On tonight's episode, Faraday discloses what he knows about the island, beginning a time of reckoning.
Where has Dan been? How did he get all of the information found in his notebook? Who are his parents and was he born on the island?
Time for the Geek to spill his secrets!
Wednesday, April 29, 2009
The Variable - Season 5, Episode 14
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Second?
third!
This is starting out good.
Yes... indeed... very good
email!
Phil isn't very social now is he... not a hello, not even a hi...lol
Heeheh, good post Melissa!
What the heck, the Cloverfield monster is in Start Trek??!!
That Star Trek clip was a disappointment. I wanted to see the movie before I saw the clip. Now, I'm not so sure.
So thats where the cloverfield monster came from... but isn't startreck in the 23rd century... damn time travel, always seems to be the answer these days huh?
Boy, it's about time. Chang is trying to create time travel and no one up to now has had the decency to tell him that they're from the future! He deserves to know! :o)
LOL
Hey, all! Before Lost, I'm watching "the fount through which all scifi flows," Blade Runner. It's my first time watching it and I've only got the director's cut. Hopefully it will allow me to understand better the constant references on SciFiWire.
I'm really liking this episode so far. I wonder what Eloise is planning to tell Penny. Surely she must have more info besides her son being responisble for Desmond being in harm's way.
Also, where does she get her info from? How does she know what her son's desitny is (how cruel is it to tell a talented kid like that that he can't play piano AND do science? Especially since studies have shown that music enhances intellectual ability.
And how did she know that Desmond was shot? I'm guessing Widmore told her?
Heh heh.... good luck twink. Hope it helps.
So, Mrs.H is the scientific version of a stage mother. :-p
Wow - let's just lay it all out there, huh, Dan?
Now THAT is some flashback hair of doom!
This so good. This is the Lost I love.
Of "DOOM" you say... I think it was better than Jack's beard.
How can Ellie do time travel yet and when did Daniel find out that she could?
Loving it!! Don't like Ellie/Hawkings.. what's her hidden agenda?
We don't know Daniel's dad, do we?
lol Twitchy
Hey, here's a thought - do you think that Charlie told Hurley to go back to find Claire?
Hurley's comment after Jin said he wasn't leaving made me wonder.
So far BR seems pretty standard, Ded. It has shades of Assimov's Foundations, BSG, AI, and all those other humans versus robots stories. I even see shades of Dollhouse and Heroes.
I have to keep reminding myself that this isn't cliche because this was the first!
BS I don't think so.
movie like this anyway
it would be cool if Richard was Daniel's dad!! LOL!
His condition?
Well I guess that seals it. Widmore just admitted to the freckage.
Charlotte! He's telling her!
Wow!
Who shot first Radzinsky's group?
He told Charlotte because he thinks he knows how to change whatever happened
If Dan dies I'll be very sad.
I guess there was no Dharma Shooting Range.
I wonder if we'll get back to Des?
I think Radzinski shot first.. will check later..
I agree, capcom! I'll be so sad if Daniel dies!
My theory - Dan can't die because when Ellie sends them back to "where they belong" that's how Dan loses his memory. He gets sent back to just beofre the freckage is found. That's why he's crying. He thinks all his friends are dead, but because of his memory loss, he doesn't really understand that the people potentially on the plane are his friends. It hits him at a more primal emotional level.
The island will heal him. :)
So how did Faraday's mother end up selling/not selling Desmond the ring then? Does she time travel too?
Uh-oh!
Aha! Soylent variables are people!
Yes!!
And detonating a hydrogen bomb is better than releasing the energy? WTF?
What is up with these "What did you see?" commercials? Anyone?
"What did you see?" I don't get it...
So, detonating Jughead will negate the pocket of energy?
Why do I get the feeling that he's going to fail and that the "incident" will happen anyway?
BS That's what he thinks. I wonder if it will work?
This has been the best episode this season.
Maybe it will partially fail? IDK
There's '42' again - showing up on a show with "Micheal" on it.
If Dan's plan works, there's no reason for season 6.. lol!
It's not the first time 42 showed up on that show. Per promos. I don't watch it.
Is Jughead going to effect Des?
Theres your answer about Dans Dad
Widmore IS Daniel's father!
OMG! She shot her own son!
Lostit... I think as a goof on LOST killing Mike twice... his Character on the Unusuals has a fear of dying in his 42 year of life because his father and grandfather both died at 42.... I think it is funny.
Who knew?
ummm.........i saw a school. about 6-8 kids coming out after the bell. looked like one girl had a flower dress on.
too bad i don't have tivo.
peace, love and purgatory
Well I guess Jughead is not a factor now.
OK maybe I'm slow but I think I just figured out why Daniel wasn't concerned about the consequences of the bomb going off (other than to make sure Charlotte and others got off the island in case he failed).
Once the bomb destroys the energy, the whole timeline reverts to what it's supposed to be and the bomb never goes off.
i knew the reason the plane crashed since the first season. nothing special about that bit of info on the show. haha.
actually.......come to think of it........i really didn't need to mention it here either. haha.
anyway........are the commercials another "game"?
peace, love and purgatory
So why did Eloise send her son back to the island knowing that she would kill him?
So Jack and the crew are going to trigger Jughead then? Erase the past and all? I don't think that will work, you can't change what's already happened, and whatever happened/happens to the magnetic anomaly is their past.
well, actually........the bomb DOES go off.......and nothing ELSE ever happens, meaning that there is no more plane crash, no flight 815 vs the others, etc. and no reason for daniel to come to the island.
that is.........unless he's killed. then, that would be a paradox and a half.
peace, love and purgatory.
OMG!! I hate Ms. Hawkings!!!
I haven't been watching the commercials.
But I read somewhere maybe TV Guide that they were going to start promoting a new show for next season tonight called Flashforward.
Wow! That was HARSH!
So what did bringing Dan back only to kill him accomplish?
I think she sent Faraday back to the past to shoot him to keep the time line constant. She knows she shot him, so she has to send him back to get shot.
She sent him back so his MIND can help END the nonsense!!!!
because he writes everything down and the survivors will read and implement the process.
peace, love and purgatory
Chuckles, you make sense! Eloise knew that if Daniel was successful in detonating the bomb it would be a disaster, so she made sure that he went back so she could kill him.
Not sure why the others needed to go back - to get Daniel to the right place maybe?
Well my local ABC station ruined the whole thing by having an alert for the last 10 minutes of the episode, so I didn't hear what Hawking and Widmore said or what Richard said, and I'm so blooming mad because hey, call the police. If I'm home watching TV I'm not going to the bus station to look for these people, and while I hope they find them, this was a 29 year old women otherwise known as a consenting adult. Sorry for the rant, but until tomorrow I don't know what I think except that the episode answered a lot of questions like Daniel crying and his memory loss and his parentage.
As to why Hawking was such a witch of a mom I don't get it because if what happened happened why can't Daniel have a girlfriend. That makes no sense to me. Nor does Daniel's accent given his parents both have British ones. Oh wait, I guess that house he grew up in was in Massachusetts. And was Daniel raised on Island at least some of the time? But he wouldn't remember because of the memory loss? Where was a young Daniel in 1977 if his parents were on the Island?
And maybe it wasn't just Widmore having a child off Island, but cheating on his Island spouse that led to banishment. But why would Hawking help Ben? To tick off Widmore?
Probably won't hang around 'cause I'm still so mad about my messed up viewing experience. Looking forward to all your comments.
Sayid's Girl - oh, I bet you're right. In Flashforward, everyone on the planet blacks out for a couple of minutes, and sees a glimpse of their future. I think it's based on a book.
the survivors of flight 815 had to go back maybe because of their knowledge of where everything is?
But I doubt it. Because who would've guessed that they would've been SPLIT into TWO separate TIMES?
Ugh........Maybe JACK becomes Jacob!!!! Yikes!
Lostit
I guess because she is a course correcter.
Will
It's not their past. This is their present and it hasn't happened to them yet. So they could change it.
2004 for the ones left behind 2007for the O6 they've already lived is now their past. It's already happened.
memphish - Widmore asked is Des was okay, and when he heard he was, he said "good." Hawking said Penny was inside, he should say hi, and he said he had to give up his relationship with Penny. Hawking said don't tell her about giving things up because she had to send her son to the island and Widmore said "he's my son too." Then she slapped him.
Then, basically Dan asked for Ellie, Richard said she wasn't there, Dan asked where Jughead was and Richard said put the gun down and we'll talk, and then bang.
Oh, and what happened to Dan was the spoiler that I accidentally read a couple of days ago, so I'm in the clear again!
Although I didn't think until just now that Dead Dan = me losing major fantasy points! Plus, I'm sad.
Unfortunately Memphish, none of the questions that you asked were answered in the part that you missed. :o)
We had to know that something would happen to Dan when Eloise sais something like, "I had to send my son back to that island to.....!" To get shot, wahhhhhh! Well, at least he didn't die this week, I don't have to be really sad until he dies next week. :-(
okay writers............still not wrapping my purgatory in here with a neat little bow, yet. **tapping foot**........any day now!!!
peace, love and purgatory
Charlie was meant to die, same with the guy with the tennis shoes. Faraday's mom knew the wall was going to fall and kill him, but didn't try to stop it because it was useless. Yes, it was her future, but also her past, and fighting it would only lead to him dying in a different way. Desmond did the same thing with Charlie, trying to save him many times. How is this different?
I hope that we get told how exactly Dan knew that his mother had been on the island, that Des should go see her in CA, etc., etc.
what a vicious cycle......your mom does the horizontal mambo with widmore, you're born.......you grow up a great mind........LOSE your mind.......get sent to an island where you REGAIN your mind and save the world, JUST to be shot and killed by your MOM who hasn't YET conceived you!!!!
Ouch.
in the immortal words of Steven Wright: "I know when I'm going to die because my birth certificate has an expiration date on it".
peace, love and purgatory.
Hey Lost2010, where are ya?! Hope you were watching. :-o And don't be too sad that Des didn't die.
wait......if she KNEW she was sending him to be shot, then she's already done it. which means, he lives...........right??? hahahaha.
To me it seemed Eloise wanted the 06 to go back at that time. She told Jack it had to be that flight.
She either (a wanted the 06 die in the incident or (b she knew she would kill Dan and knew the 06 would follow Dan's journal. (That she gave him as a gift.)
They can't change what's already happened, they can aid in it happening, but the accident happened. It's in Dharma's future, but the 06's past and future. Same with the tennis shoe guy, Mrs. Faraday's past and future, tennis shoe guy dies. Island accident happens. Unless they change the rules with that little equations book...
okay........off to bed.
enjoy.
peace, love and purgatory
Yes, something's up with her, SG.
BTW, I had kinda hoped that Br.Campbell was Dan's father. Er, in a previous non-monastic life that is.
Doc Jensen's mirror theory just keeps getting stronger. Season 1 ended, and Season 6 will presumably begin, with the Swan being blown to smithereens.
will: actually, the "past" ceased being the past, when they went back FURTHER than the "past". Now, it's actually the FUTURE. So, yes.........they CAN keep it from happening, because they are now further in the past.
Except for Locke and the gang.
actually, my theory on a revolving time loops still holds as well.
it's a cycle. same number of people had to return. and in the "new" future, another crash....the old survivors "become" the new hostiles/dharma initiative, etc.
musical (time) chairs.
Kyle - furthering the "mirror" theory - the idea of The Constant vs The Variable.
I pick B, Sayid'sgirl. Our losties are the variables that are left now and they will try to accomplish what Dan didn't get the chance to do. I'd like to know when Locke, Ben, Ilana, and the other 316ers will come into play here.
Yeah, the idea of balance and mirror-twinning has been around for a while (J Wood's been pounding that nail for years now).
But Doc's theory/observation was that events on the Island were doubling back over themselves, and that the actual events as portrayed through 5+ season were reflecting each other. Seasons 3 and 4 were similar. Seasons 2 and 5 are similar. Seasons 1 and 6 are looking like they might be awfully similar.
I like the musical time chairs idea!
That's true anon. I guess this whole thing hinges on one thing for me. How did Mrs. Faraday know the man in the tennis shoes was going to die? Did she time travel back to before he died? If that is true then past and future are all intertwined in destiny, and nothing can be changed like she said, meaning even if you travel back in time to before an event takes place, you will be powerless to alter it. Like why Michael couldn't get shot, the gun would jam because it wasn't his destiny yet. Or why the french woman wasn't shot by her husband (gun jam again), we know she lives much longer before dying.
Hmmmm.... too sleepy to think anymore. G'night all!
In the begining I wonder if Ellie had already killed Dan on the island? She looks about the same age as she was on the island.
She seemed upset and was talking about Dan's destiny and her destiny although she stopped herself from saying it and said job.
I wonder if she was banished from the island for killing Dan?
I think Ellie is the one Widmore was seeing off island and had Dan.
...what if Mrs. Faraday is wrong? Although Desmond couldn't keep Charlie from dying, he did delay the inevitable, showing that destiny can be bent. But can it be bent enough to break? I guess we'll find out if those equations really help, or just make things worse. Anyway, I think it's beddy bye time for me as well. It's been fun. :)
So who is Penny's mother? Do we know?
I'm leaning towards the O6 needing to go back because if they didn't, Kate wouldn't have found out where to find the hostiles and wouldn't be able to lead Dan (who is already on the island) to them so that she could shoot him. I guess if he had gotten there at any other time in any other way, he might have found and detonated the bomb and Eloise had to make sure that didn't happen.
What bugs me is that now Eloise is all sorry that she got Des involved, after being Mrs.I'm-a-timelord-do-what-I-say-or-else?! Hmph.
C-ya Will.
Oooooh! Now I'm really sad. Why can't they Temple him like they did Ben?
I hope that they can Twinkle!
Good point Capcom.
And what about the island not being done with Desmond yet? What does he have left to do? Or has that changed now considering Eloise no longer knows what's going to happen next? WHY doesn't she know anymore?
I bet Ms. Hawkings knows the future because of Jacob (similar to how Ben was always one step ahead of our Losties).
If Daniel was right, then the human factor (the variables) and free will can change what happened.
No, we don't know who Penny's mother is.
So Eloise doesn't know what's going to happen anymore because she sent new "variables" back to 1977 island time?
I wonder how Dan knew that our Losties didn't belong on the island?
I don't know, twinkle, but the more I think about Ms. Hawkings killing her own son and sacrificing him to whatever (as Widmore also says he's had to sacrifice his relationship with Penny) it just gets me mad! Especially when Daniel's solution to it all comes down to something as simple as the human factor/free will being able to change things.
Ouroboros.
Yep. And it's all sounding like the chaos theory in Jurassic Park too. No matter how much you plan, the chaos factor (and people variables) is always there to try to mess it up. :o)
to mess it up for fix it up.. LOL!
I just thought of something.. with the comic-con video of Chang where it sure sounds like Daniel Faraday's voice.. will that not happen now?
Yeah, curious. When does that happen? Because Chang obviously does not believe Daniel in this episode enough to make that video or so it seems. But do TPTB consider the Comic Con video cannon?
Tune in next time to hear Daniel whisper his final breath...
"Penny, I. am. your. brotha!"
That's what someone said over at Bigmouth's, that maybe Dan doesn't die since it seems like he manages to get back to DI-ville to convince Chang and help make the vid. I sure hope so.
I think TPTB consider the comic-con video canon. I'm a bit confused because of the flashback with Daniel and Chang, so I'm re-watching now. I think there is a period of time between Daniel telling Chang he's from the future and Daniel going to Ann Arbor to research at DI headquarters. (It's funny, but I lived in Ann Arbor for a short time in about the time period they're talking about and I never saw any DI headquarters.. LOL!)
Well for right now all we know is that he was shot. But things certainly point to him being dead.
LOL, BS. My cousin also went to college there at that time. :o)
BTW if we're changing the future, I hope someone runs down Radzinsky the next time he walks out in front of a moving van.
Oh, I wasn't going to college there... my blood runs green (MSU) NOT BLUE (UofM) LOL, just wanted to make that clear!!! Seriously, Ann Arbor is a lovely college town and it cracks me up to see ppl calling it Ann Harbor and Ann Arbra.. :-)
Dan is either dead or in a coma according to this closeup
Twinkle, LOL, "Penny, I am your brotha!"
Sayid'sgirl, Radzinski gets on my nerves, too!
No way, his eyes are still open, he could be breathing!!!
His eyes are looking nowhere.. not a good sign
I bet he stays dead. A cast this large they have to lose a few biggies now and then. Boohoo though! I wasn't through listening to Daniel talk about time travel. And, geek girl that I am, he was currently the character on the show I'd most like to date (circumstances being different). :-)
Is anyone familiar with Wired magazine? It sound familiar to me but I don't know why.
Anyway there's a copy of it on the sofa when Widmore comes to visit Dan. One of the caption on the front cover says The Impossible Get Real. I can't read anything else. I don't have HD.
Oh and next weeks promo looks reallly good too!
This is just a quickie before I go to bed and catch up tomorrow.
Anyone have a site that has a summary (or even detail) level explanation of Doc Jensen's Mirror Theory? Sounds intriguing...
Also, what do we think about the idea that Jack will set off the bomb, and it will be the CAUSE of releasing all that energy. In other words, they think they're going to change everything, not knowing that this is how it always happened.
Sorry for your loss, Twinkle, but I think you're right and he stays dead. They even had him explain to Jack that any one of them could die (to reinforce Mile's talk with Hurley).
Wired Magazine is all about science I think. You can get it online:
http://www.wired.com/
I'll try to get a cap..
Isn't J.J. the guest editor for Wired this month? I keep forgetting to check it out at the bookstore.
Yeah, I think that they're gonna crack time wide open by trying to fix it, and then they'll get stuck in a loop reliving everything over and over again for eternity. X-D
Thanks Black Swan.
I hate to do it but I guess I better get to bed if I'm getting up at 6:30.
Talk to guys tomorrow. I check out your cap then.
capcom, you're right about JJ being the guest editor! That's why I was just at that site recently..
g'nite, Sayidsgirl! I'll see what I can do!
To me it looks like Ellie just got a directive and is upset about it when she goes to tell Daniel he has to stop his piano playing. It's so cute when he says he'll MAKE TIME.. Anyway, she looks pretty upset
and here, which is actually the frame before
In a way, Daniel being told what you "should be", your destiny because of your "gift" reminds me a lot of Locke when he was growing up and all he wanted was to play football (I think) and not excel in science. And I say, good for Locke!! And good for anyone who says, 'Don't tell me what I can't do!"
Yes, and in the captions oddly enough, when Danny says "make" it's italicised. Like Dan really will make or create time. Just kinda weird.
Interesting, capcom! And that's the feeling I got when I saw it, but didn't have CC on.
Young Wallace: Here's a page out of Doc Jensen's own recaps. Gives a good rundown of the "doubling-back on itself" idea.
Here is my very humble offering:
Bad boys and heroes stay away;
My heart belongs to Faraday.
He never made it to the Staff
So now we write his epitaph.
A mother killed her only son
Or did the island shoot the gun?
Abused by Time, what time he had,
At least he was not his own dad.
Daniel, big of heart and mind,
Rest in peace 'til I rewind.
Aw, that's really sweet, Twinkle! very nicely done!
Kyle, I'd love to see what Doc Jensen says happen! I've always wanted our Losties to 'do it again' this time with their 'enlightenments' (and would love to have that statement of Sawyer to Kate - been waiting for that birthday kiss for 4 years - finally explained!
funny on kimmel right now!!!
What a great episode with so much information! We get so many confirmations of things we've been saying all along (wonder how the casual viewers reacted tonight?):
Finally, confirmation that Daniel is Hawking's son! And Widmore is Daddy!
Miles: "Don't ask me, I was just carrying his luggage."
Jack's destiny is not to be in 1977.
So Daniel's Mother believe it's her "job" to keep him on his path of science and mathematics. How can she deny him the piano? Dan: "I can make time."
Finally, someone is coming right out with some info! Go Dan! And then it sounds so crazy!
So they only have 6 hours until something happens at the Swan?
Hawking sure seems like a bitch! Poor Theresa.
"Welcome to the meeting, Twitchy." lol
Another confirmation that Ellie=Hawking.
So now we know why Daniel is crying watching the freckage...he has a memory loss condition from experimenting on himself. Quick shot of "Wired" magazine...current issue is by JJ! lol
And another confirmation from Widmore that he planted the freckage. He is recruiting him to get on the freighter. Daniel's mother and Widmore were "old friends".
Hurley: "1954? Like Fonzie times?"
Sawyerism: "H.G. Wells"
Charlotte with the no chocolates before dinner line. I don't think Daniel looked like a scary man!
So much explanation...AT LAST! People are variable....they have free will and can change destiny.
How will setting off Jughead be better?
OMG...shot by your own mother who probably hasn't conceived you yet? My head is spinning. Is Daniel really dead? So now our gang has to be the variables and try to do what Daniel wanted to.
Hawking has known all along what happens happened. For the first time she doesn't know what will happen next in re Desmond.
Ahh Twinkle
That's a wonderful poem/epitaph.
Hey Twinkle
If you want to blame somebody for Dan's death blame Kate.
She was the one who said they needed guns to go see the hostiles.
If they hadn't gone to get the guns Radzinsky wouldn't have caught them sounded the alarm and found Phil in the closet.
Dan wouldn't have had a gun when he went to talk to Ellie and she wouldn't have shot him to protect Richard.
So, it's all Kate's fault. ;) lol
This is the kind of episode I wanted all season.
It's what I expected when the 06 went back. But instead they all sat around on their backsides and waited for fate/Dan to step in. Which was annoying.
I was hoping the whole season would be this exciting. But at least it's finally gotten there.
BTW do you think Dan's mom gave him the journal because she knew he'd lose his memory?
I still have to catch up on comments and rewatch the episodes without interruption online, but as an initial reaction The Variable was no The Constant. It was a straightforward flashback episode that filled in blanks that had been raised mostly for the last 2 seasons and then ended with a bang. I have to now nominate Eloise Hawking as my most despised character on LOST. Her fatalistic approach to determinism is a real downer. She is definitely glass half empty.
Yes, this episode was "the bomb"! Or is that one still coming? LOL
So do people think that Dan wasn't born until after 1977? That would make him 27 in 2004. It would also make him 1 year younger than Miles and 8 years younger than Charlotte, in which case all I can say is bad casting.
Here's one for you mirror folk. This was Shannon's shooting in reverse. Gut shot from behind.
I don't understand how the Comic Con video fits into this.
Nice poem Twinkle.
Maybe Faraday's wound will move in the intervening week like a certain other wound we've seen this season.
I kinda like the idea that the losties cause the incident that they are trying to prevent. It fits the "whatever happened, happened" idea. But I don't see necessarily how their absence in the timeline (thereby not causing the incident) would present a "god help us all" situation. And I don't believe that Eloise would have sent her only son into harm's way knowing full well that she shot him if it wasn't for a greater purpose like saving the world from whatever catastrophe would have happened had he not been there.
OK so the timeline from that point on would be different if the incident didn't happen, but would that be a catastrophe of "god help us all" proportions?
I don't get that either LostIt except that I think the Island would have made them so miserable off Island that they felt they had to return.
Good point about Kate, Sayid's Girl. I'm still laying the blame on the Island. It likes to mess with people's lives and give people "destinies." How does it have the right?
Another inconsistency/difference I noted last night - Faraday didn't warm Charlotte the way she said he did. She said her line about chocolate and then Faraday just told her to leave. He did not tell her to never come back to the island or she would die. He'd also been gone for 3 years and was probably not an "old friend" of her family.
That and the Chang Comic Con video might be two things that have possibly already changed about the past, which means more things could change.
And I used to be a firm subscriber to "whatever happened, happened." It just seems that TPTB have changed things on us. I'm feeling sorry for those who are keeping timelines!
Also Lostpedia calls the electromagnetic issue at the Swan "The Incident." But the Blast Door map clearly says "AH/MDG incident of 1985." So this is something different. I think the writers made that clear by having Daniel call it "The Accident" over and over again.
That should be he didn't "warn" Charlotte. He was plenty warm. :-)
Another question I have about Hawking is whether she's been skipping through time and that's how she knows so much about what's happened? She wouldn't have been skipping at the time she shot Daniel or she would have known he's her son. Does The Accident cause her to start skipping? If she skips, what's her constant?
I'm not sure she skips through time but experiences it all at one time.
At the end of the show it seemed something had changed that.
I found it odd when Daniel was talking to Kate Jack about the chain of events he said they would push the button for the next 20 years.
So they don't finish building the Swan until 1984? Or is the a continuity error?
lol sort of like my typing. It should be this not the.
The Incident could be something other than pushing the button. The Accident could cause that while the Incident could do something else.
***Discusses inner workings of show but not a spoiler I think...... Beware anyway***
I read an article on SciFiWire (I think) that said they have one guy whose sole job is to keep an encyclopedia of everything Lost and prevent continuity errors. They admitted that they had a couple but said that this guy kept the number to a surprisingly small amount.
Man, that'd be an amazing job! And boy, I'd like to see his encyclopedia!
Twinkle
I think that guy may be Greg Nations but don't quote me on that.
I think everyone needs to be in a certain time/place before they try to change the future or it will be a God help us all senario.
It won't change the way it's suppose to.
Yes, that's Gregg Nations.
Do you think it could have been the case that Eloise with young Daniel playing the piano had just remembered that she shoots grown-up Daniel the way Desmond remembered meeting Daniel at the Hatch?
memphish, I had that thought too.
memphish
Yeah I said something along those lines last night.
She looked upset like she knew what happened or is going to happen.
Or that she had shot him on the island already and was banned from the island for it.
And now she knows she has to send him to the past to be killed be her.
She definitely knew something troubling, but I like the idea that it would be getting that memory and knowing there's nothing you could do to change it. Do you think Eloise ever tried to change things? Or did she just accept it on faith that she couldn't? I really really dislike her now.
Morning all. (Nice poem, Twinkle)
Hawking sure have a better motive than saving the island! Such a bitch to Theresa and Dan! What is so important to sacrifice your own son. She seemed to know what was going to happen all along, until she got to Marina Hospital and didn't know how Desmond would do. Even Dan seemed to know exactly when Chang would show up at the Orchid. He didn't know that he would be shot?
So Dan's condition of memory loss would explain the card game with Charlotte. The island was healing him and he was getting his memory back.
I was having a discussion on Twitter about what is and isn't canon and specifically if the most recent Chang Comic Con video is canon. I got linked to a Lostpedia recent interview with Damon and Carlton and found this.
Alex: Moving on to more show, or so to speak, related questions. In the special alternate reality game The Dharma Project from last year. A lot of fans want to know, since basically funding was pulled out of the Dharma project last year, what was going to be the final revelation of The Dharma Project? Since The Lost Experience was about the numbers, and Find 815 was about the fake wreckage, so, what was going to be the final act of The Dharma Project?
Damon: Essentially the whole idea was to signal to the audience that our characters: Jack and Kate and Sawyer and Hurley and Juliet and Sayid were going to end up in Dharma times, and Faraday too, sorry, and Miles of course, strongly imply that our characters were going to appear in Dharma times. So that would be something that would be sort of set up in the Internet experience. I think some people believe that they hear Faraday's voice in the Comic-Con experience. These events are sort of partially canon but more promotional than they are canon. Giving the audience a sneak peak as to what the season is about.
Alex: A foreshadowing of what was coming basically?
Damon: Right, and clearly our characters arrive in Dharma times in the seventh episode, in LaFleur, so, we knew that we were gonna be spending with them almost half the season in Dharma times, but we weren't going to be starting to tell the audience that story until after 6 episodes had aired, so uh, sorry, LaFleur is the eighth episode, but that entire story was basically setting up the audience for those stories.
Frankly this really ticks me off.
Sooooooo, the answer is that it is canon...sort of?? :-B
That's pretty vague!
To me that says that video was non-canon and that the fact we haven't seen Faraday and Chang make the video does not mean that Daniel is not in fact dead as some are hoping.
So do you think the last shot of the series will be flight 815 landing in Los Angeles and all the characters continuing on with their lives?
I personally hope not!
I think everyone dies in the end. So maybe landing in LA and having non-intertwined lives is better.
New post on my blog, about archetypal sources for Daniel, and why people be hatin' on Juliet.
Superman and Überbitch
Hating on Juliet is so Season 3.
I know! Maybe you're an exception to my theory.
Now don't get me wrong I hated on Juliet for a long time with the best of them, but this season I love her. She's just got it all together. I started changing my mind about her when she knocked out Jack for his appendectomy. Someone needed to stand up to the dumb@ss doctor and she finally did it. But the Sawliet thing sold me completely.
1. I guess Dan's mental condition was like early onset Alzheimers (caused by his experiments on himself) and the Island healed his brain like locke's legs, I previously thought it was more like Desmond's time sickness on the freighter and his constant fixed him on the island.
2. This explains why Daniel was so shady seeming with jack when he crashed and the card test with Charlotte. The Island needed a little time to fully heal his mind.
3. We finally get concrete confirmation that widmore sunk the fake flight 815, but what does it all mean? Part of why Widmore seems to avoid the island and penny is he knows his role, in the big picture.
4. Did widmore feel Ben tricked him into having penny and setting the whole desmond "variable" into motion, then ben double crossed him and had widmore exiled? It seems to Me this episode strongly implied that Desmond is the variable and Dan's actions down to warning charlotte were constant.
5. Was the journal hawkings gave daniel blank or was it his filled in journal from 1977? How else would Dan's journal have stuff about the secondary protocol and orchid in there? Perhaps from his time in Ann Arbor? The only other thing i could think of was that after Dan fried his mind he was time tripping in his mind and took notes in his journal every time he had a trip.
6. Is daniel's journal the source of a lot of Eloise's knowledge about the future? Is that why she is at the end of her preknowledge in 2007 becaue dan's journal in theory might have stuff about jack and the 2007'ers trapped in '77, but nothing past that point or is it the variables(ajira) she put into play. This also seems to show why she didn't care if Ben went back because she wants as much variable juju as possible. She said all six needed to go, but locke refused to make walt go back and Aarron and ji Yeon didn't go back either, was this all Ben or hawking's attempt at creating more variable.
7. When Hawking talked with Penny, she said she didn't know what was coming next, does that mean she sacrificed daniel, knowing he wasn't the variable, but Jack and the ajira squad are the real Variables? Dan Had tons of foreknowledge in his journal, but he didn't find out about jack and kate and the gang being in 1977 until he saw the picture, that strongly implies to me that slight things have changed in this time loop. Jack and the gang going to 1977 this time around and perhaps jin surviving the freighter. Christain is the reason Jin survived this time around and that's why it surprised Ben. Let's not forget that Mike saved Jin by delaying keamy's kill switch and then Christian told mike when he was done with him. Christain also told Sun, she had a long journey to go to see her husband, like its a important part of the story that christain is engineering. Somehow Sun coming back to the island this time around is related to why she is in 2007.
8. I think that although the war on the island may have played out before, the variables and having John locke back on the island are also making the final outcome of the war widmore talked about in question.
p.s. someone was talking about some quantum theory, where the more different times an outcome happens with the same end, the less likely it is to happen, does anyone think that might relate to all the vision's Desmond had of charlie dying, maybe someone's attempt to actually save charlie. I have often thought that charlie died as desmond's proxy becuase the island needed desmond later, perhaps another slight timeline tweak in the timeloop?
Why does Daniel in 1977 think the Losties aren't supposed to be there at all and that his mother essentially tricked them into being there? Is it that he thinks he can set off the bomb and that will stop 815 from crashing and so they'll have never been there and won't need to return? And if so, what about Sawyer and Jin who wouldn't have been there but for 815 crashing?
Good theory about Hawking's info. coming from Dan's journal 2Costa.
I wonder about Hawking interfering with Desmond. Is she really just playing time cop or is she trying to keep Penny from being happy as some sort of revenge for Widmore cheating?
Daniel asking Hawking if he went to the Island would she be proud of him was about one of the saddest things I've ever seen.
Very good episode, maybe the best of the season so far. A few questions on my mind:
1. Eloise seems to know everything that was going to happen between 1977 and 2007 (she even knew how and when red-shoes guy was going to die). How did she gain all this information? Why doesn't she know what will happen next anymore?
2. Did/does Charles Widmore know as much as Eloise about the course of events that have been unfolding?
3. If I remember correctly, Daniel's journal contained not only information about his experiments and reasearch, it also contained other important information. For example, he knew what the "secondary protocol" was, and he knew some things about the Dharma Initiative (the Tempest and Orchid stations come to mind). This was before he arrived at the island via the freigher. But the journal, as he received it from Eloise, was presumably new and empty. So, where did he get his knowledge about the island from?
4. It's never been very clear to me: Why was Daniel asked (by Charles) to join the freighter team? Was his time/space knowledge needed to help locate the island and provide safe passage for those taking the helicopter trips?
5. Come to think of it, why were Charlotte or Frank specifically recruited for the mission? That's never been explicitly explained, has it?
6. Maybe I missed something, but I still don't know exactly why Daniel developed memory problems.
That's all for now, but I have more thoughts/questions for later.
I think whatever he'd been researching at Ann Arbor made him realize his mother was wrong.
That the 06 didn't need to come back to fix things.
Like they didn't need to come back to save the LBers.
Oops, 2costa, I see that some of your questions overlap mine, and that you have some possible answers to some of my questions. I need to type shorter posts!
something from ann arbor perhaps showed him that the jacksters didn't need to be there in 1977.
If dan was having time flashes and writing down stuff about the future in his journal and jack going to 1977 wasn't in there, then perhaps dan knew it was a variable attempt by hawking, a needless one because he was going to blow up the swan himself, the one piece he was missing was that he was going to get killed by his mother before he had a chance to blow up the swan. Jack and Kate will now be needed to make dan's plan a reality, since dan didn't know this, he thought they didn't need to get back. Sawyer and the rest didn't seem like they wanted to help dan and that might have been precisely the problem the first time this time loop played out without the jacksters in 1977. perhaps the time flashes and realizing his mom is who would kill him is what drove dan Mad?
I'm thinking that Eloise working with jack and kate is important, but I think the incident may be more important, she had to sacrifice dan in order to make sure the incident still happens. Like i said, there needs to be another insight into how widmore and maybe hawkings know about whats going to happen on the island after 2007, daniel doesnt account for that knowledge, but perhaps the incident with give them a glimpse into the future?
I'm thinking that although the incident may be catastrophic, they obviuosly contained it and not many died, it probably fried all the other's lady parts and thats why there's a fertility problem, maybe why widmore had to go off island to have another kid. The incident probably opened the barn door to Ben's plan to start letting more babies and outsiders into the others, starting with Alex.
The problem with Dan's theory is that although the 815'ers may be spared from crashing if he nuked the swan, the whole island would be destroyed and you would have alternate dimensions and in the one where 815 never crashed, the island would no longer exist, and everyone including the 815'ers may die forever. I know that he thinks that the island would retroactively be spared by the lack of people to blow it up, but i don't think it would work that way, in as linear a way as you can look at each individual time loop the island would be gone in dan's preferred outcome timeline. He cried when 815 still crashed because he took it as a sign his plan in 1977 failed although he hadn't done those things yet, i bet his timesickness gave him some foreknowledge.
dan is right that the people are the variables, hence the focus on free will on the island("i want you to want to save me jack"-ben), but i think that everything is "what happened, happened" for eloise until 2007, when ajira went back, then she finally has some new variables in the mix, perhaps not even jack and the gang, maybe locke and sun in 2007 or Ben linus himself. Which definitely makes me think that the info she gets from the incident was so important that she always knew she needed to sacrifice Dan to get to the incident and subsequently a 2007 where she doesn't "know" whats going to happen.
blueheron13 said:
1. Eloise seems to know everything that was going to happen between 1977 and 2007 (she even knew how and when red-shoes guy was going to die). How did she gain all this information? Why doesn't she know what will happen next anymore?Maybe because Daniel has been shot and killed in the past. She no longer has a connection. She seemed to think Des was a casualty. Maybe he was in the old time line.
3. If I remember correctly, Daniel's journal contained not only information about his experiments and reasearch, it also contained other important information. For example, he knew what the "secondary protocol" was, and he knew some things about the Dharma Initiative (the Tempest and Orchid stations come to mind). This was before he arrived at the island via the freigher. But the journal, as he received it from Eloise, was presumably new and empty. So, where did he get his knowledge about the island from?She gave him his journal sometime in the early 90s before he meets Des in '96. Maybe when he used his machine on himself (and we don't know how often he did, I think it was said Widmore paid for his reasearch for 10 years) he recorded his time traveling experiences.
5. Come to think of it, why were Charlotte or Frank specifically recruited for the mission? That's never been explicitly explained, has it?Charlotte I think was there to tell Locke how to find the Orchid if it wasn't there. "Find the well"
Frank I'm not sure about other than he was suppose to be the pilot on the original flight.
I wish I knew why it doesn't post my spacing when I use html tags.
Oh I think Dan's memory problems came from using his machine on himself.
I think that Dan thinks Ms. Hawking is wrong because they have different goals. Dan wants to STOP the Incident, thereby stopping the crash of 815, the arrival of the frieghter (and ultimately, Charlotte's death).
Ms. Hawking wants to make sure that things happen the way they are supposed to, which includes the Incident. That's why she's so broken up about Daniel's destiny - she knows that he has to die in order to keep things moving along. So, my guess is that after his death, Kate and Jack do something rash (go figure) which causes the Incident.
And memphish, I agree about the "will that make you proud of me?" scene. I just wanted to reach in and give Dan a big hug. I think it was also killing Ms. Hawking, though. She looked like she really wanted to say that she was already proud of him, but had to give him that final nudge to get him to go.
That scene was followed closely by the "you knew this would happen and you sent me back anyway" scene at the end on the heart-wrenching scale.
I also think that it's possible that Dan's notebook has some prewritten info in it from Mrs.H. 2costa. At first I thought that she had given him everything that he needed to know, to send him on the path that she wanted him to follow. But, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and the gift notebook could just be an empty one.
I'm checking out Dan's notes from some fuzzy screencaps, and so far I have seen "----- size of the universe at a -------- (-) is called the time scale factor..." Here is 'scale factor' as it pertains to the universe and time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_factor_(Universe)
If you follow the link to the Friedmann-Lemaitre-Robertson-Walker metric, some similar equations to Dan's can be found. I'll dig deeper on that later after I get back from shopping, unless someone else wants to run with it, or already knows something about this. :-)
Wow Memphish and Melissa, very good thoughts on things spoken between Dan and Eloise, I agree. It seems that at least for this episode, the shift has moved to some serious Mommy issues.
Well it is almost Mother's Day.
OK SO HERES THE DEAL . im sure my simplistic theory has a lot of flaws, but maybe it'll make sense to someone besides myself ..
we all know that eloise hawking is all about "what's supposed to happen" . i'm sure she was lying when she told penny that she didn't know what was going to happen - of course she knows .
if she knew that dan was going to go back and that they would run into each other in 1977, then her rationale for killing him is simple: if he dies, he can't detonate the bomb, the incident will happen, and oceanic 815 will crash as it did and the freighter will come and blah blah blah we know the story . killing dan will begin the chain of events leading up to what's "supposed to happen" .
.. maybe .
btw i didn't read the other comments before i posted this, so sorry if that was redundant .
Of course, the central question remains:
Why is Eloise (and possibly Widmore and others) so hell-bent on making sure that certain people stay on their "appointed" courses? What catastrophic event would happen otherwise? What is the thing that's "bigger than all of us"? Does it have anything to with the upcoming "war"?
Ending string of unanswerable questions...
I think it does have to do with the war.
I think they're trying to control the outcome.
I guess the central question becomes: What is the war about? "Control of the island" would be the obvious answer, but the true answer must go deeper than that.
Doc Jensen's recap is up, by the way.
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