On tonight's episode...
Locke takes on the burden to stop the island’s increasingly violent shifts through time. Meanwhile, Ben hits a roadblock in his attempt to reunite the Oceanic 6 and bring them back to the island.
Also, in the words of Daniel Dae Kim, Jin "goes through his own little 'excellent adventure.' Like Bill and Ted."
Most excellent, dudes.
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
This Place is Death - Season 5, Episode 5
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wow, that's a surprise!!! lol!
Why yes you are.
Just good timing:)
Dennis, if you're out there, let me know if you want me to stop doing these posts! I feel like I've taken over the shop.
So did Nadine pull a Cindy? Or did a smoke monster led spider get her?
email...
xxoo
Holy Toledo!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jin better tell them about the Udders too! :-o
Hi Ellen. xo!
Izzatt the temple?????? :-O
Hi everyone
That's what I was thinking too Cap
Whatta reunion!
Hi Ace! Smokey is sure smokin' tonight!
So sad and curious to see how the shootings went down with Danielle and co. :-(
Yeah Village!
Hi Capcom...that WAS the temple!
xxoo
Yay!
How can Sun shoot Ben, isn't he important to the island? I so wanted her to pull the trigger and have it go *click* like with Mike.
Klingon! heh...
xxoo
Is that what Robert said? It's a security system that guards the temple? My station has a weather warning up that's covering part of the subtitles.
Oh great, now we're supposed to NOT want them to go back at the same time as wanting them to go back?????
I think that my nose is bleeding. :-~o
So finally Charlotte has a use, and now she might die.
I really want to see Sayid kick Jack's butt.
There are some great pop culture references tonight -- Arrested Development, Austin Powers, Encino Man, Star Trek was mild.
Yes, that's what he said!!!
Those flashes are starting to give me a headache.
Yea Melissa, "It's not a monster, it's a security system guarding the temple."
So I wonder how Robert knows the ins and outs of Smokey security systems??????????
I think someone mentoned this last week, the flashes do seem to be alternating between day and night.
Add that to the black and white theme on Lostpedia
I'm starting to wonder if Ded could be right!? you know...that "p" word?!
xxoo
Changed my mind, there have been a few day flashes in a row...
I hope these flashes don't give me a migraine!
And now we have a Time Traveler's Wife!
Whoa.
Wow, this is awesome. Poor Charlotte.
And now we have to read that book, right Memphish? Or at least your posts about it!
So, I wonder who Charlotte's parents are?
well, that was sad :(
She's dead because they played the Life and Death music.
So if the reason you can't come back is because you'll die, do the O6 have to come back because they are sacrifices that the Island demands?
Boohoo. :-(
I covet the washer/dryer Kelly Ripa is shilling for.
Exactly what I was thinking Memphish! :-D
Oops, I mean about the music, not the washer/dryer. X-D
Oh bloody bollocks, CS!
Ben broke the FDW!
xxoo
Right Ellen!
I just wanna say that I am sooooo happy to be able to watch this with you all!
Oh man, I'm gonna screeeeeeeeam!
wow...that was good. I knew Eloise Hawking was Daniel's Mom...
xxoo
CANTON RAINER was the name on bens van i think
anagram anyone ?!?!!?!
CANTON RAINER was the name on bens van i think
anagram anyone ?!?!!?!
Wow...
Great episode...
Did you see Ben's face when Desmond asked if they were looking for Farraday's mother too???
Seems he doesn't know everything
The look on Desmond's face...priceless.
re-incarnation
memphish had that anagram the other day - reincarnation, I believe!
oh .
The last 10 minutes of that episode was great. And Christian Shephard is going to help me climb out of the basement of the LFL. :-)
So was Christian's death the sacrifice necessary to get them to the Island in the first place?
Good questions Memphish!
Wow, the preview was about enough to make me faint. We're gettin' answers!
I'd like to know what Locke and Ben talked about this time around.
And I have this thing to say....Kevin Dillon is adorable!!!! Funny and cute, my favorite kind. :o)
Seems like the whole Island is conspiring against Ben. There must be at least 8 sides in this thing. 8, like a Dharma symbol. Get it.
So do we think that the time jumping on Island will stop? Charlotte just couldn't hang on long enough? Or will the problems continue if you come back to the Island like Miles and presumably the O6. I'm thinking it's everyone's fate to die on the Island and then live forever on the Island like Christian. Or maybe like everyone we've seen as time skips. They are really and truly alive when we see them. The problem is that there are other times when they aren't, but then they don't know about those times.
wow, just wow... great episode
I couldn't be online because I was recording on the laptop
I had a weird feeling about the "p" word, too, ellen.. lol!
I have to say, nothing in this episode was a real big surprise... Anyone else feel that way?
Odd thought - Robert and the other guys in Danielle's crew were supposedly "different" after their encounter with the smoke monster. Did coming face to face with the monster change something in Locke, too?
That's a good question, melissa
I also like the question from capcom.. how did robert know about the security system for the temple?
In one of the quick flashes for next week, there is a closeup of a picture of Doubting Thomas examining Jesus' wounds...
Maybe symbolism for the current state of Kate, Hurley, & Sayid
The painting is 'The Incredulity of Saint Thomas by Caravaggio' - I looked it up
Good point Melissa, what WAS that all about?! Who thunk that it was gonna be Smokey that changed them?!
when Danielle is killing the rest of her team.. they didn't seem crazy, SHE did!
Ooooh, Caravaggio, interesting! Thanks Ace!
Danielle also called it a security system - I wonder what changed her mind?
acewebguy... good catch on the Doubting Thomas examining Jesus' wounds.. I would be doubting Locke is dead...
Yeahbutt, Robert shot at her first Blacky. Mabye she wasn't imagining it?
And you know that's been done in some good movies, where everyone thinks that everyone else is the sick nutjob and the audience doens't know till the very end of the movie who really is.
I got the weird feeling that the broken donkey wheel going back and forth like that was causing the flashes? Like every time it wiggled too much - flash!.. seems like the flashes were getting closer together tonight.
capcom, yeah.. no kidding.. that part freaked me out
I definitely want to watch that again!!
It was creepy how smokey seemed to mimic Montand's voice from the bottom of the hole. That reminded me of something... Michael Crighton's Sphere, maybe?
skweeds - I agree, a lot of the "shocks" in this episode were pretty easy to call.
The flashes were definitely coming from the donkey wheel. You can see it gearing up when Locke in on the rope.
My take on Danielle was that she went nuts when Jin disappeared right in front of her, then started killing her team writing it off as they had been changed by Smokey. I think everything we saw of Danielle in 2004 was her 16 years of guilt and in her coping mechanism she concocted her various versions of events all that omitted a disappearing Korean man. By the time the 815ers encounter her she believes all her own lies.
memphish said..
So do we think that the time jumping on Island will stop? Charlotte just couldn't hang on long enough?
That's what I was thinking.
Do you suppose they think they've covered Danielle's story now?
Interesting take on Danielle, memphish.. I'm not sure what to think yet..
I think they have pretty much covered Danielle's story. All that's missing is Ben taking Alex, but we've had a bit of exposition on that in the past.
ML, I thought Montand really was alive. It reminded me of the scene in Austin Powers where Dr. Evil dumps Will Farrell's character in the fiery furnace, but he doesn't die right away and keeps calling for help.
Been a long day - I'm off to bed. Good night!
melissa, the shock of montand's arm was crazy!
I want to remember which episode Danielle told her story .. anybody know?
good-night, melissa!
Okay, one more post. :)
I thought it was a fake-out - Jin seemed to think so too. Montand seemed awfully calm, considering smokey had just torn his arm off. He kept saying "help me, I'm hurt," which seemed like a MASSIVE understatement.
that's what I was thinking, memphish.. that we've gotten what we will with Danielle's story.
Black Swan - it was Sayid's first flashback episode, but I don't remember what it was called.
Ah, Sphere, that's the movie I was trying to think of, thanks! Yes, I agree.
Yeah, that's what I thought too when we saw the FDW jumping on its axis, wow, just really neat.
But what about Robert shooting at Danielle first????
Oh - I think it was Solitary.
Now I'm REALLY going to bed! :)
Thanks, melissa! That'll help. Now, good-night (again!) LOL!
G'nite Mellissa!
Sphere... I don't think I saw that..
Yeah, Robert shooting at Danielle first.. hmm I need to see if my recording worked.. brb
So if it was Smokey faking them out, why did they all come back? Did it change them? Did it tell them to tell Danielle it was a security system?
And why did Montand's arm make the jump? The bodies didn't in the next flash, and Jin wasn't holding it. I don't think it should have jumped, they just wanting a Fringe-worthy gross out shot.
Could they all have died except for Danielle and Smokey was making "fake" crew members like with CS, et.al, and Danielle was they only one alive?????? Just guessing here, I'm sure it's not that.
Their dilemma also reminds of Event Horizon kinda.
I don't know about your first question, memphish, but Montand's arm made the jump because it was with Jin. Maybe not holding it, but with him? Remember Juliet saying that the stuff they have with them makes the jump, too. And, yeah.. I was grossed out! lol!
Oh, good.. seems my recording worked!
Sun basically made a choice between Jin and Ji Yeon, didn't she? (and picked Jin)
"Sphere is a much better book than movie"?? Good to know Matt!. The movie kind of ticked me off.
Capcom said...
Could they all have died except for Danielle and Smokey was making "fake" crew members like with CS, et.al, and Danielle was they only one alive?????
hmm, I actually kinda like this..
Robert had a sinister look on his face when he pulled the trigger. It didn't seem to me like he was shooting Danielle because she was the crazy one. Although maybe he was just happy that she lowered the gun and he wasn't going to get eaten by flies like the others.
I love Crichton - I see a lot of him in Lost. It is nearly impossible for me to believe that Smokey isn't a cloud of nanobots like in the book "Prey". Sphere is a much better book than movie.
Hey, Matt.. bring your comment back! lol! It was a good one (from what I remember)
LOL! there it is!
I thought Robert had a sinister look on his face, too... gonna look for a screencap..
Thanks - I had to revise it to and i don't post much so I didn't know any other way but to delete it and repost
You did the right thing, then, Matt.
I just thought of something.. we still don't know why Charlotte speaks (oops, I mean spoke.. RIP) such fluent Korean, do we?
Poor Charlotte (and Rebecca M), no we don't know, you're right.
From what I remember she knew several languages. When she went to the desert to see the polar bear, her colleague asked how many languages she needed to read the news in to believe it. I got the impression that she was a borderline linguist.
I think you're right, Matt. I remember that scene with Charlotte knowing all the languages. And yes, Montand really turns to ugly-face after he appeals to Danielle not to shoot him .. he loves her.. their baby, then, wham! nasty face and determined to kill her. I got a screenshot, but can't get the best one..
I figure Charlotte knows Korean for her job.
Black Swan -- why would the arm jump, but not the tents in the Others camp in 1954, etc. So far the only things that have jumped have been attached to the LBs, not in their vicinity. Yes, I'm calling shenanigans on it again.
And for all my railing about Jin last week, I really enjoyed his story this week. I'm not crazy that Sun doesn't seem more concerned about Ji Yeon, yet. I liked that scene at the beginning. We've all been wondering after all.
The last scene, was, of course, totally anti-climatic. I think that's the problem with the episodes being produced so far ahead of airing and fan reaction. I hope the writers are listening now and will toughen things up towards the end of the season.
Trying to go to bed now. Really.
Good memory Matt! :-D
Ok, here's a couple screencaps. First, Montand's ugly face right before it gets even uglier and he lift's his rifle to shoot Danielle/a>
And, second.. Jin right after the flash where he leans down and apparently had his hand on THE ARM.. this shows him starting to get up when the flash is subsiding.. notice the ">where the arm is
hmm... well, the first one worked... gotta fix the second one..
And, second.. Jin right after the flash where he leans down and apparently had his hand on THE ARM.. this shows him starting to get up when the flash is subsiding.. notice where the arm is
Quick thoughts then off to bed...
I thought the arm jumped because that particular jump seemed to only be a day or two later because Danielle looked the same pregnant way (if that makes sense). So the arm would have just naturally been there decaying.
Also, I think Smokey killed Montand and then imitated him when he dragged him into the Temple because when he was saying 'help me', 'i'm hurt', I thought you could lightly hear the monster clicking/ticking.
acewebguy, I really think Jin leaned down and touched the arm when the flash happened. It's hard to get a screenshot, though, because they show him leaning down from far away and it's all washed out.
I like your second idea!
Oh, WTH.... 108!!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!
ace - i was thinking the same thing. Based on the beard growth (assuming they don't have razors) I was thinking it was a few weeks, maybe a month after the jump. The arm did seem to look a litte.....um....older when Jin touched it.
Way to go on the caps Blacky!
I second liking the second idea. :-)
Well, goodnite everyone, I'm gonna go watch it again in bed and then have some freaky dreams.
Can't wait to talk with Maven and everyone tomorrow! :-o
Here's a cap of Jin leaning down just as the flash starts and appears to lean on the arm
Good-night, capcom!
Yeah, actually it doesn't matter if Jin touched the arm or not because I agree, acewebguy.. that flash only took us a few days ahead.
On second watch - When they pull the arm off, montand has a blue and white striped shirt and his forearm is exposed. When they show a closeup of the arm on the ground, the skin is black and the shirt sleeve is tattered and heavily discolored. I don't remember if Rousseau gave a date of when she killed her team, but I am thinking that Jin didn't take the arm with him and he has "jumped" to about 4-6 weeks in the future.
Hmm, Matt. I'll have to watch again, but here's a cap of his arm after the flash
Just for fun, here's the entrance to Smokie's lair
Thanks for posting that Black Swan.
In "Solitary" Danielle says:
"Our vessel was 3 days out of Tahiti when our instruments malfunctioned. It was night, a storm, the sounds. The ship slammed into rocks, ran aground, the hull breached beyond repair. So, we made camp, dug out this temporary shelter. Temporary. Nearly 2 months we survived here, 2 months before --"
and then
"We were coming back from the Black Rock. It was them. They were the carriers"
Looks like they showed the first day they were there (November 18th, 1988) and then the day she killed them, 2 months later. Somewhere in between, they went to the black rock.
Unfortunately, I just realized that this means that they messed up the timeline. If she recorded the transmission 16 years and 5 months from when the losties heard it at the end of september in 2004, she would have had to record it in April of 1988..... 7 months before she got there. Oh well, everything can't be perfect. Better probably to not depend on the season 1 timeline too much.
Smokie actually wraps itself around his arm
Did everybody go to bed?
BEST LINE OF THE EPISODE
"Daniel....*sniff*..... I think that man was you"
Genius!!
Great researching, Matt! So, does the dead arm look about 2 months old? And maybe the timeline isn't screwed up, maybe the Island's time is screwed up!
Watching "The secrets of Lost" on Kimmel.. LOL (Michael Emerson.. wow!)
Yeah, Matt.. that was a great line! Do you think Faraday knew who she was all along? Do you think he doesn't age like Richard?
Dan's timeline is definitely the craziest on the show. I don't think he did know about Charlotte before hand. Although he was definitely trying to get her off the island in the Season 4 finale. Man, how confusing. The trick now is finding out if time is still skipping now that the record (wheel) isn't. If it isn't I wonder how Dan gets back to the Dharma years. No idea if he ages or not - I like to think that Richard is the only one that doesn't.
Matt, I'm so ready for a Daniel Faraday flashback!
you said..
The trick now is finding out if time is still skipping now that the record (wheel) isn't.
I tend to think the Island has stopped flashing. Jin is back with the rest of the left-behinders now and wasn't it poignant when Locke accepted what he had to do?
I'm confused about Christian taking over for Jacob, still. I think the first time we realize Christian has taken over is right after Charlie died and Hurley runs into the cabin in the dark? I wonder what Charlie dying or some other event around that time has to do with Jacob disappearing?
Hey, Gang: WOW...we got so much in this episode!
Okay, first thoughts:
Sun as sweet mother/killer. How can she not mention Ji Yeon when she says she wants to go back?
I do think we did get to see all of Danielle's story. But I don't understand what the sickness was. Robert didn't appear "sick". With so many flashes happening, I guess Jin only saw a month go by between the Temple and the Beach. And we did get confirmation that Smokey is a security system. How did Robert know that it was protecting the Temple. Is that the Temple that Richard and the Others were sent to by Ben?
Everyone...especially Dan and Miles...are surprised that Charlotte speaks
Korean. She did mention in Tunisia that she speaks a lot of language. I guess an Anthropologist learns languages as part of traveling around the world.
The flashes are getting more frequent. I guess it's because the FDW isn't frozen any more.
Is it possible that Charlotte is Annie? She says she left when she was 6, and left her Daddy behind. Now is Daniel her Daddy or is he Jacob...the scary man who tells her to never come back or else she'll die. The Jacob that we know does seem to be trapped in some dimension.
A lot of great lines in this episode: Miles: "He's Korean, I'm from Encino." (Which is about 15 min. from me) Charlotte mentions listening to Geronimo Jackson. When Juliet says it's amazing that they flashed to a point when the Orchid was still there, and then they flash and it's gone, Sawyer says "You just HAD to say something." And as Locke goes down the well "Expecting a subway?"
Awesome shot of Sawyer holding the rope leading into the ground.
Mrs. Hawking (and Ben) seemed to constantly say all the O6 have to go back. Now that there's only Sun and Jack, she seems like that's okay. Christian also says they all must come back. I guess that will play out soon.
Interesting that Locke leaves the island unable to walk, just like when he arrived.
It's also interesting that the jumps seems to take our LBers to very important events on the island. Is there a pre-destined reason for what year they jump to? For example: Locke getting to go down the well...learning that there's Jughead buried somewhere on the island...finding the Temple.
Hello everyone, I'm new here. I've read with great interest what everyone had to say. Good thoughts.
First,someone said in the show that people who were not having nose bleeds had been on the island the longest. Faraday and Locke hav not had nose bleeds.
The fact that Charlotte says she left the island when she was a girl and that a "man" told her to never come back indicates to me that Faraday is definitely ageless, just like Richard. Charlotte and Daniel appear to be about the same age now, so if Daniel was a man when she was a girl, he's not aging. We know that his mother is a big shot on the island somehow, I think Faraday and his mother are both part of Richards group, which is also ?Jacobs? group. I have heard that Christian Shepherd is "Jacob". Not sure about that, but he seems to be in charge now.
It's interesting to me that Desmond was the first time traveler. I know he is definitely really important to the island somehow. I think we will see more of that soon.
Also, I think that Danielle was just defending herself. I have heard that the smoke monster only kills bad people, not sure if I agree with that either. I know Eco wouldn't "repent" and that is supposedly why he was killed, but I have never understood why smokie was trying to drag Locke in....especially if he's the islands "chosen" one...another unanswered question for me. Also, why is it necessary for all the "leaders" of the island to kill their fathers? (Ben, Locke)? What is that all about. Another thought that just came to me....Locke is having other people do what is expected of him and it has screwed things up (Ben moving the island), and he also had Sawyer kill his father...I wonder if there will be a consequence because of that?
Another question I have is when it first shows the french on the island at the beach, the one guy is holding what appears to be a radio, and I heard the numbers being called out...how was that happening?
It's clear that Danielle is defending herself. We all have assumed that the "illness" her crew got was physical. I am now convinced that she was referring to "mental" illness from being taken into the hole by the smoke monster.
LOL Over a year ago I ordered a "Geronimo Jackson" T-shirt from offline...big mistake. I don't have any 4 yr. olds to give it to, and I ordered a size large! Really wanted to wear it. I know that will come into play later on in the show, they bring it up now and then. Isn't it supposed to be a band that Sawyer was in? That's another rumor I have heard.
Thanks for the screencaps Black Swan. I feel so much better that Jin was touching the arm. As crazy as the editing of those flashes was getting it certainly was hard to keep up with.
As for the length of time the French transmission ran not quite adding up, remember that Sayid was estimating the length of the loop and doing math in his head. I'm willing to accept that Sayid was a bit off. I much more trust lucid pre-Smokey Danielle's statement it was Nov. 15, 1988.
I'm hearing the idea that coming in contact with Smokey turns you into part of the Island's security system. And who else has touched Smokey? Locke.
I'm still not sure about the whole "sickness" thing. It seemed to clearly be one of perception on Danielle's part that the people had changed. But I'm still not sure who changed, them or Rousseau. I think in the end it doesn't really matter.
beachloverextreme, if i remember correctly, Danielle told Sayid that originally the radio tower was playing a message repeating the numbers over and over again. She then recorded her distress message over it and that's what Shannon translated.
I still don't think the arm jumped with Jin because if it did, wouldn't the arm still be "fresh" (maybe even still bloody)?
Because the next time we see the arm it is so decayed I thin it is 1-2 months later like Matt and Black Swan said.
I can go either way with the arm since he only flashed a few weeks.
A few more notes.
I noticed that Robert was the Jack of the French group, at least before going in the CV. He basically said live together, die alone.
I still don't get why Danielle didn't remember Jin.
Ben's temper tantrum was pretty pathetic.
How did Charlotte know about the well if she was there in the DI days? Especially given the "secret" nature of the Orchid? Did crazy man Daniel tell the young Charlotte?
I'm still unclear about what version of Daniel warned young Charlotte. Are we going to continue to see the LBs jump and see current Daniel warn her, or was Daniel jumping from Oxford?
Good morning,
when robert explained what smokey was my first thought was that he had already been sent to room 23.
once charlotte started talking i knew she was going to die.
daniel being ageless could explain the skinny ties.
black swan 1st and 108 --impressive
sawyer and jin reunion made me smile. he even called him by his name.
i think i like the island story better than the o6 story.
didnt ben need to take Locke with him to meet ms hawking, isnt he still with jill the butcher
one last thought before getting back to work. do you think ben knew he was not suppose to turn the fdw? when chrisiatn tells locke i told you to do it. kind of gives me the vibe that Locke has totally messed up a lot of things and is probably not the leader he thinks he is. and that ben was again the master manipulator.
Bigdog, I think Ben was out of the loop on that one. I think Ben viewed everything from his tumor on as the Island's way of telling him to skedaddle, so he decided that Locke's lack of knowledge on how to move the Island was the go ahead for Ben to move it. Of course, the fact that Locke didn't tell Ben that hey, it wasn't Jacob, but a guy that spoke for Jacob didn't help matters either.
Matt said: "Better probably to not depend on the season 1 timeline too much." Heheh, wise words that we may have to adhere to, to keep ourselves from getting the sickness ourselves from trying to piece it all together! But I agree with Memphish that we shoudn't hang too much on Sayid's calculatins.
Great screencaps Blacky!
My main question about Sun is, if Locke said that she wasn't supposed to leave, does that mean that she and JiYeon were supposed to die? :-o
Didn't Charlotte speak Korean in front of us before? Like when she found out that Dan had a cursh on her and Jin caught her understanding what they said in Korean?
Maven said:"Is there a pre-destined reason for what year they jump to?" Probably there is because TPTB know that we'll string 'em alive if they don't show us these important points in island time! :o)
Welcome Beachlover! Good points! Sorry about your T-shirt tho, but you could do something like cut out the image and sew it onto something else maybe. Or frame it? :-D
I liked Ben's tantrum, I thought that it was well needed! Somebody needs to yell at Jack! In fact, I had to pull over after picking up my oldest nephew to do just about the same thing when he was getting b*tchy on me. :-o Deja vu.
I like the island story better too, Bigdog! It's been a long time coming.
I wondered that too Bigdog, after something that someone said last night. I certainly wouldn't put it past Mr.Benipulator to take one last advantage of the island and high-tail it out before everything went to heckinahandbasket.
Great episode!! whoo hoo!!
some observations (long post warning!):
Montand's arm did NOT jump with Jin, I agree. It definitely showed decay. Jin jumped ahead several weeks, maybe as much as 8 (one of the numbers? Are the flashes jumping in values of the numbers? hmmm...Kate delivered Aaron 8 weeks ago...Rousseau's group arrived 16 years ago...hmmm!).
Speaking of flashes...the FDW isn't F anymore...heh heh...Ben broke the donkey wheel! OMG I think the flashes are happening because of the wheel's jiggling back and forth. Hey, does that mean you get a different result if you push the wheel in different directions? Or does it only work in one direction?
Christian doesn't like Ben. Locke has to clean up Ben's mess. Ironic.
Locke and Daniel haven't had nosebleeds. Is that because they found their constants? Why couldn't Daniel be Charlotte's constant, since she remembered him from her childhood? And why didn't Daniel give her a constant, since obviously when he warned her about coming back to the Island he already knew about constants? Bah..don't tell me that he can't change her death because it already happened.
I think he's going to jump around on the Island, maybe so is everyone else, and they all infiltrate the DI. Perhaps Locke's efforts have now settled the Donkey Wheel, and they will land in the DI days, become Hostiles, and Daniel can infiltrate the DI long enough to warn Charlotte. OMG will Charlotte meet and play with young Benjamin and Annie? Did I hear her make a reference to Apollo chocolate?
Last point...maybe Danielle didn't remember Jin because she didn't see him for long to begin with. They found him floating in the water, fought Smokey together, and then he disappeared in front of her. Two months or so later he briefly reappeared when she shot Robert. Over the next 16 years she probably saw her dead teammates appear to her from time to time, so maybe she chalked up Jin as another figment of her imagination. She is the CRAZY french chick, after all! lol
Seriously, she was defending herself from Robert (he was definitely going to shoot her, but his gun went "click" like Michael's...so the Island protected Danielle?).
Enough! wow there certainly was a lot to digest in this episode, wasn't there?
I was thinking that too about the numbers Amused, but we can't calculate it with the editing and all, unless TPTB specifically tell us that it is. :-(
Yeah, great idea about which way the FDW jiggled determining which way the time jumped.
And yes, why couldn't Dan have been Char's constant? I didn't get that, unless mental travel is different from physical travel and a constant won't work for that.
We need to confirm exactly if and how much Old Danielle actually saw Jin in 2004. If not much at all, there wouldn't be a problem with her not recognizing him. Or, she just figured that this new young Korean surely couldn't be the same one. ???
I'm still don't like this faster format. So far this season we haven't gotten any stories were just jumping around in time to get a few answers. I hope sometime we get full stories instead of jumping around getting bits and pieces.
We didn't get to much new about Danielle we knew she killed her party and that Robert tried to kill her but she had taken out the firing pin. And personally smokey ripping off Montand's arm was a let down for me. I did like that it was Jin that saved Danielle from smokey though. I'm wondering if smokey killed them all at the temple and appeared to Danielle in their form like it did to Eko as his brother.
She didn't seem to think Robert was himself. And it would explain how Robert knew it was a security system. But not how Danielle could kill it.
The temple appears to be underground. Is this why it keeps the "others" safe?
I had a feeling Ben wasn't suppose to turn the wheel. I was acutally talking about that with my sister the other day. That we didn't see what Christain said, that maybe Ben wasn't suppose to turn the wheel.
Well it looks like whe have another person with daddy issues, Charlotte. Do you think she was looking for her father?
So does anyone else think Ben may have killed Locke?
Also Daniel didn't seem to think bringing the O6 back would help with the time jumps.
I always thought them going back was more about Ben, or now at least the island since Richard and Christian want them back too. Not the the time jumps.
And the look on Desmond's face when he heard the name Eloise and then seen who it was, was priceless.
If they send him back and he doesn't get to tell Penny I'm going to be so mad.
That's all I can think of right now and this post is long enough.
Yes, Christian did tell Locke that the wheel was off it's axel or something like that...implying that it was broken. And it was wiggling around a lot.
I like the idea that Daniel is like Richard...an ageless wonderboy. We have never seen either one in any other stage of their life (just in horrible hairstyles).
I think Charlotte being Annie might just work out. She was 6 when she left the island and would remember a lot. If Charlotte is in her mid-20's she could have been 6 right before the Purge. And when Daniel confessed his love for Charlotte to Richard, maybe it was a father's love for his daughter? Daddy Daniel could have warned her Mother to get her off the island before the Purge. With Hawkings as Daniel's mother, that just might make him a VIP on the island.
Right now, we really don't know what the sickness is with Rousseau's group. She can either be imagining something, or contact with Smokey changed some people. Robert did seem like he almost had a glazed expression trying to talk to her. And why would he try to kill his pregnant love if he wasn't a bit crazy or possessed? Danielle had a mother's instinct that point.
I also like the idea that the numbers figures somehow to how many years the island is skipping around. I don't know how 1954 fits into it, though.
Welcome, to beachloverextreme.
Also, Ben has not told Sun that if you go back, you can never return to the real world like he told Jack (when he told him to pack a suitcase with everything that is important to him). So maybe Sun thinks: Okay, I'll go along with crazy Ben to reunite with Jin (can you imagine that scene when she puts the ring back on his finger?), and then we'll leave the island and I'll show him Ji Yeon. Wait until she realizes she can't go home again!
oh, yeah,I forgot you guys are right the Danielle's timeline is messed up. I don't know if it's an accident. Or if it's suppose to be that way.
Maybe to show how time is different on the island. I don't know but it's wrong.
amused
LOL The first thing I thought of when she said chocolate was Apollo bars.
the frozen donkey wheel not being frozen was why i was saying that jughead was a cryogenic bomb, maybe?
Interesting that jin was holding the arm and it was decayed upon arrival in the slight future, objects like the compass, it wasn't obvious that they were aging upon flashes, but i don't see how jin touching it was important, because the flash seemed to only be slightly in the future. The temple being visible in the near future, i chocked up to the french going in the hole and somehow making it visible.
I wonder why smokey kills some, but chooses others to wench down in its hole and how things might have been different if they didn't save Locke when smokey was dragging him and they dropped dynamite in smokey's hole?
If you watch the season finale, when Ben turns the wheel and the very first flash starts, Richard is reacting to the flash, with squinty eyes and such just as much as Locke is, but in the past Richard is oblivious to the flash when it's happening. That point was reaffirmed this week when Danielle didn't feel the flash when jin was leaving and asked him what he was reacting too. Seems to me this is solid proof that the lb's are still on the present day island no matter what the time period looks like. I also think the donkey wheel is the only thing that is static with the lb's and in the present and perhaps the temple, maybe the temple is where richard avoids the flashes. I wonder if Locke stopped the flashes for now or if the lb's will be stuck in whatever flash of the island they were in atm.
I think Faraday's mother being hawkings may or may not have been what surprised Ben, i tend to think that Desmond knowing this fact is what freaked out Ben, because this is one of the first actual changes Ben has seen in his endless loop of a time line, because of Faraday's visit to the swan. Some might think that Faraday waiting for things to change from his message to Desmond doesn't make sense because changes would happen right away. Think back to what i said earlier, if the island is moving parallel to off island time in the present, then dan will have to wait a few days for desmond to actually reach his mom for changes to take place.
I think what i said before about the o6 not being the cause of the flashes or the cure seems to jive with what faraday said about stopping the flashes should be possible in the orchid, because thats why it and where it started, but bringing back the o6 is off the scientific chart. Hawkings seeming to be ready to go with " the best we could do for now" instead of the o6 in their entirety seems to show they will work with what they have. i feel they have a task to do once they get there, i also think Locke may have an existence like christian on the island when they bring his body back, a lot like a ghost like the fact that christian couldn't help Locke get up, which reminded me of how Locke had to claw up the escalator in his sweat house dream
It was thought that The Numbers' significance in the skipping might be how often they skipped, not the years between skips. At least that's what I was wondering. Sometimes it's a cluster of short spurts (4,8,15, 16) and then longer periods (23,42,108). But it's probably not that tho.
Wasn't Annie 10 like Ben before the Purge?
As far as I know Charlotte didn't return to the island again as a child.
BTW where are you guys getting Charlotte was 6 when she left the island? All I heard was she grew up on the island and left with her mom and never seen her dad again.
Sayid'sgirl: I thought that was what Charlotte said. I'll have to listen more carefully on the rewatch.
Here's something interesting: Remember that Darlton said that hieroglyphics on the Swan countdown clock translated to Underworld? At a quick glance those same hieroglyphics seemed to be on the Temple (as well as the door in Ben's secret room). And it seems that the Temple does have an underground (or underworld) feel to it. There seems to be a lot of stuff happening under the island, especially when Locke went down the well...
Good points 2costa.
I'm not too informed on cryogenic bombs, but as far as I understand (which isn't very far!) they only contain an amount of liquid hydrogen which is used as the fuel for the hydrogen fusion process. ???? Not enough LH2 to freeze a cave for years. But, TPTB can say and do anything they want with their bomb I guess. :o)
I thought you could eat as many Apollo bars as you wanted. Why was Charlotte's mom so hard on her?
Annie and Ben should be about the same age. The Purge didn't occur until Ben had grown up to workman age, whenever that was exactly. I'm still holding out for it being before 1988.
That reminds me, I won't get a chance to update my timeline until next Tuesday. Not that I think we got any more this week than we had last week, except for the actual Nov. 15th date.
What if Robert was right about the Temple and the smoke monster just being a security system and that is indeed why the Others went there?
Good point Memphish, go hide from the bad guys with your guard-dog! :-)
Too bad Charlotte didn't remember a baby Miles. I also wonder if her mother believed the crazy man that Charlotte herself did not believe. Is that why she left with Charlotte? In fact I'm wondering if we're going to see the Comic Con video being made in the show or if that's already happened.
Surely there's some literary work where children are told that their memories are make believe only to later discover they are from a magical place. Any ideas readers?
Sorry for all the posts, but I'll be off line most of the rest of the weekend. When Christian tells Ben all the people who left need to come back, does that include Frank? What about Walt? And what about Ji Yeon?
As someone said, if Sun had stayed she presumably would have died. I'm still fearful that those who left need to return in order to die.
I've read most of the comments but don't know if I'll be able to keep up today. So I'll just post what I've been thinking so far:
re: Danielle's story- I agree with most of you that I do not understand the whole sickness part of the story. If Robert saw Smokey and/or WAS smokey when Danielle shot him, then why couldn't he have shot Danielle first? In other words, Smokey (to me) would be part of the island-security-preservation-Jacob team, so why would destiny, so to speak, not allow him to shoot Danielle first? It seems like the island/Smokey would trump whatever action Danielle would take. I hope that makes sense.
re: Montand's arm- I agree with those saying that the arm jumped because that's where it was left and that the second time we see it it was decayed. But of course it was before Vincent found it and carried it through the jungle. Wonder if Chang/Wickman/Halliwax/Candle lost his arm the same way?
re: Charlotte and Annie- I would have to go back and listen again, but I think Charlotte mentions Annie when she's flashing back and forth. Like they were friends. So I don't think Charlotte is Annie, but I think she knew Annie.
As much as I disliked Charlotte, I was a little sad when she died. Probably because of Rebecca Mader's and Dan's (what's his face- can't remember his real name) acting job which I thought was so good.
And I also don't understand why Dan couldn't be Charlotte's constant, doesn't make sense...yet.
Ok so they are really making it seem like Ben is really the bad guy here. So does it matter that the O6 actually left? Are the flashes and bad things happening because Ben broke the FDW and he knew this, but is just manipulating everyone on such a large scale to get them all back- eventually getting himself back in power? So are the O6 really in danger by going back or is it necessary? Again, this all goes back to who is on whose side, what is really going on here? Dan is funded by Widmore, but is looking to Hawking for help. Hawking didn't like Widmore when she knew him in 1954 (making big assumption here that she was Ellie) and is working with Ben now. The only O6 trusting Ben is Jack. Everyone else wants Ben dead. Christian told Locke that listening to Ben gets him in trouble, yet tells him the same thing Ben did about Locke having to die/sacrifice himself. I'm so confused....so I will go on to things that made me laugh.
-the look on Jin's face when Sawyer tried to explain the time jumps
-the look on Ben's face when he learned that Hawking was Dan's mom
-the van scene/Ben's tantrum- honestly I laughed out loud at that because I've had the same EXACT thing happen with me and the kids in the car! And I've said the same kind of things to my kids- "if you only knew all that I do for you, you would never stop thanking me!" LOL that's my life!
Ok and that made me think of one more thing. Could Hawking be playing Ben? The look on his face when he found out she was Dan's mom was a little troubling. I wonder if she's a double agent? so to speak?
I agree with this sentiment from Alan Sepinwall.
• How large of a fillet knife am I going to need to take care of Lindelof and/or Cuse if the series ends with Ji Yeon and little Charlie both orphaned, or at least permanently separated from their parents?
LOL memphish...
note to self- start collecting tar and feathers....
Oh wow, was that supposed to be Montand's arm that Vincent found? That totally went over my head at the time! :-o
Sun telling JiYeon that she would be having a little friend sure seemed like a set-up of some sort.
Oh and I didn't realize the carpet van name anagramed into reincarnation. Well who the heck is the reincarnation of who? Locke the reincarnation of Jacob? wha.....?
Scoutpost: LOL re Ben's tantrum...I think we all had one with our kids. Settle down back there! You don't appreciate what I do for you! LOL
Also, I think Vincent's "arm" was from Ben's father in the Dharma van. There seems to be an abundance of arms on the island!
Agreed that maybe the island is thinking Ben is the bad guy. Richard said Ben went off-track and spent much to much time and effort on the fertility issues. Now he went and broke the FDW! Maybe getting all the O6 back (plus himself) is a way to right the wrongs and get in the good graces of the island again.
I think that that arm was Roger Linus' because it was holding the key to the Dharma van.
Yes, re: missing arms, I'm wondering if that's a red herring of sorts, since there are so many, and not all of them seem to be able to have been lost in the same manner.
maven said...There seems to be an abundance of arms on the island!
Yes, but a shortage of toes!
shortage of toes - LOL
if charlotte is annie, why would ben shoot her without thought? that was his childhood sweetheart.
LOL, so it's come to this (after all these great comments): that there is an abundance of arms and a shortage of toes!! ROFL!!!
bigdog, thanks for recognizing I was first and 108th comment - LOL, I was amazed and pleased!!
Amused2bHere said..
"I think he's going to jump around on the Island, maybe so is everyone else, and they all infiltrate the DI. Perhaps Locke's efforts have now settled the Donkey Wheel, and they will land in the DI days, become Hostiles, and Daniel can infiltrate the DI long enough to warn Charlotte. OMG will Charlotte meet and play with young Benjamin and Annie? Did I hear her make a reference to Apollo chocolate?"
I love these ideas!
sayid'sgirl said...
"Well it looks like whe have another person with daddy issues, Charlotte. Do you think she was looking for her father?"
Hey, maybe Horace Goodspeed is Charlotte's father and he told his wife to take their little girl and get out of there because he knew the purge would happen or had an inkling about Ben? Horace was building the cabin for his family to get away from the DI sometimes. Did he know Daniel and his experiments with time-travel?
I was thinking back about Smokie. Locke was being pulled by smokie (a white smokie) and said what he saw was beautiful, right? Did he get visions of the temple? Was he 'supposed to' go straight to the temple from the very start? Is there a white smokie to pull ppl to the temple and a black smokie to get rid of those who shouldn't go to the temple.. black/white.. Did the temple/security black smokie kill Eco because it knew that Eco would somehow put Locke's life in danger?
idk.. so many thoughts in my mind and I haven't re-watched yet.. lol!
I'm really looking forward to the transcript to try to parse out all the things Charlotte said, but Lostpedia has let me down. It's not up yet.
Have a great weekend LoCos. I'm sure I'll be unable to restrain myself from chiming in on the road, so until then. :-)
memphish, have a good time.. you'll be missed!
2costa said..
I think Faraday's mother being hawkings may or may not have been what surprised Ben, i tend to think that Desmond knowing this fact is what freaked out Ben, because this is one of the first actual changes Ben has seen in his endless loop of a time line, because of Faraday's visit to the swan.
I like this!!
See you on the flipside of your travels Memphish!
Hello again, I'm back from a busy week off of LOST commentary.
-Who imparted knowledge of Smokey unto Danielle's team? What happened that convinced at least Robert, if not the others, to attack Danielle?
-How exactly is Faraday going to end up in the midst of DHARMA if Locke fixed the broken wheel (skipping record)?
-Where will Locke end up?
-Ironic that Ben tells Danielle and Alex to go to the place where Danielle lost all of her friends, but then tells Alex that it's "only for us." What does Ben think/know will happen if they had gotten there safely?
On first watch, I got the impression that Robert's stay in the Temple had turned him into an official "Other".
Two possible reasons for him to want to shoot Danielle:
1. In his mind at that time, she was a "bad" person?
2. Self defense. Maybe he saw her shoot the two other team members and knew she was crazy and a threat to him.
I don't believe that Daniel is ageless. He's the son of Eloise Hawking, and if she is indeed "Ellie", we know that she ages normally. So I don't think Daniel would be special. There is something about Richard that makes me think he is in class by himself with regard to age.
If Daniel is indeed aging normally, and if it's true you can't really change the past/future, then it's now Daniel's destiny to somehow arrive in the 1970's, infiltrate the DHARMA Initiative, and eventually meet Young Charlotte and tell her never to come back to the island.
If this is true, then the opening montage for this season could actually be a preview of what's to come on the show.
True Blueheron about Robt becomming an Other. Maybe the same way Cindy did? But we don't understand, cuz it's "complicated".
Robert's behavior is really confusing to me. Because I think if he was acting on behalf of Smokey/the island, then his gun wouldn't have failed. Unless destiny trumps Smokey/the island's will, and assuming Smokey and the island are on the same page.
HOw is it that turning the DW magically transports someone to another time/space?
I like 2costa's idea too- that Ben's surprise was not necessarily over the revelation that Hawkings was Dan's mom, but rather that Dan had contacted Des at the Swan and made a change in the timeloop.
Someone mentioned that Faraday is ageless since he is not getting the nosebleeds. More likely to me is Faraday isn't affected by the time shifts because he went to Desmond at the hatch. Desmond is Faraday's constant. Once Faraday established contact with his constant he became immune to the hemoraging.
Hey, so if Dan told Charlotte not to go back, and she did, I guess he really knows that you can't change the future.
Scoutpost,
I think back in Season 1, Danielle said she removed the firing pin from Robert's gun (just like she did with Sayid's gun).
About constants,
Remember that we have seen two different types of time travel--consciousness and physical.
We know that having a constant stops the consciousness type of time travel, but we don't know if there is anything--a constant or otherwise--that would save someone from the effects of the physical time travel we've seen this season. In other words, constants might not apply at all when you're physically jumping around to different points in the island's history, as opposed to mentally jumping around to different points on your owwn timeline.
It's safe to say that the nosebleed symptom is the same, though, even if we don't know if the cure is the same.
Hey everyone,
about 1/2 way through the comments. been lurking the last few weeks. Couple things I wanted to wiegh in on. Good disucssions!
1. The arm: The arm was present after Jin flashed because it was only two months forward in time. You really didnt need to go back and rewatch Danielle's old epi's to figure that out. a) it fits with the timeline of the flash b) it was fresh when ripped of, now the clothes tatered and skin crusted. To me it is extremely obvious they were trying to paint the picture that Jin had only skipped forward in time a short time, which was confirmed minutes later by the beach scene with Danielle. My opion at least.
2. As usual Locke is is the eternal con. I say this a lot in this forus over the years. Locke is so gullable he has believed every single thing anyone has ever pitched him, including Ben. Was awesome to see Christian back hand him with the obvious when he said listening to Ben has never done him any god. Awesome.
3. Smokey: Interesting items exposed for the first time with Smokey. a) the temple - you know, the temple that Ben told Richard to take his people to in the S3 finale. As far as I recall we have never seen that before. I'm sure that place holds a huge signiicance to the whole story.
b) possible place that smokey hides. We have seen him go underground beofre with Locke, but could his home be the Temple also. And does he truly protect it? Consistent that Danielle called Smokey a secuirty system in S1 and we now learn that she got that from her friends who jumped in smokey's hole.
4. Dying for a Korean translation for what Charlotte said to Jin before telling him not to bring Sun back in English. Had to be more to it than what was translated to English.
5. The con: Interesting that Ben didn't know Elle was Faraday's mom. At least thats the read I took from the ending scene. Ben knows everything. We know Widmore and Elle were on the island at the same time, are they are in cahoots? Pulling a con on Ben. Will be great to see where this goes. I expect some theatrics as Ben will have to adjust his plan without tipping his hat that he knows.
Anyway, some intial thoughts for now. Comments seem really low for this type of episode. Lot's to discuss in this one.
Will I like it?
Bid Dog,
Intersting comment on the Frenshies going to room 23. Would make sense.
DD,
Do you think Christian is taking advantage or conning Locke in some way now?
Lost2010,
I thought it was a great episode. Lots of mythology pieces are starting to fall into place. The only thing is that I'm starting to miss the traditional format of the traditional, "centric" episode that focuses on character development and filling in missing pieces one person at a time.
Yeah, I miss that too. But I guess they could only do that for so long anyway. Here goes.
Ah Blueheron- thanks, I do think Danielle had removed the firing pin. phew.
DD- I was wondering too, if Ben is not as centric as he thinks he is. Perhaps he is just a pawn and the real puppet masters are Hawkings and Widmore.
Also re: Smokey- don't forget Ben went underground into his cave thing and somehow summoned Smokey after Alex was killed. But new Otherton was not near the Temple, so I wonder how that all works?
The Blast Door Map mentions a number of "cerberus vents", so I'm guessing there is some kind of subterranean network Smokey can travel through.
forgot to mention the temple Heiroglyph's. (sure I murdered the spelling on that) Dying to know what those mean!
RE: Danielle shooting Robert. Not sure if someone mentioned this, but didn't Sayid ude the same gun to try to shoot Danielle that Robert did, and didn't Danielle elude that Robert didnt see that something was missing from the gun when he tried to shoot her. Would have to go back and check but pretty sure this was in season 1.
finished with comments now, great stuff.
Hey Blue,
I'm not quite sure what to make of Christian. If anything he seems like a messenger for the island or for Jacob to me. My feeling would be initially the island wanted Locke to turn the wheel, but Ben wasn't having it, so he did it to change the plan.
I think the island or jacob sent Richard to correct the mistake.
or he could be a con to get Locke to more bidding. You could be right on and it would fit well. I have to believe at some point locke will get something right and stop the bleeding. It's just nuts how many cons he has fallen for in 5 years of this show.
Great discussions as always.
The look on Kate's face when Ben said "but he isn't your son" Priceless.
So, Locke was supposed to turn the wheel, not Ben. Mmmmmm. Could the outcome have been different if Locke turned it?
good ctach Blue on the blast door maps. That's why I think comments have been decreasing on the site over the weeks. Everytime you think you have something nailed, you realize you forgot to analyze something else that is part of the story.
Now I really want to know what those pictures on the temple mean? It has to have a huge significance to the story. Only the special people can go there :)
A lot of things seem to be happening underground now...especially going down the well and the DW (not Frozen anymore). The hieroglyphics in the countdown clock was said to mean "underworld". Maybe the hieroglyphics mean the same thing on the Temple and Ben's secret door.
maven... maybe they mean "enter at your own risk" hehehe
Huh. Well. . .huh. . . so.. .. huh. . .
Well, from over here in the shallow end of the pool where the thinking isn't nearly as deep.
I'm extremely ticked that I still do not know what the dad-blamed sickness was. . .other than monster-possession I suppose. . .
I think Sawyer's going to have a complete nervous breakdown if Jin disappears too. . .
And my LFL team is going to have SUCH a good week. I have Christian and JiYeon, and I've been waiting for them to show up forever.
has anyone seen the Korean translation (what Charolette said to Jin in Korean beofre she said not to bring Sun back) or the temple pictures translated on DarkUfo or other sites. I find it strange that this has not been completed yet :)
Okay, having mulled a bit. Here's a slightly deeper thought.
Did Locke tighten that wheel up just enough that the left behinders just might get stranded in Dharmaland without flashing for long enough for Daniel to enact his 'interfering with the prime directive' plan? Will they stay put not necessarily permanently but for a little while at least - wherever Locke just sent them?
Did Locke just send them to the time where Daniel meets Charlotte? Is it 'our' Daniel that meets a younger Charlotte and because he was in love with her older self - can't stop himself from breaking his own rules?
Sorta like The Time Traveler's Wife that was mentioned above, now that I think about it. . .
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