Tuesday, June 26, 2007

The Lost Community Book Club - WATERSHIP DOWN


Welcome to the first official/virtual meeting of The Lost Community Book Club! In case you hadn't heard, we meet right here on the last Wednesday of each month to discuss a different book associated with Lost mythology. This month's book is Watership Down by Richard Adams.

To help launch our Book Club with a bang, podcast hosts David A Dein and Steve "The Goog" Guglich have done it again and put together an awesome live program. This time they've enlisted the help our book club mastermind Melissa_Lossa and others in the community to get the conversations rolling. To join in the discussion, send an e-mail to TLCPodcast@gmail.com or call 732-564-4763.

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To listen to it streaming, visit TLC TalkShoe page.

Next Book - July 18th

Next month's book is A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle. For a complete list of books, and to find out more about how you can get involved in the TLC Book Club, click HERE and/or HERE.

105 comments:

Dennis said...

Here, Here! Let the FIRST! official TLC Book Club meeting come to order!

2costa said...

heres something i never thought of. The way jack flys every weekend in hopes of crashing on the island again, show that in the future the island is still protected from air flight. So like i said before just because they stopped jamming the signal doesnt mean that they turned of the magnetic anomaly that made naomis helicopter crash. So far the only vessels to make it to the island in one piece are the low tech ones like desmonds sailboat. So in order for Naomis ship to be able to come there ist has to be outfitted with some kind of magnetic equipment like the helgus antonius...

Ange said...

Good morning-ish. I'm going to listen to the podcast in it's entirety now. I was wondering if Melissa_Lossa could post the list of questions she had, or if maybe Dennis et al could include them on the front page for discussion?

maven said...

Good morning (still morning here in LA!)

Good suggestion, Ange. The list of discussion topics would work great here on the blog and will get the ball rolling.

Ange said...

Hi Maven and whoever else is present: Just listening to your thoughts while I melt outside. I have to say that I agree with Fiver being a Desmond...although in the book there are other rabbits (Hyzenthlay and Fiver's offspring) that have "visions" as well. I think that is significant in that there has been speculation on Lost that perhaps Desmond is not the only one seeing glimpses of the future.

PS: I am going to attempt pillows today Maven, as I finally got my new sewing maching up and running!

maven said...

Good for you (finally), Ange!

Well, if was brought up in the podcast that Fiver could also be like Locke (or vice versa). Fiver's visions so seem like he's at one with his environment just like Locke "feels" the island. And Locke has had his visions, too (the airport dream). Fiver could relate to both Desmond and Locke.

blueheron13 said...

Hello.

Haven't listened to the podcast yet, but I see you folks are talking about Fiver. Since he see flashes of the future, I can see why there are comparisons to Desmond and Locke. However, the essence of Fiver's character is a little different, I think.

After his visions, Fiver quickly tries to explain--as best be can--what he experienced, so that he can help the group. In the beginning (at Sandleford Warren), some rabbits believe in him and some don't; later (at Cowslip's Warren), all the rabbits initially ignore his warnings; but by the end, after he has been proven right over and over again, the rabbits value his words. Also, Fiver gradually takes on more of a leadership role as the story goes by.

Not sure how well any Lost character fits this description.

scoutpost said...

Morning everyone!
Going to try to listen to the podcast first before commenting.

I agree with what you all have said about Fiver. He really could be a bit of both Desmond and Locke. And while Locke and Desmond have not gained the leadership role and respect that Fiver had, we still have 3 more seasons to go- so their characters could still evolve in that direction.

maven said...

Well, ultimately, Charlie grew to trust and respect Desmond's vision...enough to give his life for it.

Ange said...

I think that's one of the huge faults with all of the groups on Lost, no one talks to each other. Desmond hasn't really told anyone that he has future glimpses. Although I tend to think that if he did, like Fiver, there would be a lot of skepticism.

Maven, you said that Locke is reminiscent of Fiver, and I agree with that as well, but I think Fiver, while he has good intentions, does not even pretend to think he understands why he sees things. Where Lock acts smug about it, IMHO.

Kehaar was one of my favorite things about he book. and I was so happy he was brought up in the podcast. I immediately though of Danielle as his Lost counterpart (even the accent), sort of an outsider who reluctantly helps at first, but then grows to like them. Plus "mudders" made me laugh.

maven said...

Ange: Yes, Kehaar is a great character and I can see how Danielle is similar to him (even down to an "accent"). Anyone who helps or aids the Losties could be a Kehaar...like Alex or Karl.

blueheron13 said...

That podcast was fun to hear. All does and no bucks! (except for our esteemed host, of course).

While both Cowslip's warren and Efrafa both invite comparisons to The Others, there is at least one way The Others and Hazel's rabbits are similar: They are both obsessed with reproduction!

Ange said...

Yeah Maven, I liked how that was discussed in the PodCast. If I were going to assign roles I would say Alex is like that little mouse. "You a like a nice grass. E very fine grass" Helpful, but on a lesser level, simply because he wasn't really sure how to help the bunnies...but given a chance, like Alex, could really be useful.

You know, there are just so many parallels with Lost. When Bigwig leads the bunnies into the beans to be safe (p. 43), it reminds me of those funny trees that Juliet and Kate hide in when running from Smokey. Also the decision about who was going to be the warren leader (p. 54) Bigwig or Hazel, reminded me of the sort of unspoken conflict that seems to go on with Sawyer and Jack about that.

Okay that's enough for now. I guess I took a lot of notes :S.

Lisa said...

Mudders.... ah yep... I'm with you Ange, I laughed every time I read that! I also liked reading Beeeg Vig and the Beeg Vater!

I also love the alliance with an "other" so to speak- and wonder, though you guys are talking Fiver, how this might represent...ex. Juliette's recon. questions? I also love the little mouse- again- an alliance and trust.

I second the vote to please post the questions on the blog here. I wish I had more time to listen to the pod casts, but they are one thing I really can't keep up with. Maybe its something I'll try to fit into the summer, but.... it's unfortunately doubtful that I'll have better than spotty luck with that!

My favorite character was Strawberry, for what he represents.... abandonment of an idea that he once embraced, was hurt by by the death of his doe, and his determination to join in and prove himself to the courageous little hessil onto what he hopes is "better"- I think that concept represents in a lot of characters.

Woundward is, however, similar in many ways to Ben, I think there's a lot to be said there. Dunno exactly what or how to hash that out yet... but I really felt that there were some connections! Ok... now that I've potentially hijacked the Fiver discussion... I'll back off and either try to get into the podcast quietly (in public internet cafe, don't think anyone else wants to hear!) or await the hopfully posted discussion questions! I also forgot my notes! Maybe back later, later! ;-)

blueheron13 said...

I think the five discussion questions were something like this:

1. What are the common themes between LOST and Watership Down?

2. With with LOST character do you associate the rabbit Fiver?

3. How do Cowslip's warren and/or Efrafa compare with the Others' society?

4. Is there a similarity between Ben and the mythic folk-hero rabbit (and ultimate trickster) El-ahrairah?

5. Is there any example on LOST that compares with the event in which the doe is relating to some baby rabbits the adventures of Hazel and company, but in the story as she tells it, deeds have been exagerated, details have been changed, and some of Hazel's actions are now attributed to El-ahrairah (and have become mythic/legendary)?

Lisa said...

Thanks for the post of questions! I actually am listening right now (quietly!) So cool to hear real voices!

I see the phone number is a 724#... are you guys talkcasting out of pittsburgh, PA? or am I nuts?

blueheron13 said...

One way in which Efrafa is not like the Other's society:

The Others did not want to be discovered. With the exception of abducting children and/or pregnant mothers, they probably wanted nothing to do with the Losties.

The Efrafans, however, actively searched for nearby rabbits and any that were found were forcibly assimilated into Efrafa (or killed).

Dennis said...

Lisa said... I see the phone number is a 724#... are you guys talkcasting out of pittsburgh, PA? or am I nuts?

The number is in Pittsburg, PA because that's where TalkShoe.com is located.

I believe David A Dein is in New Jersey, and Melissa_Lossa is in Grand Rapids, MI

Lisa said...

Great fun on the podcast! (thanks for the local info, its my hometown area code)

All Excellent points.

Path of the book= from boone to sawyer, to the torture by sayid- the later recurrance of seeing it...all very important IMHO. why that book, why boone and shannon? loads of good questions. remember though, sawyer not only protected his bad guy image...he played the whole scenario ultimately for a kiss from kate before admitting he didn't have the inhaler.

i like all the speculation re: who is Fiver (I kept wanting to call him Fivel, as in an american tale, forgive me if I ever typo!)... I'd propose, given that Kehaar alludes that Fiver has traveled even further than he has, that Walt is a real possiblity...or maybe even Jacob himself... whose warnings went unheeded by Dharma and Dharma's little warren was anniahalted by gas/dynamyte much like Sandleford....

i also love the discussion near the end of the talk cast about who is really the hero? does it come down to altruistic motivations to be a hero? goes back to our discussion last week...

The hutch rabbits...later recruits to the "others"... interesting concept...also the hutch rabbits as our losties re-entering the world after "rescue" might be another good take...having to acclimate to life with very different rules and opportunities...

Kehaar--- I liked the discussion... and all of the ideas... one not mentioned is Juliette... who like karl and alex now have equal knowledge of both groups, makes an alliance, and will stick it out to her job is done... anyway...

Great fun! Thanks!

ChristineT said...

Hello everyone, I have been MIA for awhile, but Just wanted to say hello!

ChristineT said...

I see everyone is talking about Watership down. I havent read that book, or seen the movie in years! I guess I had better do so!

Amused2bHere said...

Howdy all!

Great discussion going on. Lisa I hope you can join in next time on Talkshoe. And I hope we get someof the bucks (guys) to join us as well. (Although it was fun to be all girls plus David.) We missed you guys' input!

As for the Juliet character, I thought at first she could be compared to the does that were rescued from Efrafa, but thinking about it now I think she's more like Blackavar, from Efrafa's Owsla. Juliet has knowledge of the Others protocols and plans, and she can play double agent.

Amused2bHere said...

Hi Christinet! refresh your memory at Wikipedia, listen to the podcast and then jump right in!

memphish said...

A2BH, I think Karl is like Blackavar given the beat down he's taken. I volunteer to give one to Juliet though if she needs to be Blackavar. :)

Melissa_Lossa said...

Hey, guys!

Sorry I was MIA today - we had our annual work picnic out at the beach. :)

Thanks, amused for posting the questions. If anyone is interested, here is the full text of the questions that we discussed:





1) What general themes do Lost and Watership Down have in common?



2) Fiver often leads the other characters in specific directions based on his "visions" – who does he more closely represent, Desmond, with his flashes of the future, or Locke, with his "island intuition"?



3) If we equate Hazel's group of rabbits who eventually settle at Watership Down with the Losties, and take the original warren, Sandleford, as the "real world," then which of the other two warrens that the rabbits encounter best represents the Others: Tharn, the warren of snares where Cowslip lives, and where the rabbits enjoy their lives with the understanding that any one of them could be killed at any time OR Efrafa, the warren led by Wormwort, and where the rabbits live carefully controlled lives and know no other way?



4) Can we equate Ben with El-ahrairah, the trickster?



5) At the end of the story, Hazel listens to one of the does tell the story of their battle with Efrafa. However, the story has been changed to a tale about El-ahrairah and the details are greatly exaggerated ( i.e. El-ahrairah turns into a bird to do battle). Are there examples of this on Lost? (One might be Ben's story that he was born on the island.)


I had so much fun talking to everyone! Thanks for joining in!

Melissa_Lossa said...

Oh, I'm sorry, it was blueheron who posted the questions! Thanks, blueheron!

maven said...

Hey, Christinet! So good to see you here! You can read the synopses of the books and join in. Even David (Passafist) didn't read the book and he co-led the discussion!

Melissa_Lossa said...

amused - nice thoughts on Juliet! I like the comparison between her and Blackavar. They did both try to get away from the community that they were stuck in, and were denied that chance. Interesting. :)

maven said...

Well, Juliet didn't get beat up physically by Ben/Woundwart like Blackavar, but she did get beat up emotionally.

Amused2bHere said...

Don't forget the "mark" they put on Juliet, and how they brought in the rest of the Others to watch (her trial? execution? Cindy didn't say what they were supposed to be watching). They put Jules on display, just like Blackavar, as an example to the rest.

Amused2bHere said...

lol, memphish. down, girl!

Ange said...

amused2bhere said...Don't forget the "mark" they put on Juliet

That just jogged my memory. All of the "groups" in Efrafa were "marked" about their bodies as identifiers and as when to Siflay. I wonder if the others have a variety of marks as well.

Also, I love how you compared Juliet's branding to Blackavar and his poor beat up ears being on display.

memphish said...

You know that's always made me wonder about Juliet's mark though. It's not on display; it's completely hidden. So what is it's purpose? That's why I always thought it wasn't really punishment, but something she'd earned. Of course, I don't trust Juliet as far as she could flip me.

Arguably, Jack is marked too by Achara. And his marking leads to his rough treatment there in Thailand.

The DI folks were marked by their jumpsuits as well. Mathmetician, nurse, work man. And by station as well. The station markings would be very similar to the way the Efrafan were marked.

Of course the original Sandleford warren though without markings had certain roles and hierarchies as well what with the Owsla and all.

Sorry for the ramble. You know what talk of Juliet does to me. :D

Lisa said...

ok. I love the juliette = blackavar comparison! excellent ideas!

2costa said...

i had a thought last night about LOst not watership. SPOILER>>>>>>>>>>>>Not really cause it was a clip taken out of man behind... I read that ben said that they cut out a clip out of man behind the curtain where he said to rousseau"you killed your people and slept in a pit for two years". ROusseau is a firm believer in the virus thats why she killed her science party right. What if Ben or the others did the same thing to rousseau that they tried to do to claire. They convinced her that there was virus and they only had enough vaccine for her baby and she willingly gave them alex. When sayid first met her she said she never met the others but heard whispers, and i think that is not entirely true. The way she gave ben to them when she caught him and said he will lie for a long time seemed to imply she has had run-ins with them before, the way mikhail adressed her when he called her weak i believe, i think she has had more contact with the others than she lets on. It is too coincidental that the others always use the virus con and rousseau beleived it where else would she get the idea. In a sense rousseau is the locke or ben of her group. Thats why she killed her science team cause she didnt want the virus to leave the island, much like locke and ben always make moves to make sure their people cant leave the island. Rousseau gave birth on the island like claire perhaps they offered her vaccine before she gave birth. What is this sleeping in a pit all about, is it the dharma mass grave pit???

capcom said...

Hi LoCos! Great podcast and interesting discussions on the book.

Long time no see Christinet and Blueheron!

I agree with a lot of what you said about Rousseau 2costa. I feel the same way. It seems as if there has been a lot more contact between Rousseau and Ben's group than we have been led to believe. Can't say for sure what exactly yet, but it seems like there is more to learn about the interaction there. Good points also about any similarities between Rousseau's and Claire's experiences.

acewebguy said...

I am rewatching the episodes from the beginning and am up to "Special". Something I noticed; everyone focuses on the polar bear in the comic Walt was looking at, and if he manifested the polar bear with his mind.

But the interesting thing to me was the page before, which the camera actually showed for a longer period of time. It is a picture of a castle-like building sitting on top (in the middle) of a huge glass dome. I am sure someone on here theorized before that maybe the island is a experiment ala 'The Truman Show'. Could this be a visual clue/hint from the TBTP about the island's location? It just seemed weird that they showed that page for a few seconds, as if it may have some significance.

Anyone else notice it?

maven said...

Acewebguy: Could that be the "snow globe" that Desmond referenced in Live Together, Die Alone when he talked about not being able to get off the island?

2Costa: Agree with you that Danielle definitely has had more contact with the Others/Hostiles than she has let on. If anything, she has been observing them all this time.

maven said...

FYI: DarkUFO has an audio of Damon & Carlton being interviewed by Matt Roush for an hour on Cranky Fanatic's Lost podcast (sorry Dave and Steve). It's in the Spoiler section, but it mostly talks about the direction of the show in terms of knowing that there are 48 episodes left. They definitely broke their radio silence! Obviously, they're not giving anything away!

maven said...

FYI Part II: They also talk about the mobisodes.

2costa said...

when are those mobisodes supposed to be available?? thanx for the thoughts capcom and maven

2costa said...

john from cincinatti reminds me of lost a lot too instead of the island the specialness is in the individuals. like the bird coming back to life. The freakiest was when that kai girl was trying to knock boots with john and he said "see god" and she got all siezureish and right at that moment butchy shot up and the heroin was like fire in his veins and kai's peircings were all burning. Then when it was over she said if that is seeing god i dont want anypart of it. I like how the old surfer mith is so egotistical that when he levitated and someone else saw it he was just happy he didnt have brain cancer and was so ho-hum about the levitation

maven said...

2Costa said: when are those mobisodes supposed to be available??
We still don't know. Speculation is around Sept. 07.

2costa said...

:)thanx maven

capcom said...

BTW, I have been waiting for TPTB to revisit that little hint about the dome city ever since it showed up, Acewebguy! I hope that it wasn't just something to throw of off the sent of the real thing.

2costa said...

well capcom i think they have in the way the island seems to have an invisble magnetic dome that can only be crashed threw or gone under(SUBMARINE). I was thinking that going with my thought that low tech crafts can go through like desmonds sail boat, and maybe thats what the sharks are for to patrol the waters around the island. I wonder how the purge went down on alcatraz hydra island, we havwe seen how it went down in the barracks. But somebody would have had to boat or swim over to kill those scientists.

2costa said...

when we saw the dome in the comic, we never knew at that time that you couldnt leave the island thats why mike built the first boat...

Amused2bHere said...

I can't leave this question alone.

ok, so we think we understand why Watership Down was chosen to be used in the show: the whole trek of the survivors to safety and the dangerous Others they meet along the way.

And Sawyer was seen reading it during "Confidence Man" mainly to give Boone a reason to think Sawyer found Boone's bag and had Shannon's asthma medicine, leading us to discover Sayid's, um, special talent for persuasion. It also gave us clues as to what was to come, if we were familiar with the story and were quick enough to put two and two together (and get hrair).

But why did Sawyer go back to the book in "Left Behind"? Did not finish it already? Or does he start multiple books and read them concurrently?

Why would TPTB use Watership Down again, what are they trying to tell us in Left Behind?

memphish said...

A2BH, Here's my take on the appearances of Watership Down. Both episodes are pre-cursors to "Others" interactions.

In "Confidence Man" the torture led to "Solitary" which featured Sayid leaving which led to him finding Danielle and then revealing to the rest of the group the existence of "Others" in "Raised by Another."

Following "Left Behind" we get "One of Us" where Juliet joins the Losties and begins laying the groundwork for the confrontations that occur the rest of Season 3.

The appearance of Watership Down is the calm before the storm of interactions between Losties and Others.

maven said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
maven said...

A2BH: Since "Left Behind" deals a lot with Juliet, Kate and Cassidy (in f/b)...the women in Sawyer's life... maybe Sawyer reading "Watership Down" again has to do with all of his "does"! LOL
Or maybe the library at the beach is very limited...

But seriously, I think that Memphish is on to something. The book might just be an omen of things to come. There were confrontations between Honeycomb and Efrara which echo the confrontations between the Losties and the Others.

memphish said...

Morning LoCos! I hope everyone has a fun 4th of July planned. Holiday Wednesdays are tricky. The only thing that makes them better is when LOST is on. Oh well, only approximately 222 days to go.

Here's today's LOST Question: What do you think Rachel, Juliet's sister, thinks happened to Juliet?

Dennis said...

Happy iPhone Day! Anybody going to get one?


memphish said... Here's today's LOST Question: What do you think Rachel, Juliet's sister, thinks happened to Juliet?

Ben has been sending her fake letters from Juliet that says everything is great, and I am not being held against my will.



Amused2bHere said... But why did Sawyer go back to the book in "Left Behind"? Did not finish it already? Or does he start multiple books and read them concurrently?

He's probably ran out of new books to read, so he is re-reading them. Locke blew up all the books that were in the Swan station.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I was thinking the second time we see the book is to represent a second journey, Juliet's.

But I like what Memphish had to say much better.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Dennis
Yeah love to get one but I can't justify (or afford) 400 to 600 dollars for a phone/ipod/internet.
It would be cool though to have one.

memphish said...

Dennis said: Ben has been sending her fake letters from Juliet that says everything is great, and I am not being held against my will.

So was part of Mikhail's job description the sending of bogus emails to everyone's family? :D Maybe he was the official censor of the Others. He'd redact all "sensitive" information like that being held against my will stuff. That would tie it into a literary reference from the book, Catch 22. Yossarian and the other officers had to take turns censoring mail. To keep it entertaining, Yossarian would redact all articles, every 3rd word, etc. to amuse himself.

maven said...

If any of you LoCos get that iPhone...give us a review! I personally can't justify any use for it myself, but when does that stop me! LOL

Re today's question: Rachel knew that Juliet went to follow her dream of persuing her research freely. I agree with Dennis that Ben (as Juliet) has been sending Rachel information that all is fine and she's never been happier.

Memphish said: Holiday Wednesdays are tricky!
With the 4th in the middle of the week, it just doesn't seem the same! (Although, since I don't work, everyday is a holiday!)

memphish said...

I think Mittelos told Rachel Juliet died. Even if you were finding the cure for cancer you'd stop what you were doing to see the miracle nephew you created especially as close as Juliet and Rachel seemed to be.

2costa said...

i read it might be better to wait for the iphone 1.2 cause if you are not on a wifi hot spot it uses at and t's lame mobile network via cellphone, but the next one is gonna hook up with att's faster cellular connection, i mean all of this for internet. It is only available for at&t.

2costa said...

has anyone ever enhanced what jack ex-wife's man looks like from the one where she divorced him. Also i am next to posative that the guy that infultrated locke's weed commune is the same guy that was trying to mug nadia in manchester. If so it begs the question of what he was doing in the cult, but i was thinking if Locke is meant for bigger things he was there to mess up lockes thing with the weedies so he would be available for the island, cuase if didnt mess up the commune he would have stayed there forever...

2costa said...

its ironic that sawyer seems so boorish,but is one of the most well read people on the island. For a lot of season three it seemed like sawyer was just on alcatraz to get katye to get jack to do the surgery, but i think it was more about getting his seed to impregnate kate and if thats the case it begs the question of why they wanted sawyers of all people. It obvious that ben admires sawyers conning skills, why else go to the lengths of the pacemaker bunny thing if not to impress sawyer. Unlike most charaters i think there are big things in store for sawyer. The smoke doesnt hesitate to take the lives of whoever it wants and sawyer is always in the jungle so there has to be some purpose beyond what we have seen. AS i said at the time richard told locke about sawyers folder not only to discredit ben, but i feel he wanted sawyer to get beyond his vendetta so he could do great things. much as ben ssaid thats why locke had to do it. The way it worked out they got a two for one, cause if locke had killed cooper straight out sawyer never would have gotten his closure
...

memphish said...

2costa, IMO Ben's whole convoluted convince Jack to want to operate on me by kidnapping Jack, Kate and Sawyer plan ranks up there with one of the most lamebrained evil villain schemes of all-time. It's ridiculously complicated and illogical and reminds me of Dr. Evil's plans in the first Austen Powers. We got that exposition from Ben in "Expose" that he finds people emotional vulnerabilites and exploits them saying that that is why he'll take J,K and S, but to me that's just revisionist history. To me J,K and S's time on Falcatraz has been one of the weakest parts of LOST's overall story.

I think that series of episodes suffers from several things. First, they were trying to appeal to their non-core audience of people who think it's more important to know who Kate will choose rather than what's so special about Walt. (Which is not to say that I don't care, but I like how the romances have always played out in the background of the survival story, not in the forefront.) Second, they were trying to do the arc like a mini-series instead of viewing it from a series-long perspective because of the pod scheduling issues. Third, there's a definite feel that they're stretching this story out. 6 episodes in the course of 3 days of Island time. What a waste. And finally, they didn't even execute that well. There was clearly so much left out like what happened to Kate's wrists and what happened at the pot farm.

And thankfully, they got back on track in Not in Portland in large part with the infusion of new flashback blood. Episodes 1-6 felt dumbed down and forced. I enjoyed the rest of the season much, much more.

tall guy said...

I thought I'd try and summarise my thoughts on Lost, now that we're some distance from the season's end, and I've had time to think on it.

It seems from the clues given us, that the strange nature of the Island has much to do with its "geologically unique" makeup as anything else. Some powerful energy underlies the Island. The incident at Swan Station appears to have occurred because Dharma scientists were dumb enough to drill down into the bedrock of the island, releasing so much energy that if the area hadn't been capped, there'd have been a catastrophe of global proportions.

We don't know how such a geology could have been formed, but there's been one hint that the prehistory of the Island involves a volcano. Inert substances can't have a consciousness (you would think), yet computers, although not self-aware (yet), can at least do a good imitation of thinking. Perhaps the Island, way back in the past, achieved consciousness after a volcanic upheaval? A strange combination of powerful magnetic energy, volcanic movement, and the unique qualities of the island's silicon bedrock conspired to create an enormous natural supercomputer out of the island.

Too far-fetched, you say. Well maybe. I don't know whether this is what the writers' have in mind for an explanation, but it's what I would write given the information laid out in the story so far. Perhaps some aspects of this idea will make the show? I'd certainly be pleased if it did,

2costa said...

agreed capcom thats why my mind has to see somthing beyond the surgery thingy, after all Ben sent out his surgeon on several dangerous missions the day he told julliette he had cancer. I have got to think there is more to it than we have seen. The only way my mind can comprehend it is there is stuff about sawyer and kate that we have yet to see. The fact that kate is no longer on the run ties into that. It is no small coincidence that Kelvin was working with Kates step-dad in desert storm, much like people think christain has a part to play I am sure kates dad does too. As i have mentioned before sawyers whole life may be an experiment of what would happen if somebody that was good at heart and intelligent had his parents killed. Maybe sawyers father didnt kill his mother maybe that was how they slipped off to the island, just like i think cheech has something to do with the island. Even cooper being in florida makes no sense wouldnt he still be wanted for throwing john out the window, so if he was living under an alias then how did they find him so quick. That fact had many thinking they took cooper when locke asked for the sub, but they obviously had cooper already probably in the looking glass. I think finally seeing the "temple" that richard and the woman are on route to will be important...

2costa said...

cause the woman that was the sherrif in the julliette tatoo one didnt seem to be part of the part leaving the barracks en route to the temple, so where is she holed up, even just the blast door maps seems to have hatches as of yet not seen by us. Refresh my memory when paulo saw ben and jullitee in the pearl did they come down the ladder or did they just appear?

2costa said...

another mystery is what was the hatch that the tailies hid out in used for, and why did they used to show us those cryptic shots of blast doors in at least three hatches. I think the hatches that are on the blast door map are probably conected to each other by those doors, thats how they could swoop in and get locke desmond and eko out of the swan, and wasnt charlie in the swan when the sky turned purple he had lost his hearing from the dynamite and next thing we know he is on the beach at the start of season 3

2costa said...

if they dont like to go to alkatraz why do they do their reprogramming there(room 23). Where were the degroots in bens flashback are they even real to begin with or just dharma propaganda, and with all the credible spoilers there was one that said we would see mavin candle in the finale and i even read a thing where he was working with the actors from the present day island, i wonder if candle is at the temple?or controlling the smoke

takes a village said...

When I first saw the book cover,I saw the picture of rabbits, and went all Lostie inside.It reminded me of Ben & his rabbits.
I do think He and El-ahrairah are similar."The trickster" was known for his ability to come through for his rabbits by fooling and manipulating,the bad guys.
I like Ben,because he is a master manipulator.He has become almost a folk-hero amongst the Others.However,his people are the ones being tricked; as well as the bad guys(They just don't know it yet.)
I really liked the book.

maven said...

Hi, takes! Very slow here the last few days...I don't know how reading one book a month is going to sustain conversation for each month.

Anyway...it's interesting how El-ahrairah is held in such high esteem by the rabbits. For someone so tricky and manipulative, he's an interesting role model. Of course, this translates over to Ben...even though he's very manipulative and tricky (also a liar), the Others have held him in such high esteem for many years. However, we're beginning to see all that unravel and he is having to deal more and more with outside forces...which is what Woundswort of Efrara dealt with.

2costa said...

thats why i still talk about lost

2costa said...

plus i dont know how to read i post with a voice recognition prgram...:(

memphish said...

I hope we'll get some Jacob stories in the future which will make him more like El-ahrairah. Jacob seems to have similar legend-like qualities when you see the awe Juliet demonstrates when he's mentioned in her OOU flashback.

capcom said...

Hey all, Ange posted some good comments on the book over on the Lost Bullets blog.

Have a good week everyone!

Amused2bHere said...

Just wanted to stop by and say happy weekend!

Ange said...

:O Thanks Capcom!

Dennis said...

Well, I finally listened to the last 3(!) podcasts.

I had a few observation based on some of the comments:

iTunes complaints
You can't take anyone who listens to 4 other podcasts seriously. Even Damon and Carlton scoff at the people who have posted 900 times in the last 90 days. OF COURSE by the time they get around to listening to your podcast, they will have heard some of the same ideas over and over again. If that guy has SO much more knowledge about LOST than you guys, why isn't he doing his own podcast? Yeah...not so easy is it?

However, it would be nice if you could do a bit of post processing to "tighten" the show up a little bit, but I totally understand why you don't because of the whole time factor.


When will we see Walt again?
TBTP have said that we would see Michael and Walt again, so I would think that the next time we see Walt will be in another flash-forward (ie. off the island), where he will be grown up also. That way his size change will make sense - it the future so he has aged. I don't see how he can be on the island any more unless he appears in trees or at the top of cliffs (or Locke keeps falling into pits).


Why didn't the island save the Marshall? Who is healing all these people (Rose, Mikhail, etc)? Is it random?
JACOB! I think that now we know that it was Jacob that instantly healed Locke, because he needed Locke's help. It's not random - remember Jacob's List?


I'm sorry I didn't have time to read the book, but I have a little more free time now, so hopefully I can read the next one (you need at least one guy in the book club :)


Anybody know when the next podcast is?

Passafist said...

Dennis,

I'm a little nervous about this weeks podcast. Steve and I got really silly and didn't have much to say about the episode, so we went off on a lot of tangents. Somehow we filled an hour and we shouldn't have. I'm going to edit it down a lot but of course I'm nervous because of how much grief we get if we get off topic.

But it will be ready Monday morning!! We're also planning a "Live" Talkshoe Podcast Friday at 10:30pm. It's a forum for the whole community to discuss the first four episodes of LOST. (ie. Pilot 01, Pilot 02, Tabula Rasa, and Walkabout).

Sayid'sgirl said...

passafist
The Friday podcast sounds cool. I'll be listening to all the braver in the group joining in.
And don't worry about critics there's alway going to be some. It doesn't mean anything unless you let.

capcom said...

Dennis, great idea about why Jacob healed Locke! And you're right, a 6 foot Walt in realtime 2007 wouldn't have to be explained! If he shows up in island time, can't they somehow CGI him young again? Heck they CGI'd off Lt. Dan's legs in Forest Gump! ((that was amazing!))

Passafist, I kind of like it when you guys go a little off on a tangent. It is usually a related tangent, and besides, don't the writers like Doc Jensen and J.Wood always veer off in their recaps and wax philosophical and whatnot??? I should say so! Of course, I may be one of only a few who like the tangents, but I thought I'd post it anyway. :-)

capcom said...

BTW, OT, did anyone happen to watch the Concert for Diana today? It was very nice.

memphish said...

Good morning LoCos!

Dennis, I agree that I think Locke was on Jacob's list and got the healing, but then what about Sawyer? That man has healed from all kinds of things -- knife wound; gun shot; infection; repeated beatings. Is Sawyer on Jacob's list, but Jack isn't?

I think the Island is merely the Healing Place for certain people and those people on this Island include Locke, Rose, Sawyer, Michael (check out his leg in Walkabout vs. White Rabbit), Naomi, Mikhail, and whoever else we've seen healed, but it's not the Healing Place for the Marshal, Boone, Shannon, Ana Lucia, Libby, Colleen, Ethan and all the others who have died. I also think there has to be some difference in the degree of the injury, but to heal paralyzed legs, but not some internal bleeding seems a bit arbitrary.

memphish said...

And here's my LOST QOTD in preparation for the Walkabout podcast. Locke tells Randy that on a walkabout you become inseparable from the earth. Does this explain Locke's obsession with preventing everyone from leaving?

Side note about Walkabout - this is one of my all-time favorite episodes. It was the one that secured my LOST fanatic status. But in rewatching it, there's not many unanswered questions left from it. In large part it was one of those transitional episodes that we often like to gripe about moving the survivors from one mode of thinking/place to the next for a new story arc. It's funny how we rethink episodes the more we know.

memphish said...

Interesting story about the Emmy process. I think the nominations come out mid-July.

2costa said...

im not sure i agree with you guys that you need to be on jacobs list to be healed. I am not convinced that ben can talk or communicate with jacob so if that is true jacobs list is really ben's list, which would make it less likely that youd have to be on bens list to be saved. The way that in most of jacks flashbacks like thailand or the flash foward that jack is an alchaholic and pill popper off the island and the island heals this in jack. I thought it was intersting to look back at the episodes where jack makes sawyer give him all the pills or the heroin, if you look at it from the perspective of the flash foward is jack playing with fire. If they were to show jack popping pills on the island then i would stand corrected

2costa said...

remember how jack was always demanding drinks on the plane on the original flight 815 and the golden tickets flights...that was part of my theory for why jack got so bad in the flash foward because he no longer had the island to keep his vices in check. Since they have said they havent cast jacob yet, but emerson said they have, i am not convinced that what locke saw in the cabin was the real jacob either...

2costa said...

even is the island healed some of those other people like we saw with razzle and dazzle they bury them so fast on the island that the regeneration of the island may be thwarted if you get buried alive so to speak. The island can heal you cbody, but it cant allow you to breath sand, so if you are buried before you have achance to heal you are screwed...

2costa said...

i dont mean the island healed razzle and dazzle i know it was a temporary spider condition, but the point is the same if you get buried alive even the island couldnt save you. Perhaps thats why the dharma people were put in an uncovered mass grave cause they welcomed anyone that could come back to life out of the pit. I think Richard may not be around to long on the island, i saw a preview of a new series on cbs called Cane starring jimmy smits and the actor who plays richard seems to have a big role on the show, but if it doesnt stay on the air who knows

2costa said...

inthailand all Jack did was sit on the beach and drink all day

memphish said...

And he drank Coke 2costa. :)

Melissa_Lossa said...

Hey all -

Work is is REALLY not nice word right now, so I apologize that I haven't been around much. Reading back, I noticed folks were talking about the episodes in which Watership appeared, and what they might foreshadow. Here's my take:

Shortly after Sawyer reads Watership the first time (or reads the first part, I'm not sure) we meet Danielle - who is much like the rabbits in the first warren, Tharn. She keeps her head down and doesn't worry about what others are doing. Sure, she kidnaps Sayid, but she lets him go, and admits that she doesn't see the Others roaming around the island.

Shortly after Sawyer reads the book again (or reads the second part), we get a glimpse into the workings of the Others, a less forgiving society much like the Efrafa warren.

Just a thought. :)

Melissa_Lossa said...

And as far as podcasts go - David and Steve, don't let the naysayers get you down! I love the podcasts, and I don't mind at all when you go off and tangents. I find them very funny. :)

David, you were such a sweetheart on the book club podcast! I couldn't have done it without your help. Don't listen to anyone who criticizes your techniques!

2costa said...

maybe rum and coke or jack and coke

2costa said...

i never eally thought about it before, but who is to say that naomi is dead. She did show the whole wolverine healing factor after mikhail helped her, was that cause mikhail did the helping. If he could be all could after getting shot with a harpoon and goiing through the sonic fence then lockes kniife in the back shouldnt faze naomi.

2costa said...

all good=all could

capcom said...

Heh, Wolverine healing, I like that 2costa!! You're right, we don't know for sure that she's dead yet. Patchy's blood squirted out of his ears, and he came back. Naomi cough up blood, but she could come back too if TPTB make it so.

Maybe Dhamra, Mittelos, or Widmore/Paik has bulit some supersoldiers?!

picsel said...

Hey guys like i said a few weeks ago i havent been on due to my exams, and im going to spain for 2 weeks tomorrow, So you guys aare going to have to fill me in on everything when i get back. And there best be a new TLE starting when i do :p Have a good two weeks everybody

picsel said...

Umm Dennis said "Now we know that it was Jacob who instantly healed Locke"

how do we know this? ahh 3 weeks ive been gone to concentrate on other things, and we know that?

2costa said...

we dont know that picsel. I agree with you and so did locke, after he saw jacob he wasn't impressed. AS far as i know the only one that helped locke out of the dharma pit was walt not jake...

2costa said...

did you guys ever hear the theory that the lady and kid that jack saved in the flash foward were rachel and her son, julliettes nephew???ovbiously aged by three years

Amused2bHere said...

I hope everyone has a safe and happy Fourth of July!

oh, and 100th!

memphish said...

2costa, I heard that about Juliet's sister and nephew, but it's just speculation at this point. We didn't get a good look at the woman, and the boy could be the right age I suppose. And neither had a line, so there's no credit in IMDB either in the episode credits or for the actress who played Rachel in the other 2 episodes.

So would Rachel be an "unusual" enough mom to be driving her young son around at 2 a.m.? That's one of the those things that bugs me. What mom is driving her son under 10 year old son around at 2 am? I guess he could have had to come home from a sleepover.

memphish said...

I've got 2 questions today because they are related and because tomorrows the Fourth. First, what is the Christian Shephard that appears to Jack on Island? Smokey? Something else? And second, where is Christian Shephard's body?

Dennis said...

picsel said... Umm Dennis said "Now we know that it was Jacob who instantly healed Locke" how do we know this? ahh 3 weeks ive been gone to concentrate on other things, and we know that?

Did you catch podcast 30 yet? that's what my comments were regarding. You left off the the most important part of my quote:

I THINK THAT now we know that it was Jacob that instantly healed Locke...

I guess it should have been...

I THINK THAT it was Jacob that instantly healed Locke...

I think the island is a healing place, but not an instantly healing place. I think Jacob has something to do with that.


2costa said... we dont know that picsel. I agree with you and so did locke, after he saw jacob he wasn't impressed.

What are you basing this on? It's not like he met Jacob and didn't like him. Locke didn't believe that Jacob even existed ... even after he maybe saw him and definitely heard him. It thought it was Ben tricking him. Then Ben shoots him to find out what Jacob says, he had to realize that Jacob was real. Ben says "I hope Jacob helps you", which I believe he did - in the form of Walt. You don't think Walt was actually there?

Dennis said...


NEW POST!!!!

TheBookPolice said...

I haven't finished the book yet (slow reader; for being a librarian there isn't that much time to read!), but I'm loving it. It's a great way to keep the LOST lobes in my brain from atrophying.

I like how there was a strange, dangerous group of rabbits, and then another group was found that made the bad parts of the first group seem almost silly in comparison. That sounds like the respective discoveries by the Losties of first DHARMA, then the Others.

I like Kehaar=Danielle. I personally feel like the best LOST relationship to mirror Hazel and Fiver is Locke and Charlie.

I'll have more to say when I finish, but by then people will be talking about Wrinkle, which I don't think I'll be reading.