This is your friendly neighborhood "courtesy post" meant to alleviate some of the lag loading the comments page. Make sure you read the the comments on the last thread to see all the latest thoughts and revelations brought on by last Wednesday's episode.
Thursday, April 05, 2007
LEFT BEHIND - SEASON 3, EPISODE 15 (POST 2)
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172 comments:
Happy Birthday Maven! Happy Good Friday to all!
Good Morning! Looks like I'm first!
Thanks for the new thread Admin.
I wanted to remind everyone there's a new Official Lost Podcast discussion Left Behind. You can get it at ABC.com or on iTunes. There's also new J. Wood and Vozzek on DarkUFO.
Or maybe not... I guess you have to wake up pretty early to get ahead of Admin!
Anyhow, for those of you who are forlorn for those long-ago days of The Lost Experience, there is another similar ARG-type experience going on right now in connection with the release of the new Nine Inch Nails album, Year Zero. If you liked TLE, are a fan of NiN, don't mind some profanity (OK, a lot) in your ARGs, and enjoy decomposing sound files with spectroscopic analysis, this could be just the thing for you.
Check out yearzero.nin.com and ninwiki.com to get started.
New thread... woo hoo!
I have a question and can't find the transcript for Left Behind. What does Locke say to Kate in the rec room -- he said something like he made a case for her but I didn't catch the rest of the conversation.
Also, I'm a little confused about who exactly was left behind: Juliet or Jack, or both.
Good morning all! ib4uc, Locke says something to the effect of "I tried to convince them you were a good person, but then they told me what you did". I'm sure Dennis will be along shortly with a transcript.
But the comment raises an issue. As far as we know, the "worst" thing that Kate did was kill her abusive stepdad. Granted, it was murder, but it had somewhat extenuating circumstances. And given that Locke brutally murdered Mikhail just a few days earlier by tossing him into the fence, I can't see him getting all high and mighty because Kate had done something similar.
So my question is....what did the Others tell Locke that Kate did? Heaven knows I don't want another Kate-back, but it makes me wonder if there might not be something else. Or the Others lied to him.
and I have the most ludicrous wv: mplhjwdz
i will get carpal tunnel trying to input it
I'm sure Dennis will post this before I do but here goes.
There's more coversation before this, but here's the part about making a case for her.
I want you to know I made a strong case for you. I told them that you were a good person reliable, smart, honest, and then they told me who you were and what you had done. Let's just say forgiveness isn't their strong suit. Good Luck.
Morning all! Thanks for the Birthday wishes! Guess what my son and daughter-in-law got me? THE HATCH figurine! It even lights up! Cool, huh?
FSYB: I agree that the Others (and now Locke) seem to have as many flaws as the Losties (and everyone else for that matter). Who are they do be so high and mighty and judgmental when they've killed and lied?
Good, bad, lists, not forgiving. I don't understand these people. I think J. Wood may be on to something though with this reference to "Hearts and Minds"
The key of Peter Davis's documentary is that hearts and minds can't be changed if the people looking for change refuse to recognize the others as fully human.
I don't think the Others recognize any of the Losties as fully human. They can rationalize their own misdeeds as mere foibles where as "those people" are barbarians. There's a lot of that in Saving Fish From Drowning too.
Maven, I envy your Hatch. It sounds like a great birthday present.
Maven,
Happy Birthday. Is it actually today?
I wrote down that JGZ350's birthday is on the 10th.
When is everyone else's birthday?
ib4uc
Oh and also I think they were left behind. When Kate asks where Jack is Locke tells her he has to stay behind too like her.
So I guess everyone one was left behind Kate, Jack, Juliet, and Sayid.
Happy Birthday Maven!
Cool present.
I would love to have a detailed diagram of the hatch. I always got so confused on what was where.
Thanks everyone. I thought what Locke said was "forgiveness is not MY strong suit".
I'd love to know what Kate did to the others for them to forgive her. I agree that they probably lied to Locke (like that's never happened before) to get him to turn on Kate.
Sayid's Girl, The new LOST magazine which I flipped through yesterday seemed to have a Swan Hatch diagram in it. Either Capcom or Scoutpost has the magazine already. Maybe they could let us know.
Dennis: Yes, today is the day!
ib4uc: Apparently, the Other do have a dossier on all the Losties. The Others do no consider Kate "good" and are unforgiving, but they "forgive" Locke for things he has done (like kill Patchy).
Are we absolutely sure Patchy is dead? I'm not. I know how do you fake foaming at the mouth and bleeding from the ears. But no one really checked him to see if he was dead. Kate just looked at him. Plus Patchy thanks Locke for pushing him into the fence, so maybe that made it ok.
If everyone hasn't seen the "Dad In a Box" song from Inside the Experience, it is too funny!
It is a spoof of the SNL's "A Special Box" video, which you should watch first.
Download the "Dad In A Box" MP3 here.
Inside the Experience will have a video soon.
DAD IN A BOX
You've hated your daddy... for a long long time (such a long time)
He stole your kidney, and then he broke your spine
(WOW) Well we're so impressed, now that you're standing upright
Gonna show you something that I know will blow your mind
A gift so special, it'll blow off your socks
Take a look inside -- it's your dad in a box
Not gonna get you a chair with wheels
'Cause ever since the plane crash your spine's been healed
Not gonna get you a spray for your hair
Unless you need to fight with a polar bear
Not gonna get you a game of chess,
You'll enter seven seven and you'll make a big mess
Wanna get you somethin' that we know you want
Somethin' really special
It's your dad in a box, your dad in a box, John
It's your dad in a box, your dad in a box, John
See I'm wise enough to know when the plot needs movin', and I got just the twist
somethin' to show ya that you're still at the top of our list
To all the Others out there with bald guys to impress
It's easy to do, just follow these steps
1: Find a really big box
2: Put his dad in that box
3: Make him open the box
And that's the way you do it
It's your dad in a box... your dad in a box, John
It's your dad in a box, your dad in a box, yeah
Plane crash; dad in a box
Shannon dies; dad in a box
Hatch explodes; your dad in a box
Every single episode your dad in a box
Over at the pearl station, dad in a box
Eyepatch dude in sonic fence, your dad in a box
Blowin' up the submarine, your dad in a box (yeah-wow-wow-wow-wow-wow)
Your dad in a box, your dad in a box, your dad in a box...
Patchy may not be dead if you believe CC from the OLP. Thanks for the song Dennis.
My birthday is Dec. 30 and I'll be 42--a number which I hadn't thought of, but am now excited about thanks to jgz350.
memphish
Cool. Looks like I'm going to have to go out and see if the magazine is available in my area yet. Thanks.
Memphish, I'll jot you down in the TLC birthday calendar :)
Sayid'sgirl said... Are we absolutely sure Patchy is dead? I'm not. I know how do you fake foaming at the mouth and bleeding from the ears. But no one really checked him to see if he was dead. Kate just looked at him. Plus Patchy thanks Locke for pushing him into the fence, so maybe that made it ok.
I was thinking the same thing. I said this yesterday:
I'm starting to think the fence was turned OFF when Sayid, John, and Kate went over it. I can't explain how Mikhail died - it would hard to fake blood spurting out of your ears.
If the fence was on, maybe the sonic waves just blew out his ear drums (I don't want to even think about that!), but it didn't kill him.
If he was killed, maybe they think that is his punishment for failing his mission. Wasn't he trying to kill himself anyway? So John killing him isn't "murder" in their eyes?
Dennis
Exactly!
Here's a crazy thought:
Fenris mentioned on the previous thread the cerberus vents and the hole that smokey tried to pull Locke down in to. Could it be that whoever dug the tunnels could have gone too deep and released smokey? Kind of like what the dwarves did in the Mines of Moria in Lord of the Rings (they dug too deep and released a demon of fire and darkness). And now smokey lives in those tunnels.
Told you it was crazy.
I like it ib4uc.
here's the problem with "just the eardrums bursting" theory, instead of death.
trust me, that's a pain you can't just "fake" dying with. you'd be in such pain, you'd be rolling on the ground, not sitting still.
so yeah. it killed him in my opinion. I just think that maybe smokey "hunts" by sound. think about it. smokey always LEAVES when people hide and shut the heck up. it functions like a bat. the FLASHES the other night was maybe it trying to cause the girls to move or make a sound.
just food for thought.
ib4uc
I like it too.
Chucklez3
That's an interesting thought on how Smokie hunts. But I'm still not sure if Patchy is dead.
well as for patchy, if he's not dead, he didn't "fake" anything. he probably passed out.
we never saw anyone check him did we??
Gang: I'm in the camp that Patchy is dead. I believe Kate did check him (although she didn't check his pulse). You're right, chucklez, bursting eardrums would create a lot of pain...I think he died.
Good to see you here, chucklez.
Happy Friday, everyone!
And happy birthday, Maven!
It's been a really rough week at work - I think I'm going to spend the rest of the afternoon sitting at my desk, catching up on podcasts, doc jensen and whatnot.
Okay, a co-worker just came by and asked if I'd have time for a quick meeting. Grrr.... podcasts will have to wait!
Melissa_Lossa, this link is for you and your meeting problem.
I am just so stuck on Smokey this week. So I have been thinking, Smokey hovers, chugs, has vents, seems to be flashing (IMHO taking pictures), chitters, growls, can pick things up and bash the crap out of them, and backs off when things get quiet. Also, may be part organic and have some sort of "sickness" and/or be a type of weapon run amok (Alvar Hanso's weapon developments per TLE). It can’t penetrate the sonic fence, but people can, and it has a variety of sounds. The Others know of it, but not what it is, and it seems to have sections.
Chucklez3 said…I just think that maybe smokey "hunts" by sound. think about it. smokey always LEAVES when people hide and shut the heck up.
SO, questions I am thinking about:
1. How do all of these things tie in with Eko seeing Yemi just before he was killed?
2. Is Smokey like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park…when you stop moving/be silent, you can be right under it and it won’t see you?
3. We have now had two back to back Smokey episodes, where is this going? It seems like the writers want us to be thinking about this.
Happy Birthday Maven…I sent you something on MS earlier;).
Okay, I'm back! With more work! Yea!
memphish - I love it! :)
On Patchy being dead or not... I'm leaning towards maybe he's not dead. He lingered in the sonic fence long enough to burst his ear drums (but I can't explain the foaming at the mouth) then fell forward to the ground. I think the fence was built to keep Smokey out but give people/animals the shock of their life but not enough to kill them.
But, on the other hand, he was asking Sayid to kill him before that so maybe he knew the fence could kill. He didn't put up much of a fight when Locke was helping him see if it really worked.
And, since no one checked to see if he was really dead, maybe he isn't (cueing in Twilight Zone music).
Good Afternoon Locos and a tremendous Good Friday to you,
Peace be with you all-
Hi there Maven, in case you didn't read the end of the last thread, Happy Birthday Maven! Yes, we are both Aires, I guess that's why I usually agree with what you post.
I'm with the Patchy is dead camp and also that Jules is a plant camp.
Just got in so I need to catch up with the comments, will be back later.
I've been thinking about Jacob/Him trying to figure who he is and I think I know -- it's just like in the movie Total Recall and that mutant guy has this other mutant attached to him that predicts the future and is the all-knowing leader of the mutants. Quatto, I think his name was.
Maybe Ben is a mutant of some sort, maybe an experiment gone bad, and Jacob is attached to him and only comes out when summoned. He is all-knowing and that's how the others know so much about the losties.
Really, I'm just kidding here, trying to make small talk because I'm bored at work.
Sayidsgirl, in this month's mag there is a centerfold of the blast door map, and a small blueprint-like diagram of the Swan that you can only get if you subscribe to the mag. I may do that anyway, but getting the nice Swan diagram would be nice also.
I meant to say that the image of the Swan blueprint in the ad is small, and that you get a larger one when you subscribe. Not that you get a small one when you get a sub. :-)
I agree that some mystery could surround Patchy's death. I guess unless the Others have as good of SFX makeup people as TPTB, he probably didn't fake it. BUT, if the A-Team could climb over the fence's active area, why couldn't Smokey fly over it? Unless its inability to do so was because of the sonic/microwave beam messing with its electronics or something. But it was able to seemingly go right up again the fence. Dunno.
I think Patchy's dead because it took some amount of time to pick out and cut down a tree and there's no way everyone else shimmied as fast as Kate. That gave Patchy plenty of time to regain consciousness if he was merely unconscious. The only reason I think he might not be dead is CC's comments, but I don't understand them.
I think Patchy is dead, but I don't think that the fence would necessarily kill everyone. I think if you passed though it fast, you could make it. Patchy didn't seem to make any effort to get out of the direct path.
And I agree with the folks who said that Smokey can't get high enough off the ground to go over it. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. That also means that whomever built the fence knew how high Smokey could go. Unless the fence was for another purpose, and just happened to be the right height.
But what if he was faking Memphish? Then he could have laid there indefinitely. I don't really have a belief one way or the other, I'm just sayin'.
I'm just going to go with him being dead, until we see him pop up in New Otherton with Bea who was wearing a bullet proof vest. :o)
True Capcom, but I think the ever watchful Sayid would have noticed the breathing.
But didn't Smokey go pretty high when the big black fist lifted Eko up off the ground before the final whomp on the ground?
Also, maybe this "the others are different or have powers" kind of hinting that has been put out by TPTB means that some of the Others have some kind of regenerative powers. Some of them have it, Ben doesn't, Locke does, and Ben wants it. Again, I don't really think this, I'm just putting it out.
Capcom's latest post made me think of the following scenario. When we finally see Ben and Locke again, each will be strapped to a table and covered in wires that will transfer Locke's ability to walk to Ben. Locke will shout "Noooo." Ben will laugh maniacally.
Yeah, it's hard to judge how high Smokey goes in different scenes (in relation to each other).
Maybe this si just one of those things were not supposed to think about too much. ;)
I hope we see more of Patchy during flashbacks. He was too interesting a character to just dispose of so easily.
I think he's dead. and Bea too. And Nikki and Paulo. Not so sure about Jack's dad.
My bday is Dec 29! Hey Memphish! I am glad to share my birthday week with you.
Have a wonderful weekend everyone, not sure if I'll be back before Monday, but you never know...
Maybe Smokey doesn't know enough to go over it. It fixates on the person it wants to "whomp", ie Juliet and Kate, and aims straight for them. It hits the force field and is bounced off and backs off. Or what about this....what if something about the force field keeps Smokey from "seeing" people? Smokey is going great guns toward them, hits the wall, bounces off, then can't sense them when they're on the other side anymore so he goes away. Sort of like the mysterious bamboo hiding place.
And could someone remind me why we think the wall is sonic?
And finally, Happy Birthday Maven!!!
Maybe it's like a little kid - it whacked its head on the fence, and now its off to pout in the jungle for awhile. :)
memphish said..."When we finally see Ben and Locke again, each will be strapped to a table and covered in wires that will transfer Locke's ability to walk to Ben. Locke will shout "Noooo." Ben will laugh maniacally."
But in the transfer process, Locke will get the Ben Hair gene. Next episode Locke has spikey hair like Pee-Wee Herman..... LOL
"I know I am, but what are You!"
I know some people here have read Stephen King's Dark Tower series - this talk of Ben and Locke being hooked together is reminding me of the end of Song of Susannah, when Susannah and Mia give birth to the chap. Yikes!
I know that the creators are big King fans - maybe there's something to this idea? Crazy, I know! :)
Well, it's time for this girl to go home! Have a good Easter weekend everyone!
Travel safely, if you're on the road. :)
HAHA! LOL about Locke and Ben strapped together! "Which brain jar did you take?"...."The one that said Abby-Normal."! You guys are great! :-D
Yeah, I think that Bea and Patchy are dead but I sure would like to see more of them, especially McPatchy, he was an awesome character. Too bad for him, 20 years from now he will still have to go to Lost conventions just for a mini-part that he played in Season3 of Lost, because he played his part so well and we like him so much. :o)
i think it would also help if we didn't really think of smokey as something with eyes.
if it "hunts" by sound, then of course it doesn't "SEE" them.
Thanks to you all for birthday wishes! What a great community we have here. (Yes, Ange, I saw your birthday candles!)
Hope everyone has a nice Easter weekend (if you so celebrate), otherwise just a great weekend!
I think tptb once said somewhere that when someone's dead on the show they stay dead. Hopefully, that applies to N & P! But I believe Patchy is really dead. Even though we saw no one check his pulse, Sayid would have been astute enough to see if he was still breathing. If definitely looked like a horrible death.
As far as Smokey goes...I'm still so confused about what it is. I'm open to any theory. It's sure nothing we see in the real world!
memphish
Maybe the OLP is meaning Patchy will be in a flashback.
Maybe he is dead, but I'm not 100% sure he is.
Yeah Sayid's Girl. The whole thing with CC and Patchy has been strange to me. Maybe he was just trying to encourage Doc Jensen's body shifting theory.
I have a new idea though about the scene with Locke and Kate. Locke says that they told him what Kate did and said that they aren't forgiving. What if being on the List has to do with how you treated your dad. Kate blew hers up -- off the list. Jack ratted his out -- off the list. Sun disgraced hers by having the affair with Jae -- off the list. Jin denied his in order to marry Sun -- off the list. Claire said I don't even want to know your name -- off the list. In contrast Locke tries repeatedly to love and help his only to be screwed -- on the list. The rest, I don't know. Anyway it was just an idea I had about how to tie daddy issues into what the Others are up to with their selection process.
Lost And Found is back!
sort of...
Since AMEX is no longer doing the Lost and Found thing anymore, I've made my own Lost and Found on Picasa.
No video, just a dozen or so interesting screenshots from the episode plus comments. Please leave your own comments too.
HAPPY GOOD FRIDAY!
Good job Dennis. I even noticed that there were MasterCard ads on the ABC website now. When they make a break, they make a break.
One more idea about the episode. I think I understand better now the con on Kate whether it was orchestrated by Juliet or by Ben. The idea was to have an opportunity to break Kate of the notion that she has a deeper connection with Jack. I don't know if it's because they ultimately want Jack on their side, or if it's just to splinter the Losties into as many factions as possible, but it's definitely designed to further drive a wedge between Jack and Kate, this time from Kate's side. Kate and Jack not communicating makes for a weaker group of Fusies as we saw in the middle of Season 2.
It's similar to what Sawyer did in The Long Con suggesting to Kate that there was more between Jack and Ana Lucia than there really was in order to further his agenda.
As I say, I don't know if it's Juliet or Ben's idea but they've definitely found a second spot where Kate is emotionally invested and exploited it. Poor Kate has been dancing to the Others manipulations all season.
happy birthday, maven. may you have many more to come :).
awesome episode night before last, as have been most of the episodes since the return from hiatus... been fun reading everyone's thoughts on it all..... believe it or not, I read a lot of what's posted on here. With my current position, I just don't have time at work anymore to engage in much discussion on the topics. I really need to get my priorities straight... miss you guys...
OT, but if any of you are bored and wanna burn some brain cells, this is up most of your alley...
Happy good friday to all.
-belly
anyone in new jersey wanna go to a movie or somethin?? so freakin bored. hahaha
Go see Grindhouse chucklez, I hear the Rodriguez feature is fantastic!
that movie(s) looks retarded.
Tarrantino has really lost his touch. Rodriguez too.
What happened to From Dusk til Dawn and True Romance and Reservoir Dogs.......etc?
Sin City sucked big-time. Everything was way too gratuitous. The best thing about the movie was the cinematography.
eh.
if anything, i'd rather see 300 or TMNT or Shooter.
but i hate going to movies alone. same for dinner.
Hey Everyone- As usual, I love catching up on what you have to say.
Two thoughts to add. Smokey...maybe like Frankenstein...created as a neutral body and changes in behavior based on the observations and "lessons" of those around him??? Just a thought.
Re: Jack.... maybe no one is a "plant", at least not willingly.... Ben has manipulated both he and Juliette. Banished Juliette- or so she thinks. Then, perhaps, went to Jack and threatened to harm Kate (and/or Juliette) , unless Jack took Juliette back to camp, etc.... that would fit with Jack "the protector" and not really make him a sell out for selfish reasons. (OK, romantic in me, not wanting to give up).
Forgive me for not mentioning you by name, but I do love the ideas that Juliette will tell Jack and Claire that they are siblings, and that Kate may have been in Austraila to find Sawyer for Cassidy...and that Cassidy is the one who tipped Kate off to where the toy plane was....you guys make the best connections!
Happy Belated Birthdays, and Happy Early Easter.
Chucklez, it sounds like you need to have an old school Tarrantino marathon. Also, FTR, I kinda liked Kill Bill *ducks and covers*... I wouldn't even go see Sin City because I was just plain scared of what they would do to Frank Miller. Un-bored yet?
Dennis- Great pics, you are very busy!
memphish- I love your thoughts on the daddy-o list. How about Hurley, his dad left him, where would he stand?
problem with the "frankenstein" idea. if smokey is intelligent enough to learn, perhaps it would know how to go OVER the fence by now. eh. not trying to shoot it down, but it seems that maybe we're giving it too much intelligence.
besides, i still don't like the scene when it killed eko. that was sooooo cartoon-ish.
nice thought about the cassidy-kate-sawyer connection, btw!
yeah, in sin city, they simply tried to see how much "gore" they could get away with in an "artistic fashion". i don't remember the last time i saw men separated from their "members and jewels" in so many ways.
and they really ruined the story with some of the ridiculous gore stuff.
kill bill woulda been better as maybe 3 different types of movies. Tarrantino seemed like he couldn't decide what KIND of movie to do.
and again........i know he likes the old-skool kung-fu flicks, but come on. the wire crap and the excessive, cheesy-looking blood again took away from what was a good premise and story.
Hi Chucklez-
I'm not assuming that it is "intelligent" in and of itself- only imitating/mirroring through observation. Maybe a bad parrallel in order to say that it "feeds" on what it sees. No worries about appearing to try to shoot it down... I've been reading here long enough to only see 1-2 disagreements get cranky! ;-) I can take the feedback!
Memphish--- like your dad based list....but I'm not so sure that Jack did the wrong thing by his dad by ratting him out.... Christian even seemed to indicate to Sawyer that Jack did the right thing by him.... then again, that conflict might tie in nicely with your theory, b/c we're not sure Christian is dead....maybe Jack is still "list" material ;-)
Hmmm...now had smokey seen kate, lock and sayid go over, maybe he'd be in business ;-)
cool lisa. last thing i want right now is to alienate myself more.
haha
Ange, I think Hurley would be like Locke. Daddy did him wrong, not the other way around.
One of my biggest problems in trying to understand the Others is how many people they took from the Tailies and the fact that they've "taken" none from the Fusies. It's hard to believe over 1/2 the Tailies were "good" but no one in the Fusie section was. Although my friend who's a flight attendant might agree with that conclusion.
One other idea about the daddies. As a parent, it seems pretty cold-hearted and somewhat unrealistic for dads (or the representative of dads) to condemn their children no matter how heinous their actions might have been, but I guess Kate's Mom's reaction could be meant to teach us differently. Maybe that answers your question Lisa. It was only when Christian was on a 4 day bender that he conceded Jack was right. It also seems like there's been plenty of opportunity to add Jack to the list if he was to be re-judged list worthy, but they've still passed on him, unless this bring Juliet thing back is his test.
memphish said...One of my biggest problems in trying to understand the Others is how many people they took from the Tailies
ROFL, that is a great "biggest problem"! I have decided to try and stop understanding the others. It makes me nuts, and just when I think I know what they are up to something changes. Probably why I always focus on the stuff that is tangible that I can pick apart. Although, you think that maybe where people were sitting on the plane was planned in some way? GAH, that just gets into the whole other thing about the reason for the crash, etc.
Lisa- are you thinking Smokey is sentient in some way?
ROFL chucklez, I like your review style. Also agreed on Kill Bill as far as it being 3 types in one, but I still liked it, wires and headless blood squinting necks and all.
Chuck, I want to see TMNT!!!! Too bad I'm not in Jersey. Love those "heroes in a half shell"!
I also agree, if I may go OT also, about some Tarantino films. Barring the fact that he's nutso, I did like the Kill Bills, although it really had to grow on me. At first I hated it because it was all borrowed pieces from other movies/TV, and the massacre in Charlie Brown's place was hysterically goofy! ((blood squirting necks indeed Ange!)) But then it kinda grew on me. And then when I saw the Bride punch her way out of the coffin, I knew that I had found my inspiration for getting out of IBM! :o) Of course, the fight in the snow was awesome. And, I also liked the final 'five point palm exploding heart technique' and Bill walking off into the sunset to die in...his back yard! :-D
OK, back on topic, I also think it's weird for Kate's mother to turn her in like that. But, some women are strange and put their deadbeat boyfriends before their children just because they are afraid to 'be alone'. Ick.
Continues to be interesting as you develop it Memphish.... I was trying to work out some thoughts on motivation in actions towards the fathers..ex. We hear Kate give two reasons for blowing up Wayne 1."because he was part of me and I could never be good" and 2.to protect her mother" but now, you are right, her mother judges her harshly and says she did it for herself.
Each father betrayl can be seen in a couple of lights / motivations.... .ex. "noble/good of all" reasons like ; for love (sun/Jin), to avenge his parents/seek justice, albeit lawlessly (sawyer), belonging/identity (Locke), for the good/protection of others (jack- of future patients/kate-for her mom) etc...vs. the "ugly" reasons that might have really been at the core ex. for status (jin) and rebellion (Sun), protection of his own career (Jack).... and so on
Beyond that, I can't get anything phrased like I'd like to....so I'll just toss that out there unfinished ;-)... despite my ramblings, that hopefully haven't detracted from it, I just really like your original idea!
FYSB said "But the comment raises an issue. As far as we know, the "worst" thing that Kate did was kill her abusive stepdad. Granted, it was murder, but it had somewhat extenuating circumstances. And given that Locke brutally murdered Mikhail just a few days earlier by tossing him into the fence, I can't see him getting all high and mighty because Kate had done something similar."
That was largely what I was trying to get at with my comments in the last thread. I wonder if Kates dad was a much more important person then he first seems. Not just a drunken wife beating hick that Kate seems to know him as. The way Locke talked about it it sounds like he may have been an Other.
Smoke - I think the smoke monster has a base that is rooted to the ground, but it can raise itself up from it like a snake. I don't think it could manuever this well enough to go over the fence.
Also, Sin City was great and IMHO well worth seeing and Kill Bill should have been done as one movie not two. Tarintino got carried away with his own hype on that one. I am looking forward to Grindhouse.
Ange-
Smokey= Not so much sentiment, just "Tabula Rosa" when created- it can only operate in the parameters of what it has observed or gleened from others by observation or whatever weird snapshot photoshoot thing it is doing! Which, I can sort of envision, is why we see so many different versions of it, its always changing/learning/observing.
Just an idea- I don't pretend it "fits" with any of the other more developed, probably more on target, scientific or literary based things that being said! I just recently heard a commentary on Mary Shelley and thought there were some interesting ideas that might apply.
Oh yes also is that Nin album the one with Saul Williams on? Because I heard they were working together so am looking forward to that.
fenris said...I am looking forward to Grindhouse.
Yeah, me too!
Correct me if i am wrong , but Kate didn't kill her dad, she killed her step dad. Kate's dad was a military man. She went to see him once.
capcom: yeah. i need to get out. i've worked 14 straight days now cuz i volunteer. i have NO life right now.
boo.
haha
Thanks!........Boy did i get that one backwards
Hey, Jess...good to see you here. Thanks for the birthday wishes (today's the day...whatever's left of it!)
Yeah, it was Kate's stepdad that she blew up. It must have been so hurtful that Diane chose that bum over her daughter. Similarly, Kate seems pretty hurt when Jack starts to walk off with Juliette and he insists that she come with them...another rejection.
Wow, can't believe Belly posted here today, too. Old home week!
jess: don't get me started.
;)
well guess i will go now. guess it's bedtime.
ugh......feel like such a "loser".
hahaha.
later everyone.
Chucklez, don't ever mistake temporarily not having a social life, with not having a life. If you are living, breathing, walking, seeing, and still able to feed and "wipe" yourself, you are in better shape then lots of people on the planet. Sometimes we work a lot, and sometimes we don't and can have some fun. Reminds me of a saying I heard once when I was way down..."Sometimes we're the pigeon and sometimes we're the statue". :o) Everything will even out in the end if you stay focused and positive. Hang in there and appreciate life, and don't get scared by the valleys that come in between the hilltops.
And have a nice Easter and continuing Passover (I think, right?) everyone who partakes.
I am still in the process of catching up, but was wondering if anyone had brought this up yet.
In the last thread it was talked about as to why the others put on the gas masks before leaving since they didn't go inside. Am I wrong to assume that Kate and Juliet didn't sleep walk into the jungle and handcuff themselves together. That is what I was thinking anyway.
Sonot much more to add to the last post except
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MAVEN AND JGZ350
p.s. Mine is in September (3rd) will be 34 this time around... lol ... Is that the slope downhill I see.
Hoocha Hoocha Hoocha... Lobster
C-ya and Namaste
Morning LoCos!
A couple of things in response to last nights posts.
First, Wayne, not Sam Austen is Kate's biological dad as well as her mother's second husband. In WKD, Kate says to Sam:
I was making a scrapbook... a surprise for your birthday. So I called one of your COs to get some pictures of you in uniform. The pictures that he sent me had dates on the back... photos of you in Korea up until 4 months before I was born. Why didn't you tell me that Wayne was my father? Why?
Sam replies: I didn't tell you because I knew you'd kill him. And your mother loved him. and then tells her he didn't kill Wayne Because I don't have murder in my heart.
This leads me to conclude there has to be more to the Kate and Wayne story. Kate's comment in the tape she and Tom made as kids about wanting to run away when she was 11 does too.
I like Fenris' idea that Wayne is more than an abusive drunk. I have to admit the idea of the Father's running the List is somewhat stolen from Heroes and a certain FB we got there on a roof. I won't say more to prevent spoilerage of Heroes (which I haven't missed in the least tho. I'll be watching 4/23.)
More in another post. This one is already too long. And now longer. LOL.
Morning post #2.
#2. Dedjezter said, In the last thread it was talked about as to why the others put on the gas masks before leaving since they didn't go inside. Am I wrong to assume that Kate and Juliet didn't sleep walk into the jungle and handcuff themselves together. That is what I was thinking anyway.
Ded, you mean the Others with the gas masks who we saw running away as the smoke bomb was tossed in the rec room later came back and put Kate and Juliet in the jungle? Could be. It still doesn't answer the question as to why they would be handcuffed together and Juliet would have the key and Juliet was playing possum.
I guess Kate and Juliet (who I don't think was really gassed) woke up that much earlier than Jack because they were removed from the gas area quicker and put in fresh air whereas there were 2 gas canisters in Jack's little house. He sure does make a mess when he's gassed.
I hope Sayid gives us a little exposition about what he saw on the playground. Does this also mean that Juliet had a 2nd pair of handcuff keys to unlock Sayid?
I'm borrowing this from Boz in the DarkUFO Forums about Juliet and her purpose in getting back to Losties Beach.
Juliet is infiltrating the beach camp for a specific purpose. I suggest that she is trying to find a mole or saboteur. . . . Ever since I began questioning Locke's rampant destruction and then Rousseau's history and motives, I've become convinced there's a saboteur trying to thwart whatever it is the [O]thers are trying to accomplish. In this scenario, Juliet remains neutral toward the castaways, but is seeking out an agent "hostile" to the others' agenda.
I like this idea. Egotistical me wants to think its all about our beloved Fusies, but in this scenario it has nothing to do with them, it has to do with protecting the Others mission -- whatever that is. What is their mission?
I have to ask the question "Why wouldn't Kate trust Jules?"
After all, she actually saw Juliet kill Pickett to let her escape with Sawyer. Granted, this had to be accomplished to "save" Ben's life, but still... to kill one of your own to let them go? Juliet could have done any number of things to stop Pickett (as we now know from seeing her Kung Fu skills), including telling him to knock it off or Ben dies. She doesn't hesitate, just shoots. If I were Kate, I'd take that into account when deciding to trust Juliet or not.
As for Sawyer, I don't think he'd trust anybody, so I don't think it would matter to him if Juliet shot Pickett or not.
Carissa, while Juliet shooting Pickett did help Kate and Sawyer I think that makes her even less trustworthy. If she'll shoot one of her own to accomplish her own ends, what would she do to Kate? As for the rest of Kate and Sawyer's knowledge of her, she's taserd Sawyer, held a gun on Kate and used Kate and Sawyer to manipulate Jack by threatening Sawyer's life.
As for stopping Pickett in a less lethal way, she'd tried that back at the location of Room 23. Pickett didn't believe her. He says: I know Ben would rather die than let them go! That's why it was necessary to blast him. Plus I'm betting he has kung fu skills too.
What I can't understand is why Jack would trust her. As I read somewhere else, I hope Jack's just employing the "keep your enemies closer" policy. I also guess she must have made some "I'll never leave you promise" to him given what he says to Kate when he wakes up.
Memphish
As always you are right on. Don't know how i got the whole relationship between Kate, Sam, and Wayne so backwards.
Like your thoughts on Juliet. I don't think she wants to sabotage the "losties". I think she is looking for something or someone.
Good points, Memphish.
The only thing is that Kate and Sawyer wouldn't know about the Room 23 scene between Juliet and Pickett. From there points of view, Juliet just appears and shoots.
You make a good point, though, that that doesn't really make her trustworthy, since she would so whatever for her own ends. Juliet still scares me and that's why I think she's a plant. (Though I also have to ask what I'd become like after 3 years of living with the Others. I feel sorry for her having been recruited by them. They've turned her into something I bet she never wanted to be).
I also don't understand why Jack would trsut her. I think he has a little bit a guilt complex, more than a trsut issue. He feels like it's his fault Juliet got in trouble and "marked" since he said that she told him to kill Ben. He's acting stupid out of guilt, which we've seen before in him.
If she's a plant, Jack's in for another round of betrayal when he thought he was helping someone he hurt. Think how he'll feel when Juliet says, "Oh, all those feelings you thought you had were bogus. I'm marked and in the inner-inner circle now. Ha ha ha!"
martysbaybay, It's a sickness as my husband would testify. And of course, it being LOST, it's supposed to be complicated. If you want straightforward, watch "According to Jim." :o)
Carissa, great points about Jack acting out of guilt. You're right. He thinks he's messed things up for Juliet and he needs to "fix" them. Yeah, I think he's screwed again too. Here's the scene I want for the finally, all the evil Others sitting around a table doing their evil laugh just like in Austen Powers.
LOL! That would be a great scene!
Need more coffee. I meant Finale not finally.
Everybody was Kung Fu fighting (chop)... Just adding my two cents this sunny, but cold, Saturday.
I think Juliet is torn between the Others and the Losties. On one hand, she's committed the last 3+ years of her life to the Others and will always be on their side. On the other, maybe her conscious is getting the better of her and is causing her to help the Losties because she wants to go home so badly (maybe that was all an act also).
I just wish I knew what side of the coin she was on.
I have a strong feeling that Juliet is indeed a plant, and that her task is to get access both to Arron, and Sun's, as yet unborn child. It would make perfect sense that Ben would send Juliet, a fertility doctor, as they'd previously sent Ethan (also a doctor). I can't believe The Others have given up on getting Arron yet. It's been awhile since Lost has touched on this babynapping storyline, but I doubt it's been forgotten.
But ib4uc, how does helping the Losties help her get home?
Tall Guy, I agree it may have something to do with Aaron. Maybe that's also why we got the incredibly awkward less wrinkly scene last week. It helps set Sawyer up as a protector of Aaron and he owes Sun as well.
memphish... maybe Juliet feels that if she helps the Losties, they can overtake the Others and somehow get home. Maybe take the boat or the sub, if it still exists. But considering her prior actions, she's probably helping Ben. That's what I'm leaning towards.
tall guy... makes sense that Juliet is a plant -- too much of a coincidence that Sun is pregnant and look, Juliet, the fertility doctor, is handcuffed to Kate, left behind by the Others, and Jack, being one to "save" everyone, is taking her back to the beach. Oooooh, can't wait til Sayid gets a hold of her.
Sayid's flashback makes more sense now too leading into next week. Does Sayid torture women or not. I hope so.
I don't think Sayid is prejudice when it comes to who he tortures. If they're the enemy, then he tortures. Maybe make an example of Juliet.
But, then again, wouldn't the Others know what Sayid is capable of? Why risk Juliet -- is she willing to die for Ben? They'll probably stop at nothing to get their hands on the babies.
Just throwing random thoughts out there.
If I haven't said it before, I hate this not-so-new-anymore blogger.
When I logged on and saw 108 comments, I thought "who's the lucky one!" Yeah, Sara!
A lot of interesting discussion re Juliette's motives. I like the idea that Tall Guy posed that Juliette is a plant and it has something to do with Aaron and Sun's baby (since she's a fertility doctor). But I'm also getting vibes that Juliette is beginning to feel torn about her "mission". Either she's very good at what Ben planned for her to do, or she really is beginning to have feelings for Jack. Is she really a committed Other or is one of those who have bought the illusion that she can go home?
i thought the reason they showed sawyer holding aaron was to tie into the fact that we know sawyer has a child.
ben has been trying to get locke for a while. maybe since they have him they dont need jules.
also do we have any idea of what they had kate breaking rocks for.
Bigdog
Hey your right. We still don't know what they were clearing that area for on Falsecatraz? I'd forgotton about that. I thought it might be a runway. We'll have to file it under Small Unknown Mysteries, like what does the Dharma drug do and why did The Others take those blood samples when they captured Jack and co? So many mysteries on this show.
tall guy... that's what makes this a great show. Keeps us coming back for more! Also, it's this show that has brought us all together into one, big, happy Lost family.
Maybe they were busting up the rocks just because -- you're not good so we're going to make you do worthless hard labor. Maybe trying to break Kate and Sawyer down.
Sorry if someone posted this before, but if Juliet wasn't a plant, why would she not tell Kate she had the key to the handcuffs?
As much as I would like Juliet to side with the losties and turn on the others, I don't think that is going to happen.
wv: mexthuco (someone who had a little too much to drink saying Mexico?)
ib4uc, I think Juliet's con on Kate which I believe we can all agree was a con because of the keys no matter who orchestrated it gave Juliet an opportunity to exploit Kate's emotional investment in Jack. It gave her the opportunity to have their little "don't go back for Jack" "you broke his heart" "I know about him; you don't" talks and drive a wedge between Kate and Jack from the Kate side of the relationship. How this helps her exactly I don't know, but I think that's what was going on.
Hey all! Happy Easter weekend/Passover season!
I don't know if Juliet is a plant or not. A lot doesn't make sense, like how they got into the middle of the woods and why she didn't tell Kate about the key, etc. Originally I agreed she must be a plant, then, wasn't it Doc Jensen or someone who interviewed TPTB's who said something like she wasn't a plant. eh well, I'll have to look that one up. My other thought is that maybe Juliet was turthfully left behind, and is telling the truth because: a) if she were a plant and had to lie, Ben knows Juliet would have to go up against Sayid who would be able to get the truth out of her, b) if Juliet really believes she has been betrayed, then maybe she will be more apt to get close to the Losties and Aaron and Sun's baby....all this to say, that maybe Ben is still manipulating the situation and Juliet (unwittingly), knowing that he can get what he wants from the Losties- be it info, babies, moles, whatever- by letting Juliet unknowingly flush these things out.
I noticed no one brought this up yet, and DarkUFO doesn't have a screencap of it, so I thought I'd mention it.
In the ABC website version of this episode, at 8:28, you can clearly see the Other's who are running away with the luggage and the gas masks are also carrying guns.
I know some people originally thought that they put on the masks to protect themselves for the gas they used to knock Kate and supposedly Jack with, but from the first time I saw this scene I assumed they were headed somewhere that they'd need masks for. This gives more evidence to that idea.
And Dennis, my birthday is July 27th!
Luckyguylikeme, When I first saw them put on the masks I thought they'd need them where they were going too, but then the gas canister immediately followed. Though again, why they'd need gas masks to toss and run I don't get. The weapons detail was followed up when Sayid told us later that the people and weapons were all gone. Guess they've learned not to let the Losties have guns. You can teach Others new tricks.
I also noticed that when Juliette was telling Kate all the things she knew about Jack, she mentions "I know how his father died..." The way she says this, seems to me as if she never knew him and that it is true... that his father is dead. IMO, Christian is for a matter of fact dead, and is not Jacob/HIM. I wouldn't mind being corrected though ;)
LGLM, I agree about Christian, but I've never been a big Christian is alive person. She tells Jack way back in 3.1 that she has Christian's autopsy report as well. Of course, she is a good liar. I believed she'd never seen Smokey until she turned on the fence.
I never understood the whole "Christian is not dead" camp. We saw his cold, dead body lying in a morgue. Jack IDed it as his dad. Didn't they also mention the level of alcohol in his blood at the time of death, meaning they had done at least a cursory autopsy? He's dead. Very dead.
jezter: my b-day is august 27th. i will also be 34 this time around. weird. you're like my doppleganger. hahaha.
re: the gas masks- maybe there really is some sort of "sickness" somewhere on the island and that is where they were headed. Granted they didn't have to whole hazmat suit and gear, but when I first saw the masks, that is what I immediately thought of.
oh- and Dennis, my birthday is Feb. 8th. I will be the big 4-0 next time around. ah a new decade.
umm...i thought the gas masks were being worn while they were tossing knock-out gas around the huts all willie-nillie.
that would explain the LACK of gear and simply JUST the masks.
Hey chuckle!
we were discussing the masks becuz we thought that everyone donning a gas mask on their way out of Otherville while only a few threw cannisters into a few enclosed barracks was a little excessive. So we thought perhaps there was another reason for the masks. You know us, we have to find something suspicious in the ordinary.
i'm thinking that (maybe) the knockout gas is just that potent. and could simply be precautionary. however, we never know. maybe they're goin to go "rough-house" with smokey and don't want to inhale any of his (its) "mass". haha. yeah, i would stick with the simpler theory.
but like you said, could be something else. maybe they're planning on "attacking" the losties' camp and need to keep them on, cuz they'll be in the open air.
i kinda' theorized that they were going to the losties' camp after the show.
I also theorized they were going to another island (quarantined island perhaps). i've been toying with the notion of a 3rd island since the dad-blame mittelos site came and went.
hmmm.....dunno.
Seems to me the Losties camp is a fair way from Eviltown. Surely they wouldn't trek there with their gasmasks on if they were planning to attack.
As for the gas masks, well it could just be that they were heading somewhere that they would need the oxygen. Doesn't mean it relates to the use of gas at all. They may be for instance heading into some deep tunnels with little air in.
As for the Christian autopsy. Well it wouldn't be hard to bribe a doctor to claim he'd done that and that spider venom was meant to be capable of fooling doctors. So there is nothing conclusive there. Probably more conclusive would be that Julliet said Jacks dad was dead and she knew how. Although whether she just got that from the file or knew for herself it was a fact I don't know.
My initial reaction to that was "she didn't say how he died"....
Okay for this plant thing, do I need to list all the dodgy things the Losties themselves have done to each other? They did things because they were scared or they wanted something, doesn't make them Others. So Julliet manipulated the situation for her benifit. That really DOESN'T make her a plant and more then Jack is now a bonified Other for making that deal to stay with Ben or that Charlie is an Other for fake-kidnapping Sun or the spider-twins are Others for not telling anyone about the things they found out or Sayid and his increasingly easy going attitude to torturing people. Not to mention Micheal and Lockes little escapades!
One thing we have learned from Lost is you can't make assumptions about peoples alliegence based on the things they are driven to do. We can't assume Julliet is a plant because she did something dishonest, at least not while that act has apparent direct benifits to her, rather then just the Others.
Wow, I'm totally devils Advocate tonight.
Fenris said "One thing we have learned from Lost is you can't make assumptions about peoples alliegence based on the things they are driven to do"
That was what i loved about mr. eko. he used whatever alliance he could to overcome whatever situation "i did not ask for the life i was given, but it was given anyway.
off topic - saw disney on ice tonight with my almost two year old son and have to say was really suprised at how good it was. recommend it highly.
fenris: do you know how gas masks work??
they don't contain breathable air. they're not oxygen tanks.
they are basically filters. trust me.
i remember when we were in the gas chamber and even WITH the masks on, you could still feel it burning your throat and lungs.
oh and what fun it was when we had to remove them, state our name, platoon and social.........then we were "fortunate" enough to have our drill instructors make us "exercise" for a bit while it felt like hands INSIDE you squeezing your lungs and throat....gagging.....losing control of tears, snot and drool....some even vomitted.
however, it taught you to appreciate the masks and you made sure you knew how to don-and-clear them when gas has already been released.
the masks basically have FILTERS that keep 98% or so from getting to you. they basically buy time.
that's why you have to change the filters.
and what sucks........try DRINKING through those things!!! ugh!
and wearing those, with the hoods and the MOPP gear with cammies and boots and helmets with full packs and flack-jackets and cartridge belts while carrying your weapons and ammo.........oh joyous days in the desert!!
Good morning Peeps;Happy Easter.
Anyone up for a Lost easter egg hunt?
I think there still may be a few out there.
Peace,and namaste Loco's;God bless you all each day.
Chuckles3;
You reminded me of my old basic training days.(you don't forget something like that).Don't work so hard.
Maven;
Belated birthday??? I must have had a Desmond moment.I think your Birthday flashed before my eyes.Glad it was a good one; now, I can say it.
I'm glad John Locke has a new family.Wait till he tries that old orange peel smile on them.:)
i know, right? haha
well, i'm actually working today. at least it's double-time. besides, i'd be here doing nothing anyway if i wasn't there.
well talk to everyone later.
Good Easter morning, locos! Yes, takes a village, I think we all love Easter eggs.
I've finally caught up on the posts. I work 2 jobs during the week, so I save part of my weekends immersed in all of the great thoughts on Lost. Most of my ideas have already been spoken here.
Blogger won't let me in. Arrgh.
I think Juliet is a plant and is going to monitor the babies. They were counting on Jack to bring her to the beach. Unlike Ben, Jules only has to worry about Sawyer kicking her you-know-what because she has neutralized Kate with mind games and Sayid doesn't torture women (anymore.)
It was nice seeing Sawyer being nice but it didn't ring true. He's a con man and knows very well that you give people what they want and tell them what they want to hear to get what you want. He didn't need Hurley for that.
Cassity helping Kate out of the goodness of her heart for a fellow sister? Sounds fishy to me. Something's going on here.
And finally, Locke has been thoroughly seduced by Ben. He is now the most special. He has a new daddy to replace the bad daddy. He has a family. He doesn't need Room 23 to do anything they want him to.
Sorry for the long post. I never know when I'll have time. Oh, and my birthday is January 22. I'll be 54! Hahahaha!
(Blogger is evil.)
Another thought. I believe there are tunnels. Could the others be taking them to the place they think is contaminated with Danielle's sickness? That's why they needed the gas masks outdoors. Or maybe some of the Others have been led to believe there is a sickness like Desmond. I can see Ben getting his followers agitated by telling them that they have been forced to take extreme measures because of the infiltration from the New Hostiles, ie, the Losties.
Happy Easter LoCos!
An article about the gas canisters. In other words, an Easter Egg.
In Kurt Vonnegut's novel Cat's Cradle, he invents a religion, called Bokononism. The book is set mostly on a Caribbean Island, where an assorted group of people inadvertently bring about the end of the world. A belief of Bokononism is that God arranges people into teams to do His work. A team is called a karass. A karass is a "team [of people] that does God's Will without ever discovering what they are doing". Humanity is organized into many such teams. One can try to discover "the limits of [one's] karass and the nature of the work God Almighty has had it do ... but such investigations are bound to be incomplete." If you find your life tangled up with somebody else's life for no very logical reasons, then that person may be a member of your karass.
This reminds me very strongly of Lost. I doubt that God or fate has brought people together on The Island, but some powerful force has. It remains to be seen whether this power is a force for good or evil.
happy easter, all !
um idk what happened to my old blogger account but i guess my new one has an exclamation point at the end ?
why is blogspot being weeirdd .
whats going onnnnn .
well thats a bummer hearing about the ALS technologies thing .. and the place on the website really does look like the island ! red herring, much .
A tremendous and glorious Easter Sunday to one and all Locos, Peace be with you-
Hi there memphish, thanks for the link to the canisters, I had a feeling that was an easter egg. I’ve had a busy w/e and haven’t had time to read the comments here or read anything LOST. I did manage to pickup the current LOST mag with the blastdoor map. It’s a great pic of the blastdoor map, now I just need to find time to study it.
What is up experimentalfilm? Nice avatar. Looks like you and memphish are the only ones here.
Just thought I'd pop in and say "hi" and Happy Easter! Didn't think there'd be much activity here today with the holiday and being Sunday. Hope things will pick up tomorrow. Wonder if there's going to be a podcast?
Happy Easter Everyone!
happy happy.
Tall Guy, Good stuff with the Cat's Cradle. I recently read Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse 5 and I think that what's going on with Desmond is pretty similar to Billy Pilgrim and how he comes unstuck in time. I think the Others who have overcome their enslavement to time and space may be unstuck as well which is why Klugh and Patchy didn't mind dying that much.
I've never used a gas mask. But still even as a filter it doesn't really change what I was saying. Just replace the bit about going somewhere they need oxygen to going somewhere they need to filter the air.
Although there is another option. The others could just be kinky.
Re the gas masks: I agree with Fenris that the Others were probably going someplace where they needed to filter the air. I don't think they were concerned about the cannisters (otherwise why would everyone have to mask up?). Since 50 people seemed to vanish according to Sayid, I think they might be going underground (which has been alluded to by TPTB...remember underworld?).
we didn't see all 50 don the masks. only about 6. exactly the number they'd need to achieve their goal.
"exactly the number" is a figure of speech. you get the point.
Does anyone think that maybe the reason Smokey flashed Juliet was because she is "marked?" Just a thought...
"marked"?
was that tree the "express (10 items or less) line"??
hahaha.
just kidding. eh. bar-code marked or what?
mark of the beast?
eh........let me know.
talk to everyone later.
Nice.
In Season 3 Episode 9, Jack made a deal with Ben. Jack would stay and bring Ben back to good health (post-tumor removal) if they would let Juliet live (who was in trouble for killing Danny). Alex and Jack took a note written by Ben to Isabelle saying that execution was off of the table, but he had ordered her to be marked...and they looked like this was a bad thing. Then we actually see "the mark" when Juliet shows Jack the brand on her lower back.
I just thought that if the others viewed being "marked" as a bad thing, and Smokey flashed Juliet (and I can't remember Smokey ever flashing anyone) that perhaps maybe is was because she is "marked."
brianne - thats an interesting thought .. they havent alluded to the mark since "stranger in a strange land" (probably because it was such a bad epi :X) but it could definitely have something to do with that . i think we all forgot about her mark till now .
Chuckles - How many people need to wear gas masks to gas 2-4 people held captive inside buildings in which those using the gas are not also in? I think the answer would be you *need* none at all. Unless your planning to go into those buildings, in which case 8 (I just counted) is still not a definite number. Plus kinda strange they were all geared up with backpacks and stuff already. Theres definetly something strange there. At the very least it suggests the Others are working almost as if they are following "A health and safety guide to using gas on people".
Brianne - Good thoughts. That would mean Smokey is sensitive to the mark, which if we ignore magic as a reason, suggests that either it is designed to react to it or more likely it has seen it before and so recognises it. I have no trouble believing Smokey can scan people and see if they are marked under their clothes, that seems feasible. Maybe the mark is the Cerberus control hatches designation. But since it went nuts, the first people it killed was it's controllers and then maybe the others used the mark as a "to be sacrificed to smokey" thing.
I just rewatched the Smokey scene in The 23rd Psalm to confirm this. When Smokey confront Eko we watch from behind Smokey. There are 4 flashes like a flash bulb, just like there were when we saw the Smokey and Juliet. They just look brighter and more ominous because it's night, she's wet, and we're closer to her face.
While I think it's important to remember Juliet's mark, I don't think that was what Smokey was responding to because we have no reason to believe Eko or Locke are also marked.
Good Monday morning fellow Locos. Did I miss something regarding birthdays? I've noticed a lot of folks posting their birthdates/ages. BTW, mines 9/4 and I'm 250 years old -- at least that's what blogger says. Didn't I tell you? I'm part of that whole life-expectancy project and proof that it works...
ib4uc, Dennis is recording birthdays since it was Maven's on Friday and tomorrow is jgz350s. Happy Early Birthday jgz350.
Memphish
The downloading, or whatever it is that Smokezilla does, makes me think that Juliet may be judged in some future episode, as Eko was.
Thanks memphish. I knew it was maven's bday and jgz's was coming up from reading the posts. I missed dennis' one about keeping a list though.
Tall guy, I hope she's judged exactly like Eko, slamming into a tree and everything. Really it would be more interesting to see it do something different. Do you think it might take the form of her Hit by a Bus husband or maybe her pregnant sister or maybe the product of that pregnancy? And will Juliet confess?
memphish said...While I think it's important to remember Juliet's mark, I don't think that was what Smokey was responding to because we have no reason to believe Eko or Locke are also marked.
Agreed memphish, the pilot too, I am pretty sure he was just hanging out in a tree when he was clobbered. Although the idea that the people scanned are designated or marked in some was is very interesting. Why are some killed while others are left alone?
Also, I completely agree with the idea that Smokey is collecting data and scanning, but I am always spouting off about that.
RE gas masks, what was ever the consensus on the house that Jack was in being all messed up? Was he knocked out in a struggle or gassed? Maybe some of the Others went back in there after he was knocked out...you would need a mask for that.
PS I *heart* when work is slow :D.
Good morning LoCo!
Fenris, I'm sorry I skimmed past your comment about the importance of Kate's dad in the world of the Others. That's an excellent thought that the Others would consider her act so much more awful if he had some connection with him. (and a much more advanced theory than my "I wonder what the Others told Locke about Kate?" musing!)
For what it's worth, I also agree that the others were outfitting themselves for some sort of expedition. There wouldn't be any reason for them to don masks when they're that far away from an enclosed building with gas. Even if the door was opened, the gas would dissipate...after all it was only strong enough to knock them out, not to kill them.
Good morning and hope everyone had a Happy Easter!!
Interesting discussions about Smokey! Actually I was wondering if they put on gas masks because of smokey. Maybe they aren't gas masks, but smokey-blocking masks and they can't be "photographed" by it when they have them on. Memphish, in the scene from 23rd Psalm you rewatched, I take it you're talking about when Smokey confronted Eko face-to-face and we saw images from Eko's past?
Eko and Smokey the First Time
I see the flashes too memphish.
Codysmom, yes that is the scene. The one where Charlie is in the tree and Eko stares him down face to face. It's on YouTube here though it's hard to see the flashes.
Ange and I officially have too much time on our hands this morning.
Thanks for the link, ange & memphish.
Oh, and my birthday is Sept. 5th, close to dedjezter's and ib4uc's, but I'm wayyyy younger than 250 years old:)
Go Virgos!!
http://www.archive.org/download/TLCPODCAST19a/Track01_64kb.mp3
This has been done for hours!! Thought you guys would want to listen!!!
WORD!!
I am wondering if Locke also saw flashes too when he saw Smokey (being dragged)? If he did then it may be that when you look Smokey in the eye the first time, you are scanned, assessed...then judged. THEN if you don't add up, the next time you see Smokey you are banged around.
Too much time eh memphish, my kids are at an assembly, you would think I could find something better to do huh!
ANGE- I think that maybe Jack's house was all messed up because he was upset at not being able to go home because Locke "blew up the sub" and trashed his own house.
Also, now that I've gone back and rewatched the scene with Eko and Smokey, I'd have to agree with you that Smokey flashes you to obtain information somehow. But I also think that Smokey would have known, after flashing Juliet, that she was marked, but beyond that, I have no idea!
How do you know it's a Monday morning before you've had enough coffee? When letting people know your birthdate, you give them your daughters instead.
Ooooops! Mine is 9/9
codysmom said... Go Virgos!! I second that!
Looking forward to the podcast.
Brianne, that's an interesting idea about Jack trashing his own house. It would be like when Ben got Locke's goat in the hatch. Maybe Locke came to tell Jack goodbye as well. Childish, immature behavior is a hallmark of the Jack/Locke relationship. Good thinking.
Good Morning LoCos!
NEW POST!!!!
First post in a very long time (it's Shakey from TLE)! Been lurking off and on for a while but I felt the need to post as I might have something to say. Gotta be quick though as I'm rushed of my feet at work...
1: Juliet
Tying together a lot of opinions here I think she's more like a sleeper agent than a plant/mole - she IS undercover but does not know she is: Ben's set everything up to have her infiltrate the camp, gain the Fusies' trust (fertility doctor specifically and 2nd medically-trained person in the camp now) and fully integrate into the community. For what purpose remains to be seen (what about Desmond? The Other want to know how the hell he survived the Swan implosion and the effects it's had on him - they already have Locke) but the key here is that Juliet genuinely believes she's been left behind, so no matter how much Sayid can "work" on her she's always telling the truth, because it IS the truth to her.
2: Smokey
Who knows what's going on there, but it looks very much like it chases and works on echolocation like a bat or motion-sensing. The sonic field would create such a disruption to Smokey's tracking ability/vision that it goes crazy, repeatedly butting into the sonic fence before ultimately giving up and retreating. Bats go crazy ape if their echolocation is messed with before running off - smokey's done the same.
It's interesting that Juliet's never seen it before when Rousseau knows exactly what it is, which leads me to think that Rousseu is DHARMA and the Others are the "hostiles" who've taken over the DHARMA site.
3: Christian
We have seen scenes with a positive ID on his corpse and talk of autopsy reports. Did we ever see his body in the morgue? Was it all stiched back up like in a full autopsy or not? I'm thinking one of two things:
a: he faked his death using the near-death appearance akin to Medusa's venom for some reason (to which crashing on the island's messed up his plans for whatever he was going to do).
b: he WAS dead but the island brought him back. Locke's back was healed but we don't know why, Rose's cancer was cured but we don't know why. Maybe Christian fits into the island's reasoning and brought him back too.
And just a little thing from a few posts ago re the Medusa spider and Artz's discoveries:
I was going to post last week but got dragged away. Having watched the episode a few times now I've noticed that what he says is actually two seperate sentences, each with their own subject. Basically he says "I've discovered lots of new things" (end of sentence). He then replies to "what's this?" with "oh that's Medusa" (new topic).
So it's not a case of "I've discovered lots of new things, including this spider that I'm conveniently going to call Medusa because of the properties of her venom that I don't know about" as Medusa is a known species which just happens to exist on this island also. Interestingly, if Artz is as knowledgable as he appears then he'd possibly be able to work out where in the world the island based on Medusa's life known habitats.
Anyway, that's my mightt tome - back to lurking probably!
Quick clarification I forgot to put in:
Smokey working on motion-sensing through air disturbances would explain why you can avoid it by staying still and staying quiet (like the T-Rex from Jurassic Park or a movement version of Predator's vision). Turning on the sonic fence would agitate air molecules so much that all smokey can "see" is a big wall of noise. Given that it's in "chase mode" when Jules switches on the sonic fence smokey's going to get very, very confused by its target disappearing behind this wall so it's going to go crazy ape at the wall, ultimately getting disrupted by it before retreating.
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