The ABC tag for tonight's episode says, "Sayid and Kate go in search of Locke to negotiate a peaceful deal when they discover that his hostage may be the key to getting off the island." Sounds pretty boring...but I doubt that we'll be bored.
Here's a little Valentine Treat from David A Dein and the Goog! It's a bonus episode of The Lost Community Podcast that includes excerpts of Episode 32 and 33 of The Devil's Advocate Podcast in which we discussed Lost! Have a question or comment e-mail the show at TLCpodcast@gmail.com or call 206-202-3512 .
*ADMIN ANNOUNCEMENT*
On February 12, Blogger notified us of the following update to their comment platform: "Posts with more than 200 comments have them split across multiple pages." From this point forward, this development should eliminate the need for "lag alleviation" posts. If there are more than 200 comments, click "Newer" to move to the next page.
Thursday, February 14, 2008
The Economist - Season 4, Episode 3
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Here is the updated reading list for the 
653 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 653 Newer› Newest»Oh, good catch Dig.
Thanks, capcom. (duh.. swiss flag)
Good stuff on Moriarty!
DiggityDirge said...
someone said: Now Desmond, also has gotten off the island. I really look forward to his flashforward?
That was me. I guess I was assuming Desmond got off the island because he went with Sayid in the helicopter
If 31 minutes is the time that elapsed between when the payload is launched and when it arrived, then why were both timers counting up? One should have had a fixed time on it, if that were the case.
Or maybe one of them was... I'll rewatch another time.
It's probably not worth harping on this issue so much, when there was so much that went on in the episode, but it's so interesting...
Did anyone catch the bearing of the helicopter and how it compares with Michael's bearing?
and kyle....why not? funny how hurley sought refuge at the asylum. and who shows up there???? the "bad guy".
yeah........i know what you mean, but i think it could go either way.
they didn't seem to put a lot of effort into "masking" the double-crosses in this episode. I think i saw through them all. I was texting amused2bhere the whole time. i also called the time differential and the bracelet.
and for the record, i stated two seasons ago that sayid was seeming more and more like a plant, than a soldier. some of the things he did were just retarded.
anyhoo....i have the flu. going to bed. i woke up and thought i'd drop a few lines.
Valentine's Day eerily has the abbreviated initials "V.D.". yikes. (is that why i have a fever)?? hahaha
But anyhoo.....maybe i'm cynical 'cause i don't much believe in love anymore. Or maybe, like most other things in the world, we (as a society) have perverted this day as well.
Talk to you guys later. Have a great evening.
why are my posts not showing up>???? ugh.
At first I was thinking Swiss Army knife, Codys. :-B
But it's the science part, Dark!
Feel better Chuck.
Didn't catch the bearing.
Chucklez, Blogger has changed the format. Go to the top and pick the newest posts.
if it is indeed a ship, the bearing would've more than likely changed since walt and michael. so really doesn't matter.
Whoa.... just getting used to this new blogger stuff. chucklez, look down at your lower right and it now says oldest/older. After 200 comments you get a new page now
i don't see that. i don't have that choice. ugh.
Chuck, go back and see what Dennis posted about it, either on this thread or at the end of the last one.
ah. gotcha. i'm caught up. okay, taking nyquil and off to bed.
LOL, between me and capcom, you should get the idea...
Chucklez, you can't give up on love on Valentine's Day! There's just something not right about that...
OK seriously, g'nite all! Can't wait to talk tomorrow!
I wonder how much time Ben and Sayid had together in the make-shift "jail" until Locke showed up with the iced tea? Do you suppose they struck a deal at that point?
anybody home?
OMG!
ok, that was really wierd. It took ten refreshes and then it brought me to the new page. This new feature bites :)
chucklez: Abaddon showed up at Santa Rosa, but he didn't seem to be there to harm Hurley. He wanted information about "them." "Are they still alive?" It wouldn't take much to learn if Jack, Kate, Sayid, and the other two were alive or not; they're famous.
Abaddon comes to Hurley because he thinks Hurley knows if a different group of people is still alive. I'm putting my money on the rest of the LOSTies and any/all remaining FF.
before bed, why don't you help us out and delete your duplicate posts Chuck
This episode was soooo mind-blowing and taking us into such a different and interesting direction.
Beginning to explain how time works differently on the island....
Double crosses all over the place....
Who or what really is the Oceanic 6?...Another LIST?......Who's Ben working for? (Himself or someone else). Who's The Economist?...Abaddon? Does Desmond get off the island if he's on the helicopter? How did Ben get Sayid to become an assassin for him?...what's he holding over his head/heart (Nadia?)... Who else is in the Bracelet Brigade? What's up with Ben's secret room? Obviously he's been coming and going for years.
Excuse my rambling...this is going to take quite a while to sort out!
I found it interesting that Sayid didn't mention to Locke or Ben that the F4 were definitely looking for Ben. I know Ben said that they are, but Sayid doesn't know that - he wasn't there.
memphish said... Daniel's experiment, was the timer the amount of time elapsed since they shot the rocket or the actual time?
It seemed to me to be the actual time, because he checked his watch first.
Re one more seat on the helicopter: When Sayid says they should take Naomi "home" instead of "to the ship", I thought that was weird.
I really should be going to bed, but I'm still trying to digest all this.
maven, yeah I thought it was weird saying "home". Sayid was acting strange the whole time about Naomi. It makes me think he knew something before about it all. Or maybe Ben gave him some info when he found out Sayid knows all about his hidden room and a deal was made to get Charlotte back. I'm not so sure the deal was trading Miles for Charlotte like Frank thought.
And whoever said they were disappointed in Hurley... I agree! Pretty lame, too, that Hurley calls out Sayid for being the guy who killed one of the others with his feet when just a few minutes before that Hurley ran over and killed one of the others with the VW van (speaking of S3 finale)
Okay, some initial observations:
*Ben knows some doctoring?
*Is Ben the boss...or is he working for someone?
*Finally, they're beginning to explain how time passes more slowly on the island. I'll leave all the math to the experts here, but the 31 min. time difference seems to lead to the fact that time move slower there. Could explain how Ben can go off island and not be missed.
*Could Ben be holding Nadia over Sayid's head/heart? What happened the last time when Sayid lead with his heart and not a gun?
*The Berlin connection from Find815 is explained.
*Who is The Economist? Is it Abaddon? Elsa's boss is someone who doesn't like technology (uses beeper), like Jacob.
*Frank and Dan seem to know the Widmore name when they exchange glances in the scene with Desmond.
*A lot of double crosses what with Elsa and Hurley.
*Who is (or was) Mr. Avellino? Why was he so scared of Sayid saying he was an O6?
*Kate feels slighted when Jack let's Juliet go to the beach instead of her.
*Locke seems very flustered when Jacob's Cabin isn't where it's supposed to be...within the ash circle.
*Who is RG? Who else has one of those bracelets?
*Miles had a lot of great lines: "She's hot and I dug her accent"..."Did these people have daycare?"...Oh, yeah, SHE gets a gun."
*Hurley's line after Miles calls him "Tubby": The ship sent us another Saywer. LOL
*So Ben's secret room indicates he's been off the island many times. I think DocArtz posted that the money was of Michael Faraday, and was last used in 2001. Why does Ben have old money?
*How did Locke convince Hurley to help him set a trap, when Hurley was doubting him re keeping Charlotte as a hostage?
*ANOTHER LIST?!?!?!?!
*Sayid seems very interested in Naomi's body.
*When Miles tells Frank to stay on the exact bearing, Frank thinks he's crazy.
*The ending...OMG!
just one point. The three on the helicopter are Frank, Sayid, and Naomi's dead body. Desmond is not on the helicopter even though he says the line about going to the ship. He may eventually go, but he is not on the helicopter when it leaves for the ship.
I hope everyone goes back and reads the first 200 comments. There were some good questions in there that I would like to see some debate on.
diggity: I beg to differ with you. Desmond is on the helicopter, sitting in the front next to Frank.
So Sayid is working for Ben...eliminating people left and right. Seems we have Ben vs Abaddon.
But what is Ben holding over Sayid to get him to become a cold-hearted assasin? Hurley's gone crazy, Jack's a distraught, addicted doctor, Sayid's a killer with a heart...only Kate seems at peace with the way things are.
It's getting late here (for me). I'll have to sleep on all this mind-blowing developments.
catching up on comments now...
I seriously laughed out loud with the whole "this little piggie" bit :D
As for the time anomaly... why doesn't communication with the outside world seem to be affected?
not sure if there is anything we can read into this, but I found Ben's constellation poster/map of the universe. Not sure that Ben's glowed in the dark
Morning LoCos. This is my first encounter with the new paginated comments. We'll see how that goes.
I'm working on a list of things in my head to discuss a little later this morning when I had more time, but I wanted to add a couple of things in response to the existing comments.
1) Desmond is on the helicopter in the front with Frank as Maven said.
2) Diggity Dirge's idea that the "he" Kate has to get back to in TTLG could be Ben is a good one and creepy beyond belief. The idea that Ben could be in the coffin is now much more plausible as well given all the aliases Ben already has. Did anyone see a Lantham passport in that drawer?
3) I too want to know what was up with Sayid and Naomi's body. When we first see him, I thought he was doing his prayers, something we hadn't seen in a while, but that didn't seem to be the case. Could it be that he has seen that bracelet before he saw it on Naomi? And why would a commando wear a bracelet? I guess the same reason Dan wore a tie.
4) One possible reference to Sayid and putting his heart before his gun could be in terms of how he ended up on 815 in the first place. Sayid staying to bury his friend is what landed him on the Island. I don't think that's what Ben is referring to, but I don't think we've seen what Ben is referring to either.
5) I haven't decided yet who the friends are Sayid is protecting - on or off Island friends. I think it could be both.
6) I think the reference to the bearing indicates to us that the Freighties have encountered Michael.
7) Locke with his tea reminded me of Mikhail.
BBL
There's a transcript of a deleted ghost whispering scene up at Doc Arzt. He also describes some other changes made to the episode from when he first saw it to last night, the key one being changing the time difference from 31 seconds to 31 minutes.
I find it odd that coming through the Island's "atmostphere" delayed the payload but didn't change where it was headed. Given the interference we've seen with the helicopter's why didn't the payload land more off target?
I continue to be disappointed in and irritated with Hurley, codysmom. Been saying that for three weeks now.
I will say, however, that he fooled me. My very first thought was "trap!" but Hurley lied so much better than he's usually able to, that I second-guessed myself.
Hurley is holding so much information right now. I just wanna slap him in the face like Charlie did.
If there is a time discrepancy between the "real" world and the island then wouldn't that hold true for radio transmissions also...when regina was counting down payload approach, wouldn't the payload and the radio xmission arrive at the same time...since we are talking about massive electromagnetic properties, I would think that radio frequencies would be affected also....is this inconsistency or on purpose...
Morning All
Still trying to get my head wrapped around this episode.
To me Sayid wanting to take Naomi back to the ship was just respecting the dead. He felt she should be put to rest properly. (and it didn't look like anyone was going to bury her on the island) Like memphish said he ended up on flight 815 because he wanted to make sure his friend had a proper burial.
After thinking about it over night a seeing next weeks promo. I think Kate's "him" could be Ben, Abaddon or some sort of law enforcement.
And if it's Ben he couldn't be in the coffin.
memphish said:
4) One possible reference to Sayid and putting his heart before his gun could be in terms of how he ended up on 815 in the first place. Sayid staying to bury his friend is what landed him on the Island. I don't think that's what Ben is referring to, but I don't think we've seen what Ben is referring to either.
I agree that we haven't seen what Ben is referring to yet. I think it may be what ever happens once he reaches the freighter.
carol
Thanks for the link to "Ben's poster" I wanted to take a look at that. I know it's been in the show before but I've never had a good look at it.
I laughed about Sawyer's piggies too. And they wouldn't have to carry Ben they could just drag him.
That's it for now. I'm going to re read some posts and get my thoughts in order.
Ok great episode but i felt lost (no pun intended) so many times.
sometimes i feel like i am not smart enough to be a true fan of the show.
that said good thought kyle. the more we keep hearing about the O6 protecting people and Jack wanting to go back makes a lot of sense.
erich - Ben is kaiser soze. that is the best line of the night.
love sayid's smooth player side.
Also a little confused. Was the woman that Sayid shot the target. or did we see a flash forward and then a flashback of the flash forward.
basically is her boss dead already, if so why was Sayid still with her
Good morning! I still feel like I wasn’t actually watching Lost last night, sheesh!
Maven said…Who is (or was) Mr. Avellino? Why was he so scared of Sayid saying he was an O6?
I really got the feeling, and others posted this last night, that the scene on the golf course was after Sayid killed Ilsa. If that’s the case then Sayid and Ben’s conversation about the people on the “list” knowing he was coming for them might explain why he was so freaked out that it was Sayid. It really doesn’t explain why he freaked at the mere mention of the O6 though.
So Ben's secret room indicates he's been off the island many times. I think DocArtz posted that the money was of Michael Faraday, and was last used in 2001. Why does Ben have old money?
Don’t we all have old money in our pockets? Having old money might not be the issue here, but rather that he has the money at all and in so many currencies. It proves (along with the passports) that he has been either leaving the island currently or in the past. It makes me wonder though, if he can come and go, why didn’t he just leave to have his back opperated on?
Sayid seems very interested in Naomi's body.
I got that feeling last night as well. The way he kept looking at her and almost worrying over her made me think that he knew her already and for sure in my mind seemed to recognize that bracelet. Maybe my mind is seeing things that weren’t there in combination with the flash forwards, but I wonder if Sayid isn’t having mind/time loops like Desmond.
Memphishg said…Locke with his tea reminded me of Mikhail.
YES! I thought that too, because I always thought that tea scene (I made it myself) with Mikhail was odd soemhow.
The time thing has me spinning, and I really liked the 19 years idea that was discussed last night (but I don't think I can buy it)...but I just don't think we have our answer on the time yet, just a hint that we are supposed to think along those lines.
I can't remember and am too lazy to go look, but did Elsa and her boss know Sayid's boss's identity or not?
Doc Jensen's LOL recap.
Morning has broken indeed.
Just finished catching up on the comments, and there's some great stuff in there.
The more I think about Faraday's rocket experiment, the more it reminds me of that parking lot scene early in Back to the Future, when Doc Brown puts a clock around Einstein's neck and sends him off in the Delorean — then he comes back and the clock is however further ahead.
Maybe it's not that time on the island moves faster than it does off-island. Maybe the island is actually ahead half an hour in the future. (It's possible it hasn't always been that way. Maybe at one point it was way more, or less.)
I don't know how that would effect radio transmissions, helicopters, etc. Maybe there's a fixed rip in the space-time continuum at the bearings Ben gave Michael, which is likely the same route the sub took. Could that be the reason Juliet had to be drugged before she made the trip? So she wouldn't notice the time difference?
I'm also digging that Ben could be the one in the coffin. It fits the pseudonym, the fact that no one went to his funeral. It also jives with the theory that Jack's suicide attempt was because he figured whoever was in the coffin had been his only chance to get back to the island. I'd been working with the idea it was Michael, but Ben makes even more sense. He'd know exactly how to get back, and probably would be quite happy to not offer Jack much help.
Either that, or the coffin person was an O6 member who was killed by The Economist's group (made to look like a suicide), meaning Ben's "protection" has run out and Jack realizes it's just a matter of time until the other five are killed as well. (Not sure how I feel about this theory yet.)
Has anyone considered the fact that perhaps Faraday was in a wheel chair off the island? This would explain the crying while watching the television. Now that we know his scientific background maybe he had heard rumors of the islands existence. It would also explain why they threw him off the helicopter.
So did the bracelet say R.G. which is what I thought it said last night or R.C. which is what Doc Jensen says? And can anyone think of an R.C.?
Also, just to confirm the 2:45:03 is Island time and the 3:16:22 is Rocket time.
Just a few thoughts. More to come as I continue to digests this episode.
I didn’t see a cap of it at DarkUFO but one of the passports was for New Zealand.
It’s not only the fact that Ben has been leaving the island often but he’s been going all over the world.
Why? How important is he?
Naomi was talking to Minkowski, Miles wanted to talk to him but Regina wouldn’t let him she said he wasn’t there. Dan wants to talk to Regina and Frank tells him to hang up right away if Minkowski gets on the phone. Is there a power struggle on the ship? Is Minkwoski Ben’s spy?
The whole time thing is over my head. But I did find it interesting that in the enhanced Season 3 finale that they said according to the iteration on Danielle’s message they had been on the island 91 days. So that makes me think 91 days island time but how many days outside world time?
What will happen with Desmond when he gets to the ship? He’s not part of the Oceanic passengers. Why didn’t Frank put up an argument about Desmond coming with him?
MoreLostThanU, first, great screen name. Secondly, no I didn't consider that Faraday may be in a wheel chair in his flash. That's an interesting notion, but doesn't Abaddon's picture of him show him standing up? Also, I don't think even Miles would throw someone who couldn't walk out of a helicopter hoping that once he landed he could walk. And finally, I think Dan who has trouble with keeping secrets, sort of like Hurley, would have said something.
It looked like RG to me too Memphish.
memphish
I don't know why doc has R.C. because I went frame by frame last night it says R.G.
Yes that is the correct time for each.
Memphish, thanks, they wouldn't throw a guy off a helicopter in a wheelchair unless they knew he would be able to walk on the island. Also, we've seen Locke walking off of the island before his "accident" so it's possible that it's an old picture.
One other thought...Ben recruited Jack's dad to fake his death knowing that the plane would crash. I thought of this because I was thinking back to the "buried alive" episode with the spider. Now that we know Ben has left the island on many occasions who knows how far his influence goes.
So for the last hour and a half I've been wading through things including my muddled mind, and I'm still so confused I'm not sure where to go.
But here's a few things.
I'm now guessing that it's Ben not the Freighties who get the Oceanic 6 off the Island. I also won't be surprised if we don't see how that happens until the very end of this season. I also think that's why it will only be Oceanic survivors who get off and why there is to be no mention made of an Island. As for the fate of the Freighties I think either Sayid and the rest of the 6 kill the Freighties in exchange for their release by Ben or that Sayid, Desmond, etc. who are headed to the boat navigate the boat into the Island's sphere of influence and strand it there either by wrecking it or by changing it's ability to head out at 325 from the Pala Pier to escape its pull.
I'm also now wondering how many "devil deals" Sayid will make to bring us up to the point where Ben Linus, DVM is treating his Sawyer-like bullet wound. Last night he clearly made a deal with Locke (not Ben) to exchange Miles for Charlotte and I'm also betting to leave Kate behind without her knowledge.
The time thing confuses me to no end, so for now I'm trying to forget it. :D
Memphish,
Good thoughts. I couldn't agree more with the theory about Ben getting them off the island. We don't know what the conversation was between Ben, Locke, and Sayid. All we know is Sayid made a deal with Locke and Ben and showed up with Charlotte.
Let's not forget that even though it appears that Ben is Locke's prisoner that in the end they both want the same thing. They both want to protect the island.
memphish said:
I'm now guessing that it's Ben not the Freighties who get the Oceanic 6 off the Island. I also won't be surprised if we don't see how that happens until the very end of this season. I also think that's why it will only be Oceanic survivors who get off and why there is to be no mention made of an Island.
That's the way my thinking is going too. He's never stopped being the puppet master.
I suspect that time passes at the same rate both on and off the island. How could Daniel and Regina have a normal conversation (or Charlie and Penny, for that matter) if it were otherwise?
Maybe "lost" time only occurs when an object approaches the island, and the amount of lost time may depend on what trajectory the object takes.
is at all possible that regina is lying about countdown?
dig - I caught that on the rewatch too! Sayid has sold his soul - - to protect his friends. Or at least that's what I got out of the exchange.
I guess I better go back and read the 256 posts before I post anything else. I decided to blog before I came over here this morning and I may never catch up. :)
Morning all after a sleepness night!
Hubby asked why I didn't sleep well, and I said I was thinking of LOST theories all night! He thinks I'm insane! LOL
At least I'm not the only one who is so confused and confounded which way the story is going! I love it, but I'm confused. I don't understand the science behind the time thing, but I love it.
I think we're witnessing a giant chess game between Ben and Abaddon (who may be the Widmore conglomerate). Everyone and everything has been manipulated since day one. A crazy theory is that Sayid was a plant from the beginning...maybe the leading with his heart instead of a gun was when he got involved with Shannon.
I also thought the bracelet said RC and not RG. Even in the screencaps, I still think so. I also thought Sayid might have known Naomi in the past. But I don't get the bracelet connection between Elsa and Naomi.
Agree with Memphish, that the bearing that Dan tells Frank not to stray from in leaving the island is the same one given Michael. That's how he knows what to use. That would put Michael and Walt on the freighter...something that Ben planned from the beginning.
Also, Ben in the coffin is beginning to sound like a good idea. We know he uses alias and has the passports to prove it. We also know everyone hates him and probably feels he's responsible for all that's gone on. With his power, money, influence, anything could have been printed in the paper obit (although one would think he would wanted to keep it hush-hush). Maybe Ben's enemies (Abaddon, Widmore, The Economist, etc) set his suicide up, and when people found him, it was newsworthy. Would Jack have known the alias name of Lantham?
That's it for now...I don't know if we'll all ever figure this one out! LOL
I suppose Regina could be lying, but I believe that this "lost time" clue, along with the "light scattering" remark from the previous episode are supposed to be legitimate hints to the audience about the true nature of the island.
Is everyone here convinced that the bracelets are the same? The screencaps I saw on DarkUFO's site aren't conclusive to me.
Looking at the inscription on the bracelet again, I guess I can see that it could be a "C". That scribe on the end of the C's engravement (I forget what that's called) is not really as prominent and flourished as a G's would be.
BlueHeron, I don't think the bracelets are the same -- Naomi's looks silver and Elsa's gold to me. But they are similar.
Maven, I thought about Sayid and Shannon too. The last time Sayid followed his heart on-Island, it pretty much led to Shannon's death.
I'd kind of like to see Sayid take out Ben now, though he seems to rely on guns, not staged hangings. If it's Ben, not Oceanic, really funding the O6's hefty settlements I think Jack could know an alias that was putting money into his bank account. Still doesn't explain the teenage son, but a passport with address as NY could explain that.
blue - your probaly right, i just find myself not trusting anything that i see anymore.
There were also a couple things I took away from the enhanced version of "Confirmed Dead" (not to digress or anything):
What is the purpose of the woman with the crying Dan being his caregiver and not his wife? Is he really a headcase that needs a caregiver?
The pop-ups really wanted viewers to realize that the new characters names were taken from real scientists having to do with electro-magnetism and other things that would relate to what's going on with the island. Now we know they were and we've gone to wiki and researched them all. But the casual viewers might have been oblivious, and they wanted to stress this when a new character entered the show.
maven
You're right. I looked at it again. It does say R.C. I did look closely at it last night and even wrote down R.G. but I literally had a screaming head ache last night and I made a mistake.
blueheron13
I thought the bacelets were similar last night, but after looking at the screen shots at DarkUFO I don't think they are.
Maybe he was just remembering Noaomi, another woman who died because of Ben. I think Ben is manipulating Locke without his knowledge.
Wouldn't it be something is Ben isn't the bad guy that we all think he is? That Sayid is working with him because he found this out. That in the end Ben is a hero in this story. Just a thought.
Should we assume RC is a double first name and not a first and last name since it starts out N, not ND? I think Dr. Eyeliner must be Ricky Chuck to Naomi. Or its Ricky Grevais.
memphish
I want Sayid to take out Ben and I don't much care how he does it.
I feel so sad for my favorite character. He had seemed to find redemption on the island and moved beyond what he had been. And now Ben has trapped him into doing things he said he would never do again and he hates it.
Oh and I don't know which episode breaks my heart more this one or Charles in TTLG.
I know i got a few details wrong, but i was mostly right. The payload coming an hour late pretty much confirmed my theory that time passes slower on the island. frank never had a chance to respond to jack saying its only been ninety days. But it is possible that the redsox have won it twice by the time frank makes it to the island. The time lag also explains why walt got older so fast and daniel telling frank to use the exact same bearings seems to confirm that ben really let mike and walt leave because he also gave them specific coordinates to leave... Ben's drawer full of passports sort of explains why he aged so mmuch because he has logged so much time off the island.MY question is, is ben the boss of the freighter crew or does he just have a mole on there and the list of people sayid is killing in the future just people like the freighter people that have knowledge of the island or people that are bad for the island and ben is trying to change history. It would seem that if ben isnt the boss of the freighter then its is in fact ben that has an arraigngment with oceanic and bartered the oceanic 6's escape?
Well, I showed hubby the screencap of the bracelet and he immediately said it was a "G" and pointed out the faint line across the bottom of the C which makes it a G. I could barely see it, but it's there. So I have to say it's RG and not RC.
heres one of my biggest question about last nights show, waas sayid reffering to shannon when he said ben already used love to recruit him or was he reffering all the way back to nadia, because the way their was that weird stuff in the alley with nadia last season with charlie, it wouldnt surprise me if nadia works for ben, or was sayid reffering to some kind of manipulation by ben that we havent seen happen yet?
2Costa: Like your idea that Ben's List is of people who have knowledge of the island. And they must be eliminated to keep it safe. Does that mean the O6 people are in danger of also being eliminated? Can they all be trusted to keep their secret and their end of whatever deal was made? We see that unraveling. However, if it is Ben in the coffin, why would Jack still feel the need to go back?
if jack had contact with ben i dont think hed be flying oceanic every week to get back on the island, because ben knows where it is. i tend to think that jack wouldnt have asked kate if she went to the funeral if it was ben, I wonder what the deal is with minkowski and why he didnt take miles call last week or frank said to hang up if he answered?
im starting to wonder if jacobs cabin was ever real or a smokey induced hallucination. I think its ben way of getting rid of hugo for whatever reason. In the same way that ben feared losing his primacy to locke when locke heard jacob, you could tell locke was resentful that hurley had seen the cabin, but that he lno longer could find it. One thing we do know is that the ring of ash around the cabin did no keep the cabin or its inhabitants fixed within the ring
the way its seems its gonna play out is that jack will somehow convince kate to leave with him and thats why she is not really on board with going back. I think that kate may be with Nate fillion(cop husband) in the future, cause i dont see sawyer leaving the island. I also think it could still be mike in the coffin or locke
E.J. Sharkington said...
Here's the big thing with this theory... in this ratio of 72 to 1 time-wise
So Regina took about 26 seconds to get her payload to target. And we know it didn’t arrive for some time. When they compared the clocks I assumed there was a 31 minute difference over roughly 3 hrs by what he said. Do you get the 72 to 1 by comparing 31 minutes to 26 seconds? Also, I couldn’t quite figure out which place time was moving faster – on island or off – guess it was moving faster off island.
Diggety said. . .Did Kate stay voluntarily or or she a psuedo prisoner. If she did really stay it's kind of messed up how people keep scewing over Jack after he did so much to help them all.
Jack kind of played that wrong if he wanted to be sure and hold onto her I think. Sending her back to Sawyer after reminding her that Sawyer will protect her didn’t seem altogether wise based on his previous experience in that little triangle. That said, she can’t be too much of a prisoner – she was armed with a gun and Sawyer didn’t seem to be armed with anything but his good looks and charm (devastating as that combination can be). However, I’m sort of thinking that had she tried to leave, she wouldn’t have been allowed to.
Carol Dunstan said...
catching up on comments now...I seriously laughed out loud with the whole "this little piggie" bit :D
I forgot about that one – loved that.
memphish said...
2) Diggity Dirge's idea that the "he" Kate has to get back to in TTLG could be Ben is a good one and creepy beyond belief. The idea that Ben could be in the coffin is now much more plausible as well given all the aliases Ben already has. Did anyone see a Lantham passport in that drawer?
I had this knocking around in the back of my mind as well. Although, I’m starting to wonder if Jack knows about Sayid’s extracurricular activities and feels responsible for unleashing him on this unsuspecting list of people. Probably not, but it’s a thought. . .
Ange said...
I really got the feeling, and others posted this last night, that the scene on the golf course was after Sayid killed Ilsa. If that’s the case then Sayid and Ben’s conversation about the people on the “list” knowing he was coming for them might explain why he was so freaked out that it was Sayid. It really doesn’t explain why he freaked at the mere mention of the O6 though.
Me too. I got the idea I was watching Alias between the assassin angle and the feeling that the first flash forward was actually after the main flash forward action. I can see them turning Kate into a bit of an assassin, now that I think of it.
I liked this flash forward much better. I mean, sure Sayid’s turned into a cold-hearted killer but at least he has a purpose. I was afraid they were all going to turn out to be mental patients.
So, here’s a quandary I didn’t see mentioned. Sayid is supposed to be the military strategist - Sayid has Kate on his side, right? And as far as they know, the barracks are either empty or filled with Locke and Co. Why didn’t he send in Kate for reconnaissance – posing as if she was coming back for Sawyer? I mean, if Locke can use Sawyer against Kate – couldn’t Sayid use Kate against Sawyer? Or does Sayid really trust no one.
Or as I’ve seen mentioned above, have Ben and Sayid been playing for the same team this whole time? Ben went with Locke and Sayid with Jack and this was just a ruse for them to meet up again?
i think that the forces out to harm the island know there is something weird about the oceanic six, thats why abbadon went to see hurley in the mental institute. I think its becoming clear that its bens group vs. abbadons group. I think its possible that abbadonn started out bens off island boss and ben double crossed him and took steps to make the island unfindable. The ben betraying abbadon theory seems to jive with the way ben ppput all of his recruited others in harms way over the seasons because they would be more loyal to abbadon
ok angela suggested I post this so here goes..the time thing has to do with E=Mc2 watch this video and you'll see the realtionship
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ6N85lNgHY&feature=related
Time on the ship- is real time..the voice transmission is real time..rocket leaves in real time..goes through time travel and gets there AFTER the voice transmission..Daniel's clocks are off...the island is different time ..so I saw this video which could imply that the island is a small item moving in a time vortex.
My suggestion is don't hung up on the actual amount of time...whatever it is...you'll get what I mean when you see this video about a time machine being built and used in experiments so here goes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRWwI61so5Q
also new clue regarding Frank on Yahoo7 official lost site..Who is Frank? Also Kate has more info...won't spoil...go to Lost the untold stories on yahoo uk...two sneak peeks on my local station WMUR-TV, manchester, NH posted last night..could be spoiler
2costa - I don't see Sawyer leaving either. But my reasoning is probably flawed. My thought was that if they really plan to bring Jack back to the island, SOME of the main characters need to still be there. And while I don't think Jack would go back for Sawyer alone, I could maybe see Jack eventually convincing Kate to go back if that's one of the incentives. (If they intend for her to end up with Sawyer) I could also see them killing Sawyer (much as I hate to imagine such a thing) and having Kate eventually go back to avenge his death because the spectre of his ghost looms between her and future Jack (if they intend her to end up with Jack).
i believe ben is ifn fact working with hawkings to either change or protect the timeline. I think last nights episode also gives credance to the theory that ben is still in control and not as down and out as a lot of people think.. do you think ben really had a trading places-esque 1 dollar wager with locke
maven said:
Well, I showed hubby the screencap of the bracelet and he immediately said it was a "G" and pointed out the faint line across the bottom of the C which makes it a G. I could barely see it, but it's there. So I have to say it's RG and not RC.
Then maybe my eyes weren't as tired as I thought last night.
Or maybe your husband and I have similar ideas on that C/G
I'm sure we'll get an enhanced episode to let us know. :)
I think we will see how corrupt dharma is..Ben may be the avenger and Sayid his crime organization. Watch Kate!
well theres 40 plus people still on the island assuming not too many more die. It looking more and more like the fantastic four were recruited by ben whether they knew it or not. The cabin being gone is like an insurance policy for locke to keep ben alive, locke will want to know how to find it again. the way that ben seems to be in total control in the future seems to also point to the fact that ben has to know what the smoke monster is, he just wasnt willing to reveal it yet. Like with my when did sayid actually start getting recruited question. At some point ben will reveal how he has been orchestrating everthing to sayid down to the fac tthat kelvin trained him in iraq, which also seems to point to the fact that ben of course knew where the swan was because he prolly put kelvin in there and recruited him
that bracelet on elsa seeme to point to the fact that she works for the same employer as naomi, so that would seem to be abbadon because hes the one that put together the team. It seemed like a very simuliar bracelet, and elsa speaking in a foreign language on here phone reminded my of ms klugh and mikhail at the flame. Which seems to point to what i was saying about ben formerly working with the freightys boss, and mikhail being so mad about bens not giving him the code and jamming the signal. So in my mind klugh and mikhail are more loyal to abbadons group than the island
Thanks for the Youtube vids Tallone!
a side note naomis and elsa's bracelet remind me of those bracelets that are magnatizes that somehow help you clear free redicals from your body. I just thing its interesting that they seem to have magnetic bracelets. Or i guess abbadon likes to give BFF freindship bracelets to his people. The initials inscription on elsas seemed very simuliar to naomis. If you look in ben journal from last season he referrs to people with intitials as well
Erich said: The more I think about Faraday's rocket experiment, the more it reminds me of that parking lot scene early in Back to the Future, when Doc Brown puts a clock around Einstein's neck and sends him off in the Delorean — then he comes back and the clock is however further ahead.
Oh that's good. Nice job E. Never thought of it like that. Daniel does seem to have an understanding why even though we haven't learned it yet,
Pulling it altogether gets harder and harder instead of easier. The future hints -
Sayid's an assassin working his way down a list provided by Ben (or Ben's even more sinister twin). He seems to be doing this to protect his friends.
Jack at first thinks he will never go back but later not only wants to go back but believes Kate should come with him. He is lying about something and he's tired of it.
Hurley is lying about knowing Ana Lucia - seems to be lying about who survived the crash - seems to be angry that Jack is questioning his loyalty to the big lie - yet apologizes to Jack for following Locke. All to be taken with a grain of salt because the boy he seems to be hallucinating rather vividly.
Kate makes it off the island and is not in jail - at least not on one particular night at the airport - someone seems to be screening her calls for her - Jack says to the person answering the phone "I know what she said," - unless I misheard. She also has someone who will wonder where she is.
As usual, I'm oscillating between crackpot theories that will be debunked I'm sure after the next episode -
1. The obituary is a fake - it's the way Ben communicates with his operatives. The reason Kate wouldn't go to the funeral is that they aren't supposed to - why would she?
Or
2. The person who is dead was on the list. Jack in his work as a dr. could assasinate people without arousing much suspicion if they were in the hospital already. Jack refused to kill him but reads the obit and realizes Ben got to him anyway. He wants to take Kate back to the island to see if these people they're all being manipulated to protect are even still alive.
How do you spell assasinate anyway? I bet I got it wrong.
Hey all! I've been completely out of pocket the past couple of days and have so much catching up to do!
Just finished watching the episode- didn't get a chance to see all of it last night. Going to start on comments. BBL. Don't say anything important til I get back! ;)
We all know Kate leaves the island, and last night I got the impression that even though the real world isn't a good place for her, she wants off the island anyway. Kate feels she has a better chance of survival in the real world instead of on the island. Kind of weird for a convict.
But to that point, Sawyer is a con man, and much like Ben, plays on Kates fears or "emotional investment" to try to convince her to stay.
After thinking about this long and hard last night, and whatching the preview for next weeks episode after lasts night concluded, I think Kate decides to spy on the camp in favor of Jack, which becomes the ultimate breaking point for the Skater. Sure they mess a round a bit, but Jack trusted Kate enoguh to send her in there. Kate has a great loyality to Jack, after all she did go back for him despite his wishes. That's how I see it playing out at this point after much thought.
Carol Dunstan said... As for the time anomaly... why doesn't communication with the outside world seem to be affected?
Maybe the problem isn't a time travel problem, but a distance problem. Maybe because of the light scattering effect, the island seems closer than it actually is, but radio waves travel so fast that you don't notice the difference.
Also, was it a guided missile? If it was flying toward the beacon, or whatever that was Daniel setup, it wouldn't matter how off course it was. If it was just a dumb missile, basically a giant bullet, it would be amazing that it would have landed so accurately.
The sub used a beacon to find the island as well...
BTW, what's the math on how fast that rocket was travelling? The ship is 80 miles off the coast, and it was supposed to reach the target in about 30 seconds? Isn't that like 9600 miles per hour??
maven said...*So Ben's secret room indicates he's been off the island many times. I think DocArtz posted that the money was of Michael Faraday, and was last used in 2001. Why does Ben have old money?
It's only a few years old, so it could only indicate the last time he was in England, i.e. before 2001.
memphish said... The idea that Ben could be in the coffin is now much more plausible as well given all the aliases Ben already has. Did anyone see a Lantham passport in that drawer?
It doesn't explain the newspaper article that Lantham was survived by a teenage son. I'm still sticking with Michael until I see some strong evidence to the contrary.
bigdog said... Ok great episode but i felt lost (no pun intended) so many times. sometimes i feel like i am not smart enough to be a true fan of the show.
I highly reccommend watching the "enchanced" version next week. There were a lot of interesting comments about the last episode.
bigdog said... Also a little confused. Was the woman that Sayid shot the target. or did we see a flash forward and then a flashback of the flash forward. basically is her boss dead already, if so why was Sayid still with her
The man on the golf course was a different person on the list. I don't think that was Elsa's boss, and he hasn't killed Elsa's boss ... yet
We also know that Kate is a runner, can't stay put for long. Being in the real world would give her more opportunities to flee. If she stayed on the island with Sawyer, she'd probably be going through the same thing she did when she married Kevin Callis...eventually she had to go on.
caught an interesting point while trolling around the Fuselage.
The time difference on the island could help explain the rapid healing. Time passes slower, but the body heals at a normal rate.
Thought that was interesting. Still doesn't explain Locke being able to walk.
In the last scene in the Vet's office, there's a shot of a dog in a cage which is lit up for emphasis. Does that dog remind you of a young Vincent? There's also a poster of the same dog on the door in the background. I can't make out what it says...probably in German anyway. I know yellow labs are common, but coincidence or fate?
Callis, huh. There's a C - did he have a sister named Regina? Or a brother names Roy. . . .or Rufus, or . . .
And the running thing - she's not realistically going to stick with anyone that has any sort of desire to put down roots. That's why I always had her and Sawyer pegged as the next Bonnie and Clyde back in the real world. Either that or she finally gets Ashley (I mean Jack) and realizes it was Rhett (I mean Sawyer) that she wanted all along.
dennis said:
I highly reccommend watching the "enchanced" version next week. There were a lot of interesting comments about the last episode.
Is next week's rerun going to be enhanced? I hadn't heard. I hope so. Did they enhance the first episode when they rerun it? I didn't watch it. I thought they only enhanced the 2nd one
maven said
We also know that Kate is a runner, can't stay put for long. Being in the real world would give her more opportunities to flee. If she stayed on the island with Sawyer, she'd probably be going through the same thing she did when she married Kevin Callis...eventually she had to go on.
I completely agree with you. I think she'd rather take her chances of island where she can run if she feels like it.
Kevin Callis only had brothers. That's why his mom gives "Monica" the necklace.
Also, Ben does not have a twin. We witnessed his birth.
Finally, I finally get why the golfer started freaking. People involved with the freckage are starting to die courtesy of Sayid. Mr. Avellino (?) was involved in the freckage and now fears that he's next, and he's right. It's only the case that the world doesn't know the link between these people who keep dying. The conspirators themselves and Ben know. It also seems like Ben may have a man on the conspiracy boat too. He tells Sayid he has another name, like he's only getting them one at a time, not working down a master list. Or maybe he's just revealing them to Sayid that way.
Memphish: That makes a lot of sense. Mr. Avellino knows he knows something about the freckage and/or island, so he knows he's on some kind of elimination list. The mention of O6 would send shivers down his spine. The only flaw is: If he was involved somehow in the freckage or whatever, then he would know Sayid right away before Sayid tells him he was in the O6, wouldn't he?
I agree Maven. Seems like he would have recognized him right away. It was also strange that Frank memorized all the names on the manifest, but he apparently didn't have any info. about who they were.
maven you make an excellent point kate is a runner and the island has become the newest place to run from. I can only think that the only way ben let an of the oceanic 6 leave is that he needs them again in the future. I dont think of the flash fowards as the end of the series i see them as the 3/4 mark and the finally we may even see jack make it back to the island. I think julliette will not be able to leave she is to valuable to solving bens fertility problem, it speaks to when richard said last season that he is concerned with other stuff and ben is too concerned with the fertility problem
As i stated before i think mihkail and klugh are more concerned with the off island interests than saving the island. I think that ben manipulated locke to not pressing the button, because it was part of his bigger plan to get the fantastic fout to the island, by the way abbadon asked hurley if they were still alive on the island i have to now think he was referring to the fan4 instead of the 815'ers
I wonder if the economist was ever really sayids target or it was just a ruse to get to elsa
any ideas to when sayid recruitment by ben really began. All the way back to his iraqi days with nadia(who was in manchester w/ charlie and in LA with locke) or just when the flight crashed. Ben leaving the island alot could also explain why he developed a tumor in the first place. we should not forget that the valanzetti equation boiled down the apocolypse to a specific event or date, so ben list may just be a way to avoid that kind of apocolypse in the vein of the terminator franchise
Someone was asaying the rpayload beacon test reminded them of back to the future, it reminded me of when mr Clucks was hit by a metior, if it was a metior and not a missle. I also dont think that its a small cooincidence that the two people that had the most trouble getting on 815(hurley and jack) are part of the O6.
I wonder why there was no mention of Nadia in this episode.
Maybe we'll eventually get another flash-forward (at a time prior to this one) where Sayid tries to find Nadia and something happens to her (maybe she's killed by the group Sayid is eliminating?). And maybe in reaching out to Nadia, Sayid accidentally did something that contributed to her death.
Could that be what Ben meant with his comment about thinking with your heart vs thinking with your gun?
Seychelles
Approximately 1,000 miles off the east coast of Africa, just south of the equator, the Seychelles is composed of an archipelago of 115 granite and coral islands that span miles of azure Indian Ocean...
...A number of unique luxury resorts have been developed on smaller private islands and can be accessed via helicopter, domestic flight, or speedboat. These islands are ideal getaways to relax, dine, and dive at some of the most secluded and luxurious island resorts in the world.
As you can see I've been searching some of the names in the show last night. I found this don't know if has any relavance but since we get alot of religous references I thought it was interesting.
Andrew Avellino
Also known as
Andrea Avellino; Lancelotto; Lorenzo Avellino
Memorial
10 November
Profile
Studied humanities and philosophy at Venice. Doctor of civil and ecclesiastical law. Ordained at age 26.
Lawyer at the ecclesiastical court at Naples. During a heated courtroom argument on behalf of a friend, he supported his position with a lie; in that setting, he had committed perjury. It shook him so badly, he gave up the legal profession, and settled into a life of penance.
Commissioned by his archbishop to reform the convent of Sant' Arcangelo at Naples, a house of such lax discipline it had became a topic of gossip in the city. Through good example, constant work, and the backing of his bishop he managed to restore celibate discipline to the house, but was nearly killed for his efforts when he was attacked by people ordered off the premises.
The night of the attack, he was taken to the house of the Theatine Clerks Regular. He was so impressed with them that he joined the order at age 35, taking the name Andrew because that Apostle had been crucified. Master of novices for ten years. Superior of the order. Founded Theatine houses in Milan and Piacenza, and helped establish others. Eloquent preacher, and popular missioner and spiritual director, bringing many back to the Church. Writer and extensive correspondent. Friend and advisor of Saint Charles Borromeo.
Suffered a stroke while celebrating Mass, and died soon after. Legend says that his blood bubbled and liquified after death, which led some to think that his stroke had left him catatonic, and that he was buried alive; a papal investigator found no credibility to any of this
I was just thinking about Jacob's cabin. Maybe it can only be seen at night. Wasn't it dark when Hurley saw it? It was definitely night when Ben and Locke visited.
Or, based on the "enhanced" comments, maybe you can only see it if you are special or summoned by Jacob, so by taking a huge group of "non-special" people there, it is not going to appear.
2costa said... I know i got a few details wrong, but i was mostly right. The payload coming an hour late..
Give or take 29 minutes ;)
Sayid'sgirl said... Is next week's rerun going to be enhanced? I hadn't heard. I hope so. Did they enhance the first episode when they rerun it? I didn't watch it. I thought they only enhanced the 2nd one
I hope they do this every week, it is a great idea. It gives us some official confirmation on some things. I didn't watch the repeat of "the Beginning of the End", since I still had it Tivo'd, so I don't know if it was enhanced, but I can't imagine that it wasn't since they did this episode, and the season 3 finale. Can anyone who watched the repeat last week confirm whether or not it was "enhanced". Thanks :)
I read last week that the plan is to continue with the enhanced repeats I guess up until the point the first 7 episodes are over. The enhanced episodes will also start running on G4 in the fall. I'm also hoping we'll get some Damon and Carlton OLPs soon.
Have we heard when Lost will be playing? Is it going to keep Gray's timeslot when they get more Gray's in the can?
I guess they'll still do the enhanced thing until more post-strike shows come on line.
Lostit: I posted about LOST going to 10pm when Grey's comes back in April. I think the first time is April 24th with Episode 8.
I read that Lost will stay in the 9:00 slot for the rest of hte 8 episodes. They'll be about a 4 week break till we get the last 5 episodes and Lost will be moved to 10:00 after Grey's Anatomy. And they may keep that time slot.
maven
I knew someone posted it but couldn't remember who. Thanks
FWIW, I just looked at ABC.com, and they have the enhanced "Through The Looking Glass" and "Confirmed Dead" episodes (in addition to the non-enhanced episodes), but no enhanced episode for "The Beginning of the End".
Is it normal for a golf course to have so many sand traps in one place? Or is a design we should look into?
maven
I don't play golf but I thought it looked kind of weird too.
I don't play either, sayid'sgirl. But it sure looks strange to me. Golfers out there, let us know if it's weird or not! LOL Or did TPTB enhance this tee with an easter egg?
Ryan from The Transmission said he thought the golf course was Turtle Bay, and if you look at this photo I think he's right and that there are that many traps.
I wish I could shut off the LOST part of my brain, but since I can't, it dawned on me that the deleted scene Doc Arzt posted didn't make any sense. The code box to turn off the fence was on the inside, not the outside. Juliet tells Kate it was off in Left Behind, then they went through and turned it off. And young Ben in TMBTC turned it off before sending the bunny outside the barracks area.
At least you haven't spent the last 20 minutes trying to run calculations on those darn times. There is one way you can run the numbers where you get a 6 to 1 ratio. Which would work nicely with the 6 seasons angle. Then Jack's 100 days becomes 600 days or roughly 2 years.
So on Juliet's nephew after 6 months, 36 months have gone by - so he'd be about 2 and a half - if Ben made the tape right then when Juliet asked to go home - he's have to wait 2 and a half years to show it to her unless she's in on it.
That's he'd not he's - my typos strike again!
Memphish...
Wouldn't you need it on both sides, depending on if you were coming or going? Maybe some pylons have it on the outside, and some on the inside?
Memphish,
It begs to reason that there would be code boxes on both sides of the fence.
And I immediatly thought of Turtle Bay. There is also one in Pheonix thats has that kind of terain.
I really don't know what to make of this time thing, unless the purpling is what caused time to run differently so that it's only been happening about 30 days or so.
I mean how many things have we been shown that seem to indicate time runs the same? Ben seems to have aged appropriately. Juliet tells Goodwin tomorrow I'll have been here 3 years, and he doesn't do anything to disabuse her of that notion. There's the date on the newspaper when Rachel and Julian are at the park. There's Jack and Desmond's interactions off Island. There's the Red Sox winning the series in 2004 and the tape of that on-Island. There's the footage of 815 missing mere hours after 815 crashes on the Island. And of course there's the absence of lag time in using the sat phone.
I guess if you can communicate with the real world you can show on Island anything that's already happened off Island, but wouldn't Mikhail know?
This episode has left me feeling the same way I did after Michael shot Ana Lucia and Libby - disconnected and disconcerted.
It makes sense there would be boxes on both sides, but we've only been shown them on the inside. If they are on the outside too, why didn't Juliet set them before she took Kate into the jungle? Did she leave Jack and Sayid vulnerable to Smokey while she worked her con?
memphish - I think that's what drove me to start running the numbers. That feeling of being disconcerted. Every time I get a calculation going that feels right - something comes up that makes me think - no that can't be it.
What if the island just flat-out moves around. The reason it took 30 extra minutes is that the island was 30 minutes further from the boat than it used to be. Or if it's a guided missile homed in on that beacon - maybe it took 30 additional minutes to find it's intended target. But somehow that doesn't explain why the clocks are running differently.
I still think that time runs the same both on and off the island. There must just be some unusual properties about space and time at some point in-between.
And Memphish, I also am troubled by this episode, but more so about why Jack and company weren't asking Frank and Daniel and Charlotte a whole bunch of questions.
If Jack, doesn't trust the freighties, why wouldn't he be grilling them about who they are, how their team was assembled, exactly who and what is on the boat, excactly what they know about the freckage, etc.
One of the things I really liked about the first two episodes this season was that characters were constantly asking questions of one another.
BlueHeron, I can understand Jack being a little hesitant about hounding the newbies too much. His goal is to get everyone off the Island. Right now they seem inclined to do that. Antagonizing them may change that.
Plus, leaving Jack with them pretty much insures we'll get no relevant questions asked. I think Jack thinks he's smart enough to figure out what people are up to without him having to actually ask them. He's notorious for this type of behavior like during The Hunting Party and his entire time in captivity with the Others. While I think it's a bit exaggerated, I think it can all be traced back to a degree of intellectual arrogance.
In the episode the course is supposed to be in The Seychelles, not Europe. I think it's definitely Turtle Bay which is on the north shore of Oahu.
For that matter, I don't understand why Frank, apparently not trusting the 815ers, would be willing to fly two of them back to the boat.
And shouldn't he be concerned about coming back to the boat without his full team on the chopper, and without them having accomplished their mission (capturing Ben)?
is this the hole:
http://turtlebayresort.com/Golf/Courses.asp
I do think it's significant though that Jack says he hasn't seen a game in 100 days immediately before Dan's payload arrives. That 100 days is such a nice round number to play with. It's either a clue or a red herring. I'm not sure which.
It is totally normal for a nice golf course to have that many sandtraps. It all depends on the desinger, but Pete Dye, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer and Greg Norman are famous for having a lot of hazard like that.
I'm not sure what course it was, but I guarantee you it wasn't in Europe. Europeen courses are links courses. Links courses are very up (lots of hills) with waste high yellow grass or really thick ruff outlining the fairway. They are also not very green due to to the weather in Europe.
The course was definetly in the US, my guess is in Hawaii since TPTB hardly ever leave that state to film. Even the scenes meant to be in LA are in Hawaii.
It could Wailea, a famous club near LOST's location. It could be turtle bay or a number of other courses. I will look at Turtle bay and see if I recognize the hole.
didn't say it was supposed to be in Europe, just that it is not in Europe.
sorry, just went back and read the comment with the link to the pic. Missed that one.
Well inbetween taking care of kids today, I finally caught up! Unfortunately, my head just exploded.
I have so many notes, I don't know if I should even start! (And I have to leave again in 15 minutes- but that's only 2 minutes in island time;))
Regarding the comment yesterday about 19 years passing off island, another thing that debunks that timeline is that in TTLG Jack was in 2007, and that his ex wife Sarah still looked basically the same. So while there is time difference going on, it's not 19 years worth.
And I agree with whoever said, why doesn't someone just ask what day it is. I mean seriously, is everyone on the island that connected with what day it is that no one has to ask? I have to ask what day/date it is several times a week.
This show is going to get really confusing now that we have present day (2004) on island and off island storylines, as well as off island past and future storylines. Hope someone's keeping good track of that because it confuses me.
So I wonder if the 2004 tsunami will figure in anywhere here? Not a big deal, but I'm just curious.
I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but did anyone think it was weird that the swings on the swingset in New Otherton were swinging back and forth as if someone were on them? I noticed it, and then Miles drew attention to them. It was really weird. I don't think it was a sign that Locke's team had just been through there, because they were swinging so evenly and had quite a bit of momentum still going on them (I'm a bit of a swing expert since I push and watch my kids on our swingset daily. haha)
memphish
Ben had a tape of the series it could have it could have been several months or several years old.
Maybe Goodwin doesn't know about the time thing or if he does maybe he's been instructed not to say anything. We don't know how he was brought there or what he knows. Ben may have just let Juliet believe that the footage of her sister and nephew was current. When it was actually taped.
The same with the crash footage. We're just assuming it's current because the plane just crashed on the island but it could be archived news footage.
But of course Ben's age and Jack and Desmond's past meeting would seem to contridict that. It is very confusing.
I'm sure Mikhail did know, but I don't think he would tell he was pretty loyal to Ben up to the end.
Oh one more thing before I have to leave again...so Ben is a list man...don't be hard on him, I'm a list person, too. To do lists, grocery lists, birthday lists, movies to see lists, etc. etc. etc. ;)
Another option is that Ben's man on the boat is messing with Dan. He set the clocks differently and waited a while to send the payload to skew the results. Maybe to back up whatever information Dan's been fed about the island to get him to go there.
It's starting to sound like there are 2 factions represented even on the freighter itself.
On the topic of the SOnic fence code boxes. I am not certain, but when Juliet and Kate encounter the smoke monster they run to the gate, juliet turns it off from the outside and then back on from the inside.
Just thought I would throw that out there.
Oooh, I like that explanation Lost2010. That one I can understand.
Scoutpost I did think Othersville with its swings swinging and all that laundry on the lines was weird. Where did all that laundry come from? I don't think it was there when the Others bugged out.
I'm a listie too Scoutpost. :-}
Wow, lots of great discussions going on here today and it doesn't seem we're any less confused:)
Kyle aka TheBookPolice said...
"I continue to be disappointed in and irritated with Hurley, codysmom. Been saying that for three weeks now."
I know! at this point I almost regret calling my dog, Hurley, but now that he's over a year old I don't think he'd come if I started calling him Sawyer (my second choice name) JK.. Hurley (in the show) has a chance still to come out a hero...
MoreLostThanU said...
"Wouldn't it be something is Ben isn't the bad guy that we all think he is? That Sayid is working with him because he found this out. That in the end Ben is a hero in this story. Just a thought."
I have been wondering this for a long time. I think the secret of the island that the Dharma people found out about (or created or manipulated) won't be revealed to us for a long time, but it obviously is important enough for a "war" of sorts between the two sides that want control of it.
tallone, thanks for the youtube links! I never was good at physics (give me chemistry or biology any time), so this is laid out in layman's terms and easier to understand. I must admit, tho, I'm still LOST.
From the youtube on Eintein's special theory of relativity:
I never thought of sunlight as having poundage (hee hee) Am I lighter on a cloudy day?
second youtube... a phoneline to the future! This is very cool stuff! And it could explain a lot of what's happening in Lost..
I think it's interesting that Sayid tells Ilsa "everybody has a boss" Sooo, who is Ben's boss?
Lost 2010 said...
Another option is that Ben's man on the boat is messing with Dan.
hmmmm, not sure about that one, but it would explain why Dan was told only to talk to Regina..
scoutpost and capcom, I can relate to being a list person. If I don't write it down......
What if that's why Frank said if Minkowski answers hang up because Regina and Frank were messing with Dan. Oh those crazy Freighter people.
Sorry that that sounds like I copied Codysmom. Great idea Codysmom. That one I can understand a lot better than any "real" implications.
No worries, memphish... LOL "crazy Frieghter people"
I too was wondering about the whole Minkowski thing... last week someone wanted to speak to him and he wasn't available, this week someone doesn't want to speak to him to the point of hanging up. Whoever is Ben's spy, I doubt the other Freighterers know unless there really is mis-communication among the Freighterers like there is amongst the Losties otherwise you'd think everyone but Minkowski knows they know. I'm beginging to think, like lost2010 suggested, there are two Freighterer factions (just like we have 2 Lostie factions (Jack and Locke) and two Other factions (Ben loyalists and those that want him gone).
blueheron, that's an interesting thought about the time lost depending on the trajectory. Dennis brings up a good point about the speed of sound compared to the speed of the rocket. Sound possibly is delayed by the same forces as the rocket however sound travels faster so the delay isn't so obvious.
2costa, it's a good thought that Ben is behind the Freighterers (and I guess also behind the freckage), it would explain how he knew so much - Ben is his own "man on the boat"! And as you suggest, Abaddon later becomes a turncoat and switches his allegiances. Speaking of allegiances... Ben having a Swiss passport as Moriaty - oh the irony! Ben is anything but neutral from what we have seen ;-)
Last week we were commenting on the Freighterers being the new Losties and the Losties becoming the Others, this week we had Miles highlighted as the new Sawyer (though nowhere near as charismatic) and Locke is clearly becoming the new Ben with his trap... he correctly pegged how they would come to the Barracks and believe Hurley (well, who wouldn't). Come to think of it, Hurley isn't such a bad lier, he had Sawyer convinced they were going to vote him off. At least then he used his powers of persuasion for good, not evil. I think this will be what he regreted when talking to Jack in his flashforward
I really wish they'd gag Ben so he can't come out with his one-liners and manipulate people whenever he wants. It bugged me last week that Sawyer couldn't follow his own advise, seeing the flashforward and seeing where it's all headed I really really hate that Ben is able to manipulate Sayid into that headspace.
memphis - I also thought it was odd that Frank knew the names but nothing else. Then again, he said he'd been studying the manifest and that wouldn't have job description listed with the names ;-)
I'm reading Doc Jenson now. Love the way he writes...
Of course, the thing that makes me think Ben isn't a hero comes back to his private obsession - the fertility thing.
If he can go back and forth and does, why doesn't he immediately ferry every pregnant woman back to the real world. If travel between is doable then all these women dying on the island is ridiculous. Or will getting them off the island not really help? Is Sun doomed no matter where she has her baby?
Carol, Hurley is the new Juliet too. He was Left Behind to con Kate. :)
Codysmom, I thought this was a particularly funny Doc Jensen. I LOLed several times.
Lost2010, I was wondering about the fertility thing too! Ben's jet setting, but Juliet is never allowed to leave nor are the pregnant women? I guess this could just go back to Ben's "Mommy Issues."
Also, enjoyed this week's Doc Jensen. Very clever stuff.
There seems to be much more to Ben now than just the fertility issue. An all out war must have been in the planning stages for a long time. I, too, don't understand why Ben is just letting woman die on the island and doesn't let them carry and give birth off-island (unless he's afraid of losing them to the regular world). I guess he wants to keep his merry band totally under his control and he can't have people coming and going all the time. Although he seems to come and go all the time.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Sayid would pick up a handful of snow on top of the trash can when he tossed the cell phone after checking in with his boss (Ben). I thought it was strange. Was he washing his hand because the phone was dirty? LOL
My nephew and I asked each other that same thing Maven!
Back again- I wondered the exact same thing you guys! That was really weird- I wracked my brain trying to figure out what that move was for (and of course it probably means nothing).
Maybe Sayid just feels dirty whenever he has to talk to Ben...it's a symbolic cleansing of the soul...which he obviously sold to the devil.
That's the sense that I got too. Perhaps either a cleansing thing (is there maybe a Muslim practice?), or a general yuk-factor after dealing with Ben.
FWIW, I'm putting out some feelers in the rocketry community to see if I can get some info on homing missiles, etc. Probably won't come up with anything pertinent or useful, but you never know.
Since it's always fun to remember Stranger in a Strange Land, here's some news about Bai Ling!
link = Bail Ling Arrested for Shoplifting
Oops, that's the first time I tried to post a link. Didn't get it quite right!
I saw and posted that yesterday, Blueheron13. I guess the LOST curse continues!
memphish, oh yes I thought that too at the time... that thought though was completely overshadowed by his double-cross.
And yes, I thought Sayid and the snow was a cleansing too. Wonder what he'll do to cleanse himself of being opperated on by Ben...
Here's another thought: Elsa had a pager from her boss. That seemed so old-fashioned. Why not a cellphone? My first thought was that The Economist was against technology which, in turn, reminded me of Jacob's phobia. Could they be connected somehow?
I think I'd want to wash my hands after talking to Ben - maybe my ears too.
You know, for some odd reason I had decided that was Christian Shepard on the other end of the phone - and I'm firmly in the Christian is dead camp. And then at that clinic - I was just sure it was going to be Christian or Juliet.
They really got me on that one.
Maybe this was the Cobra tie-in. :) Sayid was the Cobra all along. . .
From Wiki on pagers...
Pagers are still in use today in places where mobile phones typically cannot reach users, and also in places where the operation of the radio transmitters contained in mobile phones is problematic or prohibited. One such type of location is a large hospital complex, where cellular coverage is often weak or nonexistent, where radio transmitters are suggested to interfere with sensitive medical equipment and where there is a greater need of assurance for a timely delivery of a message.
Some common environments in which pagers are still used are:
* Pagers remain in use to notify emergency personnel. For example, they are required to be used by UK lifeboat men and retained firefighters.
* Pagers are mostly carried by staff in medical establishments, allowing them to be summoned to emergencies.
* Pagers are also widely used in the IT world, especially in cases where on-call technicians cannot rely on more modern cellular telephone systems. A good example would be in a cellular telephone company, where a service interruption in the cellular network would also mean that it would not be possible to notify a technician due to the outage in the network. Therefore, in these companies, engineers are usually equipped with a pager that uses another telco's mobile network to ensure reachability in case of emergency. Pagers are also frequently used by non-telco IT departments.
Another common use of an older pager technology the 'tone pager' in use today is the call pager. In industries having to manage long lines of people it allows customers to relax outside or at the bar while waiting for their table. Many restaurants now use a coaster or other device that will alert you when your table is ready with flashing LED's, buzzing and vibrating.
Security:
Pagers also have privacy advantages compared with cellular phones. Since a one-way pager is a passive receiver only (it sends no information back to the base station), its location cannot be tracked. However, this can also be disadvantageous, as a message sent to a pager must be broadcast from every paging transmitter in the pager's service area. Thus, if a pager has nationwide service, a message sent to it could be intercepted by criminals or law enforcement agencies anywhere within the nationwide service area.
That might explain why a pager and not a cell phone. Security and reliability. Or, Ilsa is in hospitals a lot and needs equipment that will not interfere when her all important "He could call at anytime" page comes.
Sorry, Maven, I must have missed your post.
Well this episode must've stumped J. Wood, too because his blog is still not up for last night's episode :(
A little sidetrack- Michael Emerson has got to be happy with this role- he is set to go down as one of the most memorable TV characters ever and one of the worst villians ever (unless he does end up being one of the good guys :p
Scoutpost,I noticed the swings too. It was like the kids were there,but you couldn't see them.I don't think the wind could make a swing go back and forth like that.
I'm going to re-watch now.
Since it's always fun to remember Stranger in a Strange Land, here's some news about Bai Ling!
link = Bail Ling Arrested for Shoplifting
Worst actress OR actor ever to appear on Lost, in my opinion. Ugh. Stranger in a Strange Land was like pulling teeth. Not that getting arrested is something I'd wish on anyone.
-------------------------------
And to think, Ben started out as a three-episode role.
I read in the NYT that Cane wasn't due to be back after the strike; I don't know if that mean's if it is canceled or not. Any news on whether or not we may be seeing Nestor eventually?
I think the initials on the bracelet are RG. Someone mentioned seeing intials on Elsa's bracelet. I don't remember seeing that. Can you post a link to a screencap? I only saw the inscription on Naomi's bracelet.
maven, that dog in the cage is not a yellow lab, it's a "blonde" beagle.
Time couldn't have been slower on the island before the crash because the date printed out when Desmond caused the crash by not pushing the button in time was the right time and date of the crash. If time is going slower, it's only since the purpling.
RE Hurley, I'm disappoined in him, too. If you can't trust Hurley, who can you trust? Howd did Locke get him to go along with it?
I was wondering about Sayid "wshing" his hand with the snow, too. Wha was that all about? It seemed symbolic of "washing his hands of the crime" he was about to commit.
Happy Saturday LoCos. I'll be gone most of the day, but of course I had to start here first.
As for the pager, Hubby, the surgeon still carries a pager and not just a phone reasons mirroring many that Ange posted. It's more reliable, and he's less likely to miss things that might roll over into voicemail or never quite make it into voicemail on a cell phone. And even then, it still it doesn't always work in the depths of the hospital.
Capcom's friend Tommy has a good post about time on his blog. Way back in the summer when I read Lost Horizon I was wondering the same sort of thing about the never aging Islanders. But things on LOST never work quite the same as in other references. Seeing Richard off the Island not turning into the 1000-year-old man for example is a prime difference.
And still no J Wood yet. Oh well, it will give me something to read tomorrow. Have a good one LoCos!
A few ideas my wife and I have been tossing around.
1. Ben has final say about who gets off the island. It doesn't really matter about who wants to get off the island. We know Sayid is a forced assassin for Ben. Who would make other good assassins? Who else would Ben choose to allow off the island? Who would Ben have leverage on to force to do his dirty work? Kate & Jin.
2. So why do Jack & Hurley get off the island? Ben gave Jack his word for doing the spinal surgery and Ben has some sort of twisted sense of honor. Ben is threatened by Hurley's connection to the island and could use access to Hurley's fortune to pad his bank account.
3. So you've got Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid...and our prediction is Jin and Sun (Sun and baby are Ben's leverage on Jin).
4. Oh, what's Ben's leverage on Sayid? Nadia. What's Ben's leverage on Kate? Her baby.
Following the thoughts in my previous post. If Ben is manipulating Sayid (Kate and Jin) to do his dirty work....What is Ben's dirty work?
I think it may be more complicated than a Team Ben vs. Team Abaddon scenario. There are probably a broad spectrum of forces that are motivated to find the island. Each force has their own motive. Ben is just one of many who has interest in the island. It will be the unfolding of the story in the next 3 years that will reveal whose after what and why.
Forces to be considered:
Ben
Alpert
Hanso
Mittlewerk
Widmore
Penny
Paik
Abaddon
Jacob
Everyone has their own motives...which are primarily yet to be uncovered...some are connected in a cooperative manner...some are vicious enemies. It's a lot to sort out!
i think the pager thing was partly being old school, but also like on the wire pagers are much harder to trace and track than cell phones and of course no listening, whereas a cell phone can be cloned by law enforcement. And i think the lady macbeth angle of sayid washing his hand is right on the money. I also think it was very telling that ben had all those golden lab pics and what looked like a kennel I am posative that ties back to the retrievers of truth website and that weird wally guy, as well as my theory that vincent is very intelligent(ala the polar bears) and that it was no coincidence that vincent brought roger workmans bone to hurley, which led to finding the vw, which in turn led to Hurley killing price and sawyer killing tom. If youll recalll when richard asked what to do with rogers body ben said to leave it out there after the purge...
a cell phone also has a gps in it and give off periodic pings whereas a pager does not have those things..
You make interesting points David. And even though it's been only 100+/- days on the island, a lot has happened. The Losties' needs, loyalites, and personalities, have been through much that could change a person enough since crashing, so that they might not have exactly the same personalities or idiosynchracies that we learned about them since the crash. The people they were at the point of being stranded, certainly doesn't have to be what they are once the option of rescue actually becomes an option. Take what Sawyer said to Kate this week, for example. That was not what I would think the old pre-Brig, etc., Sawyer would come to say. Of course I'm sure some people smarter than me would say they saw it coming a mile away. :-)
Right 2costa! "Out, out, damn Ben-spot!" :-)
Penuel said... So you've got Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid...and our prediction is Jin and Sun (Sun and baby are Ben's leverage on Jin).
What about Desmond's vision of Claire and the baby, from "Greatest Hits":
DESMOND: What I saw Charlie was, Claire and her baby getting into a helicopter. A helicopter that, lifts off, leaves this Island.
I think if people are going to leave the island anyways, it is a good excuse for Ben to continue his pregnancy experiments by letting Sun off the island and see if she can survive her pregnancy. This might mean that Juliet would get to leave the island as well, although she would not be part of the Oceanic 6.
2costa said... a cell phone also has a gps in it
Some cell phones have GPS, but back in 2004, it was extremely rare. Even without GPS however, the signal on a cell phone can be triangulated.
Hey! Sorry I only have a few minutes so I can't review what everyone's said. I miss theorizing with you! Also I haven't watched the episode. I did read the spoilers for it and have since read a few of the recaps. Here's my question. How likely is it, from this episode, that Ben turns the tails on the freighter people, takes over, and is the one that the Oceanic 6 have to make a bargain with in order to get off the island?
When Matthew Abbadon said to Hurley, "Are they still alive?" I think he was referring to the freighter people which would mean they were not in charge when the Oceanic 6 took over. Having made a deal with Ben to get off the island would also explain the guilt that the Hurley and Jack feel over the secret they have to keep and the deal they made. What does everybody else say?
I'm beginning to think that the Freighter Team and the boat itself is close to our time line. Here's why:
Well, we always thought that time moves more slowly on the island. He have people who don't age (Alpert). Now with Dan's experiment (which my feeble brain really doesn't fully understand), we are getting confirmation of time on the island being behind the real world.
Also, in the conversation with Frank, Jack throws out that he hasn't seen a baseball game for 100 days and Frank's look is slightly astonished. Also, when Jack asks Frank if the Red Sox really won the World Series, Frank says yes, but he doesn't say they won in 2007. Obviously, Jack is talking about 2004. But Frank would say yes to the most recent win in 2007. Red Sox was a clue in the Find815 game, so I think this is a big hint.
Also, in the Find815 game, most of us came up with the time line that Sam's journey and the freckage was late November to early/mid December. Christmas was mentioned a lot. We then see all the Team members hearing about the freckage on various mediums. Dan is upset when he hears about it on TV, Miles listens to the radio, Frank on the TV again, and Charlotte with various language newspapers. I really don't think that this Team would have been recruited by Naomi/Abaddon that quickly to get to the island around 100 days from the crash like Jack thinks. Getting that freighter ready and putting a crew together besides the four would take a while. I feel the Team's FB were about the time the freckage was revealed to the world at the end of 2004, and Naomi's FB with Abaddon happened closer to our time. Isn't the sat phone more modern than 2004? I believe Sayid said he had never seen that kind of technology before.
Over at DarkUFO, Vozzek69 posted his weekly recap. This paragraph stood out to me:
This whole episode was about big brother: Sayid’s boss, Locke’s boss, and most importantly Elsa’s boss. I don’t think he’s using a beeper because he’s stuck in a late 80’s/early 90’s rut… I think he’s using a beeper because of where and when he is. The Big Guy uses a beeper because he’s calling from the past – a past where cell phone towers might not yet have been erected and satellite phone connections may not yet have been set up. He’s using the highest technology available to him from the time and place that he’s calling from. And judging from the very important fact that he called Elsa a half hour (give or take a minute?) later than she expected him to… he’s probably calling from someplace green, leafy, and wet. And very very strange.
Vozzek69 is implying that The Economist is on the island in a different time line. The half hour delay is important in relation to what he found out in Dan's experiment. Could The Boss be Jacob? Or, an even mind-blowing possibility...could The Boss be Ben stuck in a different time line?
I'm thinking along the lines of Abaddon meaning the F-4s too. He would care more about them than the rest of the Others and Losties, most likely. But, I will stand corrected when TPTB show I'm wrong. :-)
As for the timeline, I can get behind just about any time portal/change/lag/difference that TPTB want to throw at us, and any theory put forth. Accept for the fact that (1)the islanders can talk in realtime to the boat off-island (i.e., outside whatever surrounds or moves the island that lagged the missile's arrival), and (2)what someone else said about the Pearl's printout showing Dez's goof on the same day as flight 815. I just can't qualify the "different but the same" problems in my head about time until TPTB give us more to go on. Can anyone else?
And sooner or later, will those on the freighter start to notice that time has passed differently on the ship than to the F-4s that they are conversing with on the island? Oh the pain, the pain. :-(
Also, I don't think that we should worry too much about how something could be done in real life, such as getting the group together. Not even considering that TPTB can say almost anything that they want to without explanation (e.g., see season 1-3 unsolved mysteries), if this seemingly limitless nefarious organization is in the business of doing this kind of thing to manipulate events in the world, we could assume that they might be ready and able to pull it off whenever necessary. Just my $.02, I could be wrong. :-)
"Or, an even mind-blowing possibility...could The Boss be Ben stuck in a different time line?"
Wow, Maven, that's heavy-duty!
hey guys looking around on the web...James Maxwell discovered radio waves...radio waves travel in real time..remember Hurley said he heard Glen Miller on ths radio. Also Sam heard the broadcast Amelia Earhart news broadcast...looking around there are math formulas for radio waves. These broadcasts happened in the past..so I am beginning to suspect that the arrow(math),time travel, daniel's clocks and charchters preception of time( the red sox game commen by jack..somehow I think the maxwell group UN and PW is tied up in radio wave info
help ! this is driving me nuts .
when sayid first walks into the german restaurant, there are whispers right before he asks Elsa if the seat is free . it sounds like "erklaerung" which is a german word, but i can't really discern it .. anyone else hear that ??
Post a Comment