Tonight, on a very special Lost, Richard Alpert has a difficult decision to make.
Finally, the Richard-centric episode we've always dreamed of! And with a cast of interesting guest stars to boot.
Plus, one of the coolest promo shots I've seen.
Here's one last hint: Ab Aeterno is Latin for "since the beginning of time."
Tuesday, March 23, 2010
Ab Aeterno - Season 6, Episode 8
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538 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 538 Newer› Newest»@ Amy Lynn- yes, I guess she could have said it earlier. I still have the felling it was a choice for effect though.
Maybe a Darlton podcast question!
JT
I think Isabella just wanted to comfort Richard. Then talked to Hurley about what he needed to do.
We definitely need a translation for what Hurley was saying when Jack asked him what he was saying.
CONCRETE - I was wondering that too. Maybe Hurley isn't really seeing dead people. He's seeing Jacob impersonating dead people. MIB can appear to anyone, but Jacob can only appear to those with the ability to see - maybe a gift that he was given by being touched earlier? But then again, is that too much of a complicated twist at this point in the season when there's still so much left to unravel?
I just fail to see the logic of the whole master plan I think.
Okay, if Jack and his buddies hadn't taken Locke's body back to the island, MIB couldn't have posessed it.
So, the idea that Widmore and Ellie thought that getting Locke's body back to the island or 'God help up all'. . .just doesn't line up.
There was a candidate on the island already - Sawyer - and possibly Jin.
So the very fact that the O6 got away should have pointed to the fact that maybe they weren't the right candidates.
Why not let things play out naturally?
Jin is willing to stay on the island just to know that his wife and child are safe from harm.
He's willing to stay there just to keep them safe - he seems like the best candidate to me of them all.
And yet, Widmore and Ellie just assume that they have to get Locke's body back there? And the O6?
Obviously we're still missing some key piece of information that's going to tie all this together.
But at the moment. . .I'm at a bit of a loss.
I would just stop theorizing about it, and just enjoy it. At this point theorizing doesnt make much sense anymore.
I noticed that i enjoy it much more if i just watch and let the answers come to me.
Lost2010 - I don't think they needed to get Locke's body back. They had to get the O6 back. They needed as many candidates as possible. Locke's body was just a tool to mimic the conditions of the first flight. Locke's body was a "Substitute" for Christian Shephard's body.
Since Sun didn't flash with the rest of them, though, I'm assuming that Jin is the candidate and not Sun. But they didn't know for sure which one, so they brought her back too.
But since they really only need 1 candidate ultimately - why not let the rest of them go home and live their lives? Must they all die and go off to the X-verse?
And if so, we'd have to assume that none of our losties is the ultimate candidate because we saw all of them in the x-verse.
It would have to be someone who didn't go off to the x-verse - wouldn't it?
Yeah, but I didn't enjoy this one - so I fall back on theorizing.
I thoroughly enjoyed Recon so I didn't feel the need to theorize that week. :)
Memphish, Lost2010, I'm with you in opinion.
However... I'll offer this...
Jacob's not interfering= free will...
(but with some advice (a counselor of sorts).)
I wish there were more "hands on" interference by the "good guy" in Life and LOST---and less freewill sometimes (I'd make fewer mistakes!) But I can see it in concept... "If you love someone, set them free", "You can't make someone love you" "You can't change someone." Etc...these are all acts of will.
Now... the post ship trauma...well, I have trouble with that in life and LOST too.. Maybe this whole epi was too close to a current situation in real life for me and in addition to what is, imo the absolute perversion of grace and forgiveness (tough to get beyond that scene for me)... this ep is just not sitting right. I'm with you Memphish, I could consider a break up depending on the direction taken next. But for now, will press on...
LostIt--- I was thinking Job too.... the ultimate test of faith... the reference fits. I (and many) fall short of that challenge in real life...the LOST references fit as well.
Richard believed he was doomed to Hell... it was the only way Jacob could offer him relief from that. So, we know that Jacob is limited.
Smokey killed what are probably slave traders who had no conscience and/or had nothing they wanted/loves. In Richard, he saw Isabella, something he could use.
Beyond that, I'm at a loss as well. I missed some parts of the ep that i'll rewatch... (I think)... and I'll look forward to reading what the rest of you think.
The only thing that I really don't buy is that the wooden ship took out that huge, cement statue.
Also, if we think of "since the beginning of time"- MIB was a liar (or so it seems)
(Ok, Job was not the ULTIMATE test of faith...so I have to retract that small part... but, it was a massive test of faith and loyalty)
lost2010 - After a candidate is chosen, they only need one. Until that time. They need as many as possible because MIB is trying to kill them. For me the question is - who's choosing? Or does a candidate have to choose to accept the role of his/her own free will? If that's the case, they all have to be kept alive until someone chooses the role.
I want to know who made up the rules.
Lost It- I just re-read your catch on the little house reference for Richard and Isabella.... good one! I think (hope) that's what she meant too.
Amy Lynn
I assumed it was the tidal wave that took out the statue. Even though the Black Rock did hit it.
TOL - it sounds like you've been going through some tough times. Hang in there.
I guess I was thinking that fate was choosing the candidate.
Burke dies - okay she gets lined out - it's not her destiny to be the one.
Pace dies - okay not him.
Pickett dies - okay not him.
By that logic, the very fact that Jack, Kate, Sayid, Aaron, Sun, and Desmond got off the island would suggest to me that they were not the right candidate.
Although I do know intellectually that Jack will probably be 'the one' in the end. . .if I were just a standard issue Other like Widmore. . .I would have thought that the ones who actually stayed on the island were more likely to be the destined one.
and dont forget, the statue is old.
If you think about some of the condominiums down on the coast that get taken out in a hurricane. . .it's not really that big a stretch to assume the storm got the statue and the ship just sort of glanced off it.
That part I actually didn't have a problem with. :)
LostIt- Ahhh... didn't mean to sound so much of a downer... ;-) But yeah, the episode hits a spot, where sadness and grief meets faith and trust in grace. Much thanks for the thought. You all have actually been a great distraction the last 2 months....
The rest as far as wishing the "good guy" would interfere... well, that's just live, love, and learn that we've all likely had, and if not we've all watched the news and wondered "why".... (and if not either of those, we've learned by listening to a whole bunch of Sting songs! Sing with me, "you can't control an independent heart.... free, free, set them free....")
TOL - don't worry, you didn't sound like a downer.
In addition to the "free will" aspect of things, I also thought of the "prime directive" in Star Trek (which most likely was modeled after the free will concept). The rule was put in place with the idea that interfering inevitably did more overall harm than good.
Hope things get better TOL.
I think I'm watching NCIS next week myself. :) Gibbs may not be as flashy as Jacob - but he's consistent.
Man has rules. . .
Oh wait. . .maybe they are similar after all. :)
Things will be ok... eventually, they were even so for Job (speaking of!). Thanks.
The rule was put in place with the idea that interfering inevitably did more overall harm than good.
Interesting LostIt...
Lost2010-- I was torn this week and actually caught more NCIS than Recon! I have been catching NCIS OnDemand (have you gotten into NCISLA?)
I have never got the point of complaining about something you dont even know yet......
So. When Richard goes to meet young Locke in the 1950s, is it because he thinks Locke is the best candidate to replace Jacob, or replace HIM?
AL, I think it was to replace Jacob.
Someone asked about whehter Hanso was on the Black Rock when it crashed. I'm rewatching now. After the crash, the crew says that Captain Hanso is dead. So he was on the ship and he died on the island from the crash.
That's a good question, really, AL. It seems that Richard holds such hope about Locke being the 'one', The one for the next Other's leader. And he keeps looking for signs that John does have what it takes, but is disappointed every time. I think this is all part of MIB's loophole that he's been working on for a lonnng time. It was 1954 that Richard first heard from Locke himself that he was the Other's leader in the future, right? So, Richard follows that, but I don't think he knows anything about candidates for either Jacob or MIB. At least that's what he said at the beginning of the season.
I wonder why sometimes Smokie seems to just go on a rampage and kill a bunch of ppl like a vacuum cleaner goes after dust, but then sometimes it takes time to 'read' somebody. Any ideas?
BS, you got me rethinking my response to AL about why Richard was checking out Locke. Maybe it was just to see who the next leader would be (like a Ben or a Dogen). But then again, the test to pick out what is "already yours" sounds like a bigger deal than a leader. It sounds more like a Jacob replacement but as you said, Richard didn't know anything about the candidates, so... I dunno. I'm stumped.
Yeah, I've wondered about the randomness of Smokey's killings, too. Maybe there's a "vibe" that he gets from someone before doing them in and decides to scan them first to see whether they're useful to him or not.
Just finished watching. I'm still very committed to this until the end. Very interesting that some of you didn't like this episode and maybe where the story is heading. A lot of explaining still needs to be done, but I trust Darlton to get us to a satisfactory ending.
I'm very hesitant at this point of the game to try to figure anything out anymore, and just go with the flow. I think I'm just tired of trying to second-guess everything.
The thing that does bother me about Jacob (good?) is that he does seem so callous about what he is doing to people lives as he plays his game with MIB (evil?). I agree letting Richard suffer so much in the chains (not sure how much time passed there)was a pretty rotten thing to do. It left him vulnerable to manipulation by MIB.
I still want to know whose body was MIB using?
And, if Jacob is the one who lured the Black Rock to the island, where did that major storm come from? We last saw the ship on a sunny, calm day. Then it was night and they were in a horrible storm that creates such a wave that puts them in the jungle?
Well I didn't finish watching the show until a few minutes ago...kids to bed and all that jazz...will be back after I catch up on comments. Can't believe only 7 more episodes until the finale. I think it's starting to finally sink in... Seriously don't know what I'm going to do with myself once it's over.
Lostit, I think it's confusing because Richard was just going by what Ben said that Jacob was telling him sometimes. It doesn't sound like Richard really had very much opportunity to speak with Jacob really. Jacob comes to you, you don't go to Jacob, right? So, we don't know if Ben's lying, and we don't know if it really was Jacob or MIB that was telling Ben these things, assuming Ben wasn't lying ALL the time. We still don't know much.. LOL! We don't even know when all of a sudden there was a need for a leader of the others and when this happened. So, are there any original inhabitants of the Island? Did Elly and Charles get there in 1954 or before that? Did Jacob just keep touching more and more people and that's why all of a sudden this hierarchy of leaders was needed? idk
Ok I'm only about half way through comments, but here are my thoughts so far....just ignore it if it's been said already.
Memphish- so sorry you're not liking this last season...maybe they'll tie it all up satisfactorily for you.
Luke 4:37 is at the end of a passage about Jesus casting a demon out of a man. Jesus healing Simon's MIL is the passage after that, but v.37 belongs to the demon passage...
I thought it was incredibly sad what that priest said to Richard about having to earn forgiveness...the look on Richard's face was so despondent. :(
I thought the officer on the BR killed the men below deck as a sort of mercy killing. He clearly stated he couldn't let them go...but I thought it was supposed to be merciful to just stab them instead of letting them starve/dehydrate to death. I do agree that he jumped the gun though.
I understand the reservations with Jacob's behavior...he is not clearcut “good” obviously...but there's something about the way he speaks that makes me not trust him fully. Like he's not telling the whole truth...or maybe even downright lying. I feel like after tonite I have a pretty good idea of who/what MIB is, but I don't feel the same way about Jacob. I think they're going to drop a bomb about him somewhere down the line.
Maybe Richard leaked Hanso's ship journal to the real world on one of his trips to the “real world”. But why would he do that? Did Jacob need Widmore to find the island?
But that leaves me to wonder when did Richard and Jacob begin leaving the island...and how did they do it?
Has Jacob always searched out who he was going to bring to the island? Has he always touched the people he brought there? I guess he's been on a quest to find candidates all along? But if they are merely to replace him...why does Jacob need replacing? What would he have done if he'd found a candidate 100 years ago...would they have just hung around until 2007 when MIB killed Jacob, or would Jacob have left/disappeared/whatever back then? There just seemed to be a finality with our candidates, why now? Did he know MIB had found the loophole?
I will say that although I don't agree with TPTB theology/philosophy that they seem to be spouting...I really enjoy that this show is an allegory of sorts, or metaphor may be a better term. It's rich with fate vs. free will, God vs Satan, Job, Revelation- type analogies, although like I said, I don't think they are an actual accurate Biblical interpretation (but I don't think they necessarily mean to be....nor do they have to be....) You just don't see that kind of deep thinking with other TV shows.
Well it's late and don't think I have anything else to add (that last post was a doozy).
I will say that at the end of these episodes I get kind of excited at what they're revealing, thinking we're getting answers...only to realize later that really, we aren't. :o
Good Morning All
I really liked this episode. But I’ve always liked the mythology parts of the show the most. I can still care about the characters within the mythology. I prefer them on the island rather than off.
This episode strengthen my belief that the flash sideways aren’t real they’re to vanilla and hollow. Everybody is happy or at least accepting and that’s not reality. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Is Richard the one who started saying it’s what Jacob wants? Is he making the decisions and using Jacob’s name to carry them out? Richard decided to take Ben to the temple and when Widmore challenged him Richard said it was what Jacob wanted.
Black Swan
I was wondering the same thing. Why are there a group of people on the island now? Did Richard ask to have company or was it his guidance that kept them alive. Because before this it seemed MIB was killing everyone that came to the island. But of course it only ends once everything else is progress. So maybe the more people who chose not to kill and destroy the more of them survived on the island and they needed a leader. I’m still not sure how they’re chosen. But someone was ordering Richard to kill people in the '50s, he told Daniel he was forced to kill the Army personnel. I wonder what happened with the DI that allowed them to have a truce?
scoutpost said...
I will say that although I don't agree with TPTB theology/philosophy that they seem to be spouting...I really enjoy that this show is an allegory of sorts, or metaphor may be a better term. It's rich with fate vs. free will, God vs Satan, Job, Revelation- type analogies, although like I said, I don't think they are an actual accurate Biblical interpretation (but I don't think they necessarily mean to be....nor do they have to be....) You just don't see that kind of deep thinking with other TV shows.
Well said scoutpost. We can’t take this show literally but at face value. Plus it is sci -fi they’ve said that more than once. So it doesn’t have to based in reality.
I still haven't re watched yet. I'll be back when I have.
Good morning!
The flash sideways could be extremely important in terms of what it cork in the bottle is doing in that reality. I bet something yet to be revealed is terribly wrong.
Jacob's touch: Given that Jacob only made Richard immortal when he asked for it, Jacob's determination not to interfere, and Jacob's request to Ilana that she guard the candidates, I would guess that Jacob has not made them immortal without their permission. But then why didn't the dynamite go off?
Widmore: Widmore isn't your run-of-the-mill other. He was kicked off the island. Why? It has been said of Widmore that he wants everyone on the island to die. The same has been said of MIB. Thinking as a writer, I think these are clues that Widmore and MIB are either on the same team or will end up on the same team (never mind the new sonic fence). Wouldn't that throw a wrench in Sawyer's plans?!
I was thinking this morning about the scene in Man Behind the Curtain, where Richard talks to Ben about seeing his dead mother, Emily, on the island. Brings a whole new perspective, now that we know about Isabella.
oh wow. That was such a mixed bag of an episode, but on the whole I am determined to savor every second of the remaining LOST, so I loved it. Already watched it twice.
Random thots:
-guyliner closeup! lol
-oh, so *that's* why the statue broke!
-kill the cargo! yeah that was standard procedure for slave ships that ran into trouble. It was a loss of precious cargo, but it wasn't as if they were people, right? And they consumed rations, no sense keeping them alive if you were not sure of how long rescue would take, and you did not want to take the chance that you would get to know them as people (get attached, so to speak). Kill them now before they can turn on you, and it's more humane than letting them starve and rot in the ship's hold.
-no absolution? argh that makes me angry, but then I realized what time period they are in. Even today it's not uncommon to hear a minister say that God forgives but only on condition: that you work off your debt of sin with works (including a hefty donation to the Lords' Work ie the church.)That really makes me upset because it's not what the Bible has to say about it.
-very cool Hurley this ep. Getting some friggin' answers!
-lol Ben! I can't wait for the final showdown. He's still got a plan, I'm sure of it!
-final six names...the O6? Reyes, Shepherd, Ford, Austen, Jarrah and Littleton (Aaron)? hmmmmm
be back later!
About philosophy, I was pondering this while I was sleeping way too much. Even though Lost is fiction, this shook me up deeply. I can't imagine a life where the most powerful and most trustworthy person available is so stand offish. What would it be like for the being that allowed you free will did not also love you and long to have an intimate relationship with you? What would it be like to not be able to talk to him or only hear what he wanted to through nebulous intermediaries?
Lost may be fiction but there are people who feel that way about God. In contrast, God is very close and personal to me. I feel like, through identifying with these fictional characters, I've tasted what life would be like to not have a loving God, and I'm horrified.
Morning,
earlier comments;
1. the killing of the slaves was shocking and premature but i understood his twisted logic.
2. i understand the frustration with the priest nor forgiving ricardo, but a priest that would sell people into slavery is not an honest priest to begin with so i took the whole conversation as a scam to see if he could get paid.
the medicine that richard got from the doctor have we seen that bottle before, it looked familiar
jacob granted eternal life to richard, for some reason i think he may have also turned mib into smokey. no proof just a random thought.
the more jacob talks the more i dont trust his intentions. and i dont know if i could work for a guy that never invited me into his giant foot.
Oh no. Blogger is giving me weird comment counts again. Hopefully I won't lose this.
BigDog - MIB implied to Richard that Jacob turned him into Smokey. It reminded me of trapping a genie in a bottle. Now if Aladdin would just wish for MIB's freedom we could get back to, well, I'm not sure what we would get back to, but I think the more this turns into the Jacob/MIB story the less engaged I become.
i didnt catch that memphish. but i have to agree with jacob/mib story. it just doesnt seem right that ultimately its all about them and everyone that lives or dies are just pawns in their game.
although i would like to know if mib has a name.
Good Morning!
Finished reading further thoughts here-
Twinkle-No worries as to Jacob's compassion=God's compassion I think. I mean, yes, he may represent in that he seems to be against evil, but he is not really all knowing and all understanding, he just isn't infinite enough.
As to no absolution- guess that is the reason why Richard did not want to die. He did not want to go to hell, but ended up living it instead.
Jacob's last words seem now to clearly mean Jack and the other candidates coming back to 2007.
Isabella saying that she and Richard are already together reminds me of Juliette telling Sayer it worked-and the idea of them going Dutch for coffee. Which may mean that Hurley's dead people ARE coming from an f/side where those things are true. I like that better than the idea that the f/side is going to turn into a nightmare with MIB rampaging, and that Jacob is shapeshifting as Hurley's dead people.
I still want to know how Richard knows he can die. He told Jacob that he didn't want to die ever, and Jacob said that he would grant that "wish".
Such an amazing,defining episode.
I wasn't able to see it all until this morning.
Last night my computer was acting up again. There's a darkness growing inside it................
Then half way through Lost, our cable went out; much to my dismay. Unable to watch,or comment,I went to bed early.
Now,I have all of your glorious comments to look forward to; as my computer was able to struggle to it's feet once again.
I am a Ricabella fan.They brought tears to my eyes.
Plenty of answers.I loved "The Candidate Talk".Who is #'6? That's for TPTB to know,and us to figure out.
Great metaphore of the cork in the bottle.
I am in Lost heaven.
Two interesting things from Lostpedia
1) The Monster then appeared and advanced threateningly while Eko began to recite the 23rd Psalm, as before. This time, however, it attacked him, beating him into trees and then slamming him into the ground. Locke found the brutally beaten Eko who, before he passed away, whispered into Locke's ears. If listened to closely Eko can be heard faintly saying "I saw the devil". Sayid asked what Eko’s final words were, to which Locke replied, "We're next." ("The Cost of Living")
2) If you put "devil" into the search engine at Lostpedia, it redirects to Jacob.
1. mib using the cross with richard was a nice commentary about how religion can be manipulated by both good and evil. or like with the middle east both sides thinks the other side is the devil.
2. i get the feeling that when jacob was eating his fish mib had just won the latest round with jacob. Mib said he just ate like he eats the souls. I think besides the time flashers jacob and mib are the only ones on the island at this point.
3. i think mib cant go on the beach in smoke form, but he got lucky or planned to have the black rock in the middle of the forest right off the bat. That wasy he could kill them right away. He seemed to give the 815 pilot treatment to everyone but ricardo.
4. in order for the black rock to be brought to the island jacob must have already touched people aboard.
5. i think that number 4 relates to mib double meaning about what he said to richard. the obvious meaning was that jacob took his wife and he tried to stop him. Which seems like a lie even though mib doesnt seem to lie. I think Mib was saying that richards getting touched by jacob is what killed his wife. Just like jacob let nadia die to influence sayid. MIB .meant he tried to save her, when richard raged out and stole the medicine. he was channeling evil or the darkside or mib. Obviously some evil gets off the island, but the island keeps a lid on it. i presume the world would end much faster if mib gets loose
6 i assume the black rock was brought there just for richard.
7. i assume richard was a candidate
8 i liked how jacob gave richard communion after his baptism
9 i assume the storm had enough power to fell the statue, i dont think the ship would still be in one piece.
10. i think jacob created the timeloop to maximize his last handful of candidates, and that loophole probably infuriated mib, because he saw no end in sight
11. i still dont know if jacob gives specific gifts to candidates with his touch or not aging on the island is a part of the candidate jacob's touch package.
12. jacob, mib, and kate can all be very persuasive, didn't mars act like if she talks to you it's already over
Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't necessarily think the ship we saw in The Incident HAD to be the Black Rock. It was just a representative of what any large ship at that time would have looked like.
jacob can only offer dead loved ones back to people that came after the timeloop was created. He offered dogen his son back because that was possible to do in the timeframe of the black rock to 1977, but he couldnt offer richard his wife back because the time loop doesn't go back that far. The catch to mib's promises and jacobs about returning dead loved ones is the "you" in the alt timeline isn't the same you because you dont remember the other timeline
@2costa, we don't know for a fact that Jacob offered Dogen his son back. We know someone who said their name was Jacob offered that.
I think it probably was Jacob, because we've never seen MIB off-island, but you never know.
that was definitely the black rock in the incident the storm happened because they were crossing the magnetic barrier. I think it was added to by locke turning the donkey wheel right at that moment. remember miles saw the tarawet statue right before john turned the wheel
and put dogen in charge of the temple, im pretty sure it was jacob, because jacob recruited dogen off island not on
I think last night confirmed that The Incident ship was probably NOT The Black Rock, but it doesn't matter one way or the other. It always goes the same, and only ends once.
To Twinkle and all those who had as much of a hard time with the "forgiveness" portion as I did...
An offline friend helped me a bit with this view: Richard had to have NOTHING to loose, nothing to gain, had to have no hope of a good outcome....and still make the a choice for what he believed to be "good" even when "evil" may have been more attractive.
BigDog.. I thought the same, the priest was crooked to begin with, the next day he was happy to sell Alpert to certain death. He is no less a murderer himself- and he got paid for it. Add in the time period, and finally, add in that many faiths actually do believe what the priest said...but I don't have to.....I only have to accept that it was used as a story telling tool to create a desperate character... the rewatch may be easier to frame. (take away my ability to be forgiven, I'd be desperate too....therein lies the whole point of needing a Savior)
Scoutpost- you are right that the theology/ storyline does not have to be biblical, or adhere to anyone's personal belief system, its TV. It just felt like a whack with a sledgehammer as I had been able to identify with so much of this season from a faith point of view- and found it exciting.
BigDog and Memphish, I agree, if in the end we find that our S1-5 characters are nothing but secondary stories... it would be disappointing unless done extremely well.
JT- Yep. I think living forever = avoidance of hell for Richard. Though, through this, we see that Jacob-- is unable to grand Richard's other requests. The one thing I took from this is: We know now, Jacob, himself, even while "alive" is limited.
Interesting comments everyone! Also, those facts you just posted AL.
Didn't the thing about RA going to visit Little Locke turn out to be a circular thing with MIB as Flocke, and the time skipping that RA got mixed up in the details about? I can't remember it exactly, but I thought that Flocke told RA about himself being the leader or that Locke had to die to be leader (or something like that), then the time skipping happened, RA told Locke his fate in the recent present and that he had to die to be leader, time skipped to 1954 and Locke told RA the news that he would be the leader, which sent RA into the world later to search for and test Locke, resulting in nothing, because Locke wasn't really supposed to be the leader just MIB's vessel, etc. As in, it was all just a big circular time skipping con/mistake all because MIB planted the thought into RA and Locke's head of all the Locke-as-leader BS, all for his loophole mission. Whew.
2costa i presume the world would end much faster if mib gets loose
I like this... thus the Valenzetti equation comes back into play (possibly)... with our Variables (together or any one of them) being the cork.
Capcom- I think your recap is spot on... MIB created his own loophole by manipulating the real time skipping Locke (AND ALPERT) as Flocke
I do think I've finally resigned myself to the storytelling methods this season; if we don't get any more answers, then we don't get any more answers. The season is now half over. I'm just enjoying what we've got left.
I do think I've finally resigned myself to the storytelling methods this season; if we don't get any more answers, then we don't get any more answers. The season is now half over. I'm just enjoying what we've got left.
TIME LOOP= LOOP HOLE
what about last night makes it seem like it wasnt the black rock in the incident? when you cross the barrier day becomes night and a storm accompanies, see frank flying desmond and sayid off island in chopper
@2costa, it COULD be, I guess. But not definitive one way or the other. They were purposefully vague both in The Incident and Ab Aeterno.
Great comments to all! I just don't get why our Losties are such special candidates. They all have baggage and issue and are seeking redemption themselves. What makes a good candidate anyway? And how long has this candidate search been going on? Only since Jacob realized that MIB was working on his loophole plot? Otherwise, people were lured to the island to be used as a social experiment? Reminds me of Stephen King's latest novel, "Under The Dome" (I'm reading it now and I don't want to spoil anyone, so that's all I can say). It's almost two kids trapping ants or bugs under a glass and watching what happens to them.
We have invested so much over the last 5 1/2 years in our main characters...I hope this just doesn't come down to Jacob vs MIB.
Tx, TOL, I thought that maybe I had dreamed that I saw/heard all that. :-B
BTW, hope that things go better for you soon TOL.
@maven, I agree about how much we've invested in our LOSTies but I think the storytelling has made it very clear since The Incident, if not before, that the final episodes will be about the war on the island.
its also seeming more and more like sinking the island is jacob's plan. if the water can wash off mib's touch then maybe the water can trap him on the island forever. it goes with the notion that jacob is to water as mib is to smoke. I did wonder if jacob had a smoke form too.
i think richard came to the island when mib was dominant, which probably gave mib more leeway in just killing people like at the temple. thats why jacob gave the rock back to mib. to show him that balance was back. i think the stones are more than just an inside joke they are part of the game.
Interesting Maven about the SK book.
I was just thinking the other day that Jacob seems kind of like St. Jude, protector/friend/patron saint of lost causes, because our candidates sure do seem as if they are at that lost cause point in their lives and that's when they come to the island.
capcom
I agree with you. MIB planted the seed with Richard by telling Locke he had to die. Which had Locke telling Richard in the '50s he was the leader, which made Richard believe this to a point. Which led Richard to ask Jack about Locke i the '70s which led to Jack telling Richard he wouldn't count Locke out. :)
The 6 are the ones they've always been. Reyes, Ford, Jarrah, Shephard, and Kwon. Locke was already dead when he went to Ilana. Since he touched both Sun and Jin I'm guessing they both count. I wonder why he left out Kate? She's probably important, just like Ilana told Bram about Frank just because he may not be a candidate doesn't mean he not important. That's not an exact quote of course.
i think mib might be the gatekeeper to hell, so generally bad people come to the island and get consumed by mib, i think jacob manipulated the losties to make them seem more evil to trick mib. sawyer and kate look way worse on paper than they are in life.
i think it also makes sense that jacob has the others kill lots of people because he doesn't want mib's ranks to swell with bad people, so jacob has the others judge them to kill the worst peopel right away. the others are like jacob's priests, priest sometimes get drunk with their seeming authority.
So, okay, who are the only non-island ghosts we've seen on the island (people who died who we KNOW didn't die on island?) Emily & Isabelle. So it's interesting that both Richard and Ben have been "in charge" of the Others at certain points.
I would REALLY, REALLY like it if we saw Locke see Helen on the island.
i think illana knows who the sixth candidate is. jacob was purposely ambiguous with the kwons to trick mib or confuse. kate was still a candidate in the lighthouse. kate to me is seeming like the darkhorse jacob candidate. Funny how sun assumes she a candidate even though illanna didn't tell her that.
i think jacob might have also had jack destroy the lighthouse mirrors because as of now jack doesn't know about his son and how much the island has cost him. Mib could have used david as a tool to recruit jack.
i think illanna didn't tell bram who the candidates are because she wanted to quell his bloodlust. Important and candidates are 2 differnt things. Richard is no longer a candidate but still very important. I think anyone can kill jacob or mib with the dagger if he doesnt speak first, but only certain people can kill them once contact is made. It will take one of mib's recruits to kill him at this point.
perhaps dave was a ghost
You know how a lot of people really want Kate to be the ace in the hole stealth candidate of sorts, well I think she might be because she is the one most like Jacob. Jacob brings people to the Island thinking he's giving them this fresh start, but turns out most of them don't want/can't embrace this fresh start and resort to their old selves which ends in all the bad stuff MIB laid out on the beach and ultimately death.
It's like Kate killing her father for her mother. Kate's sure she's doing the right thing for her mom, but it's not at all what her mom wants, it's what Kate wants.
Jacob = Kate
Dave isn't a ghost. He never existed.
i also think montand was killed when his arm was ripped off and mib turned into him right away and told everyone he was ok and to come down in the catacomb
i agree memphis, thats why they are both described as very persuasive. i think ben or sawyer would be the best jacob in they way they can do these long cons.
i really dont think dave is hurley's imaginary friend, who is to say he never existed.
i wonder why richard looked like modern richard in the 1950's, but looked like black rock richard in the 1970's when he saw ben in the forest, that beard seemed real. i think this will all come back to time travel. i wonder if richards stubble stopped growing when jacxob touched him.
Happy Birthday, Amy Lynn! :)
@2costa, again, I just go by what the creators of the show tell us. They have said, "Dave is Hurley's imaginary friend"
i wonder if smokey started of as an egyptian god, because he really is a protector, thats what the glyphs said under ben's house.
i wonder if locke has to wear black now?
i accept that amylnn, i just wonder now how much the producers are like jacob or mib. they arent above tricking us, remember all the fake endings like different people in the coffin. If it led to a great ending i wouldnt mind if tptb lied to us now and again. there is something about lost breaking the fourth wall and involving us in the action, like killing nikki and paulo for us or having sawyer call the barracks newotherton
Happy Birthday Amy Lynn!
the producers before said time travel wasn't part of it and they said purgatory was not it, but time travel is in play and at least for some the island seems a lot like purgatory.
i wonder if witfield is related to widmore.
as far as i know alvar hanso just owned the black rock. he wasn't necessarily on it
i like how richards learning english was like sun and came in very handy
happy bday amylynn.
also i know a few of you mentioned it last night. but when the started talking about being dead and in hell i immediately thought of chuckelz
Happy Birthday Amy Lynn!
I've heard some in other places describe it as a Hellmouth, Hell's Mouth, something like that. I don't really know what that means, but I guess it's been used in other shows.
Thanks for all the birthday wishes. :)
Sorta OT, but if they ever do turn Tom Sawyer Island to LOST Island at Walt Disney World, there had better be a Black Rock shipwreck ride, where you think you're going to crash into the giant statue, and then go OVER it, riding on the tidal wave.
Why do you think they gave us Whitfield instead of Hanso? That seemed super lame.
hellmouth is from buffy
Me too Amy Lynn-hope you have a fun party today!
Re Locke & Helen- when he first tried to catch a boar and was knocked down- didn't he mumble "Helen"? as though he had seen her?
2 costa said think jacob might have also had jack destroy the lighthouse mirrors because as of now jack doesn't know about his son and has cost him. Mib could have used david as a tool to recruit jack.,
Very interesting.....if it turns out to be true or not!
and excellent point about Richard's english parralleling Jins.... there are many similarities about Rickabella and Sun/Jin.
I was here during the Chucklez/purgatory debates in 07 (I think, I was just "lisa" back then!)
;-) 2c, you had the same avi then as you do now! This is a good community... you'll have to think of a post-lost way to keep this up! My "tough time" is walking out a terminal illness with a loved one....barring a miracle, only faith and grieving when the time comes will make things "better" (also why episode slammed me last night!) But in the meantime, you all have been a great vigil company. Much thanks.
Have to say, for people who have stopped analyzing and who are split 50/50 on the episode... this board is busy for a Thursday afternoon!
I love, love, love the possiblity of Kate being the Ace in the hole.
Happy Birthday Amy Lynn.
OT- I'm about to try and buy tickets on Ticketmaster for the Jack & Jay Lost party. Anyone have any advice?
@JT, you're 48 hours early. Tickets go on "sale" (not really a sale, since they are free) 1pm EST Friday
I've registered with TM, have synchronized my computer, made the location Los Angeles.
Oh- AL- did they change the time again? I did not see that on Twitter at all.
rob of dark ufo pointed out that richard was from the canary islands. i guess they worshiped dogs on the canary islands, vincent anyone.
i wonder if at times where mib is dominant on the scale island if the outside world shows more evil. The black rock seemed to come to the island right around the end of the civil war. was that a result of mib getting the upper hand. was hitler a result of mib having a good run on the island in 1935-1945
@JT, from JayandJack's twitter:
Tickets for final party.Avble Friday March 26th 10am PT Ticketmaster Search Lost Finale party Password theisland no charge for tickets about 12 hours ago via web
Thanks AL. I thought they were giving out the info on "lostcontest" on Twitter. Last thing I see there is that there is going to be a BAR.
OK now I just have to figure out where you put in a password.
TOL - Thoughts and prayers for you and your loved one.
TOL- your kind of situation is also the driver of events in my family's life right now-though the burden is heaviest on my husband.
It IS nice to have this place and show to come to for awhile. The best to you.
Morning all! (well it's still morning here in AZ) I'm not totally caught up this morning on the comments, but just finished re-watching. One thing that I question is Jacob's explanation to Richard that he doesn't step in because people need to learn right from wrong on their own otherwise it's all meaningles...then he offers Richard the position of liason to help the people he brings to the island. This is sort of contradictory I think. Jacob makes it sound like interference is a total no-no, but it's ok for Richard to do it? Do you think that maybe the rules are such that Jacob "can't" interfere? Maybe he's not really all that callous afterall but the rules keep him from intervening personally?
Also, in the beginning when Jacob was visiting Ilana in the hospital and giving her instructions...did he know that Ben was going to kill him? He's giving instructions as if he knows he's not going to be around to tell her later.
When Jacob says that all the other people he brought to the island are "dead", maybe SG is right and you do have to die on island in order to have an FS.
I just don't know what to think about Jacob. I actually like all the Jacob/MIB storyline though because it sets the framework for the story. I think in the end though it WILL be all about our Losties. TPTB have always said the story is about the characters, not the sci fi.
Also
@Scout, I don't think it's a conflict. Basically Jacob said, "This is the way I do things. I don't interfere", and Richard's response, basically, was, "How's that working out for you, considering that guy sent me to kill you?"
I think Jacob reconsidered his philosophy to the extent where he realized that candidates needed guidance, but he wasn't gonna be the one to do it. Thus, Richard becomes his assistant.
Could be Amy Lynn. I just thought it was interesting. I just think there is something going on that's more than meets the eye with Jacob (I guess most people feel that way too). Just drives me crazy not to know what it is.
Oh and Happy Birthday Amy!
So if so many of the 815ers are/were candidates and Richard is there to "help" why did the Others make lists and not help vs. help? It's like Ben's overly complicated plan to get back surgery. It always makes me think of Dr. Evil in the original Austen Powers. To quote Dr. Evil, "No, no, no. I'm going to leave them alone and not actually witness them dying. I'm just gonna assume it all went to plan. What?"
It's possible that the people who were kidnapped by the others (including the children) were innocents who did not happen to be candidates. The Others could only protect them by keeping them in the Temple.
But Pace was a candidate right? And Ethan hung him from a tree and then planned to kill every single 815er ending with Charlie in order to get Claire back. It just feels a little like this payoff story doesn't hold plot water.
Ethan/Ben aren't really Others.
But Richard was helping them. Why do you think they aren't really Others? There's no one more Other-y than Ethan. He's the original Other. :-)
@memphish, I meant that Ben/Ethan were both Dharma before they were Others.
We don't know that Richard told Ethan to kidnap Charlie and Claire. In fact, I'd bet he had nothing to do with it.
JT- Its a tough place to be-- at the same time, an odd honor to help someone "home". My very best to you and yours as well. LOST is a good brain break and chatting with you all, extends that time greatly!
Scoutpost- hmm maybe the rules do/did dictate that Jacob couldn't get directly involved... maybe Alpert and advising is HIS loophole. Given Alpert's choice- perhaps he proved himself worthy of and would therefore be trusted to be an advisor.
AL- I agree that an advisor either wasn't something that occurred to Jacob...or he had to be sure he had a willing "candidate" to offer it.
I don't rule out rogue others, or at least uninformed....it seemed like knowledge was only meant for the elite... the rest just followed orders, whether they came from the real Jacob or faux-Jacob... we have yet to see! (ex. Ben may have never seen Jacob, and may have taken non-Jacob orders and Jacob!?) So confusing.
This story has gotten pretty biblical. Good vs evil, God vs. Devil, where God doesn't directly interact with people but gives them the choice to do good. Jacob said he shouldn't have to convince people to do right. While the Devil promises and promises in exchange for your soul. And it's usually a trick just to get you out of your soul.
And no, am not a Christian, just pointing out the similarities there :)
I think Richard is an advisor or Jacob's voice but I don't think he can interfere anymore than Jacob can or will.
I agree that Ben did alot of things that Richard didn't condone. There were times that Richard tried to lead Ben in another direction but ultimately it's the person's choice.
Scoutpost
When Jacob says that all the other people he brought to the island are "dead", maybe SG is right and you do have to die on island in order to have an FS.
That wasn't me. That theory doesn't make since to me. Because we've seen most of the characters in a FS so far, so does that mean they're all dead on the island?
I also don't like this is the ending you get if you follow MIB or you follow Jacob.
I'm not sure what the FS are but I don't like either of those scenarios.
The FS frustrate me. Largely because I like them tons better than I like the on-island storyline, which has frankly been boring, but because we're halfway into the season, and there's still no rhyme, reason or purpose to them.
AL-the F/side is kind of making sense to me as the result of island time developments- so far.
Ben, Jack, Miles, and Sawyer all have done some issue confronting, which could lead to the better outcomes we see. I don't think they have turned the corner completely in island time- Ben may still lie and Miles still wants diamonds-but I think it is the groundwork.
However- if the island sinking means MIB is loose and it's all MELs illusion-well, that might not apply.
Will- there's lots of truth about what you said re: this season presenting views that seem to be reflective of Christianity - I have identified with lots of them and found that journey, as a Christian, exciting until last night.
Just a word of caution though-so please don't interpret as a criticism- this last episode- especially the priest's comments, please, please, be careful to recognize that very few Christians espouse his views on forgiveness, punishment, and penance.
So, from one"not-so-perfect-even-though-I-know-better-Christian"- just know that forgiveness and grace that was shown in the Illana and Ben's scene is more the real deal!
he was also a 1860's catholic preist, thats a far cry from the modern church.
i think the popes comments the other day about how peter denied christ during the passion, but ultimately became the first pope. Reminds me of the island's redemption stories.
Happy Bithday,Amy Lynn;
Great comments.
The OtherLisa said:(So, from one"not-so-perfect-even-though-I-know-better-Christian"- just know that forgiveness and grace that was shown in the Illana and Ben's scene is more the real deal!)
As another one "nspetIkbC",I totally agree.
TOL;
Sorry to hear of your present situation.The strength and grace of the real deal God,will carry you through this very difficult time. I'll keep you, and your family in my prayers.
Im almost 99% sure that the flashsideways is the future.
And im also pretty sure that Isabella in the Black Rock isnt smokey. He cant be a dead person and at the same time Smokey. And i still believe he cant take the form of dead people not on the isand.
FYI: The title for the finale is supposedly being released by Darlton today! I'm sure it's going to be everywhere, so be careful out there to those who don't want to know it!
Its already on tv.com and sadly i saw it :(
Ok so after having time to think... I am really bummed at the whole Hell/Purgatory ideas... if that is where this goes I will be very upset.
Also if this turns into a really long version of "Oh God, You Devil." you know the one with George Burns and George Burns, then I will travel to Hollywood find Darton and pull out a gun and shoot myself in the head at an angle that will leave them covered in my gray matter.
Anyway I liked everything about this episode up until that last part with Jacob and MIL, really don't want to have been lied to this whole time with Darton saying that it isn't hell and it isn't Purgatory, or Limbo... then if they try the old awitcharoo I am going to go mad.... this story is way to good to just fail on such an epic scale.
I think its pretty clear its not Hell or just the Evil vs Good thing. Richard believed in hell and they used it to their advantage.
They are not gonna dissapoint us but of course not everyone will be satisfied, thats impossible.
Concrete- I am hoping on this point, that you are correct. Richard's belief is just leverage. I hope that Richard's belief that they are all dead is also incorrect.
And... boy... I do hope this isn't any of the possiblities of any version of way-station, limbo, purgatory... or anything else.
I want a war, a real war (internal or external) with our real Losties on the island. Truthfully, eventually want them all on the same side with redemptive outcomes for everyone. I want good defeating evil , whatever that looks like in LOST world. I want going dutch for coffee, I want Shannon to go to ballet school... and on and on!!! Yep- I want a fairytale, that I'm unsure if I'm not gonna get. I don't want Jacob v. MIB as puppetiers and our central characters as throw away pawns.
However... all that said. I don't think I get a vote!
:-) So, when I get some time, I'll rewatch with all these points in mind and hope to get beyond the sledgehammer and look ahead!
I never thought the "They are all dead" theory was pretty clever, it just doesnt make much sense with them leaving the island and more
Hmm weird the title in the podcast is different from the one on tv.com
I never thought Richard saying they're all dead and in hell was a real thing...Especially after Richard's little hysterical giggle after Ilana looked to him for what to do next. The MIB knew that el diablo was something that Ricardo believed in, and like everyone else, he exploited that. The MIB looks for someones weakness, and uses it to his advantage. That memory came back to Richard because he felt abandoned by what he believed in.
NO TELLING THE TITLE!!!
(holding ears, covering eyes and hoping that as I choose to watch again next week.. I'll continue not to be spoiled!!!)
here's hoping numerous titles are released as phantom titles to keep you spoiler types in the dark!
mwah- ha- ha- ha!!!
The title doesnt give anything away ;)
Don't care CON- don't want to know!
Boy- I'm trying to rationalize Jacob. What if MIB caused the tidal wave and Jacob got stuck in his broken foot for awhile- so couldn't check out the BR?
What if not killing the soldiers would have meant that everyone died because they were going to set off the nuke, which would set off the island?
What if Radzinsky went totally nuts in the DI and was killing all the Others before the purge?
JT- I like it!!! Let's go with it until proven otherwise. All's fair in love and war!
i think mib killed the br people so fast for 2 reasons, he was in a dominant position island wise, the black was weighing down the scale. He also had them in his wheelhouse islandwise, the black rock was in the middle of the dark territory and before he was loose smokey seemed to be trapped in certain places on the island. Most people go to the beach before they go into the jungle. Smokey didnt go after the french team or 815 til they left the beach.
Im pretty sure that locke turning the donkey wheel is what made the storm so severe and that was because of mib and christian manipulating locke. Why else would they show us that the tarawet statue was intact while they were at the well/donkey wheel. Miles said the last time flash was differn't then the others like an earthquake.
i think just as smokey dropped the rock on bram to allude the ash circle he fixed it so the black rock would bypass the beach and go right to the heart of his lair.
the verse richard was reading in the bible was about when jesus went off into the desert and the devil tempted him. Mib was doing something like that, he killed witfield, but left richard to starve. He wanted richard to weak.
i still think that mib was reffering to jacob/ the devil taking isabella's life and the rage richard had towards the doctor was mib trying to help save her, the evil that men do...
2c - you are right... you've got to assume we would need to reference the whole passage of Luke 4. The 4:37 would have been the end of that page which was on the right hand side.
It begins with the desert temptation. Includes multiple healings afterwards, and talks about the words He preached were with power.
I can see the desert temptation now in the BR chains... we've heard not to let either Jacob or MIB talk to you... so here's hoping for multiple healings and overcoming temptation! Thanks...that was a great catch to reference the whole chapter.
thanks lisa
i was thinking that maybe jacob had to die in order to organize the ghosts friends of the losties. Perhaps jacob is who told isabella she had to talk to hurley. We know from the whispers that the ghosts seem to talk to each other on the island.
if the powers jacob gives out are the same as his powers, maybe talking to the ghosts is how jacob knows so much about the future.
2c--- I'm still with you on referencing the whole chapter for it to make sense, but for the record, the passages shown onscreen are Luke 4:24-29
This quote is in reference to a completely different show, but I think it sums up why for now at least I'm rooting for MIB over Jacob. "What was that Dark Helmet once said? "Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb"? "
Hey you all everybody! Going to try to post tonight. Blogger ate my homework last night:(
Did Ricardo accidentally killing the doctor remind anyone else of Desmond accidentally killing Kelvin? Don't think there's any significance but it just stuck out to me.
just like jacob knew that turning the wheel to 108 would pass jack's number on the way, we know that if richard was reading the bible in order he already read the temptation part.
it is also like the way hugo is all guilty feeling over someone dying from a porch collapsing
2c- excellent point.
I know a lot of people are commenting on having a hard time w/Jacob not helping Ricardo on the BR. Jacob kind of explained that himself at the beach w/Ricardo. Not interfering, yada, yada. If Jacob had been the one to go in and help Richard out how would there have been a choice to make between Smokey & Jacob? I get it:) I think ...
I also on a rewatch picked up that the only "sensible" thing, in Jacob's opinion Richard said, is that he wants to live.
What that translates into... I dunno. A will? Hope? To prove that he wasn't dead? A dead man wouldn't need to breathe?
Anyone translate the first conversation with Hurley and Isabella on the beach yet?
i also like in that chapter how the devil basically dares jesus to jump off the temple and commit suicide, because the angels will save him if he is truly the chosen one, it's almost like the devil senses a loophole, but jesus doesn't take the bait. Reminds me of how dave was trying to get hurley to jump off the cliff.
shannon's dad died because jack wanted to save sarah's ability to walk, where do u draw the line
I still think the ship we saw in "The Incident" could still be the BR. In "Ab Aeterno" it shows the exterior of the BR & it's all bright & sunny. Then the next thing we know they're in a terrible storm. Just like when Frank was flying the helicopter to the freighter. Desmond also was caught in a storm when his ship wrecked. I think the French science team was also in a storm when they wrecked. I think that is why the DI and Widmore use subs to get to the island, to avoid this. Daniel had said something to Jack about "Who told you to get on a plane?"
sun's boytoy died because of her handling of things
Hurley was awesome last night, AGAIN. Why is he so cool?
Sorry, I'm posting kind of random stuff. Don't want Blogger to eat it again;)
Nestor was awesome as well! He really had us all, I think. Good actor.
totally agree ginger and add that i think it is the farthest point back in the time flashes, and right as miles and swayer were looking up at tarawet and locke was at the bottom of the well, jacob and mib were chatting about loopholes on the beach and the black rock was aproaching. Right as the black rock was crossing the magnetic field, locke turned the donkey wheel and the final flash occured to 1977. Miles said it was a really rough flash worse than the rest, i think that magnified the storm that the black rock was in.
i think that back at the lamp post hawkings could have chosen many flights that could go to the island, she was commputing the perfect direction bearings and everything to give frank a chance to land on hydra island. All for jacob's plan. We need to see pregnant hawkings leave the island with faradays filled in journal and see what she did next?
i think the the time flashes going back only to the point where jacob touched richard, might explain why dogen could be offered his son back but richard's wife could not. when jacob got richard to follow him was the first step in the time loop/others plan perhaps significant
Sayid's Girl - This episode strengthen my belief that the flash sideways aren’t real they’re to vanilla and hollow. Everybody is happy or at least accepting and that’s not reality. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.
I've been feeling the same way about them. Something just isn't right.
2costa - 1. mib using the cross with richard was a nice commentary about how religion can be manipulated by both good and evil.
Yes, and how MIB used Richard's belief that he was going to Hell against him. Come to think of it, Sayid believed he was going to Hell, too. Hmmmm.
Obviously some evil gets off the island, but the island keeps a lid on it. i presume the world would end much faster if mib gets loose
This is how I see it as well.
its also seeming more and more like sinking the island is jacob's plan. if the water can wash off mib's touch then maybe the water can trap him on the island forever. it goes with the notion that jacob is to water as mib is to smoke.
It appears that you and I are on the same page about a lot of this stuff. I was thinking the same thing - that if the island is underwater, MIB could premanently be trapped there.
It will take one of mib's recruits to kill him at this point.
Sayid?
as far as i know alvar hanso just owned the black rock. he wasn't necessarily on it
When I rewatched the episode I heard one of the BR crew tell Whitfield that Magnus (not Alvar - he didn't come along until much later) Hanso was dead. So he was on the ship and died in the crash.
Scoutpost -
Also, in the beginning when Jacob was visiting Ilana in the hospital and giving her instructions...did he know that Ben was going to kill him? He's giving instructions as if he knows he's not going to be around to tell her later.
Good catch! I thought at the time there was something odd about their conversation but I didn't think on it too long and just let it go. Now that you mention it, that is exactly how it sounded.
(OT) TOL and others in the smae situation - A friend of mine has done a lot of hospice work and she has written a book about it. She's not Christian per se, but she is deeply spiritual. I can't say for sure how much comfort this will offer or if it's too close to home right now, but I offer this as something you can explore. Leaving This Life With Hospice: Stories of Wonder and Hope
Funny little things- maybe mean nothing. At first MIB says to Richard that Jacob "probably" took his wife, then later says he saw he saw Jacob take his wife-like he didn't have it set up from the beginning to make that the story. And then there's both Smokey sounds and Isabella present at the same time, as has been noted. Also, if MIB planned to make it look like Jacob took her-why have her run away and scream when Smokey comes and then admit that he is Smokey. Seems like a very poor plan. And her body isn't on the island like all the others we saw Smokey do.
So what's up- what could she be if not Smokey?
And Jacob doesn't know who she is at first, even if she was on the ship-then tells Richard that was not his wife that he saw. So unless he is a really glib liar- it wasn't him either.
Wild card -we still have no idea about is that kid in the jungle. Maybe party # 3?
Very kind of you to link he book Lostit. My husband is trying to take care of so many things in a home environment right now for a loved one -the illness, relatives, last wishes, himself- but is overseas where there are no hospices. I wish there were for his sake. Thank you for the thought.
that made me think that jacob was isabell on the black rock, he beat smokey there and told richard that smokey was the devil. Smokey didnt catch her so he said probably. So when smokey realized that jacob beat him there he changed his story and told richard he saw it. That would make sense that jacob was also alex in the catacombs, he wanted to make sure ben would go through with killing him. That's why flocke seemed surprised and pleased when he heard about alex saying to listen to locke because it wasn't him. Actually ben made the same decision by killing jacob as saving alex's yale letter. he chose ehat alex wanted or was best for her.
Jacob using to wine bottle to explain the darkness and the cork keeping the darkness where it's suppose to be reminded me of what Daanielle said to Sayid when he's trying to leave after she'd captured him.
Daniellle: He (Robert) was sick, it took them, one after the other. I had no choice they were already lost. What would have happened if they were rescued? I couldn't let that happen. I won't.
If they had been rescued would they have spread the darkness to the outside world?
I've always wondered what this scene was about. Now it makes since to me.
Back again! As other's have commented the priest's comments about forgiveness really rubbed me the wrong way. And I agree w/what many of you have said about those comments not being true & the priest being bad anyway. I could tell a similar story about another priest, but I won't go there. Thanks for opening up old Catholic wounds LOST! ;P
SG - good catch. I just rewatched that episode the other day. Very cool.
More randomness...all 3 of my daughter's names are LOST character's names now. Isabella was the icing on the cake!
i think touching sayid and hurley so late in the game was a sign that jacob knew he was going to die.
it also seemed to answer why hawkings wanted as many of the people on the ajira plane as possible, not to recreate the crash of 815, but because jacob had specific missions for everyone. So the more that came back the more successful jacob's plan will be. Hurley for instance is pivotal to the mission with his bi-lingual medium powers, maybe there was a plan for walt and not being there makes it unpredictable.
i also am of the thinking that hurley stopped translating and richard heard the rest, hurley said it just takes some people longer to see them. Just like jack saw christain's ghost in the hospital, that couldnt have been mib . it is like the other santa rosa patient saw charlie. Or Claire told kate not to bring aaron back to the island. If claire is infected like sayid i think she may be dead. Perhaps jacob appears to people as ghosts of lost loved ones off the island.
The last conversation was interesting-Jacob says that someone will replace him if the MIB kills him, and it seems more like a known procedure that will happen- rather than a 200 year search for a candidate. Whoever set up the island and the rules in the first place may send someone new perhaps. Then MIB points out that he will just kill the next jailer too.
So what if Jacob is searching for a more secure way to contain MIB- as you say 2C- he may be wanting to sink the island and that may be part of it. What if the candidate is the incorruptible soul he is looking for. Perhaps if he can prove MIB wrong, he can hold him there permanently.
The very end of the Hurley /Isabella scene is making me stick to my guns on that one. The camera at the end shifts from behind Hurley on one side- to where he is seeing Isabella, and then to the other side, to where I think it is Richard's experience and you do not see or hear her.
Then Hurley says she said "one more" thing-which means to me one more thing just then- not something an hour ago.
Doesn't really matter-just artistic details.
Watched the episode now and I loved it, I'm glad I didn't know anything about it before I saw it, not the title or subject.
It goes out of it's way to imply (it doesn't confirm) that MIB = Evil and Jacob = Good. The black and white theme where in old westerns the one in black is always evil is there. Also, at face value, seems to confirm a lot of things we have alreay speculated on and in the main agreed on in the past.
However it does give us the flipside that being good doesn't necessarily make things easier for us humans, from a certain point of view being good looks like the wrong choice as we don't get what we want.
It also draws parallels with the garden of eden, in that if we were to be guided and managed (i.e. don't eat the fobidden fruit) we can live in innocence and peace, but if we eat the fruit we have to be our own person with free will and make decisions that won't necessarily always be good in outcome.
So after a few weeks of flash sideways do we agree that this is most definitely a flash backwards and that any sideways action has yet to start ?
The cork in the bottle analogy was simple but effective and made me think of Ben removing the cork from the pool in one of the tunnels to summon the smoke monster to try and kill Keamy and his team.
It also made me think that in the sideways flashes, if the island is sunk, that the cork is out of the bottle, and although the inhabitants of this sideways universe look happy, the blackness may be about to claim them.
The alternative point of view with the island being sunk is that the smoke monster is defeated and the island is no longer needed. Therefore everything is fine and all the candidates are happy, or at least doing what they think they want to do.
This may have already been mentioned, but I'm believing more and more that MIB / Smoke is Jacob's creation and that his punishment for creating something like that was to guard it on the island so it couldn't hurt anyone else. However I'm not sure why he would want to lure people to the island unless there is a possibility of killing / destroying his creation.
Another question - is the reason that the smoke can't escape from the island because the island has an electromagnetic barrier or because smoke can't travel far over water ?
@Zort, I'm not sure I agree with you about the implications of Jacob/good, MIB/dark. Par example, this is the first episode where we see Jacob in black clothes, and MIB wearing anything white.
Someone asked about Hurley's Spanish in the beginning. I saw on another blog that Hurley is saying probably to Isabella "Yes. Yes, I can help, but I don't know how to find him..."
I disagree about Eden Zort. In Eden God told them clearly don't eat this and he met with them every day. Jacob is way more hands off.
Jacob's failure to clearly delineate expectations is what drives me nuts about him. I guess in part it comes from being a mother who repeatedly finds that if she lays out her expectations they are much more likely to be met and when they aren't consequences are clear vs. failing to set any expectations and/or limits which can lead to chaos. Jacob needs to read some parenting books.
Lostit said...
2costa - 1. mib using the cross with richard was a nice commentary about how religion can be manipulated by both good and evil.
Yes, and how MIB used Richard's belief that he was going to Hell against him. Come to think of it, Sayid believed he was going to Hell, too. Hmmmm.
That crossed my mind too, Lostit.
It will take one of mib's recruits to kill him at this point.
Sayid?
This is what I've been hoping. Sayid being in the Judas position in the last supper promo picture might mean he's going to betray MIB and not the Losties and Jacob.
But it's probably just wishful thinking. I am bias after all. :)
I actually seen several parallels to RIchard, Isabella and MIB with Sayid, Nadia and MIB.
But Sayid has already tried to kill Smokey and failed. How do we think Smokey can be killed? I'm more inclined to think he can only be trapped again like a genie in a bottle.
memphish
I agree. I said it was wishful thinking. :) I mentioned before, I think last week, that maybe MIB isn't supposed to be killed but trapped again.
If MIB can be killed with the knife you can't let him speak to you which Sayid did, so that may be why MIB wasn't killed. But I think it's most likely he needs to be trapped again.
About Eden I think I mean that it is a case of free will vs control that we are talking about.
Amy I'll have to rewatch when it airs on the TV in the UK to see if my opinnion on that changes.
I'm not saying that is what LOST is all about, just that this is the impression I think the producers are trying to convey, probably with a plan of turning everything on it's head at any given moment :-)
Zort- It will bug me if they take away all the F/side in a Smokey victory. I don't think it shows the Losties in a false happiness, but rather addressing the core issues that TPTB have defined for them. So to end it with Smokey running amok will put the mythology above the Lostie's stories.
Maybe they have been on the island so long it is hard for the creators to make an off island world real for us. Or maybe they need to explain the bleed through to another time that Jack & others seem to feel with mirrors etc.
i think sayid could only kill mib before he was touched by mib if he didn't let him speak, but i think just like ben still could kill jacob after he spoke because he was a jacob loyalist, sayid could now kill flocke
My favorite clothing store, ModCloth, has a LOST-inspired dress today (http://www.modcloth.com/store/ModCloth/Womens/The+Dharma+Dress).
Unfortunately, it's a little too pricey for my pocket, but I thought it was neat.
AL-late BDay present to yourself?
On a flighty note- on rewatch I saw a blue butterfly go past Ricardo in the BR- and have just seen they have a whole thread on it on LP (that seemed a safe one to look at- unlikely to have major spoilers!) Ideas were-symbol of the soul, MIB spying, symbol of hope. Easter Egg to drive us crazy.
Did others notice it?
Or maybe it was just a callback to the Moth that led Charlie and Jack to safety.
The blue butterfly - -flying up into the sun - - showing Richard there was a way out.
TOL - Should download for free - encouraging Christian poetry. . . God, Let me See the Hedge by my personal favorite poet.
One other thought- because I will forget otherwise- re island = hell.
Maybe the island is the inspiration for the myths of the underworld-Egyptian, Greek, Christian, etc- but those myths aren't accurate. So, it's not really the place where damned souls go-but is depicted that way in Christianity.
Now Jacob says to Richard that when people come to the island, their past doesn't matter. So for him, it is not the classical hell at all- just the opposite. He is not being a devilish judge- he is giving the clean slate of our first season.
Yes, JT, I saw that blue butterfly fly by Richard in the Black Rock. I wondered what it was there for. Could it be part of Jacob somehow, checking up on his "game piece"?
I'm taking the fact of the island sinking as evil has been destroyed. But it just as well can be that evil has escaped...there is a lot of bad things in our world.
2c- Great catch. In addition to food/hunger, the other temptation was power- giving Him all the kingdoms of the world (ala Ben's temptation for power). There was a loophole, as you suspect,- if Jesus had jumped to "prove" himself, many feel that he would have given into temptation and done things the devil's way instead of have Faith in his Father's plan. The loophole there is that he would not have been an acceptable "candidate" to die for the sins of many, having given into committing one of his own. You have encouraged me 2c! Many thanks!
JT- I'm thinking with 2c's reference to all of Luke 4- the "incorruptable" candidate makes a lot of sense.
Scout and Lost it--- so Jacob's non-intervention began to dissolve slowly, first with Alpert, then recruiting of candidates, and then Illana and her team as protectors. That's progress on the intervention front???
Zort- What we think we want/is good---we often really don't/is bad. Richard made a very hard choice, just because he believed murder is murder , no matter what reason, and it is not right. Reminds me of what Sayid needs to do, seperate who he is, from what he has done. Richard could have just said, "I was born to be a killer, I have already killed, so what is one more?" No- he regrets his accident, and refuses to perpetuate it. Sayid, on the flip side...we can debate his motives... but he has chosen to "own" BEING a killer, not simply having just killed.
I have been all over the Garden of Eden since Ben killed Jacob and MIB started talking about answers to questions/knowledge to Sawyer. Memphish, I agree with your differences of God's involvement- and frustrations with Jacob's non-involvement- so that part is different, but the temptations are much the same. Knowledge of good and evil and the curse, is personal responsibility of your choices. Again, like Scoutpost kindly reminds us- it doesn't have to follow the Greatest Story of all--- but it sure seems to reference it quite a bit.
JT- I'm with you on the "clean slate" - we've heard since season 1 that "pasts don't matter"- that's forgiveness... not hell imho.
Lets go back to Ben releasing the Smoke monster.
1. Realize that Ben released MIB knowingly.
2. We know there is a way to control it.... so did Ben release it every time we saw it? If it had to be released purposefully by Ben? For what purpose each time?
2. How did Ben know that it would kill Keamy and not him?
3. What is Smokey's decision making on who to kill?
4. Did Smokey go back into the hole willingly to be "recontained"? Or did it take over a body once out?
It does seem like Smokey/MIB could be Jacob's creation- like MIB said, he took away his humanity.
Perhaps being in the Smokey state is that state of non-humanity. Someone in the know about mythology may have to take this one- I can't come up with a Biblical parrallel. Your thought that Jacob would guard it as punishment... I'm not so sure of, but it could be.
Now, Re:Sayid letting MIB talk to him... clearly, MIB can be resisted ala Alpert. Less clearly, but possible, Jacob could be resisted when he spoke. Its all about knowledge of good and evil. When one speaks, you become accountable for your decision.
Lostit- many thanks, I'll check out that link. We have been fortunate to have wonderful hospice providers and the ability to do most of the care as a family. Not easy, but we are thankful to be able to do it.
JT- I can't imagine the additional emotional strain it must be to handle his loved one's illness and wishes from afar-- my continued best for you and family.
Lost2010- many thanks for the link.
Ginger- I hear you! the scenes were pretty polarizing, weren't they? Forgive and let the Real Deal heal those wounds. ;-)
Richard and Sayid's experience are slightly different.
Although MIB was playing the Dogen role giving Richard the same knife and same instructions as Dogen did Sayid.
Richard was being asked to kill a good person (we assume) while Sayid was being asked to kill and evil person. (we assume)Although they were both toldd the peson was evil.
I would have to think when evil speaks to you it's a little different than good speaking to you.
But in both scenarios they listened to the person they were asked to kill.
From another perspective, maybe Jacob really did betray the MIB. MIB seems awfully sincere about that particular point.
Maybe something Jacob did (maybe without even meaning to) - didn't so much create MIB - as it made him into what he now is.
Jacob perhaps - tipped MIB's scale to the dark side.
And now he's charged with care of MIB. Maybe he's not so much a jailer as a caretaker.
Maybe whatever Jacob and MIB are. . .MIB is at a teenage rebellion stage of life. . .maybe he wants to leave the island and Jacob knows that wouldn't be good for him. .or for the people off the island. . .
Maybe Jacob didn't resist Ben's attempt to kill him because now that he's gotten all those candidates to the island. . .he knew that a replacement was at hand. . .and he could finally let himself be killed and believe that his purpose would still be accomplished.
SG- good points....same with the intent to kill in the past (Sayid with intent, Alpert without)... there are a lot of differences that go into the decision making... I'd just like to see Sayid believe that while he has killed, he is not a killer at heart. Make a choice that he doesn't have to kill for someone else's mistakes.
Also, regarding the title of the finale, I know it, and it's super disappointing.
saw the butterfly but i actually thought about Fringe
Amy Lynn
I don't know the title and don't want to, but I read a tweet that said it wasn't spoilery.
@SG, I think it's minory spoilery, LOL.
I just went ahead and read all the episode titles because it was the only way I could find the centricities.
The last one is a bit spoilery - - but it's probably nothing you haven't guessed already. :)
the tree on knowledge is all over the show with the quest for the real a meaning of the island and this week we got the tree of life with richard. i always thought the fertility problem on the island reminded me of how eve ruined childbirth as far as pain for all woman to come.
funny that in prison richard was wearing white and the preist was wearing black. i guess the others' funeral all in white makes more sense nowadays.
I wonder if richard could only be a mediator to the others because he was previously touched by smokey. I guess richard technically not being an other is all loophole. He would technically be leading the group if he wasn't a mediator for jacob and that would make jacob directly influencing them, but as some have pointed out its a pretty weak distinction because jacob does tell the others what to do. I think it's more about the others being outside of the candidate system. like if you join the others you are out of the running for the new jacob. thats why the others have to respect candidates freedom of choice otherwise jacob and mib's game looses all validity.
i think that for that reason richard could no longer kill jacob or mib, because he has already made his choice. Seems like smokey would be wary of people that were capable of killing him. like how jacob open a can of whoopass on richard becuase he knew he was a threat. Jacob's beatdown of richard give validity to the theory that if richard had daggered jacob without hearing him speak it would have worked.
regardless if sayid was healed by the murky water or not. jacob was the most recent one to touch sayid, so to kill the opposite teams leader mib, the "dont let him speak rule" was in effect
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