Sayid and Desmond hit a bit of turbulence on the way to the freighter, which causes Desmond to experience some unexpected side effects. Flashback/Flashforward unconfirmed, no promotional photos, crazy promo with a long haired Faraday...Here we go!
Thursday, February 28, 2008
The Constant - Season 4, Episode 5
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 618 Newer› Newest»DiggityDirge said...and we still don't know why Naomi had a picture of Dez and Penny. That is absolutely killing me!
Maybe Desmond gives it to her. Maybe they get to a point where there is controlled jumping in an attempt to harness time and the future (like I suspect Desmond's monk and ring lady did).
Oh, and good morning!
Also, I did a quick update of the final post at Ocenaic Conspiracies with all of the latest Find 815 clue tie-ins, and what's left.
Just marking my place. Busy morning, but I'll catch up on the 200 comments and be back this afternoon.
I loved, loved, loved this episode and how it made me cry.
diggitydirge said: In regards to the time paradox question. The if you go back in time and kill your grandmother theory doesn't apply here. There is no physical time travel taking place.
Agree 100%, as I was saying last night. Don't want to be bullish about it, but TPTB went out of their way to explain themselves out of the writers' hell that is the dreaded Paradox. Pretty much shoots down theorizing that includes corporeal time travel.
Des didn't change the future because he didn't learn much of anything about the island, etc. before 2004 Des stopped time traveling. By the time 1996 Des stopped bouncing ahead in the future all he learned was that in 2004 he'll end up on a weird boat with people he doesn't know, and that consciousness time travel is possible. That doesn't give him much to go on as far as knowing about the island ahead of time, or not racing the sailboat, or not pushing the button, or even about any of the Losties except Sayid (whose name he doesn't even know).
That's why the future did not change.
I also agree that Dan has not yet traveled in time. He'd know if he had, and likely would have died without the constant he now has.
One more thing it seems no one's talking about:
When Minkowski was "calmed down" by the sick bay doc (can't remember his name), he said something about how he wasn't crazy -- that it had happened to Desmond, too -- and that they wouldn't be able to go back to the island. So it would seem at least some of the crew have been to the island before. Very cool.
So why had Minkowski and others been to the island before: were they DHARMA? Were they were part of the group of hostiles Ben joined up with? Are they possessed with the spirits of the Black Rock crew? (okay... maybe not that last one.)
I forget who suggested it, but I like the idea that Penny's island research was thanks to the journal her father bought at auction. I know the auctioneer said it had been reclaimed from pirates, but I wonder whether the first mate (or whoever's it was) made entries about the island itself, or only up to around the time they were disappeared/were transported to the island. Maybe they had already made it to the island, but he and a few other crew members decided to leave raft-style and were intercepted by pirates after they'd escaped.
I wonder whether Des's boat really washed up on the island, or was "transported" the same way the Black Rock was?
So I have been thinking about Room 23 and the images there. Here’s a list of the images that were shown to Karl. We also know that Walt was in that room per the V-casts from the off season.
So how about this, maybe part of the research on the island trying to force this conscious time travel by exposing people to electromagnetic radiation in conjunction with a series of images. Some of those images would certainly seem to inspire location and/or a specific time. Could this be what Richard Alpert references when he tells Locke that, “Ben is wasting time with his work on the pregnant women, and that there are other more important reasons that they are all there on the island”?
Thoughts:
1) My internet connection at home is fried. Same saboteur that killed the freighter's comm room must have gotten to Charter's cable box outside my house. >: \
2) Charlotte has an agenda that is best served by the LOSTies' ignorance. I wouldn't be surprised if she would have been just as angry as Miles about a "Native" being there. My guess is that either she really doesn't want any Native involvement, or she needs it.
3) Charlotte working with Dan is very reminiscent to me of Shannon getting Charlie to catch her a fish. Dumb hot girl seducing the twitchy nerd to writer her paper for her.
3) scoutpost: I know! Finally, they're getting to the interesting real-world continuity. Doc mentioned it in his flu-shortened column today, so I think it's got to a least get a mention from maybe the freighter people. A word of warning to watch out for dangerous surf or something.
3) Ange, I love your theories on the connection to Rousseau's ship. It was explicitly mentioned by Daniel that some people experience strange side-effects.
4) I do not think that anyone will be bodily time-travelling. I don't think Walt is, nor Jacob, nor anyone else. I think TPTB's firm recalcitrance against paradoxes will prevent that from happening.
5) I still don't think Michael's on the freighter. I'm holding firm that his reintroduction will be a mindf*ck moment, not just a run-of-the-mill surprise.
Sporadic poster here...
Has anyone commented on or discussed why Frank isn't surprised that Desmond wasn't on the plane, like he was when he found out Juliette's name and realized she was a native? I don't know if that bears any weight with everything else that was going on, I just found it weird.
I'm still mad at Doc for spoiling me for next week, but I guess I might have figured it out with the coming scenes at the end.
Oh, and reading the AV Club review, I was reminded that we "met" a new Hanso last night: Tobard. Wonder how he fits it!
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I am curious what you guys think. People are saying that the person who gave the journal from the Black Rock up for auction is Tovard Hanso. I thought the guy said Alvar Hanso. Do we know it's a Tovard Hanso for sure, or are people just mishearing Alvar Hanso's name?
If someone is able to run closed captioning, it'd be great to get a spelling on the name.
OBU: Jinx!
And after consulting Lostpedia, it would appear to be Tovard. That makes more sense from a Scandinavian POV than "Tobard."
I love the Lostpedians almost as much as I love you guys.
THE STICK!! Eko's stick!
"Lift up your eyes and look North" John 3:05.
The heading on the helicopter?
305. Northwest.
Kyle, you got there first! :-D
Okay. So, I take it Lostpedia is accurate when it comes to the show. Is it run by the creators or something? Just curious, since I don't know about it.
Kyle said...Eko's stick!
"Lift up your eyes and look North" John 3:05.
The heading on the helicopter?
305. Northwest.
Ohhh awesome find Kyle (via Lostpedia :))
This would kind of support the theory that Desmond, Locke, and Eko were all getting flash forwards after the Swan implosion, and maybe Eko was just interpreting what he was glimpsing as signs from God and/or bible verse.
Lostpedia is generally accurate because it's run by a gajillion other people like you and me and all the TLCers who obsess over LOST. It's not official, but it's strong in numbers.
Good Morning Everyone! Wowzers!
Great Episode? Or Greatest Episode Ever?
DiggityDirge said... BTW, did everyone see how pissed Charolette was at Dan.
And the freighter folk were very upset that Dan talked to Desmond. I'm guessing everyone is bent out of shape because of the saboteur on board.
And what was the big deal about Sayid meeting Minkowski? Why was there a need to sound the alarm?
Morning all: Hope you all got SOME sleep last night. I know my head was spinning!
Erich said: So why had Minkowski and others been to the island before: were they DHARMA?
Minkowski mentioned that he and another crew member, Brandon, were bored on the freighter just hanging around and took a ship's tender to get closer to the island. Brandon died.
I'm a little confused about Dan. Has he time traveled previously before getting to the island in 2004? Is it because he's been subjecting himself to radiation daily doing time travel research in
1996 at Queen's College? And he had to get to the island to meet his Constant?
Welcome rubygreeneyes! You asked: Has anyone commented on or discussed why Frank isn't surprised that Desmond wasn't on the plane, like he was when he found out Juliette's name and realized she was a native?
Minkowski mentioned that they knew that Desmond was Penny's boyfriend, so perhaps Frank was told to be on the lookout for Desmond on the island. It seems that the crew knew about the Penny/Desmond relationship because Widmore is behind the freighter.
Kyle: Are you saying Doc Jensen is spoilery today? I don't want to know anything about next week's episode!
I think dan is in a time jump,that is why he has trouble with the cards or seemed fuzzy about details in 4x2, the passage in his journal about desmond being his constant sort of corfirms it, if that is true, remembering desmond is his constant should restore his mind. Remember dan said he was going to teach the rat the maze in the next hour. What if he was so busy with desmond passing out that he never taught the rat the maze in the ensueing 75 minutes and that caused a time paradox which subsequently caused the rat's anuerysm. I was torn between the notion if all of this including desmonds timeleaps has already happened or if it was a change of course for the timeline, there was no clear answer it could have gone either way, because past desmond never knew pennys new phone number until he asked her,the only thing that almost seemed like a nod to a change in the timeline was when weekend pass desmond was leaving penny's he got that deja vu smile when future desmond successfully called penny on christmas eve, but thats not definative proof. It seems to me that people like desmond and dan are more suited for the time travel without the nose bleeds because their minds protect them from going insane by having them not remember evertything at certain times, not to mention dan's journal and desmond's picture of penny act as small constants(anchors) to keep them from going insane in the short term. If you'll recall minkowski was fully aware when he would come back and thats what caused the insanity. I think that the mind time travel is just the beginning, if the orchid is to be beleived, under the right circumstances, the whole physical body can travel through time as well, like the two fifteen bunnies and this could tie to the dharma bear being found in tunesia.I think its interesting that the numbers that desmond gave dan in the past were the mathimatical constant of the island to bookend nicely with the actuall people constants. It would also reason out that daniel could have caused his own insanity from constant exposure to the ray he shot his rat with. Heres some quick bullet points ill try to stay clear and conscise...
1. the ships doctor having the green vaccination shows that whoever is the boss of the frieghter must know more about the island than some of his crew. Plus the vaccinations are probably used on the island to keep people sane and tethered in time and space
2. the much talked about island virus is probably the time travel insanity, and that why the dharma people like desmond took the green shot all the time, because you couldn't be a good worker and caretaker on the island if you were always timetraveling and going insane.
3. Perhaps bens List that he complied when the crash of 815 happened are lists of people that have gone batty from the time thing.
4 to take the last point one step further, maybe all of the 815 people were recruited for their genetic predisposistion to not go insane from the island, since none of them except agrueably eko have gone insane like minkowski.
5. or to take it one step further maybe all the serendipity that the island people have with each other like desmond knowing jack from the stadium or whatever has been orchestrated to give them all constants on the island and thats why most of them are not going insane.
6. chuck widmore actually giving desmond pennys address seemed to point to him being on board with what desmond has to do in the future.
7. Widmore buying magnus hanso's journal seems to definetly point to him being the boss of the freighter, I know find 815 isn't all cannon, but they used the black rock journal to find the freckage.
8. This is just a hunch, at first i thought minkowski was going to be bens man on the inside, but the way the door opened for them shows its someone else, I think that bens man on the inside on the frieghter is gonna turn out to be micheal, it would make sense the freighter seems to have been there for a while so they would argueably be the ones to find mike when he left the island and that could explain why they are not surprised about flight 815 survivors being on the island.. and all we would need to make this all make sense is a scene with ben and mike from his captivity,(sidenote) seems to me that maybe mike killing libby wasnt an accident, cause desmond was off drunk somewhere at the time, had he met libby he would have remembered her from giving him his boat, this is just an after thought...
Fantastic post-show thoughts everyone!! I'm just soaking all your ideas in here.
Maybe Dan did not experience any 'flashes' until he crossed the island's EMF demarcation line on his way into the island. So he didn't need his constant until he started to get symptoms, or in case he might start. Just a thought. Doing all that EM work in his lab without the proper enclosures and apparel, he could get exposed for sure.
I feel so sorry for Dan, he probably had to use Des as his constant because he didn't have any friends to use! :-( And, because Des would be the only one that would help or believe him, when he contacted him as his touchstone.
Wow, such a great ep.
maven that brings up a good point, i think its much less hairier for a low tech ship to go to the island(like minkowski), like desmonds sail boat was barley messed up, and a submarine must be the ideal way maybe it goes under the magnetosphere. I bet the potion(the bitter stuff that knocked her out) they gave to julliette before she went to the island was geared towards her keeping her sanity throught the journey. Jensen pointed out that eko desmond and locke were in the swan imploded, so maybe thats why eko was flashing back and forth to reality beacuse he was having a desmondlike experience. To tie it into the julliette submarine potion, maybe thats why locke was seemingly uneffected by the swan yet lost his voice becuase maybe he had consumed some of the vaccine or whatever they gave julliette to protect him from the swan experience.
maven: No, yesterday's column was.
Maven: I understand that Minkowski tried to get to the island by boat, but he definitely made it sound like at least some of them had been there before. He said something about "going back" (and I don't mean at the end of the ep, when he died); if he had only tried to make it to the island, why would he specifically talk about going back? I got the sense the reason they were in the dinghy was because he wanted to get another look at the island -- perhaps because he couldn't believe they had actually found it again.
Just dropping in to say Good Morning!
Going to catch up on comments.
I know I'm torn about what to think about Naomi and Minkowski. On one hand, they're very likely small transition characters, and their brief on-screen time serves only to advance the story to a certain point.
On the other hand, they were both played by known actors. It seems surprising that they'd be so briefly utilized.
If Minkowski is destined to return in future episodes, a la Naomi with her post-mortem flashback, then I would not be at all surprised to find out he's got some connection to the Island.
But I'm not putting money on it.
How did Des know to go to the auction house, and why did Papa Widmore give Des Penny's address? Did I miss something there? Widmore wanted to keep them apart.
(Thanks, Kyle...I'll check it out now.)
i agree with you capcom about daniel, but then he just has a degenaritive brain thing to explain why he had a caretaker on the day flight 815 was found. He had to remember desmond coming and telling him about the future and the coordinates plus desmond told him about the island, so that would explain his sorrow if he thought that flight 815 was supposed to land on the island, he might have feared that history was changed. Capcom much like slaughterhouse five, even if dan didnt start time jumping til he landed on the island his consciousness would still have gone to the past, probabaly like desmond went back to the military. Desmond was seeming to go insane in the past even though he didnt turn the failsafe key until the future. So to me dans dementia in the past makes total sense because only fools are trapped in time and space and you cant unring a bell, so once dan started tweaking on the island it send a ripple through his mental health throughout his life or at least has the potential to do so in the deja vu way...
Ange there are two possablitlys about the picture, whoever her boss is knows about the island and desmond pushing the swan clock, so they could have equiped naomi with the pic to act as the constant or the other possability is that minkowski had mentioned that he answered the phone once and it was penny, so thats another way they could know about desmond, what bothered me about that is wouldnt have penny been more freindly about the freighter to charlie had she actually talked to minkowski instead of acting perplexed?
maven i think he wants desmond to push the button, thats why he suggested the race around the world, its no coooincidence that chuck is bidding on magnus' journal becuase he knows something about the island...
was it just me or didnt one of the bidders on the journal look like alvar hanso, and who was the hanso that was putting the book on sale, it wasnt alvar it was a differnt hanso, which seems to be a game changer as well
Why were dates crossed off in different colors on the 2004 calender? The dates in October (I think 20, 2l, 22, 24) are in yellow...why only those four dates?
thats a great calander question maven we need some lostologist from lospedia to tell us what happened on those four days on the island that might shed some light on why there is the block of four yellow days in october or find a patternt for the other colors on other days
i think part of the numbers that future dan gave desmond to tell oxford dan there was an osolating variable in the numbers, phasing in and out, maybe there are better days than others to be able to get onto the island. Maybe the magnatism anomoly expands and retracts back and forth
I was just wondering that myself Maven. Possibly something to do with monitoring something like the island's EMFs, or the episodes of the person in sickbay?
Awwww, I just noticed in the screencaps that poor fake dead Eloise has a widdle bloody nose like Minkowsky. :-(
Yeah, my morning thing didn't take all morning, so I'm finally ready to respond to comments and post my own ideas.
First that episode was such a huge payoff for the obsessives of us out there particularly with the auction scene. The callbacks and tie-ins were flying fast and furiously. I need to call my sister who's a non-obsessed LOST fan to see if that breed of individual enjoyed the episode as much as this crowd did. I honestly think this may be my favorite episode of the series, okay partly because I've been saying it was consciousness time travel not corporeal for a long time now and I was thrilled to have it confirmed.
There's been mention of those we've seen die on the Island being unstuck in time now and that's why they are showing up on Island and even off Island in Charlie's case. I would recommend Slaughterhouse Five and The Time Traveler's Wife both of which address the issue of physical death but continued time travel. I don't want to spoil either, so that's all I'll say for now.
One of my favorite ideas for the episode is that we've finally seen Danielle's sickness. She said it started when they went to the Dark Territory which I'm guessing had high levels of electromagnetism and/or radiation. But this raises so many questions for me like why only certain people seem to be affected this way? It seems like Locke in particular ought to be having the same sort of issues if exposure to electromagnetism is part of the cause. Also, it seemed to me that Minkowski's story was going to be me and guy in the boat were headed to the Island when the sky turned purple, but it got cut off. Why are Minkowski and Brandon dead when this has only been happening to them a few days and Desmond isn't? Why were they affected off shore when no one else on Island seems to be affected?
I think Minkowski said to Desmond that the problem is progressive so why is it that Desmond has progressed so much slower? Clearly he wasn't having this problem in the Swan, right? Otherwise there would have been more missed button pushings? I guess the vaccine may really have worked as well. Maybe that's why Desmond has been okay and is progressing slower.
Finally for now, I think the person that cut the communications is Ben's man on the boat. I think the person who unlocked the infirmary door is Michael who is not Ben's man on the boat.
if a person needs a constant to keep their sanity and avoid an aneurysm, why would a rat go insane. You would think that a rat could deal with not knowing where in time and space it was and wouldnt the maze act as its constant. Thats what makes me think that a time paradox is more likely to short circuit its brain, thats why i wonder if daniel actually followed through with teaching the rat the maze after desmond passed out, it would have been a very disciplined move to still train the rat just to ensure time continuity. As many time travel theorists would tell you there is a school of time travel thought that would say something as little as not teaching the rat the maze after it had already happened in its future flash would jeapordize the space time continuium...
memphis i agree, perhaps desmond is slower to progress cause he always has the picture of penny to anchor him and the fact that he took the green injections for 4 years and just stopped taking them recently. I also think this episode cast a differnt light on Ekos last days, it would seem he was having a minkowski like experience where he was flashing back and forth and when they found him dead he didnt have a mark on him. Myabe the anueryism that they describe is like the smoke beating the crap out of eko, but just in their own minds
Good point Maven about the black rock book. I kind of took it as there are similarities between how the black rock and Dez's ship disappeared, so Pen is able to use the logbook to help her research efforts in finding the island.
I re-watched the episode again this morning before work. Last night I used the word cunning to describe Dan's response to Dez, and I should have said selfish. Ben is cunning so when I say that I think everyone automatically goes to a sinister state of mind.
I tried to watch the epi with an open mind, but I once again arrived at the conclusion that Dan efforts to help Dez were selfish at best and with no real intention of helping Dez fix his issue. Dan knew Dez survived into the future and was on the island, so he immediately went into how to save myself mode.
Not saying 1996 Dan isn't a typical scientist. Any scientist who has been working on a theory and finally hits a breakthrough would be very pre-occupied with their research, but I never saw any huge effort from Dan to save Dez, or to tell Dez how to save himself. It seemed Dan was only interested in getting the answers he needed to succeed in his experiment and figuring out his constant.
1996 Dan should have also realized Dez was his future constant and should have been doing everything possible to help him survive. Especially after seeing the fate of Eloise. Dez practically had to beat it out of him.
The last thought I had is they could have been eachothers constant. Since their time jumps seemed to coincide, they could have used each other as a constant. But, as someone pointed out earlier, Dan really had nothing significant in his life from his past, atleast that we have seen yet, so he was wholey relying on Dez. Dez on the other hand had Penny and knew that she was looking for him thanks to Charlie. Penny and Dez had a strong connection as Daniel suggested a constant should have, so it really helped Dez. I think Dez is in the clear now and will survive the time jump sickness. But will he survive in the long run?
On the other hand, Dez and Dan don't have a realy strong connection, so can Dan really be saved?
There's my rant for the morning.
A couple of more items for now. I don't think Dan has become unstuck. I think he's just fried his memory with constant exposure to radiation. That's why he needs his notebook. I also don't impute any ill intent to his interaction with Desmond. I think he's just a focused scientist.
Charlotte is the new Juliet for me. I can't stand her. I agree she's just using Dan to keep him in line so that she can do her experiment. When she's finished she'll toss him to the wolves. And whatever her experiment is she knows everyone won't like it; that's why she's so secretive.
The idea that you can't change the future despite being unstuck in time comes straight from Slaugterhouse Five. This book takes mere hours to read. I'd recommend it to everyone to pass their time the next week.
Sayid's Girl asked about Sayid using his heart not his head when he gave Frank the gun. Ooooh. I like it.
I like Ange's idea that your unstuckness works differently on and off Island. I don't know quite what to do with that info, but it seems to me that might make the Adam/Eve Des/Penny theories the most likely.
After the scene with Desmond and Penny they need to stick a fork in the love polygon and kill the thing. This is the only love story that matters.
interesting memphis you agree mike is on the boat but dont think hes bens man on the inside,explain your reasoning? I dont know either way, but i think the way ben hated ana lucia and libby would mess with desmonds mind seems to fit with why mike killed them both, seemed a little harsh for a diversion to spring ben, but if we were to see ben strike a sererate deal with might other than the one klugh struck with him it would make sense...
Memphish: I think that you're right about the vaccine. Also, going into the storm while leaving the island was what triggered the huge "side effect" that Desmond experienced. It's possible that if Locke or Eko has left the island the time travel would have progressed in them too leading to their demise.
Maybe that's one big part of why you can't leave the island once you're there per Ben...it makes the problem progress much quicker.
Doc Jensen quotes Slaughterhouse 5 today and Time Traveler's Wife is my favorite book ever. (And I still LOVE your theories on TTW and Lost Memphish, LOL even after all this time)!
Memphish said: I need to call my sister who's a non-obsessed LOST fan to see if that breed of individual enjoyed the episode as much as this crowd did.
LOL: I immediately emailed some casual viewer friends and family last night to get their quick reactions! Haven't heard from them yet!
2costa: Good thoughts about poor Eloise! We assume rats have no memories of time and space, but I think the brain aneurysm thing is a side effect of the radiation, not going insane. Notice the nose bleeds?
Crap! I posted under my work blog account above. I'll try to remove it.
Thanks Ange. Though I must say I'm much more satisfied with consciousness vs. corporeal time travel.
I can't believe those fancy phones are nothing more than "glorified walkie talkies" to quote Sayid. :D I also hope that when he gets back in the real world, Sayid can find some batteries with a more than 2 minute life. How many times has this happened to him now?
Whew - that was crazy. ;) Here's my comment again:
Am I misunderstanding this, or does the electromagnetism not cause side affects until you leave the island?
That is:
Des and Locke were both exposed. Des becomes unstuck only when he tries to leave the island. Locke is fine because he has not tried to leave. I think Desmond's first "flash" was a direct affect of the explosion itself, and not exactly the same as what happened last night (mostly because it all happened at once - he didn't go back and forth).
That's why Des is affected so fast (same as George was) - it only happened when he left.
Also, I think Dan's issues are tied into the radiation that he was working with. He told Des that he wore the smock because of the radiation, but that Des didn't need one because it was only prolonged exposure that was dangerous. Des then asked him what he wore on his head and Dan just gave him a look. I think that was the main clue right there.
Memphish said: I think Minkowski said to Desmond that the problem is progressive so why is it that Desmond has progressed so much slower? Clearly he wasn't having this problem in the Swan, right?
I think the constant is the island. When on the island, Dez would only have his flashes sporadically. Once he left, the time jumping seemed to happen at a much faster rate. I think that is why Minkowski progressed so quickly, and so did dez once he arrived on the freighter and left the island.
ML (in her work personna said:) Am I misunderstanding this, or does the electromagnetism not cause side affects until you leave the island?
I don't think that's it because Eloise never left the maze. Also do you really think Minkowski and Brandon got to the Island? I don't think they did because I don't think they'd have been able to get back to the Freighter had they entered the Island's sphere of influence. They're no Dan when it comes to exact bearing.
Last night I was sort of thinking that you need to approach and leave the Island on the same bearing or it would mess you up. After all Frank and Sayid don't have any effects and Sayid at least had to have been as close the purpling as Minkowski and Brandon.
memphish: After the scene with Desmond and Penny they need to stick a fork in the love polygon and kill the thing. This is the only love story that matters.
A truer paragraph containing as much humor was never typed. I love "the love polygon."
As for Des/Penny, I couldn't agree more. The S2 finale was made stronger by that last scene, and the Desmond episodes have been uniformly awesome. When Penny answered, all I could do was stare and watch it all unfold and put my hand on my fiancee's leg.
Grey's Anatomy and all those other shipper-fantasy dramedys can cram it with walnuts. There have been few scenes on television with as much real, palpable romantic emotion as the end of Des and Penny's phone call.
Does anyone agree that maybe ben or whoever has manipulated the serdipity of the characters in their life in order to give them all constants, caus eif youll recall jack could have been desmonds constant or vice versa from their meeting in the stadium, albeit a small encounter. It just seems intersting to me that 2 out of 2 people from the freighter went insane from going to the island buy 70 plus people on oceanic flight 815 have managed to keep their sanity??? i think it might speak to the notion that these people were meant to restock the island with people that are not especiially predispossed to the time mind wrinkle, and that speaks to bens lists, he lets hurey and walt get off the island becuase their gifts for seeing jacob or whatever make them a threat to the timeline. IF you think about it three of the oceanic six have had experience that tie back to the real world like a anchor or constant, kate with her black horse, jack with his dad, and hurley seeing jacks dad in the cabin. I know this is out there but if im right and nadia works with people from the island maybe mikhails cat ebing named nadia was his constant or a constant meant for sayid. In that way sayids picture of nadia is a mini constant like des' photo of penny
And even if Minkowski got to the Island, he couldn't have been near the Hatch could he? I'm not understanding his exposure.
i think that under certain circumstances coporeal time travel is possible as well look at the 2 15 bunnies in the orchid video...
LOL Kyle! Yeah, let's here it for Des-and-Penny love!!! :-D
And we got another, "Ah love you Penneh" out of it. :-)
I like your idea 2Costa that the 815ers have been given Constants on the Island like Jack's Dad, Kate's horse, etc. Only problem is not everyone has had one, or maybe they have and they just aren't talking.
diggity i think you are right on the money,with leaving the island makes it progress faster. Not to mention we dont know what the purpose of the green shots are yet, maybe the shots make it happen more and not less, maybe thats why charlie was able to project to hurley, becaus eif you ll recall charlie started taking the shots from the food drop...
We have to keep our eyes open for any real world info about mind-time-travel theories. So far we've only studied Coporeal Time Travel 101, so we need to see if there are any of the more mental theories out there. Perhaps some of the names in this ep can send us in the right direction. I'd really like to get an (albeit elementary) understanding of that, if there is something out there besides just yogi astral projection fluff.
I think that Carlos Castanedas (sp?) went into that in his Don Juan books that I read back in my hippie days. And that book/movie 'Altered States' went into it of course as well.
Diggitydirge said: Dan efforts to help Dez were selfish at best and with no real intention of helping Dez fix his issue.
Agreed! Dan was using Des to get the important numbers to him! Not to put a diss on scientists, but aren't they so focused on their research/experiments, they lack social skills! LOL
Ange said: Maybe that's one big part of why you can't leave the island once you're there per Ben...it makes the problem progress much quicker.
Good thinking, Ange! That's why Minkowski (and Brandon) died so rapidly. I'm worried for Desmond. Does having a Constant thwart that side affect?
wgvu tv & radio or melissa_lossa said: Des and Locke were both exposed. Des becomes unstuck only when he tries to leave the island. Locke is fine because he has not tried to leave.
I think you do have something there. Even though Des, Locke, Eko and Charlie were all "exposed" during the hatch implosion, Des seems to have accelerated his time travel off island. Des' first visions were scattered and disjointed. Maybe Locke had some visions in the sweat tent, and it seems, Eko knew something in writing on his Jesus stick "Look North, John 3:05" which is the bearing for the helicopter.
We've do have to figure out why some people develop this time travel "skill" and others don't. I know exposure to radiation/electromagnetism is the reason Dan gives, but if Minkowski and Brandon developed this by only sailing close to the island, wouldn't you think everyone on the island would be doing this by now?
I'm not convinced that time still isn't running differently on and off Island. Yes on the boat and at Penny's it's Dec. 24th, but I'm convinced on the Island it's later. Sayid says to Frank that we took off and dusk and now it's mid-day. I guess the answer could be a Truman Show dome where Ben controls how many times the sun rises and sets, but I think we've clearly seen 2 days pass on Island and only about 1/2 day on the boat.
shannon had boone, rose has bernard as constants. Now that i think about it Minkowski and desmond are the only ones to get the green shots, not sayid or frank as far as we know, on face value it would almost seem like the shot makes you more likely to trip out. Especially if ben is trying to do something he could have given the freightys false info, it al reminds me of how they injected aaron with the green but gave claire the bitter drink. I think they are two differnt things, the bitter drink ala julliette on the sub seems to protect your mind or whatever, but who knows what the green shot does, if aaron is so special maybe they are giving him the green from childhood to become the neo-like time travel messiah of the island
I've read a few things linking Desmond's unstuckness to the Casimir effect. I don't think the 2 are the same at all. One has to do with consciousness and paradox prevention (I think there's notes on Dan's blackboard about this sort of thing) and the other with corporeal time travel with the possibility of catastrophe should you encounter yourself.
the way locke lost his voice after the pupling seems to point to him getting the same bitter brew they gave claire and julliette, maybe his iced teas keeps him sane and thats why ben was all over the tea, ive never seen ben shoot himself up with the green
i wholeheartedly agree memphis i think the coporeal and mental time travel ae on differnt tracks but both possible on the island depending on the variables. I think the healing properties of the island are a whole other thing as well
It seems Mrs. Hawking and Brother Campbell have been to Queen's College, too! (Thanks to GetLostPodcast and B-ildo for pointing that out)
I agree Memphish.
Sweeeet, Maven!!
Haven't Charlie and Eko been there too Maven? Seems to me that looked like the place Charlie went to confess in The Moth and Eko was priesting at in ?
Like all of you, my head hurts after last night's ep. I am supremely confused. In TTLG, Charlie talks to Penny and she says "what boat?" and "who's Naomi?" Charlie writes on his hand “not pennys boat.” BUT last night she had been calling Minkowski on the boat but he had never answered. If she didn't know about the boat when she was talking to Charlie, how did she know to call Minkowski on it?
Heheh, that photo of Campbell and Mrs.H looks like a picture collage that I made of Martin and Katerina Luther once. But my collage looks better. :o)
http://bp0.blogger.com/_pG1kU-zfuxM/R8eExAnj8yI/AAAAAAAAAJk/HoZvhOKj6lk/s1600-h/screen-capture-14.jpg
i just noticed that on tis sceencap dan has a graph and equation the says time up the side and imaginary spacee up the other side and if you look above it it looks like one variable in the equation is Amnesia^2. I didnt think of it til now but dan saw desmond a few days earlier so he would have already had the thing about desmond beinf his constant in his journal at that time, so i think that was a frsh change on the timeline, i think we are more into uncharted waters than ever, if youll recall desmond only remmebred up to the failsafe key in his first flashback during the purpling. I think we also have to ask ourselves who was trying to kill charlie all those times, obviossly some one that didnt want the signal unjammed probably ben and the freighters equipment didnt get sabotaged until charlie successfully unjammed the signal
Memphish,
I don't think Minkowski and other had to be near the hatch to get exposed to the electomagnetism or radiation. The hatch was used to harness the electromagnetism, and now that it is toast I would think the levels near the island are pretty high.
They have always said that the island has electormagnetic properties. If they tried to get to island, chances are they would have been exposed. Unless there is something that gives off radiation or electromagnetism as they enter the worm whole for the island. (not sure what to call it, but I mean when the helicopter flies through the black whole)
Right, Ruby. I can see how she could not have known about Naomi if she did not know who all of the crew was. But she must have been calling Minkowski on a frequency, and not on a satphone. If it was like calling him on a mobile radio, she could keep in touch with Minkowski where ever he was, on a car, a boat, whatever. But it didn't really seem as if she was calling Mink personally. At least not yet.
Rubygreeneyes: Good question about how Penny knew to call Minkowski. And Minkowski was told not to take her calls. My guess is that she demanded that her father tell her what boat he might have in the Pacific Ocean once Charlie told her about a Naomi on a boat. He reluctantly tells her, but orders the Communications Officer (Minkowski) not to take her calls.
Good point Diggity. The entire island could be the radiation source for all involved. Haha Charlotte, yours is coming! :-D
rubygreeneyes said...
Like all of you, my head hurts after last night's ep. I am supremely confused. In TTLG, Charlie talks to Penny and she says "what boat?" and "who's Naomi?" Charlie writes on his hand “not pennys boat.” BUT last night she had been calling Minkowski on the boat but he had never answered. If she didn't know about the boat when she was talking to Charlie, how did she know to call Minkowski on it?
I think they were just picking up the same signal being broadcast that Charlie picked up in the TLG. They could have either monitored Charlie and Panny's conversation or Minkowski could have answered at some point but never revealed he was on the boat.
Maybe that is the key to how they have Penny and Dez's picture? Or maybe it is daddy Widmore's boat. But I agree they left that part of the story out and will probably come back to it.
That sounds good Maven, I can buy that.
another page of his journal says larantz invarient heres the wiki of that ...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_invariance
this all ties to general relativity and ties to daniels observation about how light scatters differntly..Local Lorentz covariance refers to Lorentz covariance applying only locally in an infinitesimal region of spacetime at every point, which follows from general relativity. it reminds me of einsteins mental proof of the train going by but two differnt vantage points, and the light reaching those spots at a slightly diffenrt time, which opens the door for time relativity and time travel if you go faster than the speed of light ala superman flying aroun the world so fast he saves lois lane.
So confused..
Why is it that people think that the time is the same on the island and off?
if the constant will bring you back to the correct time, why doesnt desmond know Sayid? does he switch places?
great pick up kyle about Eko stick, damn i miss him.
desmond and penny made my wife tear up.
here is more on eintstien and the speed of light and invariance...
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlight/jw/module3_weird_logic.htm
that link above lays out pretty clearly how the speed of light affects time and space
after all light is particles just like anything else that are subject to the laws of physics just like anything else, that is one of the lynchpins of einnsteins going off the road of newtonian physics...
I thought i read earlier that doc article is spoilerish for next week. is that accurate? trying to stay clear of that.
Indeed, the speed of light (about 300,000 km/s - over a billion k.p.h.) is so great that our intuition is of little use. All the observations about speed that you have ever made, all of the experience upon which your common sense is based, are in a tiny area of physical reality that we could label "extremely low speed" compared with light. It is often the case that one can make approximations that apply over a limited region of reality, but that fail when we examine a larger range. For instance, objects fall at 9.8 metres per second per second in the lab. Also in the basement or on the roof. But this is not true in high orbits, or at the centre of the Earth
Dan tells those on the beach that it's their perception of time that's off kilter on the island. It's got to be more than the perception of time because Sayid points out that the helicopter took off as dusk and now it's mid-day. That's reality.
Anyway, I'm off to my reality (for the day), and I expect amazing revelations here when I return! Have fun! LOL
here's the excert that speaks directly to last nights episode and lost in general...
Light, electromagnetic waves and the logic of relativity
A wave phenomenon arises directly from the equations for electricity and magnetism (Maxwell's equations). On the way, the speed of light appears in terms of two constants, one electric and one magnetic. This is presented somewhat more formally on Maxwell's equations: are they really so beautiful that you would dump Newton?, but here is a qualitative or "arm-waving" explanation:
Vibrations and waves require two things. For example, a mass on the end of a spring oscillates because, when disturbed, the spring pulls it back towards its resting postion. However, when the mass gets to its resting position, it is now moving rapidly because of the action of the spring. So, because of its inertia, it overshoots. From that moment, the spring now slows it down. When it stops, the spring is stretched, so it accelerates the mass back towards its equilibrium position. Once there, it overshoots. Voilà: oscillation.
Let's generalise this idea. First, there must be an effect that acts to return the system towards equilibrium. For a wave in a stretched guitar string, it is the tension in the string that tends to straighten it out. For sound, it is the elastic property of the medium: squeeze it, and it 'bounces back', expand it and it contracts. (The relevant quantity for air - the 'springiness' of air for rapid changes - is about 1.4 times its pressure.)
Next there must something with inertia - something that, once moving, tends to keep on moving (like the moving mass in our mass and spring example). For a wave in a stretched string, the inertia arises because each small length of string has a certain mass. Here the relevant quantity is the mass per unit length of the string. For a sound wave in air, each small volume has mass and the inertia comes from the density of the air. (By the way, here are links for more about waves on strings and on sound waves in pipes.)
What is it about space - about pure vacuum - that allows it to carry electromagnetic waves? Taking a few liberties, we could say that the electric field is in a sense elastic or springy, in that it acts on the things that cause it (charge) to pull them back to equilibrium (Coulomb's or Gauss' law), while a magnetic field is inherently a bit like inertia because it acts to maintain the things that cause it, which are currents (Faraday's and Lenz' laws).
For all of these waves, we can work out the speed without actually producing a wave. For a string, we could measure the tension and mass per unit length of a string; for sound we would need the pressure (strictly, the adiabatic modulus) and density of the gas. In fact, for all waves like this, the speed turns out to be just the square root of the ratio of the "springiness" to the "inertial property".
Similarly we can work out the speed of light by putting charges on metal conductors and measuring the electric field produced, and by passing a current through a coil or wire and measuring the magnetic field it produces. (A common experiment in physics teaching laboratories measures the speed of light almost exactly this way, as does our electric circuit example.)
bigdog: The timeline as established on-Island matches up to the calendar on the freighter and the timeline for when Desmond called Penny.
And it was yesterday's Doc column that had a (fairly major, IMO) spoiler for next week. Today's column is fine 'cause there's barely anything there. He's sick.
Special relativity
This perplexed Einstein. How could two of the best established theories of physics — Maxwell’s equations and Newton’s laws — contradict each other? His solution, published in 1905, was the special theory of relativity.
The theory was based on two principles. Firstly, he said that the laws of physics must work the same way in every frame of reference. Secondly, he said that observers in different frames of reference should always measure the same value for the speed of light.
The only way both of these principles can be true is if we ditch many of our notions of time and space. Space and time become entangled so that observers, moving relative to each other, no longer agree whether any two events happen simultaneously or not.
If the train in our example began moving close to the speed of light, the observer by the side of the track would see the train contract in length.
A clock placed on the train would appear to tick more slowly. A weight placed upon it would seem to get heavier. However, to a person travelling on the train, everything on the train would appear perfectly normal.
for our purposes the island is the train and thats why everthing seems normal til you leave
Kyle aka TheBookPolice said...
bigdog: The timeline as established on-Island matches up to the calendar on the freighter and the timeline for when Desmond called Penny.
This had to be the most conusing point of the entire epi. On one hand we have the evidence that time passes differently on island than off island (as seen by Dan's payload experiment, the hellicopter going from the island to the freighter, and baby Aaron), and then on the other we see a calendar that lines up with real world timelines.
So very, very confused right now. It really seemed TPTB were going to great legnths to show time passing differently.
i think the differnt colors on the dates may point to how out of phase the island is with general reality at any given time, thats why maven you are correct the 20 minute trip took a day, to bring those two times back into sync
who can translate 2costa's scientific stuff into regular person talk?
as i said part of dans numbers for his experiment were osolating, so the island or its electromagantism is not constant, desmonds freak out was a side effect of frank maybe going a little bit off course, maybe if you leave at differnt bearings its more like bill in ted where you can pick the moment you are going to go back to
Bigdog: Memphish spoilerfixed the Doc Jensen article in question on Dennis's Spoilerfix blog. It's here.
diggity: I agree, this was confusing.
The best I can come up with is to compare it to listening to program with a 7-second delay on radio.
We don't notice the difference when we're listening to it until something disrupts our perception (say, for example, when someone drops an F-bomb on a call-in). Then we see that we're not perceiving reality; that 7-second delay then catches up over time so that after a while we're back to that 7-second delay.
diggity said: who can translate 2costa's scientific stuff into regular person talk?
LOL - Not me but it sounds believable
if we stay with the belief that time moves slower than how old are ben and Alpert really?
thanks ange.
wooah...Darlton has posted a podcast rehashing The Constant? That was fast!
Good Morning LoCos
I'm going to post this now because it's already too long. Then go back a finish the comments. And post some more.
maven said:
*How did Minkowski know Desmond was Penny's boyfriend? Obviously, Widmore controls the ship.
I was thinking maybe he answered the incoming call or he found out in one of his time travels.
*When the sick bay's door is magically opened for them...might be Ben's man on the boat helping them.
I was thinking it was Frank. But I could be wrong.
When Minkowski "dies" he says "I can't get back!". Does that mean you get stuck in the past?
That’s what I was thinking.
I can see how Danielle would have gone crazy with all her crew members bleeding from their nose and going bonkers about not being able to get back!
I know wouldn’t that be awful.
I think Daniel has time traveled or at least had an experience like Desmond where he was exposed to high amounts of radiation (which is the most likely choice) or electromagnetism. Then experienced a time jump or flashes of the future.
erich said:
When Minkowski was "calmed down" by the sick bay doc (can't remember his name), he said something about how he wasn't crazy -- that it had happened to Desmond, too -- and that they wouldn't be able to go back to the island. So it would seem at least some of the crew have been to the island before. Very cool.
Minkowski said "See Ray I’m not crazy. It’s happening to him to Ray. And it’s going to happen to you It’s going to happen to all of us everyone. Once we start heading toward that island again." The doctor gives him the shot and he says "It’s not going to stop it Ray. Nothing can stop it." Later Minkowski tells Desmond that they were anchored awaiting orders. They were bored so he and a crew member to out the ships tender. They just wanted to see the island but Brandon started going crazy and they had to turn back.
Based on that I don’t think any of them have been to the island or at least the crew hasn’t. I think when you get a certain distance from the island, within the electromagnetic field that’s when you start feeling the effects. Right now I think the boat is anchored outside that field but it seems like they may not be going to stay put. And as soon as they get within that range according to Minkowski they are all going to go crazy.
yle said:
Oh, and reading the AV Club review, I was reminded that we "met" a new Hanso last night: Tobard. Wonder how he fits it!
I think he’s the most recent generation of Hanso’s. He’s the one who is auctioning of f the journal.
Kyle said...Then we see that we're not perceiving reality; that 7-second delay then catches up over time so that after a while we're back to that 7-second delay.
What an excellent analogy!
Ange: Thanks! The more I think about it, the more I like it.
Event X is happening, and Audience Y is perceiving that event. But Force Z is causing the perception of that event to lag behind the actual perpetration of that event.
Maybe the button was the monitor on the strength of the delay, and the failsafe was the F-bomb that causes the delay to zero out. That's why Ben is trying to cut off all communication off the Island, because its secrecy was momentarily compromised by the destruction of the delay.
Maybe now that the button is gone, the delay isn't getting locked in a 7 seconds, and it's growing. That could be why Daniel is so upset by the 31-minute lag.
Lots of maybes there, but my mind is running with this parallel.
maven said... Why were dates crossed off in different colors on the 2004 calender? The dates in October (I think 20, 2l, 22, 24) are in yellow...why only those four dates?
My wife noticed that too. I don't see anything in the Lostpedia timeline that suggests anything.
The only thing I see on Wikipedia of any Lost significance is Baseball related:
Oct 20 - The Boston Red Sox beat the Yankees in the ACLS
Maybe those are the days Minkowski and Brandon tried to travel to the island?
BTW, The purpling doesn't happen until Nov 27.
rubygreeneyes said... If she didn't know about the boat when she was talking to Charlie, how did she know to call Minkowski on it?
I don't think she was calling Minkowski , I think she was just broadcasting her call for anyone to pick up, and Minkowski was told not to take that call. But it sounds like he did anyways, but until then, he would have known about her, but not necessarily vice versa.
Oh pooh I posted on the wrong page again. Let's try again.
Sorry for the long posts but I usually forget what I want to say if I read all of them and then post.
dennis said:
And what was the big deal about Sayid meeting Minkowski? Why was there a need to sound the alarm?
I thought the doctor sounded the alarm because he didn’t want Desmond talking to Dan on the phone.
maven said:
Welcome rubygreeneyes! You asked: Has anyone commented on or discussed why Frank isn't surprised that Desmond wasn't on the plane, like he was when he found out Juliette's name and realized she was a native?
Minkowski mentioned that they knew that Desmond was Penny's boyfriend, so perhaps Frank was told to be on the lookout for Desmond on the island. It seems that the crew knew about the Penny/Desmond relationship because Widmore is behind the freighter.
I know I found it odd that Frank didn’t argue with Desmond when he said he was going on the helicopter. I think Minkowski knows of Des and Pen because he answered the incoming call. I ‘m not sure how many if any others know Desmond. Frank introduced Sayid and Desmond and survivors of flight 815 when they landed.
capcom said:
Maybe Dan did not experience any 'flashes' until he crossed the island's EMF demarcation line on his way into the island. So he didn't need his constant until he started to get symptoms, or in case he might start. Just a thought. Doing all that EM work in his lab without the proper enclosures and apparel, he could get exposed for sure.
You put into words what I tried to and failed. I agree with this. I think when he found out he was going to the island he knew he might need a constant “if something goes wrong” because in 1996 Desmond told him the only thing he knew about him is that he was on an island.
maven said:
How did Des know to go to the auction house, and why did Papa Widmore give Des Penny's address? Did I miss something there? Widmore wanted to keep them apart.
My thought is he went to Widmore’s office and they told him he was at an auction. I think Widmore felt Penny was done with him and Des wouldn’t be able to change her mind and he would enjoy knowing Des would be humiliated again. Also I feel so stupid not realizing that the Southfields clue was an auction house.
Back to reading the comments. Hopefully my next post won't be as long.
I'm still very confused about why Minkowski and friend got unstuck and went nuts but Frank and Sayid haven't. Also I'm confused about Ben sending Michael and Walt "out" if this is going to be a problem. If they start freaking out they're more likely to tell why, though I guess people may not believe them.
Has anyone listened to the OLP yet? The link in iTunes seems to be broken.
BTW, Here is the photo of the calendar: http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season4/4x05/constant318.jpg
Marked in Yellow
• Oct 20, 21, 22, 23
Marked in Red
• November 4, 5, 11, 21, 27, 29, 30
• December 6, 7, 10, 14, 15, 18, 20
Frank tells Sayid he wants to help him or some such thing. I think that makes him a good candidate for door opener though I don't understand why he didn't stick around to help. I think Frank's main motivation is to rescue the 815ers and prove that the freckage is fake. Odd that he hasn't asked about the pilot though.
Sayid'sgirl said... I thought the doctor sounded the alarm because he didn’t want Desmond talking to Dan on the phone.
Right, but why was that a big deal? Just a general "don't talk to the prisoner" rule, or a "don't let them know what we know" rule. (Maybe its a "don't let the audience know" rule :)
memphish said... I'm still very confused about why Minkowski and friend got unstuck and went nuts but Frank and Sayid haven't.
I think you have to have been exposed to high levels of radiation first - like Desmond and Eloise. Maybe Minkowski working in the radio room was enough for him to be affected.
Memphish - I totally agree about it being odd that Frank hasn't asked about the pilot yet. And, regarding why Sayid and Frank aren't affected, Daniel did say only some people are affected. Plus they haven't been exposed to the radiation/electromagnetism so directly as Desmond was being in the hatch so long.
Heard an interesting theory on Jay and Jack -- the journal is Richard Alpert's. Another interesting one -- Charles Widmore is unstuck in time too.
memphish said... Has anyone listened to the OLP yet? The link in iTunes seems to be broken.
You can directly download the Offical Lost Podcast here.
I'm listening to it now...
Thanks Dennis. I like to be able to walk around as I listen. :-)
Some asked about Penny's phone calls. I agree that they were monitoring all incoming traffic to the area. Here's what Damon said about her calls last week to Jeff Jensen.
Someone at my office wants an answer to this question: Wasn't it just a little too convenient for Penny to be calling the Island at the exact same moment Charlie killed the dampening field in the season finale?
LINDELOF: Good question. Here's how we always thought of that: What we always imagined was that Penny has an auto dialer in the bedroom of her house and in various places that is constantly sending some sort of transmission to the coordinates that were revealed at the end of season 2. So when Charlie turned off the dampening field, her auto caller indicated that her call could go through.
I think this is my last long post. I'm almost caught up.Thanks for putting up with me.
emphis said:
Why are Minkowski and Brandon dead when this has only been happening to them a few days and Desmond isn't? Why were they affected off shore when no one else on Island seems to be affected?
I think they are dead because they didn’t have a constant. I also think the what happened to Desmond in the Swan is what gave him the high dose of electromagnetism and then when he went through the islands parameter is when he started having the effects that Minkowski did. I think the Swan event is separate. He didn’t continue to jump back in time after the Swan incident he had future flashes. It was only after he went through the islands parameter that he started to jump back in time over and over again like Minkowski but he was able to find a constant in those jumps.
diggitydirge said:
I tried to watch the epi with an open mind, but I once again arrived at the conclusion that Dan efforts to help Dez were selfish at best and with no real intention of helping Dez fix his issue. Dan knew Dez survived into the future and was on the island, so he immediately went into how to save myself mode.
Not saying 1996 Dan isn't a typical scientist. Any scientist who has been working on a theory and finally hits a breakthrough would be very pre-occupied with their research, but I never saw any huge effort from Dan to save Dez, or to tell Dez how to save himself. It seemed Dan was only interested in getting the answers he needed to succeed in his experiment and figuring out his constant.
Ok here’s my take on it. I could be wrong.
Des tells Dan where and when he’s jumping back in time. Dan knows they are in the same area in this time period and tells him where to find so he can help him. I believe future Dan wants to help Des. Past Dan doesn’t know Des or why he’s there thinks he’s being pranked until Des mentions Eloise. So past Dan assumes he sent future Des back to help himself with his equations, which he seems to be obsessed with. Des asks if he’s going to die like Eloise. In the process of explaining what happened to Eloise he gives Des the answer he needs, a constant. I don’t think Dan needs to use a constant until he jumps himself sometime after future Des leaves. It may when he goes to the island. He may know the properties of the island that may be how they got he him to go. Future Des tells him that they only thing he knows about him is that he ends up on an island. He remembers this and writes it in his journal “in case something goes wrong”. so he will have a constant. I don’t think he sent Des back just to complete his equations or to have a constant. But like I said I could be wrong.
ange said:
Also, going into the storm while leaving the island was what triggered the huge "side effect" that Desmond experienced. It's possible that if Locke or Eko has left the island the time travel would have progressed in them too leading to their demise.
I agree with this 100% . After Des was exposed to the high electromagnetism then left the island is when he started to experience the effects.
melissa said:
Am I misunderstanding this, or does the electromagnetism not cause side affects until you leave the island?
That is:
Des and Locke were both exposed. Des becomes unstuck only when he tries to leave the island. Locke is fine because he has not tried to leave. I think Desmond's first "flash" was a direct affect of the explosion itself, and not exactly the same as what happened last night (mostly because it all happened at once - he didn't go back and forth).
That's why Des is affected so fast (same as George was) - it only happened when he left.
That’ exactly what I’m thinking.
I'm following you Sayid's Girl, but what huge dose of electromagnetism or radiation have Minkowski and his friend been exposed to for them to get unstuck? What's more how have they passed into and back through the Island barrier?
Desmond sailed for 2 weeks and couldn't get through the barrier. Juliet knows that if Sayid, Sun and Jin have the Elizabeth they can't get out of the Island's reach either. So how could Minkowski and dude who are essentially going off the reservation with their sneak out after the parents are asleep escapade get in and out of the barrier.
I can buy the idea that you need radiation or electromagnetic exposure plus passing through the barrier, but I don't see how we have that info. on George and his wayward body-bagged pal.
Maven said:
We've do have to figure out why some people develop this time travel "skill" and others don't. I know exposure to radiation/electromagnetism is the reason Dan gives, but if Minkowski and Brandon developed this by only sailing close to the island, wouldn't you think everyone on the island would be doing this by now?
I’m having trouble with this one too. But we don’t know if Mankowski or Brandon had ever been exposed to radiation or electromagnetism. They may have. Also Dan did say it effects different people differently. So maybe people who haven’t been exposed to radiation or electromagnetism won’t be effected and time travel. Plus no one has left the island other than Sayid so we don’t know yet what may happen to the others. Like someone else said (sorry can’t remember who) this may be why Ben is afraid to let people leave the island and maybe why Danielle didn’t want her crew leaving the island. People coming back from the island then going crazy and dying would raise a lot of questions.
This may be why only six people get off the island, they’re the only one’s not effected.
I'm so glad to read others say that this is the best episode ever. I thought I may have been feeling that way myself as I do like me some Desmond, but it seems pretty universal. Maybe a lot of you are just pleased it wasn't another Eggtown. Anyway, I'm off to catch up
Ok I'm posting this to test if it shows up before I type and post my comments again for the third time only for them not to show up again.
I like me some Desmond too Carol! :-x
Wow, that would be so incredible if the journal was Richard's and he was one of the crew!
My co-worker and I were discussing short-hair Desmond today. :) Very nice!
I like the idea of time travel being the "sickness" that strikes Danielle's crew, but why does she feel the need to kill them? She makes it sound like she had to kill them because they were contagious. Did she just think that they were?
ok I give up eveytime I copy comment and try to post them they're disappearing. So I'm going to post without copying this time.
memphish
I don't know what Minkowski and Brandon have been exposed to but I feel they were exposed to something. Also I don't think they went to the island they just got close enough to be effected and had to turn back.
dennis
I don't think they wanted Des to talk to Dan because they didn't trust him or they think he knows more than they do. Don't know. They did seem to think he was crazy and couldn't even help himself let alone anyone else.
Dennis
Also if this post or at least 3 other similar ones end up all over the comments I apologize. You can just delete them.
I like the sickness/astral-travel thing too. And sure, I bet that Danielle and crew had no idea what it might have been. For all they knew, they were konking out, loosing their memories, getting violent, etc. This is good stuff!
I think the only guys you girls don't like are Jack, Bernard, & Locke. You love Sayid, Sawyer, Dez.......you're killing me.
I'm liking non-bearded Future Jack too Diggity. Just for the record. :D I'll pass on Bernard and Locke still.
Just read this on Gitsie Girl:25. Sayid gets the phone working and lets Desmond call his love. He could have called for help, but decides this call is more important. I am happy that he did, but I worry that when Ben told Sayid (in the future flash) to remember the last time he thought with his heart before his head what happened… I’m hoping that this call doesn’t lead to very bad things. Another good take on the heart over the head.
On the thought that the sickness may be related to being unstuck in time:
How can we reconcile this with the Lost jigsaw puzzle message that "there is no sickness"?
The puzzle message are supposed to be canon.
memphis said:
I'm not convinced that time still isn't running differently on and off Island. Yes on the boat and at Penny's it's Dec. 24th, but I'm convinced on the Island it's later. Sayid says to Frank that we took off and dusk and now it's mid-day. I guess the answer could be a Truman Show dome where Ben controls how many times the sun rises and sets, but I think we've clearly seen 2 days pass on Island and only about 1/2 day on the boat.
I agree with you I'm not convienced the time isn't different either. I posted this earlier today but I think it ended up in the older posts.
Des just stands out cuz he's so romantic, Diggity. :-) Dan's cool cuz he's so sweet and gentle. Sawyer's too bad-boy for me, too high-maintenance on the trouble-o-meter. Miles is weird, but his weirdness intrigues me. And there is something about Frank...maybe that old-guy-who's-been-around-the-block aura. :o) But he might smell too boozy.
I think the rest of the guys you mention are cool, but a bit too much on the whiney side for my tastes. Oh yeah, and Boone's eyes were like limpid pools....or however that poem goes. Heheh.
I'm still thinking that the "heart over head" incident will somehow involve Sayid's efforts to find Nadia after he gets off the island (with something tragic happening to Naida). So it is an event we haven't seen yet.
diggety said:
I think the only guys you girls don't like are Jack, Bernard, & Locke. You love Sayid, Sawyer, Dez.......you're killing me.
LOL
I think Sayid and Des are hot. Sawyer is the bad boy all girls love. And who could resist those dimples. :) Personally as far as Jack I don't find him all that attractive. How ever I don't mind Locke and Bernard.
As far as personality Locke and Jack also just plain annoy me and tick me off most of the time.
blueheron13 said...On the thought that the sickness may be related to being unstuck in time:
How can we reconcile this with the Lost jigsaw puzzle message that "there is no sickness"?
When I posted that about Danielle and the sickness earlier it really was all gut instinct after seeing Minkowski STRAPPED down and yelling like a lunatic.
It just seemed like he was acting "sick" and violent, which makes a progression to how Danielle described her people. So, maybe there is no sickness in that going mad from time jumping with your mind and then having a brain anuerysm isn't a "sickness" so much as it's something that is happening that looks like one.
blueheron13 said:
On the thought that the sickness may be related to being unstuck in time:
How can we reconcile this with the Lost jigsaw puzzle message that "there is no sickness"?
The puzzle message are supposed to be canon.
I'm not sure the islands effects can be considered a sickness. Just my opinion.
ange
You got there before I did. But I'm finally caught up. Whew!!
sometimes I feel the men are so outnumbered here :)
We barely have any hotties. Claire is way hot! Period the end.
Kate is ok (looks better off island) has great eyes, Shannon was way to skinny, Juliett is cute, and then we have the extremly hot Rose. Libby and Ana were semi hot, but TPTB kills most of the good looking women.
What about Sun Diggity?
And don't forget the blood coming out your nose Ange. That plus pale and collapsing says sick to me.
I agree that "there is no sickness" could mean that there is no biological disease, not that there is no "condition" at all. Someone (Radzinski?) could have figured out that it's not a biological problem, it's mental/temporal problem.
Good point about the nosebleed Memphish. Although I was thinking that was caused by trauma or elevated blood pressure from being so worked up and confused.
Good thoughts about the sickness. I forgot that the messages were written by people in the hatch, and are not direct answers from TPTB.
Speaking of TPTB, stay away from the new OLP if you are spoiler averse. If you like spoilers, though, there is some pretty interesting stuff.
OMG Blueheron you just SAVED THE DAY! I literally just put the OLP on my iPhone and was about to hunker down with it on the treadmill at the gym. Hooray for you, and thanks!
blueheron13
I don't usually find the OLP to really have spoilers. I usually listen to it. Is it worse than it usually is?
I know ange I was just about to listen to it too. Now I'm not sure if I want to.
For our physics lesson today, here’s some quick research I did on the page in Dan’s notebook with the transecting lines labeled: Imaginary Space, Imaginary Time, etc. (see screencap at DarkUFO)
http://www.quantonics.com/Einstein_Minkowski_Space_Time_Diagram.html : “Timelike separated events appear earlier or later in real time for all observers. Earlier/later relations for timelike events are preserved." Sounds a little like Dez's mental traveling, and this page shows the Minkowski triangle which looks similar to what Dan drew in his notebook.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_time : “If we imagine "regular time" as a horizontal line with "past" on one side and "future" on the other, then imaginary time would run perpendicular to this.” This reads like it would look like Dan’s drawing where Imaginary Time is running perp to the other lines.
Now that we’ve moved to the mental/temporal zone of time travel, I feel like all the research that we did on the physical time travel was for naught! :-(
I think the OLP is more spoilery than usual. Can anyone else who heard it weigh in with an opinion?
In the meantime, I'll type up a spoiler-free summary.
Thanks blueheron13
thanks for reminding me that I missed Sun. She has been out of the picture so far this season that I forgot. Sun is hot!
Hello everybody!
I just listned to the OLP, and yes, it is spoilery to point about the next episode, but my mind was just trying to wrap around what they said at first about this episode, so I hardly noticed...
The OLP has made me very confused about the "time-travel" and I think in Darlton's aversion to a regular back-in-time paradox that they DON'T want to create, they have created a scenario that is even hard to understand.
I wrote what they said in a notepad file... here it is... NO SPOILERS here:
Damon says on the OLP:
"Desmond, from 1994, his consciousness is time-travelling into 2004 on the freighter. So, the Desmond that we know and love is very confused because it's a guy from the past who is currently in military camp."
Then Carlton says:
"Somehow it's easier for people to understand the notion of someone time-travelling backwards, but the idea is that the show is set on the island in 2004, but someone is travelling forward from 1994, that was pretty hard to...."
Then Damon says:
"I always think like if I were.. suddenly if I was in my body ten years from now, I'd be very confused about what was going on and who I was around and why I was writing on carnivore and all these various things..."
Damon says they are very paradox averse and when our characters are time-travelling, nothing that they do can change the present or the future that we have seen, which is different from the conventional "Back to the Future" time-travel story telling. They want the audience to be invested in the flash-forwards. That the flash-forwards are NOT a changeable reality, as far as time-travel goes. Characters will not pop up in alternate realities. It's not like in Heroes where Hero goes back in time and says there's a catastrophy going to happen unless you guys go save the cheerleader. Their intention is not that the conscioussnous time-travel will change anything in the future depending on how events in the past play out.
Wellllllll
First of all, I think they meant 1996 when talking of when Des was in the Army?
Secondly,
How could they say that Desmond's 1996 future flash of being on the freighter in 2004 (and thus telling Penny he'll be calling her Christmas Eve 2004) is not an event in the past that effected how the future was going to play out???? He never would have gone to the auction to even find out where she was if it had not been for his flash to 2004. He wouldn't have gotten her phone number.
Yeah, Diggity, and the first season had bikinis and underwear all over it! :-)
capcom said:
Now that we’ve moved to the mental/temporal zone of time travel, I feel like all the research that we did on the physical time travel was for naught! :-(
I know it does, doesn't it.
And unlike memphish I have a harder time wrapping my head (no pun intended) around mental time travel than physical time travel.
I just have a hard time accepting my mind can travel without my body.
It seems more like hypnotism to me. But that could connect us to room 23 I guess.
Maybe I need to reasearch it to see whether or not I can believe the possiblity.
Spoiler-free summary of the Official Lost Podcast, part 1:
- Re-confirmation that the 3 "lost" hours from Season 4 will be added somewhere along the way in Seasons 5 and 6.
- What we saw in "The Constant" was time travel into the future: Desmond's 1996 (they accidentally say "1994" for some reason) consciousness travelled forward into Desmond's 2004 body.
- Time travel on Lost does NOT involve paradoxes.
- Damon says that when Lost characters time travel into the past, "nothing that they do can change the present or future you have seen".
- Damon clarifies that if you go back into the past and do something you didn't do before, the course-correcting rules that Mrs. Hawking spelled out will smooth things out.
- Damon says that reality is not changeable via the mechanism of time travel, but stops short of saying that reality is not changeable at all (I hope that's not considered a spoiler!).
I'm working on trying to find something that might put it all in a temporal-nutshell for us, Sayidsgirl! :-o
Oops, you beat me to the post, Codysmom.
I'm still pondering your questions, and I'll add one more:
What happened to Desmond's 2004 consciousness when his 1996 consciousness replaced it? It didn't "switch places" and go into the 1996 Desmond's body. Well, wherever it went, at least it came back by the end of the episode!
sayid'sgirl, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this mental forward time-travel, too.
So, it's not that 2004 Desmond's mind is travelling back in time, it's 1996 Desmond's mind travelling forward to 2004.
When we see Desmond "jumping" between 1996 and 2004, it seems to me more like it's going both ways...
I still haven't re-watched the episode yet, but I will look at it this way when I do
Someone was asking how the "non-obsessed" fans were taking this episode... My daughter thought it was an awful episode that it was silly and didn't make sense.
blueheron13 said..
What happened to Desmond's 2004 consciousness when his 1996 consciousness replaced it? It didn't "switch places" and go into the 1996 Desmond's body. Well, wherever it went, at least it came back by the end of the episode!
LOL, I guess it's confusing to me here, also, because if Des' 2004's consciousness is gone for the moments we see him in 1996, wouldn't he be catatonic instead of trying to figure out who Sayid was?
Did that make sense or am I totally losing it? LOL
Codysmom, you're not losing it, but I didn't understand your last question :)
Didn't Des, and Minkowski, and Eloise, go sort of catatonic while they were in traveling mode? Each time he switched, it was like he was waking up.
blueheron, maybe I am losing it... LOL
you said... What happened to Desmond's 2004 consciousness when his 1996 consciousness replaced it?
What I was trying to say is, when we see Desmond flashing forward when he's in the army, it seems that his mind is just gone. ie, he doesn't hear his drill sargeant, thinks he's in a dream... in other words, he is "zoned out" from what's happening in the present.
But... when we see the 2004 Desmond on the freighter, he isn't "zoned out", right? He's frantically wondering who he is, etc.
So, I guess this could be that's because 2004 is the "real" present, but to me, this is kind of confusing.
Well, with all this in mind, I'm going to go re-watch the episode now, while I hem my pants to wear at a reception tomorrow..
bbl
codysmom said:
Secondly,
How could they say that Desmond's 1996 future flash of being on the freighter in 2004 (and thus telling Penny he'll be calling her Christmas Eve 2004) is not an event in the past that effected how the future was going to play out???? He never would have gone to the auction to even find out where she was if it had not been for his flash to 2004. He wouldn't have gotten her phone number.
I think the effects of what happened to Desmond in the future
2004 was effecting past Desmond. Dan tells future Des (which is acutally past Des in the future)that when he goes back to his time in the past to come find him which give him information on how to unstick his past self from the future where he doesn't belong. Which means he didn't change the future he just found a way to stay in his own time from a future source.
Does that make any since? It is very complicated. But I think I understand it.
Made sense to me Sayidsgirl!
codysmom said:
What I was trying to say is, when we see Desmond flashing forward when he's in the army, it seems that his mind is just gone. ie, he doesn't hear his drill sargeant, thinks he's in a dream... in other words, he is "zoned out" from what's happening in the present.
But... when we see the 2004 Desmond on the freighter, he isn't "zoned out", right? He's frantically wondering who he is, etc.
When Desmond seems like he's out of it and not hearing his Sgt. he's in transition from coming back from the future and is diorientied.
When he's freaking out on the freighter that's Desmond from 1996in the future and he doesn't know where he is and who people are.
oops didn't get all of your quote in italics.
This should be in italics too.
But... when we see the 2004 Desmond on the freighter, he isn't "zoned out", right? He's frantically wondering who he is, etc.
I think it's only Desmond's 1996 consciousness that was bouncing back and forth. Here's how I look at it:
Let's consider these four spacetime events:
A- The moment in 1996 that Desmond's consciousness first travels forward in time (at Camp Millar, just before Des fails to get out of bed and subsequently gets chewed out for "dreaming").
B- The moment in 1996 when Desmond pauses and smiles while walking away from Penny's flat.
C- The moment in 2004 when the thunderstorm causes the helicopter to veer slightly off course on the way to the freighter.
D- The moment in 2004 when Desmond and Penny confess their love via the freighter phone connection.
I believe that between events "A" and "B" in 1996, Desmond's consciousness jumps forward several times to 2004. It is during these jumps that we see what happens between events "C" and "D" in 2004.
To put it another way, when Desmond's mind leaves him during the A-B timeline, he becomes catatonic in 1996. When it comes back, the Desmond of 1996 revives (and acts in a lucid manner), while the Desmond of 2004 becomes catatonic (I'm guessing, although I don't think we see this on screen, do we?). Similarly, when Desmond's 1996 mind arrives at various points along the C-D timeline, Desmond in 2004 is alert (but thoroughly confused) while Desmond in 1996 becomes catatonic. This cycle happens several times.
What's strange is that event C apparently "caused" event A to take place. Also, event D apparently "causes" event B to take place.
Of course, if all of time is fixed and unalterable, so that the future and destiny can't be changed, is there really such a thing as "cause and effect"?
Finally, I'm assuming that after event B takes place, 1996 Desmond returns to normal (he somehow realizes his consciousness will stop jumping into the future). And likewise, after event D takes place, 2004 Desmond returns to normal (his 2004 consciousness returns from wherever it shuffled off to).
Does that make any sense to anyone?
It kind of does, Blueheron. :-)
I've been looking up Out of Body Experiences (OBEs) and also came up with this: "research also found evidence for objective neural difference between periods of remote viewing in two individuals thought to have psychic abilities." I have no idea what objective neural difference means, but the remote viewing caught my eye, since that was a part of the research of the DI. So I can grasp the time jumping thing better, when thinking of it in terms of Remote Viewing. RV can also be done, it is said, in the past and future, not just in the present. It's also said to drive most who do it crazy.
blueheron13
I understand and agree with you.
Memphish said: I'm following you Sayid's Girl, but what huge dose of electromagnetism or radiation have Minkowski and his friend been exposed to for them to get unstuck?
Maybe being a Communications Officer exposes him to a lot of electromagnetism (and maybe Brandon works with him).
Codysmom said: Someone was asking how the "non-obsessed" fans were taking this episode... My daughter thought it was an awful episode that it was silly and didn't make sense.
OMG, I spent the day with two friends who are casual viewers of the show and just didn't get it! They were so confused and thought it was dumb. I was so frustrated all day! I tried to explain things, but they don't remember characters names, how things connect with each other...they didn't even remember anything about the Black Rock. Ugh! I'm worried that some of the LOST audience might be getting disappointed and lose interest.
Maven, that might explain why the pop-ups on the enhanced reruns are so very basic and dumbed-down. Maybe they are trying to hook the "casuals" who don't get it, with the explanations. It will be interesting to see how they 'splain all this time traveling stuff in next week's pop-ups! :-D
More non-spoiler OLP stuff:
Spoilers begin at about the 7:00 mark. They start talking about who the next episode will focus on, how long we will have to wait to get a definitive answer on who the Oceanic 6 are, and if we will learn more about Richard Alpert's troop of Others.
The biggest spoiler comes during the discussion of the polar bear in Tunisia. They also talk about Daniel's memory issues, but I won't say what they said.
Anyway, the rest of the non-spoiler stuff from the OLP:
- It doesn't matter who the two people were who "died" in the Oceanic 6's cover story.
- Carlton's favorite DHARMA product is the boxed wine.
- The title "Eggtown" refers to the eggs that Locke cooked, as well as the pregnancy issues in the episode.
- Daniel Faraday has nothing to do with Ana Lucia.
I agree, Capcom. The "pop up" writers have their work cut out for them this week.
See you all later and thanks for reading my long-winded theory.
Blue Heron I followed your ABCD and think you nailed it perfectly. We definitely have chicken and egg causation issue confusion at play.
Here's something I wish someone could ask Darlton. Didn't they say last year after "Flashes Before Your Eyes" that Desmond did change things? Like don't we have 2 pictures now? I understand the course correction concept, but still first they've said Desmond traveled in time and changed things and now they're saying you can't do things in the past to change the future. Or is it just that they mean the future that we've already been shown via the flashforwards? I bet that's what they mean.
Thanks for the heads-up on the OLP. I think I'll save it until after the next episode. I already know more about it than I really want to.
And thanks for the reports in from the unwashed masses otherwise known as the casual LOST viewer. I was afraid that might be the case. I was practically drooling over that auction scene while I bet other people were like, "Hey, there's the guy from Ugly Betty."
Yeah, memphish, I think Darlton didn't want us to get worried they were going to trick us and say "haha, we changed that flash forward on you."
BUT, this may be semantics, but Dan's assertion that "you can't change the future" is technically incorrect. Or does he say "affect?" Either way, even though it is 1996's consciousness that moves, 1996 Des SAVES 2004 Des, by getting that phone number for 2004 Des. If 1996 did NOT go see Penny, 2004 Des would be dead. So I think maybe Dan's character belief may be incorrect.
Also, based on Des's line in 2004, "it was enough", he clearly remembers the whole time-jump thing. The question is, do the past-selves, who did the jumping, remember? It sure didn't seem like Dan or Des recognized each other up until now (they saw each other on the island and neither said, "HEY, you're that dude from 8 years ago").
Lastly, casual Losties are getting turned off. My office is full of devouts, but a friend's mother turned it off recently because it was just too confusing. They may need to hit us over the head with explanations soon to appease the casual viewer.
Ok this madness has got to stop!
No- not the madness on LOST, the madness in my life that is keeping me from keeping up on here! Stuff keeps happening today, and I still haven't caught up (and I thought it would be a quiet day- huh).
So my time is short right now and so I am just going to throw out some WAY WAY out there thoughts I had (so if they're already mentioned or there's info out there to debunk them, then just ignore me):
1) What if Daddy Widmore is another "course correcting" person like Mrs. Hawking and her monk friend. Someone mentioned that they thought Widmore knew that Desmond was time travelling and I totally agree. That was the feeling I had- was that he knew something was up with Desmond. What if everything he's done to Desmond so far was to get/keep Desmond on path to the island. And the reason he bought the Hanso journal and gave Desmond Penny's address was to help them get together so that in the future Penny could be Desmond's constant? Maybe he doesn't really hate Desmond, but knew he needed to make him think that to bring about Des getting to the island. Of course, I have no idea why these people seem to keep intersecting in Des' world, or what Des' destiny is that he needs to go through all this trouble.
2) What if the reason Jack is so messed up in TTLG is because he started having flashes and it's driving him "crazy" too. Maybe that's why Hurley is ready to go to the mental hospital. Maybe they think that if they physically get back to the island that the flashes/time travel would stop, or that they would be able to stop something that they know is going to happen. Maybe they don't have a constant (or maybe it's Jack's constant in the coffin). Of course there's Kate and Sayid who seem to be doing fine- but what if they have constants. Kate's = Aaron and Sayid's= Ben. I started thinking of Ben leaving the island on a regular basis, yet he seems to be fine- so what if there are certain "special" people (i.e. Walt, Aaron, Ben) who could transcend the side effects and travel consciously w/o going nuts. Then they could serve as anchors for those O6. Maybe that's why Kate is not motivated at all to get back. And maybe there is a really twisted plot that explains that it is because of this that Kate ends up with Aaron- that she will need Aaron in the future to be her constant. Then Abaddon coming along to Hurley asking if "they" were still alive, maybe it has to do with certain time travellers rather than just a random group of survivors. Wow, I really wish I could express myself more clearly- sheesh- but hopefully you guys will get the gist.
Well, I told you they were OUT there. hehe
And re: Charlotte and her annoying self- I was so hoping that Juliet would've opened a can of whoop #$%! on her last night...well, there's always hope for next week. :)
Blueheron: Thanks for laying out the ABCD scenario. It does kinda make sense.
Right on about Charlotte Scoutpost. If Juliet doesn't take her out next week, I may have to do it.
In listening to the OLP, and their explanation of Desmond really traveling forward in time from 1996 to island 2004: I think I really got it when you see 2004 Desmond take a look in the mirror in the sick bay and seems even more bewildered seeing himself with the bushy hair and looking older. We're not looking back on 1996 from 2004, but looking forward from 1996 to 2004.
What ever happened to Naomi's body? Sayid seemed so concerned about it on the island, and now nothing. Now I know he's concerned about Desmond, but not even Frank or Keamy and Omar seem to mention or notice or smell Naomi!
Yeah, Naomi should be a-stinkin' about now, Maven! Or, maybe with the time differential, she went into rigor, then went back out of it, and then back into it again, so not much decompostion has actually happened as yet since they took off from the island. :-B
Wow, what they say about Dr.Candlewaxwick's arm in the OLP is hi-larious! :-D
i think mental time travel is the flavor of the day but physical time travel is still in play, probably one of the only ways to explain why richard stays so young, From my perspective the orchid video shows physical time travel, thats why candle freaks out because rather than just the person getting an aneurysm the whole unverse could end from someone seeing themselves, ala the 2 number 15 bunnies in the same place...
p.s who cares if the regular sheep stick with the show its not getting canceled, they have a firm deal til 2010, im sure the rating will go up when greys anoatomy comes back anyway
am I sadistic for loving how confuzzled everyone is???
for the casual viewers sake I was kinda hoping things wouldn't get too scifi, but I really am lapping all this up!
Funny recap via TMZ:
http://www.tmz.com/2008/02/29/lost-diary-the-constant/#continuedcontents
ok, you are warned this will be long! Hopefully I have pulled all my thoughts together and summarise my understanding of the episode:
the mental time jumps begin (a persons consiousness is not present for the first time) when you have been exposed to high radiation/electromagnetism AND you travel to/from the island (or in Eloise's case, something that replicates the situation). We simply haven't seen when Minkowski and the other guy have been exposed to it. Leaving the island could be a catalyst (speeds things up) rather than a trigger (the final ingredient) but at the moment I don't think we can be sure, it's just my gut saying it's the later.
I think the jumps stop when you reconnected with your constant. I'm not sure whether to view the constant as an anchor, a plug or what. I think constants not only have to be something important to the person mentally time jumping, but they have to be important at both times (where the person is jumping from and where they are jumping to). I think that whole bit of Desmond walking away from Penny's flat is a flashback not time travel. It coincides with her answering the call (so I think blueheron's point D is slightly mis-placed) and I think that is the moment that his 2004 consciousness resumes control (if you like) of his 2004 body and his 1996 consciousness settles permenantly in his 1996 body.
As for Des getting Penny's number in the past to call her in the future, I think him doing that was the reason Penny didn't let go of her love for him... why she cared enough to show up at the stadium before he took off on his sailing race etc etc (an event we have already seen thus Desmond's 1996 presence in 2004 didn't change that). Also, remember when Desmond gets out of prison Widmore tells him to leave Penny alone... suggesting there had been contact after their initial break up. Like someone else said, maybe the reason Widmore did give Desmond Penny's address was because he was sure she would reject him. So it's possile that whole sequence of events always happened - Desmond always got Penny's addy from Widmore, Desmond always visited Penny, got her number and rekindled her interest in him, Widmore always tried to bribe Desmond to leave Penny alone and Penny never gave up on Desmond, searching for him before and after the sailing race.
I too had a little query about Des and Dan not recognising each other, but I think it could be accepted that they didn't. Dan has memory issues as we know, and Desmond wasn't in Dan's prescence very long so I guess it's possible that the cogs just hadn't turned enough (it happens to me all the time)
I found Dan's disreguard for his head during his experiment interesting. You'd think he'd care about his brain just as much if not more than the organs in his body. Makes me think he felt he was already a little gone in the head (or the radiation would fix him?). I'm not sure that he has reached the "things have gone wrong" stage yet, but at least he is prepared.
a few other minor points -
I thought the alarm that went of in the sickbay was EXCTLY like the one in the hatch when a lockdown was happening. The ship also had a similar neglected feel to the hatches, all that is quite possibly red herrings.
crossed out dated on the calendar - they couldn't find any other pen when it came to cross out those late Oct dates so had to use yellow ;-Þ
I will also pass on Locke, Bernard and Jack. LOL. I think I prefer long hair Des (I'm lovin' long hair Sawyer and glad Kate won't be around to give him another trim) because he likes wearing that blue shirt that seems to have conveniently malfunctioning buttons... I'm not usually one for bad boys, but then I do see that other side of Sawyer
I agree with what Ange said about the sickness. Although when watching the show thought Minkowski may have been strapped down for his own safety (he wouldn't want to go catatonic and fall off the ship, or down stairs etc)
Capcom, thanks for that stuff about remote viewing
And that's just that stuff... I have a theory about the time difference and going to/coming from the island but I think that is enough for now
LOL Carol, that really wasn't that long (especially not in a maximized window), and well said.
So Carol said...the mental time jumps begin (a persons consiousness is not present for the first time) when you have been exposed to high radiation/electromagnetism AND you travel to/from the island (or in Eloise's case, something that replicates the situation).
See I still think that is what they are doing in Room 23. Trying to replicate the situation and make it happen in a controlled manor. And add to that the weird sayings in the Room 23 images it seems like it might also be trying to instill an allegiance to Jacob while maybe suggesting places/times to take a little brain trip too.
carol said:
I found Dan's disreguard for his head during his experiment interesting. You'd think he'd care about his brain just as much if not more than the organs in his body.
When I read this a thought popped into my head that hadn't before. Maybe Dan thinks his brain needs to absorb the radiation for his mind to time travel.
ange
I'm starting think along the same path as you about Room 23.
omgosh. Loved that episode. So many answers. So glad I avoided spoilers.
Ditto on all the comments!
And I'll see ya'll tomorrow.
Finally caught up! :P Of course only because no one's here now! LOL
Blue Heron- I think you did a great job of explaining using the ABCD examples. I follow you on that.
memphish- re: changing the future- I think TPTB are talking specifically about the FF we have seen rather than saying generally that changing the past won't change the future. So that when we see a FF we can count on the fact that it is set and will not change (thank goodness something we can count on). At least that is how I understand it.
I haven't even asked my casual viewer friends what they think- I'm afraid to ask, and don't really want to hear their complaints :P My husband hasn't seen it yet, so that will be enough of a test.
One of my favorite comments this season came from Erika at her longlivelocke blog. She says this in her review of "The Economist":
If you didn't guess that the payload was going to show up much later than expected, then I really think you need to stop watching this show. It's only going to get more complicated from here on out, and you just do not have the mental ability necessary to keep up.
Honestly, poor casual viewers ;)
Ah Ange, I didn't quite what you were saying about Room 23 before (well I thought I did but obviously not). I guess until we see someone in a catatonic state we won't know that they have succeeded. I guess the other thing is we won't know whether it is due to the room or them leaving.
Oh and I just had another thought, what if how much exposure to radiation/electromagnetism affects how quickly and how severe your mental time jumps are? I too wondered if Dan was trying to trigger them in himself, but still didn't want issues with his other organs ;-)
I hate tis time of day, noone is here to post between my comments and I feel like I am spamming.
I was just reading over comments in the last Oceanic Conspiracies post and saw Memphish comment "And there's a Queens at Oxford where Charlotte had some schooling. " I hadn't quite put those two together, so thanks for that. I wonder if they knew or were aware that they had both been there.
I've done some thinking about Faraday's choice of words in his journal. He says "If anything goes wrong" Desmond will be his constant. This means to me that he isn't planning to become unstuck in time, but that he feels what he does might make him so if things go awry. I would assume that whatever experiment Daniel's planning (perhaps in the Orchid station?) has the potential to unstick him.
Good Morning Everyone!
I finally caught up with these massive (and most excellent)
posts, and I thought I would interject some personal knowledge that might shed a little light on the subject of time traveling with the consciousness.
For 20 years I studied with the Rosicrucians (AMORC). I no longer associate myself with them, however I do remember much of their teaching.
Essentially in a nutshell:
The Rosicrucians offer "lessons" to their members by correspondence course and classroom concerning human consciousness and being able to control one's own consciousness.
These lessons consist of a progression of monographs containing scientific discourses and lab experiments which help to "train" the mind and expand it to the point that one can control the inherent ability within it to step "outside of time and space", look at the timeline and interject the consciousness into it at any point. They do not subscribe to the idea of corporeal time travel at this point purely because of the paradoxes it could create. One can observe only and perhaps understand how decisions, actions and consequences affect the timeline, therefore motivating one to learn to live on a higher level of morality. Eventually, one reaches the "highest" consciousness and become part of the egregore (for stargate fans-the "ascended").This egregore is
a storehouse of the combined wisdom, knowledge and "higher-
level" morality (essentially the "goodness")of all human-
kind. The events of the timeline are also stored and are referred to as the Akashic Records. Both of these can be accessed when one has developed enough of the ability to
travel with the connsciousness.
I really think that LOST follows along these lines in many ways. Many of the experiments that are used to train the mind are reminiscent of the Dharma experiments. Dharma, however
"force-fed" this knowledge (Rm 23, Dan's machine at Oxford, the explosion of the hatch, etc.) and sometimes caused subjects great pain, anguish and even death. I
believe this is why the consciousness(es) present on the
island are angry about Dharma and the freighters, etc. You cannot force your way into this ability without consequences, sometimes dire consequences. The show has touched on the scientific aspect of these teachings, so I wonder if they will also touch upon the esoteric aspects? Perhaps through Richard and the Others at the temple? I certainly look forward to upcoming episodes and future seasons...
Please note: blogger is acting wonky, and if this post is a repeat, my apologies...
xxoo
I hear that the Lost game is really good for fans of the show. I think I am going to pick it up this weekend. My wife was kind of turned off by the show this past week. She said it seemed like they are really grasping at straws on how to explain things. I told her she was nuts!! I loved this episode. It may have been a bit cerebral or technical but overall I loved it. But I am a Desmond fan too.
See ya in another life brother!
I will be on here at some point on Wednesday to catch up with all of you...
Peace & Namaste!
sorry for double post, if this is a double post, my other post has disapeared. anyway here my theory about the island.
What if the island is not only a hole in time and space, but also fate.
the way i see lost doing the whole time thing is that time repeats itself, over and over again, for example me posting this, another me would be post this, be it a second behind or a few years bhind, antoher me in that timeline would post this at this time.
but what if desmonds brain had fried while his concious was in 1996, would that have killed him in 1996? If so, then his fate would have changed, and he would never get to the island. That would also change the future, which faraday said you couldn't do. This led to my theory about faradays diary, and desmond being his constant. I think Faraday never knew desmond before he landed on the island, but when desmond went back in time he changed the future, so faraday did know desmond before he landed on the island. so when Faraday landed on the island there was nothing in his diary about desmond being his constant, but in episode 5 it suddenly appeared, due to desmond meeting faraday in the past.
confusing I know, but thats what makes Lost great.
Ellen: That is some really interesting information, and I think it goes along very well with what seems to be developing plot wise. It also ties in with the Room 23 idea. It also reminds me of the book Somewhere in Time (aka Bid Time Return) by Richard Matheson.
Thewonderllama: What a good observation. It could mean that Dan hasn't traveled yet, but will soon. But if Desmond is now on the freighter and not the island, Dan might be in trouble with his constant gone.
Dale: Whoa! Yeah that has been bugging me that all this time (well since 1996) Dan has had that big IN RED entry about Desmond, but didn't remember it until just then. Although I have been going with a story telling device on that, but I really like what you said about how it could have appeared. Because you're right, if Dan knew Desmond I feel we would have been given some sort of dialogue about him recognizing Des.
Dale, you bring up a good point about that last scene. I thought it was ambiguous as to whether or not that note existed before Desmond called Penny. I'm not sure how to read it right now, but your suggestion is definitely one possibility.
Ellen, thanks for the information. Back during Stranger in a Strange Land J. Wood linked the mark on Juliet's back to the Rosicrucians. You can check that article out again here.
During that episode, everyone's favorite I know, we went back on forth about whether Juliet's trial and marking was really punishment or a symbol of status in the Others society. Ben always talks about people needed to commit to them through a gesture. Allowing yourself to be branded is a pretty big gesture in my book. I could see TPTB using some of these ideas to explain how Ben, Alpert, and perhaps other Others are able to successfully move within and without the Island's sphere.
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