'd go there.
Did anyone read about the South Korean gov't telling its people to not feel guilty over what that guy did at VA Tech? Apparently because he was from S Korea they were faced with national guilt over his heinous acts. Here's a link for more
http://tinyurl.com/39f4cy
Yeah scoutpost, that could have happened, We still have no idea what happened to Kate during her lost time with the Others just after the purpling. Something made her wrists all irritated, and she was seriously disturbed. I wonder if we'll start seeing flashbacks of her missing time. So her baby-daddy could be Sawyer or some random other sperm donor...ewwww!
yeah ange- maybe even Ben- oh the horror!!
As far as Sun's D.O.C.- I was really happy for her thinking that the father was Jin, but now that the math is making that questionable...dang.
memphish- you asked about the preview and why Locke couldn't just do his own dirty work instead of asking Sawyer to do it- I think John knows if he does it, he will lose his power to walk again- at least that's my theory.
Yeah, I also thought Juliet's question of when Sun and Jin last had sex was weird. Doctors don't ask that. They ask when was your last period when trying to determine d.o.c.
Any of you moms out there ever been asked that by a doctor (esp. the OB/Gyn)?
All this insemination talk is very icky! LOL Kate and Ben, yuck!
I thought the actors did a great job with Sun and Juliet. It seemed really real to me. But, as you say, Scoutpost, the math (and they were very specific on that last night) does leave some doubts in my mind.
Amused2bhere: That would be a strange questions for an OB/GYN, but not for a fertility specialist! (I went through that.)
amused- it is definitely not a normal question from an ob/gyn- you're right on that- they usually are just concerned with the dates of your last cycle. However...Jules is a fertility doc and if you've ever been through that, you know that the questions become much more intimate. So that could explain the question, but it still seemed a little off to me.
haha maven! we're on the same page. how's that for a second opinion? LOL
Scoutpost: LOL!
But you're right. It was a little out there to ask that specific question. However, they wanted to be very specific about dates, etc. last night.
There's a lot of good discussion going on. A little too much to catch up on, so forgive me if I repeat anything that's been said:
What a creepy ending! My best guess about the whole "they found 815 and everyone was dead" thing is that whoever's funding the Others used their money and power to manipulate the media, feeding them false information. That would call off the search (keeping the island from being accidentally discovered), and hide the fact that there were survivors. I've thought for a while that Jacob must be someone with a lot of money. My wild theory is that he's actually Charles Widmore. I guess we'll see.
While it may seem "obvious" that Naomi is an Other plant and part of a con, I think she's legit. We know from last season's finale that Penny is looking for Desmond, and that her people found the island. Going back and making this all a con would be really lame.
I think Mikhail came upon them because he thought the flare was a signal from the Others, and not because he meant to come upon Des's crew.
For those interested, I just finished my post about this episode.
Hi LoCos! Great theorizing today!
I can't remember who said what either, but here's what I thought of some comments:
1) I agree with you all about the super-spermcount. Perhaps if they are multiplying exponentially, there might be something wrong with them. All 100 bazillion of them. Perhaps they are mutated in some way by their super-growth and then at conception, the "zygote" is not normal and is rejected by the host body as being not human, or something to that effect. I'd really like to see what one of those monster-babies looks like before the series is over! :o)
2) After this week, and looking again at that DarkUFO pic of Patchy, he scares me a lot! That actor really knows how to make he face look crazy-evil! But I'm glad that he's back to scare us.
3) Although I don't want to, I tend to lean towards the theory of Naomi being sent in as an emergency information messenger (on their mysterious guest Desmond) to the Others, since the Purpling. It makes sense as to why Patchy was jumping through the jungle there to meet the jumper, since he's the communications man. Although, he also could have been running to see who/what fell from the sky, as they've done before. And I would prefer to hope that she was sent by Penny, as that would mean that there is still hope for our sorrowful lovers.
4) Last night in the re-showing of the Dez/Penny pic, the picutre was not in snapshot form, it was printed on a sheet of paper that stuck out from the edges of the book. So I think that we can maybe not obsess about how many original photos there are now. It seems that there have been Xerox type copies made of it.
Great comments everyone, and very helpful!
I don't remember if it's been mentioned or not, but is it possible Mr. Paik could be Jin real dad? The point was made that Jin's prostitute mother was with many men and the fisherman just decided to raise him if there was a possibility he was his son. EWW....Sun and Jin could be brother and sister!
Amused, that thought of Jin and Sun being syblings crossed by mind too, I'm glad I'm not the only one. :o)
That makes three! :o)
I can't wait till Fenris checks in on this ep too!
I sure hope Mr. Paik doesn't end up being Jin's real father.
Aw, heck, it'll probably end up being Christian Shepard...
Erich,
I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned the possibility of Jin's father being Christian Shepherd. It sounds like you were joking but that has been the theory I've been peddling around my office all day. I know it's kind of a long shot but how great would it be if Jin & Jack are brothers?!
All,
I agree with everyone that I think the Cooper = Real Sawyer connection will be made soon. If not for the Losties, then at least for us.
Now I'm wondering...Could Cooper & Christian Shepherd have a connection and if so, what?
capcom,
LOL about the "monster babies"
If Sun and Jin are sibs, then I really hope that Jin is NOT the father of Sun's baby...otherwise we may have the answer to why the foot statue only had toes.
capcom said...
I'd really like to see what one of those monster-babies looks like before the series is over! :o)
Yes I'm telling you this is the answer to the 4 toes! LOL
I will just weigh in and say that if the whole "mystery" behind flight 815 being found w/no survivors is simply a media spin or set up, I will be disappointed. I really want there to be some myth/mystery behind that. I know the time travel theories are difficult and have holes in them, but I really like the time travel/alternate time line possibilities. I know, I know I'm in the minority.
Hey admin!
chucklez3 said... http://flytristar.tripod.com/images/delta-gb/j_wilkinson/jw09.jpg
Once again that is not he Dharma logo. Second of all that is not the cast and crew of LOST TPTB started to Cast the show in 2003 and most of those signitures that are dated are dated 2001, I don't know where you got this photo but it is bogus.
Maven,
Patchy does not allude to time being different but that the time to heal is different on the island, which is something we all know already.
Memphish said...
5. The math of Sun's pregnancy hasn't added up in my head yet. Given the dates Juliet said, Sun should have had her period on-Island pre-DOC. Why all the mystery then?
Maybe you don't get all the symptoms of your period and PMS while on the island because of its healing qualities.
and ...
Be a man and do your own dirty work Locke!
Maybe he knows that if he does an evil thing like kill, that the island itself will stop being his savior and friend... hmmmmm
I also made the connection some time last night that JIN was raised by another, just like Locke and Sawyer and so many others on the island. WHo have done bad things off island.
Tim said...
I still don't think there is any way that Flight 815 could have been intentionally trying to land on the island. It would need a huge runway in a large open space, which just doesn't seem to be available on the island.
Check this out... lol
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7917/ogcrashsitepm7.jpg
LOL LOL LOL
Well still catching up. I will post again later... I hope.
Admin: it hadn't occurred to me until I heard the Jin-Sun-sibling gross out theory. Who knows, the big finale for the show could be an island-wide Shepard family reunion!
I wonder if the Lostie connections really will center around a few people (Christian S., Cooper, Paik, Jacob). In many ways, the mystery of "why are these people so connected" is the biggest of them all.
What if Christian Shepherd is the father to all of the Losties- they're all half brothers and sisters! Ok maybe not Rose and Bernard.
and then, staying with the Biblical/Judiaism symbolism, we can all call Christian "Father Abraham".
Erich, Carissa, Ded,
I'm also leaning towards the idea that Naomi's comment implied that there had been some massive media cover-up/spin about the crash of Flight 815 to make anyone interested believe that there were no survivors.
What I'm unsure of is...Who is pulling the strings? This is kinda one of the biggies...
Were the Others responsible for the cover up via commands from Ben/Jacob made through Mikhail? Were Dharma/Hanso folks repsonsible for the cover up through the activity of Widmore, Paik, etc? Are these two groups actually connected in some way?
Goes back to the ultimate issue of whether or not they were selected to be on that plane and the crash was intentional. If the crash/selection were the result of some sovereign ruling body, I think this would rule out the possibility of Ben/Jacob being in control b/c they seemed genuinely surprised by the crash.
They still could have covered up the crash but they didn't make it happen. Maybe whoever selected passengers/caused the crash knew the Others well enought to know that Ben/Jacob/Mikhail would cover it up and they were counting on that as part of their plan.
Hey Scoutpost!
:)
Admin: I guess a lot of this comes down to how much you think "fate" or some supernatural force has a role to play in all this. While I currently think there was an 815 cover-up, that doesn't necessarily mean the passengers were put on that flight by any human scheme.
As much as people keep bringing up that "there are no supernatural answers," I'm not convinced. There are so many things on this show that seem beyond logic or human control that I think there has to be room for supernatural stuff.
An aside: can anyone site the source where TPTB said "nothing is supernatural"? I'd love to know, for my own sanity/theorizing. Much appreciated.
There was a point where I believed that one of the intentions of LOST was to simply demonstrate and illustrate the beauty and mystery of the new "global community" that we share as a result of the past decade's communication advances. How we are all more connected than we ever could have imagined.
Then my thinking started changing. I felt like they were getting close to stepping beyond allegory by getting too specific and too intimate with their connections. If it does end up that the island is some sort of massive family reunion, I felt for a while that this would mean the social allegory would fall apart.
Now I'm thinking that they may be working on an anthropological allegory that is reflecting on something much bigger than the modern day communication driven community. All this talk of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob makes me think back to the Biblical Patriarch who came before Abraham....NOAH! All of us are descendants of Noah and are connected in that way. Not all of us are descendants of Abraham and that has caused a crack in humanity that is still visible today.
I have too much work to do to take this thinking any further but I thought I'd toss it out there...
Okay if the theory pans out that Jin and Sun are half siblings (EWWWW GROSS IMHO) then there maybe they each carry a recessive gene that would not show or become apparent until it was paired with the same recessive gene. Gosh I am a little rusty on my dominant-recessive gene squares from high school! If they both have it, and maybe it is THAT gene that will allow a baby to be carried to term/the mother live on the island.
scoutpost... LOL Not that it has anything to do with Lost, seeing you reference Father Abraham made me think of the song I knew when I was younger:
Father Abraham
Seven sons served
Seven sons served Father Abraham
And they didn't laugh
And they didn't cry
All's they did was go like this (make chopping motion with arm)
I think that's how it went. Anyway, it made me chuckle to see the reference.
Admin: Plane = Ark, Crash = Flood...I like it.
Your thoughts are very well put.
There are a lot of specific references to the Old Testament. Its not too much of a stretch to see everyone on the island as the Israelites...what with their tribes and such.
At the very least, the themes of redemption and sin in the show are strong enough to argue for Biblical allegory.
Scoutpost, I would like some mystery-science atmosphere surrounding 815 as well.
And -- GASP! -- maybe those monster babies DO have four toes! You may be on to something there.
About Christian, the Lost S2 DVD connections section does say that it all points to one person, or something like that. Although Jack is the central figure in that schematic, and CS is shown and obvioiusly not the shadow figure, TPTB could have been throwing us off to the CS thing by putting Jack in the middle. Uh-oh. There goes my brain again, it always shuts down when we have to account for TPTB throwing us curves that add a million extra dimensions to the simple theories! Must go scrape my brain off the walls again. @:-O
Good theory Admin. Maybe TPTB got into that National Geographic Genomic data finding project that lets peple find their farthest DNA origins! I did that, and the results were very interesting. It costs $80 if anyone is interested in that, and the project is ongoing.
Erich,
I wasn't thinking along those lines. That is kind of a different Noah's Ark theory (I think there is an article in Lostpedia about what you mentioned).
I was thinking more along the lines of: All of the characters on the show end up being connected to one man or entity (A "Noah" from their past). However, after one degree of separation from that man or entity, there was a clear division into "clans" (for lack of a better phrase) that became the foundation of great conflict and misunderstanding intermixed with a sense of connectedness and belonging.
I don't know if I'm making much sense anymore. I'm also thinking about the Tower of Babel which sits right in between Noah & Abraham.
Sorry guys...I got to go. I'm going to check back in later on these discussions.
Lostpedia has a Waving Figure Article from the Season 2 DVD. There is a mystery and...
The quote they gave is..."The only thing we can be sure of is: in the beginning, it all starts with one person."
Good stuff LoCos! Some thoughts.
Sun Jin siblinghood - big yuck. I thought of Christian Shephard earlier too but discounted it because Jin doesn't look like his dad's American, but still you never know. Maybe Christian was a military doctor in Viet Nam and went on R&R in Korea. Those dates would be about right.
My Locke preview theory is that Locke getting Sawyer to kill A Coop is his test for joining the Others. True believers like Ben don't do their own killing, they manipulate someone else into doing it. Someone suggested maybe he thinks he'll lose his ability to walk if he kills, but why would he think that since he thinks he killed Patchy?
Oh Memphish! Super avi!!!!!!! :-D congrats for being the first one to think of it. Snicker.
Thanks capcom. A friend made it for me. She says it's Juliet's SuperSperm Fertility Hatch logo.
On that topic, you get a baby when 1 sperm penetrates 1 egg. Increased sperm count shouldn't have anything to do with the single sperm's properties good or ill, should it?
Doc Arzt at The Tail Section interviewed Rachel Blake or rather Jamie Silberhartz.
memphish said... On that topic, you get a baby when 1 sperm penetrates 1 egg. Increased sperm count shouldn't have anything to do with the single sperm's properties good or ill, should it?
I think one man's sperm properties are all the same.
Sorry if this has been brought up but Juliet always has said the mothers die. I don't think she ever said the babies die also, does she? If they don't, what has happened to them?
I agree ib4uc that we don't know for sure that the children die, but we haven't seen any children in Othersville ever including Zack and Emma. Is there a nursery island?
memphish said...
Someone suggested maybe he thinks he'll lose his ability to walk if he kills, but why would he think that since he thinks he killed Patchy?
That was me and I had forgotten about Patchy so that wouldn't make sense unless it's significant that Patchy isn't dead?! Anyway, I like your theory better, I'm sure a Ben manipulation fits into the picture there somehow.
Admin- I'm following you on the everyone descended from a "Noah" theory. I like the anthropological allegory angle. Wow, we're even studying Genesis in our church's small group, so now my mind is really racing at that possibility!
I'm beginning to like the theory that all the Losties are somehow connected (some even genetically) and are tied into one person (Jacob?). Were they all manipulated to be on Flight 815? The long shot that so many people are related/connected on one plane flight seems to me to be leading to more than just mere coincidence.
memphish... wasn't it Emma who was holding the teddy bear outside Jack's cage and they were with Cindy and they were there to watch, presumably Juliet's trial?
Yes, ib4uc, but we haven't seen where the kids "live."
Very true memphish. I misread your comment.
darn, I have a busy afternoon ahead of me and admins theory really has my mind racing. If it is an anthropological allegory like you said, then where does Desmond's flashes, and Dharma fit in? Could it be that Dharma figured out that the only way to prevent humananity from annihilation/extinction was to make them realize how interconnected they all are? Live together, die alone?
Now I really want to know who "Adam and Eve" are/were.
I guess that increased sperm count would just increase your chances. Perhaps Jin was low on count or had none at all, and then the island gave him a boost.
It is curious why they say that the mothers died, but never any mention of the foreign-matter-fetuses. If the children didn't die, then they wouldn't need to steal other people's kids, they would only have to steal more women. But they do steal kids. Hmmm.
you know, i recall when i posted long ago (year or so) on another board and way back here as well that i thought a plausible theory was a faked crash. however, the others ran out and saw the plane break up.
so my other two theories i think are still ones with intriguing story lines.
1. the purgatory/dante's inferno one. wikipedia it. you'll enjoy the VAST similarities.
2. the idea that these people were all "selected" and brought to the island intentionally from the beginning. however, the crash was an accident. they were way too low when coming over the island when the electromagnetic surge happened causing it to rip apart.
but when i mentioned both of these, i was attacked with ridicule and basically got ran away from TLEC and ultimately ended up with the rbrefugees clique. so, i submit the theories again. merely food for thought. and if there are any questions about logic, etc. need i remind everyone that desmond now sees the future, we've tapped into time-travel (what happened with that?), we have smokey making a fist and picking up Eko (still think it didn't happen quite like that) and finally, the four-toed statue. which makes NO SENSE unless we're planning a cross-over with the Simpsons!!
oh and btw, for all those who basically tried to "will" a cross-over with Heroes, get a grip. I said it before. you're dealing with TWO powerhouse networks. NBC and ABC. they will NOT pull anything like that. Besides, this show has enough "issues" to rectify and doors to close. they shouldn't make matters worse by opening more doors on other networks linked to shows about superheroic powers.
and with that, off again.
Really now, I've never seen anyone chased off of TLEC, it's too friendly here. Unless it was an interloper who did not play by the "nice" rules.
:D Capcom, I was thinking that too. This is the nicest board ever ever!
I mean, the interloper being the one who chased someone off. :-)
Maybe the Others are financing their operation by bottling the "virility-enhancing" power of the island and selling it in the back of men's magazines.
I'd love to see the warnings on that product:
If you experience the smoke monster chasing you for more than four hours, contact your physician...
Erich, My email in-box seems to be full of Others advertising as well.
Memphish: Well, at least now we know the Others' computers aren't just for playing chess and ordering take-out...err food drops.
Memphish, you're Mr.Spermy should have an "S" on his chest for Super-Sperm. :->
Here's a thought I just had - is Ben maybe so obsessed with the fertility thing because he had a wife/girlfriend who:
a) got pregnant and died or
b) he wanted to get pregnant, but she refused to take the risk and they split up?
Maybe that's why he's so determined? Just a thought I had today while on the treadmill. :)
Jack and Juliet both became curious about Sun's pregnancy this episode. I am starting to think about that a bit. I am pretty sure that neither one of them can be taken at face value right now, but what if they are in it together? Both hate Ben, but both think that they need him for something. Correct me if I am wrong, but they are both pretty much the only medical professionals left on the island. Why not combine forces so to speak.
melissa_lossa: Do you think it is actually Ben who is obsessed with fertility, or is he just doing the bidding of a higher up?
Also, I think there has been a record set for the number of times the word sperm, in various forms :O), has been posted on this blog today.
Melissa, I'm trying to understand why he/they would be so obsessed with working out this problem as well, rather than just leaving the bloody island. I know, that brings up all kinds of reasons why they can or can't leave the island (they'll die, or shrivel up, etc.). But it could also just be because The World is evil, and they choose not to return to the evil homeland of their ancestors and to remain in Shambala. Or, Jacob will not allow them to return to the evil World. Whatever the reason, if they stay, they must try to figure out the mother-eating-fetus problem.
I really want to see the sonograms of these evil fetuses! Can't wait for the screencaps of those. :o)
My theory about Ben and babies is that his mother died giving birth to him like just like the Biblical Benjamin. This is making it up to his own mother who he never knew. Kind of ironic he deprived Alex of hers as well.
Good question, ange - I guess I'm not sure if it's Ben or Jacob that has the real obsession.
Because to me, the easiest solution would be, if you want to have a baby, just leave the island for a little while, and then bring the little bugger back after it's born. There has to be some reason they want to be able to have babies ON the island, without anyone leaving.
Here's another question: Assuming that Rousseau was telling the truth, and Alex was born on the island, did something happen after that to create the problem? If it happened before, why didn't Ben tell Juliet, "you don't have to take anyone off of the island to find out if it happens at conception - we already know that it does, because this other woman had a baby here just fine"?
And if it happens at conception, why not just have any couple that wants to have a baby leave, conceive and then come back?
OMG WTF???
Heh, I literally just watched it. So not caught up yet. But wanted to say that and throw in my initial reaction.
1)Okay so "dead" people don't always stay dead. But then I assume he was only dead for a short time, it's only death through extensive tissue damage (from guns for example) that makes people stay dead.
2)Looking for logical explainable reasons for the plane thing the only theory I have at the moment is that the Others faked that fact. We know their influence travels far and wide and they seem to have a *lot* of resources available to them. So they could have faked the planes recovery and the list of dead bodies.
3. I forgot how hot Sun is.
Anyway I'm off to watch previews of next week.
Melissa: You raise a very good point!
Another Point- There are really only three births on the island that we know about (if we believe what Danielle and Ben say). We know Aaron was born there. How many other actual babies have been born there, and where are they? (I am thinking Karl is one as well).
*So what makes the island so special that one needs to make a baby there?
*If it is the island that is the X-factor, and not necessarily the actual baby, then why do they need Aaron, Sun's baby, Alex, and "children" from the crash?
Fenris: Check your blog, the previews are there :D
Thoughts:
1. Juliet has always seemed reluctant to stay on the island. Why is this the case if you can be imortal on the island? Perhaps the Others are not there for this reason? Or is it her reluctance only around Ben? Ben to Locke: "Yes, why would we stay here?" Maybe only Ben wants to stay and the Others are there for his will.
2. Not to say they couldn't do it, but the cost to cover up a crash like this would be astronomical. If cash is not object, why do the others have less than stellar equipment?
3. Could Ben have used "the box" to make the cover up? We have surmised here before that the box could extend into the real world (eg Juliet's ex, TMFT).
4. Thinking back to Penny looking for Desmond, when the sky turned purple and they located the signal, they seemed to be looking for it or something similar to the signal. How could Penny know what to look for.
5. If Ben didn't use the box for the cover up, perhaps it is the time theory discussed above for the inconsistancy. A support for this is Desmond's abilitis. Perhaps seeing the future. Could also explain Ben's ability as a master manipulator.
New theory, the children, Zack and Emma and previously Walt are actually the giant hamsters powering the Island. :) As soon as Aaron can crawl, they'll be back for him.
jason said...2. Not to say they couldn't do it, but the cost to cover up a crash like this would be astronomical. If cash is not object, why do the others have less than stellar equipment?
Good point, but why any of it!? It seems like there is a mix of old and new on the island. Maybe they allocate their funds to things that are important at a specific time, like the research and drug, rather than heart paddles, and newer equipment?
Mr Admin said
"Lostpedia has a Waving Figure Article from the Season 2 DVD. There is a mystery"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AUqhga2ul-Q
I wonder who it will turn out to be?
Ohhh, If I'm right about tissue damage, you know what that means?
The two that got burried alive will keep being brought back by the island. Indefinitely having to suffer being burried alive! Ouch.
Sucks to be them!
Actually, I just watched the parts of E12 with Patchy in. Seems no one checked his pulse or anything. So it probably is just an assumption he was dead cos of the whole not moving bit. Hmmm. Still I wonder about those two.
Hi Loco's.;
Just a drive by.
Was that Mrs.Haw-King I saw last with Sun night?
jason said... Not to say they couldn't do it, but the cost to cover up a crash like this would be astronomical.
There is the possibility that some wreckage was spotted far out at sea and everyone was presumed dead. So the Others wouldn't have necessarily had to orchestrate anything besides maybe dragging some pieces of the wreckage away from the island.
Does anybody think there's a possibility that Juliet is lying to Sun? Think about it: Juliet knows the baby was conceived off island, so Sun is safe. But, by letting Sun believe that the father is Jin and she is doomed, Juliet can miraculously "save" Sun and, therefore, win more trust from the Losties (like what she did with Claire).
Good idea, maven - the fuselage did wash away. Maybe someone just dragged that and some other pieces out into the ocean. If anyone found those pieces and the bodies that were in them out in the middle of the ocean, they would naturally assume that everyone aboard was dead.
I don't know. Ben said that he would see Juliette in a week, so I assume that whatever mission she is on will be wrapped up by then. Lying to Sun seems like it would be more of a long-term con. She'd have to keep that up for months before anyone was sure that Sun would live.
Melissa_lossa: I don't know, either. LOL. It would be a problem with Ben's statement that he'd see Juliet in one week (finale), but, the problems happen in the 2nd trimester, so it wouldn't be too far away to stage a miraculous saving of Sun next season maybe. I never think these things through! LOL
Hee, hee - the more you think them through, maven, the less sense they make!
fenris said:
Actually, I just watched the parts of E12 with Patchy in. Seems no one checked his pulse or anything. So it probably is just an assumption he was dead cos of the whole not moving bit.
Thank you fenris I've said that all along. I've never believed he was dead. Maybe seriously injured or he could have faked it.
I also think Locke was in on the shove me into the fence with Patchy.
I can't remember the exact quote but after Locke blew up the station he looked at Patchy and said he knew why he didn't want him to push 77 or maybe play the chess game not sure. But it was as if he understood something and he wanted Patchy to know that he got it and he was with him.
maven /melissa: I think in a week Juliet is to bring her "samples" to Ben from the women on the beach.
Patchy still had dried blood coming out of his ears last night - seems like if he were faking, he would have just wiped off the make-up.
I don't think he was dead, either, though. I think he knew it would hurt, but not kill him, and that it would heal fast. I think Locke knew the same thing, and that's why he pushed him.
Yeah, I think you're right, ange. I'm thinking that's her whole mission, but you never know with those crazy others!
A week doesn't seem like enough time to save Claire, earn everyone's trust, check out Sun, get samples from all of the women AND accomplish some other secret mission.
"We still have no idea what happened to Kate during her lost time with the Others just after the purpling. Something made her wrists all irritated, and she was seriously disturbed. I wonder if we'll start seeing flashbacks of her missing time. So her baby-daddy could be Sawyer or some random other sperm donor...ewwww! "
I can answer this one. I don't know if it was in one of the official podcasts or an interview or something, but Lindelof/Cuse said that they had filmed a scene when Kate was attempting to get out of her handcuffs (I think by putting them around a pipe and pulling or something) and that's how she bruised her wrists, but then they cut that scene so the following shot made less sense.
Wow, thanks for that Aardvark. I like it when the official podcasts relieve us of at least a little bit of analysis!
Darkaardvark, thanks for that. I think it was in an interview on E!Online with Kristen. Isn't there some rumor that they're going to re-run Season 3 this summer with deleted scenes? Maybe that one will be re-inserted then.
What bugs about The Return of Patchy is that it doesn't get us anywhere. Locke pushes him through the sonic fence, he keels over with bloody ears. Kate Sayid and Locke believe he's dead. But Patchy's faux death just made Kate et al think they had to climb over the sonic fence. Big deal. It didn't set anything up for a future plot point. Now that we know Patchy is alive, Charlie is bound to mention it to Kate and Sayid, since they are all talking so much these days. The only way the death could mean anything would have to do with Locke, who believes he's dead and won't learn otherwise from the Losties.
His appearance just in time to save Naomi was too deus ex machina for me (the literary term not the epi)
The thing I didn't understand was, what happened to "I'm Desmond, and I was almost a doctor"? He didn't seem to have any idea what to do.
I guess the weird thing is, FYSB, why he pretended to die. And why Bea wanted (or pretended to want) to die. Or, if Patchy died, how he came back to life. I think that he was faking, but waddoo-I-know. Anyway, it might just all be a setup for the future payoff of telling us why he "died" in that ep. At least there'd better be a payoff, to make some sense of it, as you said.
Heh, Melissa, maybe it was like his almost being a monk. :-) He made it into the program, but flunked out in the first week.
Maybe Desmond was like my freshman year roommate who signed up for Chemistry, German, some other tough pre-med class and ended up dropping them all. Did saying she was doing pre-med make her almost a doctor? Maybe Desmond was the trainer for his local football club. He said he had ankle taping experience.
ah, memphish - I like that idea! "I was almost a doctor. And by almost a doctor, I mean the guy that took care of athlete's foot for Celtic."
Well, did the Others really think having Patchy pretend to die after being pushed through the sonic fence would really make Sayid, Locke and Kate just say: "Oh, well, we better not go any further" and turn around and go back to the beach? I don't think so.
Do you think that the Other planned to send Patchy into the fence, or did he set that up himself to get away from Sayid & Kate? Maybe THAT was the "other way" he was talking about.
Okay, it's 8:30 - time to leave work! ;)
See everybody tomorrow!
I don't think it would be that hard to fake the crash. All they have to do is fake the report on it. The only problem would be when people start to wonder why they haven't been given the bodies of their loved ones back yet. But they could always play the "not much left" line and perhaps throw some random charred remains their way. It would take riches, but not insane riches. They wouldn't actually have to produce plane wreckage. Not when a few bribes will do well enough.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/TV/04/26/television.drive.reut/index.html
Drive's been cancelled.
That was fast.
Wow, it took all night to catch up. You guys have been busy!
Melissa, I was thinking the same thing about Desmond being "almost a doctor".
As far as the DOC goes, someone asked about having a period early in pregnancy. Yes, it's possible, thought it's not a full period. That happened to me. I was very irregular and was 6 weeks into my cycle when I got my period (or so I thought) but it only lasted a day. Two weeks later, after talking to my older sister, I took a test and it was positive.
So it's possible that she could have thought that it was Jae's.
But that still leaves the question of when did Sun and Jin have the time to do it? It must have been just before he left on the raft. That's the only way it could be Jin's. I suppose she could have been artificially inseminated wihtout her knowledge by Juliette...
re patchy - I was thinking that he might have come running after the flair which made me wonder if Naomi was an other. It seems like patchy knew that she had a phone because he asked about what was in her bag like he was looking for something in particular.
The "other" flight 815 is most likely a coverup. But who is responsible for covering it up? Who is bankrolling this whole island thing and why?
Another thought. Didn't they already get samples from Kate when they had her in captivity? What further samples could they need form her unless they are expecting her to be pregnant?
Maybe one of the reasons Juliette is so desparate to get off the island because she herself is pregnant. She was with Goodwin...
Which brings me to my final point for this post (sorry about the length). Maybe those women who died during pregnancy didn't plan to get pregnant. Maybe their birth control pills were placebos supplied by Juliette?
That's sad. I really really enjoyed that show and was hoping to see it go far. They put a lot of money into that too.
Aw crap. I liked Drive. It had the potential of a LOST type mystery. Just who is running the race and why? Why were those people selected to participate? Now we'll never know.
Yeah that is a damn shame. I liked Drive a lot and have already written to FOX to tell them it wasn't Drive that affected the ratings of 24... it was 24 that affected the ratings of 24. The show never grabbed my attention, but it seemed to be getting worse as it went along. Poor Nathan, Fox just won't give that guy a break.
Uh, nice avi ded? j/k That was the best part of that whole episode.
Wow, now I never thought (duh) about the prospect of Juliet being pregnant, that would really explain her focused desperation to get off the island as soon as possible. Although based on what we saw in One of Us- I think she's just tired of Ben's crap and wants to go home to see Rachel. But you never know....
J.Wood is up.
Hey All,
Good epi last night. Haven't had time to read all the comments yet, but I was glad to see this forum picked up on something that I thought was key yet widely missed by the masses. (EW, fuselage, blogs, etc.)
Sayid'sgirl said...
So it was Sun who got Jin into her father's business.
Never ask a mobster for a favor even if he is your dad.
So Jin isn't the "morally questionable" man that he has appeared to be to this point, and Sun continues to be the glass balerina and lie/cheat her way to what she wants. Just like daddy.
Jin was a floor manager (low level, but respectable) after the two got married and was content making his own way to support their marriage. Sun's goal of paying off the prostitute mom was one with good intentions, but instead it ends up destroying the man she loves anyway. Jin becomes a thug for Mr Paik, becomes an agry and tormented person, and Sun ultimatley hates her marriage, cheats on him, and makes plan to escape the situation she created in the first damn place. Sun is the one who is "moraly questionable", and she continues to hide behind the illusion she created.
Sun once again lucks out and determines she will not have to tell Jin about Jae Lee since the baby is Jin's. This so reminded me of the little girl in glass balerina. Willing to carry on the lie regardless of the circumstances for the others.
Good catch Sayid's Girl!
diggitydirge - FWIW, I was amazed (but not surprised, if there is a distinction) to see that development too. It was on my list of points to mention right from the start, but then we got rolling on menstrual cycles and calendar math.
I know everyone loves Sun because she's cute and has gotten stronger as the show has gone on. But I've been thinking (probably since Glass Ballerina) that she's going to turn out worse than Kate on the naughty-meter. Either before the Island, or on it (shooting Colleen in the gut...ouch!*), she's gonna prove to be 100% badass.
*technically, I suppose that's just off the Island. You get my point.
Morning all. It's too early and I haven't had enough coffee to read J. Wood yet, but I'm looking forward to it.
I'm sad about Drive. I liked it too, though I was time shifting my viewing of it and skipping the commercials. I'm not a Nielsen family though, so don't blame me. :) I really liked Nathan Fillion. Rumor has it they may post 2 more episodes on their myspace page. If I learn more I'll post it here.
Lostit, I like your idea that Juliet could be pregnant. That would be a great explanation of her kill Ben video. I wish they'd stop trying to make me like her. I don't think she had to trick women into being pregnant though. When Sabine died, albeit that was early on, Ben said something to the effect that she wanted to be pregnant and was willing to take the risk. I'd guess the other 8 guinea pigs were similar true believers or Room 23 victims.
BTW, Where's Karl?
Morning LoCos
Thanks Diggitydirge
Sun's definately not the pure innocent girl she portrays herself as. She even threatened Jin's "mother's" life.
So Drive is canceled? Man everytime I get interssted in a show it gets canceled.
I love those road racing type shows, gets my adrenaline going plus it did look like it had a good mystery to it. Oh well on to the next soon to be canceled show. :)
lostit said... Maybe one of the reasons Juliette is so desparate to get off the island because she herself is pregnant. She was with Goodwin...
What a good catch! Why didn't we think of this before? It would explain her motives.
Its funny, i dont know whether its just great writing or acting or both, but Juliet and Ben have been great for this show.
Juliet makes you hate her, like her, respect her and then hate her again.
IMHO - i dont think she is pregnant because if she was she conceived on the island and is marked for death. I believe she wants to leave for the reason she told sun. fertility docs want to create life not watch 8 pregnant women in your care die.
Watching her leave the i hate you ben message..after doing what he wants makes me think of her favorite book - Carrie at some point this girl will snap.
Sorry for the long post unlike memphish I have had way to much coffee this morning.
Hi, everybody...
I LOVE the idea of Juliet being pregnant! Do you think Ben manipulated that one to make her motivation more immediate and personal?
I'm SO disappointed about Drive being cancelled!! I really liked that show. They sure didn't give it much of a chance, did they?
Morning LoCos!
Wow, lots of great comments and theories abound. Ya'll have been up late thinking!
Juliet pregnant? Nah, not until it's Jack's.
A Shepherd Family reunion? LOL
I think TPTB are just trying to put Sun's DOC at the time when Jin was reunited with Sun after the raft thing. The dates don't match up exactly, but then maybe they can't do math either.
Here's a question: if the sperm count is 5x greater, then wouldn't there be an increase in multiple births? All identical, because with one egg and multiple sperm you'd get twinning, or tripling, depending on how many sperm reached the egg simultaneously.
Gives new meaning to Bad Twin, eh?
Morning all!
amused- I wondered that too about multiple births- I would think it would be a possibility. Wonder if that will figure into the storyline anytime soon?
It is true about what you guys are saying about Sun. I wonder if her lies will eventually catch up with her though, since there is still a question with who the father is (at least by our calculations). Like TPTB said, it could be a mysterious other person, so maybe she's not out of the woods yet. She's kind of like Juliet- on one side she's nice and sort of meek, the other side she's a bully and murderer.
amused... you get multiple births when there is more than one egg fertilized. You could have a bagillion sperm but if only one egg is fertilized, only one baby is produced.
I think that Jin is the father, no question. Is it possible to tell from an ultrasound the exact DOC? Or is there a couple of days worth of margin or error? If that's the case, I think the math is fine.
I'm depending on those of you with some experience in the birthing department here!
melissa... having been through the process twice, I think there is room for a couple days error. My OB went by the last period but they can tell by the size of the baby on the ultrasound to estimate how far along you are. That was 12 years ago -- so much has changed since then.
wv: slivr -- sliver of hope they'll ever get off that godforsaken island!
Morning all! (Just have my coffee! LOL)
WOW, they don't give a show a chance! I was just getting into Drive...the fast cars didn't work for me, but the mystery did. Oh, well!
I don't think Juliet is preggers. She is the one person who really knows what conceiving on the island will do, so I'm sure she used those Dharma condoms with Goodwin.
Agree that there's more to Sun than the sweet persona she puts on, and she's had to live with the consequences of her actions. In my mind there's still a big questions as to who Jin's father is.
I'm going wit the flow and agree that Jin is the father of the baby. They made a big effort to stress dates, etc. to make the point (even if it's a little off timeline-wise)...unless, Juliet is lying (is that possible? LOL)
And, on one last note, I'm really enjoying the Juliet/Ben characters. Especially Juliet. Anytime you have someone that you can like, love, hate, despise, wonder about it's worth having around in the story.
Been wondering what kind of "samples" Juliet would be taking from the Lostettes. If it's the kind of info she got from examining Sun, I'd assume her sampling would be from pregnant women. It's not a stretch to believe Kate's pregnant, but when Juliet refers to the other "women," that would suggest there are other pregnant women we don't know about yet... I wonder who else could be with child? I'm lookin' at you Rose. Bernard, you dog! No wonder we haven't seen them lately.
LOL erich - if the tents a rockin', don't come a knockin'!
Here's a question - presumably, Juliette wants to find out if there are any other pregnant women, right? Why not just make an announcement - "I'm a fertility doctor. Women on this island have a lot of problems with pregnancy, and it could be life-threatening if you're pregnant. I've got a bag of pregnancy tests. Come pee on a stick." I'm sure every woman would want to be safe. Why all the sneaking around?
I still don't see how the women get pregnant at all given the womb problem that the x-ray from Not in Portland seemed to indicate. What if Juliet's research which involved impregnating a womb-less male mouse also bypasses a woman's womb which has been damaged by exposure to a strong electro-magnet?
We still don't know what kind of cancer her sister had. Could it have been uterine, the treament for which includes removal of the uterus?
Failure to be able to carry to term absent a womb would repeat what happened to the male mouse. If this is the case, then our LOSTies would presumably not be good candidates for Juliet's experiments unless that magnet works really, really fast. Maybe she'll be able to conclude if you get pregnant in the 1st 2 months you're on-Island (Sun) you're okay, but by 3 months (Kate) you're not. Years--forget it.
erich, that's hilarious. good for rose and bernard!!! there may be snow on the roof....well you know the rest.
Ha Ha Melissa_lossa. That would be like the Others coming and saying, one of us has a spinal tumor, would there be any spinal sugeons in your group? It's just too easy. :)
I'm hoping that it's something more than that. That there is some deep, dark secret "bad" people should not be allowed to know about. But the farther we go the less likely the answer is going to be satisfying.
I know, I know - too much to hope for, right memphish? :)
I'm trolling other LOST sites looking for ideas and came across this one:
why didn't juliet (and the others) know about sun's history -her affair- yet knows about everyone else?
This would lend more credence to Juliet lying about the DOC for her own purposes. If she knows Sawyer killed Duckett, why wouldn't she know about Jae Lee. After all Sun's dad did and as we saw in DOC, Korean investigators can do very good, very fast work. :)
Very good, Melissa_lossa! But, like Memphish said, it would just be too easy. No drama in that! They've got to keep us guessing...
Hi Peeps,
Good think-tanking today. :o)
I somehow cannot jump on the thought that Sun is such an evil person. I guess that I never really saw her as an innocent delicate flower to begin with. With the Asian custom thing, so much of the women who live under the traditional mores is very veiled and secret anyway. And they have to act in certain ways, and still somewhat subservient. So I just thought of her as being like that.
So far, I only see her as making the same stupid mistakes that everyone else makes. And I do like her tough side. But I didn't see her threatening Jin's mother as a bad thing. It seems like when you give in to blackmailing, they want more and more after they see you'll make the first payment. So Sun did the right thing to keep her from bleeding her of her (dad's) money. Just as she was paying her off, I was hoping that she would come up with a way to keep Jin's mother from coming back for more.
Thanks for the J.Wood notice!
The time frame (53 days) would also seem to lay to rest the "Charlie did it" theory, since he abducted her during Season 2, well after her D.O.C.
And, as has been mentioned, another mystery wasa cleared up -- the Losties actually DO talk to one another now and then!
memphish
That's a good point I've been wondering if Juliet knew about the affair. We've been wondering why she asked when the last time Sun and Jin were together maybe she just wanted to be sure Jin wouldn't be a candidate to be the father. She could be going to lie to Ben and say Sun concieved on island and that she cured her so she can get off the island. However I'm not sure Ben would trust her at her word without proof.
ib4uc said...
you get multiple births when there is more than one egg fertilized. You could have a bagillion sperm but if only one egg is fertilized, only one baby is produced.
This is only partly true. This is how you get fraternal twins. Identical twins come from one egg and one sperm but then the fertilized egg splits into two separate developing babies.
Of course this still doesn't mean that one egg could be fertilized by 2 different sperm, but on that island who knows what could happen? Although this probably would make a complicated storyline infinitely more complicated.
maven said...
I'm really enjoying the Juliet/Ben characters. Especially Juliet. Anytime you have someone that you can like, love, hate, despise, wonder about it's worth having around in the story.
I agree. Juliet is actually becoming my favorite character- evil and all! I was actually half way routing for her during the rumble in the jungle.
Again good point about why Juliet doesn't just come out and say she wants to help, but I'm thinking that there is a sinister reason behind the Other's deceitfulness.
memphish you bring up some good points- what if Rachel had uterine cancer and had had a hysterectomy? There is sooo much more to this story that they aren't revealing yet.
And- yeah why did they not know about Sun's past, considering how much they know about everyone else-or did they know and Juliet is just playing dumb for her own reasons. (Or maybe all the scoop on Sun and Jin were in Korean and Patchy doesn't know Korean! LOL)
Funny isn't it that this show has led us down a path discussing everything we know about menstrual cycles and conception! three years ago, we just thought it was odd that a polar bear was on a tropical island!
capcom
I dont think Sun is evil, she's just tougher than I thought.
When her father gave her his terms for giving her the money I thought oh Sun don't do it. I guess protecting Jin's honor was more important to her than condeming Jin to a life of violence.
engineer27
I've always assumed the Losties talked to each other. Like TPTB said it would get boring after awhile hearing the story being repeated to each individual. I guess they finally found a way to get around that a please those who say they never talk to one another. Not to say they share everything they don't.
that should be and please not a please.
I did find on wikipedia, so take it for what you will, that apparently there's been recent confirmation of non-identical twins which is 1 egg, 2 sperm which makes their mom's half of their DNA the same, but dad's different. I guess that may be a possibility with the Island's super sperm.
Memphish
There are also chimeras to consider. I was looking at some different links on this after the Not in Portland episode. There was a better site than this one but I can't find it now.
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=412
scoutpost... thanks for the clarification. I forgot to add the part about identical twins.
Actually it wasn't after Lost in Portland, it was after One of Us. Sorry about that. It was because there was a screen cap of Rachel's medical records that Ben had given Juliet that said Rachel was a 5' 11" 187 pound male.
You know what I just got to thinking that my post really didn't make any sense. You guys are talking about multiple births and chimeras has nothing to do with that other than it involves twins. Sorry.
Sayid's girl, that is seriously freaky.
wv=quwpig
Sayid's Girl, Since when do things have to relate? This is LOST we're talking about. The more tangent the better. :D
Thanks memphish
And yes that is pretty freaky.
question for the group. I will have to rewatch the epi again, but didn't Juliett stop the recorder before she say "I hate you" to Ben. I'm pretty sure she did.
I thought the point of the scene was to illustrate that Juliett is complying with Ben's wishes and plan, but she really doesn't care for Ben and his tactics.
I think there is a theme starting to emerge in Season 3. Selfishness.
It started out by Ben selfishly wanting to save himself, and now has transformed into everyone's personal quest on the island.
Desmond has obviously thoght selfishly of himself since catch 22 and not of others, Juliett selfishly wants off the island, Jack selfishly wanted to orhestrate his plan of rescue, locke selfishly going with the others, and I'm sure there are more.
Seems the focus is turning from live together die alone, to go your own way no matter what the circumstances.
Great theme analysis Diggity Dirge. I think you're definitely on the right track.
You might also argue that we've seen reversals of characters in this aspect. In the beginning, Locke, Jack, arguably Ben were the ones providing for their groups, looking out for their groups often at personal costs be it merely in time or preference. And Desmond was saving the entire world at personal cost to himself. Sawyer, Charlie, maybe others were more concerned with their own problems. Now they take a broader view even if it just encompasses one or two extra persons. Jin's gone from EMFH and wife to being a real group contributor. Hurley and Sayid have both seemed to stay group focused. Whether you are LTDA or EMFH is definitely a question we could ask of everyone on the Island.
Interesting ideas about selfishness. If I had to choose a theme for this season, it would be "Perspective." Introducing us to the Others humanized them. Even though some of them (Ben especially) act badly, we can't really say they're worse than our Losties. They way the Others have treated the Losties makes sense when you look at things from their perspective.
The whole idea that the Others see the Losties as murderers, junkies and thugs unworthy of their righteous community is hard to swallow at first. Then you realize our heroes are murderers, junkies and thugs—and not just before they came to the island. Desmond said it best when he reminded Charlie that they had killed more Others than they had Losties.
Diggity, while I agree that selfishness is a huge problem, and that by not "living together" we're moving towards further conflict, I think Desmond has acted more selflessly than most. He chose to save Charlie (again), risking his chance to reunite with Penny. And it was his self-sacrifice in last year's finale that saved everyone from whatever would have happened to the hatch.
And I definitely think Juliet turned off the recorder before she told Ben she hates him. It was one of the few moments we got to see the real her, not putting on a face for someone else. It made me think there's hope for her after all.
Well, I don't really think that Sun knew how Jin was going to have to be beholding to her father, i.e, in a life of organized crime and/or violence. I thought that she looked fairly surprised when Jin came home that night covered in blood. She might have just assumed that Jin would have to work for Paik for the rest of his life in some capacity. Albeit, in indentured servitude. :o) Her intentions this ep seemed genuine to me; to honor the promise that she made to Jin's dad, and to keep Jin from being hurt by his past.
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