Monday, April 09, 2007

The Lost Community Podcast - Episode 19

In this episode, join hosts David A Dein and Steve "The Goog" Guglich as they unpack the episode "Left Behind." Get ready to hurl bricks because David won't stop playing that Larry Norman song. Revel in the mystery and confusion as Steve and David attempt to explain "the rapture" and finally attempt to get jobs in the movie business. Join in on the fun by sending your e-mails and MP3 comments to TLCpodcast@gmail.com or call our listener line at 732-564-4763.

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The music was provided by Just Passing Through. Find out more at justpassingthru.net or myspace.com/justpassingthru

193 comments:

Codysmom said...

first?

ib4uc said...

Thanks for the new thread. One question -- did Smokey "flash" Locke also? If so, maybe we're onto something. First encounter, it reads your life story. Second encounter, if it deems your past is bad, watch out!

memphish said...

It's hard to say what happened with Smokey and Locke back in Walkabout. I think the real story is TPTB didn't quite know then either. It's possible that Locke's white light = the flashes, but I don't know what makes that beautiful.

I also don't understand why the Monster would manifest Yemi before turning into the fist on Eko, but didn't seem to do that for Locke. How Smokey dealt with the pilot from The Pilot has never seemed to jive with the rest of the info. we have. And I don't know what to make of the Monster noises with Nikki and Paolo either.

Boy, I don't know much.

Codysmom said...

It took a long time to catch up from over the weekend, but I really like:

dennis' own Lost & Found, great stuff! ABC could hire you if they need help with their Lost website:)

Tall Guy said...
I have a strong feeling that Juliet is indeed a plant, and that her task is to get access both to Arron, and Sun's, as yet unborn child.

I like this idea, tall guy. I wonder if Kate is pregnant, too? Juliet (the fertility dr) had time to make sure Kate was "ready" for her trist with Sawyer at Alcatraz. Juliet will be allowed to stay with the losties because she'll serve the purpose of being their OB-GYN, even if they are leary of her.

As far as Smokey goes, I still like the idea that it was a Dharma experiment gone bad (hence, "the incident"). The fact that Juliet pushes some of the same numbers on the sonic fence as the Swan hatch numbers, tells us that at least the fence was built by Dharma.

I suppose Smokey could also be something original with the island that Dharma tried to harness or exploit.

Off to listen to the podcast!

Melissa_Lossa said...

Here's a question - how secure is that fence if the code is the Dharma numbers? I mean, that's like using "password" as your password.

Codysmom said...

melissa, I don't think all the numbers were used, just 15 16 23, so you'd have to know at least that.

Melissa_Lossa said...

codysmom - good point, but still. :)

If you could figure out how many digits there were in the code, it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to figure out.

Although, I guess before the Losties, who would they have had to hide the code from?

Codysmom said...

I think the fence was built specifically to keep smokey out. The bonus of people getting caught in the fence wasn't needed til later (purge).

Sayid'sgirl said...

codysmom said:
I suppose Smokey could also be something original with the island that Dharma tried to harness or exploit.

I like that idea I've thought of that myself.

TLC said...

The code on the Fence was 1-6-2-3. Hope that helps.

memphish said...

There's a documentary on PBS tonight about Jonestown.

memphish said...

Goog needs to post his birthday.

Codysmom said...

TLC said...
The code on the Fence was 1-6-2-3. Hope that helps.

You're right that those are the numbers they allow us to see that she pushes, but I think she pushes a few before that. I hear 2 or 3 clicks when they are showing us Juliet's face before we see her hands.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=93232&fullsize=1

There are also 4 plain buttons above the numbered ones that she could have pushed, also.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=93220&fullsize=1


I should have said 1-6-2-3 are the last four numbers she pushes and we're not sure about the rest.

Steve said...

Post my birthday?

memphish said...

Dennis is compiling a TLC birthday list so we can wish each other Happy Birthdays. JGZ350s is tomorrow. Maven's was last Friday. What day is yours Steve?

maven said...

Morning all...listening to the podcast. Can't believe my little ole birthday started this list! Is it like Jacob's list or Heroes list? LOL

memphish said...

Maven, hopefully this list is better. I'm not sure I want to be on either of those 2 lists.

experimentalfilm! said...

smokey in the 23rd psalm - when doing his little flashy thing - showed pictures of eko's past . that was probably what it was doing to juliet .. and when locke saw the flashes, maybe he thought they were beautiful because he saw helen (an object of the past) in them ? just a thought .

Fenris said...

In the previous thread Memphis said -

"I just rewatched the Smokey scene in The 23rd Psalm to confirm this. When Smokey confront Eko we watch from behind Smokey. There are 4 flashes like a flash bulb, just like there were when we saw the Smokey and Juliet. They just look brighter and more ominous because it's night, she's wet, and we're closer to her face.

While I think it's important to remember Juliet's mark, I don't think that was what Smokey was responding to because we have no reason to believe Eko or Locke are also marked.
"

Remember that Eko was meant to be taken from the Tailies by the Others, but being the tough guy he is, he managed to avoid that. So I think it is safe to assume that Julliet, Locke and Eko were all on "The List". Which would explain their special treatment.

But that is interesting as well. Eko had a kind of Judgement from the black smoke. Taking this back to what we know from the Lost Experience. Could it be that those on the list have this specific Gene that puts them in the 30% bracket that Mittlewerk believed needed to be eliminated to achieve a change in the calculation.

That actually makes a lot of sense. That could be exactly the reason for the "Purge" and for it's failure. Perhaps the break up between the loyal DI's and the Others were down to one simple thing they found out, i.e. that you can achieve the same result by wiping out either side of that 30% mark. That is why the others see themselves as the chosen few.

As for Smokey, if he was indeed created by Dharma, perhaps he was created to specifically kill those in the 30% group.

Fenris said...

My Birthday is June the 8th btw, apparently the same day as Speakers (though dunno what year he was born, 1976 for me).

experimentalfilm! said...

can we assume that those taken by the others and those attempted to be taken by smokey can both be on the list ?

Ange said...

experimantalfilm(exclamation point)said...can we assume that those taken by the others and those attempted to be taken by smokey can both be on the list ?

I am not sure we have seen enough personal interactions between Smokey and anyone to decide that. We have seen Smokey interact with Locke (which almost ended in him being dragged off), we have seen it with Eko (we know how that ended), with the pilot, and with Juliet and Kate. When else have we seen Smokey (the actual smoke) interact with anyone, who am I missing?

memphish said...

I don't think Eko was on "the" list. Here's what Goodwin tells Ana before his death in The Other 48 Days. That first night they took the strongest of us... our quiet friend... 3 other guys. They're all athletic, tough, threats. I think they were just trying to get the threats out of the way so that later they could take those on the list. I don't know how you rule them out that fast. Maybe you put them in bear cages until you make the determination, but it arguably makes it easier to take the 9 additional people 11 days later.

maven said...

Ange: You triggered a thought for me. Even from the first when we heard Smokey going through the jungle and scaring the Losties, it never approached them. From what we've seen, he does seem to be very selective...singling out certain people and "scanning them". He then either gives them a pass or takes them (like Eko). When Smokey flashed the bright lights on Juliette, I think he was processing some info on her and then came back later to try and get her

Thrasher76 said...

Hey gang!! I have to ask a special favor from all of you.

My family and I need your thoughts and prayers during a difficult time. The FBI Agent killed last Thursday was my uncle. I/we greatly appreciate it.

And my B-day is January 18th.

memphish said...

Thrasher, I'm very sorry to hear that. Prayers going up now.

Ange said...

Agreed Maven, I said in the earlier thread, I think it is scanning, taking time to process *something* and then comes back when a judgment is reached? Not sure what-all it is processing yet, but maybe Fenris is on to something with the 30% gene thing. That to me is tangible at least, unlike the concept of good or bad (one man's good is not necessarily the same for another).

Fenris, like the new blogger page you made with the bullet points (literally...lol). Very organized!

Sorry to hear your news Thrasher, I will be thinking of you.

maven said...

OMG, Thrasher! So sorry to hear that news. My thoughts and sympathy is with you and your family.

Thrasher76 said...

Thanks gang! I will b emissing Lost this week do to family stuff, but I am DVR-ing it, is that a word?, anyway, I will be sure to catch up over the weekend. Glad to see Ange Fenris again!!

Fenris said...

Sorry to hear about your loss Thrasher. :( My heart goes out to you and your family.

capcom said...

So sorry to hear about your uncle Thrasher! You and your family are in our prayers.

"Greater love has no man than when he gives his life for a friend...". Your uncle is a great man for taking a job that protects the lives of others. XO

Sayid'sgirl said...

Thrasher
Sorry to hear about the lost of your uncle. My thoughts are with you and your family.

Thrasher76 said...

Fenris, your avitar SCARES the bajeezus out of me....

LOL

Thrasher76 said...

Thanks again for your thoughts and prayers...we may not know each other face to face, but I swear this is the best darn online community ever, people could learn a great deal from all of you on here day in and day out!!

Word!!

Peace and Namaste and such!!

takes a village said...

Thrasher,
I am sorry to hear the news.I'll be praying for you and your family

Ange said...

Glad to see me again Thrash? I wasn't aware that I went anywhere LOL, I NEVER go anywhere!

Dennis said...

Thrasher, I'm very sorry to hear about your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

Dennis said...

Fenris said... Remember that Eko was meant to be taken from the Tailies by the Others, but being the tough guy he is, he managed to avoid that. So I think it is safe to assume that Julliet, Locke and Eko were all on "The List". Which would explain their special treatment.

But that is interesting as well. Eko had a kind of Judgement from the black smoke.


I think the official Hostile research would have shown that Eko was a priest - list worthy.

However, when Eko was "scanned" by Smokey, his murderous past was revealed.

maven said...

But, Dennis, didn't the Hostiles (which I'm assuming you mean Ben's group of Others) have a pretty thick dossier on the Losties? They did on Jack and Kate, etc. Wouldn't they have known about Eko's true past?

capcom said...

Dennis, are you saying that there would be two "dossiers" on Eko? One, the result of the Others research, on paper in their files - and a second, the result of Smokey's heart/mind-scan, known only to Smokey? Sorry if I'm dense.

BTW, me, 11/06. Do we have enough B-days for parties in every month of the year yet? :o)

maven said...

Hey, Dennis...Re the Birthday List...
Are you going to gather and put everyone's big day in a comment so we can all have it or are you going to be the Birthday Announcer? LOL

memphish said...

I think there are 2 dossiers -- one gathered in normal internet search, private detective type methods and another gathered via Smokey. I think most of the Others do not have access to Smokey's info. I think of all the Others we've seen maybe Ben, maybe Patchy does/did, but not everyone. Maybe only Jacob does. I think I'd like it if it were only Jacob. It would go to Locke's whole cheating thing.

Brianne said...

memphish- Maybe that ties into why Ben wants to be friends with Locke...not only because Ben's in the wheelchair and Locke isn't, but also because Locke passed Smokey's test too.

memphish said...

Good idea Brianne. If I were Ben I'd want to understand how to live peacably with Smokey without needing a sonic fence.

scoutpost said...

Afternoon everybody. Don't have much to add at this point. Going to try to go listen to the podcast soon.


Thrasher- I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle. I will definitely keep your family in my prayers. Take care.

Ange said...

memphish said...I think most of the Others do not have access to Smokey's info

I agree with this as Juliet implied with the whole fence thing, that they knew OF Smokey, but not really ABOUT it.

maven said...

Memphish said: I think there are 2 dossiers -- one gathered in normal internet search, private detective type methods and another gathered via Smokey.

This makes sense to me. From what little we know, the Others do not have control over Smokey. The information Smokey "scans" from people might be a different set of criteria than what the Others deem important. Their idea of what makes people good/bad might be different from Smokey's good/bad criteria. Then again, the Other might have just amassed info on the Losties to see who can help their agenda (like Jack being a surgeon, Walt and Locke having special connection/power with the island).

capcom said...

Right Brianne, that's what I was thinking today too. Maybe Ben wants to know how it is that Locke was able to look Smokey in the eye and Smokey saw what it liked? And that when you "commune" with Smokey, somehow you commune with the island? And so far the Others haven't had the nerve to look Smokey in the eye yet? Just guessin' here.

memphish said...

I like your new avatar capcom.

Brianne said...

capcom said... And that when you "commune" with Smokey, somehow you commune with the island?

I agree...remember when Smokey killed Eko, Locke told Desmond, Hurley, and Charlie that Eko's death was "the sacrifice the island demanded"

maven said...

Gosh, it's so depressing going to your Blogger account and seeing your new age updated and displayed! LOL

capcom said...

Thanks! I'm finally teaching myself how to do it today. I know, it's about time. :o) Only took me a year to try it.

And Google forced me to get a google account today, it would not take my password all day, and I know that I was typing everything correctly. :-p

capcom said...

Don't worry Maven, at least we're still in the "F" numbers. I figure that when we get into the "S" numbers, then we can start getting down. But I still say "F-f-f-f-f-fiftytwo" when someone asks me my age, I still can't say it without extreme dificulty.

maven said...

I'm with ya, Capcom!

capcom said...

BTW, has anyone checked out the seemingly photo-shopped image of the person who won the T-shirt on Mandrakewig's myspace? Methinks that the contest was perhaps not authentic, or else it was his sister/daughter who won. :o) The winner's photo is filed in his pics page. Always something entertaining from Mandrakewig!

maven said...

You're right, Capcom! The T-Shirt winner looks like his photo-shopped twin!

Ange said...

ROFL capcom, that is Lauren and she/he is "gender evolved" and fabulous! ;).

capcom said...

Right! His blog entry for the winner does say something like "Keep the male, embrace the female", or whatever. Bwahahahaha. He got us again!

chucklez3 said...

fenris: 8 people with masks hardly equates to all 50 wearing them.

plus, sure. if you have 8, some are "backup". do you think if sayid saw them coming that he'd go down peacefully. no. it's called taking precautions.

and i never said that it's not possible that there's another agenda. i was simply stating what I believe it was.

btw: thanks ange. my point exactly.

memphish: maybe smokey will form itself as an anvil and drop on juliet. eh.....

chucklez3 said...

you got it thrash.

Darkaardvark said...

Hey all,

One thing I felt was missed in the podcast: Just because the sonic fence is designed to keep Smokey out doesn't mean that Smokey and the Others aren't connected. Smokey might be a security system gone bad, or any number of numerous things.



Here's a random off-topic find:

I was watching "The Other 48 Days." At the start, we see the ocean and then pieces of the tail section begin falling from the sky. When the main part of the tail section hits the water- it makes the exact sound that the monster does!! I was quite excited to find this. Having not started watching Lost live until the 3rd season, I wasn't around for discussions on Seasons 1 & 2. So am I the last one to figure this out? I'll put up a sound clip of it later if you guys want, but if you have the episode I suggest you go listen - it is really the exact sound that the Monster uses (or at least one of them, the grinding-metallic type noise.)

Which brings me to another question that's bothered me for a while. The two-tone whistle that we hear every time we see the Monster (I'm sure you know what I mean), is that actually a sound that the monster makes, or is that just a musical cue that they use? It doesn't seem to fit with the Monster's other sounds but I've never been able to figure out if the Losties were hearing it as well as us.

JGZ350 said...

Good evening Locos-

Just now getting a chance to catch up with the comments. Preparing for the office move is eating up all my LOST time at work.

I have to admit that my favorite mystery of LOST is definitely smokey. I believe smokey is the key to that godforsaken island.

Thrasher, my deepest condolences go out to you and your family. I will pray for you and your family. May your uncle rest in peace.

Fenris said...

Chuckles said - "fenris: 8 people with masks hardly equates to all 50 wearing them."

I never actually said everyone was wearing them, just that everyone we *saw* was wearing them. Similar to yourself I'm not saying that there is definitely an Agenda just that it's possible. However you cannot rule out that the rest weren't equiped with gasmasked as we haven't seen them. The only fact we have is that all of the Others we saw leave the camp were equiped with gas masks.

"plus, sure. if you have 8, some are "backup". do you think if sayid saw them coming that he'd go down peacefully. no. it's called taking precautions."

What exactly is Sayid going to do? Last we saw him he was handcuffed and not exactly in a position to fight back.

Taking precautions is one thing, but that doesn't fit. If they are being cautious why are they all also carrying all their gear? Surely if they are expecting some kind of fight back they would grab the gear after they are sure Sayid is unconcious. On the other hand eight fully armed people with gas masks seems a lot of precautions to gas up to four captives. Also if they were that cautious howcome they don't normally have so many guards on their carptives?

Anyway, my whole point was that it's a possibility, nothing more and I did say that at the least it was a bit over precautious as if they were following some kind of health and safety guide to gassing people.

memphish said...

Happy Birthday JGZ350!

Darkaardvark, I'll check out that scene in The Other 48 Days later this morning. As for the whistle, I understand the question, but I don't know the answer. I suppose someone should rewatch all the Smokey scenes and document when it does stuff with the trees, when it makes which noises, when we actually see it, etc., but it's not going to be me. There is a compilation on Lostpedia if someone wants to build a case around the sounds.

As for the great gas mask debate, I'm hoping we get a line of exposition from Sayid early in the next episode describing what he saw when the Others left Othersville and maybe even a question to Juliet about it, not that I would necessarily believe her answer.

Final early morning idea and this is not spoiler based, just an idea I thought of in the night. I wouldn't be surprised if Juliet's interrogation is halted by the Losties needing her medical help with Sun who I predict will start to have a miscarriage.

Dennis said...


Happy Birthday JGZ350!

memphish said...

Kristen from E! interviewed cast members. You can watch and read from here. If someone who doesn't mind spoilers could post the non-spoilery info. here, I'd appreciate it.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Happy Lost Day LoCos
Happy Birthday JGZ350!

memphish said
I wouldn't be surprised if Juliet's interrogation is halted by the Losties needing her medical help with Sun who I predict will start to have a miscarriage.

Oh I'm sure some will stop him like Ana did with Ben. Probably Jack even though he told Locke he was wrong for stopping him.

Ange said...

memphish said...Juliet's interrogation is halted by the Losties needing her medical help with Sun who I predict will start to have a miscarriage.

Wow, good thinking there. What a good way for Juliet to "build trust" with the Losties as well. FWIW, I still think Kate is going to end up pregnant as well from her union with scruffy Sawyer and his scratchy beard and fish biscuit breath.

memphish said...

Sayid's girl, I'm interested to see what Jack's role or non-role will be in allowing the Losties to question Juliet. Will he have learned from their Ben experience? They need to question him too. What does he mean the kids are safe. What Jack? What? And will Jack or Juliet tell the rest of the Losties about her branding?

Ange said...

memphish said...And will Jack or Juliet tell the rest of the Losties about her branding?

I predict some sort of drama-rama where her shirt is yanked up and some sort of dialogue like, "LOOK WHAT THEY DID TO HER/ME!" will ensue. LOL, I am feeling sorta cynical about Juliet today, can you tell?

Sayid'sgirl said...

Just checking my avatar I had to lighten it up a bit.

memphish said...

Drama-rama, that sums up Season 3 pretty well. Good dialogue prediction ange. Another trust builder. My guess is Jack will use it and the joke's on him because I'm in the "the brand means she's one of us" camp. I'm always cynical about Juliet.

Sayid'sgirl said...

I don't trust Juliet either. She may have been a whimp before she came to the island but now she's cold hearted and calculating. No matter how much she plays Jack with poor pitiful me. Sawyer had her pegged. I don't look for him to trust her no matter what.

Twinkle said...

Maven, Capcom, thanks for asking about me. I did catch up for now. Life is busier right now and Lost has been on the back burner. But I posted a few observations about the last two episodes on SOTL.

New conclusions (for me): The spiders have nothing to do with the monster. The sound effect seemed to be the usual Hollywood "spiders are coming" sound. Was there some connection to Smokey that I missed?

I personally loved seeing more of Dr. Arzt and how N & P's stories interwove. I love the role Hurley is playing in the group now. I have a question about why Juliet referred to the sound barrier as "ours." Did Dharma build them or did the Others? Where did Rousseau go? I believe that Juliet doens't possess all the knowledge of the Others in regards to Smokey. So when she says, "We don't know what it is," she could be lying or misinformed.

Finally about the list, why were Ford and Austin on Jacob's list of people for the Others to take? The lists must serve different purposes. The kids and some of the others were taken because they were "good." Eventually Locke joined this group too, but was never, that we know of, on a list to be taken. Sawyer and Kate don't fit into that grouping. Jack was taken for Ben's sake. And Hurley was taken to take a message back to camp. So what purpose did the Others have for taking Sawyer and Kate and did they fulfill it? (Was it just for hard labor?)

Sorry if I'm bringing up dumb stuff because I'm behind.

memphish said...

Twinkle, the answer to why Kate and Sawyer seems to be given by Ben in the Pearl during Expose. He took them to exploit Jack's emotional investment in Kate primarily and arguably to some extent in Sawyer too. Sawyer says he's never had a friend. I'd guess Jack never really has either given his tattoo and the fact that he's in Thailand alone. Ben and Juliet are watching the Swan right after the injured and all but dead Sawyer returns from across the Island and we've seen both Kate and Jack caring for him.

The rock busting project? I still don't get that one. I think it was just to wear them down physically to make them more vulnerable emotionally.

I wonder if Locke will start referring to the Losties by their last names now like the Others do among themselves?

Ange said...

HI TWINKLE!
twinkle said...The sound effect seemed to be the usual Hollywood "spiders are coming" sound. Was there some connection to Smokey that I missed?

If you listen carefully to that scene right before the spiders come you can hear the monster "chittering" sound. It has been isolated and compared to a known scene where the monster chitters, and the sound is the same. Seems like Smokey was lurking right before the spiders pounced.

also...

twinkle said...So what purpose did the Others have for taking Sawyer and Kate and did they fulfill it?

My theory...to make a mini Sawyer-Katelet. Dunno though is that will happen.

memphish said...

Ange's favorite theory of the day is a 1/2 sibling for Clementine. Make sure you mention it in all your posts today Ange. LOL.

Let's work with that premise. Juliet should now know something about the rapidly aging wombs. Let's say Sun starts to lose her baby because of that problem and it's too late to stop it. Then Kate finds out she's pregnant because there are still Widmore pregnancy tests on the Island and now Kate needs Juliet to help her preserve the pregnancy using whatever means (maybe the same shots Claire gets in Maternity Leave) Juliet has developed in her 3 years on-island.

And before everyone starts nit-picking, yes I know Desmond was taking the same injections, but Juliet did impregnate a male mouse.

BarbaraJay said...

This hasn't been discussed here (that I remember) but I know it has been in other places. The tree that seems to be a sanctuary from Smokey is a banyan tree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banyan

The banyan has been viewed as spiritual or mystical by many cultures.

http://www.plantcultures.org.uk/plants/banyan_spiritual.html

Ange said...

memphish...hehehe you made me giggle and I choked on my coffee. Hey, did I mention that I think Kate may be having Saweyer's baby?!

Also...Desmond was taking the same injections, but Juliet did impregnate a male mouse.

Nothing wrong with the injection theory, maybe it is a fertility drug that works for both men and women...not just a gender specific one. That would be a break through worth testing. Maybe not as drastic as on an island no one knows about, but still.

Codysmom said...

First of all, Thrasher, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.


I'm always cynical about Juliet, too, memphish. You and ange have it right, I think. And it fits in with my theory of the beachies letting Juliet stay because they need an OB-GYN and maybe even pediatrician. Do you remember Aaron getting sick and Jack kind-of poo-pooing it? That's what led Claire and Kate to go back to the medical hatch for medicine. Jack isn't known for his bedside manner and I'm sure Juliet could lay it on thick. I'm also wondering if Kate is pregnant. I love your idea of Sun having an emergency and this interupts Sayid's interrogation.

I love your ideas of the "drama-rama" where Juliet is shown to have the "mark". I think it will be Jack who reveals this, not Juliet (which will lend more credence to it).

Will this season (or next) end with Jack saying "I was wrong" (about Juliet) just like Locke said "I was wrong" about the hatch?

Ange said...

barbarajay from the Banyan link: It is regarded as a sin to destroy either of these trees.

There has been some speculation that there is an almost ceremonial or religious piece to the Others and the island IE: the 4 toed statue, and the robes/ceremony when Colleen died. Maybe the spirituality rubs off on Smokey as well in some way. Maybe it can not destroy (programmed this way?) one of these trees, even if it wants someone hiding in one.

Codysmom said...

Interesting stuff, barbarajay. From the second article you mentioned:

Banyan is mentioned in the Buddhist Jataka tales. In the tale of Satyavan and Savitri, Satyavan lost his life beneath the branches of a banyan. Savitri courageously entered into a debate with Yama, the God of Death, and won his life back.

hmmmm

JGZ350 said...

Good Morning Locos and a tremendous Tuesday to you-

Thanks one and all for the birthday wishes.

Just taking a quite break from work and reading over the comments.
Was reading over at DarkUfo in the spoiler section, (don't worry, I am not going to spoil anything) and read something about how there will be a major reveal in every episode for the rest of S3. Given TPTB definition of a 'major reveal', I can only imagine what they plan on revealing. Probably something minute no doubt. I'm betting that the biggest reveal, and this is pure speculation on my part, will be in the season finale.

Codysmom said...

Happy Birthday, jgz350!!!!!!!!!!

Codysmom said...

Speculation on "major" reveals:

Desmond is pregnant?

Juliet is a plant?

Locke killed Cooper?

The sub is NOT blown up?

Danielle is following the Others?

The others have a jet?

Tall Guy said...

The Others have a Jet? I like that. I still think they were building a runway on the Hydra island.

maven said...

Happy Birthday, JGZ350! Hope you have a great day!

I, too, think Juliette will factor into Sun's pregnancy. I don't know about Kate getting pregnant, though. That would seem too soap operish for me!

Codysmom said...

more major reveals:

Sawyer is illiterate?

Juliet's mark glows in the dark?

Juliet is actually the leader of the Others (my daughter's idea)

There's an underground city on the island?

Dennis said...

maven said... But didn't the Hostiles/Others have a pretty thick dossier on the Losties? They did on Jack and Kate, etc. Wouldn't they have known about Eko's true past?

capcom said... Dennis, are you saying that there would be two "dossiers" on Eko? One, the result of the Others research, on paper in their files - and a second, the result of Smokey's heart/mind-scan, known only to Smokey?

I think the information that the Others would have been able to gather would have only gone back as far as when Mr. Eko moved to London. I don't think any records would exist of Mr. Eko's life in Nigeria. As far as the Others were concerned, he was a priest that was born in Nigeria, then moved to London, etc.

I think Smokey was able to deep-scan his mind and discover his true past which led to Mr. Eko "reckoning".

I don't think the the Others control Smokey, so they do not have access to Smokey's "dossiers".

Dennis said...

capcom said... Do we have enough B-days for parties in every month of the year yet? :o)

No, not yet. We don't have anybody in May or October. We do have two people with the same birthday - Melissa_Lossa & CattyGirl!

I have 19 people on "the list" so far. I'll post the list in the next post.

Ange said...

dennis said...I think Smokey was able to deep-scan his mind and discover his true past which led to Mr. Eko "reckoning".
How though, how do you deep scan a mind? I guess I am still clutching onto the idea that there will be a scientific-ish explanation to everything rather than a sci-fi-ish one (not that there is anything wrong with either!).

Also, I am October 2...so there you go.

maven said...

Dennis said: I don't think the the Others control Smokey, so they do not have access to Smokey's "dossiers".

Agreed. I don't think Smokey was ever controlled by anyone. Most likely, Dharma let the "cat out of the bag" and Smokey has been let loose on the island. I wonder how they figured out that Smokey didn't like sonic waves and they then built the fence.

bigdog said...

codysmom - desmond pregnant, sawyer illiterate and juliet mark glows in the dark. very funny i knew i could pop in here and get a good smile.

happy bday JGZ350.

thrasher - sorry for your loss. and thanks to your uncle for serving and protecting .. true hero stuff.

my bday jan 18.

Dennis said...

DING! DING! DING! DING!

We have another match! You have the same birthday as Thrasher76!

Codysmom said...

bigdog, glad I made you smile! You have the same birthday as my daughter, so I'm sure you are an amazing person and we'd get along.. ha ha Capricorns are the bomb!!

Dennis said: I don't think the the Others control Smokey, so they do not have access to Smokey's "dossiers".

I agree with this, too.

Codysmom said...

LOL, dennis, ding, ding, ding! That makes Thrasher the bomb, too, IMO. (can you tell my daughter and I are tight?)

memphish said...

Great comments while I was away.

Codysmom said, Will this season (or next) end with Jack saying "I was wrong" (about Juliet) just like Locke said "I was wrong" about the hatch? I hope it's this week where we here it.

Major reveals I want (there should be 7 if one an episode, 8 if one an hour right?):

1. Vincent is Smokey.

2. Where Michael and Walt are.

3. There's a Library Hatch with 8 copies of Carrie and Sawyer is made the new Librarian in town.

4. Libby was tied to Dharma.

5. What the heck the Others mean by good.

6. Claire and Jack find out they are siblings.

7. Rose reveals to the entire group she was healed and so was Locke.

8. Ben steals Locke's walking ability.

Codysmom said...

memphish, LOL, Library Hatch with Sawyer as Librarian!

Be back later.... I've got the cable guy coming to install "better than digital" boxes on my tv's. If anyone can recommend going with (comcast) cable for their phone service, let me know. I think it'd save me some money to get rid of my AT&T land-line, but not sure if I want to.

memphish said...

Codysmom, I can recommend you absolutely not! go with Comcast for your phone. In Memphis we were forced to switch from Time Warner to Comcast this year and every person I know who has the phone service has had tons of problems. That includes my friend who's voice mail hasn't worked for 3 months and my niece and nephew who feel like they're talking in a wind tunnel when they use their phone. And anytime you have to go their office (don't ask why) 1/2 the people in line are there because of the phone service and of course, you can't call them. Don't do it!

Moreover, in Memphis in July 2004 we had straight line winds blow through the city for 5-10 minutes, a storm we refer to as Hurricane Elvis. As a result, I didn't have power for 9 1/2 days and didn't have cable and internet for 3 weeks, but the phone worked through it all.

capcom said...

Hi Twinkle! Are you all caught up now in the eps? It's great to hear from you again. :-) Hope that things are going well for you.

I agree Dennis that Smokey would know more about people by scanning their hearts than the Others' homework internet would reveal. I never thought of that until you mentioned it, that's why I was checking to make sure that I understood you said corectly. Good thinkin'.

I would like to see Sawyer preggers...if we think he's crabby now.......oh boy!

I want Desmond to have my baby! :o)

I love banyan trees, they are like ready-made tree forts! Thanks for the interesting info. I would not be able to justify why Smokey might not be able to get into tight spaces, because smoke can, but it looks like that the case to me (when they hide in there) unless of course it is because they are indeed some kind of "sanctuary" from the law (Smokey's law) like churches used to be. I'm sure that the trees grow rampant on the islands anyway, but it would be great if TPTB worked something like that into the story, since the trees are there in there location shots to use anyway.

Interesting thought that Juliet might get "in" with the Losties via assisting in a possible health problem with Sun.

lord_lephuronn said...

First post in a very long time (it's Shakey from TLE)! Been lurking off and on for a while but I felt the need to post as I might have something to say, although this has all probably been covered. Gotta be quick though as I'm rushed of my feet at work...

1: Juliet
Tying together a lot of opinions here I think she's more like a sleeper agent than a plant/mole - she IS undercover but does not know she is: Ben's set everything up to have her infiltrate the camp, gain the Fusies' trust (fertility doctor specifically and 2nd medically-trained person in the camp now) and fully integrate into the community. For what purpose remains to be seen (what about Desmond? The Other want to know how the hell he survived the Swan implosion and the effects it's had on him - they already have Locke) but the key here is that Juliet genuinely believes she's been left behind, so no matter how much Sayid can "work" on her she's always telling the truth, because it IS the truth to her.

2: Smokey
Who knows what's going on there, but it looks very much like it chases and works on echolocation like a bat or motion-sensing. The sonic field would create such a disruption to Smokey's tracking ability/vision that it goes crazy, repeatedly butting into the sonic fence before ultimately giving up and retreating. Bats go crazy ape if their echolocation is messed with before running off - smokey's done the same.

It's interesting that Juliet's never seen it before when Rousseau knows exactly what it is, which leads me to think that Rousseu is DHARMA and the Others are the "hostiles" who've taken over the DHARMA site.

3: Christian
We have seen scenes with a positive ID on his corpse and talk of autopsy reports. Did we ever see his body in the morgue? Was it all stiched back up like in a full autopsy or not? I'm thinking one of two things:

a: he faked his death using the near-death appearance akin to Medusa's venom for some reason (to which crashing on the island's messed up his plans for whatever he was going to do).

b: he WAS dead but the island brought him back. Locke's back was healed but we don't know why, Rose's cancer was cured but we don't know why. Maybe Christian fits into the island's reasoning and brought him back too.


And just a little thing from a few posts ago re the Medusa spider and Artz's discoveries:

I was going to post last week but got dragged away. Having watched the episode a few times now I've noticed that what he says is actually two seperate sentences, each with their own subject. Basically he says "I've discovered lots of new things" (end of sentence). He then replies to "what's this?" with "oh that's Medusa" (new topic).

So it's not a case of "I've discovered lots of new things, including this spider that I'm conveniently going to call Medusa because of the properties of her venom that I don't know about" as Medusa is a known species which just happens to exist on this island also. Interestingly, if Artz is as knowledgable as he appears then he'd possibly be able to work out where in the world the island based on Medusa's life known habitats.


Anyway, that's my mighty tome - back to lurking probably!

memphish said...

Lord_lephurron, great post.

I have a follow-up question about Juliet. If she's a sleeper do you think she's programmed with some trigger like The Manchurian Candidate or will Ben approach her at some point in the future and make her another deal to sell out the Losties?

lord_lephuronn said...

Quick clarification I forgot to put in:

Smokey working on motion-sensing through air disturbances would explain why you can avoid it by staying still and staying quiet (like the T-Rex from Jurassic Park or a movement version of Predator's vision). Turning on the sonic fence would agitate air molecules so much that all smokey can "see" is a big wall of noise. Given that it's in "chase mode" when Jules switches on the sonic fence smokey's going to get very, very confused by its target disappearing behind this wall so it's going to go crazy ape at the wall, ultimately getting disrupted by it before retreating.

capcom said...

Good theories Lord Shakey. I especially can see Jules being tricked by Ben to give her that "innocence" that can't be broken by interogation, and then Ben can interrogate her when/if ever she returns to the Others' group.

I also agree that it's possible that Christian could have been fake-dead. Why would TPTB throw in that weird sentence where CS talks about some mysterious way to make someone look dead? He could just as easily have said, "I know how to suffocate (or whatever) someone so it won't implicate you in a murder, to put her out of her misery." Or something to that effect. Altho, I can't come up with a good reason why he would want to pretend to be dead (barring that he is a DI person and/or he was told to do so) as yet.

I like the Smokey sonar idea as well. The dimensions of the sonic/microwave/whatever effect of the fence domes may spread out like an open paper fan sort of. That is wide in the direction of the fence perimeter, but very flat in the way of depth perp to the fenceline. I have to explain it like that to myself, to grasp why Smokey could go right up to it (due to the beam's flatness) and not get affected by it, but also not be able to go over it (because of the height of the "fan" dimensions possibly).

lord_lephuronn said...

memphish:

Call me Shakey (even though I'm using my Google account) as that's what I'm used to lol especially amongst you guys (although I doubt anybody will remember be *sob*)

I don't think Jules has any sublymonal (:P) programming to sell out our Losties when Ben comes back for her, but I feel that she genuinely is frustrated with her life now and desperate to return home - all Ben will need to say is "tell me everything and you really can go home".

Ange said...

Lord_lephurron (aka Shakey...PS I remember you)- I really like that idea about Juliet being a sleeper. To piggyback a little on what memphish said, I do think that Juliet will get another offer from Ben (and/or a deal she can't refuse) rather than a trigger.

capcom said...Altho, I can't come up with a good reason why he would want to pretend to be dead (barring that he is a DI person and/or he was told to do so) as yet.
Well, his medical career is pretty much over, his son hates him (or so he thinks), his illegitimate daughter doesn't want to even know his name, he is an alcholic, etc...there are lots of little reasons he may want to end his old life. And if you have the ability to make that change without actually dying, why not? When he said that to Claire in the hospital, it clicked for me that he may not be dead. I really think that he has a lot more to do with everything than we know yet...especially now with the Claire connection.

lord_lephuronn said...

capcom:

I don't think there was any real reason why smokey couldn't just fly over the fence other than the fact it was just freaked out and frazzled by the sonic field - I refer back to the bats who has their echolocation messed with. It's almost as if they just bug out and freak, losing all sense of judgement and just retreat. It looks to me smokey did the same.

We've not seen anything to date to indicate what smokey's maximum operating altitude is to really comment on if it could or could not fly over the sonic emitters.

Now here comes a MAJOR OMFG moment for Lost: if the next time smokey comes across the sonic fence and instead slowly creeps up over it instead of retreating, then it shows smokey has the capacity to LEARN...

Ange said...

If Smokey can learn to go over the fence, it means Smokey saw the Losties do it, and is lurking a lot more than we are shown. Also, I SO wanted comment 108 :D

capcom said...

Good point Ange, if CS is not Him, or DI, or an Other, he was kind of a coward in certain parts of his life and it might make sense that he would go out that way to perhaps 'not cause anymore damage to the people he loves', as he might put it. If he did take something to zombify himself, he might have taken it when he was drinking with Sawyer. Did he pop any pills in those scenes? :o)

Dennis said...

capcom said... I would not be able to justify why Smokey might not be able to get into tight spaces, because smoke can, but it looks like that the case to me (when they hide in there) unless of course it is because they are indeed some kind of "sanctuary" from the law (Smokey's law) like churches used to be.

Maybe there is something underneath all that smoke that we can't see - sort of like Pig-Pen from Peanuts.

lord_lephuronn said...

capcom + ange:

In regards to Daddy Shep I really am at a loss as to why he would fake his death because I cannot see how it would relate to anything on the island. If Flight 815 never went down then he would've ended up nice and safely in LA ready for Jack to arrange the burial.

I've never subscribed to the idea that DI/Others intentionally brought down the flight so I can't see how Christian would be an Other/DI or in any way linked to the island for him to know that he'll crash where he needs to be.

However, let us read into the effects of the MEdusa spider showing up so soon after Christian's inferred you can LOOK dead and draw from it that TPTB are saying he's faked it and is very much alive: the plane's gone down, he's woken up in a place unplanned and now he has to deal with it. Obviously he wants to interract with Jack in some way otherwise he wouldn't have stood in plain site for Jack to see him (unless he wanted to mess with Jack's head which does not match his attitude presented when he met Sawyer), but now he has to do it on the island.

"Hi son. I do love you really and you did the right thing. By the way I faked my death for reasons I'm never going to carry out now - forgive me?"

Although I think it would be cool if the island brought him back to life, but that's going too Sci-Fi for my liking and not fitting what TPTB have said they're doing.

How's this for another idea: something's fully manifested itself as Yemi for Eko, what if Jack's going to get the same treatment?

P.S. ange ta for remembering! nice to know :P

capcom said...

That would be interesting Shakey! Too bad that they didn't teach Smokey Azimov's three rules of robotics, just in case he did gain the ability to learn beyond simple logical computations. That is, if someone did actually create Smokey.

lord_lephuronn said...

capcom:

Would a semi-sentient security system subscribe to or be programmed with Asimov's 3 laws?

"Target acquired - intruder detected. Pursuit initiated. Intruder getting into places he should - prevention imperative. Shit it's a human so I can't hurt it. Shit shit it's done what I needed to prevent. Damn those rules programmed into me"

Even Robocop could shoot the bad guys with his directives in place.

memphish said...

Hi Shakey! I lurked thru TLE, but as you've seen I'm unable to keep my fingers quiet these days.

I like the Smokey sonic stuff y'all have going. Unfortunately I doubt we'll get to see Smokey and the Fence again, at least for a while.

Another question I want asked of Juilet is what the heck are the injections. Claire should still have the set from the most recent food drop and both she and Desmond should want to know the answer to that question. Maybe it could be used to help Sun. Maybe it does protect from a sickness and there will be all kinds of plotting in the Losties to get it for themselves.

Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out there were 3-4 background girls who are pregnant too. After all they have to have been doing something all this time. You can only tote so many logs.

Twinkle said...

Hi back, everybody!

Ben and Juliet: It is soo possible that Ben is letting Juliet get close to the Losties for his own ulterior motives. As much as I think he's a bad buy, I really admire his ability to take any situation and twist it to meet his own ends. IMO, so far, the two most dangerous things on the island are Ben and Smokey.

Memphish, I read the scene with Ben and Juliet in the Pearl differently. Putting it all together, Jacob had a list of people that they used Micheal to bring to the Others. Jack was brought because of Ben. He "wasn't on the list." Hurley was brought to take a message back to camp. So that could imply that Kate and Sawyer were on Jacob's list for some reason. It was only Jack that anyone (in two separate episodes) objected to not being on the list that I recall. Still I could be reading it wrong. Sawyer and Kate aren't like the other kinds of people the Others abducted.

Ange, I listened to the spider sounds too. Glad to hear some people have been doing comparisons with Smokey. Seems to me that either the spiders are connected to Smokey or else it was the typical "spiders are coming" sound affect where someone in the effects department got lazy and used the same sound that they also mix into Smokey. My money is on the latter.

Also about the injections. I'd just assumed they were the same medication because it was the same label on the same bottle. But what if Juliet used old empty equipment and put her formulation in it it? That means that the Dharma vaccine Desmond took wouldn't be the same as what they injected into Claire.

I liked the theory about Smokey taking internal pictures when it flashed Juliette and Kate. I think it just left them alone until it had assessed them instead of that they were safe from it in the tree. Why didn't Smokey go above the sound barrier? The sonar explanation is a good one. I'm sad because clues point to Smokey not being as intelligent as I thought. The big implication now is that Smokey and the Others are operating on different ideas of right/wrong, good/bad. I've lumped them together until now because they both are judging people and could have been working together. But it seems likely that they aren't. The differences between how Smokey and the Others define "good" could have huge consequences.

Shakey I'm with you on what Artz said about the spiders. One sentence pointed out the new things he'd discovered and the second was about the Medusa. Two separate topics. He could have reasonably known what species were new if entymology was his pastime. My son knows lots of dinosaurs and he's only 4 (almost 5!).

So sorry for your loss, Thrasher.

lord_lephuronn said...

Oh and I think smokey is man-made in some capacity. If it's a spirit or naturally-occuring in some way then that kinda goes against the "everything's explainable by modern or near-future science" stance TPTB have.

I've always felt it's some fuzzy logic or semi-sentient AI manipulating a hoard of nanomachines through a manipulated magnetic field. Has that programming decayed? Is that programming too open-ended?

But how has this system survived the Purpling? Obviously it was some kind of major EM pulse as it's blown out all the Other's active electronic devices, so is smokey's central CPU heavily shielded and the cloud of nanomachines are activated when needed?

Certainly we're not going to find out what smokey is until TPTB are ready to reveal major portions of the island's secrets as the two must be heavily connected.

Twinkle said...

memphish: Statistically speaking, with the way people hook up with whoever is available and the lack of birth control on the island, there should be a lot more pregnancies coming. For a healthy, active female with no contraception and no island weirdness, it often only takes about *3 months.* Dum Dum dum

My prediction, this fact will probably go the way of Hurley's weight. They should all be looking more like the people on Survivor too.

Brianne said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
memphish said...

Twinkle, I think there are at least 2 lists in operation when it comes to our main Fusie Losties. There is Jacob's list and the only thing we really know about it is that "Shephard isn't on it." In "I Do," Pickett says Ben's just put his life in the hands of one of them. Shephard wasn't even on Jacob's list. Patchy also implies that Locke, Sayid, Kate and Danielle aren't on it either. Patchy says in "Par Avion" You are not on the list because you are flawed...because you are angry...and weak...and frightened.

Then there's the fix Ben's tumor list given by Klugh to Michael. This conversation takes place in the timeline just prior to the episode "What Kate Did"

Juliet That him? Shephard?
Ben Yes.
Juliet He's cute. Why are we doing this? Shephard will never agree to do the surgery.
Ben No, I can convince him to do it.
Juliet How?
Ben Same way I get anybody to do anything. I find out what he's emotionally invested in...and I exploit it.
Juliet So, what, we just grab all 3 of them...Ford and Austen too.
Ben No, they need to come to us.
Juliet And how do we make that happen?
Ben Michael of course.


To me the timing of this still begs the question of why Tom didn't take Jack, Kate and Sawyer at the line because Michael has drawn them out to the Others at this point, but I'm going to ignore it for now.

I hope that's clearer.

Dennis said...

Hi Twinkle!

This is a a bit of a repeat from Memphish, but since I already typed it...


Twinkle said... Memphish, I read the scene with Ben and Juliet in the Pearl differently. Putting it all together, Jacob had a list of people that they used Micheal to bring to the Others. Jack was brought because of Ben. He "wasn't on the list." Hurley was brought to take a message back to camp. So that could imply that Kate and Sawyer were on Jacob's list for some reason. It was only Jack that anyone (in two separate episodes) objected to not being on the list that I recall. Still I could be reading it wrong. Sawyer and Kate aren't like the other kinds of people the Others abducted.


I think these are all different lists....


The first "list" was Ben's list - he sent Ethan and Goodwin to infiltrate the 815 survivors and make a "list":

From "A Tale of Two Cities"
BEN: You run and you can make that shore line in an hour. Ethan, get up there to that fuselage. There may actually be survivors; and you're one of them. A passenger -- in shock -- come up with an adequate story if they ask. Stay quiet if they don't. Listen, learn, don't get involved. I want lists in 3 days. Go.


The next list was Jacob's list - the list of "good" people - but we don't know how they define good, but it probably includes all the children, etc. This is the list that Pickett says Jack wasn't on.

From "The Other 48 Days"
GOODWIN: Nathan was not a good person. That's why he wasn't on the list.

From "I Do"
PICKETT: Ben just put his life in the hands of one of them! Shephard wasn't on Jacob's list.


The third list is the one Ms. Klugh gave to Michae in order to rescue Ben. It only had four names on it - Jake, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley.

From "Three Minutes"
MS. KLUGH: I'm writing 4 names down -- 4 of your friends. We need you to bring them here. You have to bring only these 4 people, Michael. Just them. If you don't bring all the people on the list, you'll never see Walt again.

Dennis said...

Here's some more "list" info from "The Other 48 Days"

Day 2

Three people taken by the Others - "the blond guy, the curly-haired guy, and the German who was helping us with the injured."

Mr. Eko almost taken, but kills two of the Others instead.

Day 12

[The camp is attacked and the kids and some adults are taken.]
[Ana charges one of the attackers and hits her with a rock.]
[Ana starts going through her clothes, finds a piece of paper and unfolds it.]
GOODWIN: What is that?
ANA: It's a list.
LIBBY: A list of what?
ANA: 9 -- of us.
ANA [to Eko]: Nothing? They drag 9 people into the jungle -- the kids -- and there's no sign of them?
NATHAN: Hey, calm down, let's figure this out.
ANA: Calm down? Let's figure this out? Here are the names of every single person they took -- all 9 of them -- what they were wearing -- what they look like -- one of them had a list of us.
NATHAN: They could have gotten our names from the people they already took.
ANA: Nobody knew anybody's names the first night.
NATHAN: Maybe they're watching us?

capcom said...

Memphish, maybe at the time that Tom met K,S,L,&J in the jungle, they hadn't gotten Jack's history and career info yet? Where does the meeting with "Zeke" fall into the timeline of when Ben and Jules were in the Pearl doing video recon?

Shakey, if Smokey's source is some kind of unit or device I agree with you that its CPU or whatever power/control system it has, had to be protected from the Purpling by somekind of shielding. Or else it was a very radiation-hardened system and way ahead of it's time for those early DI days of electronics!

Codysmom said...

I'm back. Cable guy is gone. Love my new digital boxes! Now I can dream of HD...

memphish, thanks for the warning on Comcast phone service. I wonder if it's as bad here in Mich? The cable guy says he's had it for 3 years and loves it...

Lots of great discussions going on while I was gone!

capcom said...

After the series is done and over, it would be nice if someone could put together a DVD release that has everything in chronological order. That would be so satisfying to watch!

As much as I hate it when people re-release DVDs with a little something extra in them just to make more money, I would love to watch Lost from beginning to end with everything in order. I know, feed me with a spoon. :o)

memphish said...

Codysmom, maybe it's just the switchover that's the problem. Everyone here who had TW phone liked it; it was only when Comcast took over that everything went to h*** in a handbasket. As a corporation they could not have devised a plan to alienate a city any more effectively than their plan to convince us our new service is "Comcastic" which here in Memphis does not mean what they wish it meant.

Capcom, from the Lostpedia Timeline:

Day 48:
Eko carries Sawyer to the Swan bunker.

Day 49:
Paulo returns to The Pearl and hides the diamonds in the bathroom. While there, he overhears a conversation between Ben and Juliet, during which Ben describes his plan to convince Jack to give him medical treatment by using Michael to kidnap Jack, Sawyer and Kate.
Sawyer feels good enough to walk with Kate's assistance. They both see the black horse outside.
Michael receives a message on the computer from Walt (or someone claiming to be him).

Day 52:
That night, Jack, Locke and Sawyer encounter the Others and Tom forces them to turn back, using Kate as a hostage.


Which is not to say that Lostpedia is perfect, but it's as good as I'm going to get.

And since it hasn't been mentioned in a while Ange thinks/hope that there is a baby Sawyer bun in Kate's oven.

memphish said...

My son just read his spelling list in a Pirate voice. Reminds me of "Talk Like a Pirate Day." He was wearing a hook at the time as well.

Codysmom said...

Thanks again for the info, memphish. And, you beat me to it with the timeline!

Reading spelling list in Pirate voice ... arg! I miss those days. My son is grown and gone to CA.

Codysmom said...

capcom, I'd like a dvd of each character's experiences on the island in chronological order with extras. I don't ask for much...

I also think the whole series from the Other's point of view would be very interesting!

capcom said...

Thanks Memphish, so that makes your question even more meaningful. How was the second time around - with the blow-darts no less - any more of a "convincing" Jack to volunteer or acquiesce his surgical services, than when the original A-team went after Mike and they had the chance to "convince" him then? Especially when they also had Kate captive that first time? Hmmmmm.

Well, I don't know if what I just said makes any sense to anyone but moi. :o)

memphish said...

Capcom, Dennis and I went back and forth on the question after Expose aired. We might add that to the list of things that didn't work out too well for Ben.

Brianne said...

I'm really just getting in here today, so I thought I'd insert my 2 cents:

Twinkle said...The lists must serve different purposes. The kids and some of the others were taken because they were "good."

and...it was referenced to that Sayid said something to the effect of 50 people vanished into thin air.

I was wondering if anyone noticed this rapture reference that was also mentioned in the last podcast. There is a series of books called "The Left Behind Series" by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins that is essentially the authors version of the Book of Revelations "played-out." In this series, those refered to as "left behind" were those who were not taken at the rapture(believers and the innocent) Since the people that were "taken" are also always deemed "safe", what does that really mean? any thougts?
-----------------------------------
also, I think that Rousseau is off following the others to where ever they are going in their gas masks. I think eventually she'll show back up on the show, whether its this season or next, with a location of the others. How that may play out, I have no idea...
-----------------------------------
Another thought that I had was that it seems to me that Smokey is only around after there's and electo-magnetic event. I think that actual smoke monster kind of dissappeared there for a while, and then returned. It was there when the plane crashed (as Paolo mentioned in a flashback and the Pilot was taken way back when...)and then again after the Hatch exploded/imploded...Does the island release Smokey when there's an event?

Oh, and my birthday is Nov. 12th!

capcom said...

I guess that's why they used the blow darts the second time around?? Heh-heh. Maybe the first time was, "Don't cross this line...winkwink...and today is Opposite Day." :o)

memphish said...

Dennis suggested that they didn't take J,K and S during The Hunting Party because Tom et al didn't have orders to do that, merely to take Michael. I think this is the most likely explanation and I think it's another instance of Ben underestimating Jack.

If the Others had watched Michael from The Pearl, they would have seen Michael lock Locke and Jack in the closet. No one was due to show up for hours. It was only "coincidence (or fate)" that Kate and Sawyer showed up in time to push the button.

Ben didn't anticipate that Jack wouldn't want to lose "One of Us," and would pursue Michael, thus Tom had no orders regarding taking J,K and S at that point and may not have even been in Ben's inner circle (since to quote Ben Tom's "no one") with regards to the tumor and the "kidnap a spinal surgeon" project.

There, I think I've finally answered my own question.

Dennis said...

capcom said... Thanks Memphish, so that makes your question even more meaningful. How was the second time around - with the blow-darts no less - any more of a "convincing" Jack to volunteer or acquiesce his surgical services, than when the original A-team went after Mike and they had the chance to "convince" him then? Especially when they also had Kate captive that first time? Hmmmmm.


Sayid'sgirl and I went back a forth on this too.

I think we also settled on that the whole torch-lighting scene was a ruse, and that they didn't have the numbers (and maybe the permission from Ben) to take them at the time. When they Jack, John, & Sawyer meet Mr. friendly (aka Tom) in "The Hunting Party", it seems they are out numbered. But later in "3 minutes", we only see 5 others bringing back Michael - Tom, Alex, Pickett, and two no-names.

That would mean there was only one Other per Lostie. 5 vs 5 is not very good odds.

picsel said...

hey guys, im back again for today. i just havent got the time lately for this lol. LOST has been great i though thes last two episodes. Nikki and Paulo's episode i liked. it had me straight back to series one where i was just sat there -knowledgeless saying "what?, huh? are they dead? shes not dead! ahhh her eyes are open!! ouch, that must have hurt having all that sand put on your open eyes...." you get what i mean... i liked it...I never minded nikki and paulo in the first place - but they hadnt done anything but their episode was good :) - and this week i really liked conman got conned :D cant wait till next week - more from the burried alive nikki and paulo? i dunno.

just thought i would post to say "im not dead :D" hehe (i havent got time because my GCSE's are in 6 weeks (big tests) and ive just got my new PS3 lol)

capcom said...

Picsel, great to see you back! We've needed you for your H-box theory! Good luck on your tests.

memphish said...

Picsel, you got us all set for the magic box epi. with all the Heironymous stuff. I hope you felt how in awe of you we all were after that episode. Good look on all the tests and mastering the PS3.

experimentalfilm! said...

i like the differentiating of the lists here .. seems like we havent seen much of jacobs .

was eko on jacobs list then ?

Twinkle said...

Dennis: Thanks for the compilation of list references.

memphish said...

Sara, I don't think we know whether or not Eko was on Jacob's list. You could put that in the list of mysteries you want revealed in the next 7 episodes. I can't believe there are only 7 left.

experimentalfilm! said...

ill put it in the list of mysteries-i-want-revealed-in-the-next-7-episodes-but-probably-wont-be-till-season-5 . :P

Lisa said...

Hi everyone--
Comcast took over Adelphia in my area- I dropped my internet service immediately. Jacked up rates, poor customer service (and I mean poor!!!), etc.... my parents have had it for years in Pgh, PA... no problems (other than being expensive). That might lend more support to the "bad when it takes over" arguement. Just my two cents

Great theories...love the speculation that Juliette can only tell the truth that she knows.... Ben may very well have led her to believe that she's been abandoned...then again, I loved the line about revealing the mark and someone saying "Surprise, that means she's really one of us!"

The wishful/goofy reveals... funny stuff! Thanks for the fun reads!

Dennis said...

experimentalfilm! said... i like the differentiating of the lists here .. seems like we havent seen much of jacobs . was eko on jacobs list then ?


I don't think so. He was one of the 4 people they tried to take on Day 2. According to Goodwin, he was a threat. I don't think they had a "good" list yet, but killing two of them on Day 2 probably kept him off of it. Let's just say forgiveness isn't one of thier strong suits. :)

ANA: Why do you think they take some of us and not the others?
GOODWIN: That first night they took the strongest of us -- our quiet friend -- three other guys. They're all athletic, tough, threats.
ANA: They didn't take you.
GOODWIN: Guess they changed their plan after two of them got killed.

Ange said...

memphish you are killing me with the Sawyer bun.<----THAT is the big reveal I want out of the final episoded...don't know if I mentioned it;).

Also, I am totally making my students read their spelling words in a pirate voice tomorrow!

codysmom said...I also think the whole series from the Other's point of view would be very interesting!

THAT is a very Stephen King thing to do, I wouldn't be surprised to see more of that next season.

ib4uc said...

Great comments everyone. My internet connection went down yesterday and I just got it back. Needless to say, I've been lost (no pun intended) without you guys but I finally caught up.

I agree that there are 2 dossiers also -- whatever info the Others gathered about Eko was only him as a priest, nothing from his druglord days. Smokey gathered his whole past, both good and bad.

Loved the "what I want to see revealed in the next 7 episodes" was great also. LOL

maven said...

Wow, you guys have been busy today! Leave for a few hours and it's comments galore!

Shakey said (I remember you, too): 1: Juliet: Tying together a lot of opinions here I think she's more like a sleeper agent than a plant/mole - she IS undercover but does not know she is: Ben's set everything up to have her infiltrate the camp...

This would go with Juliette telling everyone that Ben's a master manipulator and loves to play mind games. I do think, though, that she does know a little more of the "plan" than she will let on.

Capcom said: I also agree that it's possible that Christian could have been fake-dead. Why would TPTB throw in that weird sentence where CS talks about some mysterious way to make someone look dead?

I agree that it was a very strange way to offer help to your esranged daughter. I like that Christian faked his death and is a higher up with Dharma or the Others. (Maybe he's "him"!) Could be why Jack wasn't on Jacob's list.

Brianne said: I think that Rousseau is off following the others to where ever they are going in their gas masks.

I think she's following wherever Alex is going.

Thanks for all the funny reveals. If only they do reveal these!

And Picsel: Good luck on your tests. We really missed you when we heard about the magic box!

capcom said...

Wow Maven, that would be a great reason for Jack not to be on Jacob's(CS's) list...sort of a, "Keep my son out of this" type thing.

But I kind of now think that CS might not be Jacob, since Jules said that they know who his mother and father are. If CS was that special, Jack might not have gotten the ratty treatment that he's gotten irrespective of the surgery. But then again, I suppose there could be plenty of arguments towards the other way as well.

maven said...

Capcom: Well, we're not really sure what really gets one on Jacob's list. Who really knows his definition of "good" means. Maybe he puts people through various tests to deem them worthy of getting on the list. Maybe that's what he was doing with Jack.

Ange said...

capcom said...If CS was that special, Jack might not have gotten the ratty treatment that he's gotten irrespective of the surgery.

Claire was kidnapped and drugged while pregnant...that seems kinda ratty, and she is a Shepard for all intensive purposes. If CS is Jacob or him, I am not sure he would act or react to either of them, until the time came for it to be necessary. Also, I agree with Maven, good is a very open concept and seems to change daily on the island.

Darkaardvark said...

I've managed to put together a soundclip of the Monster/crash similarities that I heard. I had to record it through the speakers (I've got the seasons from iTunes) so the quality if fairly low. If this interests you and you own the DVDs I suggest listening there, you'll hear a much better quality recording.

So, the clip: The opening seconds of "The Other 48 Days" where the tail section hits the water. Note in particular the "elephant roar," It gets somewhat caught up with the water noise (less so in the originial) but it is quite distinctive. Then there is a pause, followed by the appearance of the Smoke Monster in "The 23rd Psalm." You hear it make the noise two times along with its other noises.

Take a listen here and decide for youself: wwww.freewebs.com/darkaarvark/MonsterSounds.mp3

Sayid'sgirl said...

This is from mempish's post

Juliet That him? Shephard?
Ben Yes.
Juliet He's cute. Why are we doing this? Shephard will never agree to do the surgery.
Ben No, I can convince him to do it.
Juliet How?
Ben Same way I get anybody to do anything. I find out what he's emotionally invested in...and I exploit it.
Juliet So, what, we just grab all 3 of them...Ford and Austen too.
Ben No, they need to come to us.
Juliet And how do we make that happen?
Ben Michael of course.

When Juliet asks So, what we just grab all 3 and Ben says no. It sounds like to me for what ever reason they don't want to go into the jungle any farther than they need to. That's why he exploits what Michael is emotionally invested in which is Walt and sends the message with the computer. When they capture Michael he's a good ways away from the hatch. They get Michael to get Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley close to the Pala Ferry so they can zap them with the darts and carry they to the Ferry.

Darkaardvark said...

The sounds from 23rd Psalm reminded me of something else- so I went back and went to a certain part of the pilot- the "creaking" sound of the Monster is from the part of the wing that fell down.

There's other stuff, too. I don't have time right now to go through and document it all, but I'm pretty sure that most of Smokey's sounds come from things that it has "heard" on the Island. I don't know about the taxi-ticker, that might be different

takes a village said...

jgz350, Happy Birthday!
(Mine is Nov.16)
Only 7 episodes left? Man, tptb better hurry,they've got a whole lot of 'splainin to do.

Ange said...

darkaardvark I totally hear what you are talking about. You think Smokey is imitating? That is an interesting idea.

chucklez3 said...

fenris: "last we saw sayid...." umm, sure. i used him as an example cuz of military background, wiseguy. what about jack and the ran-sacked house? you know what i mean.

plus, SOMEONE said they "all" were gonna' have them on cuz of where they're "going". umm.....doubt it. but i won't say NO.

Fenris said...

Sayid's Girl said "Sawyer had her pegged. I don't look for him to trust her no matter what."

Very true. Not that Sawyer trusts anyone but both him and Kate are going to be the loudest voices against her. Probably why she tried the handcuff stunt.

Also I think if this Sun baby trouble requires Juliets help then the other Lostaways will get on board more with her. Which could lead to Kate and Sawyer being kinda isolated. With them both being kinda outcast/loner types I can totally see that happening, which would push forward their romance (Especially if Ange is right about Kates knockedupness).

Twinkle Said - "The spiders have nothing to do with the monster"

I posted a soundfile on the first page, check it out HERE. It is the spider sound right next to the sound the monster made just before it went to attack Eko. Back to back you can tell it's the same noise, just at a different pitch. It's true they could have a limited sfx source, but I personally don't think so. Have a listen and see what you think.

Also here is another possibility. What if that is the spiders noise and the smoke monsters but they aren't the same thing and smokey wasn't there. What if the smoke monster has an organic part (like I said it may do before) and that it has parts of it that are from the spiders DNA, maybe it has some shark and polar bear as well?

Memphis said "will Ben approach her at some point in the future and make her another deal to sell out the Losties?

Totally my suspicion (I said so on the first page for this episode and in my blog). I don't think she's a plant, but we know for a fact that Ben knows how to pull her strings or she wouldn't have been an other in the first place.

lord lephuronn - I like the theory about Smokeys sensing and the fence. Nice one.

"However, let us read into the effects of the MEdusa spider showing up so soon after Christian's inferred you can LOOK dead and draw from it that TPTB are saying he's faked it and is very much alive" I actually suggested the zombie drug right after the episode where Christian inferred that even before we saw the spiders, so after already being suspicious of that I am now feeling pretty confident they intended that theory. Of course whether it's genuinely happened or a red herring and playing with us through their regular "Zombie" talk on the podcasts I couldn't say.

Okay it's late and this is taking to long, so gonna leave it there for now. Good to see it still being so busy here on the third post of the week!

Fenris said...

Chuckles - It's all possibilities. But don't forget they were all captives and I can't see them putting up a great struggle. There has been a lot of possibilities suggested for the ransacked looking house. Personally I like the theory that Jack just had a temper tantrum. Lol.

I don't think I'm that much of a "wiseguy" for countering the Sayid thing, you brought him up. I was just trying to imagine how he could have put up a fight and couldn't see it. Now, be nice.

chucklez3 said...

well let's see.......kate tried. and jack wasn't "tied". so yes he could. and as a prior marine........trust me. doesn't matter. you WILL try.

chucklez3 said...

as for you question about how many guards they have on captives.....ummm, how many guards do we normally see??


remember how many ARMED people it took to take in our four (including Hurley) last season??

exactly.

and how many did it take to "best" sayid, jin and sun?

again......exactly. it's called precautions for a reason. expect the unexpected, etc.

and they had their gear on cuz they were leaving. but before leaving, they had to gas them.

here's a scenario for you. if you have a certain number of men or women assigned as "militants", then they will ALWAYS BE SO.

so, no matter what the situation, they will always be involved with such situations.

Fenris said...

You know, I'm not even going to continue this debate with you. It's pointless. But if you want I'll meet you outisde (yes, on the main blog page) in 5 minutes and we can THROW DOWN!

Lol.

chucklez3 said...

??

ummm......yeah......internet threats....*yawn*.

i didn't "challenge" you. i defended my theory. nothing more.

so keep your childish threats tucked away.

no need to make idle threats.

not that you want this anyway. "lol"

Fenris said...

Um, for someone called "Chuckles" you have issues with understanding humour.

Dude, get a life.

chucklez3 said...

anyway........not in the mood for the antics. got enough of that in real life right now.

later.

Fenris said...

and don't forget it was you that started with the childish name calling. Sheesh.

Now in case your having trouble undertanding let me write this in the Rachel Font.

I DONT WANT TO DISCUSS IT ANY MORE.

That was the whole point of my last two posts (prior to my undestanding humour one).

So can we please now DROP IT?

chucklez3 said...

understanding humor? 1st of all, did i say i graduated from clown college? no. it's a screen name.

it was also my call-sign in the marine corps. i have a sense of humor. but you're just being troublesome.

and accompanied with me being currently in a bad mood = bad combo.

and just so we're all set straight....it's chuckleZ...there's a "Z" on the end. not an "S".

PHenris............sheesh (that was a joke, too....sorta)..

later.

bigdog said...

fenris -"Very true. Not that Sawyer trusts anyone but both him and Kate are going to be the loudest voices against her. Probably why she tried the handcuff stunt."

Which may make sun and Jin want to accept her to be against sawyer

fenris - (yes, on the main blog page) - i thought it was funny

Fenris said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chucklez3 said...

i didn't take it out on you. as said before, i defended my posts (theories) and if you can't accept them for what they are, don't read them.

it was a poor attempt at a joke (the "z" thing----same for the phenris deal). hmmm.........have some of your own medicine??

and the marine thing was used to "explain" why i state what i do about "tactics".

get a grip

chucklez3 said...

and dropping it. gotta go.

enjoy.

Fenris said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fenris said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fenris said...

*ahem* Sorry about that folks. Got a bit messy there for a second. Normal service will be ressumed in 5...4...3...2...1

Bigdog - Good theory. Sun obvious hates Sawyer and with good reason. I think all the pressure to keep it together is going to be with our resident camp councellor Hurley. He's already tried to calm things and rehabilitate Sawyer and I reckon he'll be the one that has to try and stop Kate and Sawyer getting too split from the group. Having said that, he was there when they were taken so perhaps he'll be against Juliet more as well.

Brianne said...

wow...looks like i missed something interesting...

maven said...

Glad I was actually reading a book for a while! LOL

Sun may be pissed at Sawyer right now since Charlie's reveal, but in the end, I think she will be loyal to any Lostie over Juliette. She might be torn since I do think Juliette will be instrumental in helping Sun in a pregnancy crisis. Perhaps, that help will be what wins more Losties over to trust Juliette. But I don't think Kate, Sawyer and Sayid will ever trust her.

Brianne said...

maven...And I wouldn't think that after the look Sayid and Kate exchanged at the end of Left Behind that they won't be talking to each other about what's going on the whole why back, while Jack and Juliet are off in their own little world.

maven said...

Brianne: That look between Sayid and Kate is interesting. It's like they're almost questioning Jack's reasoning in accepting Juliette...how can he trust her? Why doesn't Sayid even ask her if she knows where 50 people vanished to? It's so frustrating at times...I just want to shake these people into asking the most simple questions!

WV: whozo!

experimentalfilm! said...

in response to the fenris/chucklez3 mini-throwdown:

"should i get a ruler ?"

:P

Amused2bHere said...

Happy Lost Day, LoCos!

Belated birthday wishes to Jgz360!

and a late but sincere sympathy message to Thrasher. I am truly sorry for the loss of your uncle, and I am praying for you and your family during this difficult time.

Death sucks.



My take on a few items:
I like the Juliet as a sleeper agent, she really thinks she was abandoned but in reality Ben has other plans he didn't clue her in. For her "own safety", knowing how Sayid can read deception. But boy will she be pissed when Ben comes to retrieve her! I hope she slaps him. Hard.

Kate pregnant? we'll see...
Sun miscarry? no way. We have to find out who's the baby daddy. If it's bald it's not Jin's!

The "why didn't Tom snatch J/K/S when he had them surrounded at the line?" question: If Tom had grabbed those three (and the Leader of the Losties included), you would expect Locke to either protest loudly or rustle up a posse to go and rescue the trio, and don't you know that any manipulation Ben had planned for Jack would have been useless, Jack really NEVER would have consented. Ben is more subtle than that. He enjoys the mind games too much to just be straight (like just asking Jack!) or to be a bully and just grab them. It's part of Ben's game to make them think they are coming of their "free will", when they are really doing what he wants them too all along.

On the other hand, wasn't Michael's capture too recent for there to be any plan regarding using him to lure JackKateSawyer? So maybe Tom just didn't know they were going to be on a list, and he missed a golden opportunity...

LONG post, but then I was away for a few days.

Good Podcast, passafist and the goog, but please leave the singing to the professionals. You may hurt someone!

Fenris said...

It makes sense that Bens plans have to backfire at some point. So far he has consistantly through luck and manipulation managed to come out on top, time and time again.

Thinking of it, what we have is that Ben has just dumped off one challenge to his leadership and taken on another new one in the form of Locke.

It has been seriously hinted at that Lockes attitude could be a problem for Ben in the future which may mean he could need Juliet again as a way to help restore the balance. But that could serious backfire if she doesn't play along.

memphish said...

Happy Lost Morning LoCos!

Here's your Doc Jensen link for the day. It looks a bit spoilery, so I'm going to avoid it. Did anyone ever read Kristen yesterday?

Sara, great line up there! And that's all I'm going to say about that.

One final thing before tonight on the Juliet plant/mole/sleeper agent thing. As you all know, I do think Juliet is a plant (see earlier avatar), but I don't think her mission is to find out more about the LOSTies in terms of who they are; the Others think they know. I think she's there to find out what they are up to now and to keep them pinned down at their beach. I'll bet Juliet will be the one with the compelling reason they don't all move to Othersville for example.

Ben was surprised that Locke, Kate and Sayid found them. He tells Tom to find out how they found him. The LOSTies are more resourceful than Ben ever gives them credit for. Just telling them not to cross a line hasn't worked. The occasional appearance of Smokey hasn't worked. Telling them they can never come here hasn't worked. Maybe Juliet can finally keep them in place.

memphish said...

There's also a new video OLP out about Michael Giacchino and the music.

Dennis said...

The Official Lost video podcast is available on the Lost front page, or in the video section.

Codysmom said...

Happy Lost Day!!

I went ahead and read Doc Jensen's article. It is very spoilery! All I'll say is tonight is a must see episode-lots of answers, according to Doc.

Ange said...

memphish: have you listened to the OLP? Is it spoilery? It is probably safest to assume a yes on that one huh.

memphish said...

Ange, The OLP is a video OLP about how Michael Giacchino does the music. There is nothing spoilery in it and it's very informative and entertaining.

Sayid'sgirl said...

Morning LoCos
Happy Lost Day (again :) )
I thought all day yesterday was Wednesday and wished you Happy Lost Day yesterday.
Looking forward to the show tonight although I'm sure Sayid won't get to do what he needs to, to get information. But he's pulling his hair back and getting ready in my avatar. :)
I've bookmarked Doc Jensen and will read it after the show.

Codysmom said...

Love your avatar, sayid'sgirl!

Sayid'sgirl said...

Thanks! codysmom

Passafist said...

http://www.archive.org/download/TLCP19b/Finished19b_64kb.mp3'

The E-Mail Bonus EPisode is Live!

Codysmom said...

I've always been a Sayid fan:)

wv= vmgwvw
talk about trying to screw me up with the W's & V's!

Dennis said...

Happy Lost Day!

NEW POST!!!!

scoutpost said...

Happy LOST day everyone! Gosh life has been busy the past couple of weeks and I haven't been able to be on here. It's killing me- I miss you guys! Trying to keep up.... will catch you guys later.

Oh memphish I did see where you asked about Kristin's video from yesterday- I did listen to it. She read fan email questions to the cast- a little spoilery, but nothing major. They would answer things like, "yeah you'll find out blah blah blah when the sun/jin episode airs", or "you'll get the answer to that by the end of the season" kind of thing. Kind of like when they said we would find out if Jack and Claire were sibs, but wouldn't tell us if they were or not. So depends on how much you want to know about where the show is headed.
ok- now I'm going to catch up.

scoutpost said...

Ok caught up.

FWIW- re: the look Kate and Sayid exchanged at the end of last weeks show- I think they are going to be suspicious of Jack and his judgement or lack thereof. Wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have the same amount of followers as he did before since bringing Juliet back. And really- thank goodness for Sayid. I think someone else stated this once, but what and where would the Losties be without his skills and ability to read people?!

This is off topic but interesting: last night I was in Barnes and Noble picking up my LOST magazine and on one of the tables was a book named Buried Alive. Apparently there are numerous stories in history where people were declared dead and/or actually buried only to have them "come back to life". One story was about a very pregnant woman who "died" and was buried. The cemetary keeper thought he heard moans coming from the grave and thought it was a ghost (this was a few centuries ago). Turns out the "dead" woman had given birth to her baby. I think the baby was rescued- don't remember. And apparently in the 18th and maybe 19th century they started designing coffins with air holes and strings attached to bells that stayed above ground, so that if the buried person woke up they could ring the bell and be saved. Now how scary is that?!
Didn't buy the book, but it was pretty interesting in light of Paulo and Nikki. Too bad they didn't have a bell to ring. LOL