Sayid and Desmond hit a bit of turbulence on the way to the freighter, which causes Desmond to experience some unexpected side effects. Flashback/Flashforward unconfirmed, no promotional photos, crazy promo with a long haired Faraday...Here we go!
Thursday, February 28, 2008
The Constant - Season 4, Episode 5
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618 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 618 Newer› Newest»Memphish, you're better than Lostpedia! Thanks for that link.
Ange, I got the link from Lostpedia, but I had to work Lostpedia to find it. :D
Just heard an awesome idea on Lost Unlocked. What we saw with Desmond is why Ben did in fact push the button in the Swan and lied about it. In the first instance he didn't want the massive does of electro-magnetism messing with his mechanism and in the second place perhaps he wanted it messing with Locke. I still don't think Ben knew about Desmond and the key, but this is not an invitation to restart that debate.
Did Eloise die in the 75 minutes that Desmond was "away" in Dan's office? Did Dan in fact teach Eloise to run the maze in that hour? Or because she'd already run it did he have to teach her or not?
He did have to teach her the maze. When her younger self showed up, she would need to learn the maze. Dan had to teach her so that when she switched back she'd know the maze.
I'd think that was the case too A2BH, so an hour passes, Dan teaches her the maze and 15 minutes later she dies because she has no constant. Right?
seems like my first post isn't going to appear so here it is, most ofthis stuff has already been discovered.
heres some pics of the first page:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Faradaysdiarypage1_1.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Faradaysdiarypage1_2.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Faradaysdiarypage1_3.jpg
Also at the bottom of the page it says "relativistic M(rest of word is hidden by his finger) of the particle is M(rest of word is hard to read due to handwriting, looks like measured though).
pic of 2nd page(don't think there was anything interesting on this page)
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Faradaysdiarypage2.jpg
pics of 3rd page:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Faradaysdiarypage3_1.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Faradaysdiarypage3_2.jpg
On the 3rd page with all the circles there are a few phrases that stand out like "Real Time" and "imaginary time/space" theres also "event a,b and c".
pics of fourth page:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Faradaysdiarypage4_1.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Faradaysdiarypage4_2.jpg
and on the fourth page(opposite the one which talks about demond being faradays constant) there is a grid, and a diagnol line going up, from left to right, on the axis it has 'Real time' on the bottom, 'space' on the right(probably meaning real space), 'imaginary space' on the left and 'time' on the top(probably meaning imaginary time). Also Faraday does his best to cover up the equation at the botton of the page.
Also is it just me, or did Keamy's tattoo look similar to the maxwell group logo?
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/Iceflame7777/Maxwelltattoo.jpg
after searching "the lorentz invariant" I came across this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-critical_string_theory:_Lorentz_invariance
which has a link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space
the 'non critical string theory page also has a link to this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_group
which has a link to this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations
I'm also interested in why it says "imaginary time/space".
Dale, wow, that's a great thought about Dan's notation in his notebook!
And I mostly came up with reams of useless (to us anyway) math problems when I tried to search on the things in his notebook pages!
I think that Hawking created the theory of Imaginary Time. At least it says so in his books that I have. :-) It's something about time being sphere-shaped, like a planet. You go round and round and never really get to an end, like you would traveling on a finite plane, etc.
Also, good point someone had about the "Somewhere in Time" angle. When I was a kid (mostly thanks to the Twilight Zone) I really believed that something like that was possible. I also thought that you could swim to the bottom of a pool and come up to the surface someplace else (also thanks to the TZ!). :o)
Hey Ellen, I tried to go to your blog, but a message says that it was disabled.
LOL, capcom... how fun to be you (when you were a kid)! Kids are better at "imaginary space-time"..
Here in Michigan, on Mackinac Island where "Somewhere in Time" was filmed, they have an annual celebration of it and everyone dresses in the period, etc.
I also like Dale's idea about Daniel's book, but when he says "desmond went back in time he changed the future," according to the OLP that wouldn't happen since the future can't be changed even if certain events in the past are changed. Maybe instead of the red words (If anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my constant) suddenly appearing, the words have always been there but now have meaning to Daniel.
Also, according to the OLP,
The world "course corrects" as per Ms. Hawking.... I want to know who has the blueprints for "what is meant to be"? Most people would say "God", but since some of the questionable scientific research by Dharma could be argued to be "playing God", could there be more than one future scenario? If all is pre-determined whatever did happen to free will?
When I say "the words have always been there but now have meaning to Daniel."
I mean the words have been there since 1996 when he met Desmond in his lab...
I wish I could stay longer today, but just a couple more things then I have to go...
I like scoutposts idea about future Jack..
When he says to Kate in s3 finale, "We have to go back".... What if Kate is Jack's constant and he needs her to go with him? Daniel said, "the constant has to be something familiar in both times, something (or some person) you really care about, and (if it's a person) YOU HAVE TO MAKE CONTACT."
Do we think Daniel listened to Des and got protection for his head from all the radiation he was exposed to?
First thing the boat dr. does is look into Desmond's eyes... hmmm
Two other recent "eye" moments...
Jack looks into his own eyes in the rear view mirror of his car before meeting Kate at the airport
Miles looks into his own eyes in the rear view mirror of his car before going into the house to do his ghostbusting
Maybe not important... but it's Lost and it's all about the EYES
ellen
Thanks for the information. That helps me understand and except that perhaps itcould possible, for me.
Note: ellen and dale and anyone else like me.
If you are reading in the oldest,older or newer sections you can't post in them. You have to be sure to go to the newest post section and post your comments for them to show up. Don't ask me but trust me I did it many, many times trying to keep up with the comments yesterday.
Interesting points Codysmom, especially Jack and his constant.
The thing to remember about the "never changing the future" thing, is that it does have some wiggle room. For example, if you don't find your constant, you die, and then everything you would do into old age (after the age that you died from that) is now obliterated, as you won't grow old and have that future. Also, all the people that you interacted with in the future will be affected if you aren't there. Even things that Mrs.H said, imply that there is wiggle room. I think the main reason why TPTB keep the non-changing future in mind is, as they say, to keep the story's narrative constant, and to keep us invested in what they are telling us will happen.
Thanks for the heads-up Sayidsgirl!
capcom
The thing to remember about the "never changing the future" thing, is that it does have some wiggle room. For example, if you don't find your constant, you die, and then everything you would do into old age (after the age that you died from that) is now obliterated, as you won't grow old and have that future. Also, all the people that you interacted with in the future will be affected
if you aren't there.
You're welcome. It was drving me nuts I posted the same thing three times.
The way I look at is 1996 Desmond's future hasn't happened yet although he has seen a glimpse of it. So if he died because he doesn't have a constant it wouldn't effect the future because 1996 Desmond didn't live to create that future. Does that make any since? Another way to look at it is, he couldn't die because he if he did he wouldn't have had a future to see. I think that have made less since. lol
Anyway I don't think he can change the future.
If are so many important people on flight 815, then its no accident that kelvin let desmond see the rip in his biohazard suit, and then took of his helmet within eyeshot of the swan so desmond would follow him to the beach, and have just enough time to get back to the swan before a purpling to begin, but still bring down flight 815. That seems to indicate to me that kelvin is working with at the very least ms. Hawkings and maybe ben, also how kelvin turned out sayid into a torturer in iraq seems to go along with that. I am still of the school that thinks kelvin will be back.
as far as the "did dan change time" or was it already like that discussion, i tend to side with dale in thinking that even if dan had amnesia he would have seen the red constant warning and restored his mind the first time he met desmond on the island a few days earlier. Then i was thinking about how penny was acting when she talked to charlie, here is where it gets confusing. If daniel hadn't changed the past yet,by telling desmond to go to oxford, then penny wouldnt have had her christmas eve 2004 date with desmond on her mind two days earlier. That seems to fit though because she didnt seem to know she was gonna talk to desmond in two days ala his prophecy. She also didnt seem to know anything about the freighter at that point, not even that it was there. Thats were minkowski comes in, Im not sure but i think he said he did answer the call of penny one time or else he wouldnt have known her name. I think minkowskis medling with the timeline set off these events. It would make sense that after minkowski answered the call, why penny was so relaxed on christmas eve even though she had talked to charlie 2 days earlier, becuase now she did have the sense that she would talk to desmond in 2 days. Whether it was minkowski or not is pretty irrelivent, but the fact that it was changed or minkowski lied about talking to penny is important.
An interesting part of an interview they had up with charlotte, they asked her her if she was testing his memory with the cards and she wouldnt commit to that. What if she wasn't testing his memory with the cards, what if she was testing his psychic ability or his knowledge of the future.
maven mentioned that the picture in aarons room had a 6 of clubs just like one of the cards he was tested with and it was secret clue 4 for season for asking whats the connection. Maybe it refers to how many of the oceanic people will get saved, but another possability is what if, like the picture on widmore's wall with the buddah and the polar bear, there are clues about the timeline encoded in the artwork, as a sort of touchstone for the timeline, i know this is confusing but maybe people that are privy to the timeline deep into the future,like dan perhaps, this is how they can tell if their changes are taking hold. to take it a step further maybe the fantastic four are there to change the future and thats what those cards represent. Its like an encoded way that ms hawkings or her rival are putting markers onto the timeline or esle, like daniels journal once reality is changed you would never know the difference. As i said before with dan needing to train eloise after the experiment or it would mess up time. Maybe the aneurysm takes place when you change time and your brain cant deal with all the conflicting memeories. Desmond in this way is like neo cause he is spoonfed the changes to time in a way that protects his brain,ala his having just one counciousness, the 1996 one, instead of going back and forth like minkowski with memeories of both realities, maybe hes a perfect canidate like they pick certain people to be astronauts.
one more thought about constants is people who travel like desmond go to all differnt points in time so your constant needs to be around in your life throughout the time periods you jump to. Desmond jumped to earlier than 1996 after the failsafe key, but penny was still his constant and that why he isnt nosebleeding. Minkowski on the other hand implyed he was jumping all over the place so he probably had no concrete constant. This all reminded me of when charlie was learning to swim as a kid and heard desmonds name in the background, and then charlie met desmond when he was singing wonderwall on the streets, then again on the island. Thats at least three times, this suggests that desmond is charlies constant, perhaps why charlie is able to appear to hurley. This shot holes in my theory about the 815'ers chance meetings making them each others constants because it takes more than one other metting to be a persons constant. Which interestingly would make cooper sawyer and lockes constant, by bringing cooper to the island
Happy Weekend everyone!
WOW, you guys continue to amaze me with all of your discussions. I feel so sorry for the casual viewer who just isn't getting into these great theories and missing all the levels of this great show!
Dale: Love how you pointed out that the notation about Desmond in Dan's notebook. It would not have appeared until he met him at Queens College.
On the OLP, Darlton said that Desmond is really coming from 1996 (although for some reason they kept saying 1994), and FF-ing to 2004. That would explain why he doesn't have a clue about the island or Sayid, etc. But he's bringing information back to 1996 that wouldn't have been there normally...like the info about being on the island, and most importantly, Dan's numbers for the experiment. Isn't this course correcting? Is this the wiggle room?
Dale: Good catch on Keamy's tattoo. It definitely looks like the Maxwell Group logo. Who actually tattoos their boss' logo on them? LOL
Codysmom: Great observation on the eyes! We know of many opening shots of eye close-ups, and Jacob's eye and how they are so important to the show. Now, these shots of looking at eyes in mirrors, etc. just rounds out how eyes are the mirrors of the soul!
The thing with Desmond being Dan's constant is he told 1996 Desmond he had to make contact with his constant. I don't think Des and Dan really made "contact" on the island until they spoke on the sat phone like Des did with Penny.
I'm also not so sure Dan was looking for the page on which he had written Desmond was his constant as much as he just came across it. Then the realization kicked in.
2costa: Good point that Penny has just talked to Charlie 2 days and hears Desmond's name. Then she must realize that Desmond would really, actually call her on Christmas Eve. You would think she would have picked up the phone a lot quicker! LOL
By talking to Charlie, I'd would guess that Penny would question her father and find out if had a boat in the Pacific. If she got that information, she would be calling that boat. But her father would have told Minkowski not to answer her calls.
I just rewatched the scene when Dan tells Desmond he needs a constant...something familiar in both times. If it's a person you need to make contact with them. But, if it's not a person do you just need to touch it or look at it?
Sayid'sgirl: Good point about Dan sort of being surprised seeing that note in his book about Desmond. He was just thumbing through the pages and came upon it. Of course, it was in red and stood out. Makes me think it wasn't there prior to this. Maybe it didn't appear until he made contact with Desmond on the sat phone and sent him back to Queens College.
Here's a confusing point for me:
Minkowski is going through the same thing as Desmond. He is in 2004 and seems to be traveling back to somewhere (where there is a ferris wheel). But, unlike Desmond, he seems to remember and know everything in 2004...his name, his ship, what happened to Brandon. Desmond has no clue about anything in 2004. Now, Darlton did say that 1996 Desmond is traveling forward to 2004 where he knows nobody or nothing. Is 2004 Minkowski traveling back where he knows nobody or nothing?
my point about kelvin also dovetails with frank and the pilot of 815, what experienced pilot gets a 1000 miles off course before he does something, thats 2 or three hours minimum, not to mention i cant see the island sphere of influence reaching that far, so to me either the pilot was in ion it or the planes equipment was sabotaged
Who's to say that the pilot was experienced? :o) We don't know how many hours of flight time he had. But I'll take either of your alternatives, to make things interesting, heheh.
minkowski made it sound like he was jumoping all over time and the ferris whell was his latest stop, like i said desmond has gone back to two differnt places in time and had visions of the future, so if dan is indeed having something like desmond maybe he has flashes of the future as well, due to his simuliar exposure to raiation or electromaganativity in his lab, lets not forget that desmond was in the swan fo ryears and jacks dogtags or whatever showed the electromagantism was strong in the swan, that would seem to point to the dharma injections protecting desmond from the effects of the electromagnatism
maven maybe all the shots that desmond had had previously had preparded his mind better for the time journey as i dsaid he aslways has that pic of penny with him, thats the only way to have a true constant, as i said you can jump to differnt points so you need to have a constant that bookends large periods of time, because you might flip to a time where you didnt have the constant there and you'd be screwed. What if dan is having little flashes of the future and the cards game was to test what had changed, like charlie not getting hit with the crossbow when they went to find naomi. That sort of why i think mikhail was doing some course correcting when he swooped in and saved naomi, because had she died there they may never have been able to contact the freighter. Maybe the point of the cards, as also the card in aarons room, is to test if they have set the timeline their employer wants back on track. If anything dan isnt being completely honest yet, i recall the scene from two weeks ago where jack says something like they are here to save us all and bring us back to the freighter, and dan looked down in way like,thats not how its gonna go jack, like dan had a differnt mission or had some knowledge how things were gonna play out
2costa said...my point about kelvin also dovetails with frank and the pilot of 815, what experienced pilot gets a 1000 miles off course before he does something, thats 2 or three hours minimum, not to mention i cant see the island sphere of influence reaching that far, so to me either the pilot was in ion it or the planes equipment was sabotaged
I totally agree with you, and I think that the pilot and also Frank were hired to somehow land that plane on the island.
It could be a theory that Frank was hired to land that plane (he has skills after all) and the freckage was created to hide the evidence. Something happened and Frank couldn't do the job. Another pilot took his place that was less skilled and/or not as versed in what was really going on, and the plane crashes rather than lands.
They are making an "airstrip" and Ben did need new mommies. Also, it may explain why no one seems all that surprised when the plane showed up. Nervous that it crashed yes, but not really surprised. Just my .02 which I have been thinking about since the freckage video.
the picture of penny was constant lite, it was enough to keep desmond from going completly nosebleedy insane, but not enough to bring his present consiousness back into the present body. I think we also have to wonder why desmond was naked during the failsafe key flashback, then could suddenly see the future after that, and why desmond no longer saw flashes of the future, once charlie died, it might tie to charlie being desmonds constant until charlie died, the childhood pool reference to desmond,then charlei was there during his hawkings flashback, then on the island, might explain why desmond didnt go batty after the purpling. To me i think someone had desmond tucked away during the purpling while he was probably knocked out because it was the reverse of hs flashback this time. The first time future desmonds counsscuiousness was in past desmonds body the second time around past desmond was flipping into present desmonds body and going back to the past...
This is nitpicky, but Penny's address in Live Together, Die Alone wasn't 423 Cheyne Walk, it was 23 Davismore Gardens. Here's the Lostpedia link. Why change it? And I guess it was just fortuitous that Penny moved to where she could keep her old number. I've had friends who moved 1 block and the phone company made them get a new number, but others have moved miles and kept their numbers.
i think one of the most convincing argument that this weeks time travel was breaking new ground is that desmond would have remembered going to see farday in the past when he saw faraday,not to mention he never would have questioned his mission or the swan with locke had he rembered eloise or any of that stuff from his past and that would have already happened because it happened to 1996 desmond, So when jack found desmond in the swan, desmond wouldnt have just been relying on kelvins word about saaving the world he would have remembered hawkings from his first time around, and more importantly he would have remmbered faraday from oxford and eloise. We are looking at it the wrong way trying to see if dan recognized desmond, its the other way around desmond didnt have amnesia when dan landed so he surely would have remembered him. Well why didnt desmond remember charlie from his street performance?either it was so minor he just couldnt remmebr, or charlie has the time leap power and injected himself into desmonds past. Bare with me, if desmond has these flashes now, maybe desmond was future desmond when he met jack in the stadium, and told him to beleive in miracles. It would make sens, becaus eif charlie is "real" in hurleys future its almost as if you can transcend time and space. People dont talk about it much but wasnt charlie with eko when the swan imploded, remmeber he lost his hearing from the dynamite, but then in the next episode charlie was on the beach something doesnt add up...
But wasn't her number different, and that's why Des had to go get it from her in person after she moved?
memphis wasnt that pennys address before she moved thats why desmond didnt have the number. before through the looking glass the only time we had seen penny in the present was when she talkked to the guys in the artic station at the end of season two. And if her adress was differnt when desmond got out of jail that is concrete proof that dan did in fact change the timeline, because his visit this last week to penny was before he got out of prison, but he did tell her to keep that number no matter what, he didnt say not to move, around here you can take your phone number from house to house
link me to that lospedia page im curious to what time period her different adress was from, because if it was from right after he got out of jail, that was after he told her not to change her number and she seemed to be in the very same house on christmas eve 2004 as 1996, desmond must have gotten out of jail between 1996 and 2000
memphis you found the smoking gun that time was in fact changed this week congrats, those letters were written while desmond was in jail, he was in jail for something he did in the military so he would have already known penny's new address by the time he got to jail, very nice catch. That would lead me to think desmond never went to the auction the first time around... and it definetly seemed like she was in the same place in 1996 as 2004 so why would desmond send letters to her old address in say 1999?
That's what I'm wondering 2Costa. Is this evidence that there was a 1996 where Desmond got her phone number and there was a 1996 where he did? Beats me. But it's not like it was hard to figure out there are 2 Penny addresses. I wonder if we could get TPTB to answer this one? Off to ABC to post.
Oh, I see what you're saying now. :-)
But those letters were written to Desmond when he was in jail which was AFTER 1996 Desmond got her new address. The 2004 Desmond already knew her address and probably already knoew the number to call. But his 2004 consciousness was AWOL at the time. Hi 1996 consciousness was the one that was acting in 2004, so 1996 Desmond had to get the info to make the call to Penny that would restore their consciousnew(es) back to their proper timelines.
Capcom-Here is the link to my updated/changed blog:
Ellen's Page
I had to take down some of the images, so I decided to start from scratch-
Anyway, I'll probably do longer posts there and refer to them here from now on...
Thanks for letting me know about that!
xxoo
Also, it's not just the exposure to radiation/eletctormagnetism and leaving the island that is required to cause the problem it's those 2 things plus straying from the exact bearings.
So Sayid and Frank left the island at the same bearings as Desmond but ehy hadn't had the exposure Desmond had. And Minkowski may have had the exposure and when he and his buddy tried to get to the island, they weren't following the right bearings and so they suffered the side effects.
Marking a spot for emails....
xxoo
Sayid's Girl-
Thanks for the heads up about blogger-thought I was losing it there for a while!!:D
xxoo
I think I've discovered that I enjoy the theorizing much more than I enjoy watching the actual show. So if I promise not to complain about the parts I don't like, can I stick around?
My biggest question is whether it means they're all jumping about in time or just Desmond and Dan?
Is the reason all the 815 passengers survived the crash that they had something that connected their past and present? Were these their constants?
Sawyer's letter.
Charlie's guitar and ring.
Kate's toy airplane.
Rose had Bernard's wedding band.
Boone and Shannon had each other.
Michael had Walt.
Walt had Vincent.
Jack had his father's body and became a bit unhinged when it disappeared.
Sayid had Nadia's picture.
Claire had her baby.
Sun and Jin had each other (even if they didn't want each other that much at the time).
Locke - he's a bit tricky - can't think what his would be.
Hurley - another tricky one - the numbers were present both in his past and on the island though - he just didn't know it yet.
Oh, I guess Locke's could be Rose. Because if Dan could use Desmond as his constant, it must not have needed to be a really strong connection.
I don't personally believe anyone has come unstuck in time other than Desmond and Minkowski and possibly Brandon though we never got his whole story. I think one reason Desmond was affected but not Sayid and Frank is a) Dan says only some people have side effects and Des is in that unlucky group or b) because Desmond arrived on the Island by sea vs. by air as did Minkowski and Brandon and Danielle's team. This is pure speculation, but maybe Desmond's problem was that he left on a different bearing from the one he and his sailboat entered on.
I don't think anyone else who leaves the Island is going to have this problem. It would just confuse things too much. So I think there's going to be something different about the way any 815ers or Others or Freighties leave the Island that prevents becoming unstuck.
I also don't think Dan is unstuck. I think that's just a message he left himself in 1996 in case of emergency. I don't think the emergency has hit though.
As for the letters to Penny, here is the timeline:
Des and Penny live in crap neighborhood because Des is paying.
Des dumps Penny.
Des joins Army.
Des starts becoming unstuck and his 1996 consciousness travels to Dec. 2004.
1996 Des calls Penny from Army base. Old phone number works, but Penny says she's moved.
1996 Des visits Dan in Oxford, learns he needs a constant, tries to call Penny and finds number disconnected.
1996 Des tracks down Charles Widmore who gives Des Penny's address -- 423 Cheyne Walk.
1996 Des visits Penny at 423 Cheyne Walk and gets new phone number. Says he'll call in 8 years.
Des is court-martialed and sent to prison. Before leaving for prison Penny has access to his copy of Our Mutual Friend and hides love letter in it.
While in prison Des sends letters to Penny at different Knightbridge address.
Des gets out of prison approx. 2000-2001.
Charles Widmore shows Des he intercepted all the letters [Maybe this is the key. Maybe Widmore tells Des she's moved so he can intercept the mail.]
Des flies to LA and meets Libby who gives him boat. Des begins to train.
2001 - Penny finds Des in LA, learns about race. Des meets Jack
2001 - Des crashes on Island
etc.
Haven't we heard of a Brandon before somewhere? Of course, that wouldn't necessarily mean anything - they reuse names a lot.
I really meant when they arrived at the island rather than what would happen if they left. If they've been headed this way the whole time, then perhaps the early flashbacks weren't so much about redemption as about each of them finding their constant.
But now that you mention it (and I'm sure I'm not the first to bring it up with 447 comments) --
Jack of the future seemed an awful lot like he was in the same shape as Desmond.
He kept getting confused about whether his father was alive. He seemed desperate to call someone - whom we found out was Kate - who would have been an anchor of sorts - present both in his present/future life and his past/island life. And Jack hung out a good bit in the swan - so he'd have gotten a good bit of EM radiation.
They didn't let Kate in the hatch much you'll remember and Locke kept Claire and Aaron out altogether I think. So both of them might not have experienced the side effects.
What if Jack didn't want to see Aaron because it triggers his condition somehow? Kate's constant is Jack's variable or something.
maven: I don't recall anything ebing said about the island when 1996 Desmond was in 2004. As for Minkowski being more aware of things, well he is Minkowski ;-) Seriously though, this is the kind of place where I just assume things to make it plausible. I had asumed that those on the ship had explained things to him
I agree with lostit about Penny's address.
Desmond helped Dan get a breakthrough with his experiment, when it seems noone else was on his side... to me that would be pretty important.
Dan mentioned exposure to raditation/electromagnetism, which we know Desmond has had due to the Swan hatch. That seems to be the reason to me why Desmond was affected but not Sayid and Frank (or anyone else from when 815 first crashed - though I like your list of constants lost2010)
lostit i agree with your logic above, but the letters are the smoking gun not the phone number, like i said, the way 1996 desmond was smiling when 2004 desmond was talking to penny seemed to strongly imply desmond would remember these events, so wouldnt desmond have been planning for christmas eve 2004 this whole time weve known him on the island? would he have questioned the swan and his mission, would he have even taken his race around the world?its hard to think so...
it makes sense that chuck widmore had all the jailhouse letters if desmond didnt know she moved or her new adress they probably were fowarded to chuck, so why write leeter to an address you know is wrong?
lockes constant is his missing kidney scar and his wheelchair?
and cooper for locke, since cooper was the real tom sawyer he could be james fords constant as well. Dave could be hurleys
only thing you left out memphis is des had an unstuck experience back in the bad neighborhood days. DID widmore tell desmond that penny moved when he showed him the letters?
all this stuff thats happened has renewed my thought that jack might turn out to be jacob, if he ever makes it back to the island he prolly be old and beardy...
for the record aaron got some shots of the green, but did claire get any when jullieete went and got her stash from under the tree, i cant remember?
I'm not sure Des was unstuck prior to his Army days. Yes his 1995/6 self knew about things his 2004 self knew about, but it didn't seem to me to be the case that his 2004 self was inhabiting his 1995 body the same way his 1996 body inhabited his 2004 body. Boy I'm getting confused now.
I'd say that Locke's constant before and after the crash was his beloved case-o-knives! :-D
I agree, it seemed like Dan didn't have many/any friendlies around, so Des would be a good choice if he thought that he would ever know how to contact Des again.
Tx for the new blog Ellen.
Of course, his knives, why not?
--------------------
So does it all go back to the rumored idea to call the show "The Circle"
It does seem like Desmond lost his mind because he was stuck in a causal loop that needed closing. Penny's out there in the world waiting to see if Desmond will call on Christmas Eve of 2004 and Desmond has to complete the loop so that the call will be made. Because a piece of him already knows that the call was made. And his mind wouldn't be able to stand up to not making the call. It would fragment like Roland and Jake in the Dark Tower series.
I'm not sure why they had Penny move more than once it seems,but as long as she didn't change her number like Desmond asked, it didn't matter where she lived when he called.
Like you said memphish it was lucky she could keep her number for 8 years. But maybe that's easier to do in London. I think in some areas in the states you can pay to keep your number if you want.
2004 Desmond may have been "zoned out" in the jungle when he time tripped into his past after turning the fail safe key.
Lost2010 said:It does seem like Desmond lost his mind because he was stuck in a causal loop that needed closing.
I like it. It really all comes down to Dark Tower doesn't it. :)
Even though we got some big pieces of this puzzle, I still think we're missing something. Who knew what when in which time line and in whose consciousness...jeez, I'm so confused! LOL
Memphish: The Penny Letters time line is very helpful. But when Des has his flashes to the crap apartment time, didn't he remember things from the future...like the soccer game, and asks Donovan about time travel. He also recognizes Charlie from the island. 1996 Des tells Dan about the island, but he doesn't remember it...he was just told about it.
And why does 2004 Des go back to this particular time of his life in 1996? Is it random? Or is it because it's when Dan is working on his experiments at Queens College, and Des is part of that?
I also like Lostit2010's theory that everyone on 815 has a Constant. But Des is the only one of the group that seems to be actually tripping around, and no one else is exhibiting this.
Memphish: I like your possible explanation as to why Des and not Sayid and others...he approached by sea (as did Minkowski and Danielle's group). I agree that if everyone starting getting unstuck, we'd all be going bonkers trying to keep everything straight!
maven
I think Dan's note in his journal has probably been there since 1996.
I have a hard time believing it just magically appeared.
If the red "if anything goes wrong use desmond as your constant" was there then that would mean the loop of desmond going to oxford would have already happened, and maybe daniels brain is fried when he gets to the island, but desmonds mind was pretty sound when he first saw daniel, why didnt desmond recognize daniel when he first saw him on the island two days before he went to the freighter, desmond wasnt having any amnesia.The 1996 meeting with daniel would have been memorable enough to remember, seeing a rat travel mentally through time isnt something id forget too quickly. And as ive said before instead of waiting for his replacement in the swan wouldnt have desmond been expecting to meet this sayid he had flashed to in 1996?
maven, it was 2004 Des that went back in time to the crap apartment after the purpling. That's why he remebered the island. The consciousness of 2004 Des had been on the island.
But 2004 Des didn't go back in time to 1996. Instead, it was 1996 Des that went forward in time to 2004. It was 1996 Des that went to see Dan. 1996 Desmond hadn't been to the island yet, so he had no memories of it, just what he was told when his consciousness travelled to 2004.
I have no idea where 2004 Des was when 1996 Des was in 2004. I hope they explain that sometime.
Maven, Des was remembering the future at the start of my timeline, i.e. crap apartment time :) but I don't know exactly how to understand that versus what happened in The Constant.
He also blacked out in the road in his Desmond is a monk flashback. Catatonic time shifting state? Too much whiskey? You make the call.
i think daniels wording shows the timeline isnt exactly going on script "if something goes wrong" if everything was going according to plan then it wouldnt be wrong?
2costa, Maybe you get amnesia about the time travel events later and that whole period of time in 1996 when his consciousness travelled became just a blur. Maybe he remembered having some odd dreams but not much of anything else.
Des stopped tripping when he found his constant.
I wasn't thinking that they'd all still be tripping. I was thinking of the early days immediately after the crash - the first set of flashbacks - where Kate was desparate to find that case (with the airplane) and Jack ran through the jungle looking for his father etc. etc.
In the early days they all kept talking about how they felt like they were losing their minds. I thought maybe you could take this episode and apply it back to that.
But that may be a stretch.
----
Memphis - You know me and the Dark Tower. . . .
Thanks, lostit! I think it's beginning to make sense in my 2008 mind! LOL
I like that thought Lost2010. :-D
memphish
This is how I think Penny's address change and phone number change went.
Des calls her from the army camp she has moved but hasn't changed her number.
After this call she doesn't want to bothered by him again and changes her number.
That's why it's disconnected when he calls her again.
He knows she's moved so he goes to Widmore for her new address (actually I think he asked for her number but Widmore wouldn't give t to him. I think)anyway he goes to her new address to get her new number from her and asks her not to change.
She does however seemed to have moved again since then who knows why but she kept her number like he asked.
I can buy that scenario, Sayid'sgirl!
I'm playing the game on my PS3 and I'm stuck in the cave! Any hints? LOL
It becomes maddening every time I try to dip into this time travel pool . . . let's see if I'm starting to get the hang of it (from your comments).
Are Freighter Des and 1994 Des switching bodies? Or is it just that Freighter Des slips into a coma and his consciousness slips back to his 1994 body (sharing it with 1994 Des), then when he comes back his memory is punked by the misfiring synapses?
Because if they are switching places then the memory thing makes perfect sense to me. 1994 Desmond didn't go to Penny's - that was Freighter Desmond. 1994 Desmond was hanging out in comatose Freighter Desmond and when he slipped back to 1994 all he knew was that he was not where he remembered leaving himself.
Ugh, I knew I shouldn't try to untangle it - I always just confuse myself even further.
lostit - So, are you saying that episode 4.05 wasn't about 2004 Desmond - we were pretty much watching 1996 Desmond the whole time.
So, one last question and then I'll either have it figured out or I'm just going to figure my brain isn't wired for time travel.
At the very end, when Desmond is talking to Penny on the phone - which one is that?
lost2010
On the helicopter when Des grabs his seat 1996 Desmond's consciousness had just been to 2004 after that it was always 1996 Desmond's consciousness working, 2004 Desmond's consciousness was never in play. They didn't show it but I'm assuming Desmond would be in a coma state in 2004 like Minkowski when his 1996 consciousness went back to 1996. Then 1996 Desmond's consciousness would come back to 2004 which I assume 1996 Desmond would be in a coma state (remember he was lying on the floor one time when his consciousness went back to 1996)It wasn't until Desmond's 1996 consciousness talked to Penny on the phone on the freighter in 2004 that Desmond's 1996 consciousness returned to 1996 (it became unstuck)and Desmond's 2004 consciousness was able to be in 2004. There was never a 2004 consciousness until the phone call.
Well apparently while I was typing my last post lostit had already explained it. But I guess she deleted it by the time i posted. But reading lost2010's comments it seems she said the same thing I did.
Actually I should have said:
There was never a 2004 consciousness until after the phone call.
You know, I might go back and rewatch with that in mind. Because I kept thinking they were switching bodies and I stayed thoroughly confused.
So essentially, 2004 Des was having a stroke (oversimplifying I know). And during the stroke, 1994 Desmond came forward and took over his body every now and then.
And when 1994 Desmond left his own body - it just kind of stood there or passed out or something? Because it seemed at times like there were days passing between the 1994 flashes. Surely he'd have been in a mental ward if he'd been catatonic for days.
Or is this where the time ratio comes in - 1994 Desmond was only being gone from his own time for a few seconds while it seemed like he was spending several minutes in 2004.
Hey ellen
You're welcome for the heads up. It took me awhile to figure out what was going on. I posted the same comment 3 times. :) I don't have a clue why it does that. I have that old broads memory and kept forgetting to go to the newest comments to post especially when I'm behind.
Oh and thanks for the new link to your blog.
Good work on the 1996 and 2004 Dez, everyone!
OK, I have watched it a couple more times and I have to say to Diggity (I think it was Diggity?) -- Dan does seem pretty self-absorbed when he is trying to write down what he just figured out on the board, and he's ignoring Dez's problems for the moment. But I'm still gonna overlook it for now, cuz I like Dan, and cuz Dan probably didn't realize that Dez was in a critical position at that moment. :-) But I see what you mean now, for sure.
lost2010 said:
Or is this where the time ratio comes in - 1994 Desmond was only being gone from his own time for a few seconds while it seemed like he was spending several minutes in 2004.
Yes I think this is where the time ratio comes in. When Des left and went to 2004 in Dan office then came back to 1996(remember he colapsed and Dan had to put him in the chair) Dan said he had been gone 75 minutes but Des said he had been in 2004 for 5 minutes.
Also I don't think Des always came back to the exact time in 1996 each time which would make it appear he had been in a coma for days. But it would only minutes.
I hope I didn't confuse with that last part. Because essentially I think you're understanding it.
BTW, thanks for your patience sayidsgirl.
Dan has that 'anything for my research' sort of feel to him. He reminds me of Juliet in that way. I'm not sure exactly how far Juliet will go for her research and I'm starting to get that same idea about Dan. Although, I like them both.
sayidsgirl - So, you think it varies? One time 75 minutes in 1996 = 5 minutes in 2004; but the next time 30 seconds in 1996 might = 15 minutes in 2004? It's variable, not constant.
But here's what I still don't get - the 2004 Desmond is the one that got the radiation (like the 1996 Eloise did) - why was it the 1996 Desmond that got unstuck instead of 2004 Desmond leaping into the future? Or is it more faith than science?
That's a god question. I don't know why 1996 Des is the one jumping time when he hadn't been exposed to the radiation yet. Just speculating, here -- maybe 2004 Des jumped forward in time (and we just didn't see it - where was his 2004 consciousness during this whole time anyway?) and that left a void that sucked in the consciousness of whatever time Des was thinking about at the time. He was looking at the picture of him and Penny so maybe he was replaying some of his memories in his head. During the first jump, 1996 Desmond was dreaming - maybe he was dreaming about Penny before the jump? OK that's probably a stretch, but I guess it's as possible as anything else we've seen onthis show.
I hate typos! I meant to say "good" question.
lostit - For a second there I thought you were saying that it was a matter of faith after all. :)
memphish said...
I also don't think Dan is unstuck. I think that's just a message he left himself in 1996 in case of emergency. I don't think the emergency has hit though.
I don't wholly disagree here but I have to wonder about Dan crying when he saw the 815 "freckage" and why he is having a memory problem. There could be a simple explanation for it, but I just have to wonder if it is related to him being unstuck. I wonder if 2004 Dan is traveling to the future which is why he was crying but didn't know why- because he couldn't fully remember the future, and that is what and why he and Charlotte were working on with the card memory game? Maybe he will stop being unstuck now that he is on the island and has found Desmond who was supposed to be his constant (of course now Des is gone again). Maybe Des' incident is what triggered his memory that if anything went wrong Des was supposed to be his constant and that's why he went to his old journal.
Wow! Great stuff continuing over here at all hours of the day and night.
I re-read Slaughterhouse Five today and did a roughshod breakdown of some similarities and differences with LOST in general and with Desmond's time traveling in The Constant in particular. You can find it at my blog.
BTW, I literally read the book from 12:30-6:00 today with breaks for life like chatting over here. I'll bet reading time was 3 hours. It's only 215 small pages.
lost2010
Hey no problem.
I don't know for sure but I would say it's variable.
But here's what I still don't get - the 2004 Desmond is the one that got the radiation (like the 1996 Eloise did) - why was it the 1996 Desmond that got unstuck instead of 2004 Desmond leaping into the future? Or is it more faith than science?
Desmond's 2004 consciousness was never in the past to leap into the future. Desmond's 1996 consciousness was the one that was getting stuck in the future and had to be unstuck.
Desmond only has one consciousness that's why when his 1996 consciouness is in 1996 his 2004 self is in a coma like state and when his 1996 consciousness in 2004 his 1996 self is in a coma like state.
I guess you could say that Desmond's body in each time is a host to his consciousness as it is time traveling.
I don't think it matters when the radiation exposure occurs the fact that he was exposed is all that matters. And then being exposed to the effects of the island caused the time travel.
When Des went to Dan's lab Eloise's consciousness was in the future at that time. It was when he used the equations the Des gave him that he was able to unstick Eloise's consciousness and bring it back to 1996 present day. She had been ahead in time for at least an hour because she had learned the maze.
You're losing me again (I don't really have the chops for time travel I don't think). I have to think of them as two separate people or I start to space out and start wondering when Sawyer's going to show up without his shirt. I don't like the boxers though - the jeans and no shirt look are my favorite . . . . . . . . . . who's Desmond again? :)
Although you know, I did like cleaned up Desmond in the bomber jacket. Hmmmm. Maybe there's room in the shallow end of the pool for Desmond after all.
lost2010
Basically you could say there are two Desmond's one in 1996 and one in 2004 and his mind is traveling between the two. His body isn't traveing just his mind.
I think I'm slowly getting it! One thing (among many) that confuses me is that the 2004 Des can only be going back in time and cannot go to the future? I get that the episode was really showing 1996 Des as the "main" Des who was jumping to 2004 Des. A 2004 Des can't be a 2008 Des? But the 2004 Des did get flashes of Charlie's destiny.
And I do understand that we're just talking about Des' mind getting unstuck and not his body. But it's interesting that we get to see a cleaned up version in 1996 and the scruffy, long-haired version in 2004.
Maven, I don't think we know where in time 2004 Des's mind can travel to. We weren't shown what happened to 2004 Des's consciousness. We only saw 1996 Des "traveling" and he was bouncing back and forth between 1996 and 2004.
Thanks, Lostit! It's getting clearer and clearer. Hopefully, more and more pieces of this amazing puzzle will be given to us in the weeks to come.
My mind is reeling from all the time travel discussion. Wow. We really have become quite the think-tank!
I'm amazed by the "constant list", lost2010. Seems plausible to me.
Maybe this is why Ben can't let anyone leave the Island, they would become unstuck in time and not have a constant on the Island and the Real World.
Is this why Jacob called for help? Is Locke or Hurley somehow able to be an off Island constant for Jacob, and since he's Ben's source of future info that's why Ben needs to get rid of all the possible constants for Jacob (lest he become stabilized off Island)?
As far as changing the future...Has everyone seen Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban? Events there unfold without change. The only thing that changes in the story is that we understand events with a new perspective, that's all. But future events cause past events, and there is no choice but to follow through with future events.
Ack, I'm sounding more confused just trying to explain without spoiling the movie. But what I'm saying is that Dan HAD to teach Eloise the maze because he already did it.
As Capt. Janeway once said: Temporal Mechanics always makes my head hurt. Ouch!
So is it our belief that since Desmond has talked to Penny and become again his 2004 consciousness that recognizes Sayid that he won't become unstuck in time again unless he goes back to the Island on the wrong bearing or goes back and tries to leave again?
What if he gets unstuck again and he goes to a time before he knew Penny, say his childhood? What happens then?
Desmond kept going back and forth between about 1 week (a week in order I might add) in 1996 and a few hours in 2004. Did Minkowski and Brandon similarly go between one specific point in the past and the present?
Just a few light questions for a Sunday morning. :)
A thought: What if Dan didn't write the note about Desmond being his constant in 1996? What if he found out something since then that made him believe that Charlotte was no longer reliable as his constant? Dan was awfully clingy with Charlotte. As I said, just a thought.
I finally figured out that why Brandon sounded familiar. I was getting the name mixed up with Brennan who took the keys in the distress call.
I kind of think that Dan is studying the same thing Rousseau was supposed to be studying with her team. That may be how they exposed to their inital EM dose. Danielle may have been kept away from the lab before the trip because she was pregnant.
If anyone is interested Steve and I will be recording "Live" this afternoon 3/1/08 at Talkshoe at 1:30. We again couldn't get together this weekend at the studio so he'll be joining me via the telephone, and we'd love everyone's input on the show.
Just head over to talkshoe.com for all the info.
Memphish said: ...is it our belief that since Desmond has talked to Penny and become again his 2004 consciousness that recognizes Sayid...
I'm not 100% sure that Des actually remembered Sayid yet. He seems to be saying his name almost as a thank you for connecting him to Penny. He has been told Sayid's name and is now using it to be nice to him. Instead of screaming "I don't know you", he's thanking this person by using his name.
Amused2bhere said: Is Locke or Hurley somehow able to be an off Island constant for Jacob, and since he's Ben's source of future info that's why Ben needs to get rid of all the possible constants for Jacob (lest he become stabilized off Island)?
I really like this idea. Can someone change their Constant to someone they like or has more meaning to them? Ben's worried that his loss of control of this island might include not being Jacob's Constant anymore.
FYI: Everyone should read "The Heart and The Head by Luhks" explanation of time in "The Constant" and the whole series. It's posted at DarkUFO. Memphish, there's a lot of Vonnegut in the article. Very enlightening and well-stated.
3/02/2008 12:51:00 PM
Darn! Missed the live talkshoe 'cast. I got online too late to join in.
Oh well. I was wondering when we'd hear from our own beloved podcasters on this week's episode...
While watching this weeks show, my mind must have processed all the time shifting,because I thoroughly enjoyed it.It made sense to me.
It could get scary on the Island when the Losties get in arguments with one another, and say like litte kids; "you're not my constant anymore."
I read this somewhere else, but liked it. What if Ben's constant is his little wooden Annie doll?
darn you blogger, I had a comment about how I like amused's HP analogy, and that I had earlier read the Luhks piece and it too sad what I had always been thinking but hadn't expressed very well - these things always happened we just never saw this side of them before.
Yeah, I really like that Annie doll idea. He can take it with him where ever he time-travels, in his Man-bag. :-)
Yes it does explain the man-bag doesn't it Capcom.
I loved Luhks analysis and Big Mouth's at Eye M Sick as well. I think Luhks is dead on about blending the intellectual and the emotional and still ending up at the same place. Of course the notion that everything is already set in place for all eternity brings us back to the question of free will. Sounds like we need a philosophy episode. Looks from the preview like we're getting Raiders of the Lost Ark instead. Which is fine by me.
fate vs chance and free will is what i was saying about chess vs. backgammon on the show. Backgammon is the game of chance because of the dice, but chess is just a game of cause and effect(the only chance that comes into it is when your opponent makes a mistake or sucks), interestingly both have been featured more than once on the show and both having the yin/yang black and white pieces. Locke had to beat the chess on the computer and jack played with ben in missing pieces, and if you want to take it a step further doesn't the book "through the looking glass" have a major chess theme. Locke has played backgammon with sawyer and walt. As the doctor jack is more of a chess guy because he like firm consequences and cause and effect and doesnt like faith or chance, whereas Locke is a master of all games remmeber the mousetrap he was playing. Moustrap is the ultimate fusion of cause and effect and chance, each roll of the dice gets yo one step closer to completeing the ultimate cause/effect machine the mouse trap. In that episode didnt locke use a mouse trap like device to try to open the hatch, the lever?
I've just watched episode 5 in the UK and I have to say !!!!!
They can't make Hawai look like a British Army Base.
And why is Fischer Stevesn name in the main credits if he is only in it for a few minutes ?
Going to read the very large amount of comments.
The other thing that was slightly suspicious is how Sayid knew the area code for London, it had changed, at least once, between 1996 and 2004.
Oh, I didn't even think of the Annie doll. I'll have to borrow that one for my list.
Any chance the eye in Hurley's cabin being 1996 Where am I now, Desmond?
It's dark enough...it's wild enough...
So, I'm going to try to link and I'm sure it will turn out badly. But here goes:
link = photo
Is she wearing a wedding band? Or not? This jumped out at me at the time and I've been waiting for someone else to bring it up. But I haven't seen it anywhere.
Okay - I think it may actually have posted. Although I seem to have stuck an extra "= photo" in there somehow.
Anyway, if it works it should be a picture of Penny.
zort it was 2004 sayid calling 2004 london whats fishy about that he was only gone three months?the area code would be the same
I saw that too. European women usually wear them on their right hands.
yes penny is wearing an engagement ring and wedding band in 2004, in 1996 chuck widmore was like "let penny tell u herself how shes moving on"
Takes A Village said: Any chance the eye in Hurley's cabin being 1996 Where am I now, Desmond?
Great idea! When I first that eye, my gut reaction was Desmond because of the texture of the skin. And if it's 1996 Des he definitely would be wide-eyed, almost frightened!
Lost 2010: According to wiki, in the UK wedding bands are worn like those in the US...on the left hand. So I don't think it's a wedding band. It was highlighted a lot in the scene. And she was in a living room that had a lot of Christmas presents under the tree...which could connote family (other than friends). But if she's spent the last 3 years looking for Desmond, I don't think any relationship, let alone a marriage, would last! LOL
I so do hope you're right Maven.
I couldn't decide whether they were going to have a time twist in which she's married to Desmond in the scene with the Christmas tree somehow.
(See this is where I get a little speculation happy - )
But she was engaged when she met Desmond at the stadium right?
I thought maybe she married that guy and he died in the interim somehow and she was just one of those women who never stopped wearing her rings.
According to Lostpedia, Penny "then learned that Desmond had been told by her father that she had given up hope and had become engaged to another man. She neither confirmed nor denied this, only stating that they hadn't set a wedding date yet. ("Live Together, Die Alone")
As usual, it's ambiguous! LOL
maven - Of course it is. I forgot what show I was watching for a minute.
Okay, in this one - she didn't have the same rings and that's the same hand -
Penny's other phone call
But it looks like she was woken up from her bed. Personally, I take off my rings before I get into bed!
True, true. I don't, but I'm sure many people do.
Can't find any other screencaps that show her hands. There's one where she meets Desmond at the stadium where she has her hand on the car window but it's not the right angle.
I hope she didn't marry someone else for what it's worth - I just thought it was odd that they focused in on the rings when she's declaring her undying love for Desmond. At first I thought maybe it was some ring Desmond gave her but we watched that ring get tossed into the water I suppose.
I believe I'll try the episode where they have the crappy apartment. Is that Flashes?
No rings here either, but this is from Flashes when she and Desmond are together. So there goes my idea that it's some non-engagement type ring Desmond gave her.
Penny's hands
It's late LoCo's and I haven't had a chance to catch up on today's comments, but just wanted to let you all know, in case it hasn't been mentioned, that J. Wood is up. It's a long one, but not as abstract as last week's. ;)
maybe she has the rings til demsmond actually talks to her and that changes the 1996 present, maybe desmond will get better at his flashes and go back and change the whole engagement, maybe it'll be like ground hogs day, where desmond trys to fufill his duty with penny and the island in a senerio that gives everyone what they want...but has try after try
2Costa, I know Sayid is well travelled, but so am I and I wouldn't know the area code for New York or Washington for example.
You would have to assume that Sayid had lived in London for some time or phoned London regularly to get the numnber.
All I'm really trying to say is that the TPTB had to get round the problem of the area code changing so they just chose to ignore it and gave Sayid the job of remembering it.
Regarding to the trigger for the time travel, here is my take on it :-
The helicopter veered off slightly from the true bearing, this is what caused the time travel event. That is why Daniel said it was so important to stay on the bearing.
The storm is always around the island, caused by the electromagnetism, and will prevent anyone from leaving alive unless they find a constant or leave on the fixed bearing.
The boat and the helicopter could not stay on the fixed bearing because the wind, sea, etc threw them off course. However a submarine could stay on that bearing as the storm would not affect it if it was at a sufficient depth.
Good Morning, happy March, Locos!
Desmond in Jacob's cabin? hmm, could be!
Zort, I think you've got it. Although I think if you veer off the fixed bearing your time shift would be more severe, not deadly. But yours is a good analysis.
Rings: my mom never (ever!) took her engagement ring or wedding ring off, and I don't wear mine at all (special occasions only, and then they go back in the box). I thought European men wore their rings on their right hands, not the women. I had a college professor from Chile who wore his band on the right. Anyone from UK can clear this up?
Perhaps children aren't affected because they have not lived long enough to jump around and notice the difference. The very young ones can't tell the difference between now and next week anyway! They have a different concept of time.
I spoke with Chucklez recently. He's going to need surgery on his knee ('scoping' he called it). It's really been swollen and painful lately. He asks if all of us who pray would say one for him. Other than that, all is well in Alabama.
Hi, I'm from the UK and both my wife and I wear our rings on the regulation left hand. i've not heard of people using the right hand for wedding rings at all.
We both wear ours most of the time apart from when slobbing around the house or when sleeping.
I've heard some actors will wear their own wedding rings on the right fingers as they don't want to remove them totally.
Happy Monday LoCos. :-)
Zort said: "The storm is always around the island, caused by the electromagnetism, and will prevent anyone from leaving alive unless they find a constant or leave on the fixed bearing." I really agree! And I also like how someone somewhere described it as an "event horizon", which makes a lot of sense (and made me feel dumb that I didn't think of that already).
Here's how Wiki explains it: "...an event horizon is a boundary in spacetime, an area surrounding a black hole [or a super-electromagnetic island in our case], beyond which events cannot affect an outside observer." Also on pinpointing the locale..."For the case of the horizon around a black hole, observers stationary with respect to a distant object will all agree on where the [event] horizon is."
On the show, people seem to know where the event horizon (or the heavy EMF field) is, but not the island, exactly. This kind of reminds me of the boat hanging around outside the island's event horizon, waiting for orders or for something to happen, like mentioned last week. It's also similar to how they seem to set off for the EMF horizon, get there, and then all heck breaks loose in the storm horizon, and once they are through it, the clouds break and they see the island, as did Naomi.
If you go further into Wiki, to acoustic horizons, it also sounds like TPTB might also be using this idea to some extent: "With an acoustic horizon (also known as 'sonic horizon')...events behind an acoustic horizon can modify the effective horizon position and allow information to escape from a horizon-bounded region." EMFs...accoustics...related?
Well, that's my science report for the day. :-)
P.S. On what I said about not knowing where the island is above...it seems like they can see it, until they get into the event horizon storm, and then they lose bearing on the island itself. The way Minkowski talked, it sounded as if they can see it from the boat, and can begin to row to it visually, and then things happen, etc.
Just wanted to clear up that I wasn't saying that no one can see the island ouside the storm horizon.
Whew! I always have a tough time catching up on Mondays. I'm usually off the grid for the weekends. :) Great ideas all around! I'm looking forward to watching the episode again this week. I was going to watch this weekend, but Mr. Mel's been sick, and all he wants to do is lay around and watch cartoons.
I did wrestle the remote away long enough to watch Torchwood on Saturday however - guest stars this week included both Charles Widmore and Ms. Klugh! They were in kahoots. :)
Morning LoCos. Yesterday it was almost 80 degrees in Memphis; tomorrow it might snow. In the meantime we might get tornados. I'm ready for winter to be over.
2Costa -- nice post about Chess vs. Backgammon; causation vs. chance; free will vs. fate. I like it and agree you're on to something there. Maybe Locke's main problem is he can't decide which guy he really is. He's the only character we've seen play both right?
I don’t think Penny is married. I did notice the ring and frankly was fearful the entire time she was on the phone that a husband and child would walk in. But I think if she was supposed to be married they’d put the finger on her left hand to clue in us mostly clueless Americans. Besides I doubt a husband would like it if she had a picture of herself with Desmond on the bedside table.
Sayid was in London when he was intercepted by the CIA and sent to Australia. I don't think he'd have that much difficulty remember the codes. Communications is his life.
The idea of Desmond's eye is interesting, but I'm pretty sure Jorge Garcia said it wasn't.
I agree that getting slightly off course may well be what triggered Desmond, but I don’t understand why it wouldn’t have triggered Frank and Sayid as well. I still like my it’s the wrong bearing for Desmond because he came in by boat vs. air theory.
capcom said : it seems like they can see it, until they get into the event horizon
That could fit in with my theory that light is being bent by the island so if you look at it straight on, then you are not actually seeing where it is, only the light from the island that has been bent away from it.
I agree that getting slightly off course may well be what triggered Desmond, but I don’t understand why it wouldn’t have triggered Frank and Sayid as well
I think it is
Large Dose of Radiation + Being off Course = Time Travel Mayhem
But what about Des's 2004 consciousness time travel back to 1995/96 that occurred when he turned the key? He didn't get off course then, but he time traveled.
I think perhaps the barrier they pass through is a smaller dose of whatever hit Des when he turned the key and whatever Dan hit Eloise with. Because Des had previous exposure he is more susceptible than Frank or Sayid at this point which is why he alone suffered the side effects. I'd also theorize that there's something on the Freighter, something that Minkowski and Brandon were in charge of operating that emits high levels of radiation or electro-magnetism. It's probably some device designed to detect the Island with it's unique properties. It must be very localized or focused though because on a ship that size you might surmise that Frank would have received enough exposure to affect him. I also think it has to be something more than normal radio equipment or former communications officer Sayid would have had a Minkowski experience.
Finally, I think Dan better find some way to get off the Island other than through the barrier, or he better make sure Desmond is still on the Freighter when he does or Dan will be the next person with a fatal nosebleed.
I agree with that too Zort, the EM field bending the light like a gravitational lens effect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lensing
Me to Memphish, about the barrier/horizon EMF being similar to the failsafe emission. Also that there could be some funky EM equipment on the boat that Minkowski and (dead)friend could have been in charge of...that would be interesting. They also might have spent their careers working with that kind of EM equipment, hence why they happened to start "jumping" on the rowboat.
Be warned, if you don't want to read a really huge SPOILER...stay away from the March 10-16 issue of T.V. guide. The article about "Lost".
Makes me so darn mad that i read it. You try to be careful when reading things about "Lost", but this one was just plain unfair. It's huge and it is right there in the second paragraph. Grrr!!
Thanks for the warning Martysbaby. Maybe you could try killing that particular brain cell that now houses that information. Try exposing yourself to a large EMP and moving backwards in time or try margaritas.
I think it is
Large Dose of Radiation + Being off Course = Time Travel Mayhem
I agree with you zort70. I don't think anyone on or off the island will have a problem coming or going unless they have this combination.
I think the only person that we know who might, have this problem would be Rose if she had radiation treatment for her cancer. But she has her constant with her, Bernard.
I think you only need a constant if you have those combinations of radiation and being off course. And that's only if you travel in years. Daniel said sometimes it's only hours.
Could Bernard really be Rose's constant. They've only known each other a couple of years. What happens when she time travels earlier than that?
Stupid me..........it says in smaller print on the cover "burning questions answered".
Dang it anyway!
I finally made it through J. Wood's article. Dang my head hurts now. But I do like the tesseract ending. I'll need to watch again to see if I agree it occurred.
I'm doing more research tomorrow on the casual LOST viewer and their response to The Constant. I'll report in with my findings.
memphish said:
But what about Des's 2004 consciousness time travel back to 1995/96 that occurred when he turned the key? He didn't get off course then, but he time traveled.
FWIW This is what I think. They are two separate instances and non related other than, I don't think Des would have time traveled in the helicopter if he hadn't turned the fail safe key and got the high dose of electormagnetism.
As far as why he time traveled when he turned the key is a hard one.
The only thing I can think of is the high dose of radiation caused the time travel.(Although you could be right that going through the electromagentism when he arrived on the island may have helped that along but then we'd have to assume he was slightly off course when he arrived.) But to me that would seem like working it backwards. IDK. Daniel said he was conducting his experiments 20 times a day. So he must have been using radiation to make Eloise to time travel.
The first time travel is hard to understand completely. But the helicopter time travel I feel only happened because he turned the key.
You may have a point there memphish. If Rose started her jump before she knew Bernard she couldn't use him as her constant. But the same thing could be said for Desmond.
Morning all:
Sorry for your loss, Martysbaybay! Those unexpected spoilers are killers!
I agree with Memphish that the amount of exposure to radiation/electromagnetism is vital to who does or doesn't time travel. Des was living in the hatch for 3 years and also got the massive dose during the implosion. This would possibly explain why Frank and Sayid didn't trip out. Minkowski and possibly Brandon both worked in a room with alot of radiation and EM exposure (we don't know how long). So I don't really think that coming and going from the island is the trigger. Eloise didn't leave the maze for her experience to happen. Desmond didn't leave the island in "Flashes Before Your Eyes".
Erika Olsen (e) has her recap up at DarkUFO. She makes a lot of excellent points, one of which is that she is accepting that Darlton has "explained" Desmond's time travel and she's willing to just live with some of the inconsistencies. Hopefully, we'll get some more info in some episodes that will fill in the blanks.
Well Martys, that could still have meant PAST burning questions, and that was a very bad move by TV Guide. Dang'em. Try Mr. Spock's Vulcan "forget" pinch on your face, maybe that will work. :-)
martysbaybay
Sorry to hear you got spoiled. I learned my leason earlier this year reading tv guide. If I even see the word Lost or a picture of the cast. I quickly turn the page.
I agree Maven with living with some Scifi inconsistancies, since it's a TV show and not a scientific thesis. As long as what TPTB say on and off the show meshes with what happens in the show, that's good for me. Throw in a bit of actual science to remotely make it realistic and plausible, and I'm happy.
capcom
Anytime some one talks about event horizons I think about the tv show Andromeda. Where Captain Dillon Hunt's ship was stuck on the edge of an event horizon and time was frozen for him for three hundred years. Until a salvage crew pulled his ship out.
to add to the chess thing, and any chess player will tell you that the game itself is like groundhogs day, every time you start a new game you are remembering all the games youve ever played or at least trying to. So your first move is dictated by convention and history and from that point on its firm cause and effect.Black's moves are always a response to whites. In this way chess becomes a circular time loop in a sense.
zort, i think it was stongly implied before that sayid has been a spy for the cia or some wing of us intelligence or someone since he left Iraq, thats why he was in Australia, so someone that works for say interpol knowing londons current area code isnt strange to me...
Ya know Sayidsgirl, I never really watched that show for some reason. Should I? I will if you recommend it. :-) They are always runnning it on SciFi channel, so there are plenty fo chances for me to catch it.
Good point 2costa about the chess.
martysbaybay - sorry about your spoiler ambush! :) Is this an article that's going to be safe to read after this week's episode? Or never?
Okay so it took a little longer than expected but , my Walkthrough
LOST: Via Domus or how I wasted $65 and three hours
is finally up on the message Board.
http://www.drkdesign.com/lostcomm_mb/viewtopic.php?t=790
Sorry it isn't a direct link. It has been a while since I did that.
Now to read all the comments since I have been so busy working on the damn walkthrough... lol
Be Back Later
Namaste
I heard an interesting remark on LOSTCasts. They were referencing the calendar and the fact that days are marked off from Oct-Dec. That means someone has been inhabiting the sickbay and marking off those days all that time. I don't know how that fits in with the Naomi and FF flashes, but it does seem as if this boat has been crewed up for some purpose since at most 1 week after 815 was lost.
Does anyone have any good ideas about why the Hanso family would put that ledger up for auction? Does it have info. on how to get to the Island? Is that how DI got there in the first place? If so, why give that info. up? Was the race course for the Widmore race based on something in the ledger? Speculate away!
I was assuming that this meant that the ship had been there the whole time, but the FF team was brought in later on, sort of recruited, possibly after Minkowski's friend went crazy. They were brought to the ship only after the freckage was discovered, but the ship was out there doing whatever it was doing, ever since the crash.
capcom
you know I hate recommending things because everyone has different tastes. But if you like Star Trek and shows similar to that I think you'd enjoy it. It was either directed or produced by Gene Roddenbury's wife maybe both. I think it was his idea originally but he died before he could bring it to tv.
I never missed an episode. Although I have to admit I wasn't wild about how they ended it.
Also, who besides me thinks that the captain of the freighter might be Charles Widmore?
Ded, I can buy that timeline. Freighter is in the general locale for the Island perhaps waiting for the purpling to pinpoint it? (Mrs. Hawking of course has told Charles Widmore when this event will occur. :D) Then once they have a good idea about where it is, they assemble Naomi's team each for their specific purpose and they either meet the boat in Fiji or are flown out to the boat.
memphish
Those are all good questions. I thought it was odd that the Hanso family was auctioning off the journal. I was assuming it had info about the island and the D.I. could have used it.
I never thought that Widmore might have used the ledger to set up his race course. That's a good idea. I always felt he knew about the island and somehow set up Desmond to get stuck on it.
Maybe he was hoping someone would accidently find the island and he'd have co ordinates on how to get there. This is very interesting.
I like the idea that Daniel has not gotten unstuck yet, but that his note was preparation from coming unstuck when he does try to leave the Island. He knows he'll need a constant that exists at the time he got the machine right and the time he'll be on an island. He knows he's vulnerable because of the radiation.
This does very much make me worry for Rose.
What if this is what happens? Some of the 815ers get off but without Daniel and without Desmond and they start freaking out and most die, but before the O6 plus Aaron die Daniel and or Desmond tells them they need a constant and they somehow connect to one and stop their unstuckness before they die.
memphish
I was thinking maybe the Captain could be Widmore. But I can't see him doing his own dirty work. It's definitely someone Minkowsky was afraid of.
This to me would also exolain the hostility between the Freighter people and The FF squad. They know why they are REALLY out there in the middle of no where, but the FF are just the noobs that nobody wants there in the first place.
melissa-lossa....
If you don't want to be spoiled the article wouldn't be safe to read until after the end of this season at least
Memphish and Capcom....
LOL!!
martysbaybay
By this season do you mean the first 8 episodes? Or the end of the 13 episodes?
Widmore's race could very well have been set up to go past the island because ol' Chuck bought the Ledger in 1996 and Desmond left on the race in 2001.
Also, Could the selling of the Ledger be the beginning Mittlewerk's take over. He has just locked up Hanso and is selling off his stuff because he hasn't been able to find the Island and is moving on to bigger plans, and needs some quick capital.
sayid's girl..........
after all 13 episodes
Haven't you ladies learned? Stay away from your TV Guide! :)
I mentioned Desmond's injections in a different context, but what if it was actually the injections, not the EMP that is what caused Desmond to come unstuck? Frank and Sayid had never had the injections.
The only other persons who have are Ben if the innoculations we saw in TMBTC are the same thing and Charlie who injected himself and shows up after his death to Hurley and presumably Aaron and possibly Claire. This of course assumes that these shots all contain the same thing. At a minimum Desmond and Charlie got the same thing. What they gave Claire and Aaron might be different. I can't believe what Juliet says, so I'm not sure.
martysbaybay
Thanks, guess I'll have to save that one for awhile.
Speaking of Juliet. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I'm actually am starting to like her.
When Charlotte says in the preview if you want to stop him you have to shoot us both. I thought lady you don't know who you're talking to. Even Sawyer said she'd shoot you no problem.
Of course I don't think she's going to shoot though.
I know Sayid's Girl. I hope she'll shoot Charlotte at least. She's my new Juliet. I'm begrudgingly starting to like Juliet too. Maybe she'll just shoot the computer.
Melissa, you had me spinning there for a minute - I thought I was so focused on Charles Widmore up to no good I had missed Klugh in Torchwood. But there's no mention of it at imdb. Were you thinking of Freema?
There's one episode of Andromeda that has Michael Shanks in it, so yeah it's worth watching ;)
In other news, I am an aunty again!
Good afternoon LoCo's. I hate that I only have time to pop in and skim, but that may be how my week will turn out.
You guys make me laugh regarding your Juliet/Charlotte comments. You KNOW I was feeling the same way. I sooo hope Juliet shoots her (how terrible does that make me?), or at least does not let Charlotte get away with her smugness. Even if Juliet just wings her a little I'll be happy. Anything that will scare the crap out of Charlotte will make me happy. Well that's all I have time for now. Have a great Monday LoCo's!
Congrats Carol!! Niece or nephew?
carol
Congrats on becoming an aunty again!!
Boy or Girl?
Congratulations Carol, to you and of course the new Mum.
Andromeda was a show with lots of promise, but the last two years got very confused, especially as it got shown very sporadically in the UK so it was hard to keep up to date.
Still it had a very sexy Lexa Doig in it, playing at least three characters at once !
Just a quick update on the Torchwood ARG, it's progressing at a slow pace as there is only an activity / update after each show.
I was really annoyed at myself last week as I found the hidden website, decoded the Alien Language and then got foxed by a 5 letter anogram. As Homer would say Doh !
I also got foxed by the anagram, the anogram was an altogether tougher challenge ;-)
I did work it out but only after two days.
Congrats, Aunty Carol!
Memphish said: They were referencing the calendar and the fact that days are marked off from Oct-Dec. That means someone has been inhabiting the sickbay and marking off those days all that time.
Maybe it was just the Doctor marking the days going by. I don't necessarily think it would indicate there were actually sick people in the sick bay. I'm more curious about the possible color code. Those 4 yellow days in Oct. stick out!
Re Hanso's journal: I think Widmore might have been doing business with Hanso and the DI people. Then he realizes that there might be a lot of power and money with that crazy island he's hearing about. Maybe he's been working with the people like Mittlewerk who were overtaking THF, and convinced Alvar's relative to sell the Journal, with the knowledge that Widmore would win the bidding.
I think the freighter has been looking for the island since Widmore got the journal, but couldn't find it until Penny's people gave her the coordinates from the purpling incident. Daddy Widmore stole those numbers from her and quickly assembled his Freighter Four team. That's why there seems to be hostility between the freighter crew (who's been there for a long time) and the Team (who have just been brought in...like celebrities).
I'm not sure about Widmore actually being the Captain. I'm leaning for Abbaddon to be on the ship somehow.
Love the Juliet/Charlotte talk...Charlotte is the new Juliet! LOL She is soooo obnoxious!
BTW: 2Costa loved your chess/backgammon comparisons.
I have to concur, I hope that Juliet at least give Charlotte a good slug in the kisser!! :-D But I do like how Charlotte helps Dan out, and he seems reciprocate, so if she helps him I hope she's around for a while.
I can really see a "Penny's team vs. Dad's team" thing going on, that's a good idea.
Does it strike anyone that throughout the whole show, that no one will help anyone else, they won't communicate.
Some of losties will, and it looks like Faraday will but everyone else will not give a straight answer to a question.
It has to be more than the writers trying to tease (frustrate) the audience.
Ded: Thanks for posting the walk-thru for Via Domus. As for someone who isn't much of a gamer, I'm finding it a little harder than easier, and I'm enjoying it. I just do a little at a time. But I've bookmarked you for reference and in case I get stuck! Thanks again for all the work you put into it!
By the way, I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but there was a bit of a landmark this week in the show.
It was the first time we have seen, in real time*, that any of the original 815'ers have left the island**.
* By real time, I mean as real as it gets in Lost.
** I don't count the Hydra island as off Island
i think it was interesting that it wasnt alvar hanso auctioning off the journal. It was a new hanso we havent heard of before. I right on with the theory that widmore made the race route trace the black rocks course. Even though find815 isnt cannon it interesting that they used the black rock journal to find 815. Seems to strongly point to widmore being the freighters boss. Memphis i had that same thought that the green injections unstick u rather than stick u in time, which would explain why minkowski was trippin his blanks off, cause the creepy doc from csi was shooting him up i think he was named ray. The reason it fits so nice is it goes with the aaron as savior of the island theory, they gave him shots when he was a tot, and i suspect he is with kate in La in order to grow up protected until his ultimate purpose is revealed. Kate has shown she is a badass so who better to guard aaron. Would also make sense about the green unsticking you because charlie was shooting himself up with it, which could be how he came to hurley in the future. With the revalation that the island and real world are basically on the same time, walt being older seems to show that he is off the island and its 2004 walt that projected back to locke in the pit and told him to kill naomi, it you think about it locke didnt shoot charrlotte or miles on site or jack for that matter, so it was significant that naomi answered right to abaddon and thats who walt said to take out, and the other freightys are just pawns in the game. I have been thinking for a while now that mike is working with ben;partly becaue of how drastic his spring ben from the hatch plan went kill ana lucia and libby. After all klugh just wanted mike to free ben and bring the list of five to the warph, all we would have to see is a scene where ben struck a seperate deal with mike before he got caught in rousseaus net, didnt ben say something about giving his word to mike that he'd let him go if he did his mission on the dock, well wasnt it klugh that hammered out the deal with mike, then it would make sense that walt is also trying to advance bens agenda. Ben is grooming sayid to be his soldier, well its seems very convenient that walts appearance is what led to ana lucia shooting shannon, convenient because ana was on bens baddy listremember goodwin said he tried to make a case for her with ben and she ultimately killed goodwin, so ben would not mind that sayid would hate her, plus sayid needs to be a lone wolf to be the ultimate soldier. To go with the thought that desmond has always has the potential to be special, there was mention of how he was supposed to get married before but had a blackout and ended up with the brothers.
Maven, I don't think there were sick people the whole time either. My bigger surprise is that the ship has been out doing whatever it's been out doing since at least Oct. 1, 2004. The plane crashed Sept. 22, 2004. And we don't know when the plane was found in the Sunda Trench. I'm just messing with the timeline again. :)
And whoever said that Charlotte is just using Dan like Shannon used Charlie is right. Don't fall for it Capcom!
As for the lack of talking. Notice how no one has mentioned to the Freighties, uh, BTW there are other people here somewhere on the Island. Last we heard from them they came to kidnap our pregnant women and we killed all 10 of them; but it's been a few days and we haven't seen or heard from them, so I'm sure you don't need to worry.
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