The discussion is mounting (free from Word Verifications...Woohoo!). To alleviate the lag time waiting for the comments page to load, we give you this post. Take a minute to review the comments on the first post for this episode to avoid rehashing something that has already been hashed to death. If you've never participated in the lively conversations on this blog, now is the time to jump right in!
Thursday, May 03, 2007
THE BRIG - SEASON 3, EPISODE 19 (POST 2)
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So probably the biggest question from The Brig to me is how (and when) did Cooper get to the Island? Ben insists Locke did it, first 8 days ago:
Locke: Dad? What is this?
Ben: You tell me. You brought him here.
Locke: I didn't bring him here.
Locke: Where did you find him? Wha...Why did you bring him here?
Ben: I've already said we didn't.
then again 3 days ago:
Ben: You're still crippled by the memories of the man you used to be before you came to this island. And you'll never be free until you release the hold that your father has over you. Why do you think you brought him here?
Locke: Oh, oh, oh, the magic box. Okay, Ben, how about you show me the magic...
Ben: [Interrupting] The magic box is a metaphor, John. I can't show you anything until you can show me that you're ready and willing to be one of us.
Now the obvious explanation of how he got there is that Mittelos brought him there the same way they brought Juliet, but why would they do that? And is it not the case that bringing him to the Island would have had to be accomplished pre-Purpling. Everything we've heard from Tom and Mikhail suggests that since the Purpling you can't return to the Island on purpose.
So did Ben have him brought there? I'd like to suggest that he did not, but that Cooper's presence on the Island is a con on Ben being perpetrated by the non-Ben faction which I think includes Mikhail and Alpert.
Ben's problems started when the Others learned that a man on the plane couldn't walk before he got to the Island and could as soon as he crash-landed. Alpert tells Locke:
Cause when word got back here that there was a man with a broken spine on the plane who could suddenly walk again, well, people here began to get very excited because that...that could only happen to someone who was extremely special. Ben doesn't want anyone to think you're special, John.
Locke's exchange with Cindy confirms this as well:
[The Others at the next tent over stare at Cindy and Locke]
Cindy Don't mind them. They're all just excited you're here.
Locke Excited?
Cindy We've been waiting for you.
So how did this information "get back" to the Others. The obvious first answer has to be Mikhail who was tasked by Ben to gather the information on the LOSTies. Alpert was in Florida when the plane crashed. I think Mikhail contacted Alpert before he left for the Island with the information about Locke, saw the opening those who wanted a change had been looking for and Alpert brought Cooper to the Island when he returned then told Ben Locke conjured him through the box.
Hey Ange! What you said about Phuket Jack is right. So Mr. Nice guy of the first 65 days is gone and we're back to Mr. Lonely, and Frightened, and Angry. I really disliked SIASL.
Back in a few. Saturday morning doughnut run.
Hi All, sorry I didn't get back to the replies last night. It was Friday mind :)
1) I agree with everyone that it would be disapointing if the Dharma flashbacks turn out to be bogus. But if it is Ben telling it, part of it may be bogus at least. Not much getting around that.
2) I think it's worth bearing in mind that Lockes dad didn't exactly confirm what Naomi said about the plane (I had to go back and re-watch to double check that mind as I wasn't sure after Maven mentioned that). The research I did before this episode suggested to me that if they had found part of the wreckage (hence Sayids questions to Naomo, I believe) after around a month that would easily be enough time for them to declare everyone dead. Two key points with that: Firstly because of the insurance claims by family members (as well as letting them have closure) there would be no need to hold off of officially saying everyone is dead, especially if wreckage was found nowhere near land & secondly The tail section landed in the sea, and it's the tail section which commonly holds the FDR, Flight Data Recorder, aka the Black Box. Should that end up being pushed back out to sea and discovered somewhere where there wasn't supposed to be an island I can definetly see them declaring the wreckage found and everyone dead. They wouldn't expect to find all the wreckage or all the bodies nor would they be looking for it. It's only Naomi that is saying the whole thing was found along with all the bodies and frankly I would find that very hard to believe. Also if she is an Other, we have already seen the way they like to convince people something magical is happening. It wouldn't suprise me if it was Ben that told Lockes dad that he was in Hell to begin with. Maybe he first appeared to him with an evil goatie and a pitch fork. Lol.
3) Okay magic box theory (and not too far from Capcoms zombie theory or 2Costa's computer printout) - what if this "box" doesn't spawn out of it people/things but is whatever the cause of people being able to see events before they happen. For example Julliets ex being hit by a bus as well as Lockes Dad having his car crash. If we then go back to Desmonds premonition skills, and their apparent focus on fatalities perhaps that is all that had happened with the "box". Julliet was special because she had an untapped amount of this skill, hence making a comment on something that would come to pass (I wish he'd get hit by a bus). We've speculated before that Ben had this premonition skill and that it was part of what made him such a great manipulator. So maybe he just saw Lockes Dads crash and positioned himself to take advantage of it. The subconsious manipulation of oneself based on knowledge not conciously available to you, could perhaps be the answer to why the Lostaways all ended up on that plane with people they are deeply tied to but do not conciously know of. Perhaps they are all comming to the island for an event they have seen in their subconcious but are totally oblivious to. That theory of the "box" seems to throw off my other theory about Sayids cat and Kate's horse being from it, but I can live with have simultanious contradicting theories so that's okay :)
4) What happened to the area leading to the Black Rock being Smoke Monster central? My only theory on that, other then that the writters forgot they made such a big thing about that earlier, is that Smokey is acting much more purposefully these days. Not simply patrolling set areas but gathering info and maybe hunting outside of it's usual range.
5) I don't really think Jack is smokey but it was such an interesting theory I thought I'd drop it in there. It would certainly explain a lot and be kinda cool! However I think it's just more likely that Jack is very bad at "acting normal" and keeping secrets. Perhaps not as bad as Kate. You know, all things considered Jack and Kate are pretty well suited to each other. Lol.
It's funny how much some of the Losties are starting to earn our disrespect these days. I think Memphis' comment about Jack's lack of rocks says it all really!
6) Finally, if the Others did kidnap Lockes dad knowing he was someone from both Lock and Sawyers past it is possible that they have done the same from people from the past of other Losties. This could include Penny and explain the photo. Especially considering that Des is clearly in the "special" catagory the same as Locke. Given she was trying to find Des and is rich and powerful and stuff it could cause re-percussions of the others if they did kidnap her.
Lostit said: twinkle, I think Sawyer was angry at himself for giving in to his rage and being manipulated into killing a man - even if he deserved it. Sawyer didn't like who he had become.
I like the way you phrased that. I agree.
Memphish: Nice theory about some of the Others playing Ben. You can't manipulate people for too long before there's a rebellion. The thought that some of the Others brought Cooper to the island without Ben's knowledge is very compelling. Alpert could also have been sent to Locke by Ben in another attempt to manipulate him. I look forward to finding out which it is!
Fenris, Maybe Ben appeared to Locke like this. :)
Nice to see you, Fenris!
This is from J. Wood's Lost discussion with Jen and Liz at the Washington Post about next week. It's not spoilery.
Liz: J, should we watch next week's episode while listening to "Dark Side of the Moon?"
J. Wood: Man, wouldn't that be just like them to line an episode up with Pink Floyd?
Jen: How will we know when to cue up the Floyd? When the word "Lost" spirals across the screen? Seriously, if there is a Floyd connection, I will flip out. I'll have to drink that sedative they gave Juliet in order to calm down.
J. Wood: Maybe it'll be synced with the last Driveshaft record. Or Geronimo Jackson.
That would be really cool, wouldn't it? How long do you think it will take for the person who has been finding the backwards messages in the episodes to try it?
Locke = Cooper 2 posts ago. Sugar without enough coffee. A bad mix.
Wat are the backwards messages i wish i was a dedicated as some of u guy.
Locke is being played by the others i think alpert tellin him ben wanted to make him fail was part of the con( and alpert is gay) Will sawyer get killed off now he has resolved his issue or was it un resolved as the letter was ripped up?
I still dont trust naomi, she is a lyin liar, i think, i still think she is connected from the whole i am not alone comment. why would she say that to Patchy.
if i was on the island i would live in the Black rock it is cool. Looked awesome in this episode. That exchange between locke and russo was brilliant , two crazy people both lookin the other way. wonder wat shes gonna blow up
Morning all...hope everyone is having a great weekend!
After catching up on all your great comments (besides the book info, Spidey reviews and other tv shows we can get into this summer), here's my humble take on what's happening:
I think Ben is really worried that he's loosing his grip on his control of the Others. Since his tumor, his "people" are doubting his authority. I think he came from humble beginnings on the island and manipulated his way to the top. One way to maintain his control is diversion (per Alpert) and focus on the fertility issues...recruiting an expert (Juliet) and make his people think that he is actively doing something for their good.
Then, when Flight 815 crashed, he saw his chance to strengthen his control...knowing there would be more women on the plane to use in his fertility problem research. He was "lucky" that a spinal surgeon fell out of the sky, but not so lucky that Locke appeared and seemed to have the special connection to the island that Ben doesn't. The Others are breaking into factions (probably Mikhail, Juliet and Alpert working together). So he instigated this long con to get Locke convinced that he is a special person (missing throughout Locke's whole lifetime) and get him to work with the Others and with Ben. Knowing Locke's history (from info Mikhail got), he knew Cooper was the key and instigated the kidnapping (through Alpert {who also worked on Juliet}). They physically brought Cooper to the island and devised this "test" for Locke to pass in order for Locke to become part of the group (which he has been searching for his whole life) and learn the island's secrets.
Now, it's difficult at this stage in the story to see how everything fits together in the long run. What are Dharma's long range goals? Who possible staged the crash? Is the Desmond/Penny arc something separate from everything else or a "cog in the wheel" that wasn't foreseen by Ben and the Others? Why were all these particular Losties on Flight 815, and why are they on the island? These are just basic overall questions that I hope will be answered before the end of the story.
Hi All,
Do we have any LoCos in Kansas? I think we do maybe. Let's hope that everyone is alright!
Thanks for the Spidey info everyone, and very tactfully given without spoilers too!
Speaking of Juliet lying, one of the most commonly thought ways to tell if someone is lying is if their eyes blink exessively, and Juliet's are always blinking like a machine-gun! Granted, that's only for real life, and the actors may not even get enough info to know themselves whether or not they are lying to each other as they play their parts, but I just think that's funny how she does that so much.
Hey, don't hold me to that zombie theory! :o) It's just something that ran thru my brain while I was brainstorming with myself after the show. I don't really think that, it's too wacky, but......
What you said about our losing faith in our Losties is interesting Fenris. Just as if we were a part of a group thrown together, at first you think that everyone is so nice, and then once you start to get to know them and the situation brings out their idiosyncracies, you start picking out the ones you want to strangle, etc. :-)
I can really follow your thoughts on Ben Maven, I am thinking along the same lines. I think that it was probably extremely important that Ben's people see him alone as supernaturally special and intelligent, for them to follow him unquestioningly and never look for another leader. And like you said, when his health failed, and Locke came along, Ben had a huge problem on his hands to rectify, to maintain his control over the island.
Capcom
From Kansas, Town affected is 300 miles west of me. Just awful for Greensburg,75% of the town is just flattened. Thoughts and prayers for those affected
Thanks Martys, what they are showing on TV looks awful. People are saying that almost the entire downtown Main Street, schools, and other things are just plain gone. Glad that you're OK. Prayers going out, for sure.
Wow...watching the tornado destruction on the news now! Our thoughts are with everyone effected in Kansas. Thanks, Martys, for the update.
Memphis - Lol, yeah that was probably it (the Darth Ben).
Capcom - Good point. I guess it mostly goes to show that the writters are doing something right. Plus the fact that two of the most central characters are amongst the most flawed characters in the group. Okay Kate had an abusive dad and Jack had an alcoholic dad. But Christian didn't seem all that bad really, his one really bad mistake Jack made sure he was punished for (and seems he was an A*hole long before that) while we really don't get to see how bad Kates dad really was. The rest of the characters have strong drives to why they are like they are and don't seem to have turned out so bad all things considered.
Anyway, I was thinking about the potential links between the "magic box" and the valencetti equation. If the box is more about knowing what is going to happen and taking advantage of it and that a few people are sensitive to it conciously but most people are sub-conciously sensitive to it. I reckon that all ties in to the Valencetti thing as it's the one confirmed part of the story that seems to provide a show-science basis for potential precognitive ability. I.E. it's all probability and mathematices but translates as seeing actual events before they happen.
Thoughts and prayers to the people of Kansas.
Loved the ideas posted for this ep, especially Ben's and Sawyer's motivations. TBP ideas about Ben being Roger are intriguing. I like it.
I'm still thinking that the Others have found a way to manipulate time and events. Cooper might have been killed in a car accident. In a second run through, he is almost killed, then kidnapped by the Others. Cooper seemed, to me anyway, to be taunting Sawyer into killing him. Could it be that he is being paid to be killed, knowing that the Others can have a do-over and he'll be alive again? Just like Mikhail? This would explain a lot of coincidences.
Speaking of Mikhail, the only evidence we have that Flight 815 crashed and all were killed is Mikhail's and Naomi's word. We've seen nothing.
Oh, I'd love to do the book club! I've read a bunch of these books over the years but they're worth rereading and discussing with a LOST perspective.
I like your idea about the Equation, probability, etc., Fenris. It would be awesome if TPTB would pull that much from TLE into the show for those of us who spent our summer raking through those game details. It would also be funny/sad if the DI worked sooo hard on "the cure for the world" that could change the future, that they created this horrible Thing/Box that does "whatever" and that made them think, "Oops, I guess we shouldn't have tried to change the future after all!"
Barbara, I like what you said. I have a difficult time understanding why, in the position that Cooper was in, he was an even more enormous jerk in captivity, than he was free! At the very least, a good con man should know when he's in a bad way, and be able to sweet-talk-con his way out. It seemed like he was really asking for it! Go figure.
Barbarajay
If Cooper really believed that he was in hell perhaps he thought that he could torment Sawyer for an eternity. Maybe he thought he had nothing to lose as Sawyer couldn't kill him because he was already dead, or so he thought. Gosh i hope that makes sense.
I forgot to mention your comment about Rousseau and Locke, Blackrock, it made me laugh. Right, two people, up to no good by themselves, chosing to ignore what the other is doing, so they will ignore them. "Dee-dee-deeee, lovely day!", "Yep, see ya later." :o)
That makes sense Martysbaybay.
Hello
The man that died while Jack saved Sarahs life was that Shannons Father i recently watched seasons 1 & 2 and i think i remember that.
I ONLY MENTION IT BECAUSE I THINK SOMEONE SAID IT COULD HAVE BEEN COOPER WITH THE TIME PARRALELLES THAT WAS HIT BY sARAH.
aLSO IF JULIETTE IS A FERTILITY SPECIAALIST ETHAN DOCTOR AND PLUMBER UM TOM DOES SOMETHING BUT WHO IS THEIR HAIRDRESSER THE FLIGHT ATENDANT I FORGET HER NAME BUT SHE HAS SOME BRAND NEW FOILS
HAHA
JACK IS A LYIN LIAR
OK BYE BYE
Black_Rock, Cindy has been here.
nice one Memphish that made me laugh so much
Memphish
LOL...You crack me up
Quick question. In the episode "Left Behind" does any one feel that Sayid's time was kind of unaccounted for? We did not see for ourselves that he was handcuffed to the swingset all night, nor, did we see Juliet release him. Ben told John to go say good-bye to Kate. He says nothing about Sayid and John never says anything about seeing him.
yeah your right we have not been givin a clear explination of wat happened there, but if sayid had been walkin around i think he would have a story about wat he saw.
Right now Sayid and Hurly are the only people i trust!
Morning all! Just wanted to post this article that was in the LA Times today:
"'Lost' in the Moment"
The debate over the meaning, worth and legacy of "Lost" has raged since the show debuted. Three seasons in, we're still getting flashbacked personal bios while the secret of the island seems to be a fertility issue. Meanwhile, with only three episodes left in the season, many viewers are tapping their feet and making little snorting sounds: We want answers! And after three years, they'd better be good! Infused with myth and meaning!
But as "Lost" made clear from the moment that polar bear showed up, this was a show unlike any other, and so viewers must re-examine their expectations. "Lost" is all about surrender. You cannot fight the mighty ocean.
And it's not too late. The wonder of a show with no apparent linear thinking is that you can skip a whole season and jump right back in. Sure, you missed the entire life and death of Nikki and Paulo, but it doesn't matter. No one even mentions them. What matters is what's happening now, before your very eyes. Desmond was a monk, which explains why he says "brother," and a multilingual woman has fallen from the sky. Sun's baby is Jin's, which means Sun probably will die but see how happy she is. Locke and Jack, Jack and Sawyer, Sawyer and Kate, Kate and Juliet--the archetypal struggles of power and love are accounted for, Hurley is still funny, Ben is still creepy. Walt is still missing. These are your landmarks. The things you thought you knew, the details about the past you once believed mattered, let them go. Worry too much about what once was or will be and you will miss the essence of life as it passes.
This is the great lesson of "Lost" --live the moment, brother. Fight it and you will drown." (Mary McNamara)
Hi All!
Thanks for that LA Times post Memphish! She proposes the correct attitude to have about Lost, for sure. I hope that people aren't still complaining, are they? I just don't go to those complainy-pants blogs and forums anymore, so maybe I just don't hear it. Looking forward to the next ep!
BTW, I saw Spiderman today, and I thought that it was awesome! Of course, I cried, I'm such a dope. Even more thoughtful meanings in this one than the other two. Is Stan Lee responsible for that? He's a nice man, he was really sweet on that funny "Who Wants To Be A Superhero" show on SciFi. Anyway, it was great, and I will probably go back for more.
Oops! I meant, thanks Maven. :o>
BTW, someone listed our old friends from the TLEC days, it brought back memories. You can check out Dr. Spongebob's Lost page to say hi at:
http://theexperienceoflost.blogspot.com/
I'm going to see if I still have other TLECers pages saved still too.
Well, I said I would report back from the movie, so here it is.
I saw Spiderman last night. It was really good. I laughed. I almost cried. I squirmed in my seat at some points, had to look away at some other points (too intense), and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Go see it!
The CGI didn't spoil anything for me, it was very realistic. The Sandman's effects, as well as those for Venom, we SO dead on! Excellent sfx.
The story was, well, Spiderman angst to the nth degree. Hey, it IS a Spiderman story...what else would ya expect?
I now return you to your regular LOST blog...
hey, all.. just a quick hello before I hit the sack..
Glad to hear about Spiderman; we didn't go see it yet, but we did see #'s 1 & 2 on tv this weekend, so I'm ready...
maven, thanks for the Mary McNamara article. Not sure if I agree with her about Lost being "a show with no apparent linear thinking". Maybe she needs to come to TLC and get enlightened:) And I don't think it was fair putting in the N**** & P***** thing as an example of the whole show...
Hello again everyone. I have two things to say tonight.
1. Hi. My name is Andrew, and I'm a spoilerholic. Help! I'm going to rely on you guys to help me get through these last 3 episodes without looking at any more. I've already looked at way too many spoilers/rumors, and yell at myself everytime.
2. DocArzt over at The Tailsection is reporting a finally finalized schedule for the remaining seasons of LOST. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I'll just give you the link.
The Tailsection - Breaking News
thanks for the link, luckyguy...
He says "Besides, the point here is that the writers now have their canvas; from this day forward not a single line of script will be written for the purpose of putting off or slowing down the plot advancement." Wouldn't have any pesky N**** & P*****'s then... sounds good!
So it's a trilogy to finish it up (3 more years of 16 eps each from Feb to May). I agree with him it's like the Star Wars trilogy and waiting 4 years between each. It'll feel like 4 years! The trouble is, this is tv and I just hope it doesn't ever get cancelled!!!!!!!!!!!
I think we'll have time to read every book for our book club with 8 months off/4 on!
No spoilers for me either, LG... we're pretty safe here...
Hey Luckyguy,
I checked out the tailsection link. Hmmm, on one hand I tend to disbelieve the report. But anything is possible.
Whatever. I'm along for the ride.
Hang in there, be spoiler free! I'm also trying not to be spoiled for the last bit of S3, and it is so HARD! But if Handsome Jack (from the Jay and Jack podcast) can be spoiler free, so can we.
for everyone else, the link isn't anything spoilery for the story, just the setting of the end date of Lost.
Codysmom,
Wouldn't it be great if our public libraries got a real shot in the arm by all of us borrowing these books to read? With so many of us visiting the libraries, we might have to find the books through interlibrary loan, and...
Between that and the Netflix effect when we all rent "Donnie Darko", surely we won't go unnoticed!
Haha yeah amused, The Lost Community is truly a force to be reckoned with!
The Tailsection story is correct.
This news just in.
* “Lost” will run three more seasons after the one that concludes this month.
* Each of the final three seasons will only contain 16 episodes, instead of the 23 or 24 produced for the first three seasons.
* The 16-episode seasons will run without repeats.
See the full Variety story
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117964371.html?categoryid=14&cs=1&p=0
Stan Lee Rocks, i might be mistaken but isnt it Jason lee's (my name is earl)Father. Hmmmm heard that somwhere. i Wish they would keep makin lost for years like X files I dont know wat i will do once it ends, so sad, i would like to be a part of your book club but because im in Australia i find it hard to get on here at the same time as you guys. But i definately need something to keep me occupied, i guess i can just watch season 1 & 2 again ( like i havent already a thousand times. LOL. Ummmm i dont like that idea of the 16 episodes that means longer wait between seasons right? I also read on WWW.lost.com that there will be two more seasons i think i heard something to the same effect on OLP this week. Also can any one tell me who is joop, is the four toed statue Joop
So in other words they are doing the two further seasons they had planed to do and stethching it to three by only showing 2/3rds of the season in a year.
But hey, there won't be repeats. So does that mean we'll get 3 months of the year with lost and 9 months without for the next three years?
Bah. Plus I bet the season DVD's won't be any cheaper for them.
Fenris, such the cynic. :)
Black_rock, Joop is 106-year-old orangutan whose life has been unnaturally extended by the Hanso Foundation. He appeared in The Lost Experience and efforts to Free Joop were strongly spearheaded by our own Admin, all to no avail, I might add. Joop is also the ape butler of the castaways in Jules Verne's book The Mysterious Island.
Having read both The Mysterious Island last summer and Lord of the Flies this past week, it's funny but the first thing each set of literary castaways did was confirm they were on an island. Our LOSTies have never, ever done that. No one has walked the entire circumference, nor has anyone climed to the highest point to confirm it. Of course there's the pesky black smoke, but still. If 12-year-old boys can think of it, why can't our people?
As for the scheduling news, I have mixed feelings. I don't know that I've got 3 years of devotion to the bizarre-ness that LOST has become left in me. I love the detail analyzing aspect of the show, but to think that I'll be doing that until 2010--it kind of makes me want to get a life.
The best part of the news is that DL and CC have agreed to be there the whole way. I hope that's true for the actors as well. That's a pretty long committment for them too, but I guess they'll have about 6 months each year to "pursue other interests." Is that the correct industry term, Maven? :)
memphish, tHANKS SO MUCH FOR THE INFO. i AM SO GLAD TO HAVE FOUND THIS PLACE.
SAYID tried to go around the island and then he got russos map so i guess that would set there minds at ease but very good point.
Bein that this is the spot for info does anyone know or have theroies about the four toed statue i have some but stupid ones
Thanks any way. Also i would like to be in the book club.
P.S Is the statue homer simpson are the others a Homer simpson worshipping cult
Black_Rock, I think the 4-toed statue is Mickey Mouse since he's the boss. And that's my stupid theory for it. :)
There's lots of people who think it has something to do with Atlantis or Mu and back at the end of Season 2 I heard a great theory about it being trolls or gnomes. You can read all the LostPedia 4-toed statue theories by clicking here.
thankx memphish
Good Morning, LoCo's!
Take heart, memphish dear. I know it seems like three more years of this torture will be unbearable, but consider that we are more than halfway through the story, and Cuselof now can pace the reveals to span the three seasons. So the bizarro world of Lost will have all of its answers coming forth. I hope.
Time will fly. And life will still be had during the majority of the year.
I think they stretched it out to make a 6 season DVD set, it will mean more revenue for ABC. At least they aren't cutting it shorter than the 5 yrs originally planned!
Good Morning LoCos!
NEW POST!!!
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