On tonight's episode...
Locke takes on the burden to stop the island’s increasingly violent shifts through time. Meanwhile, Ben hits a roadblock in his attempt to reunite the Oceanic 6 and bring them back to the island.
Also, in the words of Daniel Dae Kim, Jin "goes through his own little 'excellent adventure.' Like Bill and Ted."
Most excellent, dudes.
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
This Place is Death - Season 5, Episode 5
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DocArzt has a screen cap with meanings of each picture written on it but no real translation.
I got this from the Lostpedia blog.
DocArzt
Hey! Nice to be here to chime in! (Long post warning! :-)
I agree with Blue Heron that the "constant" idea probably only applies to a time-skipping consciousness and not to bodily time skipping.
Did anybody catch how the donkey wheel on the island was "skipping" like a scratched record? I thought that was a genius theme to duplicate. So if the "skipping" caused the time skipping and if Locke fixed the donkey wheel, then does that mean the LB'ers are stuck wherever they were when Locke pushed it? Could that be someplace in Dharma time? But then there was no well nor Orchid station and we haven't yet seen Daniel part of the DI which I think is likely to come soon.
I think the stuff with Smokey and the Temple was meant to make us ask more questions, not answer them. If Smokey was the sickness of Danielle's people (genius, not what we'd theorized as the cause at all), what does that mean for the Others or for our people who may end up there?
Also this could mean that Smokey, the Temple, and the four-toed people are all part of the same mystery. If the LB'ers are back before the well was built, which looked like it was similar construction to the temple, then does that mean they are about to meet "the ancients" or will they time skip first?
Scoutpost and Maven - abundance of arms but shortage of toes! LSHNEMB!
So the oldest people from/on the island are - Richard, Eloise, and Charles Widmore. The last two could recruits (for what?) or ancients/immortals. It could be that ancients/immortals age while off the island but not on it. The times we've seen Richard off the island would add up to less than a week of aging while the other two have lived off the island extensively.
We don't yet have a place for Jacob nor an explanation for why Christian was adopted as spokesman, nor Claire, nor ghost Horace Goodspeed. How are they connected to the more ancient mystery?
I didn't find translations on Lostpedia yet either, Dirge. They have this screen capture of the temple though.
My favorite part was when Hawking says, "Benjamin" just like she was his old school teacher. LOL!
Great minds... Sayid's girl. :-)
Forgot to also wonder if Charlotte's body was left behind on that last skip forward after she died. Would the island leave her in the time she dies, keep moving her, or move her because Daniel was touching her?
And you too, Lost 2010, that was my question too about what Locke did to the wheel and how it affected their time skipping. Although I wonder if the well was gone, does that mean they are in a time before the temple, before Dharma - the time of the ancients/immortals?
Although what was the donkey wheel doing still buried under the island and what other access point could it have had in the time when Locke fell down there?
Excessive posting, please forgive me.I'm only going to be online so long. Dirty bathrooms call.
I'm starting to feel very sympathetic to Ben. Outrageous, I know. Here's a guy who was abandoned by his mother's death and his father's alcoholism. He was rejected by Juliet, and then by Richard Alpert as the leader of the Others. He's lost favor with Jacob and the island. Now he has to convince people who hate his guts that he has their and their friends best interests at heart. He manipulates until he's friendless. Man, a guy can only take so much rejection. What's going to end up happening to him?
Also I can't help thinking that this is all leading to a "Lost: The Next Generation." Ji Yeon, all grown up, meets up in Tahiti with a handsome young Charlie Hume. They bond over tropical drinks as they discuss their long lost parents, only to discover that the same mystery shrouds both their disappearances. Armed with nothing but their wits and a map with the name Hawking scrawled in the corner, they refurbish the old Hume yacht and go sailing....
I sort of thought maybe they were in between at that point. That maybe they were there with the well. . .then somehow the well was filled in. . .maybe to hide the wheel even. . .then Dharma came along and built the orchid.
And I also sort of though that they were by the well. Then the flash that knocked Locke down took them to the filled in time. Then we won't know until next week (or whenever they get ready to show us) what time actually turning the wheel took them to.
Is that what you were thinking Twinkle?
Twinkle said:
Also I can't help thinking that this is all leading to a "Lost: The Next Generation." Ji Yeon, all grown up, meets up in Tahiti with a handsome young Charlie Hume. They bond over tropical drinks as they discuss their long lost parents, only to discover that the same mystery shrouds both their disappearances. Armed with nothing but their wits and a map with the name Hawking scrawled in the corner, they refurbish the old Hume yacht and go sailing....
I like it. I'd watch. :)
Yeah! Then the LoCos can still chat about Lost together! :-D
was it just me or did it sound like horace chopping trees when smokey first appeared before frenchie got grabbed?
i think christain purposesly didn't tell locke how to completely turn the donkey wheel right again. Ben seemed to turn it way more then locke and his littlw nudgeand there's the issue of the wheel not being frozen anymore.
i don't think that was a smokey doppleganger that rousseau shot it was her genuine husband gone mad. Are we thinking the one armed man is still on the loose? he wasn't one of the dead was he?
interesting thought, 2costa. One armed man like Dr Candle. Are they trying to start a theme of why people lose arms :) Smokey take em?
Totally kidding. At this point, there isnt much happening that we cant tie back to something that already happened. Just trying to be funny.
So maybe Horace is time skipping too and that explains the cabin?
About the well, you're right. They haven't given us a lot of info to go on. We know young Charlotte with the DI knew the well was there. So presumably the well and the DI overlapped. We don't know if the time they skipped to has an Orchid station or not. I'm assuming that first came the well, then came Dharma. So when they skipped to a time when the well wasn't there, I thought it might be a time well before Dharma, in the mystery ages surrounding the ancients/immortals. I suppose they could have also skipped forward to a time when the DI has torn down and filled in the well or much further forward, but it looked like a time before the well to me. I'm really hoping we'll get more glimpses into the ancient island but I think it's just as likely that Locke's jiggling of the wheel made them skip again and we won't find out anything.
If the donkey wheel was frozen before and then Ben's turning it started it moving but also pulled it off track and made it start "skipping" like a scratched record, then what does Locke's setting the donkey wheel back on track but turning round and round make the island do? (Picky point - Locke was pulling. Christian said to *push*.) So could it be that the people who left the island are like the island's constants? Does it need them in order to stay in one place again?
I think the one-armed guy that went down the temple died as well. The people Rousseau killed seemed like real people, but Smokey did something to them.
Regarding Lost: TNG - Ah, great! So JiYeon and Charlie find the island and get nosebleeds together. Or what if they end up before everything and are the start of the whole thing? Lol! Nope, Alpert doesn't look 1/2 Korean.
It was interesting to me when Danielle told Jin that he just disappeared. Does that mean that one second he's standing there and the next is not when the flash happens? Or did she mean he walked away when she wasn't looking? If it's the first, I wonder why those people experiencing our LBers disappearing don't remember that. They interact with them, and then -- whoosh -- they're gone!
It just occurred to me watching part of PBS's new Wuthering Heights recently is influencing my thinking. Everybody we now know ends up dead and miserable. The children pay for the sins of the parents, pick up the pieces, but don't end up with you you'd think they'd end up with.
Did Sawyer read Wuthering Heights?
I still can't really figure out how Charlotte knew about the well. Chang didn't really find out about the FDW until he was shown that "x-ray" film by the tunnel worker guy. Chang knew about all the magnetic properties, but seemed surprised by the outline of the wheel. If Charlotte of DI, the Orchid would have been built over the well. And, if she was a young child, why would she be wondering around so far from New Otherton (unless her father or mother worked at the Orchid)?
I wondered that too, Maven. I think they just up and disappear. It was the disappearing that convinced the Others in the 1950's to take Locke and Faraday seriously so that 1) Alpert visited Locke at his birth and 2) presumably they buried Jughead.
BTW, did Locke give Alpert something to "test" him with as a teenager? Lostpedia says the compass was different from the compass included in Alpert's test items. And that compass wasn't even Locke's it was Alpert's. Is there more to the backstory between Locke and Alpert or is that all they're giving us?
Good questions, Maven. DI crazy old Faraday could have told her. Wonder if Faraday died in the purge? Don't think the timing is right for Charlotte to be Annie nor for Faraday to be Charlotte's father. Now Faraday could be Annie's father? Most likely he didn't stay in DI times but kept skipping.
BTW, in reviewing the Peter Chang videos on Lostpedia, it occurred to me that time skipping like what our Losties are doing now was how they made the bunny appear in two places.
DD:
I'm waiting for the Korean translation and an "official" hieroglyphics translation as well.
Question for everyone:
Was the Orchid's elevator built at the exact location of the well, or were they in two slightly different locations (with both leading to the wheel, though)?
Also, did anyone else get fooled when Jin saw the pillar of smoke? I thought for sure we were going to see Ben/Others taking away baby Alex. Oh, well, maybe in another episode.
charlotte knew about the well becuaese after she left the island her nother told her it was a dream, so she spent the rest of her life studying ancient cultures to find the island, so i bet she learned about the well through her studies, probably some ancient well of life or well of knowledge. Perhaps adam and eve wasn't symbolic perhaps the island is eden.She knew where the well was just like she knew there was gonna be a polar bear in the tunesian desert with a dharma collar. As i said before i think the island has influenced or been influenced by a variety of ancient cultures like egypt, rome or greece, depending where the island was at that particular epoc. The donkey wheel is old so i assume they have used it before to move the island.
danielle didn't see the flash when jin dissappeared just him dissapearing, noo one in the flashbacks has seen the flashes esides the lb's, which were eminating from the well. As i said earlier Richard in jan 2005 saw the flash as ben turned the wheel, but din't see it in any of his flashback incarnations. Perhaps the temple protects the others from the flashes, like it is outside of time
How do we know that the Others who saw the LBs disappear didn't say what-the-heck? Maybe they did, but then they figured it out over time (and from Jacob?)?
I saw W.Heights on PBS too Twinkle, that was very good. WH is the kind of book that Sawyer would like probably. Heheh yeah, I noticed the push/pull discrepancy too. :-)
I don't think it's too strange for Chang to be surprised by the wheel. If you hit a vein of ore deep in the earth, for instance, you would be very surprised to find something manmade imbedded in the mountain, in the middle of it. :-D
Yeah, nuts, I thought that too about the smoke Blueheron.
Maven,
I think the time travel happens just as you described. One sec your there, the next ur not. I don't see anyone but the Losties reacting to the bright light and the noise, so to me no else know's what is going on. One sec your there and they are talking to you, the next, poof, your gone.
Twinkle, Great observation about how the wheel was still there even though there was no apparent access to it.
I always assumed that whomever built the well (ancient civilization?) also put the wheel in place. But now we see that either the wheel was there before the well (and we are looking way into the past) or the wheel remained long after the well and the ruins of the Orchid disappeared (way into the future). Neither makes much sense to me.
Unless the wheel exists "outside of time" which doesn't make sense to me either.
im thinking the island although ancient may be manmade, and just because the well wasn't there doesnt mean there wasn't another corridor to enter, probably the direction christain came from, the blast door map reminds us " a mouse always has two holes".
i think the fact that rousseau said montand(my time) lost his arm in the dark terratories and not his life might indicate that he survived the loss of his arm..
Chang didn't seem surprised to me all when he saw the xray with the wheel. In fact he seemed to expect it and knew exactly it was.
did Ben tell Locke the truth when he says peole who turn the wheel can't return to the island. The 06can, they didn't spin the wheel.
We don't know a lot about the others but it seems like their utopian society wouldn't banish anyone, leaving the frozen donkey wheel as the permanant way off the island. I can't imagine they would just let you leave without a requirement to return. Too much risk there. Was Widmore tricked into moving the island, what about Elle?
I am still on the fence on whether Ben can return to the island. I think the 06 can but he cannot. But what's the point in finding the island if Ben cant return. What value does that have for him. I am just not getting why Widmore wants back if he left either.
Charlotte's mom had to be someone special because I don't recall the DI letting people leave either, except for the chosen leaders who travel back and forth.
Could Elle and Widmore have been tricked to take an off island mission and the island was moved while they were gone? That's the only reason I could see for how Widmore gets back. Either that or Ben lied, which would be completely normal :)
Otherwise the Widmore/Ben chess game is beginning to make less and less sense.
Really beginning to think that Elle and Chucky Widmore are in cahoots.
My thoughts exactly, about the well 2costa. There could have been various access entries to it created over the years/centuries.
charlotte's mom may have been one of the few people smart enough to survive the purge that ben was referring to when he took locke to the dharma mass grave.
I'm also thinking Ben somehow helped rousseau survive the purge or she went to the temple to survive and came out as mad as a hatter.
The fact that montand was chosen by smokey in the same way locke was and wasn't one of the obvious corpses on the beach, that he is a major player in all this stuff we are seeing , mayb e still alive in the present
someone translated te glyphs on darlufo, interestingly one of them i s horus. Another one is water and drink, remmeber long ago ben had something in his journal about drinking bottled water. Perhaps the adam and eve well water has weird properties. It also reminded me how jin was drinking the water off the leaf.
I know Ben eventually ate some dharma cereal while in captivity, but i think the dharma food is important, Ben was on a hunger strike most of his time in the swan. Hurley started seeing dave after eating the dharma food, but even if just drinking the island water messes with your head, perhaps rousseasu's people were seeing people like dave telling them to kill themselves or others like dave told hurley to jump off the cliff.
Did i hear charlotte mention a "DAVE" yesterday, maybe oue friendly bald slipper wering dave?
i also think that charlotte didn't remmber daniel until that moment because it hadn't happened in her past until that very moment, much like desmond didn't remember, dan's mission for him til 3 years after he left the island
one more thing i do see the basis for the french team being Hawkings first attempt at changing things, but failing, referring to how she told desmond that she has tried to change things many times in flashes before your eyes, but has been foiled by course corrections.
Also i agree Christiain wanted ben to tun the wheel the first time, because had he not done that and locke did it the whole paradox where locke sees richard in the past doesnt happen the whole timeline gets messed up...
I just rewatched the epi: When Charlotte tells them about the well, she mentions that's where "it" is. She seemed to know what was down the well, and that was what Locke needed.
Also, she mumbles something about her Mum being upset that she (I'm assuming Charlotte) was going to marry an American. Who can that be?
Christian seems to imply to Locke that by putting the wheel back on it's axis, it will be fixed. Would that alone stop the Flashes? It did seem that after "lifting" the wheel back on it's axis, Locke did move it a little which caused another flash.
DD: Chang's pre-knowledge of the wheel could be from Faraday?
Thinking that it was Locke's destiny to turn the wheel, not to lead the others, is intriguing.
Man-made island makes sense.
Oh, I forgot to mention how perplexing it was for Jin and the LB'ers to join up the way they did. Jin had to be jumping through a different sequence than the LB'ers! That's the only way they could be separate, jump, and then all be in the same place. That means that any of the LB'ers who aren't with the current group we're watching (e.g. Rose and Bernard) are not necessarily jumping to the same times as the rest of the group.
The implications that separate groups jump to different times means that Faraday, who is now by himself, could have jumped to a different time than Sawyer's group. This would explain Faraday alone in DI time (if he was alone). Locke alone could have been jumping to different times and just happened to jump to the right time to hook up with Sawyer's group. This would also explain why Jin is now jumping with the main group, but wasn't before (because Saywer wasn't in that location before he jumped). Over all I find the idea that they are not all jumping together into the same times very perplexing. I just hope TPTB are consistent about whether or not they jump together and why.
I thought Charlotte was talking about marrying Faraday, an "American."
Dude. I forgot Faraday even explained to Sawyer that the island was "skipping like a record." Literally, the donkey wheel was skipping. Is it still? Will they still jump?
Twinkle: That was what I was wondering. By putting it back on it's axis, it's not "wiggling" around any more and the flashes will stop. But then why would the 06 all have to come back? Is there still some really bad things about to happen, and they have to come back to fix that? I don't think that bringing back the O6 is supposed to stop the flashes, but maybe to get the island on the right time line?
Maybe to freeze the wheel again if the 06'ers could be considered the island's current "constants."
However I'm unsure that "everyone" means just the 06'ers. I think it means Desmond, Frank, and should even include Ji Yeon plus our standard 06'ers. That'd be "everyone."
I don't see why they would have to be jumping at different times, couldn't they just happened to have met up after wandering around? If everyone is jumping at the same time, but not on the same place on the island, they naturally wouldn't see each other. Then when they managed to be in the same place at the same time after trekking around, they meet up. ???
Cap, that's definitely the way I'd prefer it to be, but then Jin and Sawyer's group would have been together regardless of jumping. The way they showed it, Jin jumped and suddenly he was with Sawyer's group. That would only make sense if they jumped from two different times but the same location, right?
For some reason, I just think that all the LBers are jumping to the same time at the same time even though they might not be together as a group. It happened rather fast when Jin jumped and heard the click of the gun, turned and it was Sawyer. But there could have been a few seconds into that when we saw Jin turn around. I don't think he just suddenly appeared (like suddenly disappearing in front of Danielle). I think Sawyer's group came upon him and we just didn't see that. Something is tying the LBers together in one group.
I was thinking maybe Danielle's group were like Miles, Daniel and Charlotte. That they came to the island to extract someone. We're not sure if they we're coming to the island when they crashed or if they were going some place else.
Another thing Christain and Richard told Locke he had to convince everyone who left to come back and then go to Ms Hawking. But he only convinced Jack. And now Ben is the one who is trying to convince the rest and going to Ms Hawking. I wonder if that will affect anything? I kind of wonder if Ben went to Locke and found out what he was suppose to do then killed/sacrificed him. Ben has his own agenda. He wants to go back to the island. I think the O6 is his way of doing that and he knew it when he turned the wheel.
And to be fair to Locke which I rarely am. I don't think he could have "pushed" anything even if he wanted to with that compound fracture.
I starting to wonder if Charlotte was an original inhabitant.
She said she grew up on the island. And there was this thing the D.I. Then she left with her mom only her mom and she never seen her father again. When she got back to England and she would ask about the place her mom told her that is wasn't real and that she made it up.
Could Richard be her dad? She never really said her parents were part of the D.I.
Also I thought maybe her mother didn't like Americans, that maybe her husband was American. IDK
If you go back to the original transcript of that radio distress call it sort of makes sense now. She said something along the lines of "it got them. it got them all."
So it looks like the black smoke monster got Nadine. Then it got most of Montand and possibly lured the rest of them into its hole with Montand's voice. So it did kind of "get them all".
But then they emerged and she sensed something different about them that (right or wrong) she perceived as a sickness.
The line I can't match up yet is when she said something like "we met them on the way to [black rock or radio tower?] they must have been the carriers". Or something like that. . .
So we know she didn't meet Jin on the way to the whatever, she pulled him out of the water. . .we still don't know who she met. . .
Sayidsgirl - I like the idea of Richard as Charlotte's father somehow. . .
i think the flashes may have stopped but they aren't in the present on the island, i think they will be stuck wherever the donkey wheel happened to be, imo they wont go back to the present until the wheel is turned to where it was before ben turned it, with all the bloody noses i think that flashes will be over for a while or there wont be any lb's left
i agree maven there is some bad thing or mission the 06 have to do that hasn't been defined yet. faraday basically said yesterday tht the flashes were because the orchid was messed with and didn't really perscribe to the idea that ALL the 06 had to come back to fix things.
why not ben as charlottes father and annie as her mother.
The young girl who played "Ellie" in Jughead is on CSI tonight on CBS! Such a totally different part and she still speaks in that "stilted" manner she did on LOST, without the English accent...
xxoo
I had to do a double-take on that too because the first word out of her mouth was "Namaste!"...whoa.
xxoo
lost2010
Here's what she said. I only know this because I've been rewatching everything to do with Danielle. lol
"We were coming back from the Black Rock. It was them. They were the carriers. Sayid asks "Who were the carriers?" She replies "The Others." Sayid asks "What others?" What is the Black Rock?" "Have you seen other people on this island?" Danielle replies "No,but I hear them our there in the jungle. They whisper."
I think after they came back from the Black Rock is when she killed them.
Wow! Ben and Annie as Charlotte's parents! Did Annie have an accent? I don't know if the timing of that works right though because Lostpedia has Charlotte being born in 1979. Did it say how old she was when she left? Although, none of this was recognized when Ben and Charlotte met on the island.
As for time skipping, I wish they'd all be jumping to the same times together. I was just startled by that scene where Jin and Sawyer's group meet up suddenly because it suggested to me that they weren't. Not that it will probably help, but I've submitted the question for the ABC Official Lost Podcast.
So as long as we're discussing parentage, Faraday is Ellie's child with who? Widmore?
very good question Twinkle!
xxoo
I just hope Locke did enough fixing to prevent the remaining LB's brains from melting.
SG - Do we know which set of Others she's talking about? I always wanted to see who it was she met on the way back from the Black Rock (thanks for the quote). That one scene and then I'm good. . .oh wait, I also want to see how they snatched the baby. . .hmmm, and I want some more specific symptoms of that sickness. . .okay, maybe they just whetted my appetite for more Danielle instead of clearing it all up.
I don't know what others she means.
It's before the purge so it could be Richard's people or the D.I.
She seemed to think Robert, Montand and the rest were different. We're carriers. But I don't know what she means by carriers. Maybe she was her changed team others. IDK
SG - Wonder why she says she's never seen other people on the island - only heard them - when obviously she saw Jin? Has she convinced herself that he was a hallucination? (Sorry, just picking your brain because you said you rewatched the Danielle epis)
On a side note, I wonder what happens if you're touching another person when you jump? Could they drag someone along with them in the time leap by physically hanging onto them?
Also, I had to watch 'fast'. Did Sawyer think Locke was buried alive? That's what I got out of it, but I didn't have time to go back and double check that part.
That last sentence should say. Maybe it was her changed team she was calling others.
hey Chucklez if you are out there:
Purgatory, baby!!!!
tee hee
miss ya, buddy
That's what I got out of that scene with Sawyer too.
I'm not sure what the people think when the LBers jump in and out of their time. They may thnk it's a hallucination or they may not remember it at all once they leave that time. I'm not sure.
As far as touching something when they jump going with them. I personally don't think it would happen. The people in their own time don't seem to know time is jumping so I don't think they would jump just because they were touched. But I could be wrong.
Whoops I guess I should revise that Danielle did remember Jin "disappearing" a month or two later. But maybe over the years it gets confused or forgotten.
Sayid'sgirl, I agree..I think Danielle must have chalked up seeing Jin vanish as just a crazy hallucination, part of the madness that is the Island.
That, and the fact that Jin was older and more weatherbeaten when she first met him than 16 years later. (oh and all those Asians look alike, don'tcha know...)
just kidding!!
Good comments LoCos. I waded through them this morning. Sorry if I repeat anything.
First, 2Costa, thanks for separating your ideas into paragraphs. They make your posts, which are always interesting, so much easier to read.
I saw this on another site -- they likened crazy shooting Robert to crazy grinning in the cabin Claire. Hmmmm.
I definitely want to know when Charlotte's body is. I asked this about Frogurt too. And if no one could bury them before a jump will that give them a Christian Shephard like existence?
We know that what the LBs touch travels with them, but I wonder about the reverse. I guess from the compass that if the LBs give something to someone in a different time that it stays with them when the LB disappears.
And speaking of that poof disappearance, it definitely reminds me of S2 Walt with Shannon.
As for the well and how Charlotte knew about it, I'm guessing the crazy man from her childhood told her.
And I love 2Costa's idea that Ben's been exposed to Smokey like the Frenchies and that explains his character.
I also wonder if Charlotte was Room 23ed off the Island to make her forget the Island.
As for the time jumps and who's going when, they better all jump to the same time because there's not enough paper in the world for us to follow them if it's otherwise. Reminds of that roomin Season 1 Heroes where Hiro has tried to trace the timeline.
Keep up the good commenting. I'm going to look at fish and bugs in NOLA today. And of course eat beignets at Cafe du Monde and hopefully other good food too.
I believe the reason Danielle didn't recognize Jin in 2004 is because she hadn't had that memory yet. The same way Desmond didn't have the memory of his meeting at the hatch with Dan until 3 years later.
Whatever the rules are for how and when people remember encounters that occurred during a time-travel adventure, they are murky at best. I can't find any consistency based on what we've seen so far.
- 2004 Daniel doesn't remember meeting Desmond in 1996 at Oxford.
- 2007 Desmond only remembers bits and pieces of meeting Daniel in Oxford.
- 2007 Desmond remembers meeting Daniel at the hatch only after 3 or more years have passed.
- 2004 time-flashing Charlotte only recognizes Daniel as a man from her past just before she dies.
- Penny, at the stadium, may or may not have a memory of Desmond calling her on Christmas Eve 1996.
- 2004 Danielle does not appear to recognize Jin.
These things don't add up for me.
Maybe you can't remember a paradox?
Maybe that's why the LB's brains are melting, because everything they experience is a paradox.
I bet Danielle thought Jin was an other like the ones she heard in the jungle and probably saw signs of. She obviously thought she was a carrier. If I were her, I would later assume Jin was an Other and somehow responsible for what happened to my team.
- 2004 Daniel doesn't remember meeting Desmond in 1996 at Oxford.
- 2007 Desmond remembers meeting Daniel at the hatch only after 3 or more years have passed.
I like to think of those paradoxical changes to the past only coming to bear on the "bleeding edge of time" as it relates to the events of the show. Think about the twanging string analogy. You can twang a string all you want, but it won't make a noise unless it's connected to something at both ends.
- 2004 time-flashing Charlotte only recognizes Daniel as a man from her past just before she dies.
- Penny, at the stadium, may or may not have a memory of Desmond calling her on Christmas Eve 1996.
- 2004 Danielle does not appear to recognize Jin.
These appear to all be "passage of time" holes in memory. We all forget some things over time. Danielle's example is the hardest to excuse, but by the time she sees Jin again, she's been friggin batty in the woods for a decade-plus.
- 2007 Desmond only remembers bits and pieces of meeting Daniel in Oxford.
This, I don't recall. Where is this factoid sourced?
Good morning,
Safe Travels Memphish.
Lost2010 - you know i never even thought the sawyer thought Locke was buried alive. but that would explain his reaction.
the thing about danielle is that she seemed like a completely sane person that has become totally acceptant of an insane situation.
she seems like she would have been on one of jacobs list.
I have trouble remembering people I met once last month. It took me 9 months to realize that the girl up front singing songs in church was the same girl I met in my small group at the women's retreat. I puzzled it out after she called me by name one day.
I can't remember the face of my kindergarten teacher and probably would not connect it if I met her now at the same age she was when she was my teacher. And Daniel and Desmond are already all screwed up memory time-line wise.
Now Penny and Desmond would be difficult. I checked out the timing. Des showed up in 1996 and asked her for her phone number and told her he'd call her Christmas Eve 2004 (The Constant). In 2001, Penny shows up at the stadium and gives Des a love letter in the book Our Mutual Friend (Live Together, Die Alone). She could naturally assume that the Des that visited her is this Des, with no time travel involved, so she might have not mentioned the phone call arrangement. She figured Des already knew about it.
Anyway, I guess it depends on how much memory fog you're willing to credit them with. I have substantial memory fog myself so it seems more reasonable to me.
BigDog said: she seemed like a completely sane person that has become totally acceptant of an insane situation
That's a great way to describe it. That's how I felt about her when the Losties met her in 2004 too. I think her memory fog can be attributed to lumping disappearing Jin in with the Others. Then the only difficulty is her saying that she's "never seen them." Still if I'd only seen one Other for a total of 20 minutes and he disappeared on me twice and then 16 years of voices, I might say the same.
Kyle said: - 2007 Desmond only remembers bits and pieces of meeting Daniel in Oxford.
I think this was from a recent episode so technically 2008, when Des goes to Oxford and is asked what year he visited Faraday at Oxford and he can't remember. I think Faraday's and Des's memories are all screwed up from skipping all over/time experiments that they can't fix what happened when very well.
i noticed a few things.
in "this place is death", right before Locke goes down the well. He says goodbye to James(sawyer), then he turns to miles and says" I'll see you miles when i get back". I think that is important. One might deduce that Locke has some sort of precognition about the future, which I'm sure he does(like when he picked his compass and knife before they were his). Then you think, if Locke is right, then at the very least Miles will be alive and Locke knows he's is going to make it back. I think its something slightly different. Richard has already told Locke that he is gonna have to die and come back with the 06. I think at this point he only half believes it, as we see a little later it takes Christian reaffirming the idea that he is gonna definitely die on his mission when he comes back, to make Locke truly believe it. Lets look at it in the Desmond/billy pilgrim/unstuck way. Somewhere inside Locke knows what Richard told him is true. In the same way that Locke is always devoted to his mission and goes on instinct, even when it makes him seem like a huge dick..i.e. when he left Dan to do his death march into the jungle, or when he knifed Naomi in the back, or let Boone be sacrificed..etc. Locke is looking at his fate with tunnel vision, and his actions show that. Well BACK TO MY POINT, Locke only says "ill see u miles when i get back", because deep down he knows he's coming back as a corpse and miles will be one of the only ones that will see him!
2costa, that's your best observation ever. I could only find one clear reference to that aspect of that conversation online, so it's obviously gotten past a lot of people, including the Lostpedia peeps. Good ear!
mmmmm....beignets. Have fun Memphish!
Twinkle- I'm totally with you on the memory thing. I'm on facebook and people are reconnecting with me that I barely remember- I'm having to get out my yearbooks to see if I can remember who they are! Isn't that sad?! So....as far as Danielle goes she might remember that there was an Asian guy who appeared and disappeared mysteriously, but whether she would remember his face after 16 years of isolation and insanity, I don't know.
And 2costa, that is interesting about what Locke says to Miles. I'll have to go back and see that again. But I like the idea that he says that to Miles because Miles talks to dead people.
Another thought I had is maybe Charlotte's parents are Horace and Olivia. Perhaps Horace knew the purge was coming and got Olivia and Charlotte off the island(i wonder who her sisters are, Claire's mother could be an older Olivia). Incidentally, was it just me or did Charlotte have a much more Australian accent in this last episode, then her usual English accent?
Another interesting thing i thought about that may tie in to how ellie and widmore left the island, is their apparent ages. Although Old looking i can't imagine widmore or hawkings being older then 65 and that's a stretch, i would lean towards 60 or something. Assuming Ellie and Widmore were 20-25 in 1955 on the island. Then is 2007 off the island that would make them anywhere from 72-77 years old, which seems way older then they are. It makes sense if they leaved by turning the wheel or by other then perfect bearings, In the same way that Ben "lost" almost a year of real world time between when he turned the wheel and popped in the Tunisian desert. Well maybe hawkings and widmore jumped 10 years into the future, when they left the island, Which might poise them perfectly to advise hanso and dharma about the island or how to find it. I waffle between thinking dharma was the brainchild of widmore, hawkings, or hanso himself. I think there has to be some kind of time loss or jump for hawkings' and Widmore's age to make any sense.
I think Hawkings may be a nun now, so her having a child, may have surprised Ben.
I don't think Daniel is timeless, i think he may have been conceived on the island, yet born of island like ji yeon, and that may give him protection form the flashes, as come have notices Locke and Dan don't get the nosebleeds, but if you think about it Locke, Desmond, and Dan are the only ones who have flirted with being unstuck in time and not died from it. As i mentioned earlier Locke correctly picked which items were his when he was a child and that didn't start to make him get all messed up.
I think part of why ji yeon doesn't have to go back is that she was conceived on the island so she doesn't count in the real world, meaning she didn't come on flight 815 like Aaron did she was created on the island. Remember long ago Ben told the 815'ers that gos doesn't see the island, well maybe that's why Ben is so hard up to fix the fertility problem because those created on the island are outside of "God's plan or fate", We know little about desmond's childhood, perhaps he is so special to change things because he was conceived on the island?
Hi peeps!
Twinkle, when I watched it, I just assumed that Jin and the other group had eventually converged to the same point over the period of their jumps and treks. :-)
Great idea 2costa bout Miles and Locke connecting after he comes back dead! Hooyeah, looking forward to that scene!
Ive been thinking for a while now that Locke may turn out to be Jacob. First we have seen him go from john locke to jeremy bentham, so become another J name as jacob doesn't seem that far off. Whoever Jacob is, he leads the others and seems to make their "rules". Rules are part of games, who have they shown playing games more than anyone, LOcke! now follow me here this is how i got there this week. As i mentioned earlier Locke seems to have tunnel vision about his missions for the island, but this week there was one glaring exception. When Jin made locke promise he wouldn't seek out Sun, and if he did to tell her he was dead. It appeared in the future that locke did indeed fulfill his promise. He never sought out Sun, and he gave Ben the ring so he could technically keep his word. Who always seems to live up to their promises to a fault, why ben and the others of course. Like when ben let the 06 leave because he promised or let mike and walt leave like he promised. Another time locke put his mission aside and chose loyalty was right after he killed naomi, he let jack make the call to the freighter instead of killing him, i think this was partly because he knows jack is a good man and wont kill a good man unless he has too(very otherslike rule), but he also knew deep down he couldn't do it just as he couldn't shoot young widmore, the island wouldn't even let him test fate and pull the trigger. If you'll remember locke couldn't kill the dea narc in his weed cult even though it cost him his surrogate family, why?because he wasn't a bad person(even cooper who was a bad person, locke couldn't killfor that matter). So locke won't kill a good man if he doesn't have to and he goes to lengths to keep a promise just as the others, The first time we see a locke flashback he is playing a role playing military game on the phone. much in the way the others wear military uniforms and role play or put on beards. I think they are starting to show us how locke became jacob. Chistain didn't mention jacob this last time he saw locke either, i thought that was telling. Christain is a place holder waiting for locke to come back dead.
I've always disliked the Locke-as-Jacob theory (almost as much as the wormhole theory, but look where that's gotten me!).
How do you explain that Jacob asked Locke to help him? Help him...what?
How has what Locke has been doing since then been in any way helpful to Jacob, except that we haven't seen him since then and there was speculation that he was being held captive?
Sayid's Girl,
RE: Another thing Christain and Richard told Locke he had to convince everyone who left to come back and then go to Ms Hawking. But he only convinced Jack.
Then next Locke asked Richard was how is supposed to do that and Richard told him you have to die. From what we know so far it appeared Locke followed insturctions this time.
in the same way that Christian can go along with the lb's on their time flashes. they were obviously, in the past but christian remembered all that had happened in 2004/2005. So if lockes body is brought to the island I'll assume he will be timeless and will be able to visit people at any time on the island. He needed Locke to help him become himself, that's why Jacob wore the beard so locke wouldn't be recognized as jacob, i don't even think Ben knows jacob is locke or maybe they all know, im not sure about that. I'm with you kyle i never liked the theory , but it's starting to shape up. Locke needs christian to be his proxy, because just as desmond didn't remember visiting faraday in the past until, faraday told him to visit him, locke wont truly "be" jacob until his body is brought back to the island, maybe he(jacob) was visible that one time because of the full moon and the ring of ash?
i think all of locke's actions have propelled things towards the flashes, which in turn probably make hawkings and widmore what they are today, its the terminator paradox all over again, everything had to happen this way in order for dharma to ever be formed in the first place. To answer your question, how has locke helped jacob, everything hes done has gotten us were we are, so locke had to do all of it in order to come back to the island dead and thus have Christianesque apparition status
Diggity
Ok, You're right he does seem to have followed instructions (or maybe Ben helped him along with that), but I don't think his death convinced anyone to go back except maybe Jack.
Do you think Locke's death is what convinced Jack to go back?
It doesn't seem to have convinced anyone else. And Ben is the one who convinced Sun not Locke by telling her that her husband is still alive.
On the subject of Jacob, my brain has shut off completely concerning him, and I don't care what or who he is anymore. :-p
Yeah, I'm turned off to Jacob too, especially Christian/Jacob. How snotty was that comment, "Well, then it wouldn't be called sacrifice"? I feel like Christian/Jacob is just making up stuff Locke has to do to satisfy the arbitrary whim of whatever kind of being Christian/Jacob is.
Jacob seems petty, selfish, and fickle to me, not the sort of person worth following.
Hey Sayid's Girl,
I guess this is kind of my take, followed by some specualation. As we have seen, Locke isn't that best at following directions. We also don't know how long Locke was alive off island before he dies.
My theory is Locke finally tries to pulls a Ben. Locke obviously tries to convince the 06 to go back but doesn't get a lot of traction. At least thats what we are led to believe so far by the story. Locke figures in order for his death to mean anything he is going to have to involve the one man who can truly benefit from it, Benjamin Linus. Because going to visit the 06 is once again not following Richard's instructions.
Ben must have a selfish reason to get involved in this, so he begins to champion Locke's case for his own benefit. I just cant fall for the Ben is actully a good guy now theory.
This is what puzzles me greatly at this point. Why is Ben doing all of this if he can't return?
Do we ever here Richard say Ben must come back, or do we just hear him say that the 06/Locke's friends have to return?
I agree with what you're saying except for one point. Ben said that he went to see Locke. Locke didn't go to him.
I don't believe Ben can't go back.
He told Hurley that Jack and Sayid was with him because "they realized we all want the same thing to go back to the island.
I think going back was his plan when he turned the donkey wheel. He's never been honest about anything.
Richard told Locke he had to bring his people back, everyone who left.
I don't know if Ben would be considered his people or not.
I agree sayid's girl. I am beginning to question everything Ben has said now. Things we just took as part of the story, thinking Ben's character was being used to relay mythology, rules, etc to us. But now I'm wondering if anything is true and if this is just one big long con on his part.
Danielle was really on the money when she said that Ben (as Henry Gale in the net) would lie for a long time.
Hey Sayid's Girl,
Thanks for the correction. You are right that Ben went to see Locke instead of vice versa. But how/why did Ben go to see Locke? All I was trying to get across is that Locke is playing the reverse role; trying to use Ben as his pawn the way Ben once used Locke.
I still think Locke implants the idea that Ben needs to seek him out and then tells Ben he must return to he island. He cant really tell Ben he needs to return because bad things are happening to his people. I'm sure Ben knows whats going on after he spun the wheel.
Same puzzled question at the end. Can Ben really go back or not?
Hopefully we will get an answer soon. Pretty easy to guess when if you look at the press releases :)
We now know where Bernard is: He's at Seattle Grace and he's suffering from colonrectal cancer....poor Rose.
Heheh, yeah Twinkle, Jacob is a fickle b*tch! X-D
Hey Diggity
I see what you're saying and it could be possible. I never thought of it that way. That Locke is the manipulator this time.
As far as Ben being able to go back, it's my belief he can and wants to. And he has been manipulating his way back since he turned the donkey wheel. That's why it's hard for me to see Locke as the manipulator.
DiggityDirge said...
We also don't know how long Locke was alive off island before he dies.
I think we are given a timeline to how long Locke was off the Island. Since every time they go back to the island group they give the little text thing at the bottom that tells you this is
Three Years Ago
By that we know that Locke left shortly after the 06 left (maybe less than a month)
And how long can your body remain in that perserved state after death and embalming. So he was off the island for almost 3 years... unless TPTB drop him into the future like they did with Ben. If this is the case I am lead to speculate Locke would only travel a few months, which still gives him about 2 1/2 years before hanging himself.
As well my take on Locke killing himself is, as DD has said part of his plan. He is indeed using Ben as pawn for one simple thing. SUN. Locke promised Jin that HE wouldn't bring Sun back to the island, but by making Ben believe that it is all his doing Ben will inturn bring Sun to the Island and clear John of having to lie, because as far as I know Locke has never lied. He may have been overly poetic in some of his answers, but I don't think he ever actually lied.
Lost Chibbie if you are out there...
I just wanted you to know I saw your post of my Lost sculpture on flicker with the memo boxes. If you want the finished picture... the one you have there is an in production shot... I will gladly send it to you as well as a list of what every thing is in the picture so you ca make it more accurate.
If you want hit me up here or on the TLC Message Board.
I thought of the whole LOST relief thing when I saw this on Jorge's Blog check out that cake...
http://dispatchesfromtheisland.blogspot.com/
That 100th Episode Cake is awesome!
You guys could be right. Locke may be manipulating Ben. I'm sure Locke would want to get everyone back. I'm so use to Ben being the manipulator I guess I just don't think of it being Locke.
Yes, Ben definitely seems to be out of the loop on a lot of things lately.
Happy Valentine's Day to everyone! I hope all our Losties eventually find happiness.
Happy Valentines Day!
Happy Valentine's Day!!
Happy Valentines Day.Spend it with your constant.
Happy St. Valentine's Day LoCos!
Happy Valentine's Day.
I feel bad for John Locke.It seems that there is always something going into, or coming out of those poor legs.Also,maybe his story should be called Gullibles Travels.
He tries to get it right,but it seems to go so wrong.
Funny there was never any mention of Naomi when Miles talked to Locke. Maybe the next time they meet. Great one 2costa.
Will the real Jacob,please stand up.
X-D
Oh Village, you do come up with the great ones, heheh! Gullible's Travels, too good! But yes, you are totally right about Locke, I feel the same way about him. Sometimes he's got the opposite of the Midas touch when he goes on a tear with a mission.
The Lost Community: Join hosts David A Dein and Steve The Goog Guglich as they make heads or tails about the episode "This Place is Death", along the way the speculate about the Holy Spirit, and wonder if a bloodbath may be coming down the pike? Hmm...
If you'd like to be a guest on the podcast, have any theories, discover any clues, or just want to say "Hi!", contact TLCpodcast@gmail.com (mp3 comments are accepted as well), or leave a voice mail or fax at (206) 202-3512
Episode 54 - This Place is Death
Hi all,
I think this was a good episode, better than the previous two. I still think that the story is leading up to everyone being back on the island and having to work together to prevent a big disaster, something to do with the original Dharma.
If there is ever a Lost themed rollercoaster somewhere I am going to make sure I keep my arms inside the car !!
I got the impression just before Charlotte dies that she is mentally time travelling, and Daniel is feeding her the information about the well, etc. from the other point in time.
Interesting thoughts Zort! And funny too. Wow, I would love to be on the team that gets to design the Lost them park!
Not caught up. Too sick to think. New post.
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