Thursday, April 24, 2008

The Shape of Things To Come - Season 4, Episode 9


Lost is back. Welcome to the war. We're all gonna die.

398 comments:

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Melissa_Lossa said...

Ha - first!

DeDJeZTeR said...

From last post.

And Ben is still on the Island during the Flash Forwards, but is jumping into the future to give Sayid instuctions...
Mind = BLOWN!!!!!!!

Melissa_Lossa said...

Ah - and here's Jack, shaking answers out of Dan.

Ellen said...

Wow...

Capcom said...

Jack's got a chip in him too, they put it in his cheeseburger!!!

Ellen said...

Markin' a spot for email. Back soon.
xxoo

DeDJeZTeR said...

Maybe Jack has Appendisitis and has been trying to cover the pain. For me it felt like I pulled a muscle for a week before anything got bad, then I got it out with moments to spare.

DeDJeZTeR said...

This is what Ben did when he was with Alex I am guessing.

Capcom said...

Dang Memphish, you bloody called it!!!!!!!!!!

DeDJeZTeR said...

Widmore has been to the Island, and is talking like he was in control of Dharma. This could very well be true.

I wonder if the last scene will be Ben going to kill Penny and Desmond saving the day... lol

The only true survivors of the island. That would be cool.

memphish said...

Wow! Brilliant episode!

Ange said...

E-mail mark, and Wowzer!

Capcom said...

Let's hope so Ded!

Capcom said...

BTW, thanks Dennis!

memphish said...

So what the heck is up with the "doctor is fine" Morse code message?

Melissa_Lossa said...

If Penny dies, I will be so mad. She must have a reunion with Desmond!

Codysmom said...

simply amazing!

Darkaardvark said...

So- I tend to root for Ben. I love his character, he's delightfully evil and I'm not so sure that he isn't on the morally 'good' side a lot of the time. But killing Penny crosses the line. Penny/Des is really the only storyline that offers any HOPE.

On the other hand, Widmore is a jerk and absolutely, positively evil.

So how am I supposed to feel about this?

DeDJeZTeR said...

Off Topic: Gas is going up again... by .22¢ in NY. I say everyone calls in sick tomorrow or rides a bike to work... everywhere.

STRIKE, STRIKE, STRIKE!!!!
: )

memphish said...

How did Smokey miss Keamy?

Capcom said...

I thought that it was amazing how when Ben was sitting by the window after Alex got shot, the camera was coming up on him and the left side of his face was in shock, and then the camera went around him and the right side of his face was totally winced up! M.E. is incredible.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Yeah, Bernard caught him there. Very weird about the doc.

Capcom said...

That's what I was wondering Memphish.

DeDJeZTeR said...

Dark, I am having the same Dillema. I just don't know what to think at this point.

Ded = Dumbfounded.

memphish said...

I loved the comment Widmore made about Ben's eyes.

So did Widmore take over the funding after Hanso and it was actually his people who were purged or did Widmore fund the purge and Ben's hostiles only to have Ben turn on him later?

Melissa_Lossa said...

ded - I hear ya! Gas is $3.70 here right now.

memphish said...

I have to drive tomorrow Ded. I buying a new iMac tomorrow for tax-free Tennessee weekend!

LostIt said...

I wonder why Ben can't kill Widmore? I'm thinking maybe it's related to a time paradox type of thing?

And what rules did he change?

Was that line about Australia being the key tothe whole game at the beginning of the episode significant for the show?

Also, whee Ben showed up in tunisia, it looked like he didn't know where or when he was at first.

If the doctor is fine on the freighter then I guess the island is now ahead of the freigher in time and he hadn't been killed yet?

And OMG, I'm still upset about Alex!

Capcom said...

Perhaps when Ben said that he changed the rules, they had previously had a deal (some sort of Geneva convention type thing?) that they would fight each other for the island at any cost, except they would keep family out of it. ?????

Steve said...

Ok... so where does this rank? Top ten episodes ever?

Melissa_Lossa said...

Wild thought - is it possible that Widmore is a Hanso? Maybe not Alvar, but someone?

Sayid'sgirl said...

So why can't Ben kill Widmore.

memphish said...

I still can't figure out the time rules. The boat and the Island seem to be the same.

I like the idea that Widmore can't be killed because he's somehow immortal or that the universe won't let him die -- yet. But if I were going to be immortal, I'd rather do it in my age 32 or so body rather than my balding grey-haired body. Like Dr. Eyeliner.

Capcom said...

Dying's too good for him. :o) If he kills Penney, Widmore would have to live with that.

LostIt said...

Ben better not kill Penny! I'm betting that Desmond saves her in the end.

Darkaardvark said...

" Perhaps when Ben said that he changed the rules, they had previously had a deal (some sort of Geneva convention type thing?) that they would fight each other for the island at any cost, except they would keep family out of it. ?????"

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. I missed that Ben said "HE changed the rules" It definitely appears, from what he said to Widmore (you went and changed the rules) that they had a gentleman's agreement, or something of the sort.

DeDJeZTeR said...

The Doc is fine in the passed. Maybe Miles told them that Ben had a man on the boat. They get the message a few days in the passed and they think it is the Doc, they kill him, dump the body and it washes ashore when it did... or something to that effect... the point is that The doc is still alive when they get the message... maybe?

Lost 2010 said...

Much much better. Okay, I'll climb down off the bridge and quit keeping Jack company now.

And luckily I'm not at all attached to Penny. So I feel perfectly okay with rooting for Ben at this point.

Codysmom said...

Sayid'sgirl said...

So why can't Ben kill Widmore.

Maybe that's part of the rules.....

memphish said...

But Widmore changed the rules. Why can't Ben change the "we can't kill each other" rule. Or maybe the rule only applies to blood relatives. That's the kind of word play Ben would engage in.

Darkaardvark said...

Also, the next episode will be the first time they really try to make it appear as though a character is in severe mortal danger when we know through flashforwards that they survive. There have been moments, sure, but this seems like the first time it'll actually be a major focus of the episode.

Will be interesting to see whether it sort of falls flat, or whether it doesn't affect it much at all. I'm guessing the latter.

Lost 2010 said...

So, um, the promo kind of answered one of my problems with the Oceanic 6. I feel so much better. I just knew Jack wouldn't desert anybody.

memphish said...

I agree LOST 2010 about this finally being a good reason for Jack to leave. Got to feel like Claire's days are numbered too.

Codysmom said...

could jacob have made the rules?

Lost 2010 said...

Maybe the island won't let them kill each other. I mean if it won't let Michael do himself in then surely it could keep these two from killing each other.

Capcom said...

I wanna see Juliet operate on Jack with bamboo kitchen utensils. :o)

Steve said...

I am with lost 2010 and dark... I have always tended to lean pro-Ben, and the more screen time he gets, the more I understand and agree with his motives.

DeDJeZTeR said...

Memphish said: "Going to get a new i-Mac."

Judges.... .... .... .... .... .... .....

They'll allow it
lol

memphish said...

LOL Ded. Thanks judges.

Capcom said...

Good point, it would be interesting if that was the case...that they can't die in all this war, they can only kill everyone around them in the process.

DeDJeZTeR said...

I Still say that it is Because Widmore has been to the Island and like Tom said "The Island wont let him." (die that is)

memphish said...

So any guesses on where Widmore is hiding Penny? And how he's gotten her to agree to it?

If Ben can't kill Widmore, do you think Sayid can? I guess not, or he'd be next on Sayid's list.

Capcom said...

Memphish, you can drive with your lights on. :-)

Melissa_Lossa said...

I know we always complain about the promos showing too much, but I have to hope there's more going on next week than the gripping Jack falls down storyline.

I agree, though - this is the perfect way to get Jack off the island. Plus I think it's a law that if a group of characters is stranded somewhere without access to real medical care, somebody has to get appendicitis.

Capcom said...

"somebody has to get appendicitis"

Heehee.

Sayid'sgirl said...

So do you think Claire and Sawyer will make it to the beach? I don't care about Miles.

lost2010
I think that may be it. The "island" won't let him kill Widmore.
This seems like some kind of eternal cat and mouse game to me.

Melissa_Lossa said...

So, codysmom - how was your first Lost on the laptop? :)

Steve said...

The question that is burning inside me, and I am surprised nobody else has touched on it, is this:

How cool is Smokey!? Seriously, total rampage slaughter mode! Ben is either really lucky that it didn't target him once he shut off the fence, or he can control it (in)directly?

Capcom said...

I agree Sayidsgirl.

I think that Miles might have an epiphany....and need to change his shorts. He looked scared!

Capcom said...

Right Steve! So much else went on, we forgot about Smokey! That was incredible.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I wonder if Desmond is still on the island in 2005 or if he's alive.
If Penny's still looking for him it must be awfully hard to hide her.

memphish said...

Do you think Ben was able to program it to avoid people Smokey had already encountered and scanned, or people Ben had entered into a certain database? It didn't come after Sawyer even though it got close to him. But then, again, why didn't it get Keamy?

Steve said...

...and, if he controls it, does that mean he killed Eko and the pilot?

Lost 2010 said...

And the doctor on the boat is dead too. . . so just getting to the boat won't do Jack much good. You know, they gave me some pretty stiff painkillers when I had my appendix out - maybe that's how he gets hooked.

memphish said...

Good question Steve.

DeDJeZTeR said...

What I want to know now is how did Ben make it target the Mercenaries and no one else. Do you think he just said kill the guys in the trees?

Codysmom said...

melissa, it's good with the laptop... thanks!
I'm gonna want to watch that again... maybe right now.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Maybe by 2005, Des and Penny have been reunited and are in hiding together? We can hope, can't we?

memphish said...

The scene with Ben tracking the guy through Iraq reminded me of Alias.

Steve said...

Perhaps Keamy has been scanned previously? (or, the owers that be simply didn't target him so we'd have an antagonist for future episodes)

memphish said...

So what do you think Widmore gets nightmares about? He said he drinks Scotch in bed because of them.

And how has Ben managed to hide the Island again? And where do those Dharma supplies come from?

And is Danielle really dead? And do I care anymore?

Sayid'sgirl said...

steve
I was wondering the same thing about Eko anyway, forgot about the pilot. And why didn't it kill him the first time.

Steve said...

It's possible Ben knew the names of all the mercenaries, not just Keamy, and told Smokey specifically who to target.

Lost 2010 said...

Eternal chess game I think. He did call Alex a pawn.

memphish said...

Slowly but surely putting it together that Ben and Widmore must have had some agreement about their families. That's why Ben told Alex the bit about them using her against him. It was to protect her because those were the rules. He wasn't seeing the future -- obviously for once.

Darkaardvark said...

I don't think Ben has full control over the Smoke Monster. Besides, he hasn't been at New Otherton all the time, right? I'm trying to think... when Eko died, Ben was at the Hydra? I guess he could travel back and forth, but if that house is his only source of control, I'm not sure I buy it.

Smokey seems to be intelligent on its own. Scanning Juliet/Kate, staring down Eko the first time, dragging Ben are just a few examples that I don't feel came from orders.

Steve said...

memphish said...

So what do you think Widmore gets nightmares about? He said he drinks Scotch in bed because of them.


Not just any scotch, McCutcheon.

memphish said...

Anyone have any theories to Ben's arm being hurt when he arrived in Tunisia? Does that form of travel do that to you? Did something happen? They made an obvious point to show it.

Lost 2010 said...

I'm starting to think Ben's not just some guy. I mean, they don't say, "I know who you are." They say: "I know WHAT you are."

Capcom said...

Me too, I was wondering if Ben sent out Smokey to kill Eko.

I can't wait to see the caps of the DHARMA patch on Ben's coat. On my jerky paused VCR it looks like the Flame, but that would be no fun.

memphish said...

Has anyone gotten a good look at the new logo yet? It reminded me a bit of the Vertigo poster.

Lost 2010 said...

Has there already been a point in the show when his arm was hurt in that way? I figure it's a way for us to mark time later. Like Ben's arm will get hurt in that way and we'll know he'll soon be making his trip to tunisia.

memphish said...

To me Widmore treated Ben like an underling. You know like a guy he'd leave the bathroom sink running on.

Sayid'sgirl said...

That must have been why when Locke and Sawyer came to ask about the code he said they had to get to the other house. That's where he controls smokey from. And he said something about the tree line then too but I can't remember exactly what it was.

Capcom said...

Wid called Ben "boy".

Melissa_Lossa said...

Ethan told Juliet that the trip could be a little rough. That was the first thing I thought of when Ben threw up. Not sure about the wound, though - it could have been from the trip, or somewhere else.

The parka indicates that Ben either started somewhere much colder, or he expected to END UP somewhere cold. Or, he didn't know where he would end up, and wanted to be prepared. If he was injured before he left, maybe he left in a hurry and didn't have time to calibrate his journey.

memphish said...

When Sayid tackles Ben, it seemed like he was expecting it to be someone, but not Ben. Who would Sayid think was following him?

Lost 2010 said...

So I guess we now also know why Hurley's sorry he followed Locke. Even Sawyer is sorry he followed Locke at this point.

Capcom said...

Maybe your arm gets stretched out a little in the wormhole when it closes up. JK

memphish said...

Key Ben line -- when your grief becomes anger you never get over it (my paraphrase). Of course that's what he was counting on with Sayid so that Ben's war was now Ben and Sayid's war. I think Ben had to know that Nadia had been killed and traveled purposely to Tunisia to get to Iraq. In fact I wouldn't put it past Ben to be the one doing the killing. How'd he get that traffic camera photo in the first place?

And here's the big question -- what is so important about the Island that all Ben's people are willing to die for it?

Lost 2010 said...

Maybe it was the polar bear that ended up in the same spot at a different time - it scratched him just a little. . .

Melissa_Lossa said...

Poor Sawyer always seems like the last person to know what's going on.

And I love how he's gotten protective of Claire and Hurley, now that Charlie is gone. It's very sweet.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I was thinking maybe Hurley was sorry because he has to show them where Jacob's cabin is. And who knows what is going to happen after that.
I just thought of something there is one more doctor on the island Christian. His death seems questionable. :)

Lost 2010 said...

Definitely Ben was manipulating Sayid . . .definitely. I love Ben.

Steve said...

Good catch lost 2010, "WHAT" he is might be interesting, but I think he's probably still quite human.

I would be willing to accept that after the purge he sampled a few mixed drinks (read: life extension project, clairvoyance or Casimir effect at The Orchid).

memphish said...

Sayid's Girl -- you just made me gasp! What if ghost or whatever he is Christian Shephard does the surgery or at least walks Dr. Burke through it.

Capcom said...

For X-Files fans: Every time they showed Ben's club, I kept expecting the "shhhhuppppp" sound of the ice pick coming out of the end. :o)

memphish said...

I like that Sawyer's being sweet and protective, but whoever is writing his lines is doing a bad job. They are so gosh darn tootin' obvious they're bugging me. I also love how they killed the 3 randos with 1 shot, but can't take Sawyer out with 100.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Sayid only has Ben's word who the man was and where he was and that he was speeding away from the area where Nadia was killed.
It more than likely was all lies.

memphish said...

Well we know he lied about how he got there. Though he started with the truth about the Syrian border. Thankfully Sayid pressed him about the real matter, and he lied. I'm guessing though that the O6 are going to head on a bearing toward Fiji. Ben loves to mix the lies with the truth.

Steve said...

sayid'sgirl: yes, but any good lie has a bit of truth mixed in.

I agree he twisted the facts to suit his own ends, but I am sure the guy was involved in some way.

Lost 2010 said...

memphish - I wondered the same about the not getting shot - couldn't they have at least given him something to duck behind?

Steve said...

lost 2010: Agreed. I laughed when Sawyer flipped the rotting picnic table over for cover.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Fiji does seem central in all the stories. The freighter was ported at Fiji. The Black Rock left from Fiji. Desmond was trying to get to Fiji in his sailboat.

Melissa_Lossa said...

capcom - I thought the exact same thing! I was waiting for someone to take an ice pick to the back of the neck!

Codysmom said...

sorry, OT.... but just started watching again and I think Kate is pregnant.... when Jack is feeling sick, tells her he's taking antibiotics for his bad stomach and she says crackers always help her...

Sayid'sgirl said...

steve
I agree with you completely. There are always truths mixed in with the lies.
He was probably Widmore's man and Ben wanted him out of the way. He may or may not have had anything to do with Nadia's death.

Lost 2010 said...

And I hate to admit this, but I kind of thought they should have let him get shot - at least a little bit. Not killed - of course. But it would have been much more dashing for a bleeding hero to rescue the damsel in distress - no matter how cliche'.

memphish said...

Don't get me started on gratuitous Kateness in this episode. :p

Off to bed. Gotta get some sleep before parent/teacher conferencing and computer shopping.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I loved Hurley throwing (what ever it was) through the window so Sawyer could get in.
I think the blood splatter on his shirt worked well.

Capcom said...

Yes, Memphish! Kate's taking a sponge bath on the beach, and we get not even an open-shirt Dez. :-(

LOL, Codysmom, I thought the same thing about the crackers!!!

Lost 2010 said...

codysmom - please, no. Although I did pick up on that cracker reference too. I chose to push it to the back of my mind.

Steve said...

sayid'sgirl: That's what I think too. Ben wants two things at that point, to kill the guy in the photo and to recruit Sayid... the easiest way to do that is to incite Sayid's rage over Nadia's death.

(which, by the way, if the date was in 2005 that must have meant that Sayid and Nadia didn't waste any time getting married and she was killed very soon afterward... possibly during the honeymoon?)

Capcom said...

It would have been a little more believable if Sawyer was protecting himself from bullets with the lid of a metal trashcan maybe. :-)

Codysmom said...

I agree the spongebath on the beach with Kate was gratuitous, but I really think she's pregnant by saying "crackers always make me feel better" and I'm interested to know how this pans out with the O6 story and Aaron..

Lost 2010 said...

I think it was meant to show just how sick Jack is. Kate's stripping on the beach for his benefit and he barely spares her a glance.

She did have Mr. Lost2010's full attention however.

Steve said...

capcom: And on that note... what? Only one r.p.g.?

Sayid'sgirl said...

You know I was just thinking the promo we got at the end of Meet Kevin Johnson seemed to show us something completely different than what we got tonight. Not that I'm complaining. But they were showing people running across the freighter and saying we'd find out how the O6 got off the island, etc.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Dark UFO has some screen caps of Ben and his parka up already. The logo looks like it could be a logo - it looks like a swirl with a flower in the middle.

And Ben looks FREAKED in these shots. Either it's a really rough trip, or things didn't go as they were supposed to (which would explain the parka in the desert).

Lost 2010 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Codysmom said...

ok, back to re=watching

Melissa_Lossa said...

Sayid's girl - I think that promo after Kevin Johnson was for the rest of the season, not just this week.

Kind of like the BSG promos on Sci-fi, all of which end with the words "All Will be Revealed." Way to get viewers' hopes up every week!

Capcom said...

LOL Steve. :-)

A flower??? Yessssssssssss! Does it look like Memphish's Vertigo idea too? That would fit with Ben up-chucking.

LOL Lost2010!

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

I have to admit, my brain is reeling from this episode. I won't have much intelligible commentary for a day or so.

However: Yes, lostit, I think we can take Hurley's throwaway line about Australia being the key to the game as very meaningful. Hurley's throwaways are always meaningful (like when Ron throws out a wacky theory about something in the Harry Potter books).

Ben is definitely unstuck in time, if not space as well (hello, Room 23), and that logo looks an awful lot like a stylized orchid.

Was Alex going to be Ben's constant? Is Charles unstuck in time as well (explaining his claim to the Island), and "the rules" are that constants are off-limits? Sort of a LOST version of a nuclear stalemate? And will Sayid now serve as Ben's constant?

What did Sayid do or not do that resulted in Nadia's death? How did he think with his heart and not his gun in relation to her murder?

Why has Sawyer become so protective of Hurley all of a sudden? Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Sayid'sgirl said...

melissa
You're probably right about the promo.

Steve said...

I agree... The Orchid video was a teaser for season 4, so my money is on the new DHARMA logo being a stylized Orchid. Ben is definately not unstuck in time.

I like the idea that constants being off limits was the rule.

Amused2bHere said...

omgosh, wow o wow

Alex!!! Nadia!!!

I guess that means Danielle is gone too.

Really stinks for my fantasy team. All three of them were mine. wah!

As for the "rules" that Widmore changed...what if it's as simple as "no innocents" are to be harmed. That would explain why the "lists" of people to be taken, and why Michael got the "not yet" flag on the bomb. Alex was an "innocent", and yet she got harmed.

Why can't Ben kill Widmore? Hmmm, I agree the Island won't let him, he still has "work to do".

Sayid knows Penny Widmore is Desmond's girlfriend, right? He was on the freighter when Des called Penny, and Minkowski told them that Penelope W was calling...

One last note: Ben calls everyone by their given names, but he refered to Hugo as Hurley in this episode. Significant?

Steve said...

edit: "Ben is definately now unstuck in time."

Capcom said...

Interesting about the constants Kyle. Eye for an eye, constant for a constant.

Melissa_Lossa said...

capcom - yeah, it does look a bit like the Vertigo poster.

Sawyer's been protective of Hurley since Charlie died (I suspect that's why they're roomies). I notice he's started calling him Hugo, as well. I think Sawyer gained some respect for Hurley since Hurley pulled the "voted off the island" con on him. Now that Hurley's best friend is gone, Sawyer's stepping up.

LostIt said...

Kyle said:
What did Sayid do or not do that resulted in Nadia's death? How did he think with his heart and not his gun in relation to her murder?

I was wondering the same thing. There must be more to the story we haven't seen yet.

Steve said...

One last note: Ben calls everyone by their given names, but he refered to Hugo as Hurley in this episode. Significant?

I hadn't caught that one, might be significant, yes.

Capcom said...

Now that you mention it, didn't Ben say soemthing about not killing innocents an episode or so ago Amused?

Lost 2010 said...

kyle - what melissa_loss said plus, I figure Hugo gained some points with Sawyer when he bailed Sawyer and Juliet out with the magic bus.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Did anyone else notice that Widmore had that painting of the Black Rock hanging next to his bed? Obsess much?

LostIt said...

I just looked at the screencaps. the name on Ben's Parka is Halliwax.

Codysmom said...

Melissa_Lossa said...
And Ben looks FREAKED in these shots. Either it's a really rough trip, or things didn't go as they were supposed to (which would explain the parka in the desert).

The scene of Ben "landing" in the desert reminded me of Jack in the very first pilot episode waking from the crash... eyes open, heavy breathing, looks disoriented...
Also, Ben is multi-talented, isn't he? He has some pretty good combat moves, knows other languages, can play the piano.....

Amused2bHere said...

I think his choice to murder the "assassin" and join Ben's war is what Sayid was referring to. He said to Ben that he tricked him into working for Ben by using Sayid's foolish heart-over-gun thinking.

Ben used Sayid's grief over Nadia's death (which i think was orchestrated by Ben, not Widmore) to manipulate Sayid into being his hitman. Once in, he couldn't get out. I think this is the incident that Ben and Sayid were talking about in the vet's office.

Lost 2010 said...

What if Ben and Charles are playing with the whole world like it's a game of RISK? And whoever holds the island holds the key to the whole game. . .or you know, Austrailia depending on how you look at it. . .

Melissa_Lossa said...

lost2010 - good point - I think Sawyer's protectiveness started right then, when he kept Hurley from getting out of the van. And really before that - like Charlie, he tried to be mean to Hurley to keep him safe, away from the danger.

Amused2bHere said...

Capcom: exactly! Ben told Michael that he had to wait to set off the bomb because there were innocents on the boat, and they don't kill innocent people.

Yeah, right.

Capcom said...

Sooooo, concentric circles and a curled orchid (assuming) stem on the logo. Scientists, start you engines! Gonna grab my two Hawking books now. :-) Off the top of my head it only reminds me of the Ptolemaic/Copernican shell model of the solar system, but it's got to be much deeper than that. A black hole theory has a concentric shell diagram. Hmm.

Codysmom said...

amused2bhere said....
Ben used Sayid's grief over Nadia's death (which i think was orchestrated by Ben, not Widmore) to manipulate Sayid into being his hitman. Once in, he couldn't get out. I think this is the incident that Ben and Sayid were talking about in the vet's office.

I totally agree..

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

lost2010: What if Ben and Charles are playing with the whole world like it's a game of RISK?

I completely dig that. That would be a great theory for "the rules." In Risk, you can only launch an attack on a territory if you control a territory that is somehow adjacent.

Once Widmore's "team" attacked a key member of Ben's "team," on an Island that Widmore had no business attacking yet, Ben realized the rules were off and used whatever energy the Orchid possesses to propel himself all over time and space to attack Widmore's interests.

Capcom said...

That's right, thanks Amused. Heh, it was only one ep ago, and I already forgot.

experimentalfilm! said...

.. WHAT IS GOING OONN hahahahha

experimentalfilm! said...

oh and WHEN does this air on abc.com so i can watch it again ! what time !

Lost 2010 said...

What is Ben?

He's the janitor's son.

He's the man who took the island from Widmore.

He appears to have some level of control over space and time.

He appears to be able to summon and direct the actions of a destructive cloud of black smoke.

He's someone who plays by the rules as long as the rules are in play.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Okay, I'll see all of you crazy kids tomorrow. Time to get some sleep!

Lost 2010 said...

kyle - I knew someone would know the rules for Risk. I like the idea even more now.

Capcom said...

Someone over at DarkUFO mentioned that maybe Ben and Widmore are each other's contstants. Hmm.

Lost 2010 said...

Oh, it is getting late isn't it. It's always fun rehashing with you guys! G'night.

Amused2bHere said...

Anyone else think one of the 3 randos behind Sawyer was Steve?

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

Plus, you can only conquer a territory once all the armies of your opponent on that territory have been defeated. Thus, "every living thing on this island will die."

Amused2bHere said...

But Capcom, wouldn't that mean they had to regularly establish contact with each other?

maybe once Alex died he had to switch to Widmore...nah

Steve said...

Amused2bHere said...

Anyone else think one of the 3 randos behind Sawyer was Steve?


Alright, you caught me. I'll admit it, I was an extra... err, wait, you mean Steve Steve?

Dude, that's Steve, Scott's dead.

Capcom said...

I dunno Amused. Obviously they had contact tonight, heheh. :o) But they only have to talk on the phone, maybe they do that and we just don't know. I don't really buy it, but it struck me as interesting nonetheless.

Steve said...

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

Plus, you can only conquer a territory once all the armies of your opponent on that territory have been defeated. Thus, "every living thing on this island will die."


Also explains the reason behind the Purge.

Capcom said...

FYI, the logo; in Hawking's book the 3-D model of the Einstein-Rosen bridge wormhole has concentric rings on the planes on each side of the wormhole. Just sayin'. :-)

Amused2bHere said...

Bernard rocks!! what other hidden talents does this man possess?

I think Ben's arm injury tells us something about how Marvin Candle got his arm injured. Hmmm....

and there's a definite connection with the polar bear in tunisia and Ben landing in the Sahara. Send the polar bear into the far past to see if it works? Polar bears are big enough to use to see if a human would fit in the device.

Smokey's appearance was SO cool. I loved it! Go Smokey!

Capcom said...

I've never played Risk ever. Thanks for the info, it makes some sense.

Amused2bHere said...

Steve, I'm glad it wasn't You.

But I still think it was Steve.

Amused2bHere said...

off to slumber now, perchance to dream.

Night LoCos!

Capcom said...

I wonder, if losing an arm is a problem in this teleporting contraption, why they don't wear some kind of protective apparel???

Capcom said...

Yes, goodnight sweet Locos, may flights of angels, etc. :o)

Steve said...

It's called Splinching. ^_^;;

Capcom said...

Dream about this from Hawking: "Can a bullet fired through a wormhole into an earlier time affect the one who fires it?" Kind of apropos to this ep.

OK, 'nuff about wormholes. |-)

P.S. Maybe Ben was the person who took the vid of Widmore beating up the guy?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Two things it looked like there was a cloud of cold air around Ben when he landed in the desert.
And why was he so dirty and "black" when he came out of his room?
How close of contact does he have with smokey to have to use it?

Sayid'sgirl said...

capcom
I'm digging worm holes. Have been ever since I seen the Orchid video.

Well I'm getting tired. Night All.

Steve said...

why was he so dirty and "black" when he came out of his room?

I would imagine the dirt was from the passage he had to follow to get to Smokey's controls.

I haven't rewatched it yet, but it seemed to me that it was a natural cave that butted into his secured room... it's probably a tunnel to another Station where Smokey is controlled. The blast door map does show a network of tunnels after all.

Codysmom said...

Wow again! Just finished re-watching the episode and I think it's the best ever.. and if Michael Emerson doesn't win something for his performance, well then somebody must have changed the rules:)

Speaking of which, I think Widmore changed the rules when he killed Alex, an innocent. And, I think Ben decides right then and there that he will use the new rules and have Nadia killed to recruit Sayid in the war.

I especially loved the last scene with Ben and Widmore...

Maven, sorry I can't stay up any longer. Hopefully, I'll be able to be online a bit tomorrow!

Steve said...

I think it's the best ever..

Agreed.

Codysmom said...

Oh, and one more thing.... was that a light saber in Ben's hand:)?

Steve said...

lol... I think it was an extendable nightstick.

maven said...

I just finished. WOW...another winner episode! Sooo much exposition. Going to catch-up...

maven said...

I'm back (while all the rest of you have said good-night)! Reading through all the posts so far, you guys have hit on a lot of things I noticed during the episode:

1. Re Halliwax on parka: First of all why was he wearing a parka is he was coming from the island? And I like how some of you said Ben's wound on his arm could be similar to Candle's fake arm. The Halliwax name surely ties in with the Orchid video. Ben travels through space and time, and he doesn't seem to have much control of where he's going. Although he does seem to be prepared for anything.

2. Dan pulls a McGyver to fix the Sat phone! LOL Something funny is definitely happening with a jump in time re the ship's doctor showing up dead on the island with a cut throat, but still on the freighter?

3. We finally get a date. I heard Oct 21, 2005. Ben still seems a little confused about the timeline. He's using his fake passport with Dean Moriarity.

4. Can't believe they killed Alex! Everyone is dropping like flies.

5. Ben in Tikrit, Iraq: Isn't it kind of dangerous for a white American to be walking around the streets of Iraq? Ben sure has a fancy equipment...which brings up the questions again of where he's getting his money?

6. So the Nadia murder is the reason that Sayid works for Ben willingly. Ben makes him think it's his idea. But the Ben smirk...what an actor Michael Emerson is!

7. Ben recites Martin Keamy's resume just like he did with Charlotte.

8. Playing the game of Risk: That line that "Australia is the key to the whole game" seems to be very important. By Ben saying "they changed the rules of the game", does seem like this is a game between Widmore and Ben. Was there a Geneva Convention for this war?

9. The Smokie stuff was so awesome. So Ben goes into a secret tunnel to control Smokie.

10. Interesting that Hurley is the only one that can find Jacob's cabin, but Ben takes the torch from Locke and tells them which way to go.

11. Sawyer seems to be taking a protective role over his little family: Saving Claire, trying to protect Hugo "You harm one hair on his curly head..."

12. The last scene with Widmore was so great. Widmore definitely talked down to Ben, calling him "boy" at one point. He comments on Ben's "horrible eyes". It seems Widmore lost control of the island to Ben..."That island's mine, always was and will be again."

13. So this has gotten personal now with the killing of Alex. Would Ben really kill Penelope?

That's it for now. Will rewatch again tomorrow. All your comments and points are great guys! LOST is back with a vengence!

memphish said...

Morning LoCos!

Hope you all figured everything out last night while you were sleeping. :D

I like the idea that Ben's arm injury is related to Candle's arm loss. Good one.

Be sure and check out Ben's door to Smokey or whatever it was that let him call Smokey. It's covered in hieroglyphics which makes me wonder if the chamber or Smokey himself predates the Dharma Initiative. Or was DI just fond of Egyptian things?

I also don't think one of the randos killed was Steve. The two actors don't look like he did in S1, which is not to say that Darlton couldn't just proclaim him dead like they did with The Sheriff.

I've never watched CSI, but I'd guess those that do would find that actor looking dead on the beach ironic.

More later!

Sayid'sgirl said...

maven
I really tried to stay up to read your post but just couldn't make it. Sometimes I can stay up late sometimes I get tired early.

2. Dan pulls a McGyver to fix the Sat phone! LOL Something funny is definitely happening with a jump in time re the ship's doctor showing up dead on the island with a cut throat, but still on the freighter?

I know Dan' a mini Sayid I guess. lol I can't beleive he didn't realize Bernard knew morse code. It was his idea to use it. And there is definitley something time trippy going on between the boat and the island and Dan seems concered about it.

3. We finally get a date. I heard Oct 21, 2005. Ben still seems a little confused about the timeline. He's using his fake passport with Dean Moriarity.

The closed captioning said 24 (but that could be wrong) I kind of felt he was prepared for 2 horsemen riding up and he was trying to quickly think of a way out of it with no place to hide.
Also I said this last night but to me when he was laying on the ground it looked like a cloud of cold air was briefly around him as if he came from some place cold or the traveling is cold.

4. Can't believe they killed Alex! Everyone is dropping like flies.

I know I didn't see that coming at all!

5. Ben in Tikrit, Iraq: Isn't it kind of dangerous for a white American to be walking around the streets of Iraq? Ben sure has a fancy equipment...which brings up the questions again of where he's getting his money?

I think Ben and Widmore have been playing this game for years. And Ben has gotten some of not all of his money from Widmore. Widmore did say everythng Ben had he got from him.

7. Ben recites Martin Keamy's resume just like he did with Charlotte.

I know the first thing I thought was Ben and his lists.

10. Interesting that Hurley is the only one that can find Jacob's cabin, but Ben takes the torch from Locke and tells them which way to go.

Yeah I thought that was odd too.

13. So this has gotten personal now with the killing of Alex. Would Ben really kill Penelope?

Yeah, I think he will try if he finds her. Hopefully Desmond will be still alive and be able to stop him.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I really need to proof read before I post.

It should say wasn't prepared for 2 horsemen.

And Ben has gotten some ifnot all of his money from Widmore.

bigdog said...

good morning all.

What a great content filled episode.

the scene were Keamy's crew kills the 3 red shirts was funny to me. sawyer tells each of them to stay back and yet each walks out to a perfect shot. then sawyer uses a picinic table for cover. But i dont understand why sawyer would not want to stay with ben and locke since so far everything ben has said about the freighter people has been true.

the role of Ben is being played excellently by mr. emerson.

staying spoiler free for 5 weeks was hard but so rewarding.

I wonder what it said next to moriaty name in the sign in book at the hotel. the woman looked like she was afraid.

Ange said...

Morning LoCos...I'm about to go rewatch, but I did just read all of the comments from last night and this morning. I hate the later time slot, just saying. Anyway thanks to Memphish I do have e-mail comments and it's the best thing ever for catching up. Yay Memphish.

Thoughts were brilliant form everyone. I especially liked speculation about Ben's arm being a time marker for later on and/or somehow related to the travel or how Marvin Candle got an injury.

I woke-up today thinking about Smokey, I don't know if it's because I just finished reading VALIS, but in it there is a pot with descriptions of similar hieroglyphics. Mainly there was the old Christian fish symbol. I do think I see that standing on end in the pictures of the Smokey Door.

So if Smokey is the "Cerebus System" from the blast door map, and it uses CV Vents a cave to get to it makes sense.
I do think it looked like it was traveling with purpose, and I did also notice lots of sparks or electricity, like it was creating energy or static, or even using a rail system like a subway?

bigbod said...I wonder what it said next to moriaty name in the sign in book at the hotel. the woman looked like she was afraid.
Good call, I totally forgot about that until you said so. I think it for sure indicates that he has been there a lot, and that he has certainly made a name for himself, like the dude that drops from the sky, or the man that you don't want to mess with?
Either that or the room is held by The Widmore Corp. and they know he's a dangerous man.

That's it for now, going to get coffee and re-watch before I have to do actually non-Lost things :D.

bigdog said...

ange there are non lost related things?? - who knew. thats the only positive for me of the late thursday slot. my friday morning work load is always light giving me the chance to catch up on the comments.

Lost 2010 said...

Do you suppose it's going to end up being significant that Sayid has seen a picture of Penelope in association with Desmond? If Ben sends Sayid to kill Penelope, I'm thinking when he sees her, he'll balk.

memphish said...

I agree Lost2010 that Sayid would hesitate to kill Penny because he knows about her from Desmond. She'd be collateral damage like Nadia herself. I think Ben will have to be the one to take her out. Hey, what if Penny is The Economist?

memphish said...

One thing really sticks out to me is that Ben sending Frenchie and the kids to the Temple was the biggest mistake I think we've seen Ben make. If they hadn't left Othersville they might still be alive.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Thanks for the info about Ben's door, memphish - I noticed the images last night, and then forgot about them. Dark UFO also has a link to a wiki page with possible translations - the two male figures seem to mean something like "to call a servant." Or maybe not - I'm not really up on my hieroglyphics.

Melissa_Lossa said...

Oh, and if you're interested, the second half of Jimmy Kimmel's interview with Carlton and Damon is now Spoiler Fixed

Ange said...

Good point Memphish about Ben's error in sending Alex away.

I really think that Ben believed that no matter where they went she would not be hurt per the Widmore agreement. I think the sending them away part was to get rid of Karl, I just feel like Ben somehow set that up knowing Alex was not supposed to be harmed but the other two were fair game.

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

Two more thoughts:

1) Just when we finally see that Ben wasn't lying about harm coming with the freighter, and we see some normal human emotion coming from him (re: Alex), his interests are pitted directly against the one person for whom every LOST fan has an affinity: Desmond.

2) The thing about Risk is that, in every game I've played, the player who gets to place armies on the map first almost always chooses Australia first. First of all, you get a bonus card draw if you control an entire continent (and Aus. is the smallest and thus easiest to control). Second, there's only one connection from Asia to Australia. It's a bottleneck that can serve as the last fortress of a battered and retreating army.

Totally fascinating. I'm kinda surprised, in retrospect, that it took this long for TPTB to address the Risk similarities.

Ange said...

Okay re-watching now and I'm thinking about Ben's arm again. Could the injury come from some machine you need to strap yourself into to jump or whatever it is he is doing?

That would make sense with the earlier comment about the injury being reminiscent of Marvin Candle's arm.

Also, the jumping thing making doubles has been speculation for a while, but if Ben is doing it, then that would mean there is more than one Ben hanging around (ie. all the Marvin Candles and the Bunny #15)?

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

Ben didn't come out of the secret room with an injured arm. I think his arrival in Africa will be precipitated by events that we have not yet seen.

I wouldn't be shocked if that was his "escape" from the Island altogether. The bit about the Elizabeth could have been intended to cover up the powers of the Island to Sayid.

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

Oh, and the other thing I thought as soon as Alex got shot was "the Island-bound characters are all getting whacked. Season 5 will take place primarily off-Island." None of the characters that have been killed recently have any connection to the outside world. The ones that are surviving, do.

Capcom said...

Morning groggy LoCos! I've got a hangover from thinking so much.

Some Qs:

1) I wonder why Ben didn't pull out the stops (Smokey) against the mercs until now? Why would using Smokey be cheating the rules I wonder?

2) Did Sawyer call someone Frenchie when he said he was going to get Claire out of the house?

3) I wonder why Dan is still being so coy to the Losties about the time thing, what's the big deal now?

4) What's a "rando"?

5) I wonder if October 24 is significant to anything?

OK, formulating more questions for you, my Lost genius friends, for later. I couldn't watch this show without you! Seriously.

Capcom said...

Whoops, another Q: If "The rules" are to avoid killing family, I wonder why Ben said that Alex was not family to him and meant nothing? Didn't he kind of set himself up for her getting killed by doing that? Even if Keamy was told not to kill Ben's family, or innocents which Alex was, there goes Ben's protection for Alex. Just sayin'.

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

Doc Jensen includes some 10/24 connections in his recap. Pretty interesting.

As for "Frenchie," yes, Sawyer was referring to Rousseau and Alex. That's when Ben said he sent them off, but wouldn't answer when Sawyer asked where.

And I think Dan is just extremely socially awkward.

Capcom said...

Thanks Kyle, I didn't get that far in Doc's article yet. :-)

Oh, OK, thanks for the Frenchie info, now I get it.

I guess you could be right about Dan. But I get the feeling that TPTB want us to think that he would be more forthcoming if Charlotte wasn't around to glare holes into the back of his head everytime he gets close to telling the truth. I guess my question should be, why does Charlotte care anymore at this point. If her fellow crewmates are ending up dead.....

maven said...

I actually got up extra early (for
me) to get caught up here! What a fabulous episode...so much info and, of course, more questions.

Ange said: I think the sending them away part was to get rid of Karl, I just feel like Ben somehow set that up knowing Alex was not supposed to be harmed but the other two were fair game.
Yes...the rules of the game changed, and now it's personal.

I'm a little confused about that door that Ben used to get Smokie. He entered it through his secret room. But isn't his house just a free-standing Otherton house? Where is that tunnel? Did he go down some stairs?

Also, did Ben actually summon Smokie? Remember, the sonic fence was shut off, and maybe Ben just knew Smokie would be coming.

Why would there be a Dharka on the island? It's never cold there. LOL Where was Ben before he landed in Africa? Is there another Dharma station off island?

In the screen shot of the dead ship's doctor, besides the slash on his throat there's a laceration on his check that seems to have been stitched up.

Off to read Doc Jensen...

Kyle/TheBookPolice said...

Here's a book to add to the potential reading list: The Ugly Little Boy, by Isaac Asimov.

And for television watching, check out The X-Files' Season 4 episode "Synchrony."

Capcom said...

HI Maven! Glad tht you got up early to talk! :-D

Maybe his house was built around some kind of ancient structure, and the stiars down were after the hieroglyph door?

If the Orchid apparatus that they use is not where the cold is (i.e., within some kind of cryo super-cooled chamber), I'd bet the DI has accouterments for any kind of outing, if they can travel from the island to anywhere or anytime.

Heh, I noticed the Doc's stitches too. I was thinking about how he looked like a sugar-cookie (see Navy SEALs BUDS training) and then noticed the stitches underneath the sand on his face. Weird.

Lost 2010 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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